Glasgow City Council have approved a £120m plan by former Celtic director Willie Haughey to redevelop a gap site near to his birthplace. The ambitious plan involves the creation of a 60 bedroom hotel, 600 homes and office space at a site near to the Gorbals.

The council estimates that the proposals will create 2,000 jobs in what is officially being described as a vibrant quarter.

A related plan to demolish two tower blocks in the area and build almost 1,800 homes were also approved. The Laurieston Development Strategy will see the demolition of the two high-rise blocks at Stirlingfaulds Place in the coming months. Follow-up work on the construction of the new homes is expected to begin early next year. Retail, commercial and community facilities will also be built in the surrounding area.

It is hoped that the proposals will complete the full regeneration of the Gorbals area, once one of the most deprived housing areas in the city.

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Photo shows The Gorbals: one of the last tenements in front of the type of high flats to be demolished.

GG.

Just imagine the grand place the Gorbals would still be if they had simply sandblasted those beautiful old tenements and modernised them inside. They threw the baby out with the bathwater as usual.
Worst of all they destroyed the wonderful community which lived there but what's new eh.

Couldn't agree more, Melody...even as it now stands, the old tenement in the picture is in a different class to the boxes behind it..

Absolutely Java, imagine thinking that people with young families would be happy living in filing cabinets. Never mind the fact that they are such eyesores.

Yes. I can remember the filth, squallor, degredation, poverty, drunkenness, crime and abuse that went with the Gorbals. As to why the "City Fathers" were never jailed for allowing humans to live in such conditions is a cause for question.

In all honesty I cannot imagine as to why anyone would want to perpetuate such inhuman horrors as was inflicted on those poor peoples. For make no mistakes. The Gorbals were a blight on society and the unfortunates who were forced by circumstances way beyond their control had little or no say about how they had to live. But to remove those unfortunates from the vermin ridden slums and stick them into tall boxes without character was just as evil as leaving the Gorbals standing. I cannot help but ask the question would the corporation have moved it's lethargic body to help alleviate the misery of the people from the Gorbals had not the world found out about Glasgows shame

Oh my Glenafton, you have insulted some very wonderful and proud people, me for instance and my family. I was brought up on Crown Street in the Gorbals during the 40s and 50s. We were NOT, I repeat NOT vermin infested. Our home was immaculate and my sister and I were kept immaculate. My upbringing in the Gorbals was one of joy. At no time did I feel uncomfortable about my surroundings or did I feel afraid to walk on the street. Were you brought up in a two beedroom, with an inside toilet? I was..... I hope you did not intend to insult some very hard working people. By the way, my schooling was also received in the Gorbals and I have had one of the most wonderful careers a person could ask for. Perhaps some others will feel as I do. Jaybee

Thanks, Jaybee, for giving the other side. Not being born in the Gorbals, it's perhaps not my place to comment. However, my family have very happy memories of life in what I imagine were similar tenements in Govan.....poor isn't a synonym for dirty....

No, thank you Java. I am afraid at times we Gorbalites get our backs up with statements like Glenafton made, yes there was poverty but I would think that this poverty was all over Glasgow at the time. I really do not know how our parents survived what with sirens going off during the night, having to lift children out of their sleep and run to to nearest shelter and often times not getting in. With rationing. A quarter pound of mince would have to feed at least four people. Can you imagine a man coming home from work and having to share a quarter pound of mince with three others these days? I was also very familiar with Govan. My first job was on Helen Street in Govan. Jaybee

Jaybee,
Please read my statement again and I think that you will find that at no time have I insulted nor tried to insult the peoples of the Gorbals. That a lot families lived in squallor,filthy housing that was not fit for animals,were often the victims of drunken men,and sometimes women and had a notorious crime rate is a matter of documented history. But I repeat that I did not insult those unfortunates that were wrongly deprived of the basics of life. I did not insult them for coming from the Gorbals and I never alluded that all those who lived there were vermin ridden. Remember that rats,mice and cockroaches are vermin and they were abundant in the slums as they are in all slums. That is not the fault of those that lived there. I did however and I make no apologies for doing so condemmened the City Fathers for allowing such conditions to exist for such a long long time. They are the ones that I would point out to the world. They are the ones that I would hold to account for their lack of humanity. They were the ones that were content to live their very comfortable lives far from the Gorbals. Not for them was the overcrowding,the smell from blocked sewage pipes,the dampness of the so called houses that helped contribute to a high infancy mortality rate. These Jaybee were what your fellow humans were subjected to. That I get angry at society for allowing such crimes to exist,for make no mistake the poverty of some of these people was a crime,I freely admit. That you should take my condemnation of this neglect as a personal attack was unintended. My ire is only directed at those who allowed this slum to exist. For those that have never seen some parts of the area may I suggest that they view the photographs on the Virtual Mitchell site. They are quite graphic and show what people were forced to live in because of apathy on the part of the Corporation. There is a famous/infamous picture of children in Shamrock Street that was taken in 1949 that portrays fully some of the facts that I have tried to convey.

Thanks for your reply Glenafton. Photographs only show part of a story, not the complete story. Yes there were slums but not all of the people who lived in the Gorbals lived in such conditions. When I read your first posting it read to me that you were painting the whole of the Gorbals with the same brush. Don't forget that when there is a disaster you only see the pictures of the horrible parts, not the good parts. We were quite a poor household but my father worked his backside off to give us a decent life. During the war he was on home guard so at night he would be out during air raids and was expected to show up for work on time the next day. If my memory serves me right, he could be jailed for not showing up. He was and always will be my hero. I am not sure how old you are or what part of Glasgow you were brought up in but in the war days housing was not easy to come by. Anyway, thanks for the response but I still do not completely agree with you. What I experienced and what you have heard are perhaps two very different stories. Jaybee

Jaybee,
I fully agree that photographs will at the best of times show only a part of a story and I doubt that anyone could or would ever relate the whole the whole story of the Gorbals but the pictures do what they were intended to do and that is to show some of the horrors that were inflicted on these poor people. That areas of the Gorbals were not the delapidated slums that were to be found in some parts is of course true as not even the Glasgow Corporation in all it's lethargic best could have been allowed to let such conditions exist. Like you Jaybee I lived through the horrors and restricted conditions of the war and could not under any circumstances be considered wealthy. Not that there were too many wealthy people who lived in Maryhill at that time. Father was not the breadwinner in our family that fell to my mother as my father had a nice easy job sitting in the tail of a Lancaster bomber. So like you Jaybee I knew hard times. But although I could not be considered an expert on the Gorbals I did have friends who lived there and I did in reality see the misery that was allowed to be inflicted on the unfortunates who had to exist there. Unfortunately I am not clever nor learned enough to describe accurately the squallor that existed in these places but perhaps I may have influenced some of those who read these posts to investigate for themselves the conditions that society allowed to exist. That you do not fully agree with me is not important. What is of consequence is that we have exchanged ideas and mayhap learned something from each other. If we were to agree on every statement we then become a mutual admiration society that achieves absolutely nothing.

If you lived in the better houses in the Gorbals you were lucky because for the majority it was 12 houses up a four storey close with a one room and kitchen on either side of a single-end and occupants sharing outside lavatories on the landings. From the 19th Century to the beginning of the 20th when Glasgow shone as the 'Second City of the Empire' the poorest of the working classes occupied housing that was hastily contructed to shelter the mass influx of workers who serviced Glasgow's rapidly expanding manufacturing industries. This housing was designed, divided, located, and constructed to realise as much profit as possible for the private investors who used The Factor to administer the collection of rents, letting and eviction. This was the kind of housing that gave the Gorbals its' reputation as a slum. Although Glasgow is reputed to have adopted a municipal role quicker that any other city with water, gas, hospitals, wash-houses and trams coming under the Corporation's remit they were slower than most to provide public housing. When you have poor housing it tends to be occupied by the poorest in our society and we all know in terms of power they do not really matter, out of sight out of mind. I agree with you Glenafton for even in these early days of Glasgow's development when people were suffering and dying from the conditions that resulted from overcrowding, disease and decay the Corporation were putting the finishing touches to Kelvingrove Park, the City Chambers and the Kibble Palace. Many of these slum houses remained part of the private rental market well into the 60's where a character reference was still required, along with the obligatory bribe called 'key money' as the only way to secure a tenancy. I remember my brother's first home as a room and kitchen with a black iron sink, no hot water tank at all so no possibility of installing an immersion heater or of heating water with the two coal fires.

Marydee,
You have in just a few words summed up mans inhumanity towards his fellow man. Since time immemorial the "Haves" have exploited the "Have Nots". The quest for that extra quid was more important than the poor people they were depriving. Often the justification was that it was more important that a better lifestyle for them and their family was worth the hardship caused to the poor. So what if the house was unfit for human habitation,that a toilet,when it worked,was shared by four or more families,that the houses were rotten with damp and were affecting peoples health. But what if a few of those persons died? There were plenty more to fill the gaps that they left behind. Why is it that poverty was,and I suppose still is regarded by some,a crime. Not everyone had an opportunity or sometimes the ability to become one of the white collar brigade,and for this they had to exist under such terrible condidions. I was reading a paper published by the Evening Times showing important events in Glasgow's history. There was a picture in the paper showing Elizabeth of England touring the Gorbals. Part of her itinary was a visit to a home. A cameraman caught Elizabeth at a perfect moment. The look of absolute disgust on her face was worth more than a thousand words. Did she,I wonder head straight back to her hotel for a hot bath and to burn her clothes.

my father in law comes from the gorbals (kidston st) and the place is looking good but i drove through polmadie last week and its a mess, but i think this will extend to there as well

Sorry ah jist have to say could ye no jist eat they weans. Ah'd have tae gie them a wee wash first right enough. We seem to be talking about two different things here, the wonderful resilient community which was the Gorbals and the horrific housing conditions in which they were expected to live. Jist look at they weans, does yer heart good, muck or no muck.

I have just read thro the posts with great interest. I visited Glasgow a couple of weeks ago trying to track my Dads early years. I had information that his family lived at 49 Polmadie Road and was quite disappointed when a cabbie took us out there that everything was demolished. I could see some blocks in the distance that most of them boarded up and I asked the question could they not be redeveloped as they are such grand looking buildings and solid better than all the modern crap that is erected these days. Was Polmadie Road actually the Gorbals also Cubie Street where my dad spent most of his youth, was that the Gorbals also Centre street. He was living there in 20's and 30's. I never had the experiance of the Gorbals or even growing up in Glasgow but if my dad was anything to go by he was a fine individual who gave me a brilliant childhood and kind lovely man and to be honest my brief time in Scotland everybody is so warm and freindly.

I found these posts very interesting. One of my neighbors is from Canada and when his Scottish parents visit they bring me Times Past, the supplement of the Evening Times. I dont have all of them but Part Fifteen - Rebuilding Glasgow was an eyeopener so I went back into these posts last night and reread them. I am very guilty of reminiscing for the "Old Glasgow" as I am sure many of us repatriates do, but it jolts you back to reality knowing how it really was for families who lived in the Gorbals. I agree that removing closeknit families into those high rise apartments was evil. Their whole pattern of living was changed. And moving people to those new towns created more problems that it solved.

As I remember (please correct me) the Gorbals initially housed families from Eastern Europe and for years it was a Jewish neighborhood. My mother once told me that Jews helped one another and eventually they moved out of the Gorbals. In her words, you will never see a poor Jew.

There were many poor Irish Catholic families in Possilpark. They had large families and many were on The Parish, as welfare was called, but the district was not a slum when I grew up there. It did change, however, and I can remember my father writing about the vandalism when people from other poorer parts of Glasgow were relocated into high rise apartments. They had a friend who tried to move but she couldn't get anyone to exchange with her because of the reputation Possilpark was getting. This was back in the late 60's.

When we moved to 16 Ardoch Street our house had gas lighting. My mother had to pay to have electricity installed and it was not taken off her rent.

I would never offend anyone so I write this as part of the discussion.

buntyq,
The history of the Gorbals is very chequered and dates back to the 14th century when it was a very desirable area. It later became the area where Irish families fleeing from the disasterous famine settled. These poor destitute people were heaven sent for the unscrupulous landlords.
Exploitation at it's worst. Unfortunately taking advantage of the unfortunate in such a situation was regarded by some as quite proper. Needless to say no one bothered to ask as to how the people who were exploited felt. The were after all only working class and probably Irish to boot. So according to the lights of the time they did not count. Industry in the area at the time consisted mainly of the Little Govan Colliery and Dixons Ironworks,probably better known as Dixon's Blazes. Although these companies employed many people they could not give everyone a job so many families were reliant on what social services existed at this time,mainly what was known as the Parish or the Poorhouse. Dickens would have seen little change in the attitude towards the poor. I am always amazed at how some consider poverty to be a crime and the poor as something of a sub species of man. How I wonder would those who held,and in some cases,still hold the poor with disdain would manage if somehow all their comforts were taken away and the were forced by circumstance to live the life that some of the residents of the Gorbals had to endure. Somehow I think that they would fall by the wayside. You are quite correct buntyq,in that the Gorbals housed a large Jewish community for a number of years. As to the why they left I cannot in all honesty say. Historians have never to my knowledge documented why the Jews left the Gorbals. That in itself is a rather good area for discussion.
Poverty,lack of in many cases a sound education,the feeling of despair with no visible end to the misery that these people found themselves in naturally led to drink,crime and abuse. The answer to the "Not nice" people was condemnation. Not for the poor or destitute was the helping hand extended to bring them from their misery. But I must confess,abuse is cheaper than genuine aid.. Consider for a moment. We the "Civilised people of the world" who with our celebrated "Free" education and "Free" health services,we who have submarines that can destroy most of the world at the press of a button,we who spend countless billions on armies that can kill those that the bombs miss cannot lift our own people out of poverty. WHY?

I have a question. How will they relocate the families living in those high risers? Where will they go? I am all for the regeneration but is there any way they can keep the old tenement as a part of the good history of the Gorbals (minus the boarded up shops). We visited the Tenement House in Garnethill but it was different from the homes I lived in, being for middle class families.because of the locked security doors in Ardoch Street I was not able to show my daughter our living conditions,

My mother's people came from the Garscube Road area. In fact 9 Grove Street was her address for years. My grandfather left his family many times so the lack of money was always a problem, so much so that my mother was taken out of school at eleven years of age and went to work polishing marble. The one consistency in her life was her education and she was the "Dux" of her school. That is the student with the highest marks. She could read Charles Dickens. The Pickwick Papers was her favorite book. She has been dead for many years but I owe her my belief in thinking out of the box and wanting to make my life better.

I may have opened up a Pandora's Box but I firmly believe that the Catholic Church should share the blame. They encouraged large families and the promise of a better life in Heaven. I dont remember the priests living in substandard housing or going without food.

No offence taking and I can understand if my comments are taken off.

buntyq,
I cannot,and will not,comment on whether the Catholic Church must share partial blame for conditions in the Gorbals because the church advocated large families. In the first place I do not know and in the second,even should your comments be true,that is something between the Catholic Church and those that follow that particular branch of Christianity. What I do know is that all leaders of organised religions,do not and did not live in squallor or went hungry. Not for them,and we may as well add the rest of those so called pillars of society,was the horror of the slums. I do not suggest that those who were privilaged to have the comfortable lifestyle should have been dragged down to the level of the unfortunate "Have nots" That would have accomplished absolutely nothing. But surely in the name of their respective God,of whatever denomination,the so called leaders "Christian duty" was to raise the standards of the meanest family to a worthwhile state. Yet this did not happen. Was the problem too hard?. Were the words uttered by those who held the power empty rhetoric?. Or did they in reality ,not care?. It would be difficult I suppose for someone who had a nice smelling,warm and dry house with nice toilet facilities to understand what the less fortunate had to endure. Yet these were the ones that were supposed to eradicate poverty. I have a message for these people.. You failed miserably

We will leave it at that, Glenafton. I would have no wish to offend anyone who was Catholic. Its enough that I have my own thoughts.

My Aunt Lizzie, who was retired from a job where she ironed shirts for a clothier in Gordon Street, lived in a single end in the Dobbies Loan area. Her only souce of income was her Old Age Pension but my mother would slip a half crown into her message bag and always made sure that she visited us often and at tea time. Now and then she would get help from The Boatman's Institute. I dont know anything about them (maybe someone else reading this post can provide information.) The view from her only window was the power station. It was a lonely little single end but the family next door kept their eye on her. The toilet was shared with two other families. Poor tenants, yes, but everything was clean.

Sometimes when she had to recuperate from an illness my mother would get a "line" from the Co-operative and she would go down to their home in Wemyss Bay for a couple of weeks. I think we could have a post just on the "Co".

While organised religion can be blamed for a lot of things I do not think we can lay blame for the poor living conditions that existed in the slum areas of Glasgow at the door of the Catholic Church. The slum conditions were not created because the Irish, Catholic immigrant was not allowed to limit his family they were created by greed and need for cheap labour. I have said before that the poorest of the Gorbal's tenements were designed to extract as much profit as possible for private investors and even if families had been smaller two or three would probably have occupied one house. The problem of large families was not only a problem for Catholics at a time when working class women had no access to birth control. My old Granny, born in 1888, had eleven children and she was a Protestant. The then Corporation of Glasgow only regulated the numbers living in these squalid conditions when it was scientifically proven that disease and infections thrived where overcrowding existed. It could be argued that the motive behind these regulations was more to protect the health of the middle classes than to protect the workers because Cholera was classless

marydee,
We could have an interesting discussion on your last post. It is a pity that I agree with your sentiments so we will just have to agree to agree. Since the concept of paying someone to work at a task was first used the "Haves" have exploited the "Have nots" and it unfortunately still happens to-day,though thanks to the working class receiving a much better education than of yesteryear the incidences are getting fewer because the people refuse to accept such condidions now. You are correct in that women,regardless of their religious leanings,or indeed if they had any such beliefs,had large to very large families. Whether this was from demands from uncaring men or as you say having no effective,affordable birth control,I will leave to others to decide. What is undisputable is that disease was often rampant in these substandard homes where there was no proper sanitation and no proper bathing facilities for small families never mind the large ones. How many out there can remember the Saturday night tin bath? That was a standard fitting in many Glasgow homes,but many homes did not even have this very basic facility. How many young women,and I suppose some young men,waited until everyone in the house was asleep so that they could have a strip wash at the cast iron sink without even the benefit of hot water. Small wonder that life expectancy was lower in the poor than was the case of the more affluent. My children and my grandchildren laugh when I relate these tales to them. They cannot understand how people could actually live in such conditions. Yet we did. Though in all honesty I must admit that my family,though we suffered hardships during the war years,were better off than others less fortunate. We had an enameled bath that was kept under the hole in the wall bed and we only shared a common toilet with 3 other families. How posh was that?
Yes,life in the hell holes that the Glasgow Corporation allowed to exist was an inhuman cruelty that should never have happened. Yet out of this misery there was a lesson that the more affluent SHOULD have learned. Those that lived in these slums had nothing but not only would they share what they had they were amongst the first to lend a helping hand when it was needed.

Interesting thoughts and replies. Thanks.

when I take a look at the photograph above it sorta looks sad dint it?

When I look at this photo of the children and their horrific surroundings, I was just wondering in what year this picture might have been taken.

I was raised in Nelson Street,which is in the Gorbals. I was born in 1937. I do recall a mixture of families living up our close,but the majority were clean immaculate people...One family of 7children were not well of,not very clean either, but nothing like this picture.

Catarina, my guess would be late 30s to early 40s. Must have been playing in the muddy back court by the looks of it. Jaybee

Caterina,
Believe it or not,the photograph was taken during an eviction of a family of 11 children and 2 adult. It was taken in Shamrock Street in 1949

Click to view attachment
For a subject of abject misery I submit this poor unknown woman who existed somewhere in the Gorbals in 1910 must be a contender. I don't think that I have ever seen anyone who was so destroyed at heart

Click to view attachment
On a somewhat lighter note. How many out there were bathed like this?

Looking at the photo of the woman with the child from The Gorbals, can't agree she is the picture of abject misery, she actually has a very serene look on her face.Her eyes are weary perhaps , but she has an enigmatic little smile which might suggests she is at terms with her way of life .She may be sitting in squallor, but is that how it was in those days?Did she know anything else?
I remember going into town on the bus which skirted past the Gorbals and I remember seeing the old temements like the one which is still standing in the other photograph, is has such presence, such a pity they had to be knocked down.
Havent been back to Glasgow for 12 years, now living in Australia.One day I will get back for a look round my old stamping grounds around Old Cathcart.

Difficult to believe this squalor existed in 1949.
To think perhaps a few streets whichever way from our house misery like this existed. I have a difficult time getting my head around this...Gosh,I would be 12 in 1949. The Tradeston district was badly bombed. Ruins everywhere for months on end,but I never did witness children in the filthy state of these kids.

Why were they being evicted I wonder. Probably couldn't pay the rent..11kids, how very sad. Seems I had a priviledged childhood in some ways after all.

I have just enjoyed the exchange of information on the Gorbals past.
I lived there for 19years before moving to the "illustrious" Castlemilk Housing Estate...
I lived in Buchan Street opposite Gorbals School and, whilst agreeing that the terrible poverty was a part of life there, we also had the wonderful benefit of neighbours who cared.
"Is ye"re Mammy OK hen? would be the question if a neighbour missed seeing your Mother for a couple of days.....tell me...where would you find this concern now? In our modern society, caring interest is now regarded as being nosy resulting in the fact that you could die in your home and lie there without a neighbour bothering to question your whereabouts.
We have moved on and up gaining on some roundabouts and losing on some swings...I would not exchange the days of my life in the Gorbals in a wee room and kitchen for anything.

I was brought up in the gorbals in the late 50/and 60/ Iremember the gang culture and the violence it was a hard place to live in but they was A lot of good people in it a well such as Rev. G. shaw and Mr.W.fyve who cared for the community they kept A lot of people out of trouble, I was one of them.

I disagree with all of you, Gorbals looks great now, the tennant housing was poor indeed.

I lived in he Gorbals Nicholson Street it was a great community our family did not have much no inside toilet but our home myself and our my 3 Brothers where kep clean.

I cant agree that the poverty that existed was all over Glasgow though yes in the poorer working class areas but certainly not all over Glasgow,many homes where slums of the worst kind and where not fit for human habitation and at the time where a disgrace to the landlords or perhaps slumlords would be a better term The Council being the worst of all.

The advance of the modern media embarrased the city into action.

I have fond memories of my childhood in the Gorbals but I also dont look at that time through Rose coloured glasses either we had to pay rent for homes that where never maintained by the slumlords and where a disgrace to our city at the time.
However the ordinary everday folks who lived their where the best and truly supported and cared for each other.

A lot of what you say is so true the folks where great but they shoulsd never have had to endure the slums they where forced to live in.

The look in this womance face is not serenity nor do I believe anyone living in such squalor could by any stretch of the imagination come to terms with such a way of life nor is it a pity these slums where knocked down they should have been demolished decades before they where.

And unfortunately like many she probably did not know any other kind of life and our City Fathers should have hung their heads in shame for allowing such degradation of fellow human beings.

The statements that Glenafton madeara as valid as any posted I agree with every word it was the Gorbals folk that where great people however their slums where far from great or the ill health and misery they caused to the good folks of the Gorbals it was shameful that folks had to live in such squalor whilst some lived in decadent luxury living of the backs of hard working folks.

I think the picure of the woman sitting with the baby is a set up and she is probably a model posing for the picture.

The house and the woman are filthy and the baby has no clothes on, yet her clothes are in good condition, dirty but not torn. I also think the baby is a doll, not a real live baby.

What kind of young woman would live in such filth and not wash herself or clean out the ashes in the fireplace.

My mum had a saying, " you can be poor but clean, soap is cheap ".

There's definitely not something quite right about that picture wi the 'doll' inrespect of 1) it may have been taken anywhere 2) it could have been a complete fabrication

Photos of those times were/are extremely rare - and only very few picture takers made studies of the type of squalor and depravity that existed back then. A handful, in fact.

Lest we forget just how bad living conditions were for the poor. Some of these images are within living memory and it remains dangerous to forget just how bad things can get for human beings.

http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/month/Mar2006.html

Thomas was one of the handful I was referring to, Melody, thank you.

I remember all of it very well. Was fortunate enough to be born in house built 6 years before my birth in 1933.

, After 2 years of marriage got a single end(Yes. key money) in the Gorbals.
Lived there almost 9 years, I loved the Gorbals, great neighbours, just like a family, loved them.
My daughter was born there in 1954.Have to be honest, was happy when I got a new house with all amenities. Loved the house but hated living in a housing scheme. Was not for me..
Was then we started buying our own house.

Is this mega project still going on or is it finished. If finished how does it look?

Hi Andypices, the High rise flats in the photos were demolished 3 or 4 years ago, the site is now being developed for Social Housing, should be finished 2014?
I have been given permission to photograph the progress, from Norfolk Court from one of the empty flats
Norfolk Court has a limited life span, 2 years approx, houses for sale are the plans for that site

Bye for now, Norrie