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JAGZ1876
QUOTE (zascot @ 7th Dec 2019, 09:37am) *
I have listened to a lot of the debates and read extensively on the different aspects and views on the election and got to thinking who I would vote for if I lived in England or Scotland. I have come to the conclusion, after quite a bit of discussion with business people in both England and Scotland and family in UK and views from UK people over here that the Conservatives would get my vote. I think if labour had a better leader it would be closer.


You're being very selective to which businesses you've spoken to, and did you ask the business you were having a meeting with a week or two ago if they were still going to be "happy with the existing system" even if it means being ripped out of the EU?
zascot
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 7th Dec 2019, 11:39am) *
You're being very selective to which businesses you've spoken to, and did you ask the business you were having a meeting with a week or two ago if they were still going to be "happy with the existing system" even if it means being ripped out of the EU?

Yes I did.
DannyH
Hello Ashfield

I am back again to continue my reply to your post #47, dated 2 Dec.

One of the questions you asked was, “Where is the trade deal to remotely rival that we currently have.

According to researchbriefings.parliament.uk, the UK has a trading deficit of 22.1 billion with China.
The same source cites the UK having a trade deficit with the EU of 66 billion.

Both of these figures refer to 2018.


According to seekingalpha.com, the EU trade deficit with China in July 2019 was 120.9 billion dollars.

So, I am puzzled by the claim (not yours) that the EU is the worlds biggest ‘trading bloc’. I don’t know what that means. It implies that ‘big’ means success. The Chinese must be laughing all the way to the bank.

Danny
ashfield
Danny, in your post (98) you say the you think the term "lies to" insulting to those who voted with the majority. I'm a bit puzzled by why you should find it so. The reality is that the electorate were deliberately misled by claims and counterclaims in the run up to both of the referendums. Even now, the Artful Dodger (avoiding the scrutiny of Andrew Neil) not just lies, he shamelessly lies. He claimed they would build 40 hospitals, lies, he said there would be no border between NI and Britain, lies, he said Labour would spend 1.2 trillion, lies, lies, lies. Meanwhile, the Tory chair, Cleverly (was ever a guy more misnamed) said a doctored video they released of Starmer looking like he couldn't answer questions, was just a joke! Unfortunately there are many of the electorate who will fall for the dirty trick brigade.

I assume your paragraph about the Polish man was to illustrate that some folk who come here will stay. You are of course correct. All I can tell you is the NHS has lost thousands of overseas employees on each of the years since the vote was taken to leave the EU. People with skills have options, clearly they have voted with their feet and we are the losers.

On a separate, but connected issue, I have to laugh at those who talk of the EU as being ruled by an enelected body. Someone should perhaps let them know that the WTO is run by............wait for it.......individuals nominated by the countries involved. That's right, an unelected body except there is none of the political scrutiny or power of veto that exists in the EU.
bilbo.s
https://election2k19.home.blog/2019/12/07/c...Ql7ig7yUnpgp-Tk


A long read. I don't know why I am posting it, as I don't suppose any of the Tories on here will read it.
carmella
Everyone talks a fine talk about shortfalls here, and shortfalls there due to Conservative austerity etc., what you think prior to 9 years ago none of this existed, oh I don’t think so.

Cast your mind back.

I have already voted, so let’s hope the right Party is soon installed within 10 Downing Street!
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 8th Dec 2019, 04:34pm) *
https://election2k19.home.blog/2019/12/07/c...Ql7ig7yUnpgp-Tk


A long read. I don't know why I am posting it, as I don't suppose any of the Tories on here will read it.



Good post, and it reinforces what most of us in Scotland have known for years.

Never trust a Tory. yes.gif
bilbo.s
QUOTE (carmella @ 8th Dec 2019, 07:20pm) *
Everyone talks a fine talk about shortfalls here, and shortfalls there due to Conservative austerity etc., what you think prior to 9 years ago none of this existed, oh I don’t think so.

Cast your mind back.

I have already voted, so let’s hope the right Party is soon installed within 10 Downing Street!





The right party in 10 Downing Street? Rachman lives! tongue.gif
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (carmella @ 8th Dec 2019, 05:20pm) *
Everyone talks a fine talk about shortfalls here, and shortfalls there due to Conservative austerity etc., what you think prior to 9 years ago none of this existed, oh I don’t think so.

Cast your mind back.

I have already voted, so let’s hope the right Party is soon installed within 10 Downing Street!


Successive Westminster governments have failed not just Scotland but most of the UK too.

Sadly the Tory's will win in England yet again, so in my opinion the Far Right party will be installed. sad.gif
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (zascot @ 7th Dec 2019, 01:09pm) *
Yes I did.


So are they no longer happy that the "the existing system" will no longer exist when we are ripped out of the EU?
wombat
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 8th Dec 2019, 05:29pm) *
Successive Westminster governments have failed not just Scotland but most of the UK too.

Sadly the Tory's will win in England yet again, so in my opinion the Far Right party will be installed. sad.gif


rolleyes.gif
oh dear!DUPED again laugh.gif
wombat
QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 8th Dec 2019, 06:26pm) *
The right party in 10 Downing Street? Rachman lives! tongue.gif



tongue.gif
DannyH
Hello Ash

Just had look at your post #104, part of which read,

On a separate but connected issue, I have to laugh at those who talk of the EU being ruled by an unelected body. Someone should perhaps let them know that the WTO is run ——-wait for it ———
individuals nominated by the countries involved. That’s right, an unelected body except there is none of the scrutiny or power of veto that exists in the EU
———————————————— —————————————————————————————————

So Ash, I went looking for verification of your opinion. It turns out there are major differences between the EU and the World Trade Organisation.

1. The World Trade Organisation meets up every two years. The EU Commission meets up every week.
I think there is a different level of importance’s!

So I went hunting on Google and posed the question,

Are Government officials involved in the decision making of the World Trade Organisation?

Then I went on to the WTO website, www.wto.org, which stated,

The WTO is run by member governments. All major decisions are made by the membership as a whole, either by ministers (who meet at least every two years) or by their ambassadors or delegates (who meet regularly).

I think the WTO will be the last thing on the mind of the UK electorate.

Danny
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (DannyH @ 8th Dec 2019, 10:00pm) *
I think the WTO will be the last thing on the mind of the UK electorate.

Danny


Exactly, so stop banging on about it then. laugh.gif
ashfield
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 9th Dec 2019, 10:33am) *
Exactly, so stop banging on about it then. laugh.gif


Actually it was me JAGZ. The reason I raised was because of the number of times it has been mentioned by members of the public as a trading solution if we leave the EU. The point I was making is that they proposing an arrangement that offers less rather than more governance and control.
Kemedian
Any of these first four outcomes could unfold for Scotland in the next 5 years. Thursday's vote is the latest in what will amount to the many that shall shape our future. I have ranked them in order of personal preference:

    1. Remain in the UK. Remain in the EU
    2. Remain in the UK. Leave the EU
    3. Leave the UK. Remain in the EU
    4. Leave the UK. Leave the EU
    5. Move to the moon


I think everybody's first choice is easy. However, it's the second choice that is the most interesting. I wonder if any of you would be bold enough to hypothesize your own such wish list? smile.gif
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (ashfield @ 9th Dec 2019, 03:08pm) *
Actually it was me JAGZ. The reason I raised was because of the number of times it has been mentioned by members of the public as a trading solution if we leave the EU. The point I was making is that they proposing an arrangement that offers less rather than more governance and control.



I know it was Ash, but Danny was quick to pull me up for replying to an off topic post from Zascot. wink.gif
ashfield
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 9th Dec 2019, 05:03pm) *
Any of these first four outcomes could unfold for Scotland in the next 5 years. Thursday's vote is the latest in what will amount to the many that shall shape our future. I have ranked them in order of personal preference:

    1. Remain in the UK. Remain in the EU
    2. Remain in the UK. Leave the EU
    3. Leave the UK. Remain in the EU
    4. Leave the UK. Leave the EU
    5. Move to the moon


I think everybody's first choice is easy. However, it's the second choice that is the most interesting. I wonder if any of you would be bold enough to hypothesize your own such wish list? smile.gif


If we're getting a choice then I would like to see you going to the moon and taking the space cadets leading the Tories, Labout and Lib Dems with you yes.gif
Kemedian
I'd happily go, Ash.

Given that we don't always get what we wish for, which in this context could leave Scotland in a variety of predicaments; hypothetically speaking, what would be your compromise/plan B/next best (call it what you will) 2nd choice?

Are you pragmatic enough to have one, and bold enough to state it?
ashfield
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 9th Dec 2019, 07:14pm) *
I'd happily go, Ash.

Given that we don't always get what we wish for, which in this context could leave Scotland in a variety of predicaments; hypothetically speaking, what would be your compromise/plan B/next best (call it what you will) 2nd choice?

Are you pragmatic enough to have one, and bold enough to state it?


No
Kemedian
QUOTE (ashfield @ 9th Dec 2019, 07:20pm) *
No

So it's win or bust for you...


Click to view attachment
wombat
rolleyes.gif
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 9th Dec 2019, 05:03pm) *
Any of these first four outcomes could unfold for Scotland in the next 5 years. Thursday's vote is the latest in what will amount to the many that shall shape our future. I have ranked them in order of personal preference:

    1. Remain in the UK. Remain in the EU
    2. Remain in the UK. Leave the EU
    3. Leave the UK. Remain in the EU
    4. Leave the UK. Leave the EU
    5. Move to the moon


I think everybody's first choice is easy. However, it's the second choice that is the most interesting. I wonder if any of you would be bold enough to hypothesize your own such wish list? smile.gif



3 for me, my second choice would be 5 for you and Jo Swinson. laugh.gif

I win either way. biggrin.gif
Kemedian
I'm not surprised. rolleyes.gif

Bait a Scottish Nationalist to think outside of Plan A and... and... and they can't. unsure.gif
zascot
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 9th Dec 2019, 06:03pm) *
Any of these first four outcomes could unfold for Scotland in the next 5 years. Thursday's vote is the latest in what will amount to the many that shall shape our future. I have ranked them in order of personal preference:

    1. Remain in the UK. Remain in the EU
    2. Remain in the UK. Leave the EU
    3. Leave the UK. Remain in the EU
    4. Leave the UK. Leave the EU
    5. Move to the moon


I think everybody's first choice is easy. However, it's the second choice that is the most interesting. I wonder if any of you would be bold enough to hypothesize your own such wish list? smile.gif


Kemidian I don`t live there, if I did I reckon my choice would be 2,1,5,3,4. I think 3 and 4 would be a disaster. No doubt I will be asked to explain my choice but its pointless as any answers given are misinterpreted to suit others point of view.
ashfield
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 9th Dec 2019, 07:14pm) *
I'd happily go, Ash.

Given that we don't always get what we wish for, which in this context could leave Scotland in a variety of predicaments; hypothetically speaking, what would be your compromise/plan B/next best (call it what you will) 2nd choice?

Are you pragmatic enough to have one, and bold enough to state it?


Ok, hold on to your hat. Those of a nervous disposition should look away now.

I'm a realist so the most likely outcome as we speak is a working majority for the Tories, so it will a return to Downing St for Dominic Cummings racist, sexist, homophobic lying puppet. He I'll be joined by the toad of toad hall, Gove and all of the arch right wingers that have been kept from public view during the election debates. We will leave the EU with undue haste so Johnson can say he did what he said he would. I fully expect the move, by them, towards a totalitarian state (check the manifesto pledge to review the link between government and judiciary). We will also see trade union rights attacked and workers losing hard fought rights.

That will leave the UK nicely open for business with the US, Russian, Chinese and Indian billionaires, waiting in the wings to plunder what's left of our profitable trade. Let's see, for instance, how long it takes for "Scotch whisky" to lose its regional status. Sadly, Johnson has very little to sell off because the last right wing government sold our Gas, Electricity and Water utilities, BT, rail services, bus services, technology services (selling the family silver said Harold Macmillan) so I guess he has to look elsewhere. It was revealed this week that UK patient data has been sold to US pharmaceutical companies. Whatever would they want that rolleyes.gif I also think that a return to conflict in Ireland is inevitable.

Meanwhile, if Corbyn and Swinson have the good sense to realise they are out of their depth and "move on", there may be a chance of a more credible opposition in 5 years time. Although I suspect the prospective government have plans to change the rules on party funding and membership making life more difficult opposition parties.

So there we have it, the rich will get richer and guess who will pay for it.

My only hope is that the SNP get the kind of support they need to fend off the Westminster thugs (and I'm sorry about those in England who will have no choice but to live with it)
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 9th Dec 2019, 11:22pm) *
I'm not surprised. rolleyes.gif

Bait a Scottish Nationalist to think outside of Plan A and... and... and they can't. unsure.gif


Yes, unlike you British Nationalists that don't even have a plan A. laugh.gif

I'd love to see you telling a Dane, Belgian, Finn or any other person from a normal independent European country that running your own affairs rather than letting their larger neighbouring country do it for them that they're living "A dream you can't escape", and they'd laugh at you louder than we do Kem. laugh.gif
Kemedian
QUOTE (ashfield @ 10th Dec 2019, 08:47am) *
Ok, hold on to your hat. Those of a nervous disposition should look away now.

I'm a realist so the most likely outcome as we speak is a working majority for the Tories, so it will a return to Downing St for Dominic Cummings racist, sexist, homophobic lying puppet. He I'll be joined by the toad of toad hall, Gove and all of the arch right wingers that have been kept from public view during the election debates. We will leave the EU with undue haste so Johnson can say he did what he said he would. I fully expect the move, by them, towards a totalitarian state (check the manifesto pledge to review the link between government and judiciary). We will also see trade union rights attacked and workers losing hard fought rights.

That will leave the UK nicely open for business with the US, Russian, Chinese and Indian billionaires, waiting in the wings to plunder what's left of our profitable trade. Let's see, for instance, how long it takes for "Scotch whisky" to lose its regional status. Sadly, Johnson has very little to sell off because the last right wing government sold our Gas, Electricity and Water utilities, BT, rail services, bus services, technology services (selling the family silver said Harold Macmillan) so I guess he has to look elsewhere. It was revealed this week that UK patient data has been sold to US pharmaceutical companies. Whatever would they want that rolleyes.gif I also think that a return to conflict in Ireland is inevitable.

Meanwhile, if Corbyn and Swinson have the good sense to realise they are out of their depth and "move on", there may be a chance of a more credible opposition in 5 years time. Although I suspect the prospective government have plans to change the rules on party funding and membership making life more difficult opposition parties.

So there we have it, the rich will get richer and guess who will pay for it.

My only hope is that the SNP get the kind of support they need to fend off the Westminster thugs (and I'm sorry about those in England who will have no choice but to live with it)

Kemedian
(In response to the above)

If you couldn't get your Christmas wish, Ash, would you rather the current UK remained in the EU or Scotland left both unions?
Kemedian
Or to put it another way (if the board will let me) Ash,

to avoid your worst case scenario of ending up stuck both in (the UK) and out (of the EU), would you rather stay fully in or go fully out of both; would you rather continue the old fight within the status quo or take it outside the EU as an independent Scotland???
Kemedian
Of course, as we can see, anyone staying on message won't contemplate defeat. The simplest of answers can be the hardest. But if Ash's tale of woe materialises and Boris begins his Brexit, then the leader of the SNP will have this stark and difficult choice.

Will she continue to obstruct Brexit or go with the flow and use it to engineer independence. The former is the more hopefull shortcut to Remaining, the latter is the more difficult detour back to the EU.

A vote for the Lib Dems is the surest way to return another Remain Parliament.
ashfield
You are rather letting your imagination run wild Kem. Get yourself onto Katya Adler's Twitter feed to get a reasoned explanation of why Johnson is telling us yet more porkies about his so called oven ready Brexit deal. It's better than a fictitious poke in a Tory aides eye by a labour supporter outside a hospital reported by "respected" BBC and ITV journos rolleyes.gif
ashfield
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 10th Dec 2019, 10:40am) *
(In response to the above)

If you couldn't get your Christmas wish, Ash, would you rather the current UK remained in the EU or Scotland left both unions?


Many years ago there was a motorway service station that offered a range of breakfasts on their menu. You could only buy them as described on their menu, nothing could be taken out, nothing could be added in and there was hell to pay if you asked for one without bacon or another with extra toast. They got so much bad press that it was forced into change to allow customers a choice of menu items.

You seem to see the world as the fixed menu with no room for deviation. My politics are more pragmatic although my socialist principles are a huge influence on how I vote (which is why the Tories will never, ever, get mine). Right now, I believe voting SNP is not only best for Scotland, but best for the future of Scotland. Do I think they are perfect, nope, but I trust them more that any other party right now.

Kemedian
QUOTE (ashfield @ 10th Dec 2019, 03:34pm) *
Many years ago there was a motorway service station that offered a range of breakfasts on their menu. You could only buy them as described on their menu, nothing could be taken out, nothing could be added in and there was hell to pay if you asked for one without bacon or another with extra toast. They got so much bad press that it was forced into change to allow customers a choice of menu items.

Can't you try to imagine that your usual breakfast is off the menu - what would you have instead? By the sounds of it, you'd starve.
ashfield
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 10th Dec 2019, 04:09pm) *
Can't you try to imagine that your usual breakfast is off the menu - what would you have instead? By the sounds of it, you'd starve.


Nope, I'd find something to eat but there are some things that are just not palatable wink.gif
wombat
QUOTE (ashfield @ 10th Dec 2019, 04:12pm) *
Nope, I'd find something to eat but there are some things that are just not palatable wink.gif



rolleyes.gif
taurus
I don`t understand one word of the election,who`s who,who`s good who`s bad,but i`m praying that the UK will get a good government,and bring the country back t normal.ASAP!
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 10th Dec 2019, 02:21pm) *
A vote for the Lib Dems is the surest way to return another Remain Parliament.


I imagined you with your underpants on your head with a pencil up each nostril when i read that Kem.

Was i close? laugh.gif
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (taurus @ 10th Dec 2019, 07:39pm) *
I don`t understand one word of the election,who`s who,who`s good who`s bad,but i`m praying that the UK will get a good government,and bring the country back t normal.ASAP!


Can you tell me what "normal" was in relation to the UK Taurus?
wombat
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 10th Dec 2019, 07:40pm) *
Can you tell me what "normal" was in relation to the UK Taurus?


tongue.gif ahm sayin nuffin rolleyes.gif
caltonjock
Church leaders have emphasized that simply being attracted to someone of the same sex is not a sin and that God loves all of his children.

But those wishing to maintain full membership in the Church are required to commit to a life of celibacy.

The Mormon Church states unequivocally that marriage and sexual relations can only be between a man and a woman who promise complete loyalty to each other and that homosexuality is contrary to God’s plan for his children.

Members in same-sex marriages are considered to be apostates which is an excommunicable offense.


https://caltonjock.com/2017/06/05/stephen-k...isexual-or-exp/

Should he be re-elected as the MP for Stirling? Made it last time by around 150 votes
DannyH
I was watching the Scottish Party Leaders who were participating in a debate on the BBC tonight.
One of the answers given by the Scottish Labour Party Leader, Richard Leonard, confused me.

He said his Party would fight for a shorter working week, a minimum wage of 10 pounds an hour, and an end to zero hours contracts. This from a man who wants us to remain in the EU.

I am puzzled. Why does he have to fight to end zero hours contracts? I thought workers rights were supposed to be one of the benefits of being in the EU?

I guess the striking French railway workers thought their pensions were protected by the EU regulations.

What about the British women who have to work longer to be eligible for a State Pension? Yes I know it was a Tory Government that did that. But why did the EU allow it?

I think the EU is one of those organisations who are good at making up rules. Unfortunately they leave the implementation, and interpretation, of the rules to member states.

Volkswagen is a perfect example. They used modern digital technology to fake the emissions test results of their cars. They then exported their cars all over the globe, knowing they were polluting the environment. Did the EU have any mechanism in place to check up on Volkswagen? No it was the Americans who discovered that Volkswagen was cheating. We are talking thousands of cars here.

So please don’t try and convince me that they EU rules makes for a better life for us all. It is not the rules that matter. It is the resolve to implement them, that counts.

Danny
Kemedian
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 10th Dec 2019, 07:39pm) *
I imagined you with your underpants on your head with a pencil up each nostril when i read that Kem.

Was i close? laugh.gif

What you imagine in your own free time is your business, Jagz. But I recommend another chat with your GP.
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (caltonjock @ 10th Dec 2019, 10:14pm) *
Should he be re-elected as the MP for Stirling? Made it last time by around 150 votes


No, the only reason being he's a Tory, i couldn't care less about his religious beliefs. wink.gif
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 10th Dec 2019, 11:40pm) *
What you imagine in your own free time is your business, Jagz. But I recommend another chat with your GP.


Nah, my GP and i are strangers, though you may need some strong sedation on Friday morning. laugh.gif
caltonjock

In reply to DannyH: Leonard really is a plonker. The Labour Party has a record of duplicity.



If zero-hours contracts are so bad, how come 68 Labour MPs Employed Staff on Them?

Ed Miliband blasted David Cameron and big business over zero-hours contracts – and pledged to stick up for ordinary workers who are being “exploited.” Speaking in Yorkshire, the Labour leader raged:

“Less than a week ago, you may have heard the Prime Minister say that he couldn’t live on a zero-hours contract. Well, I couldn’t live on a zero-hours contract either. I’ve got a simple principle – if it is not good enough for us, it’s not good enough for you and it’s not good enough for Britain. “That’s the way I will run our country. One rule for all.”

But there was one small problem for Ed. It was revealed by the pay and expenses watchdog IPSA that a large number of Labour MPs employed workers on “zero-hours” contracts.

A damning list of 68 (nearly a quarter of the Labour parliamentary party) included Ed Balls, Lucy Powell, Karen Buck, and Ian Murray.

Labour insist their MPs only use the casual contracts to hire interns or students on flexible deals.

But Steve Turner, Unite regional officer, said last year:

“Parliament passed the laws that are supposed to protect pay and conditions. “Our MPs ought to be upholding them, setting a high standard for employers.

https://caltonjock.com/2015/04/28/ian-murra...d-in-office-it/
Kemedian
Click to view attachment



Happy voting tomorrow everyone.
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 11th Dec 2019, 03:59pm) *



Happy voting tomorrow everyone.



I know i will be happy, and you can be too Kem if you vote for the third largest party at Westminster, and the only party who have consistently opposed Brexit, and are the only party who can stop Brexit.

For once let your head rule your heart. wink.gif
caltonjock
The equal pay policy commitment is most certainly yet another Labour party joke, to be pulled on Scottish workers by the very people they elect, the Unions, to protect their rights at work.

In Glasgow, women involved in the pre-2007 pay claims recall how the GMB union and the Labour Party council pressurized them into accepting low settlements by offering them cheques for a few thousand pounds just before Christmas so long as they signed quickly. Many signed.

But many more held out against the injustice and badly judged advice from their Unions and took their cases to another source of advice. Namely, Action 4 Equality – Scotland managed by Solicitor Stefan Cross.

In doing so they had to wait longer but received far greater settlement sums. Not only did Cross take on Glasgow District Council, but he also sued the unions for failing to properly represent their female members, forcing them to up their game.

In so doing, he made himself hugely unpopular and many still regard him as an ambulance-chaser who got rich off the back of driving English councils to the brink of disaster.

To the women, however, he is a hero, which explains why Cross retained 80 percent of the claimants. “I will have to give him 10 percent of the payout, but he deserves it,” one woman tells me. “He stuck with us when the unions couldn’t be bothered.”




https://caltonjock.com/2019/12/12/in-the-mi...-before-voting/
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (caltonjock @ 12th Dec 2019, 04:33pm) *
In Glasgow, women involved in the pre-2007 pay claims recall how the GMB union and the Labour Party council pressurized them into accepting low settlements by offering them cheques for a few thousand pounds just before Christmas so long as they signed quickly. Many signed.


And let's not forget that one of the GMB union representatives advising the women to accept low settlements to save the council money was none other than the current Labour party in Scotland branch manager Tricky Dicky Leonard.

Shameful, but at least the new SNP council got the women the money they deserved. yes.gif
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