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john.mcn

So rather than continue being 'off topic' in the Indy thread I figured a new thread would be best.


So the highest court in Spain says the referendum was illegal, this would mean that many people would not bother voting as the voting result could not stand up anywhere in the world. By the looks of it the indy supporters still voted though and thats the reason for the high 'Si' vote but very low turnout. The Catalan authorities would have been better calling for a change in the law in the Spanish parliament or appeal to international bodies for their support.
Now as Spains court says it is illegal then the state police were sent in to prevent what would have constituted a crime if the people voted. If they were ordered to carry out 'punishments' to those voters then I certainly hope that there are repercussions from the bottom up.
After the outcry both within Spain and internationally I had hoped that the two governments would sit down and come to an agreement where a legally binding free referendum can be held and the outcome respected by both sides, but as we can see both sides seem entrenched in their belief that they are right and the other wrong. The Catalonian government looks like they will declare UDI and the Spanish government will claim it it void because the referendum was illegal, because of this most countries will not support Catalan and we could see violence in the street as those who do support Independence will no doubt protest and those who dont will also protest. If there are battles on the street between the groups then the Spanish government will send in troops and suspend the Catalonian parliament
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 4th Oct 2017, 08:00pm) *
So rather than continue being 'off topic' in the Indy thread I figured a new thread would be best.

QUOTE
... and we could see violence in the street as those who do support Independence will no doubt protest and those who dont will also protest.



Good idea, John.

Since a high percentage of "Si" votes were recorded among a low percentage turnout, do you not think the same percentages of turnout might be seen on the streets in protest as it would seem that those who did not support Independence kissed the King's ring so might not wish to incur the wrath of his Mossos d'Esquadra which was well documented a few days ago?
john.mcn
I think 'kissing the kings ring' is probably not the right turn of phrase to describe someone who did not support the independence cause.
Although the turnout figures have been claimed to be 42% there has been claims of irregularities and people voting more than once. To use this result to declare UDI is just madness and I'm thinking the Catalan president is looking for more confrontation chasing the grievance vote.

Spains constitutional court has suspended the parliament to prevent the declaration of Independence. The case was brought forward not by Madrid but by the Socialists' Party of Catalonia who are against Independence
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41514398

The European commission has issued a statement that Catalan would be outside the EU in the event of them becoming independent.

QUOTE
Statement on the events in Catalonia


Brussels, 2 October 2017

Under the Spanish Constitution, yesterday's vote in Catalonia was not legal.
For the European Commission, as President Juncker has reiterated repeatedly, this is an internal matter for Spain that has to be dealt with in line with the constitutional order of Spain.
We also reiterate the legal position held by this Commission as well as by its predecessors. If a referendum were to be organised in line with the Spanish Constitution it would mean that the territory leaving would find itself outside of the European Union.
Beyond the purely legal aspects of this matter, the Commission believes that these are times for unity and stability, not divisiveness and fragmentation.
We call on all relevant players to now move very swiftly from confrontation to dialogue. Violence can never be an instrument in politics. We trust the leadership of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy to manage this difficult process in full respect of the Spanish Constitution and of the fundamental rights of citizens enshrined therein.
TeeHeeHee
Google's Logo of the day, today wink.gif

"Freedom is not given to you - you have to take it."
Meret Oppenheim
john.mcn
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 6th Oct 2017, 10:23am) *
Google's Logo of the day, today wink.gif


Only in German speaking countries, the rest of us just have the plain old google
QUOTE
"Freedom is not given to you - you have to take it."
Meret Oppenheim


And that is true, but first they have to want it and there's no reason to suggest the majority of the people in Catalonia want it

I was reading a post from a Spaniard earlier where they attack the the idea from Catalonia's independence supporting parties insisting they can call for independence with the support of less MPs than is required for them to appoint the chief of the Catalonia public TV service huh.gif
TeeHeeHee
We're living in a time of "One Thousand Signatures" moving mountains it would seem.
john.mcn
All those who want another referendum without Westminsters backing take note

QUOTE
Spain Catalonia: France snubs independence bid


The French government has said it will not recognise Catalonia if it declares independence from Spain and such a move will mean expulsion from the EU.
European Affairs Minister Nathalie Loiseau said the crisis following the banned 1 October referendum had to be resolved through dialogue within Spain.
Catalan President Carles Puigdemont is expected to address the regional parliament on Tuesday.
There has been no sign of a compromise being struck with Madrid.
Economic pressure on the pro-independence camp is rising with three more companies expected to discuss moving their offices out of Catalonia on Monday, sources told Reuters news agency.

These are infrastructure firm Abertis, telecoms company Cellnex and property group Inmobiliaria Colonial.
Major lenders Caixabank and Sabadell announced earlier that they were moving their offices out of the region.
The region of Catalonia, home to 7.5 million people in the north-east, is crucial to Spain, which is the EU's fifth-biggest economy and a member of Nato.

In other developments:
Catalonia's High Court asked for Spanish national police to provide extra security at the court building in the event of the Catalan parliament declaring independence; the building is currently guarded by local police
The leader of Spain's Socialist opposition party, Pedro Sanchez, told reporters in Barcelona that his party would back government action if independence was declared unilaterally on Tuesday: "We reach out for dialogue but we'll support the response of the rule of law in the face of any attempt to break social harmony"
"If there was a declaration of independence, it would not be recognised," Ms Loiseau told French broadcaster CNews (video in French).
"The first consequence would be its exit from the European Union."

"Obviously," she added, "there is more to Catalonia than the consultation organised by the independence movement...
"This crisis needs to be resolved through dialogue at all levels of Spanish politics."
Casting doubt on the validity of the vote, she described Spain as a "great democracy" and pointed to the "particularly" high level of devolution its regions already enjoyed.
However, Catalans have long been calling for more say in spending, higher status for their language and recognition that they are a nation distinct from Spain.
bilbo.s
Heartwarming to note the concern and interest shown in the affairs of Spain by those with no personal interest in the Catalan situation, and who regularly attempt to deny the right of comment on Scottish/ UK matters to those of us Scots who live abroad, especially those who still have British nationality and even retain the right to vote in UK elections.

What rank hypocrisy! Gawn ya mugs ye!
wombat
QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 9th Oct 2017, 10:37pm) *
Heartwarming to note the concern and interest shown in the affairs of Spain by those with no personal interest in the Catalan situation, and who regularly attempt to deny the right of comment on Scottish/ UK matters to those of us Scots who live abroad, especially those who still have British nationality and even retain the right to vote in UK elections.

What rank hypocrisy! Gawn ya mugs ye!


thumbup.gif yes.gif
john.mcn


A bit of a difference between a discussion on THE topic of the week and some wee greeting faced sod whinging and greeting for over a year because most people here dont share his love of the EU.
bilbo.s
You forgot to mention my whinging (sic) about the independence issue. None of what you say changes the fact that you are a great steaming heap of hypocrisy. I also note your continued use of gutter language.
Dykejumper
In Scotland the people with most interest in Catalonia are of course the Nats who gave a standing ovation to a Catalonian representative and followed it with flag waving support in George Sq.
I dont think they will declare UDI but if they do I hope they dont expect La Sturgeon to recognise
them.
john.mcn

They didn't
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41574172

I welcome Sturgeon butting in on the events in Spain, she is pissing off an EU member who might very well get their revenge on Scotland in any future EU expansion thumbup.gif
bilbo.s
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 10th Oct 2017, 10:29pm) *
They didn't
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41574172

I welcome Sturgeon butting in on the events in Spain, she is pissing off an EU member who might very well get their revenge on Scotland in any future EU expansion thumbup.gif



How's that going to work for you, given that your 2 greatest wishes - Brexit and no Scottish independence - happen?

Surely you are not willing the vengeance of others on your native land?
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 10th Oct 2017, 09:29pm) *
I welcome Sturgeon butting in on the events in Spain, she is pissing off an EU member who might very well get their revenge on Scotland in any future EU expansion thumbup.gif



Are you sure you have Scotland's best interests at heart John? unsure.gif

Cutting off your nose to spite your face springs to mind.

QUOTE (Dykejumper @ 10th Oct 2017, 11:06am) *
In Scotland the people with most interest in Catalonia are of course the Nats


Which Nats DJ, the Scottish or the British ones?
Dykejumper
Could it really be that you missed the Catalonia hysteria at The Nats convention?
john.mcn
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 10th Oct 2017, 11:40pm) *
Are you sure you have Scotland's best interests at heart John? unsure.gif

Cutting off your nose to spite your face springs to mind.



Do you have Scotlands interest at heart by championing the SNP position of leaving the UK single market to apply join the EU where we do a 1/4 of the trade.
Remember you said you would give away all the oil just to have independence, your wee phrase suits your views a lot more than it does mine.




You seem to have blinkers on Jagz or are just being silly when you refuse to accept that Scotland Indy groups and Catalonians do not share interests, they had a delegation at the SNP conference
bilbo.s
Ye're steamin' again and I don't mean alcohol!
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 11th Oct 2017, 09:28pm) *
Do you have Scotlands interest at heart by championing the SNP position of leaving the UK single market to apply join the EU where we do a 1/4 of the trade.


Do you honestly expect an independent rUK would be like you and cut off it's nose to spite it's face?
john.mcn
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 11th Oct 2017, 09:41pm) *
Do you honestly expect an independent rUK would be like you and cut off it's nose to spite it's face?



Are you still peddling that myth that Scotland, if they managed to join the EU, could write their own trade deals with countries outwith the EU. The EU makes the deals on behalf of its members, if there is no trade deal with the UK then upon being accepted (if they got in that is) an iScotland would have to impose whatever tariffs and restrictions on trade the EU instructed them to, likewise the rUK who is our biggest market would carry out the same to trade from Scotland.


Of course as in the case of Catalonia we can see that the EU and its members will not recognise any declaration of Independence if it is not legal, any referendum Sturgeon organises where there is no agreement from Westminster will not be legal. Just as a Barcelona court ruled against the regions government, a Scottish court could rule against the Scottish government, all it would take would be a company or individual to to raise an action. if the referendum went ahead then the Scottish government would have broken our own law.
All Sturgeons drum banging is to keep the likes of you on board, she has no more power to call a legal referendum than Puigdemont did
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 11th Oct 2017, 11:43pm) *
Are you still peddling that myth that Scotland, if they managed to join the EU, could write their own trade deals with countries outwith the EU.


No John i''m not " peddling that myth that Scotland, if they managed to join the EU, could write their own trade' deals with countries outwith the EU".

The question i'm asking you is would the rUK cease doing deals with Scotland and the rest of the EU?
john.mcn
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 11th Oct 2017, 10:58pm) *
No John i''m not " peddling that myth that Scotland, if they managed to join the EU, could write their own trade' deals with countries outwith the EU".

The question i'm asking you is would the rUK cease doing deals with Scotland and the rest of the EU?



The UK is in negotiations to do a deal, whatever is agreed on is the one that will be applicable to all EU members including future ones. If that deal is tariffs or restrictions on freedom of movement(and it should) then it would also apply to a future iScotland if they ascended to the EU. Have you somehow missed the last year when you've been banging hollowed out logs and shouting 'freedom', the UK cannot negotiate it's own deals while we are a member of the EU, Scotland would be no different. As there is far more trade between Scotland and rUK than Scotland and the EU then any restrictions on this island would be far more damaging.

Now all this is immaterial as the UK PM will not transfer the powers needed to have another legal referendum. We can see from the EU and its members responces to Catalans referendum that they will not recognise the result of an illegal one, no spin from you or Sturgeon can make that go away.
bilbo.s
The Catalan referendum was illegal according to the Spanish Constitution. Would you care to direct us as to where it is written in the UK Constitution that Scotland cannot hold an independence referendum without the permission of Westminster? I know, I know. That's an unfair question, as the UK has no written constitution. As the old joke (truism) goes, it's not worth the paper it's not written on.
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 12th Oct 2017, 06:29pm) *
Have you somehow missed the last year when you've been banging hollowed out logs and shouting 'freedom'

Now all this is immaterial as the UK PM will not transfer the powers needed to have another legal referendum.


You've got me confused with someone else John.

And yet in her autobiography "The Downing Street Years" Margaret Thatcher wrote.

"Should they (Scots) determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way, however much we might regret their departure."


I doubt if any Westminster PM would oppose another referendum.
john.mcn
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 12th Oct 2017, 08:33pm) *
You've got me confused with someone else John.

And yet in her autobiography "The Downing Street Years" Margaret Thatcher wrote.

"Should they (Scots) determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way, however much we might regret their departure."


I doubt if any Westminster PM would oppose another referendum.



Thatcher has been dead a long time, the SNP and its minions need to move on instead of blaming everything on someone else. I wonder if the Catalonions keep bringing up Franco.
We have our own parliament and we had a referendum where the SNP failed to convince most people of their financial plans, to date they still dont have a convincing plan and try to win support for another referendum playing up to the grievance vote.
bilbo.s
Catalonions? wacko.gif Onion Johnnies to a man!
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 12th Oct 2017, 10:21pm) *
Catalonions? wacko.gif Onion Johnnies to a man!


It's Glesgay banter dontcha know. biggrin.gif
john.mcn
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 13th Oct 2017, 11:28am) *
It's Glesgay banter dontcha know. biggrin.gif



Or very simply a typo but whatever rocks you old fogies boats

Now your wee Thatcher quote intrigued me as it's not often we hear of a SNP follower hold up Thatcher in a good light so i had a look see.

The actual unedited quote is below, i suppose it would make sense on your part to delete the bold section seeing as we had a referendum on the matter just three years ago and would make your post rather pointless.

If [the Tory Party] sometimes seems English to some Scots that is because the Union is inevitably dominated by England by reason of its greater population. The Scots, being an historic nation with a proud past, will inevitably resent some expressions of this fact from time to time. As a nation, they have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way, however much we might regret their departure. What the Scots (not indeed the English) cannot do, however, is to insist upon their own terms for remaining in the Union, regardless of the views of the others.
bilbo.s
How do you claim that that clause affects the meaning of the statement? Your lack of understanding of the English language must be suspect. Maybe you should stick to weegie talk and then we can all understand you, or at least what you say.

Thatcher said that Scotland has the right to self determination. How does mentioning that, so far, it has decided on remaining in the Union, modify that statement?
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 13th Oct 2017, 07:42pm) *
Now your wee Thatcher quote intrigued me as it's not often we hear of a SNP follower hold up Thatcher in a good light so i had a look see.

thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union


Why shouldn't i quote Thatcher John?

Of course we have voted to remain so far (i never said we hadn't) we never had a choice to join though, and your quote could equally be used for our right to remain in the EU.
john.mcn
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 14th Oct 2017, 11:44am) *
Why shouldn't i quote Thatcher John?

Never said you couldn't but it's nice to know that 'The SNP' agrees with Thatcher...again laugh.gif
QUOTE
Of course we have voted to remain so far (i never said we hadn't) we never had a choice to join though, and your quote could equally be used for our right to remain in the EU.


Scotland did join though, although suffrage was not as available to the common masses as it is now the Scottish parliament did vote to dissolve itself and join in a Union with England. That is of course I assume that by using 'we' you are referring to Scotland and not commenting on people who were alive 300 odd years.
The quote cannot be used as you say as the last line states that the Scots cannot insist on their own terms for remaining in the Union, for that needs to majority of the voting public in the UK (as the UK is the member)which was achieved when most people voted to leave the EU just the same as voted to remain in the UK.
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 14th Oct 2017, 05:46pm) *
Never said you couldn't but it's nice to know that 'The SNP' agrees with Thatcher...again laugh.gif


Scotland did join though, although suffrage was not as available to the common masses as it is now the Scottish parliament did vote to dissolve itself and join in a Union with England. That is of course I assume that by using 'we' you are referring to Scotland and not commenting on people who were alive 300 odd years.



They don't John, i'm not a spokesperson for the SNP.

The "we" as i was referring to was the majority of the people of Scotland.

But you knew that. yes.gif
john.mcn
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 14th Oct 2017, 05:45pm) *
They don't John, i'm not a spokesperson for the SNP.

The "we" as i was referring to was the majority of the people of Scotland.

But you knew that. yes.gif



Well over 300 years ago the majority of the people did not have the vote, the majority of those who did voted to dissolve the Scottish parliament though

But you knew that. yes.gif

cool.gif
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 14th Oct 2017, 06:49pm) *
Well over 300 years ago the majority of the people did not have the vote, the majority of those who did voted to dissolve the Scottish parliament though

But you knew that. yes.gif

cool.gif



The ones that did vote for a union were not doing it for the majority of the people of Scotland but for their own self interest and profit.

But you knew that as well. yes.gif
wombat
laugh.gif laugh.gif boom boom thumbup.gif
wombat
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 14th Oct 2017, 06:34pm) *
The ones that did vote for a union were not doing it for the majority of the people of Scotland but for their own self interest and profit.


hey M8 same shit, different day yes.gif
john.mcn
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 14th Oct 2017, 06:34pm) *
The ones that did vote for a union were not doing it for the majority of the people of Scotland but for their own self interest and profit.

But you knew that as well. yes.gif


Of course they weren't but thats neither here nor there, there was a vote in the Scottish parliament and that was to dissolve said parliament to form a political union with England. Dont try to quote history then twist it to suit your agenda. We, as in Scotland, did vote to join in a political union with England
wombat
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 14th Oct 2017, 08:16pm) *
.

Dont try to quote history then twist it to suit your agenda. We, as in Scotland, did vote to join in a political union with England


laugh.gif we watched from afar while every a..hole under the sun interfered in scotlands referendum (very democratic) laugh.gif

john.mcn
QUOTE (wombat @ 14th Oct 2017, 07:47pm) *
laugh.gif we watched from afar while every a..hole under the sun interfered in scotlands referendum (very democratic) laugh.gif


And Nicola Sturgeon gave her views on Trump and the Catalan referendum possibly peeing them off in the process.
bilbo.s
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 14th Oct 2017, 10:08pm) *
And Nicola Sturgeon gave her views on Trump and the Catalan referendum possibly peeing them off in the process.



Just as you do to us, giving your views on anything, ya wee Tory/Trump supporter!
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 14th Oct 2017, 08:16pm) *
We, as in Scotland, did vote to join in a political union with England


No, my "we" is the majority of the people of Scotland who had no say whatsoever in the decision to join England in a union.

Your "we" is the "such a parcel of rogues in a nation" (we're bought and sold for English gold) did, no twist in history at all, it's a fact.
john.mcn
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 15th Oct 2017, 10:28am) *
No, my "we" is the majority of the people of Scotland who had no say whatsoever in the decision to join England in a union.

Your "we" is the "such a parcel of rogues in a nation" (we're bought and sold for English gold) did, no twist in history at all, it's a fact.



Jagz the 'we' as in the people you refer to died hundreds of years ago, they did not have the vote then nor anywhere else in Europe. There was no widespread democracy prior to that either, all our famous kings did not ask the wider public if they wanted to be ruled over but they did rule whether the lowly man or woman wanted them or not. For you ignore what happened in Parliaments simply because there wasn't 'one adult one vote' is laughable. Scotland had a parliament who sat in chambers and passed laws.
Going by your logic then 'we' did not go to war in 1914 because women couldn't vote or in 1939 because adults under 21 were not allowed to vote until 1970. Hell, it was only recently that 16 and 17 year olds were given the right to vote in Scotland so does that mean everything prior to that does not count. rolleyes.gif
bilbo.s
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 15th Oct 2017, 03:41pm) *
Jagz the 'we' as in the people you refer to died hundreds of years ago, they did not have the vote then nor anywhere else in Europe. There was no widespread democracy prior to that either, all our famous kings did not ask the wider public if they wanted to be ruled over but they did rule whether the lowly man or woman wanted them or not. For you ignore what happened in Parliaments simply because there wasn't 'one adult one vote' is laughable. Scotland had a parliament who sat in chambers and passed laws.
Going by your logic then 'we' did not go to war in 1914 because women couldn't vote or in 1939 because adults under 21 were not allowed to vote until 1970. Hell, it was only recently that 16 and 17 year olds were given the right to vote in Scotland so does that mean everything prior to that does not count. rolleyes.gif



wacko.gif
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 15th Oct 2017, 02:41pm) *
Jagz the 'we' as in the people you refer to died hundreds of years ago, they did not have the vote then nor anywhere else in Europe. There was no widespread democracy prior to that either, all our famous kings did not ask the wider public if they wanted to be ruled over but they did rule whether the lowly man or woman wanted them or not. For you ignore what happened in Parliaments simply because there wasn't 'one adult one vote' is laughable. Scotland had a parliament who sat in chambers and passed laws.
Going by your logic then 'we' did not go to war in 1914 because women couldn't vote or in 1939 because adults under 21 were not allowed to vote until 1970. Hell, it was only recently that 16 and 17 year olds were given the right to vote in Scotland so does that mean everything prior to that does not count. rolleyes.gif



I know they are dead now John, no one is arguing that, the point i made was the people of Scotland never voted for a union with England, the rest of your post is moot points.
john.mcn
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 15th Oct 2017, 04:28pm) *
I know they are dead now John, no one is arguing that, the point i made was the people of Scotland never voted for a union with England, the rest of your post is moot points.



The 'people of Scotland' did not have the right to vote in the first place. Your use of the word 'we' is the problem due to the aforementioned fact and that every person around then is long dead. This leaves the ones that could vote and most did back the formation of the Union.
Ohh and 'we' did not vote for another referendum, like back then it was the politicians.

Anyway i started this so as not to be off topic in the Indy thread but this is now turned into a Scotland thread so I wont entertain any more rubbish about twisting historical facts to suit an agenda

QUOTE
Catalonia: No sign of movement as Spanish deadline looms



The leader of Spain's Catalonia region has attended a commemoration less than 24 hours before a Spanish deadline to give his final say on independence.
Carles Puigdemont and other senior politicians paid tribute in Barcelona to a Catalan leader who was executed under Franco in the Civil War.
He said his government was "against aggression and against imposed rule".
Spain has given him until 10:00 (08:00 GMT) on Monday to clarify whether he has or has not declared independence.
If he confirms that he has, he will have until Thursday to withdraw the declaration or Catalonia, which has substantial autonomy, faces the prospect of direct rule from Madrid.

On Sunday, Mr Puigdemont and others including the Mayoress of Barcelona, Ada Colau, visited the grave of Lluis Companys near Montju´c Castle on the 77th anniversary of his execution by firing squad.
The spokesman for Spain's ruling Popular Party, Pablo Casada, warned this week that Mr Puigdemont might end up like Companys, clarifying later that he had only meant he might end up in prison.
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