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enrique
Having been a trade unionist for much of my life I voted for Labour , but as of a few years ago I changed to S N P, now in my 70s , I find at this election im stumped , I cant vote Labour while they have a no hoper in a leader Corbin, and now I cant vote for S N P , as their leader quite obviously does not agree with democracy
, as she wont agree with the voice of the people after the vote , I voted for independence and also
voted to stay in the E U, but the country voted both times for the opposite, but you have to go with the result even if it is not what you want, we are supposed to be the fathers of a democratic system that is envied throughout the world, but we now have leaders who spit the dummy out if its not what they want, I don't think I can vote Tory, so it might be an abstainer
bilbo.s
Enrique, I mean no offence, but your idea of democracy is not mine. The crucial thing is that the much-bandied "will of the people" is not written in stone. The people are very fickle and their opinions in a constant state of flux. Get out there and vote for what you believe is right for Scotland. You have a choice of making a difference, which is more than can be said for the poor English.
Dykejumper
bilbo has obviously noticed that the SNP now talk about the will of the Scottish Parliament rather than the will of the Scottish people.
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (enrique @ 20th Apr 2017, 12:03pm) *
cant vote for S N P , as their leader quite obviously does not agree with democracy


The SNP were voted in by almost 50% of the electorate with the promise of holding a second referendum if there was any fundamental changes against will of the people of Scotland, 62% of those who voted in the EU referendum wished to stay in EU but we are to be taken out against our wishes.

Our larger partner makes all the major decisions for us in this so called equal union, will your abstaining improve Scotland?
bilbo.s
QUOTE (Dykejumper @ 20th Apr 2017, 01:37pm) *
bilbo has obviously noticed that the SNP now talk about the will of the Scottish Parliament rather than the will of the Scottish people.



Your comment makes no sense whatsoever, but- Hey, what's new? wacko.gif
john.mcn
QUOTE (enrique @ 20th Apr 2017, 11:03am) *
Having been a trade unionist for much of my life I voted for Labour , but as of a few years ago I changed to S N P, now in my 70s , I find at this election im stumped , I cant vote Labour while they have a no hoper in a leader Corbin, and now I cant vote for S N P , as their leader quite obviously does not agree with democracy
, as she wont agree with the voice of the people after the vote , I voted for independence and also
voted to stay in the E U, but the country voted both times for the opposite, but you have to go with the result even if it is not what you want, we are supposed to be the fathers of a democratic system that is envied throughout the world, but we now have leaders who spit the dummy out if its not what they want, I don't think I can vote Tory, so it might be an abstainer


You're not alone Enrique, I will vote though even if its some party I've never heard of, simply so that its registered as a vote and it counts. If you do not vote then they'll keep doing what they do, this is why crappy Councillors got away with it for years, people just stopped voting and they just won on lower turnouts.


QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 20th Apr 2017, 11:22am) *
Enrique, I mean no offence, but your idea of democracy is not mine. The crucial thing is that the much-bandied "will of the people" is not written in stone. The people are very fickle and their opinions in a constant state of flux. Get out there and vote for what you believe is right for Scotland. You have a choice of making a difference, which is more than can be said for the poor English.


Your kind of democracy is one where you agree with the outcome. If Scotland voted YES would you be all for another vote to overrule the first

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 20th Apr 2017, 11:45am) *
The SNP were voted in by almost 50% of the electorate with the promise of holding a second referendum if there was any fundamental changes against will of the people of Scotland, 62% of those who voted in the EU referendum wished to stay in EU but we are to be taken out against our wishes.

Our larger partner makes all the major decisions for us in this so called equal union, will your abstaining improve Scotland?



You keep saying this but its bollocks and you know it. There was no promise in the manifesto, what it did say was
We believe that the Scottish
Parliament should have the right to
hold another referendum if there
is clear and sustained evidence
that independence has become the
preferred option of a majority of
the Scottish people – or if there is
a significant and material change in
the circumstances that prevailed in
2014, such as Scotland being taken
out of the EU against our will.

So less than 50% on a low turnout voted for them...no mandate
They believe they should have the right, well they dont and they dont get to include bolt on clauses as an afterthought for laws they dont have.
For them, and you to somehow now use the votes of Unionists and NO voters to scweam and scweam to get what you want is pretty pathetic. Ruth Davidson voted remain FFS and does not want the SNP to use her vote to remain as an excuse to drag up another referendum.
Last year 39,345 voters in my area voted to remain, 41,690 voted NO in 2014. in 2015 23,013 people voted for the SNP, are you that bloody blinkered that you say that those numbers are somehow close and that Conservative NO voters who voted remain are going to about turn and either vote SNP or want another referendum, do you somehow think the same for NO voters around Scotland?
What you and wee Nic have totally missed is that those who voted NO and Remain do not like instability, there is no chance they will want another ref or vote for INDY on the back of Brexit.. This mad crusade by wee nic is just losing support.

Lets see her put another referendum right there in the manifesto, forget trying to pull the wool over Remain voters eyes, make about Indy znd if she gets her +50% then no one can stand in her way.
bilbo.s
John McNutter said, "Your kind of democracy is one where you agree with the outcome. If Scotland voted YES would you be all for another vote to overrule the first"

What an idiotic question ( even though it does lack a question mark!) Losing the place, John. Not surprising with the twists of your mind. yes.gif

You will finish up your own nostril or some other orifice. laugh.gif
john.mcn


Ahh the Bilbo the tax evader pips up. I left the question mark off because it was rhetorical as I knew you wouldn't answer .
That you felt the desire to reply and still not answer what you thought was a question is quite laughable..
You do only like democracy when it goes your way, you think it's perfectly fine to keep asking the question until you get to the 'right answer', is it any wonder you're so in love with the EU.
bilbo.s
You really have flipped, you poor eejit! Now I am a tax evader? As that is a crime, why don't you report me. Alternatively, I dare you to give me your real name and I could sue for libel.
You missed off the ? because it was a rhetorical question? Gie us all a break! As you say, it was a rhetorical question and therefore does not require an answer, although the answer is obvious to anyone. Why on earth would anyone demand a recount of a vote with which he agreed?

Awa'n bile yer heid. Oh, done that, got the t-shirt, have you? wacko.gif
john.mcn


My my, can a user name be sued for libel..LOL is bilbo.s a registered name then laugh.gif
You moved to Spain thus you do not pay tax here yet still benefit from free health care paid for by the UK.

Dun dun dun, and there we have the proof, Bilbo only thinks 'people are very fickle and their opinions in a constant state of flux' and in need of another vote when he agrees with the outcome. Unlike you I respect with the outcomes of elections and referendums even if I do not like how it went
bilbo.s
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 22nd Apr 2017, 12:55am) *
My my, can a user name be sued for libel..LOL is bilbo.s a registered name then laugh.gif
You moved to Spain thus you do not pay tax here yet still benefit from free health care paid for by the UK.

Dun dun dun, and there we have the proof, Bilbo only thinks 'people are very fickle and their opinions in a constant state of flux' and in need of another vote when he agrees with the outcome. Unlike you I respect with the outcomes of elections and referendums even if I do not like how it went



Just as well you have a user name when you make cowardly libellous statements. On the other hand, my real name is easily found on this board, and so go ahead and report my tax evasion to HMRC.

You have no idea whether or not I still pay any UK tax, but that is irrelevant as I am a UK pensioner and contributed as most did to the NIS for all our working lives. In any case I am not guilty of the crime of tax evasion nor even tax avoidance. Perhaps you confuse me with some of your Tory pals or your hero Trump.

Your arrogance is leading you to make errors now, as proven by your second paragraph. It has been the downfall of many.
john.mcn


Mr Lawyer, Mr Lawyer a big bad man I've been calling names and one of the many I have been abusing over the past several months has retaliated and called my internet pseudonym a name back.... Is there any way I can shut him up by threatening him by trying to say he was libeling my real world name that he doesn't know, hasn't seen and probably couldn't give a crap about by saying I have posted my details somewhere in the 10,000 odd posts.
So anyway bilbo, how many members here have you slandered, abused and even threatened over the years, can you not take it back you sad little bully.

I know that residents of Spain pay tax on their worldwide income as someone I vaguely knew(brothers pal) years ago relocated there to save tax, how much they saved I dont know but it was enough to up sticks and move.
Two people I personally know moved abroad to work and when they came back they were informed by our 'free' NHS that they would have to pay for treatment despite all those years of paying NI. I guess the rules are that if you move and dont pay yer dues then you dont get the benefits of membership...Sure thats been said before by some EUrophile laugh.gif

My second paragraph is basically what you have posted. Referendum results are the "will of the people" but are "not written in stone. The people are very fickle and their opinions in a constant state of flux." You want to ignore the democratic result and have another vote because you disagree with the outcome, if Scotland voted YES then you take the complete opposite stance, the will of the people in that case would be set in stone.
bilbo.s
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


Hilarious! A little learning is a dangerous thing, and a miniscule one extremely so. I must return to my previous position of ignoring your posts, as it is evident to anyone sensible that you are unhinged. Rave on. I have better things to do than listen to your rants. Byeeeeeeeee!
john.mcn
Seeing as you learn nothing that makes you what, a sad little pathetic pensioner sitting in the sun bitching that most people disagree with you? laugh.gif

Ignore away, I guess having someone point out your complete inability to understand the website you link to and your own posts is too much for your wee bullying self..
You are the one who wont accept the democratic decision made by the voting public by claiming it is not your idea of democracy yet you dont have a problem with the same system if Scotland voted yes, now that is hilarious!!!

PS you read my replies, it is you who rants tongue.gif
Kemedian
No-one to vote for... especially if you're a Green supporter. laugh.gif

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scot...litics-39855884

This polarising pro-Indy pact is dumbing down Politics.
john.mcn
Should be the Greens new logo, recyclable of cource wink.gif
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 9th May 2017, 11:34pm) *
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scot...litics-39855884

This polarising pro-Indy pact is dumbing down Politics.


But you don't mind a Pro Union pact?

http://www.thenational.scot/news/15236862....o_keep_SNP_out/

Maybe John.mcm will buy you a pint of Watney's Red Tory light.

Don't like it myself, too gassy, loses its head to quickly and soon goes stale. laugh.gif
john.mcn
I dont think anyone likes the polarisation of Scottish politics based on Indy. Funny thing about t all though is that for a Year its all we hear from the SNP then when an election leaflet from them is on your doormat theres not one mention of it. For a party that claims to speak for the people and is so insistent that it has our backing why are they now scared to mention it.
Ohh no doubt they'll get most MP's but if there was such a Pro Union pact then I believe the SNP would be hammered across most of the country.

East Renfrewshire will be interesting, its a previous Tory seat held by Jim Murphy for 18 years, Better Togethers Blair McDougall is standing for Labour here which was one of the highest NO votes in Scotland, if he splits the Tory vote then the SNP may sneak back in. I dont think anyone was surprised as them that they won last time.
bilbo.s
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 10th May 2017, 09:26pm) *
I dont think anyone likes the polarisation of Scottish politics based on Indy. Funny thing about t all though is that for a Year its all we hear from the SNP then when an election leaflet from them is on your doormat theres not one mention of it. For a party that claims to speak for the people and is so insistent that it has our backing why are they now scared to mention it.
Ohh no doubt they'll get most MP's but if there was such a Pro Union pact then I believe the SNP would be hammered across most of the country.

East Renfrewshire will be interesting, its a previous Tory seat held by Jim Murphy for 18 years, Better Togethers Blair McDougall is standing for Labour here which was one of the highest NO votes in Scotland, if he splits the Tory vote then the SNP may sneak back in. I dont think anyone was surprised as them that they won last time.





https://youtu.be/VuHFQ7KZOKA
Kemedian
Harvie and Chapman have truly selt the jerseys now. yes.gif

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scot...litics-39873325

But 2 years ago...


If the Tories push the SNP hard enough they might just kill-off the Scottish Greens entirely.

Yet he would if he could change SNP policy.


Democracy, eh?
john.mcn

He kinda loses his passion when he has to look down at a speech.
Whatever happened to the SNP only voting on Scottish issues in Westminster, Heathrow should be an England only issue.
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 10th May 2017, 08:26pm) *
Funny thing about t all though is that for a Year its all we hear from the SNP then when an election leaflet from them is on your doormat theres not one mention of it.


Day job John, day job. yes.gif
Kemedian
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 11th May 2017, 01:03am) *
Whatever happened to the SNP only voting on Scottish issues in Westminster, Heathrow should be an England only issue.

A devastating landslide, following this promise... eyebrow.gif

QUOTE (Sturgeon)
The SNP will use our influence at Westminster to help deliver positive change for the benefit of ordinary people, not just in Scotland, but across the UK.

john.mcn


As long as the benefit of ordinary people in the rUK does not include free University though.
john.mcn
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 11th May 2017, 01:26am) *
Day job John, day job. yes.gif



Well the thing is Jagz without the usual Indy bit the leaflet was a tad empty so I'm starting to think they're on a job share... Which come to think of it is something I thought that our politicians should do. Prior to the devolved parliaments we had an MP who did all our MP-ing stuff, now we have MSPs who do a lot of the stuff MPs used to do but we still have MPs doing a lot less 'work' but still drawing a full wage with expensive accounts, offices and staff.
bilbo.s
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 11th May 2017, 09:22pm) *
Well the thing is Jagz without the usual Indy bit the leaflet was a tad empty so I'm starting to think they're on a job share... Which come to think of it is something I thought that our politicians should do. Prior to the devolved parliaments we had an MP who did all our MP-ing stuff, now we have MSPs who do a lot of the stuff MPs used to do but we still have MPs doing a lot less 'work' but still drawing a full wage with expensive accounts, offices and staff.



Glad to see you are coming around (again) to the idea of independence. We certainly do not need MPs in Westminster, especially as they are always a huge minority. Time for Scotland to dispense with their cost, not forgetting our shared cost of the other MPs and Lords there.
john.mcn


I never stopped believing in Indy but I accept the the result of the referendum as the will of the people and that it would be financial suicide to do so while tax returns from oil will be in the negative. As old fields close and new ones open then as an accountant you should know that any costs incurred can be offset against taxes due. The 'cash cow' the SNP so badly needs to pay for their wish list wont be producing milk for quite some time. That leaves us, the public, to pick up the tab for not only the break up but the costs in creating new departments to replace ones handled UK wide.
There also the big issue of the SNP's policy of EU membership whether we like it or not, they voted against the EU referendum so they are not be trusted if there's promises to hold another if Scotland becomes Independent.
Wee Nic in her drive to satisfy the 10,000's of impatient new SNP members is alienating those who want it when the time is right and not hitching on the Brexit ride.

Now all that aside I am not an Indy at all costs guy, if the UK changes to a federal type system and people feel represented then I would be content if there wasn't another one in my lifetime.
Kemedian
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scot...litics-39914195

So the Scottish Greens are in bad shape, or is this what it looks like: the Party in power influencing the election and the resulting affect on the Political landscape of its interminable fight for Independence.

Answers on a polling card.

In my opinion, on another bad day for Democracy in Scotland this development is the most serious evidence yet of Mr Harvie transforming his desperate Party into a subsidiary branch of the SNP, in a patently obvious case of Power before Principle.
bilbo.s
rolleyes.gif
Kemedian
Coalescing the Indy vote and Indy Parties will only perpetuate the referendum cycle. The Union vote is split, and proud to be so I would suggest. However, in a binary vote this doesn't matter.

The recent local elections demonstrated for anyone still in doubt that a win for the SNP (even including the Green vote) doesn't equate to Independence - it's a failed policy that's failing our country.

Click to view attachment
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 14th May 2017, 11:59pm) *
it's a failed policy that's failing our country.


Sums up the union well. thumbup.gif
Kemedian
These cybernats terrify me and this now includes SNP Politicians, as if we didn't know.

To quote their Party Leader: "Shame on them!!"

QUOTE
Tartan Toryism, it seems, is alive and well.

JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 22nd May 2017, 06:27pm) *
These cybernats terrify me and this now includes SNP Politicians, as if we didn't know.

To quote their Party Leader: "Shame on them!!"


How do you know they were "cybernats"?

A lot of this woman's colleagues were outraged that she was caught out lying and bringing their profession into into disrepute.

Did your political periodical run a story on Nicola Sturgeon at the weekend when the police announced they would be increasing her security including replacing her government driver with a police officer after an increase in death threats to her and not just from CyberBritnats either?

No......Well blow me sideways again.

Now your cybernats really terrify me. yes.gif
JAGZ1876
"Tartan Toryism, it seems, is alive and well"

Well according to Ruth and your lot on here they are on the rise and will be winning lots more seats at the Westminster election.

We'll know on the 9th June. unsure.gif
john.mcn
How was she caught out lying? Have public servants (bar politicians) not had a fixed 1% wage increase for several years?

Why are SNP politicians sharing tweets about members of the public, we are well with our rights to hold public officials to account on TV or anywhere else. For them to join in a cyber lynching by sharing details to their followers is bloody disgusting and they should remember their place ..We are their bosses, not the other way around...Thats directed to all of them so put yer pitchforks down
Kemedian
I was entitled to a jibe, Jagz, as it is current news.

It is mind wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif boggling why so many at the TOP of the SNP allowed themselves to be caught out sharing fake news about that NHS worker. It is a shocking insight into the dark side of the SNP social media machine.

By all means expose the cyber bullying by other Parties. But at least condemn it when it arises (if you can bring yourself to criticise one of your own).

I have remained on here over the years because there are no cybernuts, just honest guys and gals with something to say. biggrin.gif
Kemedian
... and all coming just a day after the admirable 'Jo Cox truce'.

Crass.
Kemedian
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 22nd May 2017, 07:00pm) *
she was caught out lying and bringing their profession into into disrepute

It wasn't the nurse whose behaviour forced her to later tweet a grovelling public apology.

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/866403766593081344

The Twitter replies shed further darkness on the divisions such Politics brings to public debate.
bilbo.s
They would not listen, they're not listening still. Perhaps they never will. tongue.gif
bilbo.s
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 22nd May 2017, 11:00pm) *
It wasn't the nurse whose behaviour forced her to later tweet a grovelling public apology.

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/866403766593081344

The Twitter replies shed further darkness on the divisions such Politics brings to public debate.



Indeed! We are still waiting for the nurse's apology, grovelling or not.

http://www.anyvoice.co.uk/health-education...e=socialnetwork
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 22nd May 2017, 07:33pm) *
How was she caught out lying?

Have public servants (bar politicians) not had a fixed 1% wage increase for several years?


The pay she says she's on does not tally with the amount of years she claims to have been a nurse for starters.

Yes you are correct, public servants have been getting 1% pay rises from the SG, unlike their counterparts in England who have been getting nothing.
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 22nd May 2017, 08:59pm) *
I was entitled to a jibe, Jagz, as it is current news.


Current fake news.

I thought you would have been annoyed that a debate about the Westminster election was stage managed to be anything but a debate about the Westminster election.

Perhaps you were pleased that Ruth didn't have to answer any awkward questions. yes.gif
Kemedian
It doesn't even matter now that the Party has belatedly distanced itself from such viewpoints guys, Politics takes a back seat given events in Manchester.
john.mcn
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 23rd May 2017, 09:38am) *
The pay she says she's on does not tally with the amount of years she claims to have been a nurse for starters.

Yes you are correct, public servants have been getting 1% pay rises from the SG, unlike their counterparts in England who have been getting nothing.


I take it you are aware of the pay structure of a nurse, yes they get yearly increments that do get capped, yes a band 7 earns a good wage (though a new band 7 gets less than a higher grade band 6) but thats if they are full time. Her band and length of service are irrelevant if she only works part time. Thats not to say I know her, her wage or her hours, but then neither do you. She may be on a wack, travel to New york, married to a tory councilor, own a hose and send her child to a private school, or she may not, I dont know, What I do know is that her message has been lost in all this and the cyberlynching of a nurse who demands answers to questions a lot of nurses want to hear. She was right on some of her points and even though a starting salary of 22k is a lot to some, some nurses will struggle to live and work the odd shifts that the job requires. A car is a necessity, unless you live close by expect to be out of the house 14 hours using public transport only to do it all the next day. Some nurses rely on the bank to get by, some only have the bank so dont even get regular hours.

Now it looks like a lot of this fury is because she put Wee Nic on the spot. I see cries of this isn't about devolved issues, well if there's one party who cant greet about mixing up reserved/devolved it's the SNP.
Now if it was Ruthie she put on the spot would the uproar be as bad?
bilbo.s
What a load of unadulterated excrement! It just gets worse and worse! laugh.gif
john.mcn


Really, so are we to add NHS pay grade expert to your list of imaginary qualifications?
bilbo.s
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 24th May 2017, 12:36am) *
Really, so are we to add NHS pay grade expert to your list of imaginary qualifications?



NHS pay grades are a matter of public record. Let's hear all your qualifications for all the guff you spew, which was , in any case, the subject of my last post, and not the specific matter of NHS pay.
john.mcn
Ahh so when you referred to my post as 'What a load of unadulterated excrement! ', you were not referring to all of it, only some...

i wouldn't know if pay grades were published as i just asked a nurse what they were, did you check or just follow the pitchforks
As for the 'guff', no qualifications needed to form an opinion luckily, though i suspect you would much prefer us lowly working class types to shut up and let you private school academic types do the thinking for us.
My points about about newly qualified nurses are true though. If you live at one end of the city or further away and the hospital you worked at closed and you, and the patients where transferred to the new Queen Elizabeth hospital, how can you easily get there using public transport if you need to be in before 7 and might not leave until near, or after 8. As those times are not peak times buses might be 1/2 hour between journeys and if you need to get 2 or more buses to get home you would be out of the house for 14 hours , a car is a necessity imho for a nurse working 12 hour shifts but something a new nurse may not be able to afford . With the lightburn hospital in the east end closing and work shifted to Stobhill you add travel time and problems for staff and patients who live in the area, but dont take my word for it, take Paul Kavanaghs aka the wee ginger dug
http://www.thenational.scot/comment/152837..._cruellest_cut/

Strangely enough there's criticism there about hours and so on but no social media lynchmob trawling through their profile, cant be because she did it to Wee Nic surely

Ohh and BTW in your link the rev stu posted a comment about how to contact the nurse in that piece, would he do that if Ruth Davidson was put on the spot..I think not

Has the nurse got an agenda, most likely, did she lie about using a foodbank personally, probably, has she the right to question the first minister, dam right, was her other points outwith the alleged lies valid? yeah
bilbo.s
What a load of irrelevant codswallop, mixed in with cringe-worthy Uriah Heep-ness ! You may as well blow bubbles. yes.gif
Kemedian
The YESNP movement has mutated into something very nasty if this response to someone brave enough to challenge the boss is anything to go by. Should never ever happen, it turns Democracy on its head. blush4.gif
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