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DannyH
QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 6th Nov 2016, 08:24am) *
I should have thought that even Danny Boy could understand that "that lot" refers to a group and not to one individual. Obviously I overestimated him. :(


Bilbo, how about giving us all a break. I made a post, and you replied "that lot", therefore implying that I am a member of a group on participating on this this topic. I am not a member of any political group. This is a topic on a political issue. It is up to you to define who "that lot" is.

By dragging Jagz into it, you are giving the impression that Jagz is siding with you.

Couldn't you just try and make a post which addresses the topic?

Danny Harris
DannyH
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 6th Nov 2016, 12:13am) *
No you didn't Danny.

And i would never refer to you as "that lot" you know me better than that.



Hi Jagz

Look I know you wouldn't refer to me as 'that lot'. We disagree quite often, but I think we have mutual respect for each others views.

Regards

Danny
DannyH
QUOTE (mcfergus @ 6th Nov 2016, 10:48pm) *
john.mcn
I think you are missing the whole point of the problem.
We had an "advisory" referendum the result of which should have gone staight back to the parliamentarians who originally approved it so that they could discuss,debate and decide on what "advice"they had been given and come up with a cunning plan to implement that advice.
Instead the result got as far as Mrs May who decided that "Brexit means Brexit" and had not a clue how she was going to implement this.
Some of the questions to be decided upon when we leave the European Community(and we will leave) are things like:-
Will we retain in British Law those laws passed as a result of our current membership such as workers rights and human rights legislation. Will we also retain some other less essential procedural legislation until such time as it might be replaced with more appropriate home grown ideas.

Will we allow those EEC nationals already in this country to remain, especially when many of them are doing essential jobs, and in return expect recprocity from our divorcing partner for Brits abroad.

Will we try to retain accesss to the "free market" with a perhaps a modified definition and operation of "free movement of people and work.

I could go on to talk about Fisheries, Sharing of Criminal Information,Refugee Resettlement and other areas of mutual involvement.

These are just some of the areas where all shades of opinion should be examined and debated so that we all have a better understanding of what " Brexit" means.

But then again maybe it was really about 350 million a year to save the NHS and putting up barriers to hold back 15 million turks if they all become european tomorrow.



Hello mcfergus

Thank you for your post. It makes interesting reading, and gives contributors to this topic, something to debate. Which means of course that we can raise issues that are of concern to us.

In your opening paragraph you quite rightly state it was an advisory referendum. From my experience, we are seeing the result of Westminster civil servants advice. Prior to the referendum getting the go-ahead, Cameron wanted the result to be, Stay in Europe. He made that clear. So he would have been advised to use the term "advisory".

Obviously if the referendum result had been to stay in Europe., there would have been no problem. Nothing would have to change. So the term 'advisory' was put in to cause disruption in the event of a Leave vote.

If you think I am am wrong, then I ask you, why was it a non-politician who took this case to court?
Why wasn't this matter discussed in Parliament? The MP's could have had a vote on this issue prior to the referendum, and saved us all a lot of hassle.

You mention workers right. What rights? The right to have zero hour contracts? Is this allowed under EU laws? It must be or surely it wouldn't exist. The rights of BHS owners to legally set up the running of the company in order that they could manipulate the system to walk away with millions and their employees are left with no pensions?

Regarding trade, this is a joke. My wife and I bought presents for our family members living up North
Some clothing, some toys and books. Nothing we bought was made in the UK or the EU. Everything came from the far East.

Regarding trade with the EU. Does anyone think that Spanish fruit growers and wine producers are going to say, "Stuff the British, we won't sell to them". The same appies to holidays. That is one of the war cries. "We won't be able to holiday in Europe any more, it will be too expensive". If we stop going, it will hurt their economies more than ours. It is their problem, and the airlines. Without customers they won't survive. Just look at what happened to our once famous holiday resorts like Rothsey, Dunoon, etc.

Anyway, remember mcfergus, all of the above was nothing personal. Your post just gave me the opportunity to express my views. Thank you.

Regards

Danny Harris
john.mcn
QUOTE (mcfergus @ 6th Nov 2016, 10:48pm) *
john.mcn
I think you are missing the whole point of the problem.
We had an "advisory" referendum the result of which should have gone staight back to the parliamentarians who originally approved it so that they could discuss,debate and decide on what "advice"they had been given and come up with a cunning plan to implement that advice.
Instead the result got as far as Mrs May who decided that "Brexit means Brexit" and had not a clue how she was going to implement this.

I am well aware of the fact the the referendum was 'advisory', those who would have parliamentarians un democratically reject the majority outcome have never shut up about it since the vote did not go their way.
Brexit means the UK leaving the political union that has become the European Union, it really is that simple. Now i'm not saying the process of dismantling the UK from the clutches of the EU is an easy task but we will leave (as you said and bilbo missed biggrin.gif )
QUOTE
Some of the questions to be decided upon when we leave the European Community(and we will leave) are things like:-
Will we retain in British Law those laws passed as a result of our current membership such as workers rights and human rights legislation. Will we also retain some other less essential procedural legislation until such time as it might be replaced with more appropriate home grown ideas.

Will we allow those EEC nationals already in this country to remain, especially when many of them are doing essential jobs, and in return expect recprocity from our divorcing partner for Brits abroad.

Will we try to retain accesss to the "free market" with a perhaps a modified definition and operation of "free movement of people and work.

I could go on to talk about Fisheries, Sharing of Criminal Information,Refugee Resettlement and other areas of mutual involvement.

These are just some of the areas where all shades of opinion should be examined and debated so that we all have a better understanding of what " Brexit" means.


Negotiations are not down to parliament but the department tasked with doing the job, do run of the mill MP's take it upon themselves to do the job of the diplomats or other civil servants. They can, and should debate whatever deal is hammered out between the UK and EU but as we have seen with the supposed 'deal' Cameron brought back from the EU there are lots of vested interests within it. It may seem harsh to say the rights of those non UK citizens should be protected but you cant do that until you know how the other side intend to play. What would be the worse thing to do is let MP's demand certain things from the talks as it'll only show weakness in negotiations, nothing at this point should be taken off the table

QUOTE
But then again maybe it was really about 350 million a year to save the NHS and putting up barriers to hold back 15 million turks if they all become european tomorrow.


I dont recall any 'Brexiters' here going on about the 350 million, it was mentioned by Bremoaners to try to imply we were thick a few times though. Several times I and others mentioned the UK received a rebate, either with or without that the UK was, and still is a net contributor to the EU.
The NHS could claw back money if they did what they were supposed to do and charge those not who were not entitled to free treatment, those EEA bills that are not paid by their countries and the rest of the world visitors cost the NHS hundreds of millions of 's a year
https://www.nao.org.uk/press-release/recove...rseas-patients/
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 6th Nov 2016, 10:01pm) *
Interesting point.


That point was raised in 2014.
bilbo.s
http://uk.businessinsider.com/interview-gu...britain-2016-11


Guy Verhofstadt shows more sense than any of the ninnies in the UK Government, who are delusional on a scale never seen before.
bilbo.s
https://brexit853.wordpress.com/2016/09/27/...ment-directive/

Debunking the myth that the EU has forced unlimited immigration of EU citizens on the UK. Belgium is mentioned as having requirements on immigrants to be self-supporting and covered by health insurance and I can vouch that Spain has the same restrictions on residency plus lack of benefits available. The fault in the UK is that of the Westminster government and its lack of control.
mcfergus
QUOTE (Dykejumper @ 6th Nov 2016, 11:05pm) *
Its 350 million a week ! of which we get a rebate of about 1/3rd thanks to Maggie Thatcher, it used to be
bigger but Tony Bliar gave some of it up for promises that were never kept. Various pro EU bodies
have bleated about loss of EU grants,they seem unaware that the EU are simply giving us some
of our money back.


Hi Dykejumper
Sorry about the slip up week/year. However if we are faced with the the same rate of progress as we have experienced since the referendum I could have said 15 million (if the pound keeps slipping) and 350 million turks (they do breed at some rate) as the eventual target figures by the time negotiations are concluded.
In connection with the "Rebate" you mentioned one of my own favourite people and I make no apology for inserting a part of one of my earlier posts.
"Mrs Thatcher was a cold, calculating, cunning and ruthless politician.

When she came to power the TUC and, especially, the miners were the opposition. She set out to destroy them. She gave in to the miner’s first strike because it was winter and coal stocks were low. Having built up the stocks she then goaded them into another attempt (not that Scargill & Hatton needed much goading) and roundly defeated them. In the process she inflicted a great deal of “collateral damage” to heavy industry and the communities depending on it.

In the meantime she also conducted a spending review, a part of which involved “The Defence White Paper 1981”.
A suggestion in this was that a saving (500,000 per year) could be made by withdrawing HMS Endurance from the Falklands. Sir John Nott pointed out that this might be seen as a sign of weakness by Argentina but nevertheless arrangements were set in train to withdraw the ship.
Weakness - or a deliberate ploy?
Invasion-War- Falklands Liberated. But at what cost in British & Argentine lives at the time and in financial terms since?

On the back of this “Victory” she then renegotiated the British contribution to the EEC... One of the first thing she did on coming to power was to raise VAT from a basic 8% (12.5% for luxury goods) to 15%.It had seemed to escape her that a proportion of this increase would go to Europe and would in effect cost us billions. The result was” the rebate” which we are told has since saved us billions. It still cost us billions because the rebate only represented a fraction of the increase in the contribution for which she was responsible in the first place.
mcfergus
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 7th Nov 2016, 02:34am) *
Negotiations are not down to parliament but the department tasked with doing the job, do run of the mill MP's take it upon themselves to do the job of the diplomats or other civil servants. They can, and should debate whatever deal is hammered out between the UK and EU ;

Several times I and others mentioned the UK received a rebate, either with or without that the UK was, and still is a net contributor to the EU.
The NHS could claw back money if they did what they were supposed to do and charge those not who were not entitled to free treatment, those EEA bills that are not paid by their countries and the rest of the world visitors cost the NHS hundreds of millions of 's a year
https://www.nao.org.uk/press-release/recove...rseas-patients/

Thanks john.mcn for your reply.
The main pont I was making in the particular section of my post was that the particular areas of interest should have to be identified,possibly agreement reached on a cross party team to represent the government (considering the serious nature of the subjects involved perhaps even the devolved governments) and then a negotiating team sent out to do the actual hard stuff subject to their scrutiny.
You can see what I think of the"Rebate"in my reply to Dykejumper and I can absolutely agree with your remarks about EFA treatments.
john.mcn
Mcfergus my problem with any open debates in parliament over what individual MP's want from negotiations is that they'll be showing 'our hand' before we get down to business. Do we really need those who are more concerned with 'political correctness' buggering up any chance of our negotiators going into talks with game of poker game faces on, nothing should be freely taken off the table unless negotiated, they cant do that with MP's bleating about this, that or whatever.
Some people are looking at the UK from a weak position in these talks and if we go there with that frame of mind we will be treated as such, all we hear is that 'we' need single market access, well i look at it that there are those in the EU who also need access to the UK's single market. Personally i dont want full access to the single market because it goes both ways and EU countries heavily subsidised with EU money cant compete unfairly with UK companies here, i prefer a trade deal which benefits both sides by having tariff free import/exports but then I've no power over the talks.
john.mcn
QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 7th Nov 2016, 08:48am) *
http://uk.businessinsider.com/interview-gu...britain-2016-11


Guy Verhofstadt shows more sense than any of the ninnies in the UK Government, who are delusional on a scale never seen before.


Guy Verhofstadt is a federalist who wants to see a united states of Europe and the end of individual sovereignty, his wee piece there talks of strengthening the EU which basically translates as 'Yes we have rid of the anchor, now we can sail on to the USoE', if i had to choose one person who see's where the EU is going in the near future it would be him. I do find it odd that a person who says they support Scottish Indy would agree with anything he says, under his EU Scotland would remain a small(er) part of a Union.
mcfergus
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 7th Nov 2016, 10:56pm) *
Mcfergus my problem with any open debates in parliament over what individual MP's want from negotiations is that they'll be showing 'our hand' before we get down to business. Do we really need those who are more concerned with 'political correctness' buggering up any chance of our negotiators going into talks with game of game of poker game faces on, nothing should be freely taken off the table unless negotiated, they cant do that with MP's bleating about this, that or whatever.
Some people are looking at the UK from a weak position in these talks and if we go there with that frame of mind we will be treated as such, all we hear is that 'we' need single market access, well i look at it that there are those in the EU who also need access to the UK's single market. Personally i dont want full access to the single market because it goes both ways and EU countries heavily subsidised with EU money cant compete unfairly with UK companies here, i prefer a trade deal which benefits both sides by having tariff free import/exports but then I've no power over the talks.


Hi john.mcn
I think I understand where you are coming from. However I do not feel so adversarial about the situation. I take the view that they send us more than we send them=they have more to lose. In my view that gives us an advantage. Free trade just cuts out all the bureaucratic interference which is a form of cutting out the middleman and helps keep costs down to us the end recipients. Maybe I'm being too simplistic.
As for the rule of law and due process we circumnavigate these at the risk of all our freedom and democracy . Quite simply the referendum needs to be ratified in parliament so that we can go forward with confidence that the real desires of the electorate are given due respect. From what I have been hearing today the only people who disagree with this are people like the smiling face of the National Front Mr N Farage et,al,

As for Guy Verhofstadt I do know where he started from but there is also a recognition in what he says regarding reform or realighment of the EEC which, influenced by the Brexit decision ,might take a different turn to what he expects.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply
john.mcn
QUOTE (mcfergus @ 8th Nov 2016, 02:34am) *
Hi john.mcn
I think I understand where you are coming from. However I do not feel so adversarial about the situation. I take the view that they send us more than we send them=they have more to lose. In my view that gives us an advantage. Free trade just cuts out all the bureaucratic interference which is a form of cutting out the middleman and helps keep costs down to us the end recipients. Maybe I'm being too simplistic.

I too believe its in their interest to have a trade deal, but while there are some members who benefit greatly from trade with the UK there are others whose export seems to be people who then send money back either in wages of child benefit. Those, mostly recent members, would i think be as problematic as they were during the talks with Cameron at the beginning of the year so our negotiators should be prepared to play hard ball.
QUOTE
As for the rule of law and due process we circumnavigate these at the risk of all our freedom and democracy . Quite simply the referendum needs to be ratified in parliament so that we can go forward with confidence that the real desires of the electorate are given due respect. From what I have been hearing today the only people who disagree with this are people like the smiling face of the National Front Mr N Farage et,al,

Lets not assume those who are shouting about Parliament having a say over article 50 are in any way interested in parliamentary sovereignty, no they are only shouting about it because they hope that the MP's will ignore the majority vote, if it was certain that they would back the people then you would not hear a peep about it.
Now if the government loses its appeal and it goes before Parliament then i would like each MP to publicly state what position they'll take and explain to their constituents why if they vote differently to them. That way if at some point there's a general election the public will know whether to trust them or not.
QUOTE
As for Guy Verhofstadt I do know where he started from but there is also a recognition in what he says regarding reform or realighment of the EEC which, influenced by the Brexit decision ,might take a different turn to what he expects.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply


You'll find it hard to find someone who was totally happy with the EU before the vote, i thought it should revert back to a common market/free trade area but then you always had those who thought its problems could be fixed by it having even more power, this comes at the expense of national governments and cant quite understand why having less democracy is good for the people, we are always better served(imho) by us having power over politicians when they're closer to home.
john.mcn

The comment at the end from the SNP spokesperson, the right wing tory jibes really need to stop, i started supporting the SNP because i presumed they were not a reactionary party catering to the lowest common denominator but it seems that with the constant phrases like that its starting to sound like a whinging student protest group.

QUOTE
Alex Neil: Brexit can transform Scotland into a more progressive country

A FORMER SNP cabinet minister has said attempts to portray the EU as a progressive force for good do not reflect reality and that Scotland is leaving "whether we like it or not".

Alex Neil, who sent shockwaves through his party last week when he revealed that he and other SNP parliamentarians had secretly voted for withdrawal, today warns that "Brexit does mean Brexit" and called on politicians, unions and civic society to "seize the moment" and embrace new opportunities to make the country fairer.

The former health secretary, who left Government in May, has written a joint-article with Labour MSP Neil Findlay in which the unlikely allies set out a left-wing case for making the most of the Leave vote, including taking a more progressive approach to trade deals, public contracts and transport.

Nicola Sturgeon has repeatedly warned of the disastrous economic, social and cultural consequences of Brexit, citing threats to employment conditions, equality laws, workplace health and safety, civil rights and efforts to tackle climate change.


However, writing in the Scottish Left Review, Mr Neil and Mr Findlay hit out at language used by "some remainers" that "seems to idolise the EU as a great force for progressive change, distributing largesse to the masses across the continent."


The pair add: "The referendum held across the UK resulted in a leave vote. Brexit will happen whether we like it or not. The democratic wishes of the people have to be respected. To do otherwise would risk a huge backlash and undermine the basic principles of our democracy.


"We need to recognise the reality that the EU is no longer the progressive force it used to be, especially in relation its pursuit of a policy of severe austerity, which is doing so much damage to the people living in the poorest countries in Europe, like Portugal and Greece.

"We also have to be cognisant of and respond appropriately to the dangers coming from the rise of the far right, both in the UK and in Europe. In France, Austria, Holland, Hungary and Slovakia they are on the march."


In 2014, Mr Findlay, who says he reluctantly voted Remain in June, moved a motion of no confidence against then-health secretary Mr Neil in the Holyrood chamber and accused him of misleading his constituents and MSPs over alleged inappropriate interference in a hospital in his constituency. Mr Neil survived the vote and relations between the pair have thawed with both key figures in a new Cross-Party Group at Holyrood which will embrace EU withdrawal.


Discussing new opportunities, the MSPs say that "Brexit does mean Brexit" but that "we’ve got to ensure it means much more than that". They argue that Scotland is set to be freed from EU state aid rules which, for example, make it difficult for Government to directly support industries like steel when they run into difficulty. They claimed that Brexit could "re-vitalise our coastal communities" as they will no longer have to comply with the Common Fisheries Policy and make it far easier to nationalise rail and ferry services.
Brexit will also mean that payment of the living wage could be a legal requirement for companies winning public contracts, something that The European Commission has banned, and that international trade deals could include provisions that would boost living standards for normal workers in the overseas territories they are signed with.
They said: "[Brexit] has to be about the politicians, trade unions and civic society in Scotland and the UK seizing the moment and using the opportunities which Brexit throws up to make our country much fairer, where social justice reigns supreme and where we end the dominance of and adherence to the market solutions that have in themselves contributed to Brexit vote in the first place."

An SNP spokesman said: "This article says the democratic wishes of the people have to be respected. We agree the democratic wishes of the people of Scotland have to be respected. There was an overwhelming vote for Remain in Scotland and therefore the SNP is determined to protect Scotland's interests from a damaging right-wing Tory Brexit."
Dykejumper
There was an overwhelming vote against Independence but of course that doesnt matter to the SNP.
Meanwhile the Selfie Queen is wasting taxpayers money on a futile legal challenge to the declaration of article 50 re Brexit.
bilbo.s
QUOTE (Dykejumper @ 9th Nov 2016, 07:17pm) *
There was an overwhelming vote against Independence but of course that doesnt matter to the SNP.
Meanwhile the Selfie Queen is wasting taxpayers money on a futile legal challenge to the declaration of article 50 re Brexit.


Don't you mean that the Wicked Witch of the West is wasting taxpayers' money on an appeal against a legal ruling of the High Court? Do you think that the vote for independence would be the same , now that many people have seen the folly of their ways, unlike you. How many more insults to Scotland are you people prepared to take? Nae real!
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Dykejumper @ 9th Nov 2016, 06:17pm) *
There was an overwhelming vote against Independence


Is 55% really an "overwhelming vote" in your opinion?

I doubt whether your Blessed St Theresa even fancies her chances in Indyref 2 after all your unionist cards have been shown up for the lies that they were. yes.gif
Dykejumper
A tweet From the Selfie Queen's twitter log , the poster is clearly not a fan.


"Waiting for Nicola Sturgeon to say Scots didn't vote for Trump - we will do everything we can to block it"
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Dykejumper @ 9th Nov 2016, 11:35pm) *
A tweet From the Selfie Queen's twitter log , the poster is clearly not a fan.


"Waiting for Nicola Sturgeon to say Scots didn't vote for Trump - we will do everything we can to block it"



You're obsessed with the FM, are you stalking her?
bilbo.s
Some facts and figures from a slightly disgruntled fellow European. Challenge away!

Ajda Slovenia
"They have to cope with a huge cut in income after we leave." -

You are talking about your tiny contribution to the EU budget which amounts on average over the last 11 years (since the 2004 EU enlargement) to

0.33% of the UK's total GDP
= 0.68% of the UK's public spending?

Over the last 5 years, the average UK's net contribution to the EU budget was about 9.5 billion per year (note: euros, NOT pounds).

Ironically, while the Brexiters keep complaining about the (very low) UK's net contributions to the EU budget, the actual EU 'parasite' is the UK!!!

The UK siphons billions of into the City via euro clearing, while not even being in the euro zone. Likewise, the UK handles a disproportionately high share of the EU-related financial services... Well, this British party at the expense of other EU members is about to end.

The EU-related financial services alone contribute more to the UK budget in taxes than the UK's net contribution to the EU budget - leaving aside all other benefits that the UK gets from being an EU member.

This is because the EU budget is actually rather small.

In 2015, the UK public budget (serving 64 million people) was 1,100 billion .

The EU budget (serving 510 million people across 28 countries) was 145 billion .

So the budget of the EU is about 8-times smaller than the budget of the UK.

The size of the EU budget is similar to that of Denmark (5.7 million people; 148 billion in 2015).

The rUK is paying more 'net donations' to Scotland (via the Barnett formula) to have access to Scotland's market of 5 million consumers than the whole UK is paying in 'net EU donations' to have access to the EU27 market of 440 million consumers.

As Boris Johnson admitted in his rare moment of honesty:

“The membership fee seems rather small for all that access.”

"All that access" includes the rights of the UK citizens which come with their automatic EU citizenship.

A VERY HARD Brexit coming, and there is nothing that the desperately weak Brave New Independent UK can do about it.

We will take your jobs, investment and related taxes. Thank you very much.
Dykejumper
Slovenia ! lovely country but their snout is firmly in the EU trough, less to go round if the UK leaves.
bilbo.s
QUOTE (Dykejumper @ 10th Nov 2016, 05:34pm) *
Slovenia ! lovely country but their snout is firmly in the EU trough, less to go round if the UK leaves.


Hahaha! Usual childish response, because you cannot dispute the facts. Typical!
bilbo.s
Sensible analysis of the situation. Is DJ about to pint out that the writer has a name which seems suspiciously Muslim?

https://aliyasminali.wordpress.com/2016/11/...rexit-to-trump/
john.mcn
Who is this Ajda from Slovenia, is he/she a concerned citizen that the UK upon taking this democratic decision making the wrong one for us or is he/she more concerned that their country pays in a fraction of what 'We' pay but receives hundreds of millions more back in return. With the 2nd highest net contributor deciding to leave this union it means countries like Slovenia will either pay more in or receive less, we the people of the UK have decided to stop picking up their countries tab at the bar. They could also be concerned that either his/her fellow country 'folk' might be returning back 'home, or that they will not be allowed to join them in the 'enriched' area known locally as Govanhell.. Thing is we do not know, those superior people decide what is facts apparently and we have to accept they have checked this Ajda from Slovenia out and he/she is a high ranking thingumyjig from some whatjimicallit.

Now onto his/her piece.

'Our' contribution, a mere 18.209 billion last year is massive compared to Slovenia's paltry 341 million, but yes there are subsidies and spending where they generously give us back our own money, and even more generously give some of it to Slovenia as well.

EU spending in the UK in 2015 was 7.458 billion while in Slovenia it was 940 million, this leaves the UK's membership to the EU at 10.751 billion and Slovenia's ...well it they received 599 more than they paid in.

Ohh and heres my source for those whishing to check
https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu

Now there is trade between the UK and EU, 'we' sell them stuff and some of 'them' sell us stuff, if the UK is a parasite for that, well i'd hate to think what this Ajda thinks of his/her own country Slovenia who is only in the EU to suck up the blood and sweat of other countries citizens hard earned taxes.

The EU budget, while small compared to some countries does not have to be as large and i'm quite surprised that superior beings does not realise it. The EU dictates and the countries pay, does the EU pay the benefits or health care for those citizens who move to the UK, does it pay for citizens pensions or does it pay for the regulations imposed on companies up n down the land. To compare the budgets of a whole state against the EU would be like comparing the wealth of a nation compared to a monarch.

The UK is subsidising Scotland, have you ran this past Jagz, he says thats all made up and Scotland paid its way, and contributes towards Londons vanity projects, but you are claiming this is untrue and your facts, sorry I meant Adjas from Slovenia facts prove this..

I look forward to the day i can rescind my EU citizenship, i wasn't born into it and never voted for it but it was imposed on me.

Adja from Slovenia may talk of a hard Brexit all she/he wants but I'd guess they dont have a clue, all those contributing countries (not the parasitic ones bleeding the EU) will not want trade barriers put up and their products getting even more expensive and uncompetetive. A deal will be done and while not everyone will be happy (adja most certainly wont) it will be better for business and people when its done, the EU is after all about breaking down barriers.
john.mcn
QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 10th Nov 2016, 08:02pm) *
Sensible analysis of the situation. Is DJ about to pint out that the writer has a name which seems suspiciously Muslim?

https://aliyasminali.wordpress.com/2016/11/...rexit-to-trump/


I take it that Bilbo agrees with the views of the author he links to and that any future Scottish referendum will have measures in place to prevent a YES win

QUOTE
The normal safeguards around a referendum proposing far-reaching constitutional change were not instituted (thresholds for turnout, and for the required majority for change).

bilbo.s
http://money.cnn.com/2016/11/08/news/econo...lion/index.html


More austerity coming our way. You ain't seen nothin' yet!
john.mcn

I suppose we'll just have to accept that Bilbo once again refuses to answer questions, odd that he accuses others of doing this very thing.

Ohh and his challenge was swept away as easy as leaves in the wind, maybe next time rather than posting others thoughts and somehow making claim to them he might post his own, back of a postage stamp will do wink.gif
Dykejumper
Ireland have knocked back La Sturgeon's request for Brexit talks, no doubt her people will be searching desperatley for some other EU people she can visit and relate her Calimero speel.
bilbo.s
QUOTE (Dykejumper @ 11th Nov 2016, 09:55pm) *
Ireland have knocked back La Sturgeon's request for Brexit talks, no doubt her people will be searching desperatley for some other EU people she can visit and relate her Calimero speel.


Calimero speel? wacko.gif
wombat
QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 11th Nov 2016, 11:40pm) *
Calimero speel? wacko.gif



laugh.gif
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 11th Nov 2016, 10:40pm) *
Calimero speel? wacko.gif



Now now guys, DJ will be doing his own Calimero spiel soon enough when MP's block the triggering of article 50.

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-11-11/increas...ing-article-50/

It's an injustice! It is! laugh.gif
john.mcn
17 million P'eed off winning voters being ignored by parliament is a helluva lot of UKIP politicians elected at the next election. Almost as many people in Scotland voted leave as for SNP at the last election, carefull what you wish for Jagz because it might just be the worst thing for the SNP

I also like to point out that EU citizens were not allowed to vote in the EU ref but were allowed in the Holyrood one, so that might mean more Scots voted leave than the SNP
.
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 12th Nov 2016, 12:49pm) *
carefull what you wish for Jagz because it might just be the worst thing for the SNP


No wishing on my part John, i was only reporting what was in the news, and it is you who should have been careful what you wished for.
john.mcn
So do you often smile when the majority vote is overturned by politicians? 1979 must have been a right laugh for you then
wombat
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 12th Nov 2016, 12:49pm) *
17 million P'eed off winning voters being ignored by parliament is a helluva lot of UKIP politicians elected at the next election.

quit complainin john ,getting shot of 17 million whinging poms is

a bargain any day of the week. laugh.gif laugh.gif


.
bilbo.s
Mr McNasty obviously does not believe in parliamentary democracy, either Westminster or Holyrood. Mob rule is clearly more his style, but English mob not Scottish of course. wacko.gif
john.mcn
Ohh the irony, you are the one who has been the nasty one, anyone can read your posts and see for themselves who dishes out abuse on an almost daily basis.
Not living in the UK you may have missed the parliamentary democracy that gave the people the referendum in the first place, none of the Bremoaners or MP's seemed to have an objection to the government telling the public that it would implement their decision, now that they've lost its all we want another vote, the public were lied to and plenty of other reasons they lost, their last grasp at this is the hope that MP's will reject the democratic will of the people.
You do not give a rats ass for democracy, go and ask your neighbors what it was like when the fascist dictator ignored the people in your adopted country, see what they think of your views that the voting public should be over ruled by our 'political elite'

What kind of mind comes up with the phrase 'mob rule' when they are talking about the winning side in a referendum.. Every time you drone on about ignoring the vote you are contradicting everything about a possible future Scottish independence referendum where YES wins, the funny thing about it is that you are oblivious to it.
john.mcn
QUOTE (wombat)
quit complainin john ,getting shot of 17 million whinging poms is

a bargain any day of the week. laugh.gif laugh.gif


The EU is being shot of 16 million whingers but keeping hold of those in Spain laugh.gif
wombat
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 13th Nov 2016, 12:48am) *
The EU is being shot of 16 million whingers but keeping hold of those in Spain laugh.gif


laugh.gif laugh.gif
angel
I see in the news today , that Farage was in Trump Towers

speaking with the Trump aid's , "aint that cosy "

seemingly he must wait until Trump speaks with the UK PM

or maybe they don't want to use Emails .

Birds of a feather ,EH


ooooooooooops meant to put this in the Trump topic .
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 12th Nov 2016, 03:50pm) *
So do you often smile when the majority vote is overturned by politicians? 1979 must have been a right laugh for you then


Actually i was laughing at DJ, and it was more a knowing grin than a laugh in 1979
bilbo.s
http://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/1488...the_UK_is_over/


Amazed that the Herald actually printed this!
DannyH
QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 14th Nov 2016, 03:07pm) *
http://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/1488...the_UK_is_over/


Amazed that the Herald actually printed this!


I think what is amazing is that newspaper journalists think that anybody gives a toss about what they say. Their livelihood depends on making up stories on a daily basis. Now we have one making the case that because Trump is now President of the USA, this should make the case for Scottish Independence easier! So let us be sensible about this. Is this journalist inferring that if Hilary Clinton had won the American Presidential election, Scotland's case for Independence would have been diminished? Away and bile yer heid.

I notice that you always post links that you think support your views. What I have noticed though is that you are VERY selective. For example you posted a link to the New European newspaper when the conman, The Wee Dug had a page full of tripe which suppoerted your view. However you didn't post a link to the same newspaper when Tony Blair featured on the front page extolling the virtue of his treatise opposing Brexit. He has the same view as you regarding Brexit. Why didn't you refer to his treatise?

So the strategy now adopted by the SNP is to ignore giving the electorate any policies on such matters as the economy and currency. Just concentrate on Brexit and Trump and tell the Scottish electorate that is sufficient reason for Scottish Independence.

By the way before you come back and say my post has nothing to do with the UK referendum. Tell Nicola that.

Also if Scotland gets Independence will you be a Scottish pensioer or will you be a British pensioner? If you will be a Scottish pensioner, what currency will you be paid in? I remember in the 1949 going on holiday in England. When I went into buy anything with Scottish notes, it cost me extra. Same thing might happen to you. I know that was a stupid question to ask you because even two years after the Scottish referendum the SNP don't know what currency we would use, so how would you know? You could always ask that conman, The Wee Dug. He seems to know everything. It doesn't matter to him what currency will be in use. He gets the mugs who follow him to send money directly to his bank account. I am sure that although you are a devout follower of him, you are not stupid enough to send him money directly from your bank account????

Danny Harris
wombat
QUOTE (DannyH @ 14th Nov 2016, 08:54pm) *
I remember in the 1949 going on holiday in England. When I went into buy anything with Scottish notes, it cost me extra.

Danny Harris


laugh.gif laugh.gif
Dykejumper
Danny, In the event of Independence I believe the Westminster Govt would remain liable for all existing pensioners.Its not clear how many years would pass before a Scottish Govt would take on the responsibility.
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Dykejumper @ 14th Nov 2016, 11:57pm) *
Danny, In the event of Independence I believe the Westminster Govt would remain liable for all existing pensioners.Its not clear how many years would pass before a Scottish Govt would take on the responsibility.


Until the ones who paid into the UK system died off.
Dykejumper
'Until the ones who paid into the UK system died off.'

Cant be as simple as that otherwise the rest of the UK would be liable for Scottish people
who paid into the UK system for e.g. one month before Independence Day.
angel
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 15th Nov 2016, 08:44am) *
Until the ones who paid into the UK system died off.


meanwhile Jagz , while waiting for those people who paid into the system die off , there will be thousand much younger who will still contribute , so the same situation remains , not unless you suggest that expats, and those who would immigrate just stay in Scotland.

I'm only wondering how you would solve this problem . smile.gif
wombat
QUOTE (angel @ 15th Nov 2016, 04:58pm) *
I'm only wondering how you would solve this problem . smile.gif


happy.gif back to Victorian times and cheap labour ? yes.gif
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Dykejumper @ 15th Nov 2016, 10:46am) *
'Until the ones who paid into the UK system died off.'

Cant be as simple as that otherwise the rest of the UK would be liable for Scottish people
who paid into the UK system for e.g. one month before Independence Day.



Do you mean if someone has just left school and started work the month before independence?

If you do then no, the UK treasury wouldn't be liable for their pension the Scottish treasury would, but people who have already retired and those who would be of pensionable age on independence day would receive the full UK state pension, others who are younger who have paid in for ten or twenty years would have the shortfall made up by the SG.

This was explained before the referendum by the then UK pensions minister Steve Webb. unsure.gif

QUOTE (angel @ 15th Nov 2016, 04:58pm) *
meanwhile Jagz , while waiting for those people who paid into the system die off , there will be thousand much younger who will still contribute , so the same situation remains , not unless you suggest that expats, and those who would immigrate just stay in Scotland.

I'm only wondering how you would solve this problem . smile.gif


See my reply to DJ Angel.
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