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john.mcn
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 21st Jun 2016, 09:08pm) *
Put Party Politics aside if you will, and look out for a five-star performance from Scotland's own Ruth Davidson. Her everyday rival at Hollyrood agrees @NicolaSturgeon. yes.gif



There has been lies and BS all along from both sides, does anyone really believe Osbourne when he claimed each household would be 4,300k worse off.
This issue over the number of EU laws in the UK is a smokescreen is it not, doesn't every single law passed in the UK have to comply with EU law. The UK upon signing up to the EEC agreed that EU law will have primacy over UK law, no law passed in the UK can contravene EU law.

I hear that some Bremainers are saying that even if the UK public votes to leave either Cameron should ignore the vote or that as most MP's are pro EU they should vote against enacting article 50. This is because this referendum we're having is not legally binding but advisory..
Tally Rand
QUOTE (DannyH @ 21st Jun 2016, 10:52pm) *
Hello again Ashfield

Just one or two comments in response to your post, which I hope will not come across as being confrontational.

You are correct. You did not say, "anyone voting". You did say, "anyone wanting". Now in the context in which you said that, my understanding is that, as the people you were referring to are politicians, then to get them, if they are who you want, you have to vote for them.

You are absolutely correct that it is no business of mine whether you are a good socialist or a bad socialist. But that then raises the question, why did you tell us all that you are a Socialist?

I don't know what a Socialist is anymore. I used to think I did, but over the years my experience of 'Socialists' has been confusing to say the least. I have been on the factory floor where the 'Socialist' convenor has called on us to walk out on strike, only to find on the 'big' day of the strike, he is on official union duty, while the mugs are out on the street.

Tony Blair, Labour Prime Minister - Socialist, or war criminal?

Regards

Danny

I was once a left wing socialist, union organizer etc. until I took a hard look at the "Socialists" I shared ideology with; Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Kim Jong (Men Tali) Ill, Josef Gobbles, and a whole host of democratic absurdities. Apart from Buddhism every other "ISM" including socialism has led to death on a monumental scale.

Socialists are always ranting about democracy; that is always the first victim of their regimes.
Kemedian
Click to view attachment


The above chart has the result split almost 50/50. It collates the results of 162 separate opinion polls.

It also factors out the 'undecideds', who still make up as much as 10% with only 24 hours until decision time.

There is an interesting analysis to accompany it that can be found here.

The equivalent Scottish 'poll of polls', which suggests a bigger gap as well as a far bigger degree of indecision of as much as 25%, looks like this:
Click to view attachment
http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/sh...ave-the-eu#line

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Kemedian
It's not about Immigration; both camps are in favour and neither is proposing to reduce it.

It's not about the Economy; Remain wants to protect a successful UK economy but doesn't write-off our independent prospects, Leave expects a UK budget boost in the range of 6bn-9bn but cannot guarantee that the economy won't suffer.

It's about a power struggle - what Politician doesn't want it? It's about sovereignty and whether that is national or international. It's about control and who the public entrusts it to.

My personal opinion is that the Leave vote is generally motivated not by hope but by cynicism, which is unfortunate because in effect this reduces opportunity for Politicians to work together and maximise the potential of cross-border relations. If every country in Europe decides to 'take back control', then what? Let me tell you, we'll wish we hadn't left and be exploring the benefits of a more united Europe again, because no system is perfect!

As a Remain voter I will go as far to say that as part of the ongoing EU reform process I would like nation states who have contributed more financially to be attributed more representatively in Parliament.

Independence is not Political progress. I hope the EU remains united with a bold UK presence arguing for better change and able to make it happen. This is my viewpoint, but the British people shall have their say and get their way, and I respect that. If we don't vote for a European Union, well at least we voted for a United Kingdom.
zascot
Not getting involved in this as it does not affect me and I think that only people affected should have a say but I watched an interesting programe on where the money is going at the bookies and it looks as it will be remain in Europe. Some big bets going on !00k from 1 guy.
ashfield
QUOTE (Tally Rand @ 22nd Jun 2016, 09:53am) *
I was once a left wing socialist, union organizer etc. until I took a hard look at the "Socialists" I shared ideology with; Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Kim Jong (Men Tali) Ill, Josef Gobbles, and a whole host of democratic absurdities. Apart from Buddhism every other "ISM" including socialism has led to death on a monumental scale.

Socialists are always ranting about democracy; that is always the first victim of their regimes.


Thanks Tally Rand for that helpful interjection, you are right, much better to believe in nothing rolleyes.gif

I should, however, point out that what I actually said in the offending post 1029 was "I consider myself to be a socialist". Please rest assured that for the foreseeable future, I will stick to just considering death on a monumental scale eyebrow.gif
Dykejumper
They lied to the people last time and they are lying now, in the near future the Brexiteers will at least be able to say "We told you"

Fool us once, shame on you; fool us twice, shame on us.
john.mcn


laugh.gif

Kemedian
Cluck sake. rolleyes.gif
carmella
I think the UK will vote IN, although I voted out already, but they do say (if you believe the polsters) that Scotland will vote remain -it's in the lap of the Gawds right now.
Kemedian
Click to view attachment
john.mcn

I thought the scaremongering was bad during the Scottish referendum but bloody hell they've stepped it up this time..
I do believe the EU is gearing up to be a superstate, with every new treaty a little bit more sovereignty is stolen...i mean shared, thats the word isn't it, like when a junkie takes your dvd player he's sharing it.
They have a currency, external borders, a judiciary, a parliament, police force, embassies, a president and i'm guessing an army in the future, they already have the EU battlegroup that consists of 18 battalions and reasons will be found to increase its size, history shows this is what usually happens.
Alex MacPhee
The EU does not have a President.

It has some committees which have presidents, who function as chairmen.

But the EU does not have a President. (Juncker is president of a committee, not the EU.)
carmella
All those bureaucrats in the EU for me, nameless individuals who tell us what to do and who we didn't even vote in - it's ridiculous and many small businesses went to the wall within the first year of us joining - OUT I say.
Alex MacPhee
I voted in the last European Parliament election, didn't you?
john.mcn
QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 22nd Jun 2016, 10:58pm) *
The EU does not have a President.

It has some committees which have presidents, who function as chairmen.

But the EU does not have a President. (Juncker is president of a committee, not the EU.)



He is the president of the European Commission which is the body who draft EU laws and uphold the treaties, it is the highest body in the EU and is effectively the EU government.. Chairman of a committee he is not
Alex MacPhee
The president of the EU Commission is not the president of the EU. The EU Commission is not the "highest body" in the EU. It is not "effectively the EU government", that's the EU Parliament.

The EU does not have a president.
Dave Grieve
QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 23rd Jun 2016, 07:49am) *
The president of the EU Commission is not the president of the EU. The EU Commission is not the "highest body" in the EU. It is not "effectively the EU government", that's the EU Parliament.

The EU does not have a president.


The good thing about a President is that he/she would be accountable. From afar all I can see is that European citizens/countries are ruled by faceless dictators.

WOULD YOU BUY A USED CAR FROM THIS MAN????
DODGY DAVE, PROMISES MAN

Click to view attachment
john.mcn
QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 23rd Jun 2016, 05:49am) *
The president of the EU Commission is not the president of the EU. The EU Commission is not the "highest body" in the EU. It is not "effectively the EU government", that's the EU Parliament.

The EU does not have a president.


No, there is a difference between a government and parliament, a government runs the country and a parliament is a body of elected representatives...mmmm that sounds familiar..
Junker, and the previous President Barosso seemed to get quite a lot of press time for a simple chairman of a committee.
Since the Lisbon treaty the EU commission holds Executive power in the EU.. Now you may argue the point of what its called over what it is but i just need to look at the Scottish government who until the SNP gained power was officially referred to as the executive, as far as i'm aware their role didn't change and al that happened was they just called it what is was.
john.mcn
QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 23rd Jun 2016, 06:05am) *
WOULD YOU BUY A USED CAR FROM THIS MAN????
DODGY DAVE, PROMISES MAN

Click to view attachment


We're forever hearing that a vote to leave is a vote for Boris, Gove etc, using that logic that surely means a vote to stay is a vote for Cameron and Osborne...
ashfield
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 23rd Jun 2016, 07:57am) *
We're forever hearing that a vote to leave is a vote for Boris, Gove etc, using that logic that surely means a vote to stay is a vote for Cameron and Osborne...


Nice attempt at misdirection.

We already have Cameron and Osbourne. A vote to leave will strengthen the position of the others within the Tory party and consequently their influence on the policies and direction of this government.
Dykejumper
Remain is now at 1/6 to win,effectively its all over according to the Bookies. I am looking forward to 'Call me Dave's speech from outside number 10, it will be out of the cringe top drawer.
Dave Grieve
I take it the UN, America, Russia, European Union, African Union and all others concerned with free and honest elections, referendums "etc." have observers at the voting stations to insure there is no repeat of the voter manipulation and miscounting involved in the last referendum held?????
carmella
QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 23rd Jun 2016, 12:37am) *
I voted in the last European Parliament election, didn't you?


You don't say who your question was aimed at, but since it followed on the heel of my post, one assumes you were asking me.

No is the answer I did not vote, for people I know nothing about.
john.mcn
Bloody hell voting leave is used by some as indirect support for Johnson and Grove. Using that same argument i point out that voting to remain is voicing support for Cameron and Osborne and i'm misdirecting laugh.gif..

Believe it or not but the Tory party is a democratic institution, if Cameron resigns if the UK public back the leave campaign then there will be an election to see who replaces him as leader of the Conservative party, as most Conservative MP's support remain there is no guarantee that they or the party members will support Johnson when he stands, he most likely will not stand unopposed and most members may choose that person rather than Johnson. Even if he did win and became PM he may not have the backing of the house and a motion of no confidence could force another general election.. All ifs and buts, but then so is any hints that the 'right wing' will seize control of the tories..
carmella
John what a terrific post, I couldn't have put it better myself, well said.

I have terrific pains in my right hand so typing is hard right now, x-ray results I'm told tomorrow after 4pm - personally I think I have arthritis as it's sore all day and swollen but I've been told since it's worse first thing in the morning it might by arthritis - well whatever it is, I need relief from it - driving me mad, as is this debate rolleyes.gif ohmy.gif
bilbo.s
Time to wheel out Ruthie with info. on how the postal vote has gone?
john.mcn
Looks like bremainers are in good company laugh.gif wink.gif

Click to view attachment
bilbo.s
Spotted on FB:-

friday's going to be amazing! i'm going to wake up in my Union Jack jim-jams to the sound of a squadron of Spitfires racing overhead and leaving a trail of hot buttered crumpets behind them

I'll run to the corner shop past all the british children who are laughing and squealing with excitement as they make a beautiful statue of the queen out of happy wriggling bulldog puppies - with two corgis for her eyebrows!

bunting flutters everywhere and the man from the betting shop steps into the street - "guess what! England just won the World Cup & The Ashes & The Grand National and here's the best bit - Boris put a bet on it for everyone! you're all MILLIONAIRES!!!"

the red arrows fly overhead dropping fish and chips as i walk into the corner shop, get my morning paper and go to the counter. "how much please?" i say to the asian lad there. "1 pence, everything in the whole shop now costs just 1p!" he laughs, "leave it on the counter, i'm off back to pakistan - we all are!"

and he's right! outside in the streets jolly old nigel farage is leading a huge crowd of happy foreigners - turks, poles, romanians, syrians - there's even a few English people with heavy suntans mixed up in there! nigel's playing Rule Britannia on a long pipe, rather like the pipe that takes the gas into your oven, and they're all following and smiling and talking foreign, bless them!

just then boris flies overhead in a concorde made of Bank of England gold - "don't worry!" he laughs "I've cut out all the bits the French made!" and with that he crashes into the ground at 1200 miles an hour, along with the economy, the country and all the dozy nostalgic foreigner-fearing bloomwits who fell for his Nonsense.

grow up. wake up.

IN
bilbo.s
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 23rd Jun 2016, 09:07pm) *
Looks like bremainers are in good company laugh.gif wink.gif

Click to view attachment


You of course are in much better company.
john.mcn
QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 23rd Jun 2016, 07:24pm) *
You of course are in much better company.


Well i dont think theres many UK citizens out there many consider directly, and indirectly responsible for the deaths of millions and the de-stabilizing of a whole region, but hey every day is learning day so i'm always eager to be put right thumbup.gif
JAGZ1876
Well i exercised my democratic right and voted IN, how about the rest of you?

We could have our own exit poll. wink.gif
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (carmella @ 23rd Jun 2016, 04:31pm) *
You don't say who your question was aimed at, but since it followed on the heel of my post, one assumes you were asking me.

No is the answer I did not vote, for people I know nothing about.

You talked about the EU being bureaucrats "we didn't even vote in". That you chose not to exercise your vote is up to you, but it does not mean the rest of us didn't exercise our right to vote, and it does not mean you did not have a vote. People who do not vote, it has been observed, are not well placed to complain about the outcome.
Kemedian
Glasgow votes Remain (67%).
Kemedian
Scotland votes Remain.

Northern Ireland votes Remain.

England votes Leave.

Wales votes Leave.

In a close vote...

The UK votes Leave (52%)
.
Kemedian
Sturgeon - "Scotland's future lies within the EU."

In other words, not within the UK.

This Unionist is torn.

I argued strongly for EU membership, but truth be told I felt less strongly about it than I do about the UK. I would need serious persuasion to vote as Sturgeon would have me vote in any future Scottish Indyref, if she were to make it a choice of Unions, UK or EU.

Some Yes voters have clearly voted Leave, unless all No voters did. So, in a future Scottish Indyref I think that the UK would triumph over the EU, if that's how Sturgeon would choose to frame the referendum by lumping in EU membership as a bonus of Scottish independence. I think No would win again in Scotland by a bigger score.

This No voter is, however, this morning undecided. Is EU better than UK membership for Scotland? I honestly don't know, having argued for both.

Commentators are criticising Cameron for a huge Political miscalculation. Could Sturgeon be about to make her big mistake by pursuing EU membership via Scottish Independence? It could be argued that EU economic austerity is more severe than here in the UK.

This is not the post-result post I had prepared, but nevertheless, congratulations to Leave and all who voted for it. In these sort of debates, I go with the Union. So, if presented with a choice of two Unions, both of which I support, I am in unknown territory, as most of us are this morning.

The UK has now to leave the EU. There's no going back. How I wish it wasn't so, as does 48% of UK and 63% of Scottish voters, but the people have spoken. I have more confidence in an independent UK than an independent Scotland, but I am of course disappointed by this historic and groundbreaking result for the Scotand, the UK, Europe and beyond.

Let me say once more,

CONGRATULATIONS VOTE LEAVE.
Betsy2009
I do hope that Nicola doesn't push for another referendum any time soon. I think this all needs to settle down first, giving it a chance to see how it goes. Tough times ahead for all politicians but the UK people have spoken and, as far as I know, we're still living in a democracy.

PS: I'm off to bed now. Good night all.
albageorgia
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 24th Jun 2016, 06:11am) *
Sturgeon - "Scotland's future lies within the EU."

In other words, not within the UK.

This Unionist is torn.

I argued strongly for EU membership, but truth be told I felt less strongly about it than I do about the UK. I would need serious persuasion to vote as Sturgeon would have me vote in any future Scottish Indyref, if she were to make it a choice of Unions, UK or EU.

Some Yes voters have clearly voted Leave, unless all No voters did. So, in a future Scottish Indyref I think that the UK would triumph over the EU, if that's how Sturgeon would choose to frame the referendum by lumping in EU membership as a bonus of Scottish independence. I think No would win again in Scotland by a bigger score.

This No voter is, however, this morning undecided. Is EU better than UK membership for Scotland? I honestly don't know, having argued for both.

Commentators are criticising Cameron for a huge Political miscalculation. Could Sturgeon be about to make her big mistake by pursuing EU membership via Scottish Independence? It could be argued that EU economic austerity is more severe than here in the UK.

This is not the post-result post I had prepared, but nevertheless, congratulations to Leave and all who voted for it. In these sort of debates, I go with the Union. So, if presented with a choice of two Unions, both of which I support, I am in unknown territory, as most of us are this morning.

The UK has now to leave the EU. There's no going back. How I wish it wasn't so, as does 48% of UK and 63% of Scottish voters, but the people have spoken. I have more confidence in an independent UK than an independent Scotland, but I am of course disappointed by this historic and groundbreaking result for the Scotand, the UK, Europe and beyond.

Let me say once more,

CONGRATULATIONS VOTE LEAVE.


Gracious in defeat, excellent
bilbo.s
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 24th Jun 2016, 07:11am) *
Sturgeon - "Scotland's future lies within the EU."

In other words, not within the UK.

This Unionist is torn.

I argued strongly for EU membership, but truth be told I felt less strongly about it than I do about the UK. I would need serious persuasion to vote as Sturgeon would have me vote in any future Scottish Indyref, if she were to make it a choice of Unions, UK or EU.

Some Yes voters have clearly voted Leave, unless all No voters did. So, in a future Scottish Indyref I think that the UK would triumph over the EU, if that's how Sturgeon would choose to frame the referendum by lumping in EU membership as a bonus of Scottish independence. I think No would win again in Scotland by a bigger score.

This No voter is, however, this morning undecided. Is EU better than UK membership for Scotland? I honestly don't know, having argued for both.

Commentators are criticising Cameron for a huge Political miscalculation. Could Sturgeon be about to make her big mistake by pursuing EU membership via Scottish Independence? It could be argued that EU economic austerity is more severe than here in the UK.

This is not the post-result post I had prepared, but nevertheless, congratulations to Leave and all who voted for it. In these sort of debates, I go with the Union. So, if presented with a choice of two Unions, both of which I support, I am in unknown territory, as most of us are this morning.

The UK has now to leave the EU. There's no going back. How I wish it wasn't so, as does 48% of UK and 63% of Scottish voters, but the people have spoken. I have more confidence in an independent UK than an independent Scotland, but I am of course disappointed by this historic and groundbreaking result for the Scotand, the UK, Europe and beyond.

Let me say once more,

CONGRATULATIONS VOTE LEAVE.


Pathetic ****, as usual.
Betsy2009
Behave yourself, bilbo!!!
john.mcn
And now all those YES supporters who were campaigning for a remain will show their true intentions by pushing for another referendum in Scotland...
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 24th Jun 2016, 08:32am) *
And now all those YES supporters who were campaigning for a remain will show their true intentions by pushing for another referendum in Scotland...



Not true.

Slowly Slowly Catchy Monkey yes.gif
Kemedian
PM David Cameron is to stand down.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36615028
bilbo.s
QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 24th Jun 2016, 09:31am) *
Behave yourself, bilbo!!!


Och, away back to bed, as promised!
ashfield
Share markets have dropped, the pound has dropped like a stone and, as expected, we have the spectre of Boris as PM.

I voted to remain, I'm now voting to leave.........this discussion.
Betsy2009
QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 24th Jun 2016, 08:54am) *
Och, away back to bed, as promised!


I tried. Didn't work. Sorry!
bilbo.s
QUOTE (ashfield @ 24th Jun 2016, 10:02am) *
Share markets have dropped, the pound has dropped like a stone and, as expected, we have the spectre of Boris as PM.

I voted to remain, I'm now voting to leave.........this discussion.


Ash, I am seriously considering leaving this board , to go elsewhere where I can vent my wrath.


Kemedian
Suck it up, bilbo.
Betsy2009
You behave yourself too, Kem.

Can't we just have one day of everyone being nice to each other?
Dave Grieve
Can I start the niceness by saying, for the first time in my life I am very proud of the English thumbup.gif
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