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GG
Despite what appears to be a reasonable lead in opinion polls, it is increasingly clear that major figures within the parties represented by the pro-union campaign are becoming nervous about the result Scottish independence referendum on 18 September 2014.

In a front page article in this week's Sunday Times, under the headline 'Tories fear Scots will break away', senior Conservative figures north and south of the border voiced concerns that the anti-independence group Better Together was "too negative and lacked momentum". David Cameron's own election guru, Lynton Crosby, is mentioned in the article as saying that the Better Together is "so feeble that the future of the UK is in doubt", and the expert voting forecaster made the unexpected prediction that an SNP victory was "not only possible but likely".

The article also mentioned Scottish secretary Alistair Carmichael and Boris Johnson, the London mayor, who are among a group of senior Tories who believe that many undecided voters may be swayed by lingering antipathy towards the Thatcher government's destruction of heavy industry in Scotland, leading wavering voters to choose 'Yes' in the referendum.

The increasingly outspoken condemnation of Better Together's pro-union strategy is also fuelling tensions in the cross-party group, with much of the focus of resentment coming to rest on the Better Together leadership of Alistair Darling. The former Labour chancellor has opted for a strategy based on highlighting the alleged economic and financial risks of separation; however, many commentators now assess the strategy – dubbed 'Project Fear' – as damaging to the unionist cause, at the same time isolating large swathes of voters who see the message as predominantly anti-Scottish.

The Sunday Times article also cited a poll this month which suggested that the pro-independence Yes Scotland campaign is closing the gap in the race for referendum votes, cutting the 'No' lead from 19% to 14%, while a recent poll for the newspaper put the 'No' lead at just nine points.

In a related article last week, a leaked advertising agency report commissioned by Better Together has suggested that the unionist group needs to move swiftly away from its damagingly negative strategy. The major London-based agency highlighted one prominent danger of the negative campaign being that voters might associate a 'No' vote with saying 'No' to Scotland.

What do you think: is the Union already lost? Or is the Better Together lead now largely unassailable with nine months to go?

GG.
GG
Just posting a reply to check this topic. Unfortunately, it had to be recovered as it was corrupted and had to be reposted as new.

Apologies to those who had replied! sad.gif

GG.
TeeHeeHee
Happy Birthday Martin ( Click to view attachment ) biggrin.gif
john.mcn
I just hope they keep doing what they are doing.

If you were in a dead end job and the opportunity came along for a different job with more room to better yourself, would you consider it? How about if you then went to your boss and explained your situation but instead of reassuring you things will get better, in fact told you things would get worse and how you would never make it in the other job, pointing out all your failing and threatening to give bad references making life as difficult as he could if you left. I gotta ask would you take it, would you walk back to your desk with your head low and tell yourself how right he is and what a failure your are?
That is exactly what is happening with our nation, and the worse thing is 'the boss' has the 'grasses' within the workforce to keep that drip drip of negativity coming.

As the saying goes you are what you settle for, and if you settle for a 2nd class citizen of the world then dont be surprised when you get treated as one.
Dylan
We Scots are not and will never be second class Citizens.!
bilbo.s
Good analogy, John. Eagerly awaiting the response of the NO camp.
Ruchazie Rat
QUOTE (GG @ 1st Jan 2014, 05:18pm) *
... The article also mentioned Scottish secretary Alistair Carmichael and Boris Johnson, the London mayor, who are among a group of senior Tories who believe that many undecided voters may be swayed by lingering antipathy towards the Thatcher government's destruction of heavy industry in Scotland, leading wavering voters to choose 'Yes' in the referendum.


And why not? Isn`t that good reason enough? What was the excuse for such whimsical behaviour, anyway? A self-indulgent economic-social-cultural experiment inflicted by the-then vain glorious leader herself. A "show of power". Cracking the whip for the sake of it to show who`s the boss. And let us not forget its` ultimate inevitable culmination... deploying the police as a pseudo-military force against striking miners. Working class n*gger, know thy place, right enough.

Everything we`ve endured for the last 34 years has all been the legacy of one action. And one action alone. Our decision to hide up the back of the couch last time round in 79. Everything inflicted upon us since has been a "gratuity" from our High & Mighty Southern Masters for staying put in their Empire -- sorry -- Union. (Whoops! Forgot, they don`t have an Empire no more!).

Anyone really eager to make the same short-sighted kamikaze mistake again?

yes.gif yes.gif yes.gif
Dylan
The Politics of Nationalism. !

Elitist who consider them selves cleverer than anyone who disagrees.!
rumcdonald
QUOTE (Dylan @ 1st Jan 2014, 01:08pm) *
We Scots are not and will never be second class Citizens.!


The Scots went out into the world and made it what it is. Look at all they have achieved! The Union needs them. Stronger together. Better together.
Ruchazie Rat
QUOTE (Dylan @ 1st Jan 2014, 06:19pm) *
The Politics of Nationalism. !

Elitist who consider them selves cleverer than anyone who disagrees.!


I believe Nationalists, by their very nature, will be voting for independence. Buy yourself a dictionary in the January sales and see what I mean.

Sorry to wee on you again but.... the British themselves are/were very fanatical about nationalism. Grotesqueified it into a brutal global Empire, if I recall correctly. Check it out in an (ancient) history book. If you can find one. Though it will probably be a decrepit old mouldy rag like The Dead Sea Scrolls. Those bloated faded sepia pink blobs are what USED TO BE The British Empire. But, alas, no more! Or a hop into a De Lorean and put that pedal-to-the-metal! Relive the dream!!

The only political "elite" in Britain I am aware of are the self-appointed bloodsucking South East England parasites-by-birth who gorge themselves and their kin through the class system and our oil. And, of course, the Labour scabs who sold out and joined them. Which, of course, brings us up to speed on where we now stand viz-a-viz the referendum. And how it will, as we can now begin to smell, now turn out.

What a great day! 2014 at last! You can almost hear the clock counting down to the end of THEIR Union. Like it did with their Empire...
thumbup.gif thumbup.gif thumbup.gif
anonymous
Seems to me that both sides are as bad as each other the no campaign with their fear campaign and the yes campaign who see Independance as a panacea for all ills.

I think the situation was best summed up by Rab C on the Hogmanay show last night - "2014 will be the year the great Scottish people will decide if they are to be shafted by Westminster or Holyrood"

Many a true word spoken in jest.
john.mcn
QUOTE (Dylan @ 1st Jan 2014, 06:08pm) *
We Scots are not and will never be second class Citizens.!


C'mon Dylan stop with the cutting i said 2nd class citizen of the world and you know it, with no voice in the world, no seat at the UN where the people WE vote for can discuss or debate the issues affecting the world, that is exactly what we are.
When Scots have done so much for mankind and the world why on earth do you oppose it having the same standing in the world as say San Marino, who with a population of less than Irvine has both a seat at the United Nations and the Council of Europe?
Guest
I'll be voting no, All Alex Salmond wants is to be a big fish in a small pond instead of a small fish in a large Loch. He doesn't care about us or Scotland.
john.mcn
QUOTE (red rooster @ 1st Jan 2014, 06:59pm) *
I think the situation was best summed up by Rab C on the Hogmanay show last night - "2014 will be the year the great Scottish people will decide if they are to be shafted by Westminster or Holyrood"

Many a true word spoken in jest.


And guess which one Scots, by themselves, can vote out of office?
anonymous
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 1st Jan 2014, 07:07pm) *
And guess which one Scots, by themselves, can vote out of office?


The devil we know?
Dylan
QUOTE (Dylan @ 1st Jan 2014, 06:19pm) *
The Politics of Nationalism. !

Elitist who consider them selves cleverer than anyone who disagrees.!


I think the subsequent Posts have somewhat proved my point. rolleyes.gif biggrin.gif

To think they want to run Scotland under King Eck .!!!
Dylan
QUOTE (red rooster @ 1st Jan 2014, 06:59pm) *
Seems to me that both sides are as bad as each other the no campaign with their fear campaign and the yes campaign who see Independance as a panacea for all ills.

I think the situation was best summed up by Rab C on the Hogmanay show last night - "2014 will be the year the great Scottish people will decide if they are to be shafted by Westminster or Holyrood"

Many a true word spoken in jest.


Where Rab C is concerned,should it not be " Many a true word spoken in vest " ?
bilbo.s
First good comment from Dylan. Well done ! tongue.gif
wombat
tongue.gif or is he "stringin"' us along rolleyes.gif
DavidT
Completely off topic, but I particularly enjoyed the music in these videos.
Back on topic...I liked the Rab C Nesbit quote whether it be in jest or in vest laugh.gif it has a ring of truth about it.
John mcn. Spot on with your job analogy.
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Dylan @ 1st Jan 2014, 07:46pm) *
To think they want to run Scotland under King Eck .!!!


Of course you want King Dave to rule over us until he abdicates in favour of King Boris laugh.gif
wombat
cool.gif
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (rumcdonald @ 1st Jan 2014, 06:38pm) *
The Scots went out into the world and made it what it is. Look at all they have achieved! The Union needs them. Stronger together. Better together.


I think you will find most Scots went out into the World because the Union did not want them, what they achieved was in spite of the Union not because of it.

And Dylan, one of many examples of Scots being treated as second class being the Highland clearances, sheep before people.

Stronger together. Better together............You're having a laugh.
*Russ*
Why do we want independence?
Well for me personally, I can see no other way to get the tories out of Scotland forever. As was stated in previous posts we are 2nd class citizens to the South of England.
I know there will be problems if we get independence...but it is not uncommon now to have a new country/state come into being.
WE WOULD BE A GREAT NATION
eidas
Reading comments from family and friends in Scotland, I would ascertain the union is already lost.
Having said that, folks seem to change their mind a number of times when it comes to referendums. The strength of the campaign on the young electors will play a large part and young minds need good, true information. I say bring on that information sooner rather than later.
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (eidas @ 1st Jan 2014, 08:58pm) *
I say bring on that information sooner rather than later.


I agree with what you say eidas, but the YES campaign has produced all the information anyone could want, i can't think of anything more they could provide, it is time that the Tory funded NO campaign came out with information as to their vision of the future for Scotland after a NO vote, how much will income tax rise, how much will the Barnett formula be cut or will it be scrapped altogether, will a Tory/UKIP coalition mean the scrapping of Holyrood, will i have to work until i'm 69, will our armed services be reduced even more? etc etc.

As you say, we need this information sooner rather than later if we are to make an informed decision.
Dylan
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 1st Jan 2014, 08:33pm) *
I think you will find most Scots went out into the World because the Union did not want them, what they achieved was in spite of the Union not because of it.

And Dylan, one of many examples of Scots being treated as second class being the Highland clearances, sheep before people.

Stronger together. Better together............You're having a laugh.


They were thrown off by fellow Scots Landlords who were every bit as bad as the English ones.!


Greed and self interest know no boundaries.

The Internationale unites the human race.!

Not Nationalism which is divisive.!
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Dylan @ 1st Jan 2014, 10:31pm) *
They were thrown off by fellow Scots Landlords who were every bit as bad as the English ones.!


Greed and self interest know no boundaries.

The Internationale unites the human race.!

Not Nationalism which is divisive.!


Dylan, i did not say anything about English landlords, i was saying that those who were forced out of their homes to move abroad to seek their fortune were victims of the union, and yes, i know there were Scots landlords who profited from the union and still are, although nowadays their known as Tories.

And it is because i am an Internationalist that i want to see my country recognised in it's own right in the World, joining the great community of independent nations, not as some small region of Greater England or Britain.
john.mcn
QUOTE (Dylan @ 1st Jan 2014, 10:31pm) *
The Internationale unites the human race.!


Wether we want it or not eh?
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 2nd Jan 2014, 12:03am) *
Dylan ... I want to see my country recognised in it's own right in the World, joining the great community of independent nations, not as some small region of Greater England or Britain.

This, alone, should be reason enough for the great majority of Scottish folk to finally right the wrong that took place all those years ago when Scotland's heritage was sold for a bowl of pottage.
I'm not one who likes to see divides in nations; as in the well known North/Souths and East/Wests which we are all aquainted with, and I certainly favour re-unity when this happens but Scotland was a Nation unto itself and should be returned to the people of Scotland as such.
We saw; and still see, the clamour for independant recognition of sovereign states which took place after the fall of the Soviet Union, which Union was anything but soviet.
Scotland should heed the opportunity; no grasp it, to be a Nation once again.

On the down side rolleyes.gif she'll still have lying, cheating, corrupt, dodgy, self-centered politicians ...
... but they'll be her own thumbup.gif laugh.gif
*Gordon*
Scottish-born and brought up, I am now an Australian and unsure how much my vote, albeit notional, can count.

As a kid we were always sensitive to the perceived snobberies from the south of England and longed for a separate nation. Added to that were the clear cruelties and criminal events of history. Nowadays, I am unsure whether separation may be good or bad for Scotland's future. My earlier sentiments, from the heart, support independence, yet I really can't see a totally separate nation, remaining immune from the stupidities and tyranny of the EU and the so-called Human Rights charlatans in Strasbourg.

My mind tells me that a united Britain is probably a better pragmatic choice given so many social and fiscal changes that may or may not ever be likely. Immigration is a major problem for the UK as I see it, with unwanted hundreds of thousands baying to get in and grab their slice of the apple pie to the detriment of the deserving Brits who have worked for their share.

So, by staying with England Scotland may just become a victim of uncontrolled chaotic immigration. But that may happen anyway if we can't defend that thin frontier between the two countries.

So, for what it's worth, that's where I would stand. Good luck in whatever you all choose.
farrochie
Scotland has a vast amount of resources and talented people to develop our country. We have fishing, aquaculture, crops, livestock, food, drinks, world class and unique distilling, brewing, financial services, banking, tourism, education, research, IT software, engineering, construction, shipping, avionics, energy, hydroelectricity & renewables, coal, oil & gas and lots of water!

But Westminster takes ALL the tax revenues from these resources. Corporation tax, VAT, income tax, NICs, alcohol/tobacco/fuel duty, road fund - everything. Then they give us back a lump sum grant, decided by the Barnett Formula. But Westminster makes all our big decisions for us, all the "reserved matters", 16 pages of reserved matters. And Westminster "allows" us to make decisions health, education and justice, and a few other matters.

Scotland is mature enough to collect taxes, decide priorities and make decisions on behalf of Scotland. Westminster will never put Scotland's interests first. And don't believe they spread the risk and reward over the whole UK. All London-based parties deliver what's best for their main constituency, middle England (their words).

It is time that Scotland took decision making back from Westminster into our own hands. We can elect Scottish governments that are not beholden to the interests of London & the south-east of England.

Happy New Year!
Heather
Well said Farrochie.

When we get our Independence we may well have a few problems at first, but Rome wasn't built in a day, and in time Scotland will sort itself out.

We have heard for years how Scotland is subsidised by the English, if that is true, why are they so anxious to hang on to us.

Scotland gets whatever Government England votes for, so lets take our future into our own hands.

Bought and sold for English gold. angry.gif
amclpreston
QUOTE (red rooster @ 1st Jan 2014, 06:59pm) *
Seems to me that both sides are as bad as each other the no campaign with their fear campaign and the yes campaign who see Independance as a panacea for all ills.

I think the situation was best summed up by Rab C on the Hogmanay show last night - "2014 will be the year the great Scottish people will decide if they are to be shafted by Westminster or Holyrood"

Many a true word spoken in jest.


I may laugh with Rab C. But at root I don't share his cynicism.

What took you to Kuching, in Sarawak? I worked, and lived for several years in Brunei.
How I got there was because I was single, quite adventurous, and took certain opportunities that presented themselves.

However, not everyone wants to be in a country where out of 17 native species of snake, only 16 are poisonous.

For me, an independent Scotland offers aspiration, hope and change. Not a panacea for all difficulties.

I was just thinking, a moment ago, about Donald Dewar. He worked hard to bring about devolution for Scotland. He didn't live to be an old man. Must have been ageing for him to have to try to overcome the deadbeat attitudes within his own party.

And that, I believe, is what this is really about. The Union is really about London, and Westminster.

Time for a parting of the ways. A friendly one. Of mutual co-operation.
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (amclpreston @ 2nd Jan 2014, 10:16am) *
Time for a parting of the ways. A friendly one. Of mutual co-operation.



Hear hear thumbup.gif

It's interesting to note that although only 10% have taken part in the new GG poll so far than the original poll, the share of the YES/NO vote is almost identical, which makes me think this is more accurate than the professional ones which are paid for by the YES and NO campaigns.
Dylan
As this is a SNP Board, it is no surprise that every Poll returns the same result , which is contrary to those conducted in the real world.???

2014, I predict many new members who will match one of the following profiles.

a. "Haven't made my mind up" day 1. Day 2 converted to Yes Vote.!

b. Ready made SNP foot soldier acting under orders from King Eck. !!

See if I'm right. laugh.gif
bilbo.s
Brilliant post, Farrochie, although perhaps I should not comment for fear of offending those who would deny expression of opinion to expats such as me. I do not know whether that attitude applies even to expats who agree with them on the independence issue, but I suspect, from some remarks, that we are all to be tarred with the same brush as traitors who have deserted the homeland. As a UK pensioner with close family in Scotland, I reserve the right to have my say, as the issue most definitely affects me personally. I do not however whinge about not having a vote, but accept the decision.

The mention of sour grapes gave me a rueful laugh ! Talk about transference !
Betsy2009
I wonder if it would be possible for a new government to ring fence the monies collected, e.g. road tax is for roads, NI is for the NHS, etc, instead of it seemingly going into one big pot to be spent on all and sundry, including MP's expenses? In other words, better housekeeping.
farrochie
QUOTE (Dylan @ 2nd Jan 2014, 11:11am) *
As this is a SNP Board, it is no surprise that every Poll returns the same result , which is contrary to those conducted
in the real world.???


2014, I predict many new members who will match one of the following profiles.

a) " Haven't made my mind up" day 1. Day 2 converted to Yes Vote.!

b)Ready made SNP foot soldier acting under orders from King Eck. !!


See if I'm right. laugh.gif


Take some time to imagine if this referendum had been called by say, the Labour Party. Imagine that the Labour Party in Scotland had gone back to its roots and decided it wanted an independent Scotland. Imagine if it was supported by the party of "Home Rule", the Liberal Democrats.

Now think about how you might vote if these parties were telling you that Scotland should run its own affairs.

This is not about the SNP! It is about the people of Scotland, and how we wish our decisions to be made. You have a simple choice, we can have a say at Westminster and a grant to run the bits that Westminster decides, or we can have the full powers that every other country has.
Dylan
Naw, it's about the SNP !!

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 2nd Jan 2014, 11:26am) *
I wonder if it would be possible for a new government to ring fence the monies collected, e.g. road tax is for roads, NI is for the NHS, etc, instead of it seemingly going into one big pot to be spent on all and sundry, including MP's expenses? In other words, better housekeeping.




rolleyes.gif
*Andrew*
QUOTE (Guest @ 1st Jan 2014, 07:06pm) *
I'll be voting no, All Alex Salmond wants is to be a big fish in a small pond instead of a small fish in a large Loch. He doesn't care about us or Scotland.


This issue will affect all our grandchildren. To base your vote on the merits or otherwise of one 59-year-old individual is totally nonsensical.
john.mcn
QUOTE (Dylan @ 2nd Jan 2014, 11:11am) *
As this is a SNP Board, it is no surprise that every Poll returns the same result , which is contrary to those conducted
in the real world.???


Like your bowling club tongue.gif


All the vested interests can bleat about how accurate their (real world)polls are, which of course they are, for the people they ask. They are selling a service after all and mugs will gladly pay for it, but lets get right down to what these (real world) polls are, they are asking people in the hundreds and taking that figure and adding some algorithms, a wee squiggle here and there all to make it look like smart people have done it and somehow taking those hundreds and turning them into millions.. Surely a feat worthy of the tag miracle, i mean they say some dude fed a lot of people with a couple slice of bread and fish fingers but this...this, give these guys a kit kat and the whole world could take a break.. amazing stuff indeed.
Seriously though, snake oil salesman didn't go the way of the bison, they just adapted, it used to be sure bet horse racing programs, then pools predictor, then lottery and now it seems they conduct polls of a few passers by and tell us this is how 'we' are all thinking.. They say fools and their money are easily separated, and we know how foolish politicians can be.

This is a fun poll and as accurate as all the others out there, thats to say not very when we are talking about the whole population.
Dylan
Do you take drugs. ? laugh.gif
john.mcn
QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 2nd Jan 2014, 11:26am) *
I wonder if it would be possible for a new government to ring fence the monies collected, e.g. road tax is for roads, NI is for the NHS, etc, instead of it seemingly going into one big pot to be spent on all and sundry, including MP's expenses? In other words, better housekeeping.



No such thing as road tax, it is vehicle excise duty, thats how they get away with the state of the roads as they are.
farrochie
QUOTE (Dylan @ 2nd Jan 2014, 11:56am) *
Do you take drugs. ? laugh.gif


Remember, Dylan, that when give the opportunity Scots voted overwhelmingly to have our own parliament as follows:

Agree:1,775,045 (74.3%)
Disagree : 614,400 (25.7%)

Why is it you think that Scotland is better served by Westminster with 1 Tory and 11 LibDems representing us in government?
john.mcn
Dylan thinks we should have less say than san marino, and he asks if i'm on drugs!!!

If he isn't then he should be biggrin.gif
Dylan
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 2nd Jan 2014, 12:00pm) *
No such thing as road tax, it is vehicle excise duty, thats how they get away with the state of the roads as they are.


That is how all Governments work, do you think the SNP would act any different.

Tax is collected and distributed as the Govt. of the day see fit.

I would prefer a fairer distribution .

I'm away for a wee Coke, the Cola kind you understand. tongue.gif
john.mcn
Did I say anything about the SNP? You are totally obsessed with them!

BTW you should try snorting the coke up your nose, come back and tell us how good it was biggrin.gif
Dylan
Coked up but can cut my nose. !!
anonymous
QUOTE (amclpreston @ 2nd Jan 2014, 10:16am) *
I may laugh with Rab C. But at root I don't share his cynicism.

What took you to Kuching, in Sarawak? I worked, and lived for several years in Brunei.
How I got there was because I was single, quite adventurous, and took certain opportunities that presented themselves.

However, not everyone wants to be in a country where out of 17 native species of snake, only 16 are poisonous.


So you were single adventurous and scared of snakes!
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