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wee davy
Dear Friends

I think a new Topic might do us all a world of good.

To kick off.
It is of course impossible to seperate your politics from such a discussion, without using your colours to form your argument. But it IS possible to refrain from allowing your beliefs to cloud the issue.

It is without a doubt, a MASSIVE decision - not just for Scotland - but for the whole of the UK.
One very contentious thing, is nuclear (having recently been discussed on other similar Topics).
But there are SO many more.

Brothers and Sisters, Mothers and Fathers, whole FAMILIES will be affected by it, on both sides of the divide.

The argument, in my humble opinion, hasn't even BEGUN yet.
Until those who OPPOSE independence give their reasoned arguments for remaining unified with a Westminster Government who certainly for MY lifetime, and historically, has always favoured the South of the 'UK', there is a real danger, apathy will win YET AGAIN.
Over 300 years ago, a significant, well to do lot, in Scotland, sold the country down the river. You now have a chance to reverse that. DEMOCRATICALLY.

What about family businesses in direct competion with each other - fighting for the same contract
???

My dear fellow GG'rs.

What is said on this forum, DOES have a certain amount of weight.
It is read by a whole HOARD of people (probably even those who are closer to the important and crucial decision).

I think we can do this, with the minimum of acrimony, bitterness, or even self beliefs.

There is MUCH to be discussed, before your vote, NEXT YEAR - NOW is the time for everyone to fight their corner. For all I know, to remain unified, may just be the right result. But would it be conceivable for Canada to become the 51st State?
angel
Well Davy , whether or no you find this a satisfactory answer to the
yes vote in the Scottish referendum it does'nt matter to me .
I came to my decision after reading what I could on this
separation from the UK , reading both sides of the great divide.

I am still of the opinion that Scotland should not break up the United Kingdom but should have talks with Westminster regarding Devolution ,
whatever that would be .


On Yahoo answers , about this nonsense on Canada being the 51st state , is as follows .

More importantly, when will the USA join Canada? Canada has a far more superior financial infrastructure, economy, education system, health care system and democratic government than the USA. If Americans want to improve their standard of living, they should consider joining Canada.
I think so ! yes.gif yes.gif

PS , it's Puerto Rico who wishes to become the 51st state .
wee davy
Hi angel
First of all, thanks a lot for responding.

I care not which way people's kilts fly on this one, too.
I'm looking for some honest to goodness discussion about the 'pro's' and the 'cons' of it all.
So,... after reading what you could, would you care to discuss the pro's for the status quo? (As you appear to have arrived at this conclusion).

Devolution was granted in 1997 - Scotland has had its own Parliament since 1999 I was being ironic, by the way, regarding the 51st State . I know Canada would never in a million years, give up its independence.

So how come its ok for you - and not for Scotland?

Best Regards,
wee davy
angel
So,... after reading what you could, would you care to discuss the pro's for the status quo? (As you appear to have arrived at this conclusion).

Davy , if I was thirty years or so younger , I would'nt hesitate for a
moment to discuss as to why I believe Scotland should not
separate from the UK . However , it seems to me that Scotand has
enough power through devolution , to govern the country within the
United Kingdom , although , that is not enough for those who are
determined to separate , do they have legitimate reasons for this
move , now this is were I am at a loss but by the same token their
gripes are not enough to break up the UK and I say , if your
government is worth it's salt , then start negotiating and talk the talk ,
find ways to make the union work don't look for ways to break it up .

Davy , I have actually said this before , but for those hell bent on
separation , especially on this board , it means nothing .
Regards , Pat.

Also Davy , lets not get sidetracked here by bringing Canada into this.
There is already enough to deal with .
The United Kingdom versus Scottish independence
on the Glasgow boards . dry.gif
Dave Grieve
There are numerous good reasons to stay with the Union.

How could Scotland survive without the House of Lords.

We surely dont have the savvy to run the country without the guidance of London Politicians.

We dont have enough money in the kitty to pay for the whole country to be on benifits

We need the London goverment to pay for those benifits.

The reason we need the London goverment to pay those benifits is because we are a nation of scroungers and drunks that need guidance from our southern neighbours.

North sea oil is going to run out some time this century and what will we do without the London Goverment to fall back on.

We need the annual hounours list to pretend to the nation that we are appreciated by the rest of the Union.

Scotland is incapable of running its own armed forces without the London goverment.

Scotland is to wee.

Scotland is to poor.

Scotland is to (fill in your own excuse)

Scotland needs the London goverment to take people of benifits when it gets itself into another war and calls our sons up to be used as cannon fodder

There must be many more reasons for staying in the Union but I'm sure all the Unionists on the board can list them.
JAGZ1876
A big hand for the comedy stylings of Mr Dave Grieve....Dave's here twice a day until Friday laugh.gif


Seriously wee davy i applaud you for trying to set up a thread to get both sides of the debate actually discussing the issues that will affect us all.

If we can leave party political rivalries at the door and discuss what is best for Scotland, because regardless of who we vote for the most important thing in all this is what kind of Scotland would we like to leave behind for our children and their children.

For that reason i am nailing my colours to the independence mast, although before i give some of my reasons for doing so can i just say that i have an open mind on the subject and if anyone can convince me that staying under Westminster rule will be better for Scotland then i will change my mind.

As you have mentioned Trident wee davy can i just say that by not having that abomination on our doorstep the financial savings alone (let alone the health risks) plus the our contribution to send forces to fight in other lands would be around £1.5 Billion per year, just think of what a small country like Scotland could do with that one saving alone (NHS, schools, housing) there are many financial benefits (many have been discussed on here already but we can go into greater detail later) but there is more to this than finance, can anyone name a country that would give up it's independence to be better of financially?

Hi Angel, i read your post with interest and i can understand why you would have an emotional tie with the country you left behind, but can you remember the reason why you and your family left the UK?

If it was to find work, a financial decision to improve your lifestyle as most ex pats around that time did, then you surely cannot begrudge those still living here the right to do the same by making our own decisions, i know you may be unaware living in Canada but if we vote to retain the status quo then we will lose all the benefits we have worked hard to improve the lives of the people of Scotland like free prescriptions, free travel for our pensioners, no fee's for our students etc, this will all go if Labour win the next Holyrood election as they have promised to carry out the UK Tory governments swinging austerity cuts that have been resisted by the present Scottish government.

You may be unaware Angel but certain area's of Glasgow have introduced food banks for the poor, unbelievable isn't it, food banks in the 21st century Scotland, Europe's largest oil and gas producer, it makes me weep to think about how our money is wasted by a Westminster government who cares little for Scotland, so devolution is not enough we have to take control of all our affairs and put our people first.

I hope this is of some help to you Angel as to why their is a growing need for self determination, take care Angel and enjoy the rest of your day.

I hope we can have a good open debate wee davy, you've got the ball well and truly rolling.
wee davy
Thanks for that Dave - I was beginning to think I would turn into a skellington , before getting some kind of respose to a question I've been asking consistently, for months.
(Plus it gave me a good laugh)
We can only hope, jagz.
john.mcn

An independent Scotland wont need to spend hundreds of millions of £'s on bungs... sorry meant foreign aid!
In these times of financial hardships of many our own countrymen, i find it unbelievable that the foreign 'aid' budget' increases year on year(over £12.6B by 2014) while cuts are forced upon us.
If people after being taxed to the hilt find it in their hearts and wallets to fund charities that is their right, but we should look after our own first.
Dylan
"You may be unaware Angel but certain area's of Glasgow have introduced food banks for the poor, unbelievable isn't it, food banks in the 21st century Scotland, Europe's largest oil and gas producer, it makes me weep to think about how our money is wasted by a Westminster government who cares little for Scotland, so devolution is not enough we have to take control of all our affairs and put our people first."

There are food banks all over Britain, not only Scotland. There are poor people all over Britain, not just Scotland. I care about all of them.

The culprits are the Coalition Wesminster Govt.( Labour are in opposition !!! )

Under Devolution The Scottish Govt. are responsible for " Health Care ".

The Westminster Parliament , whatever shade, have no power and could not remove Free Prescriptions.

Nor could they remove our Bus Passes.

Scare tactics .

angel
thought I would add this to the pot .


2011 International Aid Donated (Official Development Assistance) COUNTRY For each $100 earned in the country, how much is donated in aid Aid as % of income How close the country is to reaching the 0.7% goal
Sweden 102 cents 1.02 Already reached goal
Norway 100 cents 1.00 Already reached goal
Luxembourg 99 cents 0.99 Already reached goal
Denmark 86 cents 0.86 Already reached goal
Netherlands 75 cents 0.75 Already reached goal
United Kingdom 56 cents 0.56 Scheduled to reach in 2013
Belgium 53 cents 0.53 Scheduled to reach in 2015
Finland 52 cents 0.52 Scheduled to reach in 2015
Ireland 52 cents 0.52 Scheduled to reach in 2015
France 46 cents 0.46 Scheduled to reach in 2015
Switzerland 46 cents 0.46 No schedule yet
Germany 40 cents 0.40 Scheduled to reach in 2015


Why the 0.7% Agreement?
The countries made this agreement because they realized that it was hard for each country on its own to give a consistent, minimum level of aid each year. Despite good intentions, a country would find that the aid it wanted to give was eaten away by competing political interests, concern about budget deficits, “problems at home,” “problems abroad,” and so on. So they agreed to a minimal, flat rate that each country could afford each year regardless of its current political or economic state.

The 0.7% figure may sound complicated, but it is actually quite simple. You take the total income earned by all the people in the country and then the government gives 0.7% (seven tenths of one percent) of that as aid. Or to look at it another way: for every $100 earned in the country, the country gives 70 cents in aid.

How are the countries doing?
As the chart above shows, five countries have already met the goal to give 0.7% of their income in international aid: Denmark, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, and Sweden.

In 2002 and 2003, five other countries set up a schedule to give 0.7%: Belgium, Ireland, Finland, France, and Spain.

In July 2004, the United Kingdom set up a schedule to give 0.7%.

In April 2005, Germany set up a schedule to give 0.7%.

In May 2005, Austria, Greece, Italy, and Portugal set up a schedule to give 0.7%.

It was not easy for many of the countries to set up a schedule to reach the 0.7% goal. In some cases, such as Britain and Germany, it took the combined effort of many thousands of citizens writing and petitioning their government to get it done.

It's about 22 countries in all who give international aid to poorer
countries .
angel
Hi Dylan , I am aware of the food banks , and I do not think they are a bad thing , In many cases it means that there will be those who are less
fortunate , that will get food . cheers .
wee davy
Your not quite right on the powers ALLOWED by Westminster, Dylan.

Legislation creating devolved parliaments or assemblies can be repealed or amended by central government in the same way as any statute

Cop yer whack fer that, Dylan

Although I would agree it would be highly unlikely to give with one hand, and take back with the other - thats the REAL relationship. Scotland is no more than a County Council within the UK, with a bit more power.
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Dylan @ 9th Jan 2013, 02:49pm) *
There are food banks all over Britain, not only Scotland. There are poor people all over Britain, not just Scotland. I care about all of them.

The culprits are the Coalition Wesminster Govt.( Labour are in opposition !!! )

Under Devolution The Scottish Govt. are responsible for " Health Care ".

The Westminster Parliament , whatever shade, have no power and could not remove Free Prescriptions.

Nor could they remove our Bus Passes.

Scare tactics .


First of all what a refreshing change to have a mature debate without resorting to name calling or insults, and that goes for both sides.

Now Dylan, you will probably be right about food banks in other parts of the UK, but surely that is something to be ashamed of, as i have said this is the 21st century not 19th century Dickensian Britain where the poor house was the norm, we should not be allowing this to happen, and while i take your point that is happening across the UK we the People of Scotland have a chance to change things for the better by voting for a fairer more socially aware Scottish parliament, where we will spend money on tackling poverty, building schools etc, and everything else that we should hold dear, putting society first before wasting £Trillions on WMDs or trying to be a superpower at the expense of our people.

I agree with you the culprits are at Westminster, but they are successive governments of all colours, your not seriously suggesting that Scotland prospered anymore under Blair's government from 1998 (let's be honest they were more right wing than Majors government) through to Browns till 2010, and as wee davy has mentioned they do have the power to overturn decisions made by the Scottish Government elected by the people of Scotland.

No the people who can and say they will revoke our hard earned benefits are Scottish Labour, if they win the next Holyrood election have promised to implement the cuts as dictated by the Tory Westminster government, as can be seen herehttp://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/5920-no-more-something-for-nothing-as-lamont-attacks-universal-benefits

Scary.......Yes Scare tactics, unfortunately NO.
JAGZ1876
Sorry i can't get the link to work i will try again.

This is where we get to see the potters wheel laugh.gif If you are under forty you will have no idea what i mean tongue.gif
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (angel @ 9th Jan 2013, 03:08pm) *
Hi Dylan , I am aware of the food banks , and I do not think they are a bad thing , In many cases it means that there will be those who are less
fortunate , that will get food . cheers .


Hi Angel, do they have food banks in Canada?

If they do then i think the western world is in a bigger mess than even i imagined, what about other parts of the world, US, Australia, NZ, etc.

Come on Ex pats, are we all in the brown stuff?
Dylan
I would believe the Dailt Mail before this " Fact Sheet "

Note Independence not Independent !!!
john.mcn
QUOTE (angel @ 9th Jan 2013, 02:57pm) *
thought I would add this to the pot .


2011 International Aid Donated (Official Development Assistance) COUNTRY For each $100 earned in the country, how much is donated in aid Aid as % of income How close the country is to reaching the 0.7% goal *snip*



I couldn't care less which country spends what on foreign aid, if our politicians feel the desire to eradicate poverty or educate the uneducated then they should use that 0.7% and start within these borders. If they and others wish to help people abroad then simply pull out your own cheque book.
angel
[Post deleted at member's request. GG]
wee davy
Please - I put this Topic in for people to have rational discussion about the Independence Issue, of which Glasgow will play a crucial role - yay or nay

Long diatribes about pro's and con's of food banks are WAY off the mark.
(As are statisitics about 'feeding the world' angel)

I would politely ask those who wish to enter into the debate, to remain on topic.

wee davy
JAGZ1876
Point taken, apologies, i started the food bank discussion only as to make a point as to why such a potentiality rich small country should be squandering £Billions on armaments when clearly the money could be put to better use on providing care for her people.
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (angel @ 9th Jan 2013, 09:45pm) *
What is the brown stuff ?


Really!..........Angel, if the brown stuff is number 2..............are you taking the number 1 out of me biggrin.gif
Dave Grieve
Really is there any one/1/wan good reason to vote no in the referendum, people can shout all they like about staying within the Union but even one good reason would be better than the overwhelming silence that comes from any of the pro unionists on the board or off it.

Personally when this debate first surfaced on the board I was a fence sitter more concerned with going with the option that would provide more jobs for Scots people.
I couldn't give a monkeys if somebody in London ,Newcastle or Liverpool loses out on a job for the sake of the job coming to Scotland.

Ever since I can remember going back to the 50's any time companies had to downsize (lovely word that to describe a families heartache) it was ALWAYS at the expense of the branch in Scotland.

We have had over 300 years of one way traffic when it comes to affluence I say its time to take it back.

I wont have a vote but I do have an opinion.
wee davy
The London Borough of Wandsworth granted detailed planning permission for Phase One of the Battersea Power Station development on 13 December 2012.


This followed the Autumn Statement on 5 December 2012, in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer confirmed the UK government’s support for a £1 billion loan and a guarantee to extend the Northern Line underground (for access to new development @ wee davy)


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-22...l#ixzz2HaGGZocH
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

An example of how your taxes are spent making London richer and richer - read full article.
Wonder who these companies are that are going to develop everything? Wonder if the profits will /how be paid? Wonder if the loan is a 999 year one?

Glasgow gets sweet FA for a half decent face lift for the public face of their City Centre

It pays to vote No?
JAGZ1876
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-ne...-row.1357818327

With the FM being cleared of not breaching the ministerial code, i wonder if the better together NO campaigners will finally come up with examples of why we are better together or are they planning their next mud slinging campaign.

I doubt if we will hear any apologies for the "Bare faced liar" comments either.
angel
QUOTE (angel @ 9th Jan 2013, 08:45pm) *
[Post deleted at member's request. GG]



Thank you Martin. !
JAGZ1876
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scot...siness-20972218

I posted this up on one of the other independence threads wee davy, but i thought it would fit in with your non party politics, give good reasons for and against dissolving the union debate, i'm glad to see that this one has an air of civility about it, well done both sides.
wee davy
I would like to thank the members for respecting my request.

My old boss was a great one, for 'what ifs'.
It is indeed a very useful way of coming to reasoned conclusions.

What if Scotland DOES vote for Independence?
Have you thought about how it might affect your immediate circumstances?
(I'm addressing the resident Glaswegians of course)
Do you think things will change in the short term?
If so, ... HOW?
How do you feel things might change, in the longer term?
Or don't you really give a fig? (If so,... your on the wrong thread)
Dave Grieve
Independence seems to be a done deal as far as Blackberry are concerened I was downloading a new App for my phone and had to put in the country I am in, while scrolling down looking for South Africa I found Scotland listed, they have never been listed seperately before always as part of the UK.
The UK is still listed.
smile.gif
serabash
well that's a positive thumbup.gif
wee davy
QUOTE
Scottish Secretary Michael Moore insists the UK government would not enter into negotiations over the terms of Scottish independence before the 2014 referendum.

Writing in the Scotland on Sunday newspaper, he revealed that the government at Westminster plans to publish a series of papers over the coming months that will look at Scotland's current position, and the choices it would face if the country voted to leave the UK.


Then theres the NOT SO POSITIVE.
In fact, there's the downright refusal of the UK government to enter into any sort of meaningful discussion, preceding next years vote.
Shameful, arrogant, and downright belittling.
Melody
Well Davy what would you expect? Ye know they canny come out of character sure.
wee davy
So childish, Melody.
Its like 'this OOR baw and ye's are no playin' wi it'

Oh well,... if the Westminster politicians are not going to play, this might just (yet again) be another disastrous opening gambit by the NO team. Do they not realise Scotland MIGHT just vote for Independence next year?

Its almost an Empire attitude.
serabash
I think they are probably doing more for the yes cause with this attitude.
wee davy
Its already beginning to smell like 'all we promised you was a vote - we didn't say' we will abide by the Scottish People's wishes''.

How can such an important decision of this magnitude, not be discussed?
(Before the event) (Unless you know the outcome)
Dylan
We know the outcome.!!
wee davy
Aye - like Maggie Thatcher did, when she introduced a poll tax that some poor sod lost his head fer, 600 years before (she forgot to check history)
bilbo.s
QUOTE (Dylan @ 13th Jan 2013, 08:06pm) *
We know the outcome.!!



Is that "We" as in "We are the peepul" ?
Isobel
I just hope and pray that the people ALL turn out and vote.
bilbo.s
Interesting views from an Australian expat in the Herald:-

There is no doubt there are complex issues involved in deciding what to vote in the referendum. I find it amazing however, that the Scots, alone, do not have the confidence to vote to rule themselves. I know of no other people in the world that have knocked back the chance of self-rule, where your own parliament makes your decisions.
It is not as if the people in these islands are going to throw up Berlin-type walls between themselves. There will be free population movement accross British and Irish borders as there is now. Westminster makes laws with an eye to the majority of the population as that is where the votes are and they want re-elected. The majority of the population happens to be in England (over 80%), and in particular, the south-east of England. Hence the huge public spending in this area.
If Scotland doesn't vote for independence, they will have Tory governments, so voting for your own parliament with full powers makes sense.
No country that has become independent has asked for a return to their previous situation. They got on with it and prospered. Look at the USA, Singapore, Malaysia, Estonia and closer to home, Norway. In 1905, over 99% of Norwegians voted to break the union with Sweden, and now their standard of living is away beyond Scotland, and they have fewer resources.
I don't know why Scots have such a lack of confidence in themselves to goit alone, because as a people, they are high achievers. Perhaps they get worn down with indecision because of the innuendo and untruths thrown at them. Loss of 19,000 jobs in Faslane being the daddy of them all. Then, there is the surpression of the truth. eg Told thirty years ago the oil wouldn't last long. It goes on and on.
My goodness Dr Goebbels could have honed his skills if he were alive today.
john.mcn


But the oil is running out..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scot...siness-21003704

'Oil and gas 'jobs boom' forecast for North Sea'
tamhickey
I have yet to hear anyone make a positive case for maintaining the Union. All I seem to see are scare stories and "what if" arguments. In my opinion, the Labour Party in Scotland would be freed from the constraints of Westminster should we vote for Independence and become more attuned to the needs of the populace. My worry is that it may be staffed by the kind of people who currently run Glasgow City Council. To me, the No campaign has to show me good reasons to stay within the Union and they haven't done so at all so far. We ought to stay in this Union to help the South of England and the City of London with our taxes, oil and gas revenue, whisky, fishing, tourism etc.
Surely with all we have going for us, we could do so Independently? As for cross border trading, I see no problem with this continuing with our English neighbours. We already trade worldwide so it's not going to change anytime soon.
Nuclear weapons on the Clyde are just not acceptable to Glaswegians or Scots from elsewhere in the country. This country has contributed billions over the years to the USA for this fallacy of fools, yet the USA are the ones who not only construct and ship them, but control their use. I for one do not accept that we need WMD's on our doorstep, especially as they will never be used.
The Tories have just implemented horrible beneifit changes to the poorest and most vulnerable in society. Should we in Scotland stand for the same? We need better. We need Independence.
wee davy
QUOTE (Isobel @ 13th Jan 2013, 07:34pm) *
I just hope and pray that the people ALL turn out and vote.


I just hope ALL Glaswegians who normally make the effort, do not sleep walk, as they so often do, to the polling stations. If they really consider the issues, carefully, the FULL implications of their decision, then I believe they will make the right call.
Generation after generation has voted loyally, for' the working man', traditionally. For what?
Has that loyallty EVER been rewarded?
By voting for Independence, I believe they may eventually achieve what they've always wanted and hoped for.
Jobs, investment, and above all, a CHANCE to achieve those things.

Whit dae Glaswegians think of the 'ye kin hiv yer vote - but were no talking tae ye aboot it, until were ready!' If I know Glaswegians, the one thing they do NOT like, is being IGNORED. The/Cam Glegg consortium, are relying upon Glasgow to 'pull through' for them.
In fact, the RED half of Westminster are assuming upon having nothing to do (AGAIN) after THE VOTE (for OR against).
At least the GOVERNMENT of the UK, on the day, will have NO CHOICE but to respond.
Melody
We should tell them that no way do we want Independence and then they'll force it on us. laugh.gif

Only by being Independent will we in Scotland get the government we vote for.
DavidT
When Scotland gains independence from the UK just think of the jobs that will be created throughout the British Isles as companies and Government departments (in both of the newly formed countries) will have to change headed papers, etc. Printers will be working flat out. Sign makers, van livery designers, stone masons will have to take on extra staff to cope with demand. Recycle plants will struggle to cope with the extra pressure put on them by dealing with the old UK stock. This may all be my rose tinted dream, but I am looking forward to owning one of these...Click to view attachment
bilbo.s
During the last month or so I have had conversations with family, friends and acquaintances of Spanish, Danish, German, Norwegian, French and even English nationalities. Without exception they expressed amazement that some Scottish people were against independence. There is clearly something peculiar about the Scottish psyche.
wee davy
They've got so used to being the nodding dog - they've yet to realise the heid is stuck!
serabash
canny come quick enough for me.
Dylan
I have spoken to 47 different Natationalities, in their own language BTW and they all said they had also spoken to a different 47 and every last one of them can not understand why some Thistle Munchers would want to break up The UK .

I told them that the fishul SNP response is that we are all Nodding Dogs. Good eh !!

Melody and Serabash are only voting YES because Alex Salmond is so handsome and sexy. What a man, what a world leader he will make. Mel Gibson has been approached if Alex looses his teeth.
Now that is planning and strategy .

If Bilbo can supply the names of people he has spoken to I will do likewise. Unless of course he is making it up.

Good tactic, up there with " I was undecided, so was my wife but now we both want Independence ".
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