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GG
It sounded like a great idea, and exactly the kind of healthy family activity which city politicians claim they are desperate to promote ... however, for one young Glasgow family a trip to their local swimming baths was scuppered after they were refused entry on health and safety grounds.

Mr and Mrs Ross took their three children to the local council swimming pool in Easterhouse only to be told that they would need to get another adult to accompany them if they wanted to bring in their three children into the publicly-owned pool. Officials at the facility, run by leisure quango Glasgow Life, informed the young couple that there was a 'one-adult-per-child' policy in force because their three children (aged six, four and a one-year-old) were under eight.

Following the exclusion, Mrs Ross, a retail supervisor, said:
QUOTE
"I felt really upset, I felt I was being penalised for having more kids. The boys were also upset because they wanted to go swimming.

I tried to explain to the person that they [the older boys] can stand in the shallow bit of the big pool, which is 1.2metres, and one can swim without any aid. But the officials said, 'Sorry, it is health and safety, these are the rules'.

I think it should be up to the parents to decide because we are liable for the children s safety. I'm not saying go in with six children under the age of eight, but if you know what your kids are capable of doing in a pool it should be up to you, not for someone to say no entry."

With the children in tears, the young family were forced go elsewhere, finding no problem gaining entry to the Time Capsule swimming pool in Coatbridge.

A spokesman for Glasgow Life said:
QUOTE
"We operate a pool admission policy in line with national industry guidelines for the safety of all customers, particularly young children. Easterhouse Pool was very busy at the time of the family's visit, so this policy was fully applied in the interests of health and safety."

The exclusion of the young family comes at a time when the city is preparing to host the 525million Commonwealth Games in 2014, where a key goal is to bring about a "cultural change in citizens' attitude to health and motivation to participate in physical activity and sport".


GG.
bossyboots
This is absolutely OUTRAGEOUS. I honestly am lost for words with this story. Its really getting more ridiculous now and before you know it you wont be able to walk down the street with your children incase of the very strong possibility that something drops out of the sky and whacks them on the head.
Guest
I can kind of see where the health and safety bit comes in, but its still a bit off. Yes you may lose track of a child for a second and yes something could go wrong, but come on, the parents know that. Lets not turn into China when they only allowed parents to have two kids.

Plus what if you're a widow with two kids. Or a single dad with more than one kid. Are you turned away at the door too? Bureaucracy gone mad.
angel
Just my 2 cents worth here .......

If the Easterhouse pool was as busy as the spokesperson said and according to their Health and safety guidlines ,I think the right decision was made , however , I can't for the life of me figure what the outcome had to do with the Commonwealth Games .

I'm very pleased that this young family did manage to get swimming and participate in this wonderful activity .
*eddie McFadyen*
It reminds me of an incident when my 17yrs old son (who happened to have his bronze medallion life-saving award) wasn't allowed to take his 7yrs old sister into a pool (not in Glasgow.) "Have to be 18 to take a child in." That means a large percentage of South Ayrshire parents can't take their babies swimming.
Doug1
This is a tricky one. If i am reading it right the pool state that they fully applied the rule due to it being very busy, if that is the case if it was quieter would the family have been allowed in? I have three kids and when they were young i would take all three to my local pool and other pools every weekend and i was never refused entry but on many occasions i have been in pools and seen little kids playing about with no parental supervision at all ie parent or parents either swimming at the deep end or being out of the pool altogether and i have kept a watchful eye on them at the same time as watching my own kids. Most parents are very careful and thoughtful, but not all. how many times can you go into supermarkets and find tiny little kids wandering about on their own !! However if the pool was indeed busy maybe they needed more lifeguards on duty

_________________
Heather
I wonder when that rule was brought in.

I took my two g'daughters to Easterhouse Swimming Pool when both of them were pre-school age and I was never turned away. They went in the main Pool which also has a slide for the children.

There is also a Learners Pool and when no one is being taught, children are allowed to use it as it is very shallow.

There is also a Lifeguard on duty all the time.
The Callands Rebel
Good Day:

Your powers to be like those who on a daily basis are regulating the hell out of us here in the States. Just check out what the United Nations fully backed by the USA have in store for us all.

jERRY
Callands Rebel
chas1937
Nothing surprises me these days as so much claims for compensation that all authoroties are scared of claims being falsely made
campsie
This is not as straight forward as we would like it to be. I would like to point out that 1.2 metres is 3ft 9ins and the two older boys are 6 and 4 I doubt very much the 4yr old is tall enough to stand and keep his balance even if he is tall for his age in rhat depth. We all know how kids like to emulate other kids especially in a pool where everything seems so carefree, and paying attention is hard. It can be hard going just looking after one child in a park when they want to run around and explore. Where water is concerned it is different it only takes a few careless minutes of taking your eyes off them for something awful to happen, and in this case because the mother has failed to realise that 1.2 metres of water is very deep for a 4year old and maybe even rhe 6 yrnold depending on his height. Added to which when the pool is very busy it does become more difficult should one of the children wander off unnoticed. I think the on this occassion Glasgow Life did put safety first, interestingly the parents did not mention if the pool they did get into was very busy also. Another point I wonder who the parents would blame if an unfortunate accident did happen to one of their children if they had been let into rhe first pool?
Jazzsaxman
QUOTE
Animal Farm - "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".

Do they not employ lifeguards for that very reason. Next thing you know, they will be stopping you going into the sea at Largs. It is those little government termites again that are nibbling away at your freedom. It is pathetic.
seamus1954
Bureaucratic nonsense , Do they Not have lifeguards????What the H### Ever happened to Common sense I thought stuff like that only Happened over Here , They micro regulate everything and regulate it to death I am incensed And I don't even live there!!!!!!!!
angel
Campsie , I agree with your post #10 ... 100%

In a large public swimming pool that is jam packed with children and adults , it is extremely difficult for lifeguards to spot those who maybe having difficulties in the water and from my own experience in this sort of situation , with just two children " who by the way are excellent swimmers " because their parents made sure that they had professional swimming lessons , The life guard saw that my grandaughter was in difficulties because of another young swimmer , whom I now think was overwhelmed by the amount of people in that pool . however under these crowded conditions it can be very difficult for lifeguards to see everything , but no matter , they have saved probably thousand's of lifes .

I recall as a child going to the Medwyn St. swimming pool in Whiteinch on a Sat. afternoon , " the wee pool as we called it " waiting in a lineup , because the amount of kids allowed into that pool at any given time , was controlled , " so this is'nt a new thing " we may well have waited about 1hr. to get in at times , but it was , I believe , for safety reasons , "they did not overcrowd the pool " but I sure learnd to swim there , and that allowed me to go swimming in the big pool .... O'
Happy Days biggrin.gif

I thought that I would add this little bit of info. I picked up

QUOTE
Drowning and Injury

In any situation where more than a few inches of water are involved, there is a risk of drowning. The overall risk of drowning is actually decreased at public swimming pools where lifeguards are present. The high volume of swimmers at a public pool, however, can create dangerous situations for novice swimmers. Young swimmers may be overwhelmed in a pool crowded with people; all children should be partnered with an adult during swimming in a public pool.

Injuries also are hazards at a public pool. Many public pools use skid-resistant surfaces for decks and walking areas, but incidences of slipping are likely due to the amount of water that is tracked out of the pool by multiple swimmers. Crowded public pools facilitate accidental injuries caused by swimmers bumping into one another. Lifeguards are first aid certified, however, and public pools are required to maintain adequate safety and injury equipment and supplies. .

Read more: Public Swimming Pools Risks | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_6638257_public-sw...l#ixzz2052Bq8lq
laura j
Surely, its easier reading that the family were refused entry than the not entirely outwith the realm of possibility alternative report of a tradgedy..
It doesnt take very long to drown. Ability to swim does not guarantee it wont happen.From the "health and safety" perspective i think its an acceptable policy - One which would benefit from being highlighted to any visitors before they reach the kiosk... but not altogether unreasonable.
I understand the parents frustration, however they really shouldnt take it as a personal insult.
mlconnelly
Health and safety has gone mad here but at the same time I can see the point for not over-crowding the pool. But surely it would have been more than reasonable and certainly more tactful of the person in charge to explain that the pool was busy and ask the familiy if they would mind waiting or come back later. I have never been in Easterhouse pool but I have been to the Time Capsule on several occasions and it is always choc-a-block, especially during school holidays. There is also an abundance of life-guards on duty at any given time, much more so then at any Glasgow Life pools. Mary
Jupiter
I dont think chas 1937 is too far off the mark here.
Changed days indeed and Im sure many of you frequented Woodside Baths in years gone by.Kids queuing to get in.
Other Corporation run baths were probably the same where
the attendants crammed two kids to a changing cubicle and also had kids getting changed in the upper passage behind the changing cubicles.Now that was crazy overcrowding and not an adult in sight in the pool.I shudder to think how thr water filtration system coped. rolleyes.gif
Its as though the state is saying via H&S laws we dont think you are capable of the task of looking after your own children.
angel
Well Jupiter , chas 1937 may not be to far off the mark here
but you give me any day in the week were a child has'nt drowned
or been injured in a public pool because of these rules , then for me , that sure beats a lawsuit any day .
Also I never experienced the conditions that you have described
regarding woodside baths , when we moved tp possilpark I went swimming in woodside when I was a teenager on many occasions
I thought it was OK . smile.gif
Jupiter
Hi Angel, the time Im talking about is early 60s and it was just accepted that the pools were packed, and can you oblige and run your point by me again,I think Im missing something.I dont quite understand it.Are you saying the rules are ok? Thats fair by me. rolleyes.gif
angel
Yes Jupiter I am saying that those rules are good .

To my mind , it is immaterial the true reason for them , as long as lives are saved and injuries prevented , then that is what is important .

Also Jupitor , I don't think that the H&S laws are saying that parents cannot look after their children , although some can't ! .

Looking after kids in a packed pool is extemely difficult . no matter what those parent's may think , lets face it , it's like a mad house . biggrin.gif
GG
Reflecting on what the Glasgow Life spokesman said:
QUOTE
"We operate a pool admission policy in line with national industry guidelines for the safety of all customers, particularly young children. Easterhouse Pool was very busy at the time of the family's visit, so this policy was fully applied in the interests of health and safety."

One problem is this: if the official is saying that the safety of children would have been compromised because the pool was "very busy", then this would have been the case if the family had been allowed entry prior to the pool becoming very busy. Therefore, by their own admission, it appears that it is fact that the pool was allowed to become "very busy" –overcrowded? – which itself poses the possibility of exposing young children to the danger which Glasgow Life say they were trying to avoid.

Surely better facility management, in terms of controlling the rate of entry, would be a more sensible policy to avoid 'danger to safety'?

GG.
GG
Just posted by Barbara Rohloff via the 'Report' button:
QUOTE
How utterly bloody ridiculous, I just hope that ludicrous law doesn't find it's way to New Zealand, surely it is PC going over the top!

GG.
GG
QUOTE (Jupiter @ 9th Jul 2012, 02:19am) *
... Its as though the state is saying via H&S laws we dont think you are capable of the task of looking after your own children.

I agree with you, Jupiter and the others who raised this point. And in the scenario I mention above where the family could have gained entry prior to the pool becoming very busy, it is exactly this kind of capability and initiative that we would hope would be exercised by young parents if indeed the overcrowding had posed a valid danger.

My personal opinion is that too much legislation and interference by officials is actually eroding the development of personal responsibility to the extent that it can create more danger rather than less.

GG.
Jupiter
GG an interesting point is whether they are implementing H and S or National Industry Guidelines.If the latter I would assume that there must be stated numbers of persons using a pool at any one time eg 50 x25 metre pool would hold 100 persons.Just a shame that these issues are not made clearer to the public instead of being suddenly pulled out the hat.
Doug1
We live in an imperfect world and the pool staff probably could and should have handled the situation better but at the end of the day the safety of the kids in the pool is paramount to the staff and if any accidents did occur the first people the public would blame would be the pool attendants.

________________________
Jupiter
I read an item,not that long ago but unfortunately I cannot remember exactly where(maybe some of our posters can help) which basically said that society now,via H&S and such like rules and regs
basically wraps our children in cotton wool and thus leaves them ill prepared to face the tough realities of later life.I think certain organisations,although I have no facts figures or other data,do make full use of these rules in order to minimise the risk of any claims against them.
Doug1
Spot on Joop. As every year goes on the rules and regs regarding kids gets weirder, ask any kindly dad who does a local football team or takes kids swimming. I read just recently of a local school football game when one of the kids had a tumble and the guy looking after the team was not allowed to go over and carry the lad off (this was a minor tumble) because of rules. Another school, in England, banned kids playing conkers in the playground in case any kid got injured. This is a subject that could go on and on mad.gif
Goodness me when i was a kid i was climbing big trees and sometimes falling out of them and running up and down back court dykes and falling of these as well thats what toughens you up for what life is going to throw at you later on

___________________
Scotsman
I have read this a couple of times and I dont really get it!! Are they saying that health and safety rules apply some times and then they dont apply at other times?? I dont think this makes sense and how is a family supposed to plan a tip if they dont know if they will get in or not. If its a policy then it should be applied all the time otherwise its not a policy but just a bit of a mess.... to me looking at it at least.
Heather
I have never in all the years I have taken my g'children to Easterhouse Swimming Pool saw it busy even during School holidays. That always surprised me as for for quite a few years the Glasgow School children get free passes into the Glasgow Swimming Pools. As far as I know they apply for the passes through their School.

As we have not been to the Pool much in the past year, things must be picking up for the Pool to have been very busy the day those parents were turned away with their children.
Scotsman
QUOTE (Doug1 @ 9th Jul 2012, 09:43am) *
Spot on Joop. As every year goes on the rules and regs regarding kids gets weirder, ask any kindly dad who does a local football team or takes kids swimming. I read just recently of a local school football game when one of the kids had a tumble and the guy looking after the team was not allowed to go over and carry the lad off (this was a minor tumble) because of rules. Another school, in England, banned kids playing conkers in the playground in case any kid got injured. This is a subject that could go on and on mad.gif
Goodness me when i was a kid i was climbing big trees and sometimes falling out of them and running up and down back court dykes and falling of these as well thats what toughens you up for what life is going to throw at you later on

___________________

Ha-ha.... I remember all that and also looking for the odd wee treasure to be found in the middens!!

It really is sad that so many kids now dont get out and play and have a bit of a rough and tumble.... and now they are even getting stopped going to the local swimming baths. We used to all pile into the Elvan Street baths on a Saturday morning and it was pure mayhem!! None of us ever got into any bother.... although you would had to watch oot for the cockroaches!!

Whats going to happen to these cotton wool kids when they grow up??
GuestDon.stuart@xt
Rules are rules and can you imagine outcry if some wee kid was drowned. The Coatbridge pool saved the day because they had different rules. So they go there because safety rules aren't so strict. What's the hue and cry about.
Heather
Scotsman, we were the same at the North Woodside swimming pool, we were always packed in like sardines after waiting about an hour in the queue. Then we were lucky to get 20/30 minutes in the pool.
As the girls pool was small, we used to sneak into the boys pool and sometime got away with it, sometimes chased back to our own wee pool.

We were there every Saturday morning and pestered the life out our mum for the money to go as often as we could during the School holidays.
When I was old enough to go on my own, I was there every Saturday morning as soon as the pool opened.

I still have somewhere up in the Loft, the Swimming Certificates I won swimming in the Glasgow School Gala's, including my Life Saving Certificate.
Jupiter
Heather Im glad you put on your memories of Woodside Baths.I was beginning to wonder if I had imagined the packed pool.Things must have changed by the time angel went there.
wee davy
This is complete non-sense to me.

The only reason the 'industry' have the rules they do, is to protect them selves from prosecution.

Councils/private concerns can only provide a level of service, which for ONE set of parents, will be inadequate - whilst for others, totally acceptable

In my view, the only way to ADEQUATELY supervise a pool, is to have the right number of lifeguards - unfortunately it is simply not practical to have 1 guard, per 5 square metres of pool lol

Even loving parents/grandparents are not necessarily technically 'savvy' when it comes to knowing what to do in the event of an emergency.

The answer? completely demolish ALL swimming pools, and force parents, guardians to take all their kids to the seaside - MUCH more healthy for the little cherubs lol

The added benefits of this policy, is you would quickly teach said children a very salutory lesson - which is - there aint no heated pools, out there, & its bliddy CAULD !!
frame
Another day another receptionist and the situation may not even have come up. These health and safety laws that are creeping ever so much into everyday life are fine, if there is some consistency. There isn't.
"the crowded pool" is the problem here. It's like a crowded store, how many times has a mother or father turned around and somebody has disappeared. In the case of the store, if the kid can't be found almost immediately, then security moves into play. But switch that situation to a swimming pool and you just know what kind of trauma starts to penetrate a parent's psyche.

Where the inconsistency occurs is that not all situations where there is a threat to safety are looked upon as being dangerous by Health and Safety.

Take cyclists on pavements where there isn't specially marked out zones for them. These days you see quite a few in the city centres. What about young children being led along by parents holding their hand, someone on a bike weaving their way through the crowds, no prizes for where the danger lies there. Statistics on average are quite substantial for injury to pedestrians by cyclists on pavements. I know there is a danger on high traffic roads for cyclists, so they have a case too.

Skateboarders, another problem. About a year ago I came across this accident where there had been an injury to both a youngster and a dog. The skateboarder attempted to go around the little girl from behind who had a small dog on a lead with one hand and holding her dad's hand with the other. Just as he made the manoeuvre the dog moved out and right into his path. He took evasive action but hit the girl, the impact knocked her to the ground. The dog was injured because he fell on it. The father was mad enough to want to kill everyone in sight.

As yet I don't see any health and safety laws pertaining to that. When that skateboard accident happened I was actually amazed to see this guy appear out of nowhere and inform the girl's dad that he was a solicitor, they must be trolling the cities looking for buisness, he advised the father that he should take no action against the skateboarder but rather, take a case out against the council since they allow it to happen.

The pool incident was the right call I think, because of the over crowding. However, as Martin said, the family might have come at an earlier time when it was less crowded but then would have had crowds building up while they were in there and how do you legislate for that.
stratson
QUOTE (angel @ 8th Jul 2012, 11:46pm) *
Just my 2 cents worth here .......

If the Easterhouse pool was as busy as the spokesperson said and according to their Health and safety guidlines ,I think the right decision was made , however , I can't for the life of me figure what the outcome had to do with the Commonwealth Games .

I'm very pleased that this young family did manage to get swimming and participate in this wonderful activity .

Am in agreement with Angel on this one. thumbup.gif
angel
I would guess , once a cetain number of people in the pool was reached then no more allowed in , there would have to be a cut off .
Katherine Paterson
Hi everybody, and what would have happened to me. I took 3 or 4 of my bros and sis to Woodside Pool regularly in the fifties. I was perhaps 12 then- I watched out for them of course. No lifeguards then. Just a lady with a long pole with a hook at the end of it to drag us out if we were over the time limit.

Nobody thought anything about that - she could have injured us with that big hook - no wonder kids today are halfmad - theyre being mollycoddled like nothing else.

I say poor souls.
Katherine
Guest
It would be good to let my young kids go out like I did when I was young but the fact is that there just is not as much green space as there used to be because there has been loads of flats built into every free square. We're in one! And also the swings and things in the play parks that are left have usually been vandalised or are filled with broken glass left by the young boozers who are out every night of the week now. Believe me, I would love to let them roam like we did but its just not an option today.

Ann Marie.
mlconnelly
I went regularly to Woodside in the 60's, even after we moved away I still went with my brothers, 5 and 3 years older than me, every Saturday. I had to change in the girls changing area and was then allowed into the boys pool because my brothers were there to look after me though I would say they spent more time trying to drown me than not laugh.gif. Does anyone remember the name of the female pool attendant. She had dark curly hair and looked like a man and I though she was really scary. Brilliant memories of Woodside. laugh.gif Mary
Jupiter
She was a man and her name was Neilly.
mlconnelly
I seem to think her name was either Maggie or Betty and it would around 1964/65. Do you think its the same person Joop? Mary
ashfield
QUOTE (Katherine Paterson @ 9th Jul 2012, 02:23pm) *
Hi everybody, and what would have happened to me. I took 3 or 4 of my bros and sis to Woodside Pool regularly in the fifties. I was perhaps 12 then- I watched out for them of course. No lifeguards then. Just a lady with a long pole with a hook at the end of it to drag us out if we were over the time limit.

Nobody thought anything about that - she could have injured us with that big hook - no wonder kids today are halfmad - theyre being mollycoddled like nothing else.

I say poor souls.
Katherine

Katherine, do you have a brother called Jim who went to St Teresa's. He would be about 62 or 63 now.

Sorry for going off topic rolleyes.gif My solution to the problem would be to remove all that nasty, dangerous water from the pool sleep.gif
Jupiter
Mary, I was being a wee bit TIC but there was a guy called Neil worked there for years and the last I heard he lived in Summerston.An amiable big guy.
Heather
Katherine, we were the same.

We always went with our older sister and friends with their older sisters. A crowd of us all went together and we were all School age. This would be during the late 40s early 50s.

We moved to Barlanark in 1953 and went to Shettleston Swimming Pool which was always busy, but not as busy as Woodside as we seldom had to queue up to get in.

The only time I saw the Woodside Swimming Pool quiet was when I was married and not working, I used to go during the day when all the children were at School.
mlconnelly
QUOTE (Jupiter @ 9th Jul 2012, 08:16pm) *
Mary, I was being a wee bit TIC but there was a guy called Neil worked there for years and the last I heard he lived in Summerston.An amiable big guy.

The woman I remember Joop was horrible, a real bully. But I didn't have too much to do with her as I was allowed into the boys pool with my brothers most of the time. I hated it when it was my sister and my cousin who took me swimming as I had to stay in the wee pool. Other than that , I had a great time at Woodside. Mary
elaine24
The same thing happened to me at Perth pool. I had two 8 yr old twins and and one 7 yr old and they would not let me take all three in the pool. I had to go in with two and one had to wait on a chair with a drink and then I had to take one out and swap them with the child sitting down and then go back in the pools - RIDICULOUS.
Lobbey Dosser
My father was a competitive swimmer when young. He taught me to swim when I was 4 years old. At 11 years I gained an intermediate life saver certificate. This gave me a free pass for one year to the Summerton rd. baths. I never heard of but one drowning and that was in an over crowded pool. The nanny state, always imposed under the auspices of pseudo socialism, is nothing short of enforcing social control over an increasingly oppressed population. Their hidden agenda is one of what is best for you, and we know better than you what is best. After all their impositions are always couched in ambiguity as if it were reasonable and socially acceptable. Soon you will be kept off the streets as cars can and do kill; be told, as with comedy what you will watch on T.V. Remember how Stalin and Hitler had totally compliant populaces made up of seemingly intelligent citizens.
GG
QUOTE (angel @ 8th Jul 2012, 10:46pm) *
Just my 2 cents worth here .......

If the Easterhouse pool was as busy as the spokesperson said and according to their Health and safety guidlines ,I think the right decision was made , however , I can't for the life of me figure what the outcome had to do with the Commonwealth Games ...

Hi Angel, many thanks for your post. Regarding the link with the Commonwealth Games: as noted, a primary aim of the games is to bring about a change in Glaswegians' participation levels in sporting and leisure activities. However, local policies are out-of-step with the declared aims of the games because city politicians have overseen a programme of cuts to sporting and leisure facilities across the city. On the one hand politicians are spending 525million on an event aimed at getting people to participate in healthy activities, while on the other hand those same politicians have implemented policies which limit the availability of public access to healthy activities.

Example, from the Evening Times in February 2010:
QUOTE
Workers 'Will Lose Out As Leisure Centre Hours Cut'

Thousands of Glasgow workers could be forced to stop using gyms and swimming pools as reduced opening hours threaten to freeze out people with jobs.

Leisure centres will be forced to close early as Culture and Sport Glasgow [renamed as Glasgow Life] tries to save cash. It has already announced plans to shut a dozen community centres.

Critics say the new closing times as early as 8pm on weekdays for many facilities mean thousands of city centre workers will not be able to make it home and out again in time to use the gym.

Facilities such as Easterhouse, Drumchapel and Castlemilk will all now close at 8pm compared to 9.00pm right now.

Others which opened even later will close at 9pm from April 1, with more than 20 facilities affected across the city. ...

http://evening-times.vlex.co.uk/vid/worker...rs-cut-77360893

It is quite possible that had the city invested in its leisure facilities, as opposed to cutting back, then the young family would not have been excluded from Easterhouse swimming pool.

GG.
Dylan
I think these health and safety rules are outrageous but they have nothing to do with Socialism, pseudo or otherwise.

Most of these stupid rules are disowned by the official Health and Safety people and are neither suggested or imposed by them.

The root cause is our blame and litegeous society and the rules are suggested by Lawyers, who are not Socialists.

If an incident occurrs the Press go into meltdown and a scapegoat must be found to blame with someone loosing their job.

One dead child !!!

Then follows the negligence claims for compensation with the ambulance chasers competing for the business..

Is it any wonder they risk access and try to plan for every contingency ?

Sad but true.
Scotsman
I think a lot of what you are saying is right Dylan but one thing is that a lot of the socialists who go about now are also lawyers or in some profession like that so they are just creating jobs for themselves or their pals. It wasnae like that in my day when a socialist was a hard worker who fought for his working class community. Now it is totally different!!
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