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Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (Heather @ 24th Feb 2012, 06:29pm) *
Alex, I'm perfectly well aware of the Dictionary meaning of 'economic migrant', but I am also aware that most people apply it to those who come to this Country for a better living because of the Benefits they hope to claim that they can't claim in their own Country.

The facts are against you. The proportion of UK nationals of working age and claiming benefits is approximately 16.6% of the population (DWP figures, 2011). The proportion of non-UK nationals living in Britain and of working age, claiming benefits, is 6.6%. So-called 'economic migrants' are less likely to be on benefits by a long way, than anyone else in the UK.
Heather
Well it's 6.6% too many as far as I'm concerned. mad.gif

What facts are you talking about? wacko.gif
Rabbie
QUOTE (Melody @ 24th Feb 2012, 09:28am) *
All Glaswegians are mongrels anyway.


I'll be yer bit of ruff if ye'll be mine! wub.gif
Melody
laugh.gif laugh.gif Awright Rabbie, ah don't like hybrids they're awfy temperamental. laugh.gif
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (Heather @ 24th Feb 2012, 07:51pm) *
Well it's 6.6% too many as far as I'm concerned.

Since hardly any immigrants, economic or otherwise, are claiming benefits, and are therefore less of a drain on the welfare system than native Britons, there can be hardly any justification whatsoever for the 'Daily Mail'-like myths propagated about 'benefit tourism', and it follows that those who come here, overwhelmingly, add to the treasury by working and paying taxes.

I'm curious, though, to find out if your grandchildren, if they become economic migrants, will have houses ready-bought and jobs ready engaged when they get to passport control in their destination countries of choice. You can't have one rule for yourself and a different rule for everybody else, surely?
wombat
"i aint no mongrel sez heather"

wink.gif well heather i'm a thoroughbred and i'm scratching his back laugh.gif
we take it in turns.
Heather
Those of my family who emmigrated had to have jobs and the cost of rental accommodation before emmigrating. They stayed with friends whilst looking for accommodation. Then after saving up their money they bought their own house.

Maybe some of those Members on the Board could tell us about their experience when they emmigrated.

Aye Wombat I've heard of that: You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. laugh.gif
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (Heather @ 24th Feb 2012, 10:17pm) *
Those of my family who emmigrated had to have jobs and the cost of rental accommodation before emmigrating.

I don't doubt your word, but I'm curious to know how you can get an interview and an appointment for a job in a country you've never been to before and with an employer who by definition has never met you. And I'm curious to know why you think this is different from the migrants arriving in this country who overwhelmingly do not claim benefits.

Dave Grieve
What i meant by asylum seekers being really economic refugees was the majority of them PRETENDED to be in Britain because of political reasons when in effect they where looking for a better life for themselves knowing full well they would not qualify for emigrant status.

On Tomi's question if they dont qualify as emigrants based on skill assement they need to have enough cash money to provide for their housing and other needs for them and their family, just the same as in Jersey.

Here in SA they are looking for over 50,000 SKILLED workers this year they wont let any dross in and all applicants will be interviewed overseas.

A lot of the companies here provide housing for their employees as there is no goverment housing or benifits available.

Also I know from being involved in the process that a lot of the local companies will send their HR dept overseas to meet potential job applicants.

If 6.6% of legal emigrants are claiming benifits that is only the provable drain on the economy, the missing failed asylum seekers must be living somewhere, must be eating somewhere, just by being in Britain they are stealing jobs from UK citizens that could and should be filled by locals.
If Red Roosters post is to be believed (and I have no reason not to believe it) there are uncountable jobs being lost to local job seekers due to lax criminal goverment policies

When I left Glasgow I had a letter in my pocket from a company in SA guaranteeing me a job all I had to do was get to the company, I also had a job offer from a company in Canada
red rooster
Dave,
The figure is 371,000 immigrants claiming benefits, out of 5.5 million total claims, these are government figures, (the last government did not count immigrants claiming benefits.)
This gives a figure of 6.7%

I dont see how a % figure of total immigrants can be given as the government has admitted on many occasions that they dont know how many immigrants are in the country.

To me the figure of 5.5million benefit claims is a disgrace, if we are in a situation with that many out of work or in low paid jobs, why are we allowing half a million new immigrants a year into the country?

Especially at a time when so many redundancies are being made, jobs are being transferred overseas and so many manufactured goods imported.

Why in a country with tons of healh and safety, working time directives, and other red tape , are sweatshops allowed?






Dave Grieve
"I dont see how a % figure of total immigrants can be given as the government has admitted on many occasions that they dont know how many immigrants are in the country.

To me the figure of 5.5million benefit claims is a disgrace, if we are in a situation with that many out of work or in low paid jobs, why are we allowing half a million new immigrants a year into the country?"

Thats all I have ever been on about, there has NEVER been a time when Britain should have allowed immigrants into the UK, there have always been more job seekers than jobs everywhere throughout Britain since the beginning of the last century and even with two world wars and umpteen other minor skirmishes there was still a shortage of labour.

I have read other peoples posts about only skilled workers being allowed here in the 50s and 60s and as far as I could see that was just a lot of Goverment b***s**t.

If there was such a shortage of skilled labour in the country why was no effort made to train or retrain the available labour pool.
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 25th Feb 2012, 11:18am) *
... If there was such a shortage of skilled labour in the country why was no effort made to train or retrain the available labour pool.

That's a good point. Over here, many firms are required to train up young people even for jobs that may not exist. When their training period is over they might still find themselves unable to find vacancies but at least there is a potential skilled pool available for the eventuality that things pick up and a good number of kids didn't go straight from school to fill the ranks of the unemployed while gaining work experience. In this country of course there is an increasing shortage of new births each year and although there is a yearly increase in imigration; skilled or otherwise, the Germans do tend to look past tomorrow and try to plan for future needs.
Dexter St. Clair
QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 24th Feb 2012, 09:05pm) *
I'm curious, though, to find out if your grandchildren, if they become economic migrants, will have houses ready-bought

Where are these ready bought houses? My ancestors came to Glasgow over a 100 years ago. Citizens of Great Britain of course like everyone else in the Empire. They came to improve their circumstances and had to put up with a load of criticism from the existing population most of whose predecessors had arrived at the most 100 years before them. Luckily enough hey met up with local citizens who shred their experiences and helped them get on. Their children suffered prejudice from a minority. It's nice to see that some of those prejudices are still about to remind you of times past.

Is there a thread for having a go at the poor and another for those in receipt of disability allowance?
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 25th Feb 2012, 07:30am) *
What i meant by asylum seekers being really economic refugees was the majority of them PRETENDED to be in Britain because of political reasons

How exactly would you know this?

Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 25th Feb 2012, 07:30am) *
If 6.6% of legal emigrants are claiming benifits that is only the provable drain on the economy, the missing failed asylum seekers must be living somewhere, must be eating somewhere, just by being in Britain they are stealing jobs from UK citizens

So immigrants are a bad thing because (i) they don't work and so are a drain on welfare, or (ii) they do work and therefore steal jobs.

Some fairly muddled thinking there.


Tam C
QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 25th Feb 2012, 02:40pm) *
So immigrants are a bad thing because (i) they don't work and so are a drain on welfare, or (ii) they do work and therefore steal jobs.

Some fairly muddled thinking there.

Could never get my head round that logic have been hearing it for years first in Scotland then England followed by Denmark and Greece .I must be the wrong type of economic immigrant (and thats what I've been) could never figure out how to drain the system and steal jobs at the same time .Then again I'm just a piece of scruff from Springburn who wants to just get on with life .In my book the biggest rip off merchants are politictians and their spin doctor cronies
Cheers Tam C
wombat
red rooster sez: Why in a country with tons of healh and safety, working time directives, and other red tape , are sweatshops allowed?

dry.gif greed? smile.gif




Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (wombat @ 25th Feb 2012, 09:43pm) *
red rooster sez: Why in a country with tons of healh and safety, working time directives, and other red tape , are sweatshops allowed?

Just a couple of years ago, my wife and I spent a short break in Brussels. She was in the building industry, so had a keen eye for things to do with building site works and regulations. What astonished us both, on seeing building works in and around Brussels, was the prevalence of practices that would have Health and Safety inspectors here blowing a gasket. Building sites with no hard hats, workers on sites with soft canvas shoes, patently shoddy construction practices, hazardous sites not fenced off from the public, all right in the centre of Brussels, and this where so many safety directives apparently emanate. We've similar scenes throughout trips all over Europe, and it does seem like only the British take EU H&S directives seriously.
Jupiter
It will be interesting to see what kind of policy a new independant Scottish Govt(if elected) would adopt in relation to immigration,EU citizens,asylum seekers etc.I think, and I will stand corrected that many of the asylum seekers presently in Scotland are here because of Home Office dispersal policies and cash incentives to local councils to accomodate them.
john.mcn
I've had family emigrate to Australia recently and they had to be skilled/qualified in a particular occupation, sponsored by a company or person, and speak English( i think Weegie qualifies). Job interviews were held pre-arranged and in person on a trip there, as was the availabilty and price of property. I heard similar from someone prior to emigrating to New Zealand. I would like to think we would have similar laws/rules for non EU immigration but that would do little to deter the ones who come here on student or visitor visas and disappear into the black market(no pun intended). The only way to deter them is to make it too much of a financial risk to would be dodgy bas.. employers, forget the 'piddly' up to 10k per illegal fine, class it much like they would do with drug dealers and seize everything deemed to be ill gotten gains, be it business, cars or even the house of the owner. No jobs, legal or otherwise=less illegals.
To prevent the 'bogus asylumer', simply instruct airlines if they want to conduct business in the UK they will fingerprint and copy the passports of all passengers prior to leaving for the UK. Anyone trying to hide their identity or country of residence will now find it nigh on impossible to do so, and it will be easier to deport them back. The ones that come by boat, charge them with entering the country illegaly and send them right back by boat. Any party with a chance of winning an election puts that forward i'll vote for them, either that or i'm emigrating (ohh the irony wink.gif )
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 26th Feb 2012, 11:44am) *
To prevent the 'bogus asylumer', simply instruct airlines if they want to conduct business in the UK they will fingerprint and copy the passports of all passengers prior to leaving for the UK.

You mean turn every country into a police state?
red rooster
not as if we're a police state already

QUOTE
Royston has a medieval cave apparently used by the Knights Templar, a twice-weekly market and a football team that finished third in the Molten Spartan South Midlands Premier League. But one thing it does not have is much of a crime problem. A small Hertfordshire town of just 15,000 people, close to where the county meets Cambridgeshire and Essex, it is home to chemicals company Johnson Matthey and luxury confectioners Hotel Chocolat.

It is an overwhelmingly law-abiding community – there was a murder last year and a bank cash machine was ramraided, and there is the odd report of antisocial street behaviour, but there is little else to give residents a sleepless night. Yet in March a local newspaper revealed that Royston was about to become the first town in the country to have a sophisticated set of police cameras installed on every road in and out.

The seven cameras ringing Royston will record the numberplate of every vehicle that passes them, check the plate against a series of databases and send alerts to police if the vehicle is untaxed, uninsured, suspected of involvement in a crime, or appears on a local or national police "hotlist". The system – known as automatic numberplate recognition (ANPR) – has been in operation since the 1990s and, while relatively little-known, is controversial enough to have developed its own cliches. Proponents maintain that "innocent motorists have nothing to fear," while the anti-ANPR lobby routinely describes the cameras as "the biggest surveillance network that the public has never heard of".
red rooster
QUOTE (wombat @ 25th Feb 2012, 08:43pm) *
red rooster sez: Why in a country with tons of healh and safety, working time directives, and other red tape , are sweatshops allowed?

dry.gif greed? smile.gif

Greed is probably the reason why they exist I was asking why they are allowed

the police have the technology and enough manpower to track down a drunk woman on a tram ranting about immigrants and they can't detect a factory full of illegal immigrants being forced to work 12 hours a day for almost half the minimum wage and claiming benefits illegally at the same time.

who cares about exploitation and enslavement of immigrants, as long as you don't call them nasty names it's OK.

john.mcn
QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 26th Feb 2012, 01:06pm) *
You mean turn every country into a police state?

If i didn't post that then i didn't mean it. People do not have to come here, if they dont like the idea of being identifiable as they leave an aeroplane they can piss of somewhere else, or in fact stay where they are.
red rooster
QUOTE (Heather @ 24th Feb 2012, 09:17pm) *
Maybe some of those Members on the Board could tell us about their experience when they emmigrated.

Although married to a malaysian will have to stay for 10 years before applying for citizenship, have to renew visa after 3 years, have to pay for any medical treatment, no benefits of any kind and have to deposit a wad of cash with a local bank in case of emergency.

As far as illegal immigrants are concerned they have the strange notion that illegal means against the law and are inclined to throw them in jail and have interpreted the word "deported" as meaning "take to airport and put on aeroplane" after they have been punished for the crime.
Rabbie
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 26th Feb 2012, 01:27pm) *
If i didn't post that then i didn't mean it. People do not have to come here, if they dont like the idea of being identifiable as they leave an aeroplane they can piss of somewhere else, or in fact stay where they are.

Right that's me oot of here then. Cannea even go fur a Jimmy Riddle these days without being spied apon, it bordering on bliddy rediculous. It's a simple misuse of technology and survaillance hidden under the guise of "Security."

Many will come, as the UK compared to their country of origin is a paradise, which may be hard to belive despite the political mess the UK is currently in. However, if you have ever spent any time out in certain regions of the Middle East and Africa, it's a no brainer why people want out.

Ye cannea slate fowks for seeking what they believe is safer or better life for themselves. I would defy many so say they would not do the same in if faced with the circumstances some of these piur sowels are in.

There but by the Grace of God go many of us.

Anyway, it's jist aboot time to go see Scotland give them frogs a proper garlic stuffering.
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 26th Feb 2012, 02:27pm) *
If i didn't post that then i didn't mean it. People do not have to come here, if they dont like the idea of being identifiable as they leave an aeroplane they can piss of somewhere else, or in fact stay where they are.

It's not just other people, though. It's you. And your family. And everybody else. Where do we piss off to if we don't like being fingerprinted just to be on the road to somewhere?


Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (red rooster @ 26th Feb 2012, 01:52pm) *
not as if we're a police state already

QUOTE
Proponents maintain that "innocent motorists have nothing to fear," while the anti-ANPR lobby routinely describes the cameras as "the biggest surveillance network that the public has never heard of".


If I were a local resident, I might fancy a publicity campaign that involved big billposters with a suitably ominous design reading variations on 'BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU', and 'BIG BROTHER IS TRACKING YOU EVERYWHERE' and the like, perhaps with pictures of a big staring eye. Plenty of scope to make such a scheme a PR disaster.
john.mcn
QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 26th Feb 2012, 08:11pm) *
It's not just other people, though. It's you. And your family. And everybody else. Where do we piss off to if we don't like being fingerprinted just to be on the road to somewhere?

If biometric passports included fingerprints there would be no reason to fingerprint or copy the passports of UK citizens. If you dont like getting fingerprinted, then you dont go abroad. I would say the same to people who dont like getting photographed.
People who travel to the US need a visa if they dont have a biometric passport, if you dont like that then dont travel to the USA. If foreigners coming here didn't want 'extra security' measures then simply go elsewhere, the legitimate travelers i'm sure would have no problem .
The sooner we treat illegal immigrants as criminals the better imho, and these measures are just crime prevention wink.gif
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 26th Feb 2012, 10:07pm) *
If biometric passports included fingerprints there would be no reason to fingerprint or copy the passports of UK citizens. If you dont like getting fingerprinted, then you dont go abroad.

I'm not a criminal. Why should I accept being treated like one?
john.mcn
Fingerprints much like photographs are a form of identification, should we not make sure the people coming into this country are who they say they are on their passport? You would not be treated as a criminal having fingerprints on a biometric anymore than having a photograph countersigned by a professional person. It is only a matter of time till it is compulsary in the UK, most European countries have it as standard on their own citizens and they may start insisting it for travellers as well.
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 27th Feb 2012, 12:03am) *
Fingerprints much like photographs are a form of identification,

What's wrong with photographs as a form of identification?

john.mcn
QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 27th Feb 2012, 12:23am) *
What's wrong with photographs as a form of identification?

Obviously not enough or the majority of EU countries would not be going down this route.
Dave Grieve
QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 25th Feb 2012, 02:40pm) *
So immigrants are a bad thing because (i) they don't work and so are a drain on welfare, or (ii) they do work and therefore steal jobs.

Some fairly muddled thinking there.

Nowhere do I say that immigrants are a bad thing because they are a drain on welfare or stealing jobs.

I did say that failed asylum seekers must be living somewhere,and must be eating. So unless they are involved in crime or begging the only thing left is working so just by remaining in Britain they are stealing jobs.

Not so much muddled thinking as muddled understanding.
Dave Grieve
QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 25th Feb 2012, 02:36pm) *
How exactly would you know this?


I did not claim to know this in post 41# I clearly state that it is my opinion.
Melody
Try the Citizenship Test.

Would you pass?

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/make-br...itizenship-test
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 27th Feb 2012, 03:41am) *
Obviously not enough or the majority of EU countries would not be going down this route.

I travel throughout Europe, from France to Italy to Spain, Hungary, Lithuania, Germany, Croatia, Estonia, Slovenia, Switzerland, Austria, Portugal and many other places. I have never been asked to provide a fingerprint. Always a photograph.
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 27th Feb 2012, 09:34am) *
Nowhere do I say that immigrants are a bad thing because they are a drain on welfare

This looks like a pretty solid statement that unemployed immigrants are a drain on welfare :

"They should only be allowed in under strictly controlled conditions. These would include that they are able to provide a minimum standard of living for themelves and their dependents without recourse to public funds"
and
"If 6.6% of legal emigrants are claiming benifits that is only the provable drain on the economy"
(implying in the process that the drain on the economy may be even greater)

QUOTE
or stealing jobs.
"just by being in Britain they are stealing jobs from UK citizens"

QUOTE
Not so much muddled thinking as muddled understanding.

Not so much muddled understanding, as muddled recollection of your own posts.
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 27th Feb 2012, 09:36am) *
I did not claim to know this in post 41# I clearly state that it is my opinion.

For the record, you also state that you have no idea whatsoever that it's true and no evidence to support your belief. People may get confused if they read something that looks like a statement of fact and don't realise they then have to look back over all your previous posts immediately to see if somewhere you have said you don't really know what you're talking about.
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Melody @ 27th Feb 2012, 08:56am) *
Try the Citizenship Test.

Would you pass?


http://www.channel4.com/programmes/make-br...itizenship-test


Yippeeeeeee, I only got 54%. it's official, i'm not British biggrin.gif
Dave Grieve
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 27th Feb 2012, 11:44am) *
Yippeeeeeee, I only got 54%. it's official, i'm not British biggrin.gif

Better than me I only got 52% biggrin.gif

I think not knowing how many bank holidays in England nor knowing St Georges day let me down badly
john.mcn
QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 27th Feb 2012, 10:27am) *
I travel throughout Europe, from France to Italy to Spain, Hungary, Lithuania, Germany, Croatia, Estonia, Slovenia, Switzerland, Austria, Portugal and many other places. I have never been asked to provide a fingerprint. Always a photograph.

Countries in Europe where passports contain fingerprint data.

Austria, Czech republic, Estonia, Finland, France ,Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Luxembuorg, Holland, Poland, Romania, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden. If you have been issued a passport in any of these countries in the last few years, fingerprints will be included in the biometric chip. The UK does not have this, so why on earth would they ask for a fingerprint if they cant check it against the passport info? Also, just because there is fingerprint data on the passport, it doesn't mean you would have to scan your hand everytime you fly, it just means they can add it to random checks.
mlconnelly
I failed too which didn't surprise me and, to be honest, think most people would fail this test, if even if its only by a small percentage. As A Scot I can't think why I would know when St Georges Day is (strangely I got that 1 right) or how many bank holidays there are in England. Also as a heathen, why would I want to know the percentage of people who attend church services. Does anyone know why that would be an important thing to know for someone who wants to enter the country? rolleyes.gif Mary
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 27th Feb 2012, 12:29pm) *
it just means they can add it to random checks.

Sure, but I cannot be randomly checked in this way. And random checks will establish no more than my existing photographic passport will. Random sampling on a small proportion of a larger population to find a small effect is statistically unsound.
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (mlconnelly @ 27th Feb 2012, 01:53pm) *
I failed too which didn't surprise me and, to be honest, think most people would fail this test

I failed it pretty comprehensively, at around 30%. Some of the questions seemed to have little evident connexion to what it means to be British, like knowing what percent of the population is Muslim, or whether a three-year-old can watch a U(niversal) classification of film, or a question about the French Huguenots.
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (Melody @ 27th Feb 2012, 08:56am) *
Try the Citizenship Test.

Would you pass?

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/make-br...itizenship-test

REJECTED 29% ... Ach well, I lied about livin' in Scotland. laugh.gif

I found the questions were more likely to ascertain whether or not one was slightly racist, which of course; as a bigot, I'm not. tongue.gif
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (mlconnelly @ 27th Feb 2012, 12:53pm) *
Also as a heathen, why would I want to know the percentage of people who attend church services.



As an atheist, even i was surprised that only 10% of the population regularly attend services.

Puts to bed the myth that Britain is a god fearing Christian country, especially when religious leaders try to force their views and opinions on the rest of the country.
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 27th Feb 2012, 03:32pm) *
Puts to bed the myth that Britain is a god fearing Christian country, especially when religious leaders try to force their views and opinions on the rest of the country.

That is a non sequitur. You don't have to go to church on Sundays to be a God-fearing Christian. And I'm not aware of any religious leader trying to force his views and opinions on me.
Dave Grieve
QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 27th Feb 2012, 10:41am) *
This looks like a pretty solid statement that unemployed immigrants are a drain on welfare :

"They should only be allowed in under strictly controlled conditions. These would include that they are able to provide a minimum standard of living for themelves and their dependents without recourse to public funds"


This was said in reference to potential immigrants that do not qualify as immigrants into Britain

and
"If 6.6% of legal emigrants are claiming benifits that is only the provable drain on the economy"

are you trying to say that any money paid out in benifits is not a drain on the economy?


(implying in the process that the drain on the economy may be even greater)

this was said in reference to failed asylum seekers

"just by being in Britain they are stealing jobs from UK citizens"


this was said about failed asylum seekers

Not so much muddled understanding, as muddled recollection of your own posts.

Alex you are a master of deception, you have constantly since I first noticed you replying to anyone on this board been at pains to

A either knock their argument

B come up with obscure references to justify your point of view.

C Been constantly selective about others peoples posts and will go round in circles to justify your arguments...


Nobody else claims not to have understood what I posted,

Nobody else complains about having to go back and check on what I said.

Nobody else claims that I am trying to deceive them, could it be that they have a better grasp of the subject and they are able to understand without having to reread it a few times

Try firstly following the topic, and then read and understand the post not just reading and reacting.


I await your predictable reaction with no particular interest
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 27th Feb 2012, 04:28pm) *
A either knock their argument

Well, you have me there. It's a forum for discussing topical issues, and here I am, caught disputing arguments I disagree with.

QUOTE
B come up with obscure references to justify your point of view.

Well well again, here I am, caught out, providing references to substantiate my point of view. I've often preferred this to saying, 'I've no idea and nothing to support my opinion either'. If that is my fault, I willingly acknowledge my guilt.

QUOTE
C Been constantly selective about others peoples posts and will go round in circles to justify your arguments...

Now here I don't think you have the advantage of me. I quote what is necessary to show the point I am contesting. And I never paraphrase. I quote, just as I quoted you saying exactly the words you later disavow.

QUOTE
Nobody else claims not to have understood what I posted

I'm afraid I cannot wait for someone else to tell me what they understood or didn't. The issue here is simple. You said immigrants were stealing jobs from UK natives. Either you said this, or you did not. I can cite the post in which you said exactly this.

QUOTE
Nobody else claims that I am trying to deceive them

Neither did I. I said you showed muddled thinking, not deception.
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