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GG
There was interesting perspective on the John Terry racism row in the Scotsman yesterday. Stuart Waiton, a lecturer at Abertay University, suggested that the on-field spat between two English footballers, John Terry and Anton Ferdinand, has been blown out of all proportion, fuelled by a middle-class media and policitical establishment intent on using the 'race card' to stick with which to beat the "hoi polloi" when they act in a manner which offends middle-class sensitivities.

QUOTE
Punters paying the penalty for racism storm

... Today, it seems to be little more than a new form of etiquette for the middle classes who express their “offended-ness” when the hoi polloi call each other nasty names. ...

However, if we stand back from the moralising, apolitical, official anti-racism today, the John Terry farce looks rather different. I asked one of the admin workers at my university what they thought about John Terry being taken to court for calling Anton Ferdinand a racist name. “It’s a joke” she replied. “Grown men telling tales on one another?”

But what is obvious to some, is unfortunately a bizarre pantomime of confused offence for others. Surely you don’t have to be a card-carrying British National Party member to think there is something wrong with the whole Terry-Ferdinand thing? Players in the heat of a game often slag each other off. This doesn’t mean it is right, but does it make it criminal? Unfortunately the institutionally sanctioned response to being called names today is not to give your opponent a piece of your mind, but to be offended and to go to the authorities. Within the media, the correct response is to feel offended for the offended. ...

Full article here:
http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/opini...storm_1_2111122

Do you think the John terry incident has been over-played and would have been better settled between two grown men away from glare of the media/legal system? Is public money being well-spent in pursuing the case? Is it right for the authorities to intervene to ensure that any alleged racial comments are dealt with using the full force of the law?

GG.
wee davy
There WAS a time, not so long ago, GG, when the English FA would have dealt with it, perfectly well (IMO) in house.
Unfortunately, those days are gone forever, now.

The BIG problem is also BIG TV - extra slow mo - and HI DEF.
Its so easy to lip read EXACTLY whats being said.

If one poof calls another poof, a poof, it is a criminal offence these days - NOT ungentlemanly conduct
Jim D
Every football club is mixed race. If a footballer was a racist, I'm sure the other players would have identified them. I suspect the John Terry incident was him "baiting" the opponent. I also believe the Suarez incident was the same. Unfortunately Suarez took his situation to another level when the "victim" offered the hand of friendship and he openly refused it.
Dave Grieve
QUOTE
Full article here:
http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/opini...storm_1_2111122

Do you think the John terry incident has been over-played and would have been better settled between two grown men away from glare of the media/legal system? Is public money being well-spent in pursuing the case? Is it right for the authorities to intervene to ensure that any alleged racial comments are dealt with using the full force of the law?

GG.

Excellent article, sums up for me what is wrong with the PC brigade in the UK who see racial offence in every word written or spoken against any black person, the majority living in the UK or of UK descent who jump on the 'OOH I’m not a racialist, some of the nicest people I know are not white’ crowd The same people that don’t know what the word means. Like a lot of people I don’t know what John Terry said but I am sure if it happened outside of the UK it would not get a mention in most newspapers.

I have read that Suarez called Evera a Negro! So what the word is a description not an insult. Just as a matter of interest I asked all of the “black” guys working in our warehouse if they had heard of the Suarez incident and if they knew what he had said. They had all heard of it but did not know what the insult was only that it was a racial insult. I then asked them if they new what the word Negro means, without hesitation they all replied “it means a black man” I asked them if I was to call them a Negro would they be offended, the answer was NO. When it was explained to them this is what Suarez called Evra they all laughed and said it was stupid.

Why is it the White PC brigade will bend over backwards to be seen as PC when it comes to race relations yet the same people will boast about going out for a Chinese, Indian, Thai, French, Italian meal yet at the same time expect the UK to be populated by Grey people without colour, do you think any black, Indian, Pakistani or Chinese for that matter sees himself as grey, And for that matter why would they aspire to be white
They are proud of their heritage and certainly don’t see themselves as being a big nothing.

Since I have been on the board I have received several PM’s from board members advising me on the wrongness of my way of talking about race, all it does is reinforce my belief that they have got no idea of what it is to live in a truly multicultural society and are living the brainwashed life that the liberals intended them to live.
Alex MacPhee
We seem to have created a new Mortal Sin, that of 'being offensive'. What's wrong with being offended? It happens. No bones get broken. It's not the end of the world, or even the beginning of the end.

I know someone who thinks - seriously - that calling him a jock (as he's a Scot) is racially abusive.

Some people don't need nannying, they just need a good slap.

(There, that should upset at least somebody.)

ashfield
Well I, for one, am delighted that they are pursuing Terry, and if he is found guilty, he gets exactly what he deserves. After all, if it happened on the terraces or in the street, there would be arrests. Why shouldn’t he be subject to the same law of the land?

He is being accused, like Suarez, of using someone race to abuse them. It’s not just the words but the intent behind them. Like all abuse it’s about those who want to exert power and dominance over others and it needs to be eradicated.
benny
I agree that fitba players shouldn't be exempt from the law, but I think, in this case, we have to ask how sensible the law is in the first place. You say that "It's not just the words but the intent behind them." Who decides what the intent behind them is? What will it be next - "I didn't like the way he was looking at me."?

People also use disparaging terms that have nothing to do with race and which are just as offensive to the person involved. Speccy, Fatso, Skinnymalink, ugly, etc., yet no-one seems to get particularly upset about it.

I think you're right, though, about the "power and dominance over others" bit. Those who make a big issue of trivialities like this are trying to exert power and dominance over others and make everyone conform to their petty rules and regulations.
ashfield
So when does it become racist Benny, is it just when the insults are accompanied by the monkey gestures or do they also have to be throwing bananas.
red rooster
The FA report on the Suarez - Evra incident is a fun read according to the report Dirk Kuyt called Evra a "Fu--ing Pr--K, which was OK with the FA , Suarez calls Evra a Negro and they throw the PC book at him!

What have the FA got against Negros?

Do they agree with Dirk Kuyt? (as I do)

They also report Evra saying to Ryan Giggs " he called me Black!" - has this guy looked in the mirror, whats wrong with being black?
Dave Grieve
QUOTE (red rooster @ 14th Feb 2012, 12:21pm) *
The FA report on the Suarez - Evra incident is a fun read according to the report Dirk Kuyt called Evra a "Fu--ing Pr--K, which was OK with the FA , Suarez calls Evra a Negro and they throw the PC book at him!

What have the FA got against Negros?

Do they agree with Dirk Kuyt? (as I do)

They also report Evra saying to Ryan Giggs " he called me Black!" - has this guy looked in the mirror, whats wrong with being black?

If I had a pound for every time I was called a Mulungu (white man) by local blacks I would be well off.
And the number of times i've been called a 'sweaty sock' especially playing football is uncountable, the best responce is to beat them at fitba, that really rubs it in, much better than running tae yir mammy.

I think some people need to get a life.
wee davy
QUOTE
I know someone who thinks - seriously - that calling him a jock (as he's a Scot) is racially abusive.

Alex

As I have said, many times,
1) it depends on who's calling you it
2) being called something which essentially is a ballbag' is simply offensive in itself

(PS I'm not upset btw, but slap me anyway - wouldn't have been the first time for THAT either lol laugh.gif tongue.gif )
bilbo.s
All of this is as nothing compared to being called English ,when one is Scottish ! laugh.gif
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (wee davy @ 14th Feb 2012, 01:44pm) *
1) it depends on who's calling you it
2) being called something which essentially is a ballbag' is simply offensive in itself

It can be tricky to reconcile, or legislate for at the same time, two such essentially incompatible notions, that an offence is something that is (i) independent of who commits it, and (ii) dependent on who commits it. I'm uncomfortable with the idea that some people can get a 'bye' for something like racial abuse simply on the basis of who they are, just as I'd be if someone got a 'bye' for theft or assault on the same basis. Things have reached a pretty pass when merely noticing someone's colour is itself considered racist. There's a sound adage that says extreme cases make bad law, and I think that could well be the situation here.
Rabbie
QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 14th Feb 2012, 01:08pm) *
All of this is as nothing compared to being called English ,when one is Scottish ! laugh.gif


That should carry the death sentence.
zascot
If I called a black guy yellow in U.K. is that still racial abuse, or do I have to call him black (which he is) Funny laws you have there. As Dave Grieve said here we are described by our colour or race and no offence is taken. We have black, white, coloured, indian and asians.

Police are looking for a +/- 30 year old man +/- six foot 70 kgs, walks with a limp ( colour withheld due to sensitivity of the criminals feelings). Sounds good to me.
ashfield
Zascot, calling a Black person yellow would just be silly. Describing a Black person as Black is fine and perfectly acceptable. Calling a Black person a Black (insert your own favourite curse word) is likely to be considered racial abuse.
GG
Apparently, using the 'wrong' terms can be perceived in very negative terms. Alan Hansen had to unreservedly apologise after referring to black footballers as 'coloured'. Some black football players clearly took offence. The following is from the Guardian newspaper in December 2010.

QUOTE
Alan Hansen has "unreservedly" apologised for twice using the word "coloured" to describe black footballers on Match of the Day on Wednesday evening when discussing the current John Terry and Luis Suárez racism cases.

Hansen, 56, the show's long-time pundit, said: "I unreservedly apologise for any offence caused – this was never my intention and I deeply regret the use of the word."

Employing the term had put Hansen at the centre of an online backlash after he said: "I think there's a lot of coloured players in all the major teams and there are lots of coloured players who are probably the best in the Premier League. If you look at 25 or 30 years ago it was probably in a bad way - not as bad as some of the other nations on the continent - but certainly there is always, always room for improvement."

The BBC said it has received 82 complaints over the use of the word, which caused a backlash on Twitter. The former Tottenham player Rohan Ricketts, now with Shamrock Rovers, tweeted: "Is this Alan Hansen guy taking the f****** piss?? I'm not coloured??? He is part of the problem when using that word. We are BLACK Alan! [sic]."

He added: "Alan Hansen is more coloured than a black person. But still we would not call him or another white man coloured." According to the Sun, the former England international Stan Collymore said: "Coloured? What colour would that be? Blue? Green? Orange?"


GG.
bilbo.s
We were always taught at school that there is no such colour as black - or white. Are the people in question not actually varying shades of brown? Lets call them "browns" then or "the Broons" in Scotland." Black" is simply the English for "negro", which is now unacceptable seemingly.

As for Stan Collymore taking a high moral stance, it just shows what a silly debate this is. He is most definitely not blue, green or orange - he is brown ! I rest my case.
red rooster
It really is a minefield, the person that racist Diane Abbott was tweeting with when she had her ani white rant was complaining about being called a member of the "black community".

I remember also school teachers deeming the term Blackboard to be racist, even though it was actually a board and it was coloured (oh no that C word) black!

Using this logic colouring books is also racist and should be called "books in which persons can shade using pencils/crayons or other such media of varying hues"

How about the sexist name MANchester united, surely that should be PERSONchester united.

Anybody know where I can get a PC/English dictionary!
zascot
It`s a queer(no sexual persuasion/connotation intended) old world. In South Africa we have colourds and if you called them black they would take offence, they are proud to be coloured. It`s as bad as calling a zulu a xhosa as they are two different tribes, or calling a Scot English biggrin.gif . My wife is English so I`m doing my bit to improving the status of the deprived.
Dave Grieve
QUOTE (ashfield @ 15th Feb 2012, 09:21am) *
Zascot, calling a Black person yellow would just be silly. Describing a Black person as Black is fine and perfectly acceptable. Calling a Black person a Black (insert your own favourite curse word) is likely to be considered racial abuse.

Is there any evidence that Saurez used any other word than Negro when talking to Evra?

Did he put anything before Negro?

Did he add anything after Negro?

What I read at the time was that they both seemed to be in dispute about the number of times the word was used.

Have to agree with Zascot calling a coloured here black would be asking for physical trouble, and as for being called English, the Afrikaaners for a long time could not tell the difference between Scots and English and like Zascot almost every day I would be called a Blikksem se Engelsman.

I never ran greetin to my Mammy

As I said earlier some people need to get a life
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (red rooster @ 15th Feb 2012, 10:09am) *
Using this logic colouring books is also racist and should be called "books in which persons can shade using pencils/crayons or other such media of varying hues"

I propose we refer to everyone by their Pantone colour number. Problem solved.


TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 14th Feb 2012, 01:08pm) *
All of this is as nothing compared to being called English ,when one is Scottish ! laugh.gif

laugh.gif I sometimes wish that I was easily offended just so I could take offence at that. laugh.gif
TeeHeeHee
I remember when being referred to as White Trash by my mate; the Black Swan, that I used to reply, " Nearly right on both ocassions, Van". laugh.gif
His other nickname was Rastacat. Coolest guy I knew. His best mate; a big guy called Steve, was almost Albino. When those two appeared on the scene ... biggrin.gif
Mind you, they were both "coloured" belts in Karate so insults, offence or abuse was usually left at the door. tongue.gif
ashfield
QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 15th Feb 2012, 02:03pm) *
Is there any evidence that Saurez used any other word than Negro when talking to Evra?

Did he put anything before Negro?

Did he add anything after Negro?

Extracts from the FA report

"The FA's case, in short, was as follows. In the goalmouth, Mr Evra and Mr Suarez spoke to each other in Spanish. Mr Evra asked Mr Suarez why he had kicked him, referring to the foul five minutes previously. Mr Suarez replied "Porque tu eres negro", meaning "Because you are black". Mr Evra then said to Mr Suarez “say it to me again, I’m going to punch you”. Mr Suarez replied "No hablo con los negros", meaning "I don't speak to blacks". Mr Evra continued by saying that he now thought he was going to punch Mr Suarez. Mr Suarez replied "Dale, negro, negro, negro", which meant "okay, blackie, blackie, blackie".

As Mr Suarez said this, he reached out to touch Mr Evra's arm, gesturing at his skin.

On 11 November, the FA instructed two experts, Dr Scorer and Professor Wade. The experts were instructed to prepare a written report on the linguistic and cultural interpretations of the words "negro" and "negros" in Rioplatense Spanish.

The Spanish language experts told us that if Mr Suarez said the things alleged, they would be considered racially offensive in Uruguay and other regions of Latin America"
red rooster
QUOTE
"The FA's case, in short, was as follows. In the goalmouth, Mr Evra and Mr Suarez spoke to each other in Spanish. Mr Evra asked Mr Suarez why he had kicked him, referring to the foul five minutes previously. Mr Suarez replied "Porque tu eres negro", meaning "Because you are black". Mr Evra then said to Mr Suarez “say it to me again, I’m going to punch you”. Mr Suarez replied "No hablo con los negros", meaning "I don't speak to blacks". Mr Evra continued by saying that he now thought he was going to punch Mr Suarez. Mr Suarez replied "Dale, negro, negro, negro", which meant "okay, blackie, blackie, blackie".

That's Evra's version of the conversation, nobody heard that conversation except the 2 players involved This was Suarez version
QUOTE
Mr Suarez's evidence was that Mr Evra replied to the comment "it was just a normal foul" by saying "Ok, you kicked me, I'm going to kick you". Mr Suarez said in his witness statement that his response was "Le dije que se callara e hice un gesto breve con mi mano izquierda parecido a la mocion de un "pato cuando hace cuac" para indicarle que hablaba
mucho y deberia callarse", which was translated as "I told him to shut up and made a brief gesture with my left hand like a "quacking" motion as if to say he was talking too much and should be quiet".

and Suarez version of the skin pinching
QUOTE
"Evra did not back off and Dirk Kuyt was approaching us to stand between us. At this point I touched PE's left arm in a pinching type movement. This all happened very quickly. I was trying to defuse the situation and was trying to intimate to Evra that he was not untouchable by reference to his question about the foul. Under no circumstances was this action intended to be offensive and most certainly not racially offensive. It was not in any way a reference to the colour of PE's skin.”

The fact that Evra later lied to Fergie should have made Evra's version lacking in credability and the case should have been thrown out.

"Sir Alex said that as he was speaking to David De Gea, Mr Evra approached him. He said "Boss, Suarez called me a n****r." It was obvious to Sir Alex that Mr Evra was upset and angry. Sir Alex was shocked and asked Mr Evra what he wanted to do about it. Sir Alex
told him that he should report it to the referee and asked Mr Evra if he wanted to do that. Mr Evra said that he did."

Suarez did say that he had called Evra negro in a later incident in response to Evra calling him South American.

It is clear to me in reading the report that Evra was playing the race card, he sould face a charge for his behavior after the final whistle in last weekend's match , he was clearly trying to provoke the Liverpool fans and players.

He should also have been red carded for the lunge at Suarez which resulted in Ferdinand being lucky to avoid serious injury when he got in the way.

All in all I agree with Dirk Kuyt's opinion of Evra.
Dave Grieve
Seems we now have two versions of the incident.

First of all Ashfields one sided version and then Red Roosters more comprehensive summing up.

The truth is probably inbetween but on balance of probability Saurez's version is more believable simply because with the racial mix in the majority of premeir league teams if Saurez was prone to making racial insults in the heat of a game he would have been exposed long before that match.

Another example of playing the race card and being believed simply because nobody wants to be branded as being non PC.
tombro
Funny, I thought the game was played in England !

Perhaps both Mr Suarez and Mr Evra, if they cannot handle the things that happen to them while playing in England, need to return to their countries of origin.

But perhaps not, for in those countries such comments would be considered along he lines of two coloured gentlemen sharing a joke with each other.

It's so funny how things can be perceived in countries where the fanatical minority have the upper hand !

Tombro
tombro
Funny, I thought the game was played in England !

Perhaps both Mr Suarez and Mr Evra, if they cannot handle the things that happen to them while playing in England, need to return to their countries of origin.

But perhaps not, for in those countries such comments would be considered along he lines of two coloured gentlemen sharing a joke with each other.

It's so funny how things can be perceived in countries where the fanatical minority have the upper hand !

Tombro

Sorry Mods, please delete this double post !

Tombro wub.gif
ashfield
Dave, firstly I was not offering you a one sided version as you imply. You asked a question in your previous post and I was trying to give you some clarifiacation about what was said. I am not attempting to prove or disprove anything, the FA did that and the outcome is well known. If you want the real version of the process, perhaps you can read the full 160 pages produced by the FA which is easily accessed on their website.

There is more on there about the significance of evidence from other players, TV pictures, expert witnesses and what was said by the players at the time and later. I believe it's always good to keep an open mind about things until you know the facts.
GG
A very interesting debate. Just a quick post to all to say let's not make things personal, please. We're discussing opinions and interpretations of a fairly sensitive subject, and it's okay to disagree and offer opposing opinions. That's the nature of a discussion. The important thing is not to raise the 'emotional' stakes and then risk falling out! smile.gif

GG.
zascot
160 pages because someone used a five letter word(negro) no wonder football teams are in trouble.
ashfield
QUOTE (GG @ 16th Feb 2012, 09:25am) *
A very interesting debate. Just a quick post to all to say let's not make things personal, please. We're discussing opinions and interpretations of a fairly sensitive subject, and it's okay to disagree and offer opposing opinions. That's the nature of a discussion. The important thing is not to raise the 'emotional' stakes and then risk falling out! smile.gif

GG.

Must say I thought the debate here was pretty tame by previous standards, in any case this will be my last contribution on this thread.
Scotsman
Have enjoyed reading through the posts. smile.gif

The one thing that strikes me is when I think back to the time when I was a young man about the ages of these footballers and I can honestly say that it would seem madness for the police to get involved in a bit of name calling between two grown men. If there was an issue then they had it out there and then and that was it. I played for a time at amateur level and if it was in a football match then there would be a frank exchange after the match once the referee was out of site. I just cannot believe that we live in a world where grown men run to the police when someone calls them a name!!
zascot
Well said Scotsman. In our day they would have been called "spoilt Bast****"
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