Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Iraq War – Over!
Glasgow Boards/Forums > GG Discussions > Other Discussions
GG
QUOTE
The US flag is to be lowered in Baghdad, formally marking the end of US military operations in Iraq after nearly nine years of war.

Most of the 5,500 remaining soldiers have now left Iraq, with security in the hands of the Iraqi authorities.

President Barack Obama, who came to office pledging to bring troops home, said the US left behind a "sovereign, stable and self-reliant Iraq".

Some 4,500 US soldiers and more than 100,000 Iraqis have died in the war.

It has cost the US some $1tr. ...

The total number of UK troops killed in operations in Iraq has reached 179 after a soldier died from a gunshot wound in Basra on 12 February 2009.

US to lower flag to end Iraq war
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16192105

Was it worth it?

GG.
Dave Grieve
Depends on your point of view GG.
I am sure the majority of people in the world would say no, but for the greedy politicians that saw it as an opportunity to grab some more 'Loot' by lying to the public most Definitely
Melody
How true Dave. I feel nothing except for the sickening futility of it all.
jimmyd
My feelings exactly Melody, another waste of young lives to satisfy the money merchants. I would love to know , how much richer Bush , and his cohorts are today... I have cried many a tear watching funerals for the young ones who died. So bloody sad !!!!
zascot
The unfortunate thing is that it will not be the last time some president or leader does it for political and mostly financial gain.
Rabbie
Was it worth it?

Certainly not, we had no need to invade Iraq.

Let Middle Eastern countries wage thier trivial tribal skimishes, this is thier way, they will eventually kiss and make up over a goat grab. Stopping short of some Mad Mullah getting thier greasy mitts a live nook they dont need any intervention.

The Iraq escapade cost many lives, many of our finest and thier families have had thier lives ruined, not to mention many innocent civvies. The true cost of this, measured in human misery, will run for many generations.

This was Yank induced 21st Century wild west gunslinging mentality at the behest of Bawbag Bush. It's high time the USA put thier diminishing resources into peaceful outer space exploration / alternative energy research instead of invasive fossil fuel "exploration" in other Sovereign Counties.

Next excursion!? "Project I - ran!"

Watch this space... <O . O>
Scotsman
So many lives lost for nothing. And even if there was a need to remove Hussein then its own people could have done this in time just like what happened in Libya with Gadaffi.

The poor on all sides fought and died fighting a war which designed to benefit a few of the rich.... how can this ever be worth it??
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (Rabbie @ 15th Dec 2011, 10:44am) *
Project I-ran

Their already gearing up for this one.
Heather
No it was not worth it, especially when you remember the young soldiers who were killed there.

I wish they would pull the troops out of Afghanistan as well.
I have been in tears many a time watching the TV news when their coffins are brought home.
wee davy
I sympathise with many of the sentiments expressed on here, with regards the often futile and tragic consequences of war.
Where I disagree (most strongly) is where people say our troops lives are/have been 'wasted'.

It is disrespectful to ALL who have given their lives in the call of duty to this and other countries.

We really are a fickle lot.

I prefer to celebrate the fact, our lads (at least for the foreseeable) will not have to shed another drop of blood, for that particular part of the world.

Whether we like it, or not - we STILL have our young people facing danger on a daily basis. Let us not forget they always deserve and need our unconditional support. We have forces for sadly, good reason - to prevent others from imposing their will upon a free society.

It is my hope that next Christmas, we might be celebrating even more good news.
(No prizes for guessing what that might be!)

My undying respect to those troops who continue to serve so selflessly.

wee davy
bilbo.s
I consider it preposterous of you to suggest that anyone´s disapproval of pointless wars in any way shows disrespect for the unfortunates who have paid the price for the folly or avarice of politicians.

To imply that anger and sorrow regarding the waste of human lives somehow shows a lack of support for the victims, actual and potential, is a piece of warped logic worthy of the worst spin-doctors.

Do you seriously believe that nobody should criticise a military action ever ?

If such an action does not result in an improvement on the situation causing it, then any lives lost have indeed been sadly wasted.
TeeHeeHee
I must agree there Billbo.
The Taliban will continue to dominate, the poppy harvest will flourish, corruption will not diminish and the politicians will still say "Didn't we do well".
The sacrifice will have been for nothing.
wellfield
OVER!!!......There's 44,000 Gi's still in waiting at the Kuwait border (they will be there forever) and 17,000 personel (1/2 of them contracted bodyguards to guard the other half) at the newly built (108 acres) American Embassy 18 miles from the border of Iran...where there's OIL there are westerners!!!....OVER!!!....chuckle....
wee davy
bilbo

We will have to agree to disagree.

Person's lives, who die and are maimed in the course of their duty, have NOT, and never will be, wasted. I really do not care if you respect my opinion on this, but I DO object to you turning the whole thing into some kind of political football.

We could all debate until hell freezes over, whether or not the politics is/was justified.

Try telling (to their faces) the loved ones of those who are directly affected, their little Brenda or Sam's life has been a waste. There are many, who, despite their grief, are RIGHTFULLY proud of their son/daughter/mother/father/cousin/brother/sister, friend.
Regardless of the 'reason', they were called upon.

I know the reaction you would get from me.

THEE, Yes, I DO believe sometimes the ultimate sacrifice has to be made. I'm not afraid to say it.

The IRAQ war is over (to all intents and purposes) - now for the HARD part - keeping the peace.
Who you gonna call, for that one? Politicians? Ghostbusters?
bilbo.s
I agree with your first line and that´s it.

I am not turning the issue into a political football, as you say. I am merely stating that, if a conflict resolves nothing, then everything, including the human loss, was a waste.

I cannot see any possible argument against this, but perhaps your problem is that you consider the Afghan war or even World War I to be successes. I think few would agree with you, especially
the bereaved.
wee davy
If we consider the human 'expenditure' to be just another resource, then I might well be agreeing with you. My trouble is do we not fall into the same trap as the officers/politicians, when we refer to them in such terms?

As to successes - I was walking home from school one day, when a wee 'team' decided to catch me off guard, in virtually my ain backyard.
You know the thing - they circle you - you have no choice but to fight their bestest 'nutter' - if it hadn't been for me remembering there was a very loose railing behind me - I would've been mince.
However - one Olympic style throw later, it was surprising how bereft of a baying crowd there was! laugh.gif

Of course, I've always had a nagging wee 'what if' at the back of my mind about that one - however Q. just WHO's life would have been 'wasted'?
(You'll probably say both - but it wasn't where I was standing from lol)

Have a good day wink.gif
TeeHeeHee
Put it this way Davy, had it been a case of going into Iraq to "save the world" (quote/unquote) and had we "won the war" (ditto on the quotes) then any lives or limbs lost might have been classed as a price worth paying. But a born again Christian and his born again Catholic buddy took us into Iraq on a bag of lies and in the end it was all for nothing. We didn't win a war, we didn't secure peace in our time and when we pull out it'll be like coitus interruptus; a no result.
So the lives lost were wasted.
Same with Afghanistan; we'll pull out again and nothing will have changed as a reult of the lives we sacrificed there.
But there are lessons to be learned in preparation for the next one; as far as I'm concerned, and we can save trillions of $$$s, lots of lives (on our side) and a whole lot of time.
Instead of our leaders lying to us, all they have to say is that God came to them in a dream and said they have to rain down fire and brimstone on Iran just as He did with the twin cities of Sodom and Gomorrha.
Who's going to say, "No He didn't."?
A bunch of Athiests?
QUOTE
Cameron calls on the Church to defend 'values and moral code' of the Bible


God has been known to appear to people in dreams before and if it can neither be proved that He exists or not who can say, "Our leaders are lying"? Who can prove that God didn't really visit them in a dream?
So nuke Iran and save us all a lot of expense and bother. (What's the sense in being a Superpower if you can't flex your muscle?) Doesn't have to be a big nuke, just big enough to take out Iran's possibility/probabillity of producing WMDs ... and show them who's boss man around here. And if they retaliate with suicide bombers, take out Teheran.
All that costs is a couple of guided missiles directed from the comfort of a desk in Virginia and if they're a 100 meters off target, who's counting.
Then we can say, "We won", and at no cost of lives to us and that will have been worth it..
Of course, you might not be blamed for thinking that this is all tongue in cheek. tongue.gif
And you might even be right ... maybe. cool.gif
wee davy
I would agree with you (not that it makes a blind bit of difference) that on reflection, Iraq was a complete f**k up. That doesn't justify a single life as being considered 'wasted'.
It should be disrespectul to anyone whover has had to pull a uniform on - (even MATELOTS! lol)

Some may feel I am being pedantic about this, but I happen to believe our military (but for very exceptional circumstance) are the finest in the world - and any young person who signs up on the dotted line, whether they have to give up their most precious posession, or not - should do so confidently, in the knowledge they give to their country - their lives.
The way the media hysteria reports every detail, makes me only admire a youngster even more - who puts themself in harms way.
We have the dubious advantage, of almost knowing in advance, whether or not a campaign will be successful however it is still not an exact science

Politicians will continue to get it wrong - the troops will continue to do their job, under very difficult circumstances - and Afghanistan will not be solved by ignoring the problem in Pakistan.

Personally? I would also put my money on Iran being next.
I really hope I'm wrong.

David Cameron was right to have a wee 'dig' at the Clergy/Christianity in that weve all stood back for far too long allowing anybody and everybody (minorities) to virtually dictate their belief, and eat away at the foundation of UK society.

But he was saying (I believe) we ALL could do with looking at ourselves.
Is it enough to just sit back?
Is it enough to do nothing?
Whilst all around you, youngsters are not adequately supported (yet they are old enough to die).

Anyway,... I've been on my soapbox far too long - I'm going to get those CHRISTMAS presents wrapped - for they won't wrap themselves - believe me, I KNOW Tomi - I've tried lol
Alex MacPhee
Whatever one may think about the merits or demerits of the war in Iraq, the notion that it was for "loot" or "oil" doesn't stand scrutiny.
GG
An interesting article from the Financial Tinmes last week looking at how the combatant companies are losing out on multi-billion dollar reconstruction contracts:

QUOTE
Spoils of Iraq war evade US and UK

After almost nine years, $1tn spent and 4,487 American and 179 British lives lost, the US is withdrawing from Iraq, leaving the country’s vast economic spoils to nations that neither supported nor participated in the US-led invasion that toppled Saddam Hussein.

Turkey, Iran, China, South Korea and Arab states have already invested billions in Iraq, far outpacing their US and UK counterparts in every non-oil sector from transport and telecoms to housing and construction.

American and British firms won early lucrative contracts in oil and gas, including ExxonMobil and Royal Dutch Shell’s bid to develop Iraq’s giant West Qurna oilfield. Beyond energy, however, investment is modest and Iraqi officials have expressed disappointment in private sector interest from the two countries that ended a dictatorship and cracked open its free market. ...

Full story here:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bc8485de-271e-11...l#axzz1gq9rlfvt

GG.
Tommy Kennedy
QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 17th Dec 2011, 08:16pm) *
Whatever one may think about the merits or demerits of the war in Iraq, the notion that it was for "loot" or "oil" doesn't stand scrutiny.

It Was!
My very first post when U.S/U.K attacked Iraq because they had WMD was headed:
'Liars, liars, pants on fire'
They would NOT have attacked Iraq if it did have WMDS - didn't even have a decent army

It was one phony Christain- BUSH -attempts to gloryify himself, enrich himnself and his friends. It wasn't only the oil they wanted but to privatise the utilites and give them to U.S. companies.

Then one fanatical Christian - Blair-, Just as dangerous as Muslim fanatics - doing it for his God

Both mass murderers of soldiers and civilians
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (Tommy Kennedy @ 19th Dec 2011, 05:41pm) *
They would NOT have attacked Iraq if it did have WMDS

Saddam took steps to make it look as if he had weapons of mass destruction, which in any case he'd used in the past. What would have inhibited the invasion would have been Saddam's compliance with UNSC resolutions, which he repeatedly refused to do. Iraq also had form, in the shape of a clandestine nuclear weapons facility which Saddam had been able to conceal right under the nose of the affably inept Hans Blix, a decent man trying to do the right thing but having the wool pulled right down over his eyes.

QUOTE
didn't even have a decent army

This is not the case. Prior to the Iraq invasion, Saddam had one of the largest armies in the world. Iraq had the fourth largest military on the planet, for a country that was fortieth by size. At the time of Saddam's attack on Kuwait, Iraq's army was ten times the size of the British army, in a country with only half the British population.

QUOTE
It wasn't only the oil they wanted but to privatise the utilites and give them to U.S. companies.

This is not true. The US has no control over Iraqi oil, and never had. That's always been the remit of the Iraqi Oil Ministry.

Even on simple economic terms, the notion that the war was about 'getting the oil' is absurd. The cost of the war to the US treasury exceeded the entire output of Iraqi oil, by a huge margin. If the US had wanted Iraq's oil, it would have been cheaper to buy the damn stuff on the market. The US, however, gets the largest supply of its oil from Canada, followed by Saudi Arabia. Iraq has never been a major supplier to the US (even at full production, Iraq's production capability is small, despite the large reserves) ; the US gets three times as much of its oil from Venezuela as it does from Iraq. It gets more from Mexico. Even the UK exports almost as much oil to the US as Iraq ever did. A trillion dollar enterprise to secure a marginal interest of supply that is less than the US even gets from Nigeria is nuts.

QUOTE
doing it for his God

Perhaps you can show where, in making the case for the Iraq war, either inside parliament or outside, Blair said anything resembling this in the slightest.

(PS: I hope you're recovering well.)
bilbo.s
"Perhaps you can show where, in making the case for the Iraq war, either inside parliament or outside, Blair said anything resembling this in the slightest. " Quoth Eck.

C´mon Eck ! Surely you can do better than that.

Perhaps you can show where Tony Blair ever said anything sincere, revealing his true motives. rolleyes.gif
Rab-oldname
Bliar - '"I can't stand politicians who wear God on their sleeves."
7 April 1996, Daily Telegraph
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 19th Dec 2011, 08:03pm) *
C´mon Eck ! Surely you can do better than that.

I'm not sure what sort of response you were expecting. When someone says a politician embarked on a course of "mass murder" under the banner of religious zealotry, I think asking for some demonstration of this is a fair question. Otherwise, what is there to separate such a claim from mere hyperbolic fiction?

Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (Rab @ 19th Dec 2011, 10:54pm) *
Bliar - '"I can't stand politicians who wear God on their sleeves."
7 April 1996, Daily Telegraph

Since Tony Blair did not formally acknowledge his religious convictions until after his term as Prime Minister was over, he can hardly be said to have worn God on his own sleeve ; particularly since he was criticised by the Pope and other church leaders for ignoring their advice in the matter of the war in Iraq.
red rooster
QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 20th Dec 2011, 12:45am) *
Since Tony Blair did not formally acknowledge his religious convictions until after his term as Prime Minister was over, he can hardly be said to have worn God on his own sleeve ; particularly since he was criticised by the Pope and other church leaders for ignoring their advice in the matter of the war in Iraq.

Agree 100% with that Alex, you also have to look at Alaistair Campbell's "we don't do God" statement, the introduction of Sharia Courts to the UK, the fact that the ex American PM is now receiving "consultancy' fees from middle east countries, to realise that the idea of him waging some sort of islamic fundamentalist type religious war is nonsense.

An interesting article in the Guardian re Blairs finances, gives me the impression that Money is his God. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/de...-blair-finances

The actual reasons for the Iraq War Baffles me, why would Bush go to war with the enemy of Americas biggest enemy (Iran)?

The "oil grab" theory as you have demonstrated does not stand up to scrutiny, although the fact that the oil prices rose from around 35 to touching 150 dollars a barrel, could have benefited Bush personally.

The fact that Sadaam admitted before his hanging that Iran were his main concern and he was actively encouraging the notion that he had WMD's, "to scare them off" gives creedence to what you said about WMD's.

It would be interesting to know what the real reason is and it would probably be very surprising, but will we ever get to know?

My biggest worry is that the nuclear cat is well and truely out the bad and to quote Barry McGuire - "we're on the eve of destruction"




QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 20th Dec 2011, 12:45am) *
Since Tony Blair did not formally acknowledge his religious convictions until after his term as Prime Minister was over, he can hardly be said to have worn God on his own sleeve ; particularly since he was criticised by the Pope and other church leaders for ignoring their advice in the matter of the war in Iraq.

Agree 100% with that Alex, you also have to look at Alaistair Campbell's "we don't do God" statement, the introduction of Sharia Courts to the UK, the fact that the ex American PM is now receiving "consultancy' fees from middle east countries, to realise that the idea of him waging some sort of islamic fundamentalist type religious war is nonsense.

An interesting article in the Guardian re Blairs finances, gives me the impression that Money is his God. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/de...-blair-finances

The actual reasons for the Iraq War Baffles me, why would Bush go to war with the enemy of Americas biggest enemy (Iran)?

The "oil grab" theory as you have demonstrated does not stand up to scrutiny, although the fact that the oil prices rose from around 35 to touching 150 dollars a barrel, could have benefited Bush personally.

The fact that Sadaam admitted before his hanging that Iran were his main concern and he was actively encouraging the notion that he had WMD's, "to scare them off" gives creedence to what you said about WMD's.

It would be interesting to know what the real reason is and it would probably be very surprising, but will we ever get to know?

My biggest worry is that the nuclear cat is well and truely out the bad and to quote Barry McGuire - "we're on the eve of destruction"


red rooster
Don't know why post duplicated and Bad should read bag,in the last para, freudian slip?
Tommy Kennedy
(PS: I hope you're recovering well.) says Alex.

I'm doing fine, thanks Alex - pulling the dolly birds again tongue.gif





Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (Tommy Kennedy @ 21st Dec 2011, 11:43pm) *
I'm doing fine, thanks Alex - pulling the dolly birds again

Some people have all the luck. The last dolly I pulled was a clothes peg.
Tommy Kennedy
Iraq - 65 people killed there to-day! What was it Obama said ''We leave behind a more secure and stable Iraq' unsure.gif
red rooster
That ranks up there with "Peace in our time" Tommy could't believe my ears when I heard Obama say it, the Republicans will go tae toon wi' that yin.
wellfield
Remember the Texas dim-wit ( Aye' thats him,still in hiding) "Mission Accomplished"...Aye'..that'll be right!
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (Tommy Kennedy @ 23rd Dec 2011, 12:31am) *
... What was it Obama said ''We leave behind a more secure and stable Iraq' unsure.gif

That was a misquote Tommy. He said, " ... and we leave behind a more secure stable in Iraq" rolleyes.gif
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (Rabbie @ 15th Dec 2011, 10:44am) *
Next excursion!? "Project I - ran!"

Watch this space... <O . O>


Just heard on the news half an hour ago on German radio, the USA have said that their intelligence now have proof that it was IRAN who financed the training for the 9/11 attack.

Good job they found that out now rather when when the troops were stretched to the limit in Iraq and Afghanistan, eh?
Thank God the boys got Christmas in, eh? rolleyes.gif
Rab-oldname
QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 20th Dec 2011, 01:45am) *
Since Tony Blair did not formally acknowledge his religious convictions until after his term as Prime Minister was over, he can hardly be said to have worn God on his own sleeve ; particularly since he was criticised by the Pope and other church leaders for ignoring their advice in the matter of the war in Iraq.



My point was that Bliar could not wait to become the best of mates with a politician who did just that!"
ashfield
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 24th Dec 2011, 11:51am) *
... and we leave behind a more secure stable in Iraq" rolleyes.gif


and we leave behind a door,........ see your table, .....in back huh.gif wacko.gif
Rabbie
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 27th Dec 2011, 02:39pm) *
Just heard on the news half an hour ago on German radio, the USA have said that their intelligence now have proof that it was IRAN who financed the training for the 9/11 attack.

Good job they found that out now rather when when the troops were stretched to the limit in Iraq and Afghanistan, eh?
Thank God the boys got Christmas in, eh? rolleyes.gif



Aye, perfect timing albiet rather dubious. USA military intelligence, worthy of a subplot in a Disney Fantasy.

I would not be very surprised that in the name of peace and world stability that those 'ere troops maybe be spending next Xmas Bombing the crepe out of Iran's Blossoming Nuclear Infrastruture.

We come in peace.. Shoot to kill!
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (Rab @ 27th Dec 2011, 09:00pm) *
My point was that Bliar could not wait to become the best of mates with a politician who did just that!"

Unfortunately even my talents don't extend to mind-reading. You mentioned no friend or "best mate", and I'm afraid I can only comment on the points you actually express, not the ones you mean but don't say.
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 27th Dec 2011, 11:20pm) *
Unfortunately even my talents don't extend to mind-reading ...

Don't let me down, Alex. laugh.gif
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 28th Dec 2011, 12:24am) *
Don't let me down, Alex.

I just knew you were going to say that.


Rabbie
Who's doing the mind reading now.. biggrin.gif laugh.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.