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Tommy Kennedy
Fog in the Channel Europe Isolated! – Correction ,U.K. isolated!
In the post war years the U.K. made wasted attempts to hang on to its remnants of ‘Empire’; now the ‘Little Englander Tories’ believe, in their arrogance, they can hang on to their influence in the world.
The reason Dodgy Dave gives to refusing to go along with the E.U’s proposals is to protect the City of London Financial services’(Meaning of course Tory financial services) – Wrong; The markets will go/support where money/growth IS.- Remember Tory supporting companies ‘Outsourced ‘ much of our manufacturing where they could make most profits. What little manufacturing we have in U.K is owned by foreign companies; they won’t be happy if they can’t export to other Euro nations.
Cameron is right and the other 26 members of E.U. are wrong. unsure.gif
There is, has been, much wrong with the E.U. Establishment, as there is in all States Establishment.
Major problem of course was at the very beginning the E.U. did not make ‘Rules of membership’ stricter.
Forgotten of course was the main ideal of the E.U. – to avoid Euro States going to war. Forgotten also is that in yesteryear weak/poor nations were ignored/exploited by more powerful nations – we even had that within the U.K just decades ago; England exploiting Scotland/Ireland-
Euro governments realised that the best prospects for prosperity for their own States was that if ALL Euro nations prospered ,with help from each other; more so with the rise in Asian economic power.
As I’ve posted before it is a natural evolution for States to unite; again in yesteryear this was done by terrorism/war – Nations created, not born. The E.U. WAS born, but sadly a very difficult birth.
A great irony of the E.U. is that 2 bitter enemies of the past; Germany/France are now close allies. A greater irony is that they were bitter enemies’ of Britain.
Germany/France will ‘Rule Britannia’
Sadly, in the not too distance future, Britain will go begging other Euro countries to trade with them, as Cameron has in Asia /Africa – countries they had similar contempt for.
TeeHeeHee
Good post Tommy. I couldn't believe the arrogance of Cameron thinking he can still influence the EU from outside the gates. The body language of the other members said it all.
bilbo.s
Sadly there are many people in UK who will see this creep as a hero, defending their rights. We are now a minority of one out of 27, but hey, we´ve stood alone before.
Look how we licked the Germans without any help haha ! mad.gif
Heather
Yes and look how France thanks us for saving them from the Germans. mad.gif

I certainly don't want ruled by Euro, or should I say by Germany & France as they seem to be the one's who are calling the shots.
bilbo.s
That´s the stuff, Heather ! You stick with the English ! laugh.gif
wee davy
Far be it from ME to stand in Dodgy Dave's corner - I quite frankly didn't think he was left with any alternative. Behaviour of major players in Europe - France & Germany - has been quite pathetic, for MONTHS now.

In all the summits, meetings, late night dinners (this one REALLY makes me LMAO!), not ONCE have they actually done ANYTHING concrete, to fix a seriously broken, possibly irrepairable, Eurozone.

Not only do they want to perpetuate the indecision, and incompetance, but they want the UK to go down the same lavvy pan, with them. excuse me??

Europe WILL be a Federal State one day - but the day for that will now just have to wait. Financially, Economically, nothing has really changed from last weekend, to this. Did the markets go into meltdown again? NO Did a completely skint Greece, get the heave, when we all know they criminally entered the EU? NO Did the European Bank do something positive to help their own?? NO

(Good topic btw Tommy wink.gif )
bilbo.s
Davy,

Perhaps you can move out of your dodgy namesake´s corner and into the DUNCE¨S corner, if you think that his action will benefit the UK in any way. His SOLE reason for his decision was to protect the CITY from being regulated . Do you REALLY believe he has succeeded ?

Sorry about the arbitrary shouty words - don´t know where I pick up these bad habits ! tongue.gif
wee davy
I think my point was, there ARE no WINNERS.

Cameron was forced into the corner - because those with REAL clout in the EU, have always wanted to exercise control over the UK (GLOBAL BTW) Financial Services.

I don't blame them - because its EXACTLY what I would do, faced with the very real possibility of economic ruin.

I think you've picked up a very useful 'bad habit' there bilbo tongue.gif

(Emphasis is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to convey, WITHOUT it! LOL)
Mathieson
You talk a lot of sense wee davy, as it's hard to see who are winners and losers at this point. There is still a lot of problems to be solved. The EU, and the Eurozone, is far from out of the mire and I predict it will get even worse, and there will be many a fall-out among the member countries as all - especially Germany and France - are primarily out to protect their own interests above all else. It seems though that only Cameron is being criticised for doing the same. Too many member countries are basket cases and will drag the rest down. To be honest, I still don't know if Cameron did the right thing but he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't but at least he stated beforehand what he would do under certain circumstances and stuck to his guns. Meanwhile Milliband sits on the sidelines and is unable to tell us what he would have done in the situation.

And yes, good topic, pity the OP had to spoil it somewhat with his usual disjointed delivery of his own hackneyed prejudices.
bilbo.s
And yes, good topic, pity the OP had to spoil it somewhat with his usual disjointed delivery of his own hackneyed prejudices.


Perhaps your slip ( or are those Union Jack underpants?) is also showing. rolleyes.gif
Tommy Kennedy
It is my generation of oldies who were brainwashed from school age against foreigners; that 'we' were a superior people! Thankfully we are all dying off!
The middle age, and young generation are travelling the world. Not for them the 'blind Patriotisim' of past generations.

The U.K. believed, in the post war years it would still be the major power in Europe, sticks in the 'Little Englanders' craw that they are NOT. It also saw America as being their major ally; that will change from the American side, who's world power is on the wane - they will want the strong Euro countires as major allies.

Britain WAS isolated from our Euro neighbors pre-WW2; it could afford to be then when it had the Dominions/colonies to dominate and had 'Captive trade' customers.

Cameron has succeded in creating 'Anti-British' feelings in Europe - miind a bright side he's given joy to those with blind patriotism.

Mind all coud be saved if we send our 'Good will Ambassadors' - William/Kate/ Harry on a tour of Europe tongue.gif
TeeHeeHee
Germany and France are calling the shots because Germany and France are the main financiers of the EU. Had Britain done more from the begining to show itself as a serious partner instead of one who is only in it for the goodies then we'd be talkin' of Germany France and Britain calling the shots.
Mind you. the Tories were always against Unions; with the exception of the Union of the Crowns where they would be the only winners. rolleyes.gif
tamhickey
I'm not a fan of the EU, as there is far too much beaureaucratic waste that goes on there. Who knows who their MEP is? I don't, without resorting to google. The Common Agricultural Policy is an utter disgrace whereby farmers are told not to grow anything and be in line for a windfall from all us European taxpayers. Whilst the rest of the world starves, there are butter mountains and wine lakes; a scandal. That said, David Cameron has pandered to his party and put them and ultimately himself above what's best for Britain. 60% of our trade is or was amongst EU nations so he decides to imperil thousands of jobs just to save face to the right wing of his party? What kind of leadership is that? Britain is no longer an Island, it needs to part of a strong Europe instead of which he has isolated us from Europe and you can bet our trading partners will not be impressed.
Nick Clegg is apparently fuming at this charade and I for one don't blame him.
Mathieson
Cameron may well be pandering to his party, but then there are also many of us from outside his party who understand and support his stance in this situation. Don't they have a right to be heard? In fact, you yourself say..

"there is far too much beaureaucratic waste that goes on there. Who knows who their MEP is? I don't, without resorting to google. The Common Agricultural Policy is an utter disgrace whereby farmers are told not to grow anything and be in line for a windfall from all us European taxpayers. Whilst the rest of the world starves, there are butter mountains and wine lakes; a scandal.

Who exactly is to blame for all that, and why is it inevitably getting worse year on year, and what exactly have decades of British input been able to achieve in diminishing it to any significant extent? I would suggest that the very bureaucrats responsible largely originate from, and "call the shots" from, within France and Germany. So why should Cameron, and the rest of us, show any sort of faith in what their leaders propose now?

Maybe Cameron just agrees with you (and me) and sees this as the opportunity to send out the message that we won't pander any longer to the bureaucracy-gone-mad policy that insists in throwing good billions after bad billions of member nations' money down the drain.
This sticking-plaster "solution" is never going to sort the eurozone crisis and/or the EU crisis.
GG
An interesting article in the Financial Times today which concludes that the UK's withdrawal from Europe could help Alex Salmond in his quest to hasten Scotland's withdrawal from the United Kingdom:

QUOTE
... Much of the Conservative party now speaks the language of English nationalism – driven to fury by Europe and increasingly driven out by the voters from Britain’s Celtic fringes. Mr Cameron’s party has only one MP in Scotland and just a handful in Wales.

This suits no one more than Alex Salmond. As Tory MPs demand a referendum on Europe, the Scottish National party leader promises one on Scottish independence.

Mr Salmond has an unchallenged grip on Scottish politics. Scotland’s first minister dominates the Edinburgh parliament in a way its architects thought would be impossible. If the Tories in Scotland are moribund, Labour and the Liberal Democrats are all but invisible. The polls show support for the SNP now above 50 per cent.

English nationalism feeds Scottish nationalism. The more a Tory-led government in London detaches Britain from Europe, the more easily the pro-European SNP points to a divergence of English and Scottish national interests.

Not a few in Mr Cameron’s party celebrate both prospects. They hanker after an Elizabethan England that would make its own way in the world. The Tories could forever dominate a nation that would indeed be splendid again in its isolation. Such are the pinched politics of nationalist delusion.

Full story here:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ef3c98b4-24b6-11...l#axzz1gM2Xxjj0

GG.
wee davy
For the FT, I consider this article more than a little bit flawed.

Although its fair to say there are substantial numbers of MP's who are eurosceptic, there are precious few who think it conceivable the isolation of England, from the rest of the UK, is a goer.

Likewise, everybody appears to know Mr Salmonds's strategy, when he has consistently told people, he will not reveal the 'what, the where, and most importantly the when' until he is good and ready to do so.

Not unlike Cameron - I'm sure he will do, only what party, electorate, and circumstance will ALLOW him to.

If I had to choose between the two, however - I wouldn't buy a 2CV from either them - STILL. laugh.gif
bilbo.s
Puir wee Davy - isolated ! laugh.gif
Mathieson
QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 11th Dec 2011, 12:53am) *
And yes, good topic, pity the OP had to spoil it somewhat with his usual disjointed delivery of his own hackneyed prejudices.


Perhaps your slip ( or are those Union Jack underpants?) is also showing.



laugh.gif Uh-oh! Someone's got their sporran in a twist. As a matter of fact, I am proud to be Scottish AND British and don't care who knows it.

So proud of Scotland in fact that I actually choose to live here. smile.gif

And never you mind speculating on my choice of underway, you saucy devil you! ohmy.gif
bilbo.s
My sporran is in a drawer somewhere, being much too small to protect my assets these days. smile.gif

I am quite happy to be Scottish ( I am only "proud" of something I have achieved) but damned glad to live in Spain.

Perhaps you, like most tory unionists, have the finances to live a comfortable, warm life in Scotland. You have me at a disadvantage there. sad.gif


"Underway" ? Do you perchance mean "underlay"' Maybe you are the one who has been on the sauce. laugh.gif
Mathieson
Oops. I never drink on a school night - no idea why I would mean "underlay"? Maybe I have a "flair" for it! biggrin.gif

BTW, I may be a unionist but wouldn't describe myself as Tory, and any comforts I have were worked for, so no apologies for that.

I'm guessing you're a Scottish Nationalist of the Shur Shean Connery mould : Scotland Forever - as long as you don't have to live there! laugh.gif
mitchell
I think that Canada will be the next one to be isolated, after their disgusting decision to pull out of the Kyoto protocol. rolleyes.gif
bilbo.s
QUOTE (Mathieson @ 13th Dec 2011, 08:59pm) *
Oops. I never drink on a school night - no idea why I would mean "underlay"? Maybe I have a "flair" for it! biggrin.gif

BTW, I may be a unionist but wouldn't describe myself as Tory, and any comforts I have were worked for, so no apologies for that.

I'm guessing you're a Scottish Nationalist of the Shur Shean Connery mould : Scotland Forever - as long as you don't have to live there! laugh.gif



I am certainly not looking for an apology for your comfortable status, which I am quite sure was well earned. I however moved here for a better quality of life, as is the case with the many expats on this board. It is the best move I ever made, apart from getting married.

You seem to have a dislike of emigrants . It would be a strange world if everyone in history had stayed in their own backyard. I do not imagine that there would have been many inhabitants of your climaticallly inhospitable little island. Heaven knows what successive waves of invaders wre thinking.

Mind you, I may return in the future, if the SNP increases the WFA. laugh.gif
Mathieson
QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 14th Dec 2011, 10:35am) *
You seem to have a dislike of emigrants .


You seem to have a tendency to make big assumptions. laugh.gif
Jim D
It was well known prior to David Cameron becoming Prime Minister, that he was anti-EU. He did not hide it. Now that he his wearing the PM hat, he has a duty to change his thought process, look carefully at both sides of the argument and make decisions for the better of the WHOLE UK - not the financial city of London. Then again, he was a stokebroker prior to becoming an MP. He had a duty to keep the dialogue going between the UK and the other EU countries. He should have played his cards better by Debate, stalling for time, do anything he could which would keep him from doing what he eventually did. He should not have walked out of the meeting, throwing the dummy out of the pram and saying - AM NO PLAYIN' by using the veto. He should have started his bargaining at the "NO" position but he then has to come towards the middle - and compromise. The veto should be the VERY last resort, as it will alienate him from the others. This was obvious in the TV footage of him being caused the embarrassment of the French President refusing to shake hands. A minor point? NO! It went World-wide!

I think it is a poor reply on his part to ask the opposition how they would have dealt with it. And then try and ridicule them. If he was interested in their opinion then he might have asked for it prior to the latest round of meetings. This would not happen, he obviously did not seek counsel of his deputy prime minister and his party prior to the decision the veto.

He is protecting a financial sector who do not give a damn about us. They are only interested in making money. If that means taking a business to India, Pakistan or any other country to get the work for considerably less? Then that's exactly what they would do, resulting in the UK workforce being laid off. That would certainly help our economy! I Don't Think!!!
Mathieson
The latest meaures are doomed to failure and would have been with or without the UK's inclusion. Already other nations are conceding that to be the case. The last few pro-EU PM's contributed to getting us into this ever worsening mess. What exactly would be the point of Cameron stalling and playing for time? Decades of such behaviour hoping something would turn up, at the expense of critical decision making, is largely the reason that the EU is in such a mess.

As for the supposed snub by the French president, Sky news broadcast VT (as opposed to the still photographs in the leftist press) to show it was nothing of the kind. Mind you, even if it had been a snub what does that tell you about the French president to behave like that.
wee davy
QUOTE
He should have played his cards better


What cards might THEY have been, Jim?

Cigarette Cards?

Stamp Cards?

Tarot Cards?
Jim D
I am not privy to the full content of the talks and therefore can only comment on what I've heard on the BBC etc. I do know that you don't throw the dummy out of the pram. You must play the game - like a game of game of game of poker. You try and keep negotiations going whilst thinking of a reasonable alternative that other countries might buy into. Fair enough to say NO at the start of the negotiations but there must be compromise. You cannot go through life without it.
The latest is that Sweden and Ireland are now making noises in dissent but that is because they suspect that their voters would not back it in a referendum. Hungary are also dissenting but they have been in that position since Cameron walked away from negotiations. If Cameron had stayed with the talks he might have convinced other countries to support his line. Instead, he had shown an arrogance that nobody likes. The french might be like that but that does not mean that the UK should adopt the same approach. It is an aspect that is not liked by most people.
wee davy
By KEEPING our ONLY cards (The City) close to his chest, Jim, he might just be pulling an ACE out of his sleeve, yet.
As its oft said 'its not over 'till the fat lady sings' (no disrespect intended)

Angela is already making 'cooing' signs, about how we are still a critical member of the Union.
Nice of her to say so lol (I really do mean that)
bilbo.s
Metaphor-fizz !
wee davy
laugh.gif LOL I'll take that as a compliment, bilbo wink.gif

(It WAS a bit RICH in metaphoricals!)
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 11th Dec 2011, 01:26am) *
Germany and France are calling the shots because Germany and France are the main financiers of the EU.

True, but they are also the biggest spenders in the EU, both are also per-capita bigger spenders, and France alone consumes 50% more per capita of the EU budget than does the UK. In fact, the UK spend of EU budget is the lowest of the top five financiers of the Union.


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