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Jupiter
SNP has announced intense campaign to win independence referendum. Will Glasgow benefit from home rule if it wins?
wee davy
I think the question is, has it anything really to LOSE???
ashfield
I think it will not come as any surprise that I am neither a fan of the SNP or of Scotland becoming independent but it seems more and more the most likely proposition. What will it mean for Glasgow, my guess is we will still play second fiddle to Edinburgh for a share of a diminished economy.
benny
Unless the referendum is rigged, I don't see the result being a "Yes" vote in favour of Independence. I believe most people will vote to remain as part of the UK - perhaps not an overwhelming majority, but still a majority. Even if a referendum does give a positive result in favour of Independence, it's still a long way from the achievement of that state. So, I don't think we need worry at the moment about how well Glasgow would do under an independent Scottish government.
bilbo.s
So you can just continue to worry how it will do under the status quo. unsure.gif

Plenty to be going on with there. rolleyes.gif
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Jupiter @ 23rd Oct 2011, 05:08pm) *
SNP has announced intense campaign to win independence referendum. Will Glasgow benefit from home rule if it wins?

Yes, as the country's biggest city, Glasgow, like the rest of the country will benefit from independence. Although the Brit Nats have probably started their whispering campaign of, Edinburgh will get all the benefit's. Start an east/west divide to keep the native's squabbling amongst themselves (look how successful the divide and conquer by religion has worked for over 300years) however i would like to think the Nation is finally wakening up to their lie's and their condescending, too small, too poor, too stupid remarks. I Know that i'll be rounded on by the unionists, so let the debate begin.
GG
'Devolution Max' might be on the ballot paper also:
QUOTE
SNP treads 'road to independence'

Alex Salmond has committed the SNP to campaign "full square" for independence in the forthcoming referendum.

It's likely to be one of two options on the ballot paper, alongside what's nicknamed "devolution max" - full tax powers for Holyrood, with defence and foreign affairs staying under Westminster control.

The SNP believes it can secure a "yes" vote for "devo max". That's it's fall back position.

It hopes to persuade a majority of Scots to go further and say "yes" to independence too.

Work is under way to design an independence blueprint that can command popular support.

Much of this work is being done by a team of officials, who serve the Scottish government as part of the UK civil service. ...

Full story here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scot...litics-15420671

GG.
Dylan
QUOTE (Jupiter @ 23rd Oct 2011, 05:08pm) *
SNP has announced intense campaign to win independence referendum. Will Glasgow benefit from home rule if it wins?


NO !
bilbo.s
QUOTE (Dylan @ 23rd Oct 2011, 08:34pm) *
NO !


No even a " mibbes" ? biggrin.gif
wee davy
So, ... that'll be nae debate frae him! rolleyes.gif
Heather
Why only Glasgow to benefit, what about the rest of Scotland???
Jupiter
Heather,I worded the topic deliberately as it is a Glasgow Guide Discussion Board although that does not preclude views on benefits or otherwise for the rest of Scotland.I hope to read many.
Joop
rolleyes.gif
Heather
Aye ok Jup, don't worry about it, all is forgiven. laugh.gif
Mathieson
Have to agree with Benny, as I don't see a majority voting for independence.
benny
Perhaps I should qualify my previous statement. I don't think the majority of people in Scotland want Independence, but that doesn't mean a referendum result couldn't be favourable for the SNP. It depends on the terms of the referendum. Many people felt that the 1979 devolution referendum was slanted against a "Yes" vote because of the qualifying condition that 40% of the electorate would have to be in favour. A majority of those who voted were in favour, but voter turnout was only 60 odd %, so the conditions weren't met, and devolution was delayed for another 20 years. Perhaps the Scottish Government's referendum might be similarly slanted in favour of Independence.
GG
My personal opinion is that there needs to be radical change in the way Glasgow approaches the deep-rooted problems which afflict the city, and are reflected in Glasgow being at the bottom of the league in almost every metric in education, health, social welfare, economics, wellbeing, business, etc.

Next year's local elections will be an indicator of whether the SNP has a plausible plan for solving (or at least addressing) Glasgow's endemic problems. The party will have to offer visionary and credible thinking if it is to overcome the inertia, disinterest and intransigence by which the Glasgow electorate has come to be characterised. Basically, they will have to inspire people to ditch Glasgow's traditional 'we've always voted Labour' pack mentality and get out there and vote SNP. A tough ask!

As far as I am aware, the SNP believes that winning Glasgow next year will be a crucial milestone, making the road to independence logistically that much easier. If the nationalists take George Square, they will be able to influence Glaswegians as never before, while at the same time removing a significant opposition bulwark to independence.

Interesting times!

GG.
Heather
If I remember correctly at the last Election the SNP promised to change the way criminals get out of Prison having served little more that half the time they were given.
That promise has not been kept and I am sickened at the amount of times I have read recently about murderers, rapists and knife criminals getting out of Prison early and those who have committed serious crime's getting out on Bail only to murder / rape someone else.

Then we have the same criminals claiming their Human Rights have been violated and getting awarded thousands of pounds of taxpayers money, the same criminals who have denied decent living people their Human Rights to life.
The cost of feeding and clothing them in Prison should be deducted from any awards they get and those they offended against or their relations should sue them for compensation for the crime's against them.
mlconnelly
Deducting the cost of their imprisonment from their Human Rights compensation is inspirational. I bow before your genius Heather, absolutely brilliant. Mary laugh.gif
Scotsman
If all of Scotland is to benefit then why should Glasgow not benefit too? London Labour has never gave a toss for the people of Glasgow unless its election time and then after that they just forget about us. It would be far easier for our politicians to be heard in a stronger Edinburgh government than it is in a distant Westminster. Glasgow would need to lose the big chip on its shoulder that Labour likes to give it to try and make people think that we are being hard done by and stir things up with Edinburghers. I say go for it because just now we have no voice at all.... just politicians looking out for themselves!!
Mathieson
QUOTE (Scotsman @ 24th Oct 2011, 11:52am) *
London Labour has never gave a toss for the people of Glasgow unless its election time and then after that they just forget about us.

It's at least as true to say Glasgow Labour has never gave a toss for the people of Glasgow unless its election time and then after that they just forget about us.
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Mathieson @ 24th Oct 2011, 01:00pm) *
It's at least as true to say Glasgow Labour has never gave a toss for the people of Glasgow unless its election time and then after that they just forget about us.

Couldn't agree with you more Mathie, but not just Labour, none of the unionist party's give a toss about Scotland until they come looking for our votes.
GG
Looks like the contest is off-and-running for real right enough! The SNP has claimed "bullying" at Westminster, while Labour suspects that they are victims of an orchestrated "dirty tricks" campaign.

QUOTE
Labour MP Ian Davidson says sorry to select committee

A Labour MP who was accused of making a bullying remark has apologised for "any offence that might have been caused".

SNP MP Eilidh Whiteford alleged that Ian Davidson threatened her during a private hearing of the Scottish Affairs Select Committee.

Mr Davidson said sorry at the start of the new session of the committee, which he chairs.

However, the Glasgow South West MP continued to deny that any remark he had made was threatening. ...

Full story here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scot...litics-15459725

GG.
JAGZ1876
I wonder if Ian Davidson would still see it as non threatening if someone had threatened to give his Mother/Wife/Daughter, a DOING at their workplace. The man is a buffoon.
GG
Listen to the two sides of the controversy speak on the Radio Scotland:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scot...litics-15480147

GG.
Dylan
I see the Blessed Salmond had to apologise to the Scottish Parliament for lying regarding the benefits of a two quesion Referendum !!!

Will we now get one question ?

Not the first lie nor I should think the last,

Davidson would appear not to have threatened anyone. Supported by Tories and Liberals.?

Yes Independence Campaign Begins !!
GG
The Lib Dems have there say on the ballot paper choices:
QUOTE
Dr Matt Qvortrup a renowned expert on electoral administration, based at Cranfield University, said that the First Minister’s plans to present Scots with the options of both independence and DevoMax, voting yes/no to each, would succeed only in “muddying the waters’ and was ‘not feasible”

Dr Qvortrup went on to say that “as far as I know there are no examples of what Mr Salmond is proposing anywhere in the world.”

Commenting, Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie said:

“The First Minister should listen to the SNP’s favourite constitutional expert.

“The SNP won a mandate to hold an independence referendum but they did not win a mandate to manipulate the referendum result.

“Scottish voters will want their views to be represented fairly but the SNP’s plans could make that impossible.

“The First Minister must intervene personally to resolve this critical issue.”

Willie Rennie MSP

GG.
Dave Grieve
Surley this is not another politician wanting to have his cake and eat it. Lying scum every one!
irrie
Morning all. If Mr Salmond has not got the courage of his convictons he should stop spouting the independence line. It seems to me that Devo max represents a climb down from the Snp. If you think Scotland can prosper as an independent country thats the only decision you need to make. Otherwise its the old story we will still be classed as a region of the UK. Cheers.
wee davy
'Devo Max' sounds like a new brand of coffee, to me.
(Or a toilet bowl cleaner!)

Question is,... will it be Decaf, Caf, or Turkish?

Make mine an au laite, whatever it is.
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Dylan @ 27th Oct 2011, 09:55pm) *
I see the Blessed Salmond had to apologise to the Scottish Parliament for lying regarding the benefits of a two quesion Referendum !!!

Will we now get one question ?

Not the first lie nor I should think the last,

Davidson would appear not to have threatened anyone. Supported by Tories and Liberals.?

Yes Independence Campaign Begins !!

Try and keep up Dylan, not only has Ian Davidson apologised for his "DOING" gaffe, then laying low for 24 hours, he then went on air yesterday to publicly apologise to Dr Whiteford, two apologise's, hardly the actions of a man who "would appear not to have threatened anyone".
As for Alex Salmond's apology, you really must distinguish between a lie and an honest mistake, just prior to his speech the First Minister had been handed the information by an aide, as soon as the mistake had been noticed he rushed back into the chamber to apologise to Parliament for the misleading quote, stating that the mistake was his, and his alone. In my opinion that act showed a man of integrity, something sadly lacking in politics today, perhaps Labour MSP Johanna Lamont might like to follow his lead by apologising for misleading parliament 3 weeks ago by quoting a fictitious court case that was wrongly reported in the Evening Times. But then again when unionist MSPs slip up the media brush it under the carpet.
GG
A secent overview of the independce referendum situation, told from a foreign view, can be found in the Canadian press here:

‘Liberty's in every blow' as Scots march to referendum
http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1077468

Includes analysis linking independence to the Thatcher era:
QUOTE
... Nicola McEwen, a political scientist at the University of Edinburgh, says Scotland's independence streak has to be seen in the context of an unravelling relationship with Britain — part of a larger, global pattern of increasing distance between the governed and the government.

For modern-day Scotland, it may well have begun with British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s, whose efforts to crush the coal miners and impose a Scottish poll tax can still provoke ire. Included among the more political exhibits at the National Museum is an SNP poster featuring a caricature of Thatcher, her grinning mouth dripping oil:

“No wonder she's laughing. She's got Scotland's oil.”

“With devolution, we now have a distinct welfare system in Scotland, a distinct health system in Scotland, in particular, and some distinct social services,” McEwen explains.

“So the big symbolic policies of devolution are around social care and the public services — free tuition for students, free personal care for the elderly, things that are symbolically very important and highlighting the differences between Scotland and England . . . Now I don't think social security or unemployment benefits or any of these things have the emotional value that they might have had 30 years ago. But nonetheless it does help to articulate an argument that says that there's nothing to keep us there.” ...
JAGZ1876
Yes GG, the independence campaign is attracting worldwide interest, especially at the SNP conference in Inverness two weeks ago when a record number of 20 foreign diplomats attended. The Canadian article was lacking any real information, i'm sure that most of the 4.5 million Canadians of Scottish ancestry that Ms Delacourt made reference to would be more than aware of the situation. She tried to make several comparisons about Canada and the Quebec separatist movement, but both are different issue's. As for quoting a University political scientist....! the present day campaign pre date's Thatcher by decades. But i welcome the worldwide attention this debate is bringing to the country.
Dylan
Why Jagz, do you feel the need to patronise me just because we disagree. The minute you do,signals that you have lost the debate.

Davidson said he apologised if anyone felt threatened. However he denied threatening anyone and was supported by the other MSP's present and is now not guilty of the accusation.

Dirty Tricks are what the SNP are well known for . This one back fired

Salmond lied,he knows it I know it and the public who seen him squirm on TV know it.

Another Dirty trick which back fired and no matter the spin you and the SNP try to put on it, he lied.

I do keep up, you do not have the monopoly on political awareness or interpretation.

However I will conclude in the manner you should have adopted.

You are entitled to your opinion , we disagree , I can live with that and wellcome the cut and thrust of debate..

JAGZ1876
Well i'm sorry if you felt i was patronising you Dylan, that was certainly not my intention. As for Ian Davidson, like i said he apologised twice. May i also say that rather than accusing me of spin, it is you who guilty of spin by stating " Davidson said he apologised if anyone felt threatened", well Dr Whiteford clearly felt threatened. You have to admit it was a stupid thing to say, particularly to a woman that, "she'll get a DOING", this from a man who's supposed to be a top Labour politician.
You then said "Dirty tricks are what the SNP are well known for", this coming from a labour supporter, all i can say is, pot's, Kettle's Black.
And to say "Salmond lied" just isn't true, as i said in my earlier post, he held his hands up and admitted he had gave out false information, not a lie, he believed the information he had to be true. We have all been guilty of giving out false facts, i know i have, i'm sure you have too Dylan, but when we realise we are wrong we admit our mistake, but at no time would we expect to be called a liar, so i think your accusations about Alex Salmond are harsh.
You claim you know that he lied, that is your right , but don't claim to speak for everyone else who saw the apology, as they can make their own minds up, the day's of Labour telling the people of Scotland what they think are thankfully over.
And finally Dylan, what you call lie's, i call honest mistake's, so tell me. Why has Labours northern party leader candidate, Ms Johanna Lamont not apologised yet for misleading parliament almost one month later?. Or is it only SNP politicians who have the bottle to admit mistake's immediately.
Dylan
Thank you Jagz for the apology. I accept what you say and respect your response.

What Davidson said seems to reflect what Paper we read ! ?

I am of the opinion that all Political Parties are guilty of dirty tricks and suspect that the best praticioners of the black art usually win .

Now I think my statement is a " win win ". !

Time will tell tongue.gifo
Mathieson
QUOTE
“With devolution, we now have a distinct welfare system in Scotland, a distinct health system in Scotland, in particular, and some distinct social services,” McEwen explains.

“So the big symbolic policies of devolution are around social care and the public services — free tuition for students, free personal care for the elderly, things that are symbolically very important and highlighting the differences between Scotland and England . . . Now I don't think social security or unemployment benefits or any of these things have the emotional value that they might have had 30 years ago. But nonetheless it does help to articulate an argument that says that there's nothing to keep us there.” ...

So the Nats idea to save Scotland is to continue to increase our already over-burgeoning public expenditure by handing our free this, free that and free the next thing? When you consider that Scotland already takes a disproportionate amount per capita from the existing UK welfare coffers where is all this money to come from in future?
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Mathieson @ 30th Oct 2011, 10:41pm) *
So the Nats idea to save Scotland is to continue to increase our already over-burgeoning public expenditure by handing our free this, free that and free the next thing? When you consider that Scotland already takes a disproportionate amount per capita from the existing UK welfare coffers where is all this money to come from in future?

No Mathie, this is not the SNP idea to save Scotland, this woman (Nicola McEwan) who is being quoted, is a political scientist (what ever the hell that means) at the University of Edinburgh, as i pointed out in an earlier post her views are flawed and her own. She does not speak for the Scottish Government, you have taken a passage from a larger piece by a Canadian woman who i think has just wiki or Googled her way through it.
You also said that Scotland gets a disproportionate amount per capita from the UK coffers. Not according to the most recently released UK Treasury figure's, London gets more per capita than anywhere else in the UK, bang goes that myth.
The same figure's show that Scotland, with 8.7% of the uk population, actually paid in 9.3% of the total UK taxes into the UK Treasury (so we're not the subsidy junkie's that consecutive Westminster governments have lied to us about for decades) even Annabel Goldie admitted this to the tory party faithful in her leaving speech at the conference last month. Bang, there goes another myth.
Not only that Mathie, those tax figure's don't even include North sea oil tax revenue's, straight from the horse's mouth, we would still prosper as an independent nation, even without oil. Bang, those myths just keep on falling, just like the popularity of the Brit Nat party's.
Mathieson
Salmond at times can make Boris Johnson appear perceptive. He's all over the place at the moment. This will be another honest mistake from him then...

Alex Salmond's claim that Scotland can leave Britain and still keep the pound has been challenged - by one of his own economic gurus.
And Labour are demanding that the First Minister publish the legal advice his government have been given on the issue.
Salmond insists that Scotland could split from the UK and be part of the European Union without having to give up sterling in favour of the euro.
But he's under pressure over his claim after expert Professor Andrew Hughes Hallet - a member of Salmond's Council of Economic Advisers - cast doubt on it in a new book.
The St Andrews University academic wrote: "All new members of the EU are required to join the euro eventually.
"It is not clear there are grounds to argue that Scotland has the right to inherit the UK's current euro opt-out."
Labour's shadow finance secretary, Richard Baker, seized on the professor's words. He said: "The SNP are in fantasy land if they think they can rewrite European treaties."
Baker said it was "now of huge importance" that the Nats reveal the legal advice they've been given on the currency issue. He claimed: "The SNP are refusing to publish it because they know they are talking nonsense."
SNP deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon insisted: "An independent Scotland would be in exactly the same position as the rest of the UK as a successor state."
A YouGov poll yesterday put support for independence at 34 per cent, with 52 per cent opposed.
JAGZ1876
Hi Mathie, I think you mean't to say that Alex Salmond is so perceptive, that he make's his political opponents look like Boris Johnson. I mean think about it, since winning the election in May with a huge majority (that devolution was set up so that no one party could have a large majority) we have had the 3 Brit Nat partys losing their leaders. So maybe you can tell me why you think he's all over the place?
As for Alex Salmonds claim that Scotland can leave Britain and still retain the pound.
Why not, there has been a precedent set on exactly this scenario already.
Australia on becoming an independent state in 1907 kept sterling for three years before introducing the Australian Pound, so Scotland could do the same thing, not that we will though, because all possibilities will be examined, nothing has been set in stone.
As for Andrew Hughes Hallets theory, where did you paste it from Mathie, i would really like to read the full text.
As for the YouGov poll, that must have been taken in Larkhall biggrin.gif
Dylan
Hi Jagz,

Why do you persist in referring to parties opposed to the SNP as BNP (Brit Nats) supporters ?

I oppose the SNP and have no affinaty to the BNP whatsoever.

They are Fascist/Rascist , everything I have spent my life fighting.

All Nationalism has a dark side and the SNP are closer to the BNP than I am.

I am Left Wing ,who happens to be happy to be Scottish and British.

Could I suggest you use the word Unionist.?
JAGZ1876
Hi Dylan, i have never referred to the BNP, or anyone on this site as a BNP supporter. When i say Brit Nat, it is just a contraction of British National, it saves time, just the same way you and i write SNP, instead of Scottish National Party. I really can't see where your coming from here Dylan, you say your happy to be called British, but not a British National, have you never seen news reports of trouble in a foreign country, and the foreign office advising British Nationals to leave. I share your views on the BNP and despise their Fascist/Racist views, my father like many others spent six years of his life fighting against those who shared those same views. That is why i find your accusation that a multi cultural political party like the SNP would share those views as disgraceful, you should be ashamed of yourself Dylan. And to answer your last suggestion, the reason i stopped using the word Unionist, was that some people (especially in Glasgow) take exception to me and others using the term, even though they vote for unionist party's. No, it doesn't make sense to me ether.
Dylan
Hi Jagz,

When you told me to " try to keep up " I thought you were being patronising but no it was my fault for taking you the wrong way. Not your fault.

Scottish National Party are referred to as Scot Nats., so it is not unreasonable, that when you refer to me and any one who disagrees with you ,as a Brit Nat., I think it is a " contraction " of British National Party , which I find offensive, but no it is my fault again for taking you the wrong way. Not your fault.

You should not be surprised therefor that on a Glasgow Discussion Board you will experience response in the Glasgow style,and that is what I did .!!

I still think Nationalism is devisive and has a dark side.

I came to this conclusion because Nationalist I have experience of include Franco, Hitler and Mussolini.

I think you calling those who disagree with you a Brit Nat is disgracefull.

You think it is OK .

If you stop saying disgracefull things then so will I. Promise

I have no objection to being called a Unionist because I support the Union as do the majority of Scots if given a one question referendum. !!

JAGZ1876
Hi again Dylan, I think we agree on most topics here especially about the three fascist amigos. If my referring to you as a British National offends you then i will respect your wishes and call you a unionist, but like i said in my previous post, not everyone who vote's for one of the three main British Unionist party's, like to be called unionists. We're taking this off topic Dylan so to finish. Did i misunderstand you when you said that the SNP and myself, were closer to the BNP, than the Unionist party you vote for and yourself? If you did mean it i would like you clarify it.
Dylan
Hi Jagz,

I said the SNP were closer to the BNP than I am, by defination " Nationalism ".

This was in response to you referring to those opposed to Scottish Nationalism as a " Brit Nat "

I am neither.

I did not make it personal by stating you ..

I do not vote for The Unionist Pary , I vote for a Party who wish to retain the Union and oppose Nationalism but have other policies and agendas.
JAGZ1876
QUOTE (Dylan @ 1st Nov 2011, 10:04pm) *
Hi Jagz,

I said the SNP were closer to the BNP than I am, by defination " Nationalism ".

This was in response to you referring to those opposed to Scottish Nationalism as a " Brit Nat "

I am neither.

I did not make it personal by stating you ..

I do not vote for The Unionist Pary , I vote for a Party who wish to retain the Union and oppose Nationalism but have other policies and agendas.

Hi Dylan, we're getting bogged down a bit on wordplay. You say the SNP were closer to the BNP "by definition" of the word National, then using your own logic, you are closer to the BNP by definition of the word British (see how ridiculous this is getting) the problem you seem to have is you associate the word Nationalist with fascism. But the dictionary definition of Nationalist is, " Devotion to the interests and culture of one's nation". So how come you infer your devotion to the interests and culture of Britain = Good/righteous, whereas my devotion to the interest and culture of Scotland = Bad/Evil. I don't get it Dylan!. And i didn't say you vote for THE unionist party, i said the unionist party you vote FOR. You said the party you vote for, "wish to retain the Union" so by definition (there's that word again) they are clearly a UNIONIST party. You also say "they oppose nationalism", they don't Dylan, they only (by definition) oppose Scottish Nationalism. Dylan, it's been fun, but i think we'll have to draw a line under this and agree to disagree, maybe even get back on topic. Take care.
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (Dylan @ 1st Nov 2011, 09:11pm) *
I have no objection to being called a Unionist because I support the Union as do the majority of Scots if given a one question referendum. !!

How can you tell?

Dylan
Pretty new so you may not be aware of them.

Opinion Polls rolleyes.gif
Alex MacPhee
QUOTE (Dylan @ 2nd Nov 2011, 07:20pm) *
Pretty new so you may not be aware of them.

Opinion Polls

Have there been any competent polls carried out as a "one question referendum"?

wee davy
Total Bull, Dylan.

just googled recent polls, north of the border in the last couple of months - and they all show support for more/if not full independence.

I'm not sure if one has been done, re 'breaking up the union' yet - but if you asked England, it would be a resounding YES lol (and I'm not pulling your leg)

Once again, this is not necessarily a reflection of my own voting intention (if I were offered one).
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