Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Should Catholic Church Have Any Say In Parliamentary Decisions?
Glasgow Boards/Forums > GG Discussions > Other Discussions
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14
tamhickey
Unsurprisingly, the Catholic church has come out (irony there), strongly against gay marriage. One of the reasons given was that marriage resulted in progeny. That in itself is false as there are many people out there who either cannot or choose not to have a family. I believe that some of their utterances are completely offensive, not just to gay people, but to voters generally.

THE Archbishop of Glasgow has stepped up a campaign against gay marriage by warning any change in the law was “at our peril”.

Mario Conti said the Catholic Church will actively fight against the previously “unthinkable” issue which was being considered in a “largely post-Christian society”.

He also claimed the Scottish Government does not have a mandate to “reconstruct society on ideological grounds”.

The Government is holding a consultation on whether same-sex marriage should be introduced. A similar debate is taking place south of the border.

The archbishop made the comments yesterday in a statement being sent to Scotland’s 500 Catholic parishes to encourage parishioners to complete a declaration in defence of marriage.

Reconstruct society on ideological views??? Isn't that what Mario Conti is proposing?
Surely love has to be the most important thing here, yet that word doesn't even enter into the argument. If you believe in Christianity at all, then surely love ought to be the starting point for your views.
I have to declare an interest here. On Saturday, I attended the civil partnership of my brother in law and his partner in Bournemouth. The ceremony was attended by over 200 people from all over Britain and it was just as beautiful and meaningful as any marriage ceremony you'll ever attend.
Why shouldn't gay people of whatever sex be recognised by law as having the same rights as heterosexual couples?
I personally don't see why they can't and find it offensive that people who (allegedly) never have sex feel they have the right to pronounce on everyone else's sex lives. It's none of their business, it's discriminatory and has no basis in Christianity. Old testament, yes, but wasn't Christ meant to preach love and tolerance as compared to the ancient texts?
I also find it hugely offensive that any church, regardless of religeon are trying to influence our parliament, therefore attempting to circumvent the democratic will of the people.
Your religeon /spirituality should be your choice, as should the decisions you take in life, but it seems that a few of the churches tell people to deny who they are in terms of sexuality.
It's no wonder that so many people are moving away from the churches,; they just don't seem relevant in many ways nowadays.
I hope I haven't upset anyone with this topic, but I believe in equality for all, and that includes the equality for priests to fall in love and get married.
murphy
I do not think ANY CHURCH SHOULD have a say in Government. This topic could open cans of worms. And I do hope your family members will have a happy life together.
Dave Grieve
I dont believe the catholic church should have any say with any goverments decisions and by that I mean worldwide.

What they are probably doing is voicing their official position and mobilising support for that position.
The homosexual and lesbian groups have been doing the same for years and have achieved success far beyond their expectations.
In a recent survey in Britain these groups were found to only make up 1.5% of the population

However if the real question you are asking is'Should homosexual or lesbian marriages be legalised' my answer is definetly not!
I find it offensive and an insult to the majority of people that have entered into a state of marriage. never mind voters in general
irrie
I agree that no church should be able to dictate to government. They are entitled to air their views but for any church to say that they speak for all Christians is a nonsense in this day and age. Cheers
TeeHeeHee
It's silly to asume that churches do not have a say in government since the church's advice, opinions or cannons are heard and probably adhered to by practicing members of their faiths who occupy government seats.
Can we be expected to believe that the Fid Def has no influence on her parliament? I remember the great hue and cry over the likelyhood that JFK would bring papal ideology into the White House during his election campaign.
Religious leaders will have their say and the faithful will follow the leader.
It's never been any different and it'll never change.
ashfield
It's not just church groups, charities, newspapers, unions, CBI etc (not to mention the odd celebrity rolleyes.gif ) will try and influence the outcome of govermental voting. Some people will try to tell you what to think, when somebody does that to me me I usually do the opposite.
Jupiter
I have no objection to same sex relationships,none at all.I dont however see how such a relationship could ever be described as a marriage.
Heather
Gays can now have a Civil Partnership which they refer to as 'marriage' so now they want to be properly married, I think not.

I am 100% against this and will certainly be signing a petition against it happening and not because of what our Archbishop ot Priest tells me, but because of what my conscience tells me.

Marriage between a man & woman existed before the state and a proper marriage can only be between a man & woman.

I am not a gay basher but I'm sick to the teeth hearing about gay rights, gay marches etc.
Dave Grieve
I've always wondered why a perfectly good word like Gay was bastardised to hide the sexual preferences of a minority of men and woman?
Surely they could have come up with another word or phrase to describe themselves instead of hijacking any word.
Heather
Dave I have often wondered about that as well. How the word Homosexual was shortened down to 'gay' wub.gif
Jupiter
I too wondered about the use of the gay word.I always thought the word poof or queer sort of fitted the situation.
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (Heather @ 10th Oct 2011, 11:14am) *
Dave I have often wondered about that as well. How the word Homosexual was shortened down to 'gay' wub.gif

I think Larry Grayson might have some influence there.
Oh what a gay day. rolleyes.gif biggrin.gif
Dave Grieve
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 10th Oct 2011, 01:27pm) *
I think Larry Grayson might have some influence there.
Oh what a gay day. rolleyes.gif biggrin.gif


I dont know who Larry Grayson is? but its become a universal term.
Guest
"Gay" is an acronym = Good As You
proudmaryhiller
I think the Catholic Church should keep their nose out who do they think they are to dictate to people what's right and wrong, some of them are the biggest hippocrites walking, life is too short and if people find their soul mate be they Gay or straight well good luck to them, and why should they not be allowed to marry, they are not harming anyone are they.

I don't have any problem with Gay people, live and let live.
kenb
i am not "homophobic" anti gay , but i am against hypocrits like the religous leaders of the catholic church threatening me or mine ref "at our peril" get your own house in order springs to mind also the words CHILD ABUSE get it sorted first. mad.gif
zascot
I NOW NEVER ENJOY THE " GAY GORDONS" LIKE I USED TO. biggrin.gif
Dave Grieve
QUOTE (kenb @ 10th Oct 2011, 02:44pm) *
i am not "homophobic" anti gay , but i am against hypocrits like the religous leaders of the catholic church threatening me or mine ref "at our peril" get your own house in order springs to mind also the words CHILD ABUSE get it sorted first. mad.gif

I agree with you about the abuse of kids, and I think a lot of those probems would never have happened if priests had been allowed to get married, but then the Vatican would never have become so rich if that had been the case.

Your explanation about the origination of the term 'Gay' I find a bit too improbable.
I think if anything the explanation was made to fit the word.
Dylan
Man invented Marriage and made the rules ,so Man can change the rules.

If two Gays wish to Marry and can find a Cleric to Marry then so be it.

However no Cleric, or official for that matter, should be ordered to Marry them if it is against their conscience.

Live and let live.

Churches , like everyone else ,are entitled to their opinion.

However Church and State should be separate.
Dave Grieve
QUOTE (zascot @ 10th Oct 2011, 03:07pm) *
I NOW NEVER ENJOY THE " GAY GORDONS" LIKE I USED TO. biggrin.gif

Hey Zascot dont be like that my wifes old man was a Gordon Highlander for over 20 years and believe me he was the life and soul of many a party.
I suppose you could have called him a gay old party goer. laugh.gif laugh.gif
fourbytwo
for the past 100 years or more, the RC Church not only interfered, but was in a position to actually dictate which Councillor was elected, into local communities, in particular the Labour party.
Anyone who did not know this has had their head in the ground too long.....!
With every election from before the First World War, the RC Church has dictated every and all election candidates, so that RC doctrine is foremost in Political areas where dominance is mandatory........Schools, Health Services, Policing and countless other services are 'overloaded' with RC influence to ensure that they, as a religious force, are able to manipulate decisions as to local and National Services.....................Not so much an influence nowadays, but for decades, being other than RC was a real handicap for Glaswegians........Try the Mitchell library for real eye-openers....!
JAGZ1876
I find it hard to understand how a man who wear's a dress at his work would object to a pair of consenting adults entering into a loving and legal union. Surely the Catholic Church has far more important issue's to be getting on with, such as their worldwide child abuse scandals, falling congregation numbers, etc. I do not mind them airing their opinions in public, that is a right we all have, but to say the government "Do not have a mandate on reconstructing society on ideological ground's" the electorate at the last election gave them the mandate to do just that, or perhaps Archbishop Conti isn't a fan of democracy, maybe he wishes this was still the middle age's, where the church could go around telling people how to live their lives, and slaughtering those who dared to disagree. Religious people will always find a passage in the bible to suit their point of view, so as an atheist let me end by quoting Jesus "Let he that is without sin cast the first stone". Back to you Archbishop.
angel
QUOTE (Jupiter @ 10th Oct 2011, 10:50am) *
I too wondered about the use of the gay word.I always thought the word poof or queer sort of fitted the situation.

I think so , ! ...........................

QUOTE
How ‘Gay’ Came to Mean ‘Homosexual’

The word “gay” seems to have its origins around the 12th century in England, derived from the Old French word ‘gai’, which in turn was probably derived from a Germanic word, though that isn’t completely known. The word’s original meaning meant something to the effect of “joyful”, “carefree”, “full of mirth”, or “bright and showy”.

However, around the early parts of the 17th century, the word began to be associated with immorality. By the mid 17th century, according to an Oxford dictionary definition at the time, the meaning of the word had changed to mean “addicted to pleasures and dissipations. Often euphemistically: Of loose and immoral life”. This is an extension of one of the original meanings of “carefree”, meaning more or less uninhibited. Fast-forward to the 19th century and the word gay referred to a woman who was a prostitute and a gay man was someone who slept with a lot of women, often prostitutes. Sort of ironical that today a gay man doesn’t sleep with women. Also at this time, the phrase “gay it” meant to have sex.

With these new definitions, the original meanings of “carefree”, “joyful”, and “bright and showy” were still around; so the word was not exclusively used to refer to prostitutes or a promiscuous man. Those were just accepted definitions, along with the other meanings of the word.

Around the 1920s and 1930s however, the word started to have a new meaning. In terms of the sexual meaning of the word, a “gay man” no longer just meant a man who had sex with a lot of women, but now started to refer to men who had sex with other men. There was also another word “gey cat” at this time which meant a homosexual boy.

By 1955 the word gay now officially acquired the new added definition of meaning homosexual males. Gay men themselves seem to have been behind the driving thrust for this new definition as they felt (and most still do), that “homosexual” is much too clinical sounding and is often thought as offensive among gay people due to sounding like a disorder. As such, it was common amongst themselves to refer to one another as gay decades before this was a commonly known definition (reportedly homosexual men were calling one another gay as early as the 1920s). At this time, homosexual women were referred to as lesbians, not gay. Although women could still be called gay if they were prostitutes as that meaning had not yet 100% disappeared.

Since then, gay, meaning homosexual male, has steadily driven out all the other definitions that have floated about through time and of course also has gradually began supplementing the word ‘lesbian’ as referring to women who were homosexual.

Not satisfied with simply changing its definition once a century, as early as the 1980s a new definition for the word gay started popping up among American youth where now something gay could either mean a homosexual or something that is “lame” or “stupid” or the like. This new definition was originally almost exclusively meant as an insulting term.

This has gradually spread to the United Kingdom and the rest of Europe. Interestingly, today, according to a report done by the BBC, most children are still using the word to mean “lame”, but now with having nothing to do with sexuality of any sort and also not generally meant as an insulting term against people. Now it is used more to the effect of just saying, for instance, “That movie was gay” as in stupid, but having nothing to do with homosexuality in their minds and not generally directed at people (thus not supposedly meant to be offensive to the gay community). Whereas the origins of this new “lame” or “stupid” definition were most definitely meant to be insulting and were primarily directed at people.
TeeHeeHee
Angel, try editing out the superfluous stuff and wrap the quoted stuff in quote tags please. wink.gif biggrin.gif
wee davy
Hey guys - is this 'lets kick a few Catholics day' today???

All because an Archbishop said he disagreed with gay marriage?

Most of you seem to be saying 'I don't mind them having they're opinion' - as long as their not allowed to influence anything, or AIR that opinion. If you do not belong to a faith, how come you suddenly become experts on it

There are a great many things wrong with the human condition - and their certainly NOT exclusive to Catholics. Personally? I'm staying out of this one
LOL

davy

RESPECT
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (wee davy @ 10th Oct 2011, 04:30pm) *
.. If you do not belong to a faith, how come you suddenly become experts on it

What do you want to know Davy? Just ask me. laugh.gif
Dave Grieve
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 10th Oct 2011, 05:35pm) *
What do you want to know Davy? Just ask me. laugh.gif


Dont ask me ask my wife biggrin.gif the kids call her Sister Josephine laugh.gif
angel
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 10th Oct 2011, 03:29pm) *
Angel, try editing out the superfluous stuff and wrap the quoted stuff in quote tags please. wink.gif biggrin.gif


Tomi, It was much more than I had Intended but I hope that it did'nt spoil your day sad.gif
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE
I hope that it did'nt spoil your day.


Findin' a dead swan while walkin' the dog did that angel.
murphy
I had a friend in the 60's whose name was Gay, I left my job to raise my children and went back to work late 70s and she had changed her name to something with less conentation. lol
wombat
QUOTE (proudmaryhiller @ 10th Oct 2011, 02:41pm) *
I think the Catholic Church should keep their nose out who do they think they are to dictate to people what's right and wrong, some of them are the biggest hippocrites walking, life is too short and if people find their soul mate be they Gay or straight well good luck to them, and why should they not be allowed to marry, they are not harming anyone are they.

life is too short and if people find their soul mate be they Gay or straight well good luck to them, and why should they not be allowed to marry, they are not harming anyone are they.

rolleyes.gif dont "all" churches/mosques/synagogues have their own brand of brainwashing ?
thats what its all about bums on seats ,filling the church coffers.

QUOTE (proudmaryhiller @ 10th Oct 2011, 02:41pm) *
I don't have any problem with Gay people, live and let live.

me neither,as long as they leave me and mine alone dry.gif
Heather
No wonder Murphy, the word GAY has a whole different meaning these days.

Not satisfied with Civil Partnerships, and being allowed to adopt children and wanting a legal marriage, the next thing we know the 'wife 'in the partnership will be wanting a fertilised womb implanted in him/her.
A refusal to do so will be against his/her Human Rights. wub.gif

When I read about a man referring to another man as his husband, it makes me want to puke.
JAGZ1876
There are a lot of things in this world that make me want to puke, but same sex relationships that are none of my business isn't one of them. Live and let live, people.
Mathieson
QUOTE (wee davy @ 10th Oct 2011, 05:30pm) *
Hey guys - is this 'lets kick a few Catholics day' today???

All because an Archbishop said he disagreed with gay marriage?

Most of you seem to be saying 'I don't mind them having they're opinion' - as long as their not allowed to influence anything, or AIR that opinion. If you do not belong to a faith, how come you suddenly become experts on it

There are a great many things wrong with the human condition - and their certainly NOT exclusive to Catholics. Personally? I'm staying out of this one
LOL

davy

RESPECT

I don't see anybody "kicking a few catholics". It's the entity that is the catholic church as a whole that seems to be getting the criticism, not individual adherents. Anyway, if the catholic church, or one of it's leading lights, sees fit to offer up some fairly uncompromising criticism of a minority then it's only to be expected that it might get the same back.
Neither has anybody suggested that any wrongs are exclusive to catholics. But if one of their clergy makes such a pronouncement then should we expect those of other faiths, or none, to take the flak for them?
Any indivial or organisation sticking their head above the parapet to involve itself in politics should know it only leaves themselves in turn open to criticism.
The catholic church in Scotland is forever banging on about it's perceived persecuction, and implied prejudice against it and it's followers. Maybe it should practice what it preaches and not seek to condemn and alienate other minorities.
wombat
mathieson sed: Neither has anybody suggested that any wrongs are exclusive to catholics. But if one of their clergy makes such a pronouncement then should we expect those of other faiths, or none, to take the flak for them?

rolleyes.gif when yie consider the worldwide claims of child sexual abuse by some clergy of "ALL "denominations who can point the finger?
Mathieson
I don't follow your point to be honest. Did you read the title of the thread? huh.gif
wombat
QUOTE (kenb @ 10th Oct 2011, 02:44pm) *
mind also the words CHILD ABUSE get it sorted first. mad.gif

dry.gif yeah i did read the title of the thread,but it always deviates to comments like the above
proudmaryhiller
Are you actually allowed an opinion on this board?

I'm certainly not anti-catholic, I was brought up in a mixed marriage and I have catholic relatives.

Wombat why wouldn't they leave you and yours alone ? rolleyes.gif

Heather, they would probably make better parents than some 'straight' couples.

Animal cruelty/child abusers, that's what makes me puke.

Tee, that must have been awful for you, poor swan, such beautiful creatures.



TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (proudmaryhiller @ 11th Oct 2011, 02:22am) *
Tee, that must have been awful for you, poor swan, such beautiful creatures.

I think it was worse for her mate who was still trying to get a response from her. It was on the French side of the Rhein but either way I could only watch. sad.gif
Dylan
Wombat,

"when yie consider the worldwide claims of child sexual abuse by some clergy of "ALL "denominations who can point the finger? "

I have an open mind and am prepared to accept your statement

So name one other Denomination, in the whole world , that has a track record which come anywhere close to the RC Church and I will fight your corner.
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (proudmaryhiller @ 11th Oct 2011, 02:22am) *
Animal cruelty/child abusers, that's what makes me puke.

Tee, that must have been awful for you, poor swan, such beautiful creatures.


I know I'm well off topic here but I feel I may be excused this time as I have a happy ending to the above tale.
I went back early this morning with Bonny, the dog, to see if the swan was still there and was surprised to see that she was still there and her mate was still in attendance. I sat near the river bank and trained my binoculars on them on the other side. The male was still fussing around her. After 10 minutes I left. I came back about an hour and a half later on my way home and sat down to watch again while I had a ciggy. I was sure I saw her head move but I thought that could have something to do with the flow of the river; it is a bit high at the moment and getting higher with the recent rain. But I did detect movement so I waited another 20 odd minutes in which time she had raised her head more than once. By the time half an hour had passed her head was upright and she was dipping her head in the water with her mate.
Yesterday when I first spotted them I did see a guy come out of the trees on the French side and although he walked to the river bank he didn't walk directly to where the swan was; although he could obviously see it, but walked a bit southwards and threw a stone out into the water then walked in the other direction and did the same. Another guy on my side of the river; also out walkin' his dog, asked, "Where did he come from?"
"He's just stepped out of the trees"
Now I'm wondering if that guy had maybe injured the swan with a stone and stepped into the trees if he saw me coming along. I had him in my binoculars too for a while and it struck me as strange at the time that he seemed to be interested in everything else around him but not the two swans in front of him. I didn't think about him after that until this morning again when he came back into my mind.
Probably purely innocent and coincidental.
Anyway, suffice to say the swan is at least alive and I'd like to think her partner played a big part in helping her.
I'll be back again tomorrow around 9am by which time I'll be glad to see they've maybe moved on. smile.gif
proudmaryhiller
Hi Tee, thanks for the update, fingers crossed the swan will be okay,are there any animal welfare organisations that could may be contacted to check on the swan? would not be surprised if that man was responsible, what a sicko. Keep us posted.
angel
Anyway, suffice to say the swan is at least alive and I'd like to think her partner played a big part in helping her.
I'll be back again tomorrow around 9am by which time I'll be glad to see they've maybe moved on.

Hello Tomi , it's nice to read your story about the Swan and because they mate for life with only one partner , I thought that the other would probably die of a broken heart sad.gif but hopefully in this instance all will be well. smile.gif

Elma
Wonderful story Tomi, and I'm hoping like you for a happy ending. Please let us know tomorrow if she has recovered enough to move with her mate who as Angel says is her partner for life.
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (proudmaryhiller @ 12th Oct 2011, 01:58am) *
... are there any animal welfare organisations that could may be contacted to check on the swan?

There are countless; for cats and dogs, hedgehogs, hawks, you name it.
I thought I'd have to call a priest (Just staying on topic there biggrin.gif )
A few years ago where the Rhein River passes through town I thought I saw a swan with a crossbow bolt sticking out of it's side. I asked a couple if the could have a look and maybe call the polizei who'd know who to contact to bring the swan in and help. They came to look and started to smile at each other as the man said to me, "You don't know much about swans, do you?"
Apparently I was looking at a male swan who had his left leg out of the water and turned up towards his back and waving his flipper around to impress a female as he paddled circles around her with the other foot under water.
Courtship ritual.
The closed flipper against his side had the appearance of the flights on a crossbow bolt (remember we have William Tell territory just over the border here rolleyes.gif )
That's why I was able to decide that it was the female which I thought was dead on Monday. The male was doing the flipper routine and continually nudging her with his bill while he was passing.
Two more coffees and I'm off to get Bonnie.
Let you know later what happens. wink.gif
Jim D
Religion affects government every day.

The prime minister must be a protestant, as his office is also an office in the Church of England - similar to the queen being defender of the faith.

A number of years ago, the law had to be changed to allow David Cairns to become an MP. He had been a catholic priest for a number of years. This barred him from being an MP! By coincidence, he was also gay but there was no law barring him from being an MP on those grounds.
Jim D
I see no problem in anyone "enlightening" me to a possible change of law which might affect me or my beliefs. There are a number of laws which sneak in each year without much notice by the general public.
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (Elma @ 12th Oct 2011, 05:05am) *
Wonderful story Tomi, and I'm hoping like you for a happy ending. Please let us know tomorrow if she has recovered enough to move with her mate who as Angel says is her partner for life.

Back on topic after this wink.gif
This morning they were still at the same place and she was moving around a bit more and seemed to be feeding (the river is teeming with fish from minnows to trout and eels, cray fish and all sorts; and with salmon during their trip back in the spawning season).
When I returned to the same spot just before noon they had moved about 150 meters down stream and she seemed fairly recovered, so I'm pleased to relate a happy ending to this tale.

That said; and back on topic, religion and politics have been bedfellows since Adam was a lad and the only way that these two can be separated is to have a government made up of card-carrying atheists but that's been tried before and didn't stand the test of time. rolleyes.gif

It wont be long now till we celebrate the occasion of one catholic who really tried to change things in the Houses of Parliament: He who was reputed to be the only man to enter said Houses with honest intention. laugh.gif
wee davy
Guido was fitted up, and misunderstood, THEE. I've told ye before wink.gif laugh.gif
Glasgow Girl
QUOTE (Dylan @ 11th Oct 2011, 11:40am) *
I have an open mind and am prepared to accept your statement

So name one other Denomination, in the whole world , that has a track record which come anywhere close to the RC Church and I will fight your corner.

The scourge of sexual abuse has no denominational boundaries.

In the 1950's and 1960's it is recognised that around 4 per cent of Catholic clergy were sexual abusers which was about the same per centage among clergy of other denominations and less than it was in the general population of males, which was 8 per cent.

Teachers - It has been reported that one in four girls and one in six boys are sexually abused by a teacher by age 18. A 1991 study revealed that 17.7 per cent of males who graduated from high school and 82.2 per cent of females reported sexual harrassment by staff during their years in school. 13.5 per cent said they had full sexual intercourse with their teacher.

If you feel like doing more research in order to decide which corner you want to fight in try googling Boy Scout percentages on the same subject.

By submitting these facts I am in no way making excuses for the atrocities carried out by anybody on an innocent child.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.