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mitchell
Now this is interesting, imposing tough new prison terms.

Story from the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13796044
wee davy
GG I'm sure will take note!

Even MORE interesting when it is announced immediately the day after the UK Attorney General successfully prosecuted his first 'internet' offence. Have the floodgates opened, I wonder?
TeeHeeHee
A lot of the murder that gets threatened on the Internet is just to reputations ... see you Davy, Am gonnae murder you. tongue.gif biggrin.gif
Tommy Kennedy
I think the simplest/easiest/cheapest way to handle sectarianism at Glasgow football matches is to issue each fanatic hooligan a weapon of their choice with their ticket; then at the end of the match let them on to the pitch to fight it out –, then sell the corpses for dog food to defray expenses - the numbers would soon decrease.
bilbo.s
A radical approach not without merit. I fear it might be vetoed by the human rights lobby. When will they realise that this legislation is only supposed to apply to bona fide HUMANS ?
Jupiter
I think this will be a red hot potato for appeals under Article 10 which provides for freedom of expression subject to certain restrictions.
I can just envisage a whole section of thousands of fans at a football club giving it chants and verbal and a handful of police officers watching on.On the face of it is it really practical to enforce such a law?
Concerning the internet are ISPs going to be rolling over and giving out customers particulars to police for expressing opinions,no matter how unacceptable, and risking losing business?
Mathieson
While applying the new law might prove impractical in every given scenario there may be enough threat implied in the measures to eliminate the worst of excesses. We shall see.
Jupiter
I cannot imagine the police getting too excited about this new law.In my view they have more than adequate power vested in the common law Breach of the Peace which in the most serious cases can be prosecuted by way of indictment."Any person who causes annoyance and or conducts himself/herself in a disorderly manner commits a Breach of the Peace."
I do not recall recently (although Im not saying it hasnt happened) seeing any police officer going into a seated area in any stadium and arresting anyone for shouting sectarian/obscene/abusive language,probably because the officers have been replaced by stewards.This proposal must mean the re introduction of Police officers in the stadia to act as a deterrant....;and who will pay? It has to be the clubs.
It will be interesting to see what transpires as this looks as though it is getting an express shoo-in through Parliament.
Dunvegan
Soccer engenders sectarianism in Australia. Mainly between eastern European supporters of one denomination or another. However the division is not centered on religion, rather than ethnicity. The same soccer rioter shave managed to disrupt the tennis open in Melbourne. Action was taken in the tennis case to deny rioters access to the stadiums and ban all symbols of ethnicity, flags supporters banners etc. This behavior never ever occurs in Australian rule football where ethnic rivalries are subdued in the support of the clubs. As there is no ethnically or religious divisions inherent in the game there is never any violence. There have been several occasions when supporters of clubs have racially abused Aborigines; the clubs were given the responsibility of cleaning up their acts which they promptly did rather than face the ostracism resulting in such behavior. Put the onus on the clubs. If the abuse continues they play behind locked gates and forfeit the profits.
GG
I read a very interesting comment article on this subject last month in the Scotsman. Written by Michael Fry, it raises a number of issues which suggest that the new laws are both inappropriate and superfluous.

QUOTE
A totally unnecessary crackdown
By Michael Fry

New legislation on sectarianism smacks of a knee-jerk reaction to a diminishing problem

In November 2009, Brian Blair from Maryhill drove to Perth intent on robbery. He broke into a house outside the town and terrorised the couple living there, Annabelle Hutchison, 59, and Gordon Barnes, 57.

Blair threatened them with a hammer, tied them up and dragged them around their home. Annabelle was so distressed she thought she was going to have a heart attack, and Blair at least relented enough to give her some medication. To her partner he showed no such mercy: he tied a plastic bag over Gordon's head and dumped him in the River Almond. Lucky for him, Gordon did not drown but lived to see Blair tried, convicted and sent to prison for five years.

Five years may seem rather a lenient sentence for such horrific violence, but the sheriff took into account the "spark of humanity" that Blair had shown. These are matters on which reasonable men can differ and there is always a lively enough debate in Scotland on the severity of sentencing, with the just desire for retribution needing on sheer practical grounds to be balanced against the overstrained capacity of our prisons, the most crowded in western Europe.

So I wonder how, into that situation, we are to fit the decision by the Scottish cabinet yesterday to bring in legislation that would raise the maximum sentence for sectarian hate crime from six months to five years. ...

Read the full article here:
http://news.scotsman.com/religiousissuesin...sary.6774395.jp

GG.
Heather
I wonder how this new Law will work out if and when it's passed.

The five years in Prison is the maximum term and most offenders will probably get Community Service or six months in Prison, walking out after two months.

What annoys me about it is, we have thugs walking about armed with knives and nothing done about it until they stab someone to death.
When and what will our Government do to put a stop to these knife thugs.
bilbo.s
Another interesting point of view:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/be...m-research-data
fourbytwo
cool.gif Sorry to be a moaner, but, seems to me that such 'rushed legislation' is doomed from day one, as it has, and will not define what is and is not deemed 'sectarian'.
What we might deem sectarian, as reported outside Ibrox too frequently, is, I would suggest unfair at labelling Ibrox as in any way, the forerunner in this National problem.
The last Celtic match v Hearts and it was easy to hear some very 'biased and sectarian' songs from BOTH sets of fans, many, many of these chants are levelling bile and hatred against the British Government and the Queen, as well as the Pope and others......
So, what is sectarian....?
Is it only sectarian when the subject is religious, or should the label be also put against ancient and outdated songs from Eire, where the lyrics are against GB and the Queen.....?
To step back and smell what most of the politicians are shovelling, it becomes clearer that the Police will once again be given even more powers to determine what THEY THINK is criminal, and NOT actually providing Scotland with a clear picture of what is needed.....!
I realise that small steps to begin with are the way ahead....but I genuinely feel that no sooner has this new law been passed, then its many, many flaws will be exposed in test cases.....
Such a pity when Messrs Salmond and croanies are so desparate to prove that Scots Justice is as good, if not better than that available elsewhere......! wub.gif
Heather
I don't know if Religios bigotry still exists in some Companies but I know for a fact it did exist as I was turned down for a job in an office in the 1970s because of my Religion.

When I phoned the Job Centre and told the woman who sent me for the interview what had been said to me she was embarrassed and said I had all the Accounts experience the Company was looking for and she was sure I would get the job and apologised for what must have been a very upsetting experience.

Then she said there was a lot of questions she could ask me, but would be sacked if she asked my Religion.
Then in the background I heard another voice call out, " what were you thinking about sending someone with a name like hers to that place ". ohmy.gif

One of my brothers had a similar experience, but he had been warned about the Company before going for the interview. He was in his 20s at the time and when asked straight out what school he went to and what his Religion was he lied about his school and his Religion and got the job.
In a short time he was found out and the boss did everything to get try and get rid of him but as my brother said, he kept his head down and worked hard until he got another job else where.
angel
QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 18th Jun 2011, 10:39am) *

Bill,it would seem to me that , Steve Bruce obviously has'nt read the posts on the " Old Firm Thread " smile.gif
bilbo.s
Perhaps not. I wish we hadn't either. Some people on there are hardly representative of the general board membership, just as the bigots in Glasgow are a small, if vocal and visible, minority.
Guest
The posts seem very moderate on this forum.... even in the Old Firm Thread which is always going to be open to attracting some 'hysterical' individuals.
Dunvegan
QUOTE (GG @ 18th Jun 2011, 09:24pm) *
I read a very interesting comment article on this subject last month in the Scotsman. Written by Michael Fry, it raises a number of issues which suggest that the new laws are both inappropriate and superfluous.


Read the full article here:
http://news.scotsman.com/religiousissuesin...sary.6774395.jp

GG.

See what hate crimes in the U.S.A. will do to you in terms of sentencing.
Dunvegan
QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 19th Jun 2011, 03:15am) *
Perhaps not. I wish we hadn't either. Some people on there are hardly representative of the general board membership, just as the bigots in Glasgow are a small, if vocal and visible, minority.

Never read it until I read this post. I never will again. One of the worst offending bigots is offensive in every post he makes and that is just "the nature of the beast". I see nothing to be gained or any value to this forum by allowing the "same old, same old" a board to sound of their puerile prejudices and vexatious frustration.
auldbutcher
New sectarian laws what difference would they make, don't flash yer cross,jasus my wife gave me a celtic cross fer my 65th birthday as in the Celtic race or Celts if you like she is of Irish decadency me I'm a proud heilinman so we are Celts ,if for talking sake i went to an auld firm geme and had my Celtic cross which only has a lot of runes inscribed on it would i be up fer arrest,and would some one who waved an union jack and sang the national anthem according to his beliefs tae me he is a guy who would rather stay lets say doon in London and could walk by the big castle doon there and pay homage tae her maj every day tae his way o work.

Man I got nae axe tae grind wie him 'god luv him'' ,my thoughts on this kind of post are why in the first place are they posted, it only inspires more sectarian unrest and brings the bigots on BOTH sides oot o there holes tae unleash there bigoted credos ,me I have had my say on this subject christ what a snide wee nation we live in ,wance upon a time an 18 year auld guy wis conscripted intae the Brit Army he went wey a swagger, an why not he was a jock in his reasoning he came fey the best country in the world, he would show these English lads what it was tae be ah son o SCOTLAND my god now if this same lad joined the brit army he would not be so self assured ,what is happening to this country o oors damned if i know
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (auldbutcher @ 30th Jun 2011, 04:53pm) *
... she is of Irish decadency ...

I take it you meant decendantcy AB unsure.gif
Otherwise the rest of your post can be taken as read, I guess. rolleyes.gif laugh.gif
Dunvegan
QUOTE (Heather @ 19th Jun 2011, 12:43am) *
I don't know if Religios bigotry still exists in some Companies but I know for a fact it did exist as I was turned down for a job in an office in the 1970s because of my Religion.

When I phoned the Job Centre and told the woman who sent me for the interview what had been said to me she was embarrassed and said I had all the Accounts experience the Company was looking for and she was sure I would get the job and apologised for what must have been a very upsetting experience.

Then she said there was a lot of questions she could ask me, but would be sacked if she asked my Religion.
Then in the background I heard another voice call out, " what were you thinking about sending someone with a name like hers to that place ". ohmy.gif

One of my brothers had a similar experience, but he had been warned about the Company before going for the interview. He was in his 20s at the time and when asked straight out what school he went to and what his Religion was he lied about his school and his Religion and got the job.
In a short time he was found out and the boss did everything to get try and get rid of him but as my brother said, he kept his head down and worked hard until he got another job else where.

I being so long unemployed, living in the west of Scotland, a veritable storefront of bigotry, was taken to a job interview by a salesman at Fraser and Love's store in Paisley as he had been asked to bring along a friend to fill a vacancy. The supervisor politely asked my name education status and school. He then said "we will send for you and let you know when the position is available"
"Wont you need my address as well as my school to do that?" I replied. The friend who set me up with the interview was embarrassed to the extreme and incidentally was an "Orangeman" from a well known "Orange" family.
fourbytwo
cool.gif Already made comment on this, see 18th June, and sad to say its as if I had forecast the future.
All the lawyers and legal experts are already booking their expensive holidays, as they forsee a plethera of appeals against wrongful arrest etc, etc.
As stated before, it is noticeable that the only section of society NOT commenting upon these new Regulations, are the Police....as it so obviously gives them even more power to arrest and detain, and further reduce personal liberties......
I remain to be convinced otherwise......!
Crewsy Fixer
QUOTE (fourbytwo @ 1st Jul 2011, 10:49am) *
cool.gif Already made comment on this, see 18th June, and sad to say its as if I had forecast the future.
All the lawyers and legal experts are already booking their expensive holidays, as they forsee a plethera of appeals against wrongful arrest etc, etc.
As stated before, it is noticeable that the only section of society NOT commenting upon these new Regulations, are the Police....as it so obviously gives them even more power to arrest and detain, and further reduce personal liberties......
I remain to be convinced otherwise......!


Therein lies the truth.

Go about Glasgow in your daily business and look, actively, for all this bigotry and sectarianism, I guarantee you will have to search far and wide, you will find it but will you find enough to warrant legislation?. I believe that it will all lead to more and more laws. And god knows what as a result, if you tolerate this, then your children will be next.
mitchell
I see that the silly season gets underway in Glasgow.
The Orange walk. rolleyes.gif
The police will quite rightly be serious on Booze and bigotry.
Report here from the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-13993505
Dunvegan
The race relations act has been in force since the 1960s. As Rangers. F.C.
(love that acronym) were still denying Catholics the right to play for their club, for whatever reason were exempted by this law which would have not been tolerated In England. I cant help feeling that as a Catholic I was made to endure humiliation at the hands of "Scottish" bigots. I am assured by many good people here that this is no longer the case. If it is no longer the case why is there such a proposal to ban sectarianism in public. My best friend and boozing buddy before leaving Scotland was an "orangeman" with King Billy , no surrender and orange lilies tattooed along his arms. he was a hard man and wee were separated by his terms in "Peterhied". He was always at pains to assure me that his affiliations meant nothing to him and should never interfere with our friendship. He was not the only "card carrying Orangeman" I am in debt to. So I can safely say I am not bigoted towards Protestants as a whole, however, that bigotry existed then and I am not of the opinion that this has changed in my absence. Judging by some of the provocative rantings on this forum, I am proved not wrong.
Dave Grieve
My wife is a practising Roman Catholic, who was born on the 12 of July.
Since we where married (42 years) she has only ever had one birthday party on the day where non family members were invited, not because of any bigtory on our part concerning the 12th celebrations as we both come from mixed families. (my wife has a Rangers supporting brother. I have a Rangers supporting brother)(My wifes mother was Catholic , father Protestant. My mother Catholic father Protestant)
Even here in South Africa, Scots people that we thought we knew, people we met on a daily basis and considered good friends. (men, woman and children) those same people would display their religious intolerances that i consider verges on hatred for all things catholic.
The bile and abuse that comes out of their mouths when they work themselves up into a tribal frenzy (only discription for it) is complety un-acceptable.
I would support any attempt to stamp it out on both sides of the divide
GG
QUOTE (Dunvegan @ 2nd Jul 2011, 03:44am) *
... Judging by some of the provocative rantings on this forum, I am proved not wrong.

Dunvegan, or anyone else, please make sure that if you read any such provocative rantings on this forum, you use the report button to bring them to my attention.

GG.
benny
QUOTE (Dunvegan @ 2nd Jul 2011, 04:44am) *
The race relations act has been in force since the 1960s. As Rangers. F.C.
(love that acronym) were still denying Catholics the right to play for their club, for whatever reason were exempted by this law which would have not been tolerated In England. . . . .

The Race Relations Act had nothing to do with religon, so I don't see how Rangers could have claimed exemption under it. It was designed to prevent discrimination on grounds of race, not on any other grounds.

Funnily enough, I too have experienced discrimination when applying for work, and I'm not a Catholic, although my name - O'Hara - may have fooled them. First of all there was the firm (masonic) handshake on introduction, which of course I didn't return, not being of the Brotherhood. Then, a quick look at my school, which must have thrown them - no a "Saint" in sight. This may have been counteracted by the fact that I had an "O" level in Latin, because ah got another firm handshake on leavin - jist tae gie me a second chance tae pass the secret grip. Ah failed miserably again though, and didnae get the job. biggrin.gif
wombat
rolleyes.gif care tae elaborate on the "secret grip" benny?

and dont tell me its a secret biggrin.gif
mitchell
32 arrested for Sectarian offences.
Story from the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-13993505


mitchell
QUOTE (GG @ 2nd Jul 2011, 01:20pm) *
Dunvegan, or anyone else, please make sure that if you read any such provocative rantings on this forum, you use the report button to bring them to my attention.

GG.

Totally agree with you on this as I cant see any rantings on this thread.
only from the mentioned posters post earlier.
benny
QUOTE (wombat @ 2nd Jul 2011, 11:11pm) *
rolleyes.gif care tae elaborate on the "secret grip" benny?

and dont tell me its a secret biggrin.gif

Aye, nae bother, Wombat.

Ye put yer pinkie in, ye put yer pinkie out,
Ye take yer index finger, an ye shoogle it about,
Ye ask, "How auld's yer granny?", an ye gie yer haun a flip,
An that's the masonci grip. Oy! biggrin.gif
wombat
laugh.gif
wombat


rolleyes.gif i feel like dancing after your post benny ,hope no one's offended by my "green "shoes?
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (benny @ 2nd Jul 2011, 11:28pm) *
Aye, nae bother, Wombat.

Ye put yer pinkie in, ye put yer pinkie out,
Ye take yer index finger, an ye shoogle it about,
Ye ask, "How auld's yer granny?", an ye gie yer haun a flip,
An that's the masonci grip. Oy!

The Compass and Square - tools that I've used in my childhood, through my aircraft career and in my cellar in retirement.
In '64 I saw a Masonic ring in the window of a Blackpool jeweler and knew I must have it. It was, to me, sheer beauty; a compass and square in gold on a deep blue background. When I went in to look closer at it I found it was a reversible signet ring; the stone was on a pivot, so I was sold ... and bought the ring and had my initial signature inscribed on the reverse but rarely showed that side.
I shared a room in Blackpool with a Glasgow lad who was at that time assistant manager in the Foxhall Hotel. He now and again asked me; to my mind, silly questions - one of which was how auld's yer granny?
On answering Och, jesus, she's been deid fur dunkies years he flew across the room and dived on me bringing me from the bed to the floor under a rain of blows wi' me thinking he'd flipped his bliddy lid. By the time I'd got him quietened down he was callin' me an imposter (I hadn't given the ring a thought).
But I had a lot of bad luck with the ring; the pivot kept breakin' off (I wore it all the time; even to work) and I was always paying to have it repaired. At Clydebridge Steel Works I gave it; in bits, to a workmate, showing him the signature on the reverse joking that he'd have to change his name. He said he'd wear it right side up because he was no imposter.
I wished him luck anyway.
I'd loved to have kept that ring purely because of the insignia with the compass and square but the number of times I've nearly lost fingers because of rings (I used to wear 2 on each hand ; now none rolleyes.gif ) it's probably just as well I gave it away.

* when he asked how auld's yer granny? I might have given him ma maw's co-op divi number if I'd known what he was after. tongue.gif laugh.gif
GG
QUOTE (mitchell @ 2nd Jul 2011, 10:46pm) *
32 arrested for Sectarian offences.
Story from the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-13993505

No, mitchell, if you read the report, it says: "... six of these [32 arrests were] for sectarian offences". Assuming all six 'offences' result in convictions in a court of law, then that is six people out of 8,000 ... less than 0.1%.

GG.
mitchell
Maybe so GG, but those identified at committing the offences were among the followers.
So what did the other 26 get lifted for?
Dunvegan
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 3rd Jul 2011, 10:34am) *
The Compass and Square - tools that I've used in my childhood, through my aircraft career and in my cellar in retirement.
In '64 I saw a Masonic ring in the window of a Blackpool jeweler and knew I must have it. It was, to me, sheer beauty; a compass and square in gold on a deep blue background. When I went in to look closer at it I found it was a reversible signet ring; the stone was on a pivot, so I was sold ... and bought the ring and had my initial signature inscribed on the reverse but rarely showed that side.
I shared a room in Blackpool with a Glasgow lad who was at that time assistant manager in the Foxhall Hotel. He now and again asked me; to my mind, silly questions - one of which was how auld's yer granny?
On answering Och, jesus, she's been deid fur dunkies years he flew across the room and dived on me bringing me from the bed to the floor under a rain of blows wi' me thinking he'd flipped his bliddy lid. By the time I'd got him quietened down he was callin' me an imposter (I hadn't given the ring a thought).
But I had a lot of bad luck with the ring; the pivot kept breakin' off (I wore it all the time; even to work) and I was always paying to have it repaired. At Clydebridge Steel Works I gave it; in bits, to a workmate, showing him the signature on the reverse joking that he'd have to change his name. He said he'd wear it right side up because he was no imposter.
I wished him luck anyway.
I'd loved to have kept that ring purely because of the insignia with the compass and square but the number of times I've nearly lost fingers because of rings (I used to wear 2 on each hand ; now none rolleyes.gif ) it's probably just as well I gave it away.

* when he asked how auld's yer granny? I might have given him ma maw's co-op divi number if I'd known what he was after. tongue.gif laugh.gif

'Never be out of a job in Scotland wearing a "grippers" ring TH!!!!
GG
QUOTE (mitchell @ 3rd Jul 2011, 12:58am) *
Maybe so GG, but those identified at committing the offences were among the followers.
So what did the other 26 get lifted for?

I think we should await a full report from Strathclyde Police as to the nature of the alleged offences; however, looks like the work done by the Orange Lodge and Glasgow City Council has been very worthwhile.

GG.
mitchell
Yes but at a cost to the taxpayer.

Jupiter
THH,the type of ring you are referring to is commonly known as a swivel ring and is commonplace within the craft.The grip which has been parodied is very discreet and I would defy anyone who is not in the craft to say they recognise it.I make no secret of being a Mason and have been since 1975.Non sectarian and charitable organisation.Due to my views changing since my initiation I have not been an attender at Lodge meetings for many a year but I live by the principles of Freemasonery.
Ive had many a chuckle over the years and cant begin to describe some of the handshakes and "knowing looks."
Quite simply,for the uninitiateds' information a member of the craft can ask someone if he is a brother by giving him a challenge when meeting simply by giving him "the slip", so dont be fooled if you find yourself in a vice like grip getting your knuckles cracked.......it just doesnt happen.
Other innoccuous questions might follow but in reality a mason will know when he is in anothers company very quickly.
I hope this wee bit of Sunday morning trivia has been interesting.
On a more serious note Id like to point out that there is a world of difference between Freemasonry and any other Loyalist/Republican/"religious" organisations which have a narrower overall view and concepts. rolleyes.gif
Any man can be a Freemason,all you have to do is ask.
benny
As a simple cowan, Joop, ah'd like tae point out that, while there might be a world of difference between Freemasonry and such other organisations as you mentioned, there isn't always a world of difference between Freemasons and the members of such organisations. Ah've known some very bigoted Freemasons - despite the high falutin principles of the craft, On the other hand, ah've also known some very nice guys who were Freemasons. so ah'm no decryin Freemasonry as an institution, only pointin oot that there are baddies as well as goodies within the ranks.
Jupiter
Benny,Ive no doubt what you say is true as there is a big cross section of people in it.
There are principles which I try to adhere to but again you are talking from personal experience and I have absolutely no reason disbelieve you.
Joop
rolleyes.gif
fourbytwo
Never did me any good.....and I always show the '2 and a half' to anyone interested....
(have a close look at my avatar)... laugh.gif
benny
Ah thought that wis the Red Hand Of Ulster wi a coupla fingers missin frae a premature bomb explosion. biggrin.gif
Dunvegan
QUOTE (Jupiter @ 3rd Jul 2011, 02:24pm) *
THH,the type of ring you are referring to is commonly known as a swivel ring and is commonplace within the craft.The grip which has been parodied is very discreet and I would defy anyone who is not in the craft to say they recognise it.I make no secret of being a Mason and have been since 1975.Non sectarian and charitable organisation.Due to my views changing since my initiation I have not been an attender at Lodge meetings for many a year but I live by the principles of Freemasonery.
Ive had many a chuckle over the years and cant begin to describe some of the handshakes and "knowing looks."
Quite simply,for the uninitiateds' information a member of the craft can ask someone if he is a brother by giving him a challenge when meeting simply by giving him "the slip", so dont be fooled if you find yourself in a vice like grip getting your knuckles cracked.......it just doesnt happen.
Other innoccuous questions might follow but in reality a mason will know when he is in anothers company very quickly.
I hope this wee bit of Sunday morning trivia has been interesting.
On a more serious note Id like to point out that there is a world of difference between Freemasonry and any other Loyalist/Republican/"religious" organisations which have a narrower overall view and concepts. rolleyes.gif
Any man can be a Freemason,all you have to do is ask.

The "grip" is not discreet. I could like many others duplicate it, have done so with credibility, have seen crafters do it openly when drunk and there is more literature on the "grippers" art, craft, practice, pagan inspired ritual, whatever nonclementure is used to define it, that renders the horrendous penalties for disclosure nul and void.
Jupiter
Dunvegan have to disagree with you on this one.I dont think I ever referred to,"the grip" but Ill stand corrected and the challenge is,if given as taught very discreet.I wonder what happened after you successfully gave this"Grip" to a Freemason.Did you follow up?I wonder why you ,"have done so with credibility,"if you are not a fellow?
I have lost count of the men who have lost credibility by trying to give this,"Grip."or otherwise tried to ingratiate themselves whilst masquerading as a fellow.
rolleyes.gif
tamhickey
I also had an interview where a Masonic handshake was proffered. I was only 18 and had no clue as to what was going on; I thought the interviewer was gay. He may or may not have been, but he was a bigot. Unless you conformed to this maniacal view then you were yesterday's man. I never got a letter from him to say sorry, you didn't get the job, but once I ascribed the details of this weird interview to friends and family, the general feeling was that any reply would be lost in the post forever.
The entire idea of masonic membership becomes weird when you consider who they attract. Nutters, Policemen, Judges and the Royals.
When you have people from the establishjment extolling their virtues then you have to wonder who they represent, certainly not the working class, even though they draw many people from us all. I regard it as as bad as smoking, very tough to give up, but filling your body with crap, only difference is it's in your head.
I think all walks should stop, and that includes Orange and Republican ones. Who needs it? We're Glaswegians, not people fighting/celebrating a 300 year war.
Personally, I think it's time we all grew up and ought to look after one another.
I don't see the same level of discrimination nowadays, and my belief is that as a society, we are way past the nonsense that went before.
My wish is for everyone to get on. We're all Jock Tamson's bairn.
Jupiter
Tam how did you know you had been given a Masonic handshake?
Masons principles include promoting charity in the community,moral steadfastness and an oath to uphold the law of the land and a belief in a Supreme being.
I have no doubt if you checked a Lodge Almoners ledger you would be utterly suprised at who benefits from Masonic help,irrespective of race creed or colour but then again you would never be aware of this
because it isnt advertised or shouted about.
Re your comment about nutters et al I have no doubt on that score there are nutters in the Masons as well as policemen and Judges.
One thing you can be certain about Tam.The new laws will have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on how Freemasons conduct their affairs in Scotland.
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