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TeeHeeHee
What do coffee beans, torpedoes, surgical scalpels, arches, and observatories all have in common? Were Leonardo Da Vinci’s flight ideas original? Who devised the casing for pill capsules and where did Fibonacci learn to flex his mathematical fingers?

All these answers can be found in "1001 Inventions: Muslim Heritage in Our World"
A golden age of civilization, from 600 to 1600 CE, where medieval Muslims were trailblazers in fields as diverse as medicine and mechanics, cartography and chemistry, education and engineering, architecture and astronomy. No area was too obscure to miss the scrutiny of enquiry backed up by rigid scientific experimentation.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZDe9DCx7Wk

http://www.1001inventions.com/
TeeHeeHee
Got the time Jamal?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5otopCud3QY
benny
Very Harry Potterish, THH, but interesting. It might give some food for thought tae oor "Muslims are savages" brethren.
TeeHeeHee
The films are for the younger audience Benny. Be nice to see a balance with young Muslims too.
Dunvegan
The apparent efforts to restore the Caliphate as existed in pre "Reconquista " Europe on behalf of the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and various other manic terrorists, has nothing to do with religion. During the time of the Caliphate Jews were far safer under it than under any Christian regime. It was probably the most tolerant society in the world up to that time. It was very advanced in mathematics and science and regarded the medical practices in the West with horror. Our circumstances today are quite different. We have seen and been attacked by extremists, terrorists, for insults that never existed and assaults that never occurred. We in the West are forced to take drastic action to preserve our lives and culture from plane bombers, transport bombers, school bus bombers and psychopaths who delight in beheading innocents on television. Some call them freedom fighters. Civilized and cultured they are not.
wee davy
QUOTE
Jews were far safer under it than under any Christian regime


Although very accurate, I wonder where it REALLY all went so wrong, Dunvegan.

I know many people will point to the Crusades.
But there were problems before that.

Maybe if we could pinpoint the root cause - we might be able to improve things - ALL of us together.

Certainly, this initiative (which was British led and funded in the beginning, with taxpayers money), now can only do good I feel. I'm just not so sure about the claim Muslims were the first to invent a form of manned flight before the Wright brothers LOL I think many can allude to this one.

The fact it appears to be essentially funded by a big Saudi Arabian 'mucker' of Prince Charles smacks of a firm attempt to rewrite history - but I'll reserve my own judgement.
TeeHeeHee
Where do you get your information that the Crusades were British led, Davy?

The Arabic word for the invading Crusaders was the Franj which described the French in what the Arab historians and chroniclers referred to as the Frankish Wars during the period that we refer to as the Crusades.
QUOTE
Belligerents

Christendom:


Holy Roman Empire

Genoa
Lower Lorraine
County of Toulouse
Marquisate of Provence

Kingdom of France

Blois
Boulogne
Flanders
Le Puy-en-Velay
Vermandois

Kingdom of England

Normandy

Duchy of Apulia

Taranto

Byzantine Empire
Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia
----------------------------------
Saracen:

Great Seljuq Empire
Danishmends
Fatimids
Almoravids

QUOTE
Commanders and leaders
Godfrey of Bouillon

Raymond IV
Stephen II
Baldwin of Boulogne
Eustace III of Boulogne
Robert II of Flanders
Adhemar of Le Puy
Hugh of Vermandois
Robert II of Normandy
Bohemond of Taranto
Tancred of Taranto
Alexios I Komnenos
Tatikios
Manuel Boutoumites
Guglielmo Embriaco
Constantine I
wee davy
Read my post again T - Iwasn't saying the crusades were british led - I was on about the substance of YOUR NEW TOPIC lol
For 'this initiative' read 1001 Dalmations or whitever its called tongue.gif

Youve been looking at too many Iranian sports teams LOL

(Please excuse my sentence building - I'll get it write one of these days wink.gif )
TeeHeeHee
Nah Nahnee Nahna tongue.gif laugh.gif
wee davy
Not having one of me better days - so stop mocking the afflicted smile.gif tongue.gif
TeeHeeHee
Wood Eye? tongue.gif biggrin.gif
wee davy
No,... its GLASS lol
TeeHeeHee
Dae you think so? tongue.gif

Click to view attachment
wee davy
Ahh meant MINE is lol Och man - am away fer me tea wink.gif laugh.gif
( wink.gif )

C yoos lata
TeeHeeHee
Guten Appetit, biggrin.gif
wee davy
Lecker Smecker!

Didn't take too long - was off me food earlier - but enjoyed that venison burger
angel
Although very accurate, I wonder where it REALLY all went so wrong, Dunvegan

Davy ,it all began when the christians decided to rid Spain of a very peaceful and religiously tolerant society as dunvegan stated ," Namely the Moors " Their religion was Islam, they had ruled Spain for 800yrs or so
and most of the spanish people in Southern Spain had already converted to Islam at their own choice .
However the Vatican decided to get rid of the Moors which of course they did at a terrible cost to the spanish and I believe this was the start of the " Inquistion "... ...... I am hardly a scholar on this subject but it is how I understand this dreadful time in history .



Rab-oldname
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 6th Jun 2011, 11:48pm) *

Seen wan watch - you've seen Jamal! laugh.gif
wee davy
Thank you for refreshing my memory, angel.
(I wasn't there, you understand ohmy.gif )

The Vatican certainly had more than a bit part'' in what you describe. However (and I am not attempting to excuse such behaviour), I also believe it takes '2 to tango'.

My question was more of a rhetorical one.
What caused the schism in the first place, at that time?
To all intents and purposes, there appears to be 'moor' to it, if you ask me.
The Jews, for example, have been persecuted by virtually EVERY society at some point or another (including England, at the same period we are looking at), and I am pretty sure it wasn't all 'sugar & spice' as has been painted, in many scholarly history books, as we are led to believe.

No,... I suppose what I'm really asking - is what really 'lit the blue touch paper', back then. If we could answer THAT one - we might be on our way to reconciling our differences.

Just a thought provoker wink.gif
Rab-oldname
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 7th Jun 2011, 06:37pm) *
Guten Appetit, biggrin.gif


Courtesy of the Great SoupChef - Godfrey of Bouillon
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE
... it all began when the christians decided to rid Spain of a very peaceful and religiously tolerant society


Pope Urban II, was yer man there Angel.
It wasn't so long ago that the Christians wanted to re-name the stars; which bear many Arabic names, and change the constellations to grace the Bible characters and stories.
Wonder what name they would have given to old Beetlejuice (Betelgeuze - The House of the Giant) in Orion.

Islamic Celestial Globe, 1630 A.D, showing Orion ...

Click to view attachment


... This brass globe served both as a map of the heavens, as viewed from outside the starry sphere, and as a precision tool for making astronomical calculations. Engraved on its surface are various coordinate lines, constellation figures, and Arabic inscriptions. The stars are made of embedded bits of silver. The globe is hollow and was cast in one seamless piece. It was originally set in a cradle of rings, which depicted the horizon and other astronomical circles.

The Muslims might have been responsible in a round about way for giving us the likes of the "Orange Walk" since they did give the world it's first Military Marching Bands ...

Mehter March

Click to view attachment


But they gave us a few other things too ...

From coffee to cheques and the three-course meal, the Muslim world has given us many innovations that we take for granted in daily life.

As a new exhibition opens, Paul Vallely nominates 20 of the most influential- and identifies the men of genius behind them Published: 11 March 2006
1) Coffee


The story goes that an Arab named Khalid was tending his goats in the Kaffa region of southern Ethiopia, when he noticed his animals became livelier after eating a certain berry. He boiled the berries to make the first coffee. Certainly the first record of the drink is of beans exported from Ethiopia to Yemen where Sufis drank it to stay awake all night to pray on special occasions. By the late 15th century it had arrived in Mecca and Turkey from where it made its way to Venice in 1645. It was brought to England in 1650 by a Turk named Pasqua Rosee who opened the first coffee house in Lombard Street in the City of London.

The Arabic qahwa became the Turkish kahve then the Italian caffé and then English coffee.

2) Pin-Hole Camera

The ancient Greeks thought our eyes emitted rays, like a laser, which enabled us to see. The first person to realise that light enters the eye, rather than leaving it, was the 10th-century Muslim mathematician, astronomer and physicist Ibn al-Haitham. He invented the first pin-hole camera after noticing the way light came through a hole in window shutters. The smaller the hole, the better the picture, he worked out, and set up the first Camera Obscura (from the Arab word qamara for a dark or private room). He is also credited with being the first man to shift physics from a philosophical activity to an experimental one.

3) Chess

A form of chess was played in ancient India but the game was developed into the form we know it today in Persia. From there it spread westward to Europe - where it was introduced by the Moors in Spain in the 10th century - and eastward as far as Japan. The word rook comes from the Persian rukh, which means chariot.

4) Parachute


A thousand years before the Wright brothers a Muslim poet, astronomer, musician and engineer named Abbas ibn Firnas made several attempts to construct a flying machine. In 852 he jumped from the minaret of the Grand Mosque in Cordoba using a loose cloak stiffened with wooden struts. He hoped to glide like a bird. He didn't. But the cloak slowed his fall, creating what is thought to be the first parachute, and leaving him with only minor injuries. In 875, aged 70, having perfected a machine of silk and eagles' feathers he tried again, jumping from a mountain. He flew to a significant height and stayed aloft for ten minutes but crashed on landing - concluding, correctly, that it was because he had not given his device a tail so it would stall on landing.

Baghdad international airport and a crater on the Moon are named after him.

5) Shampoo

Washing and bathing are religious requirements for Muslims, which is perhaps why they perfected the recipe for soap which we still use today. The ancient Egyptians had soap of a kind, as did the Romans who used it more as a pomade. But it was the Arabs who combined vegetable oils with sodium hydroxide and aromatics such as thyme oil. One of the Crusaders' most striking characteristics, to Arab nostrils, was that they did not wash. Shampoo was introduced to England by a Muslim who opened Mahomed's Indian Vapour Baths on Brighton seafront in 1759 and was appointed Shampooing Surgeon to Kings George IV and William IV.

6) Refinement

Distillation, the means of separating liquids through differences in their boiling points, was invented around the year 800 by Islam's foremost scientist, Jabir ibn Hayyan, who transformed alchemy into chemistry, inventing many of the basic processes and apparatus still in use today - liquefaction, crystallisation, distillation, purification, oxidisation, evaporation and filtration. As well as discovering sulphuric and nitric acid, he invented the alembic still, giving the world intense rosewater and other perfumes and alcoholic spirits (although drinking them is haram, or forbidden, in Islam). Ibn Hayyan emphasised systematic experimentation and was the founder of modern chemistry.

7) Shaft

The crank-shaft is a device which translates rotary into linear motion and is central to much of the machinery in the modern world, not least the internal combustion engine. One of the most important mechanical inventions in the history of humankind, it was created by an ingenious Muslim engineer called al-Jazari to raise water for irrigation. His 1206 Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Mechanical Devices shows he also invented or refined the use of valves and pistons, devised some of the first mechanical clocks driven by water and weights, and was the father of robotics. Among his 50 other inventions was the combination lock.

8) Metal Armor

Quilting is a method of sewing or tying two layers of cloth with a layer of insulating material in between. It is not clear whether it was invented in the Muslim world or whether it was imported there from India or China. But it certainly came to the West via the Crusaders. They saw it used by Saracen warriors, who wore straw-filled quilted canvas shirts instead of armour. As well as a form of protection, it proved an effective guard against the chafing of the Crusaders' metal armour and was an effective form of insulation - so much so that it became a cottage industry back home in colder climates such as Britain and Holland.

9) Pointed Arch

The pointed arch so characteristic of Europe's Gothic cathedrals was an invention borrowed from Islamic architecture. It was much stronger than the rounded arch used by the Romans and Normans, thus allowing the building of bigger, higher, more complex and grander buildings. Other borrowings from Muslim genius included ribbed vaulting, rose windows and dome-building techniques. Europe's castles were also adapted to copy the Islamic world's - with arrow slits, battlements, a barbican and parapets. Square towers and keeps gave way to more easily defended round ones. Henry V's castle architect was a Muslim.

10) Surgery

Many modern surgical instruments are of exactly the same design as those devised in the 10th century by a Muslim surgeon called al-Zahrawi. His scalpels, bone saws, forceps, fine scissors for eye surgery and many of the 200 instruments he devised are recognisable to a modern surgeon. It was he who discovered that catgut used for internal stitches dissolves away naturally (a discovery he made when his monkey ate his lute strings) and that it can be also used to make medicine capsules. In the 13th century, another Muslim medic named Ibn Nafis described the circulation of the blood, 300 years before William Harvey discovered it. Muslims doctors also invented anaesthetics of opium and alcohol mixes and developed hollow needles to suck cataracts from eyes in a technique still used today.

11) Windmill

The windmill was invented in 634 for a Persian caliph and was used to grind corn and draw up water for irrigation. In the vast deserts of Arabia, when the seasonal streams ran dry, the only source of power was the wind which blew steadily from one direction for months. Mills had six or 12 sails covered in fabric or palm leaves. It was 500 years before the first windmill was seen in Europe.

12) Vaccination

The technique of inoculation was not invented by Jenner and Pasteur but was devised in the Muslim world and brought to Europe from Turkey by the wife of the English ambassador to Istanbul in 1724. Children in Turkey were vaccinated with cowpox to fight the deadly smallpox at least 50 years before the West discovered it.

13) Fountain Pen

The fountain pen was invented for the Sultan of Egypt in 953 after he demanded a pen which would not stain his hands or clothes. It held ink in a reservoir and, as with modern pens, fed ink to the nib by a combination of gravity and capillary action.

14) Numerical Numbering

The system of numbering in use all round the world is probably Indian in origin but the style of the numerals is Arabic and first appears in print in the work of the Muslim mathematicians al-Khwarizmi and al-Kindi around 825. Algebra was named after al-Khwarizmi's book, Al-Jabr wa-al-Muqabilah, much of whose contents are still in use. The work of Muslim maths scholars was imported into Europe 300 years later by the Italian mathematician Fibonacci. Algorithms and much of the theory of trigonometry came from the Muslim world. And Al-Kindi's discovery of frequency analysis rendered all the codes of the ancient world soluble and created the basis of modern cryptology.

15) Soup

Ali ibn Nafi, known by his nickname of Ziryab (Blackbird) came from Iraq to Cordoba in the 9th century and brought with him the concept of the three-course meal - soup, followed by fish or meat, then fruit and nuts. He also introduced crystal glasses (which had been invented after experiments with rock crystal by Abbas ibn Firnas - see No 4).

16) Carpets

Carpets were regarded as part of Paradise by medieval Muslims, thanks to their advanced weaving techniques, new tinctures from Islamic chemistry and highly developed sense of pattern and arabesque which were the basis of Islam's non-representational art. In contrast, Europe's floors were distinctly earthly, not to say earthy, until Arabian and Persian carpets were introduced. In England, as Erasmus recorded, floors were "covered in rushes, occasionally renewed, but so imperfectly that the bottom layer is left undisturbed, sometimes for 20 years, harbouring expectoration, vomiting, the leakage of dogs and men, ale droppings, scraps of fish, and other abominations not fit to be mentioned". Carpets, unsurprisingly, caught on quickly.

17) Pay Cheques

The modern cheque comes from the Arabic saqq, a written vow to pay for goods when they were delivered, to avoid money having to be transported across dangerous terrain. In the 9th century, a Muslim businessman could cash a cheque in China drawn on his bank in Baghdad.

18) Earch is in sphere shape?

By the 9th century, many Muslim scholars took it for granted that the Earth was a sphere. The proof, said astronomer Ibn Hazm, "is that the Sun is always vertical to a particular spot on Earth". It was 500 years before that realisation dawned on Galileo. The calculations of Muslim astronomers were so accurate that in the 9th century they reckoned the Earth's circumference to be 40, 253.4km - less than 200km out. The scholar al-Idrisi took a globe depicting the world to the court of King Roger of Sicily in 1139.

19) Rocket and Torpedo

Though the Chinese invented saltpetre gunpowder, and used it in their fireworks, it was the Arabs who worked out that it could be purified using potassium nitrate for military use. Muslim incendiary devices terrified the Crusaders. By the 15th century they had invented both a rocket, which they called a "self-moving and combusting egg", and a torpedo - a self-propelled pear-shaped bomb with a spear at the front which impaled itself in enemy ships and then blew up.

20) Gardens

Medieval Europe had kitchen and herb gardens, but it was the Arabs who developed the idea of the garden as a place of beauty and meditation. The first royal pleasure gardens in Europe were opened in 11th-century Muslim Spain. Flowers which originated in Muslim gardens include the carnation and the tulip.
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (wee davy @ 7th Jun 2011, 10:47pm) *
The Jews, for example, have been persecuted by virtually EVERY society at some point or another (including England, at the same period we are looking at), and I am pretty sure it wasn't all 'sugar & spice' as has been painted, in many scholarly history books, as we are led to believe.


Next time you're on your travels Davy, see if you can get intae the catacombs of York Minster where a wall of hundreds of skulls was built from the Jews that were slaughtered in York before the Crusaders left to go to the Holy War.
They didn't trust the Jews to look after the money; which up until then had been their responsibility, when they were gone.
angel
Davy

No,... I suppose what I'm really asking - is what really 'lit the blue touch paper', back then. If we could answer THAT one - we might be on our way to reconciling our differences.

Just a thought provoker


I cannot answer your question because, it stands to reason that there is more than one question and therefore more than one answer also Davy during those times , the Vatican deemed that if you were not a Roman Catholic , then you were a Heretic and heresy was a crime against the church," so you were in big trouble "." a lot of scared and angry people."
and the corruption that went on in the church during those times also
created big problems amongst those people who had half a brain and could think for themselves, so Davy giving human nature what it is even today, I think it will remain.. ...........Never The Twain Shall Meet "'
but just maybe respect and recognition. We Hope smile.gif




angel



Thank you Tomi, enjoyed your post. biggrin.gif
wee davy
Me 2, angel,Tomi

However the parachute, is a bit flimsy, to say the least lol.

Its also easy to claim after the event - 'oh,... I know what went wrong... I needed a tail,... silly me' lol It was only because he was probably one of the first to actually SURVIVE such a foolish experiment laugh.gif

(The House of the Giant is obvious! GOLIATH wink.gif )
And for my NEXT trick - I will perform WITHOUT the aid of a safety net!

Nitol
TeeHeeHee
I think they recognised that Bet el Jeuse was a Big star Davy.
It Has also been interpreted as the House of the Twin with reference to either Castor or Pollox in the close constellation Gemini; Pollox I think but I'd have to check out my old astronomy books to see where I found that.

Compare the Sun in picture #3 to Sirius (the Dog Star) then Sirius to Aldebaran in pic #4 then Aldebaran to Beetljuice in picture #5 and you know how big he is.
There is a possibility that he has already gone supernova but we might have to wait about another 4 or 5 hundred years before we see the light reachin' us wink.gif biggrin.gif

Click to view attachment


Click on Full Size (+) for a laugh
Dunvegan
QUOTE (angel @ 8th Jun 2011, 07:50am) *
Although very accurate, I wonder where it REALLY all went so wrong, Dunvegan

Davy ,it all began when the Christians decided to rid Spain of a very peaceful and religiously tolerant society as dunvegan stated ," Namely the Moors " Their religion was Islam, they had ruled Spain for 800yrs or so
and most of the Spanish people in Southern Spain had already converted to Islam at their own choice .
However the Vatican decided to get rid of the Moors which of course they did at a terrible cost to the spanish and I believe this was the start of the " Inquistion "... ...... I am hardly a scholar on this subject but it is how I understand this dreadful time in history .

The Inquisition was widespread throughout Europe. The reputation of the Spanish inquisition gained notoriety through the Protestant English and Dutch printing presses of the 17Th century, the first instance of print propaganda, who were at constant war with Spain. Records kept to this day show that only 1300 or so people were put to death by the Spanish inquisition. Far less than Episcopalians and catholics put to death by the covenanters in Scotland. The "Reconquista" had less to do with Rome than nationalism and land aquisition.
Dunvegan
QUOTE (wee davy @ 7th Jun 2011, 09:38pm) *
Although very accurate, I wonder where it REALLY all went so wrong, Dunvegan.

I know many people will point to the Crusades.
But there were problems before that.

Maybe if we could pinpoint the root cause - we might be able to improve things - ALL of us together.

Certainly, this initiative (which was British led and funded in the beginning, with taxpayers money), now can only do good I feel. I'm just not so sure about the claim Muslims were the first to invent a form of manned flight before the Wright brothers LOL I think many can allude to this one.

The fact it appears to be essentially funded by a big Saudi Arabian 'mucker' of Prince Charles smacks of a firm attempt to rewrite history - but I'll reserve my own judgement.

Montgoflier brothers in France, gave their name to balloons, were credited to be the first to leave terra firma, in silk covered hot air balloons. There is also evidence of Japanese going aloft in giant kites held by hundereds of helpers; Re Minamoto-no-Tametomo, and there are other instances of man sized kites being employed.
Ibn Bhattuta
Whilst there is a long and great list of achievements from that part of the world, I think it is completely wrong to link these with Islam. As in the West, human understanding advanced, despite the prevailing religious doctrine of the time and place.

How many of the advances listed would have happened without Islam?
My guess is all of them.

I also think that Arabic, Turkish, Persian and every other Middle Eastern civilisation would have been much better off without religion.

What was the object of worship when fire was tamed or the wheel invented? Does the greatness of fire mean that the primitive gods of that time have any worth? Roman civilisation was indeed great, but their gods were junk. Which is why their ideas like indoor plumbing and roads persist but Jupiter et al are now just a historic curiosity. Allah and the Abrahamic god (if they are not the same character) are destined to go the same way as Jupiter but things like gene therapy will persist.

Superstition and the dead weight of magical thinkers always attempt to tack themselves onto the efforts of those who actually did something useful.
angel
QUOTE (Dunvegan @ 10th Jun 2011, 02:39am) *
The Inquisition was widespread throughout Europe. The reputation of the Spanish inquisition gained notoriety through the Protestant English and Dutch printing presses of the 17Th century, the first instance of print propaganda, who were at constant war with Spain. Records kept to this day show that only 1300 or so people were put to death by the Spanish inquisition. Far less than Episcopalians and catholics put to death by the covenanters in Scotland. The "Reconquista" had less to do with Rome than nationalism and land aquisition.


Death tolls are given by historians such as Will Durant, who, in The Reformation (1957), cites Juan Antonio Llorente, General Secretary of the Inquisition from 1789 to 1801, as estimating that 31,912 people were executed from 1480-1808. He also cites Hernando de Pulgar, a secretary to Queen Isabella, as estimating 2,000 people were burned before 1490. Philip Schaff in his History of the Christian Church gave a number of 8,800 people burned in the 18 years of Torquemada. Matthew White, in reviewing these and other figures, gives a median number of deaths at 32,000, with around 9,000 under Torquemada [1]. R. J. Rummel describes similar figures as realistic, though he cites some historians who give figures of up to 135,000 people killed under Torquemada. This number includes 125,000 asserted to have died in prison due to poor conditions, leaving 10,000 sentenced to death. (Death rates in medieval and early modern prisons were generally very high, thanks in part to inadequate sanitary conditions and a poor diet.) There are no death toll figures available for the massacres of 1391, 1468 or 1473. These numbers will likely never be known.

The Inquisition was a Roman Catholic tribunal for discovery and punishment of heresy, which was marked by the severity of questioning and punishment and lack of rights afforded to the accused.

While many people associate the Inquisition with Spain and Portugal, it was actually instituted by Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) in Rome. A later pope, Pope Gregory IX established the Inquisition, in 1233, to combat the heresy of the Abilgenses, a religious sect in France. By 1255, the Inquisition was in full gear throughout Central and Western Europe; although it was never instituted in England or Scandinavia.
Dunvegan
QUOTE (angel @ 11th Jun 2011, 10:15am) *
Death tolls are given by historians such as Will Durant, who, in The Reformation (1957), cites Juan Antonio Llorente, General Secretary of the Inquisition from 1789 to 1801, as estimating that 31,912 people were executed from 1480-1808. He also cites Hernando de Pulgar, a secretary to Queen Isabella, as estimating 2,000 people were burned before 1490. Philip Schaff in his History of the Christian Church gave a number of 8,800 people burned in the 18 years of Torquemada. Matthew White, in reviewing these and other figures, gives a median number of deaths at 32,000, with around 9,000 under Torquemada [1]. R. J. Rummel describes similar figures as realistic, though he cites some historians who give figures of up to 135,000 people killed under Torquemada. This number includes 125,000 asserted to have died in prison due to poor conditions, leaving 10,000 sentenced to death. (Death rates in medieval and early modern prisons were generally very high, thanks in part to inadequate sanitary conditions and a poor diet.) There are no death toll figures available for the massacres of 1391, 1468 or 1473. These numbers will likely never be known.

The Inquisition was a Roman Catholic tribunal for discovery and punishment of heresy, which was marked by the severity of questioning and punishment and lack of rights afforded to the accused.

While many people associate the Inquisition with Spain and Portugal, it was actually instituted by Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) in Rome. A later pope, Pope Gregory IX established the Inquisition, in 1233, to combat the heresy of the Abilgenses, a religious sect in France. By 1255, the Inquisition was in full gear throughout Central and Western Europe; although it was never instituted in England or Scandinavia.

Depends on who writes the history. The church of Rome has long been villified by its multitude of breakaway sects and self styled saviors, try the ayatollas of Scotland, the Covenanters and see the gross deformity of the Gospel of Christ at the hands of murdering fanatics.
benny
QUOTE (Ibn Bhattuta @ 10th Jun 2011, 08:19am) *
. . .What was the object of worship when fire was tamed or the wheel invented? Does the greatness of fire mean that the primitive gods of that time have any worth? Roman civilisation was indeed great, but their gods were junk. Which is why their ideas like indoor plumbing and roads persist but Jupiter et al are now just a historic curiosity. Allah and the Abrahamic god (if they are not the same character) are destined to go the same way as Jupiter but things like gene therapy will persist.

Superstition and the dead weight of magical thinkers always attempt to tack themselves onto the efforts of those who actually did something useful.


If you believe that the idea of a God or gods is junk, as you obviously do, then you will believe that all gods are junk - Jupiter or Jehovah. Unfortunatley for your beliefs, junk or no junk, the gods show no sign of disappearing. There is no period in history and no nation on earth, as far as I know, where belief in this "superstition" has not existed, or does not still exist.

The "Science will triumph over Superstition" school of thought flies in the face of historical fact. If you choose to regard religion as mere superstition, then I believe that mere superstition will still be here when humankind has reverted to savagery through some natural or manmade disaster, and Science long forgotten.
TeeHeeHee
Ever the optimist, Benny.
(Outside, the strains of "Buffalo Soldier" seep through my flynet. biggrin.gif )
Tommy Kennedy
I think many highly intelligent people, even geniuses, - that are fanatically religious, prove your points Benny
benny
Naw, naw, Tommy, modesty forbids me frae acceptin the accolade "genius". Hauf daft, hauf baldy, fat bas**** 's done me most o ma life. biggrin.gif

Ah don't think ah'm bein pessimistic, THH. It's aw the wild-eyed visionaries who proclaim a new heaven an a new earth that are overly optimistic. In the early 20th century, it wis Socialist idealists who foresaw a future world free o war and poverty. Unhappily, despite their best efforts, that hisnae come, an ah don't think the propagandists of Science as a substitute for religion are gonne fare much better in the long run. If an asteroid hit the Earth the morra, an history had tae start aw ower again, ah'm pretty sure that Religion wid emerge before any Science worth the name.
There jist seems tae be an innate need wi most people for some form of religious belief, despite its unpopularity wi modern secularists.
TeeHeeHee
Well, Benny ... Apart from the 1st two lines ... I could agree with you all the way there. biggrin.gif
Heather
What about the unpopularity of modern secularists with those who have religious beliefs. tongue.gif laugh.gif
benny
Ah'm no takin sides, Heather - ah'm a devout fence sitter where religion an non-religion are concerned. biggrin.gif
Heather
Best thing to do Benny. smile.gif
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (benny @ 14th Jun 2011, 10:46pm) *
Ah'm no takin sides, Heather - ah'm a devout fence sitter where religion an non-religion are concerned. biggrin.gif

Am an Orthodox Coward ... tongue.gif
... so I'll probably change sides a few times. laugh.gif
Ibn Bhattuta
Humans live in an advanced civilisation, with all the fruits of knowledge that entails both scientific and non-scientific.

Mankind has a much more robust understanding of things like ethics and morality that are light years more advanced and better than anything that was codified in an age or relative ignorance. The fact remains, that Islam cannot be credited with the advances in understanding that came from Middle Eastern societies. Just as the relatively high number of Nobel prizes won by candidates from a Jewish background has nothing to with a God and everything to do earthly factors e.g. hard work, dedication, insight etc. All the wishful thinking in the world has not advanced human society one iota.

Yes, our scientific abilities and rich culture are fragile things in the face of barbaric times, but that makes them no less beautiful or useful.

I play the lottery, I know that winning would be sheer, dumb luck, no reason to it all, but I still enjoy a wee flutter on it. If I consulted a numerologist, then that would be out and out magical thinking. No matter how much faith I place in the numerologist’s pronouncements, no matter how much jargon and examples he uses, and no matter how many patterns I ‘see’, numerology is still junk and has done zero to increase my wealth, indeed, likely contributed in the opposite.

We all have the right to practice superstition but we are fortunate that we live in a society where its influence is peripheral. I have no doubt that a post-apocalyptic word would be driven by fear, ignorance and religion would flourish, but I find that no reason to embrace it today or give it false credit for things it has not helped create.
wee davy
QUOTE (benny @ 14th Jun 2011, 10:46pm) *
Ah'm no takin sides, Heather - ah'm a devout fence sitter where religion an non-religion are concerned. biggrin.gif


Dae thae spikes no get awfy uncomfortable though, benny? laugh.gif

## Awe ah kin say aboot this thread is - we ALL bring something to the party, and have something of value to contribute - and it is the respect which is shown here - be ye muslim, christian, or 'other'
- which is the very best of examples to demonstrate.

The self control and neighbourliness, is second to none here (with the exception ai WAN thread which ah think ye awe know which wan ah mean) - and long may it continue.

The world could do wie taking a wee leaf oot ai the GGDB book.

davy
(in a serious thoughtful mood this morning - nae telly in the corner yet, obviously lol)
Dunvegan
Unfortunately Davy respect is not a characteristic of the religious minded. Yeheshua ibn David has been used from the inception of his teachings to the status as a " State sanctioned religion" as a weapon against the "unbeliever". The rise of fanatical Islam has induced a hatred for all thing Arabic and subsequently Muslim in recent years. The present Pope of the Roman church has labeled Buddhism as "at best an auto erotic religion"; and that leaves little room for respect. His predecessor labeled it a godless religion and there for having no consequence. The history of Scotland is strewn with the corpses of those sacrificed to intolerance.
America the land of the free has some of the most repressive attitudes to the rights enshrined in the constitution when it comes to what can be taught in public schools that is not in alignment with right wing Christian sentiment.
There exists no religion on this earth that has not proselytized its cause by dungeon, fire and sword.
Chrissie
Dunvegan, I agree with what you say. However, most of us have moved beyond that. Radical Islam is where we were a couple of hundred years ago. Saudi Arabia, big friend of the western world, teaches hate in its schools. Hate for non-Islamic people. While it's been pointed out to the Saudis, no one has ever told them to stuff their oil until they make changes. (If we did China would step up to the plate and buy it anyway). It's also true that the 2 countries we invaded had nothing to do with the actual attack on 9/11. Still, Afghanistan gave OBL sanctuary and Sadam gave of vibes about WMD he didn't have.
angel
CAIRO — Osama bin Laden's longtime deputy Ayman al-Zawahri, a fiery ideologue who is known for his deep hatred of the West and helped plan the 9/11 attacks, has taken control of al Qaeda after the death last month of the terror network's founder, the group said Thursday.
Al-Zawahri, an Egyptian-born surgeon, has been credited with bringing tactical and organizational cunning to al Qaeda, which has found itself increasingly decentralized and prone to internal disputes following its expulsion from Afghanistan after the 2001 U.S. invasion.

The move also comes at a time the terror network is struggling for relevance as a wave of Arab uprisings has threatened to leave it marginalized.
.......................
This is just a snippet from the CTV news network today
does anyone have any comments on this.
TeeHeeHee
Ayman al-Zawahri ... Did I not see that stencilled on a drone's rocket somewhere? biggrin.gif rolleyes.gif
angel
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 16th Jun 2011, 09:37pm) *
Ayman al-Zawahri ... Did I not see that stencilled on a drone's rocket somewhere? biggrin.gif rolleyes.gif




Lets hope it gets him sooner than later. unsure.gif
droschke7
Hmm Arches are a Moslem invention? and Observatories? wonder how the Romans ever got their aquaducts sorted and how the Egyptians managed to set up their Pyramids to line up with star constalations and with compass points, come to think about it does that mean that Stonehenge was built by the Moslems? I was sure Stonhenge was thousands of years old, never mind eh. Just Googled it, Stonehenge is apparently 3800 years old, has Arches and is an observatory, didn't realise that the Moslems were about that long. Having said that, the first proper and nears as not Modern Hospital and medical Universaty was in Mecca, unfortunately if your not (weren't) a Moslem, you're not (weren't) getting in.
Rab-oldname
Last night was a bit insomniatic and I was flicking through weird TV channels when I came across this American Evangelist(?) in a packed church(?) rambling to hundreds of followers mostly mumbling 'halleylewya' or suchlike. This man was 'preaching' about the 'Glory of God' a phrase which he repeated in every sentence for over the fifteen or so minutes that I watched. The entire performance was a complete and utter load of nonsensical rambling from this guy who made no particular point at all except that the 'Glory of God' will cure everything from terrorism to cancers, natural disasters to epidemics etec etc. It was conducted in a ranting fashion at a breathless, breakneck speed and at times was completely unintelligible and fashioned along the lines of Hitler working up the Nazis to jump up and salute him. In this instance, the entranced crowd stood up, raised their hand in the air and shouted 'hallylewya' over and over in a sort of crazed frenzy. His ramblings included exhortations to 'strike down the ungodly who desire to scorn God' - some Christian tolerance there folks! Where have I heard that before I wonder? What struck me was the gullibility of these, no doubt, sincere people who had suspended their intelligence to base their faith on claptrap that the likes of their 'minister' was hyping up to them.
Whatever created us way back then, gave us the power to reason as well as to believe in whatever we wish. It also gave us the spirit of tolerance which is the thing that much of humanity fails to preach and therefore leads to acrimony.

(Apologies for being led to reply to off topic comments above.)
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