After reading the comments on the commies in the commons brought me to wondering why no comments on the new bunch that in a few years time will be sleeping in the commons , the poor students
I have listened to all kinds of talk programs over the past wee while and the most common view i get is from the european people living here in Britain, in countries like Holland they dont have the automatic follow on from high school to uni as a matter of course , you only get there if you first qualify on the brains dept. and then after that if you pay for it yourself , whether it be by working, or if your parents can afford it or, a mixture of both,one guy worked nights in a hospital so he could afford his education and excepted it as the norm in Holland, whats wrong with contributing to your further education as in the cases who want to succeed you will have a good salary and a better life, its no as if they are asking the earth , but the usual british mentality that the state should pay for everything is quite clearly showing through with the neds (so called students) desicrating statues of people who made life in Britain the free living free speech country that it is to-day, but of course a lot of them like the fire extinguisher throwing ned from the last riot , have well to do parents who will pull in there favours from the old school and they will get off scot free, lets see how many land up in the clink, i have worked hard all my life and instead of moaning about i have apreciated the better things in life due to my own efforts
al get aff ma soap box noo
Full Version: Student Loans - Tuition Fees
Nice entry to get some discussion going about a very topical subject, enrique.
Personally, much though I abhor the hijacking of the protests by many hundreds of disafected youngsters (spoiling for ANY excuse to cause some grief), I am delighted to see the young people of this nation get 'ANGRY' about something! Even if it IS only selfishly, their educational prospects!
(see the irony in there, anybody?)
I'm not going to provide a big spiel on this - but I do have some very strong views on the subject - and would be delighted if others were to join in.
davy
Personally, much though I abhor the hijacking of the protests by many hundreds of disafected youngsters (spoiling for ANY excuse to cause some grief), I am delighted to see the young people of this nation get 'ANGRY' about something! Even if it IS only selfishly, their educational prospects!
(see the irony in there, anybody?)
I'm not going to provide a big spiel on this - but I do have some very strong views on the subject - and would be delighted if others were to join in.
davy
I must admit I am torn between my abhorrence of violence and my ennui of the usual apathy displayed in UK. Surely there is a middle road ?
I regard education as a right and a necessity - sadly there are some who cannot benefit from it. As with many things, I wish I knew the answer. No doubt, others will have more ready solutions.
I regard education as a right and a necessity - sadly there are some who cannot benefit from it. As with many things, I wish I knew the answer. No doubt, others will have more ready solutions.
Well, I fink it's no' fair on aw them unemployed yoof wot can't get intae ra universty where they can learn sumfink and become proffessers and teach uva kids wot don't no nuffink!
I met a guy from Lincoln who had studied Geopolitical Resourcing (or something) back in the early '70s when I came out of the RAF.
What he'd spent over 7 years studying gave him an insight into the best locations for placement of factories in relation to available manpower, skills and geographical resources. This meant, for example, if company ABC Ltd supported political party FPP (Fill-yer Pockets Party) then matey would be able to show ABC Ltd the best possible location for their new factory; where high unemployment assured a cheap labour force, and all the tax-free allowances, supplements and bungs that go with it.
So if you had a city with high unemployment: and a big river; and a local motorway; and an airport; and a green belt, then that might prove an ideal area to set up a factory and keep lots of politicians and business men very happy.
Matey studied that for 7 years.
When I met him he was driving a fork-lift truck.
(He didn't fancy having to travel all around the UK using what he'd learned at tax payers expense.)
He probably didn't realise that no one needed his knowledge anyway.
But he did enjoy a carefree few years learning a useless occupation (which he had personally selected).
Had he, or his parents, had to fork out a bit more for his further education he might:-
1) have started driving a fork truck 7 years earlier, or
2) chosen a study which might have been of more benefit to the country which supported him during his 7 years of study, partying and generally having a great time (as he put it) at tax payers expense, or
3) gone into the Air Force; where he could still have furthered his education while being of some use to his fellow citizens.
However, those lying, cheating, fill-yer pockets politicians who sold their Liberal principals to the Tory Party for a share at the trough deserve all the protests and riots that these young people can dish out.
Did we ever imagine that it would come to baton charges against students in London?
Did we ever imagine masked policemen against masked students in London?
Did we ever imagine students pulling policemen down from their mounts in London?
Whose to blame?
Lying, arse kissing, politicians.
I hope the protests continue because only the young can show these liars that they can't get away with their conniving, self-supporting, trough manners.
So power to the student's elbows ( the lazy bunch a wasters
)
I met a guy from Lincoln who had studied Geopolitical Resourcing (or something) back in the early '70s when I came out of the RAF.
What he'd spent over 7 years studying gave him an insight into the best locations for placement of factories in relation to available manpower, skills and geographical resources. This meant, for example, if company ABC Ltd supported political party FPP (Fill-yer Pockets Party) then matey would be able to show ABC Ltd the best possible location for their new factory; where high unemployment assured a cheap labour force, and all the tax-free allowances, supplements and bungs that go with it.
So if you had a city with high unemployment: and a big river; and a local motorway; and an airport; and a green belt, then that might prove an ideal area to set up a factory and keep lots of politicians and business men very happy.
Matey studied that for 7 years.
When I met him he was driving a fork-lift truck.
(He didn't fancy having to travel all around the UK using what he'd learned at tax payers expense.)
He probably didn't realise that no one needed his knowledge anyway.
But he did enjoy a carefree few years learning a useless occupation (which he had personally selected).
Had he, or his parents, had to fork out a bit more for his further education he might:-
1) have started driving a fork truck 7 years earlier, or
2) chosen a study which might have been of more benefit to the country which supported him during his 7 years of study, partying and generally having a great time (as he put it) at tax payers expense, or
3) gone into the Air Force; where he could still have furthered his education while being of some use to his fellow citizens.
However, those lying, cheating, fill-yer pockets politicians who sold their Liberal principals to the Tory Party for a share at the trough deserve all the protests and riots that these young people can dish out.
Did we ever imagine that it would come to baton charges against students in London?
Did we ever imagine masked policemen against masked students in London?
Did we ever imagine students pulling policemen down from their mounts in London?
Whose to blame?
Lying, arse kissing, politicians.
I hope the protests continue because only the young can show these liars that they can't get away with their conniving, self-supporting, trough manners.
So power to the student's elbows ( the lazy bunch a wasters
)
However, those lying, cheating, fill-yer pockets politicians who sold their Liberal principals to the Tory Party for a share at the trough deserve all the protests and riots that these young people can dish out.
Did we ever imagine that it would come to baton charges against students in London?
Did we ever imagine masked policemen against masked students in London?
Did we ever imagine students pulling policemen down from their mounts in London?
Whose to blame?
Lying, arse kissing, politicians.
I hope the protests continue because only the young can show these liars that they can't get away with their conniving, self-supporting, trough manners.
So power to the student's elbows ( the lazy bunch a wasters
Totally agree with you there THH. churchill is said to have observed that our style of government was the best available. If that is so then it is high time we found something else. The first step would be to remove the "right honourable" from MP's titles
Did we ever imagine that it would come to baton charges against students in London?
Did we ever imagine masked policemen against masked students in London?
Did we ever imagine students pulling policemen down from their mounts in London?
Whose to blame?
Lying, arse kissing, politicians.
I hope the protests continue because only the young can show these liars that they can't get away with their conniving, self-supporting, trough manners.
So power to the student's elbows ( the lazy bunch a wasters
Totally agree with you there THH. churchill is said to have observed that our style of government was the best available. If that is so then it is high time we found something else. The first step would be to remove the "right honourable" from MP's titles
QUOTE (andypisces @ 11th Dec 2010, 03:08pm) 
Lying, arse kissing, politicians.
... The first step would be to remove the "right honourable" from MP's titles
... The first step would be to remove the "right honourable" from MP's titles
That is an excellent suggestion ... as a form of public punishment met out to those who are caught with their sticky fingers in the till: ie a wee trip that coincides with a football match or paying exorbitant rent for a room in your partner's West End apartments (out of the tax payers coffers) or lying your teeth out to voters to get your seat in parliament.
Nothin' honourable among those thieves.
Tee, I know what you mean about chosing the wrong Course at Uni.
Our son spent four years at Uni and got his Degree in Economics. He worked with the Social Work Dept. for a few years then went into Nursing which meant another three years of study as a Student Nurse to get the qualifications as a RPN ( Registered Psychiatric Nurse ).
I must admit that he did us tell in his second year in Uni he was thinking of packing it in as he thought he would like to be Nurse which he thought was a more caring profession in helping people. We talked him out of it and advised him to get his Degree.
I think the Government are wrong to treble the cost of the Uni fees and I don't blame the students for protesting, but they are wrong in attacking the Police and others and damaging buildings.
But you will always get the thugs who make the most of these protests to cause as much damage as possible.
Our son spent four years at Uni and got his Degree in Economics. He worked with the Social Work Dept. for a few years then went into Nursing which meant another three years of study as a Student Nurse to get the qualifications as a RPN ( Registered Psychiatric Nurse ).
I must admit that he did us tell in his second year in Uni he was thinking of packing it in as he thought he would like to be Nurse which he thought was a more caring profession in helping people. We talked him out of it and advised him to get his Degree.
I think the Government are wrong to treble the cost of the Uni fees and I don't blame the students for protesting, but they are wrong in attacking the Police and others and damaging buildings.
But you will always get the thugs who make the most of these protests to cause as much damage as possible.
QUOTE (Heather @ 11th Dec 2010, 04:35pm)
... I don't blame the students for protesting, but they are wrong in attacking the Police and others and damaging buildings.
But you will always get the thugs who make the most of these protests to cause as much damage as possible.
But you will always get the thugs who make the most of these protests to cause as much damage as possible.
Shame that it has to come thus far but at least it has shown the lying politicians that they have gone too far.
Definitely showed Charles and Carmilla that something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
HM's student subjects vs HM's lying government.
The damage is collateral.
Location, location ! 
As much as I agree about everyone's right to education....for the last 100 years or more that has been impossible because MONEY TALKS and regardless of the major opinions, Colleges like Oxford and Cambridge still keep course available to the 'Right People'.There will always be a system whereby the people from 'certain colleges' will get automatic access to the 'right and proper' position in life.
So, what to do......how about this for a revolutionary position to take...!
Courses where the graduates are likely to 'benefit' the Country could become FREE or at least reduced in fees.....for example
Medical Studies Science Studies Health & Welfare Studies Engineering Studies
Could all qualify for Grants as there are needs for them to fill situations currently being offered to foreign professionala.
Courses where it could be seen that 'Wealthy Parents' are ensuring that their offspring 'graduate' irrespective of what as, or why could be fully funded from the students/parents......
such as....
Greek Mythology, 17th Century European Studies, 8th Century English Royality, German Politics, Pre-Columbian Art, Victorian Flora & Fauna and the list goes on and on and on..........
All of which are courses where any returnable value to the community is non-existant.........
Just because a person graduates does not inflate them into a higher level of living..................or does it...?
Much has been promoted about the need for Free Education, but there also must come a time when we all step back and actually look at just exactly what some of these 'needy students' are actually studying.....
It can be very pleasant for a rich or middle-class parent to be proud of the achievements of their children when they collect their 'scroll/degree'
But no one seems to be asking what value, if any, the actual study will have in later life, and there could be a good arguement for considering that were these same students asked to study something of more than 'personal' value....they may have to humble themselves into seeking 'work' rather than keep out of the rain for 4 years, whilst getting an allowance for cheap beer and subsidized flats.
Let us all take a few steps back and smell what is being shovelled here...!
Thank you bigdrew, you have saved me a lot of typing! I agree 100%. May I suggest also that we close all the 'universities' (lower case is deliberate) commissioned over the past 13 years? Time to get back to the status quo where the students with the correctly assessed qualifications were given Uni places and where they might repay the gift of higher education to the country rather than the present mess. I am no economist, but what this would save would surely prevent the neccessity for this grossly unfair method of higher fees leading to higher and longer debt. In my opinion, a degree nowadays does not seem worth very much considering the cost of it.
But there again, what do I know?
But there again, what do I know?
I don’t agree that post secondary school education is a right. I have watched the riots in London and can’t help thinking that it’s unfortunate all that energy couldn’t be directed toward working and paying tuition fees. Here in Canada, most students, at least those not having wealthy parents, leave university with a hefty student loan. They have I believe 10 years to pay it off, the thinking being that they will make on average more money than those without that degree, and it has been proven whether the degree is a humanities degree or something perceived to be more “useful” that this is the case over time. In my case we promised our daughter that we would pay her way the first year, and after that it was up to her, if she really wanted to continue she would find a way, which she did sometimes with 3 jobs at a time. I agree that a triple increase in fees is excessive, but it does seem time for a fee overhaul
The disgraceful and wanton damage and violence towards the Police in London I would suggest is not 'rioting' in the true sense of the word. The student march/demonstration was hijacked, as usual by anarchistic types who grab every opportunity to vent their twisted beliefs into violence and damage towards society as a whole. They infiltrate genuine student demos where they can hide, before breaking into violent behaviour. The majority of students who marched, peacefully, in protest at tuition fees, were just as indignant against the hoodlums who joined their ranks, and were blamed at large, unfairly, as rioters rather than demonstrators. The balaclavas, ski-masks, prepared weapons and 'shields' said it all. I do not believe genuine student demonstrators for example, would have attacked the royal cars. I had years of experience dealing with this scum (no other term will do) who have no respect for anyone or any thing.
I have to concur with Bigdrew, Free education to suitable candidates in medicine, nursing etc. For the ology wans then pay.
It is sad to say but too many people at uni are nothing more than ASDA fodder, they are not intelligent, they are wasting their time and our money in a dumbed down arena created by spin doctors. That means doctors without any education
Lets not drag this in to a political, wrong or right. I get angry because the level of education has dropped like a stone over the last 13 years, ok we have to make it political.
I upset people a few years ago on here when I said education had been dumbed down. It kicked off but I had children in the same dumbed down system. Now the facts all prove what I said was 100% correct
Two ways of looking at it. My oldest is already at Uni but like her mum her spelling is suspect, I find it amazing that someone can be at uni with such a dubious grasp of English. Her mother on the other hand has done her masters and is the matron in one on Britain's biggest hospitals. This woman cannot differentiate between has and as.
Maybe that's not a great example but I know that many people are wasting their times at so called universities because they will never be on a par with proper graduates who have taken and studied overthe perid for exams.
I'm laughing now cos ah'm on the beer trying to explain this
I hope you don't all take this the wrong way but exams were dumbed down to keep kids in education to dull the unemployment figures. Labour increased the school leaving age again, nothing more than a fiddle on unemployment.
Rab is bang on, shut down the mickey mouse uni's. Close the scam shops. Fund as the boys say, courses that are needed and will benefit the country, let the rest pay. My oldest is a business one, let her pay if she hits the bank trail. Why should the less fortunate be asked to pay for her if she starts coining it in. If her sisters decided to follow their mother in nursing then I would fight tooth and nail for them to have it free because financially they will never be equal with their sibling.
It is sad to say but too many people at uni are nothing more than ASDA fodder, they are not intelligent, they are wasting their time and our money in a dumbed down arena created by spin doctors. That means doctors without any education
Lets not drag this in to a political, wrong or right. I get angry because the level of education has dropped like a stone over the last 13 years, ok we have to make it political.
I upset people a few years ago on here when I said education had been dumbed down. It kicked off but I had children in the same dumbed down system. Now the facts all prove what I said was 100% correct
Two ways of looking at it. My oldest is already at Uni but like her mum her spelling is suspect, I find it amazing that someone can be at uni with such a dubious grasp of English. Her mother on the other hand has done her masters and is the matron in one on Britain's biggest hospitals. This woman cannot differentiate between has and as.
Maybe that's not a great example but I know that many people are wasting their times at so called universities because they will never be on a par with proper graduates who have taken and studied overthe perid for exams.
I'm laughing now cos ah'm on the beer trying to explain this
I hope you don't all take this the wrong way but exams were dumbed down to keep kids in education to dull the unemployment figures. Labour increased the school leaving age again, nothing more than a fiddle on unemployment.
Rab is bang on, shut down the mickey mouse uni's. Close the scam shops. Fund as the boys say, courses that are needed and will benefit the country, let the rest pay. My oldest is a business one, let her pay if she hits the bank trail. Why should the less fortunate be asked to pay for her if she starts coining it in. If her sisters decided to follow their mother in nursing then I would fight tooth and nail for them to have it free because financially they will never be equal with their sibling.
JJ. I know what your saying here but I must point out that my ex-wife (who was stupid anyway) always referred to the airs on ones harm or the hairs on ones arm as others might say but she was from Lingconsheer where they all spoke like that.
My Mary, on the other hand, has to look to her watch before she can say if we should turn left or right; one of most intelligent women I've had the pleasure of knowing and she still cannot tell left from right.
I agree that if someone wants a degree in postage stamps through the ages then the costs should be met in full by that student or his/her parents.
On the other hand, attaining a degree is also a sign to potential employers that the candidate is at least capable of learning something; useful or not.
You've put me in the mood now for a Bacardi and this time a KILKENNY chaser.
My Mary, on the other hand, has to look to her watch before she can say if we should turn left or right; one of most intelligent women I've had the pleasure of knowing and she still cannot tell left from right.
I agree that if someone wants a degree in postage stamps through the ages then the costs should be met in full by that student or his/her parents.
On the other hand, attaining a degree is also a sign to potential employers that the candidate is at least capable of learning something; useful or not.
You've put me in the mood now for a Bacardi and this time a KILKENNY chaser.
Here in Ontario, students / parents, can apply for student loans which will be granted depending on the parents income and of course has to be repaid .
Why not just keep going the way we have been in the past and bankrupt the country, sell it off to China and all the students will be happy with their free education
Drew, Rab and JJ have some great ideas but unfortunately after many years it is hard to pull the pigs fae the trough.
As for the protests, there are many cameras around London, make the most of them and prosecute all the troublemakers and I mean all. Lets start with Charlie Gilmour. Sorry LSD is no excuse.
Drew, Rab and JJ have some great ideas but unfortunately after many years it is hard to pull the pigs fae the trough.
As for the protests, there are many cameras around London, make the most of them and prosecute all the troublemakers and I mean all. Lets start with Charlie Gilmour. Sorry LSD is no excuse.
There were a couple of good letters in The Herald on this subject yesterday:
There was also a student demo in Glasgow on Thursday (although the decision does not directly affect Scottish students). The police presence, in comparison to the number of students, was huge. At one point, they (the police) formed a cordon round City Chambers in George Square as frightened councillors huddled in the bunker.
I've got some pics – will post later ...
GG.
QUOTE
Let us be grateful we have young people who are not passive and apathetic. Apathy is a much greater threat to democracy than some minor acts of vandalism in the context of large demonstrations that have been angry but peaceful.
Why should young people in England have any respect for supposedly democratic institutions. The Labour Government first introduced fees in England after it had said it would not do so.
The Liberal Democrats fought the election on a pledge to phase in the abolition of tuition fees, never mind trebling them. And, despite the facts of the economic situation being in the public domain before the election, did anyone hear David Cameron state he was going to introduce the highest fees in public universities in the developed world?
If there is no way of achieving your objectives through the democratic system because no-one tells the truth, what are the alternatives? Some sink into passivity in the face of injustice. The poorest in our society who will suffer from welfare cuts and unemployment may not have the resources or the morale to challenge the injustice of a system that feather-beds those who caused the crisis but imposes the pain on the weakest. It would be a salutary lesson to political leaders if they did also take to the streets.
We are fortunate in Scotland in having our own parliament, with all its imperfections. In some policy areas, such as higher education, we can make different decisions. But there are large areas of public policy where the decisions are at Westminster. We need a vigorous debate on the powers that should come to Scotland before next year’s Holyrood elections so we can move in a different ideological direction.
IL, Biggar.
Why should young people in England have any respect for supposedly democratic institutions. The Labour Government first introduced fees in England after it had said it would not do so.
The Liberal Democrats fought the election on a pledge to phase in the abolition of tuition fees, never mind trebling them. And, despite the facts of the economic situation being in the public domain before the election, did anyone hear David Cameron state he was going to introduce the highest fees in public universities in the developed world?
If there is no way of achieving your objectives through the democratic system because no-one tells the truth, what are the alternatives? Some sink into passivity in the face of injustice. The poorest in our society who will suffer from welfare cuts and unemployment may not have the resources or the morale to challenge the injustice of a system that feather-beds those who caused the crisis but imposes the pain on the weakest. It would be a salutary lesson to political leaders if they did also take to the streets.
We are fortunate in Scotland in having our own parliament, with all its imperfections. In some policy areas, such as higher education, we can make different decisions. But there are large areas of public policy where the decisions are at Westminster. We need a vigorous debate on the powers that should come to Scotland before next year’s Holyrood elections so we can move in a different ideological direction.
IL, Biggar.
QUOTE
Watching the sickening scenes of the Metropolitan Police charging protesting students and schoolchildren with horses, I was reminded very much of the brutality to peaceful anti-segregationist protesters in Birmingham, Alabama, in the 1960s.
The Met was giving a clear warning to anyone thinking of protesting against the Government’s cuts. They can expect to be corralled for hours, denied food, water and toilet facilities, and expect to be on the end of a truncheon if they try to leave.
The way the Met behaved was a disgrace. The students had every right to petition their elected representatives of the Liberal Democratic Party to honour their election pledge not to raise tuition fees in England. The Met denied them that right.
The students, like the rest of the have-nots in this country, are being told they must pick up the tab for the greed and stupidity of the bankers and speculators.
All this while the super-rich dodge paying £126bn in tax. The fight against the Eton-educated, Oxbridge elite is only just beginning. All over the country, local groups are taking action to defend services and stop tax dodging firms doing business.
AH, Dundee.
The Met was giving a clear warning to anyone thinking of protesting against the Government’s cuts. They can expect to be corralled for hours, denied food, water and toilet facilities, and expect to be on the end of a truncheon if they try to leave.
The way the Met behaved was a disgrace. The students had every right to petition their elected representatives of the Liberal Democratic Party to honour their election pledge not to raise tuition fees in England. The Met denied them that right.
The students, like the rest of the have-nots in this country, are being told they must pick up the tab for the greed and stupidity of the bankers and speculators.
All this while the super-rich dodge paying £126bn in tax. The fight against the Eton-educated, Oxbridge elite is only just beginning. All over the country, local groups are taking action to defend services and stop tax dodging firms doing business.
AH, Dundee.
There was also a student demo in Glasgow on Thursday (although the decision does not directly affect Scottish students). The police presence, in comparison to the number of students, was huge. At one point, they (the police) formed a cordon round City Chambers in George Square as frightened councillors huddled in the bunker.
I've got some pics – will post later ...
GG.
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 12th Dec 2010, 12:17am)
On the other hand, attaining a degree is also a sign to potential employers that the candidate is at least capable of learning something; useful or not.
Tend to disagree, TH (surprise, surprise).
I met more post grads in the period, 97 to 2007, than you could shake a stick at!
The attainment of ANY degree, is definitely NOT an indicator of a person's ABILITY to learn. It only proves that they have proven efficacy in passing certain criteria, in a particular field and that often seems to be a paddy field!
I can assure you (note I didn't ask you to believe me lol), very many of them could neither tie a shoe lace - OR even be SHOWN how to! (Regardless of the degree!).
Watching the disgraceful scenes from the 'protestors' live on TV I had to admire the restraint shown by the police officers under extreme provocation.
QUOTE (wee davy @ 12th Dec 2010, 06:14pm)
Tend to disagree, TH (surprise, surprise).
I met more post grads in the period, 97 to 2007, than you could shake a stick at!
The attainment of ANY degree, is definitely NOT an indicator of a person's ABILITY to learn. It only proves that they have proven efficacy in passing certain criteria, in a particular field and that often seems to be a paddy field!
I can assure you (note I didn't ask you to believe me lol), very many of them could neither tie a shoe lace - OR even be SHOWN how to! (Regardless of the degree!).
I met more post grads in the period, 97 to 2007, than you could shake a stick at!
The attainment of ANY degree, is definitely NOT an indicator of a person's ABILITY to learn. It only proves that they have proven efficacy in passing certain criteria, in a particular field and that often seems to be a paddy field!
I can assure you (note I didn't ask you to believe me lol), very many of them could neither tie a shoe lace - OR even be SHOWN how to! (Regardless of the degree!).
See you are back in Twaddleland , wee man. How in the pluperfect hell do you imagine it possible to gain a degree without being capable of learning, even if only learning how to pass a degree ?
There are times when I despair of your reasoning. What does " efficacy in passing certain criteriaš mean, for goodness sake ?
You could be correct in your other idea about some graduates being over-specialized in their learning but the shoelace metaphor is a bit off. I am sure that many board members with degrees , or who are proud of their childrenŽs academic achievements through years of hard work, will be aghast at your scathing remarks.
For the record, I do not have a degree, having dropped out of University at a very young age.
That was my failure and one I regretted for many a year.
QUOTE (wee davy @ 12th Dec 2010, 04:14pm)
The attainment of ANY degree, is definitely NOT an indicator of a person's ABILITY to learn. It only proves that they have proven efficacy in passing certain criteria, in a particular field and that often seems to be a paddy field!
That needs to be explained Davy.
QUOTE (Mathieson @ 12th Dec 2010, 06:06pm)
Watching the disgraceful scenes from the 'protestors' live on TV I had to admire the restraint shown by the police officers under extreme provocation.
1. Violent and damaging protestors - Police criticised for lack of firm action.
2. Violent and damaging protestors - Police criticised for taking firm action.
Has it ever been thus?
Taking part in any demonstration carries risks thanks to the lawless few.
QUOTE
Taking part in any demonstration carries risks thanks to the lawless few.
Aye, things used tae get a bit rough at the Kelvin Hall "Ideal Homes Exhibition" cookery demonstrations , when the free samples ran oot.
QUOTE (Rab @ 12th Dec 2010, 07:04pm)
1. Violent and damaging protestors - Police criticised for lack of firm action.
2. Violent and damaging protestors - Police criticised for taking firm action.
Has it ever been thus?
Taking part in any demonstration carries risks thanks to the lawless few.
2. Violent and damaging protestors - Police criticised for taking firm action.
Has it ever been thus?
Taking part in any demonstration carries risks thanks to the lawless few.
I don't undrestaun that. Maybe it's because I don't have a degree (kiddy-on or otherwise).
QUOTE (Mathieson @ 12th Dec 2010, 05:06pm)
Watching the disgraceful scenes from the 'protestors' live on TV I had to admire the restraint shown by the police officers under extreme provocation.
Extreme provocation?
Two sides to every coin.
QUOTE
Protester Alfie Meadows, 20, needed brain surgery after being allegedly hit on the head with a police baton. His mother Susan Mathews said police objected to him being treated at Chelsea and Westminster Hospital. The student was treated there after a "stand off" between police and medical staff but was later transferred to Charring Cross Hospital where there is a specialist Brain Surgery Unit.
BBC reportage.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11965694
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11957991
T HEE sez: His mother Susan Mathews said police objected to him being treated at Chelsea and Westminster Hospital. The student was treated there after a "stand off" between police and medical staff
ennywan no why polis wid object tae sumwan recieving treatment?
ahm puzzled
ennywan no why polis wid object tae sumwan recieving treatment?
ahm puzzled
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 12th Dec 2010, 05:29pm)
That needs to be explained Davy.
Certainly, THEE - I will compose my qualified (note bilbo)explanation, which will be clear, succinct, and to the point. As per usual, I intended no disrespect to those who have worked hard, for a meaningful, and above all, WORTHY degree (worthy of the name DEGREE).
OK All learning is valuable - but not ALL degrees are!
I'm just a bit too busy right now - I didn't get where I am today, by missing the X Factor lol
(Be careful taking one of my best mates names in vain, bilbo - he was 6 foot 5 inches tall, and had muscles oan hiz muscles! Big Mal Twaddle wiz hiz name - well - ye cannae winem awe lol)
QUOTE
Apathy is a much greater threat to democracy than some minor acts of vandalism in the context of large demonstrations that have been angry but peaceful.
while I agree that apathy can also be a threat I wonder where on earth this person has been hiding. How can they possibly call these minor acts of vandalism. Knocking off a policemans helmet with ones hand is a minor act of vandalism, knocking it off with a brick is attempted murder.
Some of the images I have saw look anything but minor.
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 12th Dec 2010, 03:34pm)
yes and I would like a free car but I don't think the rest of you want to pay for it
QUOTE (martini @ 12th Dec 2010, 09:55pm)
yes and I would like a free car but I don't think the rest of you want to pay for it
If you had read the 2nd (BBC) link I posted you might have noticed that for the "grandbairns", assuming they are Scottish, the Uni. is free.
Don't know what the old guy was doing there ... unless him and his kids already lived in England ... but I just posted that picture to show a peaceful protester
QUOTE (wombat @ 12th Dec 2010, 08:50pm)
T HEE sez: His mother Susan Mathews said police objected to him being treated at Chelsea and Westminster Hospital. The student was treated there after a "stand off" between police and medical staff
ennywan no why polis wid object tae sumwan recieving treatment?
ahm puzzled STILL???????????????????????? T HEE?
ennywan no why polis wid object tae sumwan recieving treatment?
ahm puzzled STILL???????????????????????? T HEE?
Wombat: The Chelsea and Westminster Hospital appeared to be reserved for policemen injured during the fray.
Martini: I boobed again
Click to view attachment
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-sout...otland-11968462
How could Michael Moore be so two faced as to claim he would rather see no fees at all (in England) but vote for a three fold increase as the only solution possible.?
Martini: I boobed again
QUOTE
As for Scotland, Scottish students who wish to study north of the border continue to pay no fees and will be unaffected by the vote.
Click to view attachment
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-sout...otland-11968462
How could Michael Moore be so two faced as to claim he would rather see no fees at all (in England) but vote for a three fold increase as the only solution possible.?
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 12th Dec 2010, 08:34pm)
Extreme provocation?
Two sides to every coin.
Two sides to every coin.
Yes, extreme provocation. The police were there to do a job, the protestors seemed to be there to attack the police with masonry and metal barriers and poles, vandalise property and break into buildings to commit further acts of vandalism.
I admired the restraint of the police when I watched it live and still think the same way.
Wombat: The Chelsea and Westminster Hospital appeared to be reserved for policemen injured during the fray.
for SS members only HUH! discrimination in a hospital what next?
guid on the students fer standin up tae greed ,class bigotry,and racism
for SS members only HUH! discrimination in a hospital what next?guid on the students fer standin up tae greed ,class bigotry,and racism
When contingency plans are made regarding major incidents like demo's, plane crashes, terrorist attacks etc. Hospitalisation is one of the major factors. It is agreed by the various agencies as to which hospitals will be used by the various different people. You do not want police and demonstrators at the same hospital as this can cause conflict. Not necessarily by the casualty but by the people who have accompanied him/her, resulting in treatment at the hospital being delayed for everyone.
So the likelyhood is that there was a designated hospital for demonstrator. After all, it's London, you do not need to travel far.
So the likelyhood is that there was a designated hospital for demonstrator. After all, it's London, you do not need to travel far.
ah didny come doon in the last shower jimD ,but when sumwans critical why fart aboot?if the man died the violence wid escalate. 
QUOTE (Mathieson @ 12th Dec 2010, 10:22pm)
Yes, extreme provocation. The police were there to do a job, the protestors seemed to be there to attack the police with masonry and metal barriers and poles, vandalise property and break into buildings to commit further acts of vandalism.
I admired the restraint of the police when I watched it live and still think the same way.
I admired the restraint of the police when I watched it live and still think the same way.
Again there's two sides to every coin. Eye witness accounts spoke of protesters being directed one way by police; who barred off and secured side streets, while other police units broke off any possibility of retreat thus herding a mass of people into an area where the were practically imprisoned for over 4 hours. I appreciate that the police might have tried to minimise any action taken by these particular students but by doing so; in this case, they were certainly provoking a reaction. What were the protesting students supposed to do? Sit down and study? Cross their legs till they were allowed to find a toilet? Sing, "We shall overcome"?
As with all and any demonstrations; whether it's striking miners or students protesting against back-tracking politicians who simply promised anything to get near to the trough, provocation will be there and as we all learned in our foundling years "every action has an equal and opposite reaction."
Politicians and policemen didn't need to attend university to learn that.
I'm not condoning violence in the streets; by any means, but there's more to handling crowds than massed charges and crackin' skulls.
Although, having said that, I also appreciate how it must feel to have to stand against a throng of jeering; or singing, protesters who are going with the flow.
But, having said that, police are trained to handle such things ... as are their horses. (maybe next time the police should direct a mounted charge on elephants ... always more effective. )
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 13th Dec 2010, 12:05am)
Again there's two sides to every coin. Eye witness accounts spoke of protesters being directed one way by police; who barred off and secured side streets, while other police units broke off any possibility of retreat thus herding a mass of people into an area where the were practically imprisoned for over 4 hours. I appreciate that the police might have tried to minimise any action taken by these particular students but by doing so; in this case, they were certainly provoking a reaction. What were the protesting students supposed to do? Sit down and study? Cross their legs till they were allowed to find a toilet? Sing, "We shall overcome"?
As with all and any demonstrations; whether it's striking miners or students protesting against back-tracking politicians who simply promised anything to get near to the trough, provocation will be there and as we all learned in our foundling years "every action has an equal and opposite reaction."
Politicians and policemen didn't need to attend university to learn that.
I'm not condoning violence in the streets; by any means, but there's more to handling crowds than massed charges and crackin' skulls.
Although, having said that, I also appreciate how it must feel to have to stand against a throng of jeering; or singing, protesters who are going with the flow.
But, having said that, police are trained to handle such things ... as are their horses. (maybe next time the police should direct a mounted charge on elephants ... always more effective. )
As with all and any demonstrations; whether it's striking miners or students protesting against back-tracking politicians who simply promised anything to get near to the trough, provocation will be there and as we all learned in our foundling years "every action has an equal and opposite reaction."
Politicians and policemen didn't need to attend university to learn that.
I'm not condoning violence in the streets; by any means, but there's more to handling crowds than massed charges and crackin' skulls.
Although, having said that, I also appreciate how it must feel to have to stand against a throng of jeering; or singing, protesters who are going with the flow.
But, having said that, police are trained to handle such things ... as are their horses. (maybe next time the police should direct a mounted charge on elephants ... always more effective. )
"What were the protesting students supposed to do? Sit down and study? Cross their legs till they were allowed to find a toilet? Sing, "We shall overcome"?"
Well any of those would have been preferable to what they did do.
Presumably you expected them to start knocking the police around, setting fires and vandalising property. Ah well, it takes all kinds they say.
And a mounted charge on elephants? Come one, surely that would only have made matters worse?
QUOTE (Mathieson @ 12th Dec 2010, 11:13pm)
And a mounted charge on elephants? Come one, surely that would only have made matters worse?
Who for? The police?
Quite possibly, it's not as easy as it looks staying on a charging elephant.
Especially if you're swinging an eight foot long police baton.
I would have thought that could have been an effective aid to balance.
Exactly my thought ... after I posted 
ahm sayin nuthin
Bobcats are like that.
I would have thought; as a layman untrained in matters of civil unrest of course, that with all the CCTV cameras that London has at it's disposal it would not have been difficult to pinpoint the masked avengers and send in specially trained teams to single out the real villains and cut them from the herd.
Mmm. Where have I seen that before?
I would have thought; as a layman untrained in matters of civil unrest of course, that with all the CCTV cameras that London has at it's disposal it would not have been difficult to pinpoint the masked avengers and send in specially trained teams to single out the real villains and cut them from the herd.
Mmm. Where have I seen that before?
See how easy it is for well trained police squads to cut one out of the herd!
One thing which has particularly struck me, as we watched the events unfolding - is that not just the POLICE were bristling with cameras (and aided by CCTV) - but the protestors are 'armed to the teeth' with media aids, ALSO! The exposing of those images of 'people the police would like to help with their enquiries), may just backfire - when people demand that images also appear of officers being a little too 'liberal' with the baton!
Fascinating,... everybody trying to catch everybody else's best side? hmm
Lets think about that one for a minute.
Oh, well - nite all
One last thing - I'm pretty sure the huge majority of protestors, were in fact just that - protestors - and long may our nation support the right for us to PEACEFULLY go about that business but for those who wish to hijack the process - let the full force of the law be brought down on their heads.
Fascinating,... everybody trying to catch everybody else's best side? hmm
Lets think about that one for a minute.
Oh, well - nite all
One last thing - I'm pretty sure the huge majority of protestors, were in fact just that - protestors - and long may our nation support the right for us to PEACEFULLY go about that business but for those who wish to hijack the process - let the full force of the law be brought down on their heads.
When you think about the huge problems that the present generation of useless politicians have created for young people in the future is it any surprise that they are so furious??
Young people will never know the financial security and public services that many of us have taken for granted because they've been squandered and/or given away by self-serving greedy politicians who are only out to line their own pockets.
Young people will never know the financial security and public services that many of us have taken for granted because they've been squandered and/or given away by self-serving greedy politicians who are only out to line their own pockets.
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