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GG
Bosses at Glasgow Life, the rebranded name for Culture and Sport Glasgow, have come under fire for shipping off Salvador Dali's Christ of St John of the Cross to America for six months, a period which will include the Pope's once-in-a-generation visit to Glasgow. It means that the many thousands of Catholics flocking to Glasgow for the visit will miss out on the chance to see the city's most famous religious work on display in the Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum.

Criticising the move by the company running the city's museums, Julian Spalding, art critic, writer and former director of museums and art galleries in the city, commented that many of those attending the Pope's Mass at Bellahouston Park would have wanted to see the "revered" image. Mr Spalding said:

QUOTE
"It is one of the great images of the Catholic religion. I think it is absolutely mad to have it go when the Pope is coming to visit. It's an absolutely stupid decision.

I like Atlanta [High Museum], it's a nice museum and it will be good for the people who see the show, but if you lend the great works, you get back in return something that the Glaswegians want to see. You get great works in return, that is how it works. If you loan for money, what does £25,000 do? Is it used for clearing up the parks or something? There are other budgets for that type of thing.

I think it is just wrong, it should only be going for a short period: two or three months at most."

A spokesman for Glasgow Life, who insisted that the loan deal had been made before the Pope's visit was confirmed, said:

QUOTE
"The iconic Christ of St John of the Cross is the key exhibit in this summer's Dali exhibition at the High Museum of Atlanta. This loan agreement includes a commitment to find out much more about this Glasgow treasure and how important it was to Dali's career before it returns early next year."

The loan will be a blow to hopes of halting the rapid decline in visitor numbers at the Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum. Annual visitor numbers at the city's most-popular venue were down by more than 5% last year, and have declined by more than 800,000 visitors since 2007, the year following its re-opening after refurbishment.



Click to view attachment

GG.
Lennox
Martin, A few years ago when the Art gallery was closed the art came to Oklahoma , ( trust me it was needed ) and it was one of biggest draws that the Museum of Oklahoma ever had , I think it gives people who can't get there a chance to see it for themselves, shame about the timong tho.
Heather
The painting would certainly draw a lot of attention in any City and it's good for others to have a chance to see it. But I agree with Lennox, on this occasion it's bad timing.
norrie123
As far as I am aware the loan deal was done before the Popes visit was announced, could Glasgow have gone back on the loan deal, perhaps not, if it meant breaking a contract
Anyway the visitors can by a post card of the painting, seemingly Glasgow own the copyright of the painting and have made a lot of money from the cards

Bye for now, norrie
Maggiebarclay
Why on earth did they feel the need to let it go to another country in the first place?

It has been in Glasgow for as long as i remember.. And to do it while our holy father visit's Scotland is just so bad timing i really dont know what they were thinking about.. please pray that we get it back before the Pope gets here. x
David Todd
I dont think the Pope will be offended - nor will the folks who will come to to see him, who Im sure the majority will not even be aware the picture is on loan elsewhere.

Guest
It is bad timing and a pitY considering the planned visit, but would the Pope actually see it (or want to). No offence to Catholics (as a non Catholic I'm very very pleased he is coming to our city) but the painting is for the benefit of all not just one man. I think the people of Atlanta will enjoy it and far more people will see it there. It is common for art treasure to be sent to other countries (Glasgow/Scotland has benefited from the Tutenkaman and the Chinese Terracotta Warriors exhibitions). I am sure the Pope will understand. Lets just hope the West of Scotlands less reputable religious elements don't use this for there own narrow minded purposes.
Rob Rattray
It's a good thing to 'lend' to other museums as you get something in return of similar value for display in your area; tough that the other guy is paying you a 'once in his lifetime' visit at the same time but it would have been quite different if Jesus Christ Himself was coming - no?"
The other bloke is just a man like you and me!

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
TeeHeeHee
Holy Father or no Holy Father, the painting of Christ of St John of the Cross by Dali has been loaned " for a bowl of potash"
I understand the importance of lending art internationally and I understand the bad timing in the instance of the Pope's visit but I can't understand lending what, for me, is probably the greatest painting that Dali ever did for 25K. Are they that short of readies in Glasgow?
Maybe Purcell could have set them up with a better deal.
I also can't understand why this is neither here nor there for 42% of the members who voted (to date.)
kATHERINE gOETZ
Hallo everyone, as some have said, bad timing. Such loans etc., have to be very well organised, the other end has to get exhibition organised too. You cant do that in a couple of months, there is a lot of work behind it, which many people might not realise. I'm sure the Pope has seen this
Masterpiece, if at all on the web, i.e if he is interested in Arts. We dont have to shove it into his face, or do we?

I grew up in Glasgow and went to Kelvingrove on a regular basis. I saw this Masterpiece when I was about 13 or 14. I have never forgotten the impact on me, and was disgusted on my last visit home to find (after looking everywhere) it was hung at the end of a corridor, a much
too small hanging place - dear God. Glasgow, Cultural City, City of the Arts - do we have to tell them, they know nothing about displaying a Masterpiece.

Anyway Dali`s Masterpiece will be back home (don't forget, Glasgow will get refunded for the loan) and hopefully hung in a more explicit site.

Katherine
from Nuernberg - Glasgows Sister City.
bilbo.s
Quite agree with you Katherine about the siting of the painting, although it was even worse on the previous occasion I went there to show it off to English friends, and found out it was in St Mungo Museum of Religion.
*Megan*
Good morning,

I am absolutely horrified - I am visiting October and missed seeing "my" Dali because the Gallery was closed last time I was there - it was high on my agenda for this next visit.

I'm assuming you're referring to the same painting I love - a painting looking down at the crucified Christ's head with boats and desert below??

My children & I came for a 2 week visit to Glasgow in 1979 and stayed 5+ years - lived in Raebery street Maryhill. We visited the Kelvingrove Glasgow Gallery monthly in wonderment that it was FREE and the paintings and sculpture were "ours" to view and love. The Dali became "mine" and I was devastated later to learn that someone slashed it.

I have recently learned that it has moved to a museum of religious art - which I shall have to visit when in Glasgow BUT will be very unhappy to note that my favourite work is missing - WHY is it going to America?

Megan.
GG
Hi Megan,

Yes, that is the painting in question. Here's some more information about the great painting:

QUOTE
Christ of Saint John of the Cross is a painting by Salvador Dalí made in 1951. It depicts Jesus Christ on the cross in a darkened sky floating over a body of water complete with a boat and fishermen. Although it is a depiction of the crucifixion, it is devoid of nails, blood, and a crown of thorns, because, according to Dalí, he was convinced by a dream that these features would mar his depiction of Christ. Also in a dream, the importance of depicting Christ in the extreme angle evident in the painting was revealed to him.

The painting is known as the "Christ of Saint John of the Cross," because its design is based on a drawing by the 16th century Spanish friar Saint John of the Cross. The composition of Christ is also based on a triangle and circle (the triangle is formed by Christ's arms; the circle is formed by Christ's head). The triangle, since it has three sides, can be seen as a reference to the Trinity, and the circle may be an allusion to Platonic thought. On the bottom of his studies for the painting, Dalí explained its inspiration: "In the first place, in 1950, I had a 'cosmic dream' in which I saw this image in color and which in my dream represented the 'nucleus of the atom.' This nucleus later took on a metaphysical sense; I considered it 'the very unity of the universe,' the Christ!"

The painting and intellectual property rights were acquired by Glasgow Corporation in the early 1950s for £8,200, a price considered high at the time. In 1961, the canvas was damaged by a visitor to the museum (using a brick) because the viewpoint of the artist was looking down rather than up on the subject. It has since been successfully restored. In 1993, the painting was moved to the city's St Mungo Museum of Religious Life and Art, but returned to Kelvingrove for its reopening in July 2006. It won a poll to decide Scotland's favorite painting in 2006, with 29% of the vote.

The Spanish government is said to have offered £80 million for the painting, but the offer was turned down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_of_Sai...hn_of_the_Cross

GG.
markybhoy81
This painting happens to be one of my favourites. It is a beautiful work of art and should be shared with other nations. However, I do believe that the loan could have waited until after Pope Benedict's visit. Many people from other parts of the UK who will be coming to Glasgow for the visit would have liked to see Dali's masterpiece.
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (Maggiebarclay @ 6th Jul 2010, 09:40pm) *
.. please pray that we get it back before the Pope gets here. x


Can't see that one being answered rolleyes.gif
bilbo.s
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 7th Jul 2010, 01:38pm) *
Can't see that one being answered rolleyes.gif



Oh teeheehee of little faith! biggrin.gif
*bette*
Most who go to see the Holy Father! Will be so tired with the journey, the standing the mass the media frenzy I think will not miss this art work.
The good lord is everywhere to the faithfull, Amen.
weebren3
I am sure the pope will get all the attention then, that is what the visit is for, no harm done. We all share the wealth, dont we. I dont think the pope will mind. We are all one, gods children.
*rabatat*
Haud on. It's a painting. You're not allowed to touch it, only look at it from a distance. Make a big photiecopy of it and hang it on the wall.
Lennox
QUOTE (*rabatat* @ 8th Jul 2010, 09:33am) *
Haud on. It's a painting. You're not allowed to touch it, only look at it from a distance. Make a big photiecopy of it and hang it on the wall.


It might be only a painting, but what a painting it is , and it seems that we all think of it as our own personal painting . biggrin.gif
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (*rabatat* @ 8th Jul 2010, 08:33am) *
Haud on. It's a painting.

It's only a Sali Dali painting rolleyes.gif
loganswell
It's hardly an accurate depiction of an crucifixion for goodness' sake! It's so false - for one thing there is no blood. There would be a lot of blood!!! Let the Yanks keep it, that's what I say.
bilbo.s
QUOTE (loganswell @ 9th Jul 2010, 04:36am) *
It's hardly an accurate depiction of an crucifixion for goodness' sake! It's so false - for one thing there is no blood. There would be a lot of blood!!! Let the Yanks keep it, that's what I say.

That's what we've been lacking on this website. An art critic with a sharp eye for detail , a no-nonsense attitude, and love of realism. Obviously a Mel Gibson fan. Anyone got a decent colour photograph of a crucifixion as any painting isn't accurate enough. unsure.gif
GG
One point worth mentioning is that anyone wishing to view the Dali painting while it is away for six months will have to pay ... including pensioners and children:

  • Adult: $18.00
  • Children (ages 6-17): $11.00
  • Senior (65+): $15.00
  • Student (ID required to enter): $15.00
Could be a nice little earner for the High Museum in Atlanta!

GG.
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (loganswell @ 9th Jul 2010, 02:36am) *
It's hardly an accurate depiction of an crucifixion for goodness' sake! It's so false - for one thing there is no blood. There would be a lot of blood!!!
QUOTE
Let the Yanks keep it, that's what I say.


Welcome to the boards logan, well we were short of a moron or two anyway tongue.gif
Crucifixions didn't normally incur the use of nails, too expensive, but used rope to bind the victims to a pole (cross bars were also not common) ... but that apart we're talkin' here about my hero DALI; for goodness sake, are y' aw right, or whit?

Stay awhile and have fun biggrin.gif
bilbo.s
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 9th Jul 2010, 02:03pm) *
Welcome to the boards logan, well we were short of a moron or two anyway tongue.gif
Crucifixions didn't normally incur the use of nails, too expensive, but used rope to bind the victims to a pole (cross bars were also not common) ... but that apart we're talkin' here about my hero DALI; for goodness sake, are y' aw right, or whit?

Stay awhile and have fun biggrin.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI_0tQdEA5k


9th July - official start of the silly season? Seems to me!
Zorro
I always believed it belonged to the City of Glasgow and not the Archdiocese of Glasgow so the City Council can loan it to whoever they like whenever they like whether the Pope is coming here or not.
Lennox
Logan, welcome to GG, pay thh no mind he's the leader of the moron's on here he just canny help it, oh he canny walk either so you'll be able to catch him easy wink.gif
TeeHeeHee
Actually, I just checked out Loganswell's web site.
In an other carnation he could have been my boss.
Interesting firm, would liked to have worked in the castle with the moron tongue.gif biggrin.gif
bilbo.s
QUOTE (Lennox @ 9th Jul 2010, 02:25pm) *
Logan, welcome to GG, pay thh no mind he's the leader of the moron's on here he just canny help it, oh he canny walk either so you'll be able to catch him easy



OMG - mair daft apostrophes laugh.gif tongue.gif Wal-mart daein a BOGOF ?
TeeHeeHee
Good lad, Moron II, I'll fend them of wi' my crutches while you cover ma back. laugh.gif laugh.gif
bilbo.s
QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 9th Jul 2010, 02:29pm) *
Actually, I just checked out Loganswell's web site.


Hmmm. Don't think much of the artwork... but there ye go! laugh.gif

BAMburgh Castle. It's all becoming clear now. rolleyes.gif
Glaswegian
QUOTE (Zorro @ 9th Jul 2010, 12:24pm) *
I always believed it belonged to the City of Glasgow and not the Archdiocese of Glasgow so the City Council can loan it to whoever they like whenever they like whether the Pope is coming here or not.

The painting belongs to the people of Glasgow.... not to Glasgow City Council. In any case, the council did NOT loan out this iconic work for a pittance.... the council merely sat on the sidelines, powerless to stop the quango bosses at Culture and Sport Glasgow deciding the fate of one of Glasgow's most-loved art works.
Luceo
QUOTE
One point worth mentioning is that anyone wishing to view the Dali painting while it is away for six months will have to pay ... including pensioners and children:


Adult: $18.00
Children (ages 6-17): $11.00
Senior (65+): $15.00
Student (ID required to enter): $15.00

Could be a nice little earner for the High Museum in Atlanta!

GG.

It is a little misleading to suggest that these admission charges are to view Dali's Christ of St John of the Cross. The charges are applied for admissions to Atlanta's High Museum all year round and not specifically for the Dali exhibition.

As for the Dali in question being "a nice little earner" for the Atlanta High Museum, who is to say that visitors to the Museum during the period in which the exhibition runs are there to see only the Dali painting on loan from Glasgow and not the Dali exhibition in its entirety? Perhaps visitors might even be there to see the other exhiibits on offer ...
GG
Everyone:
Please don't use the "Moron" word: it's a wee bit cheeky, and liable to take the discussion in a direction from which there is no return. sad.gif Also, please be extra nice to new posters ... it makes sense in the long run.

Glaswegian:
FYI: Culture and Sport Glasgow has been renamed 'Glasgow Life'.

Luceo:
The charges quite clearly relate to "anyone wishing to view the Dali painting while it is away", and have been confirmed as such by an authoritative source.

GG.
bilbo.s
Martin,

It is extremely difficult to be "extra nice" to a new poster, when their midden- sorry, maiden - speech is so scorn-worthy. If they make such ridiculous comments, they deserve all they get.

Just my opinion, as usual. smile.gif
GG
Thanks, Bilbo, I value your opinion.

All I would say though is that it can sometimes be very difficult for new posters to judge what type of board this is and, consequently, they might make a mistake in terms of tone. Other boards on the web are far more 'robust' than ours, whereas we are somewhat temperate (most of the time).

[Now back to this Dali shenanigans. laugh.gif ]

GG.
wee davy
"Temperate is it? Tem-per-it? I'll gies ye awe, Temperate, so a wullnae!!" As Rab C might have said
"$18 dollars?-nae chance pal! Thats 6 fish suppers bye the way!"
Cash-Ma-Giro
I still say it was a proddy who made the decision. Click to view attachment

cash.

(pst, cash- is a proddy dog)
TeeHeeHee
QUOTE (GG @ 9th Jul 2010, 07:14pm) *
Everyone:
Please don't use the "Moron" word: it's a wee bit cheeky, and liable to take the discussion in a direction from which there is no return. sad.gif Also, please be extra nice to new posters ... it makes sense in the long run

Since I threw the M word up in the first place then I suppose I have to carry the can for that ... however a wee bit cheeky was exactly as it was meant and a wee bit cheeky was exactly how the responses came back.
Glad you understood that.
And I understand your concern (so were quits tongue.gif )
GG
Thank you THH, however, "wee bit cheeky" was actually a euphemism for "rude", and I don't like rudeness on the boards. mellow.gif

Can we get back to the Dali painting being out of the country for the Pope's visit, thereby denying the city a valuable marketing opportunity which may have helped halt the rapid decline in Kelvingrove visitor numbers?

I have just received email confirmation from Atlanta that anyone wishing to view the Dali painting while it is on show there will have to pay $18* ($15 for pensioners, $11 for children) to get into the museum and marvel at the iconic painting. The Glasgow Dali (the highlight exhibit in the Dali exhibition at Atlanta) is sure to push up overall visitor numbers at the US museum. When the Atlanta held a more extensive exhibition last year, of works from the Louvre in Paris, High Museum director Michael Shapiro said:

QUOTE
We were able to raise over $16m in sponsorship, our membership increased, our attendance increased, and our visibility around the world was enhanced dramatically. That's priceless."

Maybe Mr Spalding has a point afterall?

(* the average price for a cinema ticket in the US is $7.95)

GG.
Heather
Although it may be bad timing for the Dali to be out of Glasgow when the Pope and many tourists are here, the loan was arranged before the Pope's visit was confirmed.
So it's just a case of, ' with hindsight we would all be clever'. smile.gif
frame
Only ever saw it one time and thought it wonderful. it produced quite an effect on me, something similer to the time I visited St Peter's Basilca in Rome.
I'm not of the catholic faith but I do believe that both these (world) treasures has to be seen by all the people of this planet.
So yes, I say let it go for a while, let other people see something of Glasgow's treasures. I firmly believe the Pope would be among the first to endorse that.
GG
QUOTE (Heather @ 10th Jul 2010, 11:32am) *
Although it may be bad timing for the Dali to be out of Glasgow when the Pope and many tourists are here, the loan was arranged before the Pope's visit was confirmed.
So it's just a case of, ' with hindsight we would all be clever'. smile.gif

Thanks Heather, though I actually meant that Mr Spalding may have been correct in thinking that Glasgow was due something more substantial (than £25,000) in return for loaning out the city's most-prized work for six months.

That said, do you know when Glasgow Life arranged the loan? Presumably when it was still Culture and Sport Glasgow? A quick search for confirmation that the Pope would visit Scotland shows:

QUOTE
Pope Benedict XVI will visit Scotland on September 16-17 this year
Jan 28 2010

THE Pope is set to visit both Glasgow and Edinburgh during a historic trip to Scotland on September 16 and 17.

And the leader of the Catholic Church is expected to address tens of thousands of worshippers at [sic] a major open air event at Glasgow Green.

The plans will spark excitement among Scotland's 850,000 Catholics and bring back memories of Pope John Paul II's historic mass at Bellahouston Park, Glasgow, in 1982, pictured below. ...

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish...86908-22000694/

And, even further back to last year, confirmation from Cardinal Keith O’Brien, the leader of Scotland’s Roman Catholics, that the Pope would visit Scotland in 2010:

QUOTE
Pope Benedict XVI to visit Scotland next year
24 September 2009

The leader of Scotland’s Roman Catholics has confirmed that Pope Benedict XVI will come to Scotland next year as part of his state visit to Britain.

Cardinal Keith O’Brien said details of the visit to Scotland have yet to be worked out but he hoped it would include an opportunity for the Pope to address the Scottish Parliament. The Cardinal said, however, that he thought this was unlikely. ...

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/125550-pope-be...tland-next-year

Does anyone know when the loan was agreed from the Glasgow end?

GG.
Guest
Loan of the Dali painting "Christ of St John of the Cross" to the Atlanta High Museum was announced on 2 March 2010. The pope's visit to Scotland was confirmed on 16 March 2010, a full two weeks later.
Mathieson
QUOTE (Guest @ 13th Jul 2010, 10:47pm) *
Loan of the Dali painting "Christ of St John of the Cross" to the Atlanta High Museum was announced on 2 March 2010. The pope's visit to Scotland was confirmed on 16 March 2010, a full two weeks later.

So is this a total non-story from the press trying to stir up some trouble out of nothing? The same press that roundly condemns Scottish society for religious strife? smile.gif
GG
It might be if those dates were accurate, however, the Pope's visit to Scotland was actually confirmed a long time before 16th March 2010.

Anyway, the dates are only one aspect of the concerns many Glaswegians have regarding this affair.

GG.
Cash-Ma-Giro
QUOTE (Mathieson @ 16th Jul 2010, 09:31pm) *
So is this a total non-story from the press trying to stir up some trouble out of nothing? The same press that roundly condemns Scottish society for religious strife? smile.gif


The same press that roundly condemn Scottish society for all strife, no doubt. biggrin.gif


cash.


Luceo
The date given by "Guest" for the Pope's visit to Scotland is confirmed by STV. Follow this link to see the source.

STV

QUOTE
It might be if those dates were accurate, however, the Pope's visit to Scotland was actually confirmed a long time before 16th March 2010.


It would be interesting to learn GG's date and his source.

Luceo
Java
Good morning Luceo, nice to see you posting. biggrin.gif

From my reading of the topic, GG's date of 28th January and the source (Daily Record) of that date are in post number 44.
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