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weementor
FOOTBALL: MADE IN SCOTLAND FOR THE WHOLE WORLD

England claims it gave the world The Beautiful Game. However, England is wrong. Their brand of football was kick and rush as opposed to pass and move - and it was a foreign legion of Scots who taught the world to play

According to research by football historians, there would be no modern game without the contribution of a bold generation of Scots.

Scottish colonialists, sailors, merchants and teachers were responsible for introducing The Beautiful Game to every corner of the Earth.

And although the Scottish game has lost its way, the football that is now played in Brazil, Argentina and Germany has its roots in a classic pass-and-move football style that was `Made In Scotland'.

Richard McBrearty, a historian at the Scottish Football Museum in Hampden, has been researching Scotland's world roots for the museum's Scots Away exhibit.

And he dismisses claims by our neighbours south of the border that it was they who gave the game to the world.

Richard says: "It's claimed that football was invented in England, but we now know that is not the case and the modern game definitely came from north of the border.

"There is historical evidence of the game being played up here as far back as 1424, but it probably goes back even further.

"The birth of the modern game was the Scotland-England match in Glasgow in 1872 - up until then, the English had played a hybrid game of rugby and football as we know it.

"There was no goalkeeper, no set number of players for each side, there was limited use of hands and no forward passing.

"It was only the Scottish game which developed these rules which have become part of the modern game, and it was the Scottish pass and run game which spread throughout the world.

"The English style was very individual, with lots of dribbling with the ball, but teams like Queen's Park used the pass much more widely. And it was that style which was widely copied because it was more attractive and successful."

The English game only changed in the late 1800s, when major teams down south started to pack their squads with Scots.

These original Anglo-Scots players were quickly lauded and nicknamed `The Scotch Professors', the first Liverpool side of 1892 were nicknamed The Macs, with 11 Scots in the line-up, while the Preston North End `Invincibles' side of 1889 included eight Scots.

And Jock Hamilton, one of the biggest Scots stars of the English game at the time, went on to help create the greatest footballing legacy in the world - in Brazil.

Strange as it may seem, there may never have been a Pele, a Zico or a Ronaldo if it hadn't been for three Scots.

Football was started there in 1894 by Charles Miller, who was born in Brazil to a Scottish father, and who helped found the Paulista League in 1901.

However, Miller preferred the English-style kick, rush and dribble football - it was the arrival of two Scots-born men that created Brazilian football as we know it.

When Paisley textile firm J & P Coats opened a thread mill in Sao Paulo in 1907, workers formed The Scottish Wanderers, who were one of most successful and popular teams in the league's early days.

Their star player was winger Archie McLean, who went on to play for the Sao Paulo state team, and was nicknamed `O Veadinho', meaning `the little deer'.

HIS fast and tricky ball control became the template for the Brazilian style, but it was Jock Hamilton who really impressed the Samba stars, as the first professional football coach in the country, in 1907.

Hamilton, from Ayr, was part of the Scottish exiles who ran Fulham in the early 1900s as coach and star player, and was poached by Brazilian side Paulistano to help promote and shape the game in the Amazon. He is still remembered as founding what is incorrectly known as the Systema Ingleza (English System) they still use, because the locals didn't know the difference between Scotland and England.

It was also a Scot who is credited with the birth of football in Brazil's greatest rivals - Argentina.

Glasgow-born Alexander Watson Hutton was a teacher at the St Andrew's School in Buenos Aires in the 1890s and started an Association Football side in 1882, earning the honorary title of `Father of Argentinian Football'.

The Scottish influence even extended to Argentina's 1986 World Cup-winning side. It included Jose Brown, a direct descendant of 1825 Scots emigrant James Brown and his all-conquering Brown dynasty, who made up much of the Argentina team in the early 1900s.

While Scotland have never been past the first round of the World Cup, the first team to ever win the trophy, Uruguay, owe some of the credit to the teachings of a Scottish railroad engineer.

Glasgow-born John Harley worked in the capital city of Montevideo and played for local side Penarol before becoming a coach.

He adopted the classic Scottish pass-and-move style, and his precise tactics won him the nickname "the Technician", as well as revolutionising the national game and ultimately leading to their 1930 World Cup triumph.

Canada's first club, Carlton FC of Toronto, was founded by a group of Scots in 1876 and was even affiliated to the SFA, while Scots were even more instrumental in the early football successes of the USA.

Dozens of Scottish league players - among the best in the world at the time - were invited to help form the US league in the 1920s, with the result that the SFA tried to ban the recruiting process, described as `The American Menace'.

Saturday's Record told the story of the Scots captain and coaches involved in the historic 1950 World Cup win over England, but 20 years earlier, five Scottish players starred for the USA in the tournament, alongside Scots coach Bob Millar.

Andy Auld, Jimmy Gallagher, Bart McGhee, Jim Brown and Sandy Wood were part of the USA team which made it to the 1930 semi-finals after either emigrating with their families or having been poached by the American league from Scots teams.

Scottish influence even spread as far as China - Glaswegian John Prentice's team, Shanghai Marine Engineers Institute FC, were affiliated to the SFA in 1888.

Back in Europe, ex-Celtic player Johnny Madden coached in Czechoslovakia in 1905, George Smith MacGregor helped inspire an early version of the German Bundesliga, and English coach Jimmy Hogan took Jock Hamilton's pass- and-move tactics to Austria and Hungary.

Historian Richard adds: "The tragedy is that after spreading passing football to every corner of the world, we lost our way.

"We taught the world to play the game, and then forgot how to do it ourselves."

Brian Mciver...for the Daily Record(4/8/2003)
bartom
wee mentor thank you very much for that I always felt that our tanner ba' players were far superior to those south of the border unfortunately we seem to have lost that skill, when I was home about 3 years ago I noticed that most of the places where we used to play fitba had signs up forbidding playing on them also kids can't play in the streets anymore because of cars I think that has a lot to do with the loss of skills, whereas in Africa, asia and sth america there are a lot of very poor people who do what we did as kids, make balls out of old newspapers or use tennis balls and that gives them the grounding in the control of the ball rolleyes.gif regards Tommy
oor mery
weementor,
Thanks for that! It's great to get on here and find such interesting information smile.gif
thebardau
This made excellent reading, wee mentor, & so I'm glad I actually poked my head into the Sports & Leisure forum. I didn't realise that Scotland has "lost the way" & i'll have to find out what this means. Reading bartom's post, it's hard for me to imagine a Scotland where wee boys aren't practising their skill on every available bit of ground.
jimmyd
Whit wis it Jackie Gleeson used to say.'' Oh how sweet it is "!!. Nice to know Wee Mentor ,thanks for that.I agree with Bartom ,it is a shame the kids can't get to develop their natural ability,also there are too many high tech things around now .Lets face it when we were wee boys,whit else could ye dae.Playing in the streets was it.
thebardau
And in the back courts too, didn't matter where you were, at home or visiting someone - you looked out the window anywhere, & there were always wee boys [& some not so wee], heidin' ba's of all kinds, up against the wall. Hour upon hour, some of them. Tennis balls, whatever. No wonder they were so good. I just assumed that this was still happening, silly me. The only sport I ever watch [sometimes] on the telly is soccer - am I allowed to call it that here?
jimmyd
Aye Bard,ye can call it that,cause it is too confusing with all these codes,Rugby Union,rugby leaugue,Aussie rules,all under the banner of football.I am hoping to be
on Satellite soon,so will be immersed in the ."Beautiful Game" cannae wait.
thebardau
So will someone please be kind enough to explain what "Scotland losing the way" means - I'm serious.
jimmyd
Bear with me now Bard,I have had a few o the grape.Any body that wants to correct me here ,please feel free to do so.
As you have read in previous posts Bard,Scottish players were sought after by the English teams,mainly for their skills and never say die qualities.That spirit that imbues the Scottish character. We always qualified for World Cup and European Championship finals. mind you never progressed very far.Nowadays ,with the influx of foriegn players,the young talent is not being recognised by the Scottish clubs.This has resulted in a dirth of quality players being available to play for Scotland. result is that we can't field a team of home grown talent ,able to compete on the world stage.Mind you Italy are sufferintg the same problem,as are Spain and other European nations.
So what you are hearing is, that for a nation,that has given the world the game as we know it, we have lost our way in terms of producing the fine natural talent, able to compete with the best in the world.
Mind you ,you and I now live in Australia,which is producing world class players ,so augers well for Aussie ,but not for dear old Scotland.. Did ah dae awright,WeeMentor ,Bartom ,Hubert ,Linzeh, an w aw the rest o you Haggis Bashers. PS ah'm no used to being this serious for so long .. unsure.gif unsure.gif
thebardau
That was expressed very lucidly, jimmy. [Cheers! & here's tae the guardian geese - mine's a Ballantine's the noo.] So does this mean that the hierarchy or powers-that-be in the various clubs, are spending big bucks on transfer fees for star foreign players - & not fostering young Scottish talent? Sorry I'm so ignorant about this, but I find the sports columns boring [apologies all!] & prefer instead to watch a decent game on the telly. Yet this assumption I'm making here surely can't be right - cos surely if it were, then Scotland would still be a presence in the World Cup?
[haggis-bashers - priceless!]
jimmyd
You have got it in wan Bard, too many foriegn players an no enough .,weans fae the back courts . sad.gif
jock
Maybe what we need is a return of the tenements so that the weans will have back courts and closes to play in. I still remember playing heid the (tennis) ba' in the close. You could even play when it rained!
hubert
Unfortunately Scottish football is at a very low ebb, our national team will be playing a couple of games in a week or two, sure hope they do well!
Watched Celtic and Livingston Saturday 5-1 Celtic, my wife came home from work later, and I said Livinston were terrible, and she said arent they the bottom of the league, well I didnt say what I wanted to say, for I thought it best to be polite, and with all due respect to the other Scottish teams, I said, there really are only two teams in Scotland and all the rest ARE the bottom of the league!
Didny work, she right away said you know what I mean, smart ass? LMAO rolleyes.gif
Catherine
Yo ya auld grump tongue.gif
Kin ah jist say.....anither ten odd years an they'll be beggin ma boys tae play fur Scotland..Ye heard it here furst laugh.gif
Surely tae God Martin's awa tae bed noo an ah kin blether!!
hubert
Yes they would be eligible for Scotland, but Canada has a team too?
Theres a good midfielder that was born in Canada, plays in the Bundus league in Germany, and is in the England national team, canny mind his name, so go and get me is name, that wull gie ye somethin tae dae?
Catherine
Aye....well ah might tongue.gif Haud oan laugh.gif
Catherine
Och ye mean Lee Owen Hargreaves??? Born 20th January 198tywan....plays wae Buyern Munich?... Peesacake tongue.gif
Naw....Hubert when ah read these posts Scotland NEEDS ma boys laugh.gif
hubert
Bayern Munich, Celtic get them in the Champions league, should be fun!
Hardgreaves thats him, a good player!
Catherine
Martins awa tae bed ya auld grump......feel free tae elabarate wae a natter why don't ye tongue.gif He'll no bump us aff till the morra laugh.gif
hubert
I have never been in the new chat thing, its kind of scary for me, got to go and e mail some people, not being anti social jist will talk later?
Very busy these days, and bragging, fitba the morra and painted the french doors at the back inside the hoose!
Saw Celtic tae, daein hudrids of things?
linzeh
QUOTE (thebardau @ 15th Aug 2003, 08:51 AM)
So will someone please be kind enough to explain what "Scotland losing the way" means - I'm serious.

i'm not sure who was 1st to do it....but when the managers decided punting up the park was the way to get by.. that was the beginning of the end for the "tanner ba" players.....and has left us chasing our tails ever since....solid defenders..some quality mid-fielders.....but no Law..Baxter..etc...etc..

Can anyone tell me the last out n out scottish forward to make it in one of the bigger leagues??..Serie A..spanish league??...EPL???

Duncan Ferguson??.....never reached his potential...

forgive my memory but i'm thinking we'd have to go back to Dalglish??

so my answer is..this was happening long b-4 the influx of "non-scottish" players...
Tusker
This isn't going to win me any votes in the popularity contest, but...

Scotland's national fitba' team didn't "lose the way" because they didn't know the way to begin with! If you look at things honestly, with an unbiased eye, and ask yourself "When was the last time Scotland was regarded as a 'World Power' in soccer?" you'd have to answer, "Never." Scotland's team simply doesn't rate on the world stage. Last time I looked at the world rankings (about a year ago I think) they were rated as 54th or 57th in the world, behind teams like Bahrain, the Outer Hebrides, Cyprus and the Chinese Province of Huan Nang, for God's sake. Have they improved quite a bit? Where do they stand now? 49th? 44th?

Yet every time there's a World Cup (or Euro Cup, now) the Scottish newspapers trumpet the opinion of some posturing blowhards, who have to sell newspapers -- so they write that this may be Scotland's cup (Ha! Ha!) because they have a new manager/new players/new trainer/new outlook/new boots/new strip. Nothing changes. This scenario has played out repeatedly since I was a kid in the 1950's -- and was probably played out time and time again, long before that too!

Yet people fall in line every time behind the Pied Piper, and expectations are raised once again, only to be cruelly dashed when reality hits and the Scots players come up against some 3rd rate national team who defeat the "New" Tartan Terrors very handily. As long as Scotland can beat England occasionally -- then we're back on the road to becoming great again. Nobody ever asks, "But when was the last time we were great?" And nobody ever asks, "If 3rd rate teams can beat us -- what does that make us?"

I don't have a magical solution to this problem, and I don't know all or any of the answers -- so please don't ask. I'm only trying to remove blinkers and point out the harsh reality of the situation. Scotland are NOT a world class team, never have been, and may never be. Just because they're Scottish doesn't automatically mean they're great, and that they were just unlucky not to win. Is anyone else sick to death of hearing excuses for poor performances -- or am I the only one?

That may not be news.....but it is reality (to paraphrase)
jimmyd
Ye know whit Tusker ,you are dead right,as was Linzeh in his post, {Pick yersel up Lindsay ,I am agreeing wi you }.We tend to get carried a way with the fantasy,and forget the reality.I remember the big whinge was that they had to many Anglo's,in the team.So some manager played mostly home based players ,and we still got gubbed.Mind you good or bad ,it is still great to see them run oan the park.See hope rains supreme in the heart of the optimist.
whyteinch
Happy days .......

The world’s oldest national trophy: the Scottish Football Association Challenge Cup was made in 1873. Sixteen teams entered the competition, which was won by Queen’s Park FC, who beat Clydesdale 2-0 in the 1874 final.Today the winning team is presented with the original trophy, but take home an exact replica.

Championship of the World trophy: in 1888 Renton of Dunbartonshire, the Scottish Cup holders, beat West Bromwich Albion of Birmingham, the FA Cup winners, in a match dubbed as the ‘Championship of the United Kingdom and the World’. In appalling weather Renton won 4-1

Click
http://www.scottishfootballmuseum.org.uk/
Tusker
Whyteinch -- 1874 Scottish Champs and 1888 U.K. and "World" Champs???
......Aye, but what have they done *lately*? lol...
weementor
Tusker.... just a wee bit of irony.
jimmyd
Well said WeeMentor,an how are the guid folk in Nulson these days??./
hubert
Football has changed alot since it first began, and will continue to do so, no matter how a fan may wish it to be?
Myself I have reasons for hoping Celtic go to play their league and other competitions in England, with Glasgow still being their home base?
Eg, Celtic lined up against Bayern Munich last Wednesday, and there was one Scot in the lineup, Jackie McNamara.
In fact I believe Rangers lined up against Stuutgart the same day, and they had no Scottish players in their lineup?
weementor
Hi ...Jimmyd..... have you some family in 'Nulson' ... Docherty perchance...Neilston guid folk doing fine...however, this can't be said about the Neilston Juniors.

Click here to see photo.

Bobby McCance are you out there..drop a wee email

Regards
hubert
Got your PM Ian thanks, you should post that in the thread its good, and I agree with some of your sentiments, however eg, if there was a ban or limits on foreign players in Scotland Celtic and Rangers can at present forget of even trying to compete in the CL.
Football has taken off in places like never before, and the talent is improving, I am like you a fan of Scotland but unlike you I dont get to the games?
I honestly dont think there is any system, that would change things in Scotland to improve and compete with the rest of the world in international football, cause if you interfere with the club teams, well I am afraid Scotland would not even be on the map?
One big factor is population, yes there are teams that are better than Scotland with less population, but most countries have many more players to choose from?
Weementor its no often you see the goalie being the smallest in defense?
Are you in that team?
iancameron
Thanks for your reply Hubert, and I agree with you that football is on the increse in other area,s of the World, but in fact it is on the decrease in England, at grassroots level that is. Here in the Plymouth area in Devon we had over 80 teams playing non pro football on a Saturday, and we had two Sunday leagues with about 60 team each, that was around 10 years ago. Today I have 36 teams on a Saturday, and one Sunday league with 42 teams. There are numerous reasons for this,ie, Saturday is now for most a normal working day, the cost of running a team has gone up, especially for those teams who use Council pitches and last but not least there is no advancement for these players. As I said, 10 years ago you would get several pro club scouts coming to matches to watch local players, that is.nt the case today as most scouts will be at youth matches, and when I say youth I am talking about from 11 up to 15 years of age, and unfortunatly the player who is in the late teens, early twentys has passed his sell by date ( apart from a few acceptions). This situation has had a knock-on effect all the way up to pro,s. The main growth in football is in the African nations, where poverty has made the determination of their up and coming footballers more determined to make the grade. I can remember as a young boy, my grandfather took me every week to watch our local club in Pollokshaws, The Pollok, and remember Bobby Collins and Bobby Evans moving from Pollok to Celtic for a transfer fee of £50 each, this being the maximum at the time. This would not happen now as both of them would have been too old. In my opinion those in charge of the national game should bring back wage capping, this would deter foreign players coming over for the money, it would also give clubs the benifit of using that money saved in wages to go on better facilities in recruiting and training of home grown youngsters. Also if we had a national training school we could improve the ability of all our senior clubs youngsters, not just the few who have the cash. Finally I would say that football is a peoples sport, and no matter what team we support, there is nothing better than to see our national team do well.

Ian Cameron
Tusker
Much of what iancameron says makes a lot of sense with regard to the state of the game today in the U.K. Hubert also points out that on both Celtic & Rangers teams "home-grown" talent is almost non- existent. Other U.K. clubs are equally guilty of hoping to succeed by signing high-priced imports to the detriment of the "local" player.

But what price success? Kill the game in the U.K. so U.K.-based teams can win the Champions League, using foreign players? Will the fans appreciate this? Will they follow teams that don't have a single U.K. player on board?

The simple answer is a resounding "Yes". Because most U.K. soccer fans don't think about the club game on a national level. They're only interested in seeing the team they support win European cups and championships -- and to hell with all of the other U.K. teams. If their club has to sign eleven exorbitantly-priced foreign players to do so -- then so be it! If that wins cups while killing soccer for U.K. players, then that's just tough. So long as "their" team wins.

A salary cap unfortunately won't help in the slightest. Let's face it, would any of the British players now employed by foreign clubs return to play for U.K. teams if they were forced to accept lower wages and play on a "lower-class" team? (And with the exception of a few teams, most U.K. clubs are considered lower-class on the European circuit whether you're prepared to accept that fact or not. I'm not prepared to argue this point.) Even worse, would future rising stars in the U.K. remain in a salary-controlled market, or would they take the opportunity to make more money and play on a "better" team elsewhere? A salary cap isn't the answer.

Also, take a look at the popular sports in North America, if you want to see the face of U.K. soccer in coming years. Pro basketball, baseball and ice hockey all have numerous foreign players -- despite the immense size of the population base in the U.S. And the U.S. mainland apparently can't even provide enough talented U.S. citizens to play their National Sport at a major-league level -- despite the immense population base and the fact that they have an extremely well-organized baseball system from the kindergarten level up. They're now importing Japanese players, and the Pro Leagues are filled with players of many other nationalities. The same applies to basketball and ice hockey.

The average sports fan will support "their" team. It doesn't matter if they live in St. Louis, New York, Manchester or Glasgow. And if their team is staffed by high-priced Ethiopians, Tiawanese, Hindustani's and Eskimo's -- who cares?? So long as their team wins.

The U.K. soccer clubs are faced with a Catch-22 situation. If they don't sign foreign players, they can't compete against the European teams, who scoop up most of the good players by offering them a king's ransom. If U.K. clubs can't compete in Europe, they don't make the money they need to sign, or keep, expensive foreign players to maintain or "improve" the club. And if U.K teams DO sign foreign players, then U.K. players have to be displaced to make room. This in turn causes a trickle-down effect, in that young U.K. players are no longer considered for positions on professional teams, unless of course they're truly outstanding. And the Dennis Law's, Jim Baxter's and Ian Beckham's of the UK soccer world are few and far between. So foreign players are then signed in an effort to "fill the gaps" and maintain a high enough standard to compete at a European level.

It's a never-ending circle and the whole crux of the matter comes down to one thing and one thing only. MONEY! The club boards want it, the players want more of it, and the club's shareholders want it. Soccer's a business, plain and simple, and fans are just a means of making money. What do they want for their money? Team success at home and in Europe. To compete in Europe you have to pay higher wages to attract quality players. That takes money. Money is earned by competing in the lucrative European theatre. How do you earn the right to compete there? By winning at home, and this requires signing quality players. What does this take? Money! How do you earn money. By competing in European........Whoops! Here we go again....

It's really simple. The days of yesteryear are gone. Big business is the face of today's soccer, whether we like it or not. Weaker clubs will fold, or amalgamate with stronger clubs. If smaller clubs do survive, they'll probably end up playing in the non-professional Junior leagues with Petershill and Maryhill. We may not like it. But that's the future....
hubert
I sure would like to reply in detail to both your posts Ian and Tusker, but alas I dont have the knowledge or memory to do so, where I would make much sense?
Yes Bobby Collins did play for Pollock, an uncle of mine on my mothers side played against him, and I was told he played him oot the game? Well Collins to me was a star in fitba at the highest level!
Even the national game has changed immensely, there are many players on teams throughout the world that were not born in their respective countries. I dont need to go into details here?
So in essence there is a correlation to club and country?
Yes there are many fans that dont give a hoot about their country team, then also for many years there have been many players that for one reason or another have refused to wear the jersey of their country, including comments like its the club that pays my wages. Something I dont agree with, the country should have certain rights to players?
Ian you say football is a peoples sport, lots of people cant afford the price of a ticket. And I doubt this will change?
Scottish players continue to go to England for the money, and I dont blame them, what happens in alot of cases, they dont get into the first team, so what chance do they get to play for Scotland?
Tusker you are decrying the average fan, in regards to club versus country, I dfont disagree, but take Celtic for example their fans want new signings, McFadden could have been one of them, and stayed in Scotland, but no, Celtics board inmy opinion are the problem, fans really dont have much say in anything, look who are buying into teams, not fans but money people from everywhere but the country of the club?
This will continue, fitba is no longer a sport its business!
Your comments on the US sports is a good analogy, but although America is huge in population, they have and are continuing to expand teams in all sports to all cities, this is also going to continue, again its big business.
When I came to Canada in 59 there were only 6 major hockey teams, dont know how many there is now? Same with the growth of baseball and basketball, also the average family cant afford the cost of going to these games?
The world is getting smaller, noo theres an understatement, look at the work and companies that people once worked for, and where are the jobs, its in another thread elsewhere in the GG, Tumchie touches on it and others, in other threads?
I remember working Saturday morning in Scotland regular shift, then that was stopped, now work weeks all over the world are not regular but staggered, good lord I am glad I was born when I was?
Och lives no bad, its great being retired, living a life o Riley.
Jist a couple of other things coming to mind, Englands national team coach is Swedish and oors is German! LoL
And Dunfermline have artificial turf, jist heard Hibs want to get it tae!
Tusker
QUOTE: "Tusker you are decrying the average fan, in regards to club versus country, I dfont disagree,...."

......Well...I think I'm only stating the obvious, so I'm glad we agree on this.

QUOTE: "...but take Celtic for example their fans want new signings, McFadden could have been one of them, and stayed in Scotland, but no, Celtics board inmy opinion are the problem,...."

......But Celtic's board only reflects the overall face of modern-day soccer. They can't dictate the path the soccer world will follow, outside their own club, although they're part of the herd heading along that path. The fans want new signings? Yes, but who do they want? Alonzo Bertolini, Jean-Claude L'Arousse, Dagmar Olafson or Tommy McGregor? The fans are every bit as guilty as the board of directors in adopting the "if it's foreign, it must be better" line of thought. And incidentally, if the board of directors don't give the fans what they want, the club starts losing market share -- and that's why board executives are voted out of a job by the shareholders. Lower fan base = lower income = lower shareholder dividends, and of course, less money to sign expensive players. It all revolves around MONEY.

QUOTE: ".....fans really dont have much say in anything,..."

.....Without the fan base, the clubs don't make MONEY -- which is the prime reason for their existence these days. Would a large company pay let's say Alloa or Stirling Albion as much money to wear their logo on their team jersey, as they would pay Celtic or Rangers? How about in-ground advertising? How about fees paid to televise games? If your team can only draw a support of a few thousand fans every week, you're also not going to sell a lot of programs/souvenirs etc compared to the clubs with the larger fan base.....MONEY!

QUOTE: "....look who are buying into teams, not fans but money people from everywhere but the country of the club?"

Agreed. But soccer clubs aren't run to provide an opportunity for "the wee boay doon the road" to put on a fitba' display in front of his worshipping parents. They're a business, and like any other business that requires the influx of large amounts of capital, a certain financial return is expected on the capital injected. Cups and championships are purely incidental, from a business standpoint. They'd be totally unimportant if the same amount of cash could be generated without them. And there's absolutely nothing stopping you or I from taking over Celtic, Rangers or any other club, and running it the way we think best. Other than money -- or lack of it. The same applies to IBM or Microsoft or any other business.

I'm sure the boardmembers on any club don't think, "Maybe we should offer as much money as it takes to sign Beckham. I think the fans would like that." The investors may love the game, but they also don't invest their money with the idea of losing a few hundred thousand quid every year. If they put their money in the bank, at least they'd be sure of earning some interest. So they want as high a return as possible on their investment.

So ideally, the team wins trophies, the games are televised and TV rights are sold, the advertisers pay more, more fans pay higher prices to attend games and buy food, drinks and souvenirs at the concessions - so more money can be charged for concession/souvenir/team shirt rights. etc. etc.

As I said...It all boils down to one thing. MONEY! If someone can figure out how to play eleven U.K. players on a U.K. team, keep the fans, players and shareholders happy, win lots of domestic and European trophies and make money as well -- they could name the club they want to manage. Sell star players or fail to win trophies, and excuses can be, and are made. But remove money from the equation and the whole thing collapses.....Soccer is a business. If a business can't make money, it collapses....
hubert
I have mentioned this before, a friend of mine in Toronto, called me on the phone when I was living in San Diego, this was the early 70s, he was complaining about Rangers signing English players, him being a Gers fan, well I told him then, if the player came from Timbuktu, or outer Mongolia, and was good he would play on my team, well I still feel that way!
Football wont go back to what it was, I even remember in the 50s fans complaining about Anglos playing for the national team,
I accept the present conditions. cause frankly its the way its going to be.
If Celtic need to sign foreingers, to win trophies, I will accept that.
Heck I have said often enough Celtic get out of Scottish fitba!
Also Rangers are in big debt I believe, they also won the treble, good for them!
I want Celtic to win the treble this season, if it takes debt, thats Ok by me!
Tusker
"I accept the present conditions. cause frankly its the way its going to be."

.....Yes. Unfortunately, I think you're right.

"If Celtic need to sign foreingers, to win trophies, I will accept that."

So if you accept this, then you have to be prepared to accept the eventual demise of football for the greater majority of U.K. players, as most teams will be composed almost entirely if not totally, of foreign players. And the fact that any good U.K. players won't be seen playing for U.K. teams, as they'll be playing for European teams. So "Scottish" football will exist in name only. It's almost like moving Athletico Bilbao to Glasgow and re-naming them Townhead Athletic.

Good Scottish/Irish/Welsh players have been going to the English leagues for years, so it's only the next step up for the best of these players to get into European soccer

Further, as the U.K. clubs don't have the finances of the Europeans, the U.K. teams will be composed almost predominately of "over-the-hill" aging European stars, and young Europeans trying to make their name so they can move into the "big leagues".

So..........Taking all of the above into account, why would a U.K. club spend money to support youth teams and scouting sytems in Britain, to find "prospects" who may require years of polishing, when the money can be spent to help purchase an aging European who can step into the first team immediately?

Not a pretty picture for U.K. football in general, and Scottish football in particular.....but there lies the future.
jimmyd
For the past number of years ,I have been unable to watch Scottish football.Recently had satellite TV installed.Watched Celts and Motherwell,then Last week.,Gers and Dundee.Found it hard to relate to the teams,there seems to be little passion in the game.All very technical stuff.Some good players ,but to me it was not Celts and Rangers.Will probably take me a wee while to tune into it.The Crowds could hardly be heard ,and it was American commentators{ ESPN}. sad.gif

Wee Mentor,I don't have rellies there ,lived in B'rheid,and worked in Shanks for a few years, back in the late 50/60s.
Hubert have a closer look at the pic Wee Mentor posted,you will note a very young Dixie Deans.
hubert
I am afraid not Jimmy, I left a long time ago, and its only recently three years that I have seen the team on a regular basis, I always got the scores but never seen games, worked all over, and games years ago were not televised as like now!
The morra I will see the Lyon game live beamed over by Setanta, at the casino!
Melody
Hail Hail! to my bhoys, hubert jimmyd and all the rest! It's a good night in the old town tonight! Happy faces coming home!
hubert
Yes Melody I posted in the CL thread cause this was a CL game, but thats ok Melody, Larsson was great, and Celtic did great after missing a penalty once again.
Saturday its an OF game, first this season should be a doozy, widny surprise me if it was a draw?
hubert
Uefa I think it was unprecedentedly gave a fair sports award to all the Celtic fans for the marvelous behaviour or the thousands that went to Final of the Uefa Cup.
The Scottish national fans are recognized as being well behaved and sporting, but this Celtic award is to me more than a faither in the caps of Celtic and Scottish football fans throughout the world!
I type this with great pride although I dont go to games. Hail Hail!
If anyone wants details of this go to Sky spoirts or the Scottish football, the presentation was just before the Lyon game last night.
Scotland can continue to be proud in regards to football!
hubert
Just got back from the Casino, Rangers 0 Celtic 1, what a game both teams did themselves proud very good football, Celtic defense was immense, and the Rangers goalie Klos was brilliant.
The atmosphere at the Ibrox Stadium appeared to be out of this world.
Unfortunately for Scottish player participation, there were 18 different nationalities on the park maybe one Scot canny mind?
However the performance from both teams fitba wise was superb!
Lindzeh any comments? LoL
betty2
Great game at ibrox the day i applaud both teams rolleyes.gif
hubert
Scotlands under 21s beat Lithuania 3-2 Friday, sure hope the big team can follow suit, Saturday 3pm Hampden i think?
weementor
Caley fray
ANGRY Inverness Caley Thistle fans have begun an internet petition protesting about the vote excluding their club from the Scottish Premier League. The petition's authority is fatally undermined by numerous signatures from cartoon figures ranging from Bugs Bunny to George W Bush.
Dr Who joins them, pledging: "By the horns of Zanthropay, my two hearts bleed for Inverness Caley! In a bid to put time back on a stable continuum I have consorted with my learned friend, Professor Thoscales, who agrees the following formula is the only remedy – unfortunately, I cannot time-skip and influence the vote as the Tardis is in for its MOT: SPL minus dissenting chairman plus ICT equals fairplay. I must go now, earthlings, as K9 requires walkies."
Isobel
For anyone interested in the ladies soccer, Canada and the US ladies under nineteen have both qualified for the word cup.Pretty good going .They both did very well last time around. Wondered if Scotland or England have any ladies teams.
iancameron
Scotland and England have womens teams, and England will host the UEFA Cup in 2005
Isobel
Well I guess for the next wee while I will be an English fan with my husband. He will be glued to the TV tomorrow for the world cup game. I wish Scotland had made it. Who do you think will be the big winners this time?
iancameron
A good outsider is the Czech Republic, at the moment they are 14/1, I,v got £20 on them, plus £20 for France to beat England 2-1.
Isobel
Good god you come from the same neck of the woods as my inlaws, they are from Exmouth,Devon. Surprised you are not supporting England.That was quite something Greece winning over Portugal.I hate for you to lose your 20 but sorry Ian I must root for the boys. rolleyes.gif
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