Remember ' The Menage' ?, Merged Topic Options

[Jupiter]

I joined in one when I was younger but there was only three of us.

[benny]

For those purporting to be familiar with all languages, generally proficient in none, the translation from "family" to "house hold" is purely semantic and hardly syntactical. It would appear that those indulging in pedantic and supercilious appraisals of the proficiency, or other wise, of the language acumen of others, would be well advised to remove their digit from the google translation button, or from that refuge of the autodidact, "wikkipaedia", and attempt to obtain a meaningful education at a recognized institute.

Would the Larousse Online Dictionary meet with your approval, O Wise One?

http://www.larousse.com/en/dictionaries/french/menage


nom masculin
(ancien français mesnage, avec l'influence de maisnie, famille, du latin populaire mansionata, de mansio, -onis, maison)

* Couple vivant en commun et constituant une communauté domestique : Un ménage sans enfants.
* Ensemble de ce qui concerne les affaires domestiques, l'entretien de la famille, en particulier ensemble des travaux concernant la propreté d'un intérieur : S'occuper du ménage de toute la famille. Vaquer aux soins du ménage.
* Unité statistique élémentaire de population, constituée par une ou plusieurs personnes (célibataire, famille, communauté) qui, quels que soient les liens qui les unissent, occupent un même logement à titre de résidence principale, et envisagée dans sa fonction économique de consommation. (Pour le célibataire, on utilise de plus en plus le terme de monoménage.)


Ah don't pretend tae speak aw languages, but ah think ah could take a stab at "couple vivant en commun et constituant une communaute (sorry aboot the missin accent) domestique". "A couple livin thegither and constitutin a domestic community" - sounds helluva like a household tae me.

[Dunvegan]

Tout le monde peut parler Francais, mais comme la vache Espagnol du Mollier.....ou les autrui

[Dunvegan]

"Woe to the makers of literal translations, who by rendering every word weaken the meaning. It is indeed by so doing that we can say the letter kills and the spirit gives life"
Voltaire.

[bilbo.s]

"Woe to the makers of literal translations, who by rendering every word weaken the meaning. It is indeed by so doing that we can say the letter kills and the spirit gives life"
Voltaire.

I quite agree with this statement, but we were only translating one word.

[Dunvegan]

I quite agree with this statement, but we were only translating one word.

Voltaire did say word and not words per say. What he was getting at is there can be no literal translation from say a Romance language to a Teutonic one due to nuance of value and propensity for cultural perspective. Generally the reason I shy away from translation is that it requires a degree in both target languages and a translators degree on top of that. There is also a scholastic element that requires a mutual exposure to the target languages over a period of time.
This even exists between colloquial expressions within the diversity of a single language, such as Irish English, Scottish, Australian and American English.
How would you translate these to an American or Australian???
"yer bums oot the windae" "the ba's oan the slates" "he could walk under a snake wearin' a Lum hat"

[Chrissie]

Dunvegan - I just read that last post 3 times and still don't know what it is but think maybe it's about translating one language to another.

Anyhoo, the last comments were worth the read.

[bilbo.s]

Dunvegan,

I agree with much you say, but you are talking about the translation of idioms, which is impossible to do literally. That is quite irrelevant to my point, that the translation of the French word " ménage" , with reference to the Scottish usage, would more appropriately be "household".

As with many words, the dictionary reveals a variety of meanings. French dictionaries have several meanings for that word, one of which relates to domestic management. I feel that this is clearly the connection with Scots, rather than any family connotation.

[benny]

Voltaire did say word and not words per say. What he was getting at is there can be no literal translation from say a Romance language to a Teutonic one due to nuance of value and propensity for cultural perspective. Generally the reason I shy away from translation is that it requires a degree in both target languages and a translators degree on top of that. There is also a scholastic element that requires a mutual exposure to the target languages over a period of time.
This even exists between colloquial expressions within the diversity of a single language, such as Irish English, Scottish, Australian and American English.
How would you translate these to an American or Australian???
"yer bums oot the windae" "the ba's oan the slates" "he could walk under a snake wearin' a Lum hat"

Ah take it Voltaire didnae know much aboot Latin? Dae ye mean only Freemasons make good translators - they're aboot the only people ah know wi three degrees. Ah wunner how many people in Scotland who're bilingual in Gaelic an English hiv three degrees, or indeed how many Asian shopkeepers,who seem perfectly capable o speakin their ain language and English, hiv three degrees? If ye're talkin aboot translation of complex literary works, mebbe, but millions o people manage tae translate everyday conversations withoot even wan degree.

[wombat]

benny sez: but millions o people manage tae translate everyday conversations withoot even wan degree.

yeah but only after yie translate it fer them

[Dunvegan]

I have railed on before about "house" and " household" and" " home and can do until the subject mires down in pedantic boredom. I have studied with Chinese language translators, some of who were army officers, who could make no mistake, cultural or otherwise, my friend and classmate, a young lady, of only 21 years, was fluent in 5 languages as she was raised in those cultures, however she could not act as a translator as this required extensive further training. I also had a translator in my class and his knowledge of ancient Chinese was to me astounding. Single words may jump out of dictionaries but remain just that without a knowledge of cultural context.

[jamcat]

Dae ye mind yer mammy runnin' a menage? . All the neighbours would come tae oor hoose and write their names on a wee bit o paper , pit them in a big glass bowl, then take turns at drawing oot tae see whit week they would get their money. Naebody wanted the first week.... Then for weeks after I had tae go roon the womens hooses collectin their money for ma mother.

Aye ah remember the thing too, my ma sometime had a go at them and you paid a pound or two a week. Another memory of the menage was there was a few instances where the person who was running it would bugger off with the money when the done a moonlight flitting and all those who hadn't had there chance were mad.

[Dunvegan]

Yesterday when I was taking the bags out of the car, I for no apparent reason asked my wife to bring up the "messages". She knew what I meant but said she had never heard the word in North America.
"Whaur's yer maw"
"Shes jist gan' doon the shoaps tae get the MESSAGES" Try translating that out of cultural context.

[zascot]

Yesterday when I was taking the bags out of the car, I for no apparent reason asked my wife to bring up the "messages". She knew what I meant but said she had never heard the word in North America.
"Whaur's yer maw"
"Shes jist gan' doon the shoaps tae get the MESSAGES" Try translating that out of cultural context.

Probably means she gone tae the pub or the bookies.

[TeeHeeHee]

I often wondered where that expression came from.
"Gonnae dae me a wee message son?"
"Aw maw, sen' hur. Ah went the last wan!"
"But you take yer wheel an' gur', you'll be faster!"