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Glasgow Boards/Forums _ Family History _ Are The Scots Really Irish? Dalriada, Gallowglass

Posted by: Paul Kelly 29th Aug 2006, 09:19am

I have sometimes heard it said that the Scots are really Irish. Is this true? I am not an expert on ancient Scottish history but, from the various historical accounts which I have read over the past few years, I now realize that the Lowland Scots probably had more in common with the northern English than they had with the Highland Scots.
The Lowland Scots and the English used to refer to the Highland Scots as the 'Wild Irish'. So who are the Highland Scots?

I understand that in ancient times the part of Scotland to the north of the Forth-Clyde valley was occupied by a mysterious tribe known as the Picts. The part of Scotland to the south of the Forth-Clyde valley was occupied by the Britons - the ancient P-Celtic (Brythonic) (Brittonic) people of England, Wales and Southern Scotland - from whom the island of Britain gets its name.

In the late 6th century, large parts of Northern England and Southern Scotland - though not Wales - were colonized by the Germanic Angles (English), who had been staying in southern and central England since the 5th century. Edinburgh was in fact given its name by the Angles. In the 7th century, the Angles even pushed north of the Firth of Forth into Fife and Angus - lands occupied by Picts.

At the start of the 6th century (c500), a Q-Celtic (Goidelic) (Gaelic) tribe from the north of Ireland called the Scoti migrated and settled in what is now roughly modern day Argyll and drove the Picts from the area. The Scoti (Irish) formed a kingdom in Argyll - including Lorn (Oban), Loch Awe, Cowal, Kintyre and the surrounding islands - called Dal Riata (Dalriada). In fact, it was an extension of the kingdom of Dal Riada which already existed in the north of Ireland. So, by the mid 6th century, the Scottish Highlands were occupied by Picts, with a group of Scoti (Irish) in its Argyll region. It is estimated that the Picts outnumbered the Scoti by at least 5 to 1. Over the coming centuries, the Picts and Scoti (and Vikings - who colonized many of the islands and coastal regions of Scotland at the start of the 9th century - ) would intermarry and become what we call the modern Highland Scots. This was a very slow process. In fact, the Picts and Scoti didn't fully become one people until the mid 9th century and it seems that the Argyll region - Dalriada - had much stronger links with Ireland than it had with the rest of the Scottish Highlands between the 6th and 9th centuries.

There are 2 main reasons why the Scoti and Picts finally united in the mid 9th century. Firstly, they had a common enemy - The Vikings - who had crushed the Picts in the northern Highlands in the early 9th century and who had also seized control of the Dalriadic islands - Arran, Bute, Gigha, Islay, Jura, Colonsay, southern Mull and Iona (the religious centre of the Scoti.) The other main reason was a common Christianity - Irish (Scoti) monks such as St Columba and his successors had been slowly converting the Picts to Christianity. The Scoti would have spoken Old Irish Gaelic. When the Scoti and Picts started intermarrying and becoming a single people, a new language - Scottish Gaelic - evolved. Some Picts also started using the prefix Mac in front of their names as was the custom of the Scoti (Irish). Although the Picts heavily outnumbered the Scoti, the ancient Pictish language eventually disappeared completely (possibly because the Picts associated Christianity with Gaelic.) This has led some historians to say the Picts were absorbed by the Scoti. However, the colourful lifestyle of the Picts was retained in the wearing of Tartan by Highlanders. (The Irish don't wear Tartan.)

Scottish Gaelic and Modern Irish Gaelic are both derived from Old Irish Gaelic - the language of the Scoti and other ancient Irish tribes - and both are classified as Q-Celtic languages (unlike Welsh and Cornish which are classified as P-Celtic languages.) However, in general, Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic are not mutually intelligible. Moreover, in the present day, the Irish Gaelic spoken in Donegal (northwest Ireland) is different from that spoken in Galway (west Ireland) which in turn is different from that spoken in Kerry (southwest Ireland). Similarly the Scottish Gaelic spoken in the northwest Highlands of Scotland is different from that spoken in the southwest Highlands (Argyll). Interestingly, the Scottish Gaelic spoken on the island of Islay is similar to the Irish Gaelic spoken in County Donegal. This might have something to do with the fact that Islay was part of the ancient Scoti (Irish) kingdom of Dalriada.

Finally, unlike in Ireland, Gaelic has never been spoken by the majority of the people in Scotland. The people of southern and east-central Scotland have long spoken a dialect of English known as Lallans and the people from the northeast of Scotland have long spoken a dialect of English known as Doric. Gaelic was the language of the Highlanders, not the Lowlanders, and Lowlanders have always outnumbered Highlanders.

In conclusion, it is certainly true that the Scoti were an Irish tribe who settled in the southwest highlands of Scotland around the start of the 6th century and who gave their name to the modern nation of Scotland. However, there are many other peoples/tribes who have contributed to the ethnic makeup of the modern Scottish people such as the Britons, the Angles (English), the Vikings and of course the Picts. Moreover, in the 12th century, groups of Flemings (Dutch) and Normans (French-English) settled in much of southern, east-central and northeastern Scotland and intermarried with the indigenous Lowlanders.

Other more recent arrivals to Scotland such as the large number of 19th century Irish immigrants and the smaller groups of Italians and East European Jews have also contributed to the ethnic makeup of the modern Scottish people. (And, of course, there have been even more recent arrivals to Scotland than these 3 groups.)

Some experts say the Picts (the original people of Northern Scotland) were a P-Celtic people and were related to the P-Celtic Britons (the original people of England, Wales and Southern Scotland). However, other experts say the Picts were not related to the Britons. They claim the Picts were not even Celtic and that their origins remain a mystery.

Posted by: valros 29th Aug 2006, 03:50pm

Your posts are always interesting to read Paul and I learn something each time--thank you smile.gif

Valros

Posted by: Paul Kelly 30th Aug 2006, 08:31am

Valros,

Thanks for your kind comments.

Paul

Posted by: rdem 30th Aug 2006, 09:17am

Nicely done Paul:

If I may just add a further explanation of the difference bewteen the "P" and "Q" celts, and why they are referred as such.

To simpify things, The Gaelic languages, Scottish found in the highlands and islands of Scotland and Cape Breton, Canada, Manx found in The Isle of Man and Irish Gaelic found in the Gaeltacht or western Ireland and is an offical language in Ireland are all "sister" languages and have a common root in Old Irish and are known as the "Q" Celtic.
Their "cousin" languages are the "P" group which include Welsh spoken in Wales, and was spoken in England prior to the arrival of the Saxons, Cornish now dead , but revived in Cornwall and lastly Breton spoken in Brittany, France are again "sister" languages.

An example of the difference of "P" and "Q" can be found in translating the word head . In Scottish Gaelic a member of the "Q" group the word for head is "ceann " often in shown as "kin" in Scottish place names such as Kinloch (head of the Loch) Kincardine (head of the woods) etc. Also it was the name of the first Anglicized Gaelic king of Scotland Malcolm Canmore, Canmore meaning great head. ( Iam not sure if this was a physical attribute or was a reference to a great leader).

In the "P" groups the the word for head in Welsh is "Pen" found in such names as Pendragon or Pengelly ( don't ask me to translate!!)

So you can see where these Celtic languages evolved locally the Gaelic group leaned towards the "K" sound or "Q" and the Bryttonic group leaned to the "P" sound.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Sep 2006, 10:47am

I mentioned in my introduction to this topic that the Scottish Gaelic spoken in Islay is similar to the Irish Gaelic spoken in Donegal and I said this is probably because Islay was part of the ancient Scoti (Irish) kingdom of Dalriada. However, an additional reason might be the Scottish Gaelic speaking soldiers - called Gallowglasses - who settled in Ireland (mainly Ulster) in the 14th century. Gallowglasses were mercenary soldiers from the western Highlands and Islands of Scotland, imported by Irish clan chiefs mainly in the ancient Irish Gaelic speaking Province of Ulster, to aid in the defence of clan territories. Some of the Gallowglasses did not return to Scotland after fighting and settled amongst the indigenous Irish.

The Scottish Gallowglass settlement in Ulster should NOT be confused with the Scottish Plantation of Ulster. The Gallowglass settlement was much smaller in size and happened in the 14th and 15th centuries, before the 16th century Scottish Reformation. The Gallowglasses were Scottish West Highlanders, Catholic and Scottish Gaelic speaking and those that settled permanently in Ireland were quickly assimilated into the Catholic Irish Gaelic speaking population of Ulster. (In fact, Irish Gaelic was the only language spoken in Ulster in the 14th century.) The 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster was on a much larger scale. Moreover, the Planters were English speaking Protestants and came from predominantly the Scottish Lowlands though there were also some Planters from the southern Highlands of Scotland and also from the north of England. The 17th century Protestant Planters and the indigenous Catholic Irish remained largely separate and mixed very little.

Most experts say there were around 20 Gallowglass families that settled permanently in Ireland. The most famous of these are:

Sweeney (MacSweeney) (County Donegal), Coll (MacColl) (County Donegal), McFadden (County Donegal), Rogers (MacRory) (County Tyrone), McSorley (County Tyrone/Fermanagh), McCallion (County Donegal/Derry) and McCabe (County Cavan/Monaghan). These 7 surnames are now considered to be Irish surnames and people in Scotland/Glasgow today with these surnames are almost certainly descendants of 19th century Irish immigrants to Scotland!!!

Moreover, in the present day, there are Catholic Campbells in Ulster who are descended from 14th century Scottish Gallowglass Campbell settlers, particularly in Donegal, Derry and Tyrone. In addition, there are Protestant Campbells in Ulster, descendants of the 17th century Scottish Planters, particularly in Antrim, Down and Armagh. The same 2 things can be said of a few other Highland Scottish surnames such as McDonnell (McDonald), McClean (McLean), McDowell (McDougall), McAllister (McAlister) and McAuley (McAulay).

There were only a few other Gallowglass families that settled permanently in Ireland, other than the 13 that I have already mentioned, such as Sheehy (MacSheehy), McIntyre, McNeill, McGreal, Short (McGirr) and possibly 1 or 2 others.

These Scottish Gaelic speaking Gallowglass settlers might have influenced the Irish Gaelic spoken in the northern counties of Ireland - Ulster - such as Donegal, though I am not sure if their numbers were large enough.

See http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=172828 of this topic for an updated discussion of Scottish Gallowglass families in Ireland.

Posted by: rdem 6th Sep 2006, 12:46am

Hi Paul, how about Gallagher which means foriegn soldier.

Also I would think that the reason that Ulster Irish Galeic was similar to scottish Galeic was that they ahd the same root with much marine intercourse over the centuries.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 8th Sep 2006, 11:47am

Hi rdem.

Gallagher - the most common surname in Donegal - is not considered to be a Gallowglass surname. The Gallowglass families settled in Ireland in the 14th and 15th centuries. The Gallagher surname has been in Donegal since at least the 9th century. Its origins are not known exactly but it is speculated that the name originates from a 9th century Viking (Norse) warrior who helped the Ulster Gaelic chieftains in battle against other Viking invaders to the north of Ireland.

See the last paragraph of http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=231249 for an updated discussion of the Gallagher surname.

Paul

Posted by: rdem 8th Sep 2006, 02:23pm

That makes sense Paul. Another Gaelic "Stranger ' in Scotland is Galbraith which means British foreigner. By British they mean Brittonic as the Strathclyde Britons who were akin to the welsh.
Also plain foreigner or stranger is covered in Gaelic by such surnames as Gall and Gault.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Oct 2006, 11:24am

Galbraith is a common Scottish Planter surname in Ulster.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Oct 2006, 11:58am

County Donegal gets its name from the port town of Donegal
(Dun Na nGall) which literally means 'the fort of the foreigners'.
I understand the foreigners being referred to were the Viking warriors who tried to invade Donegal in the early 9th century. The Vikings were largely repelled from Donegal by the native Gaelic Irish. (The Vikings only colonized the east and southeast of Ireland around Louth, Dublin, Waterford and Wexford.)

The other time I was discussing the Donegal surname Gallagher (O'Gallchobhair in Irish Gaelic) which literally means 'the foreign warrior who has come to help'. I said it is speculated that the Gallagher surname originates from a Viking warrior who helped the Gaelic chieftains repel the Viking invaders of Donegal in the early 9th century. However, I have recently been reading various websites about the Gallagher surname and many of them claim that the Gallagher surname has been in Donegal since at least the 5th century, and that the Gallagher family is of purely Irish Gaelic origin, despite the surname's meaning.

If you do a GOOGLE search for

UNIVERSITY OF ULSTER NEWS RELEASE - MORE IRISH THAN THE IRISH

then you will come across an interesting article about the Viking legacy in Ireland and Genetics (DNA, Y Chromosome, etc.)

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Oct 2006, 12:47pm

I recently came across another Gallowglass/Galloglass/Galloglas/Gallowglas surname in addition to the 18 which I have already mentioned. It is the MacGallogly family from County Donegal. The McGallogly or Gallogly surname is often Anglicized to 'English'. I am not sure of the reason for this Anglicisation as the Gallowglasses came originally from Argyll and the southern Inner Hebridean islands - the area of Scotland formerly known as Dalriada.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 4th Oct 2006, 11:28am

Still on the theme of DNA and the Y chromosome, you should try doing a GOOGLE search for

IRISH KING LEFT A WIDE GENETIC TRAIL - GENETIC GENEALOGY

It makes very interesting reading.

So it seems that the Gallaghers are not descended from a 9th century Viking warrior, but are in fact descended from a 5th century Gaelic King of Ireland, Niall of the Nine Hostages.

Many people are in fact descended from this King, especially in the northwest of Ireland - Donegal, Derry and Tyrone.

And, of course, many people in Glasgow are descendants of 19th century Irish immigrants from the northwest of Ireland, particularly County Donegal.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 11th Oct 2006, 06:04am

If you do a GOOGLE search for

OXFORD ANCESTORS HIGH KINGS IRELAND

you will come across a similar article to the previous one.

Posted by: rdem 11th Oct 2006, 07:33am

Paul;

I just got around to reading you the articles on DNA you mentioned. While I don't suppose I share the same gene pool as Niall of the Nine Hostages, I did write to the Ulster Uni asking what the criteria is for particpating in their search. Although my name is Dempsey, from ODempsey ( O Diomasaigh), a Leinster name, there is a small subtribe of MacDempsey ( McGimpsey) from Ulster. The furthest I have gotten back in my Dempsey line is Newry and Dundalk, so who knows.

Posted by: derick2 11th Oct 2006, 07:57am

Hi Paul, this is a very interesting topic. I wonder if you have any ideas concerning the name Donohue or Donachy being related to Donnachie or Clan Donnachie? Another name found in Argyll and Ulster is Currie.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 12th Oct 2006, 09:10am

Hi Derick.

Donaghy is an Irish Gaelic surname originating in the Tyrone/Derry region of Ulster. Many of the 19th century Irish immigrants to Scotland came from the north west of Ireland. Most of the immigrants were illiterate and their surnames were usually recorded in a 'Scottish' manner by Scottish officials.
eg Donachy or Donnachie instead of Donaghy.

(See posts #200 #204 and #205 of the topic 'http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6148'.)

I went to school with a boy with the surname Donnachy and I know he was of Irish descent.

Donohue and McDonagh are also Irish surnames.

Currie is an Argyll surname and I am sure it is a common surname in Ulster due to the 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster.

Incidentally, Curry is considered to be an Irish surname.

Paul.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 12th Oct 2006, 09:41am

Hi rdem

I understand that the Y chromosome is passed from father to son to son to son to son etc in the same way that a surname is passed on through the generations. The Niall of the Nine Hostages Y Chromosome is found in nearly all men with the surnames O'Neill, O'Donnell, Gallagher, Doherty, McLaughlin, Boyle (and quite a few other surnames.)

So if you were born with one of the above surnames then it is highly likely that your father's father's father's father's ..... father was Niall of the Nine Hostages!

rdem, it is true that you probably don't have the Niall of the Nine Hostages Y Chromosome as Dempsey is not one of the surnames mentioned in the articles. However, I am sure you are a descendant of Niall of the Nine Hostages as I remember reading elsewhere that you have Gallagher and O'Donnell ancestors.

It really is a small world!

Paul.

Posted by: rdem 12th Oct 2006, 11:49am

Correct Paul:

While I may be in the Niall gene pool, it wouldn't show up in y DNA. As I understand the dna from the female doesn't show in male offspring after one generation. Dempsey from O ' Dempsey while a local force from the 11th to the 17th century were originally a sub tribe of O Connor Faly, who claim descent from Rosse Failghe, the oldest son of Cathair Mor a 3rd century high king of Ireland.

Posted by: marina 12th Oct 2006, 05:00pm

i love the irish just as much as the scots


















rdem- i love your wee bit at the bottom biggrin.gif

Posted by: rdem 12th Oct 2006, 10:04pm

Thanks Marina: I' trying to figure out how to put that signature on my e mail accounts too <smile>

The history of Ireland is fascinating, especially pre Norman Ireland.
Paul: You mentioned that the surname Gallagher possibly went as far back as the fifth century. The name as we have mentioned means foriegn soldier . An explanation is possibly since the Irish were so insular, in that every "tribal hieftain" considered himself a king, "righ" in Gaelic, that possibly the "foriegn element referred to non Gaels such as the Formorians who lived in Ireland in pre Celtic times or the Cruithne the Irish version of Picts.

Posted by: Iain Kennedy 30th Oct 2006, 06:23am

I have had the so-called Niall DNA test done, technically it is called M222 and I am positive for it. My ancestry is from Loch Rannoch. IMHO the Irish origin is still to be proven. There are at least two commercial companies who can provide the test, or the result can be predicted quite accurately by the more common 'STR' y-dna tests. I also run one of the many surname DNA projects around, for the Kennedy name.

On the subject of Scots in Ireland, have a read of 'Scots mercenaries in Ireland' and the tale of Turlough who assembled some 3000 Scottish Highlander men in Strabane, Co. Tyrone in the late 1500s.

As for Dal Riata, some are now questioning the extent to which there was a large scale population replacement by the Irish in 'Scotland'. Chief amongst those arguing this is Dr. Ewan Campbell of Glasgow University archaeology department. He will be doing a talk on Dal Riata at Ayr in mid December which I hope to get over to.

Iain Kennedy
Dowanhill
http://redirect.php?url=http://www.kennedydna.com

Posted by: Paul Kelly 15th Dec 2006, 09:57am

Hi Iain.

I remember watching a TV documentary about the famous Scottish broadcaster Ludovic Kennedy a few years ago. In the documentary Ludovic said he once interviewed the former American President John F Kennedy. Before the interview started JFK asked Ludo if he was an Irish Kennedy. Ludo told JFK that he was a Scottish Kennedy and that he had no connections with Ireland. I got the impression listening to Ludovic Kennedy that the Scottish Kennedy family and the Irish Kennedy family were in NO way related. They just happened to share the same surname!

My understanding is that the Scottish Kennedys are a Lowland Scottish family originating in the Dumfries and Galloway area of southwest Scotland. Ludovic is descended from this family. The Irish Kennedys are a Gaelic Irish family originating in the Leinster and Munster Provinces in the south of Ireland. President Kennedy is descended from that family.

Incidentally, I understand Kennedy is also a common surname in the north of Ireland - Ulster - and most of the Ulster Kennedys are descendants of 17th century Lowland Scottish Protestant Planters from Ayrshire, Dumfries and Galloway.

I am interested to read that you are a Kennedy originating from the Scottish Highlands and that you have the Niall Y chromosome. I am sure that some of the Dalriadic Scoti from the north of Ireland must have brought the Niall Y chromosome to the Scottish Highlands in the 6th century.

Iain, is there a Highland Scottish Kennedy family and are they related to the Lowland Scottish Kennedy family? Given what I understand about the ethnic origins of the Lowland Scots, I think it is highly unlikely that the Lowland Scottish Kennedy family carries the Niall Y chromosome in its male lineage. I know that following the Highland Clearances, quite a number of Lowland Scottish families (including probably some Kennedys) were relocated to the Highlands in an attempt to 'Anglify' the Highlands and rid it of its Gaelic language and culture. It is also possible that some indigenous Highland Scottish families adopted Lowland Scottish surnames such as Kennedy during those years when Highland/Gaelic culture was being suppressed. Being an expert on the Kennedy surname, I would love to hear what you have to say.

Finally, I understand that the Niall Y chromosome is not commonly found in indigenous Highland Scotsmen. The majority of indigenous Highlanders are of Pictish (and Viking) descent in their male lineage as opposed to Dalriadic Scottish descent (of which you appear to be.)

Did you manage to attend the talk on Dalriada in Ayr?

Look forward to hearing from you.


Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 13th Jan 2007, 04:57pm

In an earlier post, I was discussing the Scottish mercenary Gallowglass soldiers from the Western Highlands and Islands (mainly Argyll and the Inner Hebrides - the area of Scotland formerly known as Dalriada - ) who went to fight in Ireland in the 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th centuries.

I just want to add that the Gallowglasses who went to Ireland in the 16th century to fight in the armies of the O'Neills and the O'Donnells in Counties Tyrone and Donegal were sometimes referred to as Redshanks because of their practice of going bare legged.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 21st Jan 2007, 11:15am

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=103266, I mentioned that there were around 20 Scottish Catholic Gallowglass families from the Western Highlands and Islands of Scotland that settled permanently in Ireland (mainly Ulster) in the 14th/15th/16th centuries before the late 16th century Scottish Reformation. I have been researching a bit more about the Gallowglasses and I want to clarify a few things.

The following 10 Galloglas surnames are now considered to be purely Irish surnames. People in Glasgow/Scotland today with these 10 surnames are almost certainly descendants of 19th century Catholic Irish immigrants to Scotland.

Sweeney (originally McSweeney) (Donegal), Coll (originally McColla) (Donegal), McFadden (not to be be confused with the Scottish surname of McFadyen) (Donegal), McCallion (Donegal/Derry), McRory or McCrory (often Anglicised to Rogers/Rodgers) (Derry/Tyrone), McSorley (Tyrone), McGirr (often Anglicised to Short or Shortt) (Tyrone/Armagh), McCabe (Cavan/Monaghan), McGreal (Mayo), Sheehy (originally McSheehy) (Munster)

While some of the Derry/Tyrone McRorys are of Gallowglass origins, the other Derry/Tyrone McRorys are actually descended from a native Gaelic Irish family with the same name.

The next set of 9 Gallowglass surnames are still obviously considered to be Scottish surnames.

Campbell, McNeill, McAllister, McDonald (usually spelt McDonnell in Ireland), McDougall (usually spelt McDowell in Ireland), McCallum (usually spelt McCollum in Ireland), McLean (sometimes spelt McClean in Ireland), McIntyre (sometimes spelt McAteer in Ireland), McAuley (sometimes spelt McCauley in Ireland)

There are Catholics in Ulster today with these 9 surnames who are descendants of 15th century Galloglass settlers. There are also Protestants in Ulster today with these 9 surnames who are descendants of 17th century Scottish Planters. While some of the Catholic Campbells, McCauleys (McAuleys), McAteers (McIntyres) and McCollums in Ulster are of Galloglas origins, the other Catholic Campbells, McCauleys, McAteers and McCollums in Ulster are actually descended from native Gaelic Irish families with the same names. While some of the Protestant McDowells in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish McDougall Planters from Argyll, most of the Protestant McDowells in Ulster are actually descendants of 17th century Scottish McDowall Planters from Galloway. The Catholic McDowells in Ulster are all descendants of 15th century Scottish McDougall Gallowglasses from Argyll and some of the Catholic McDowells changed their surnames to Doyle. Lastly, a significant minority of the people in the Glasgow area today with these 9 surnames are descendants of 19th century Irish immigrants.

By the start of the 17th century (c1600), the number of Scottish Catholic Galloglas mercenary soldiers going to fight in Ireland was in decline, partly because of the Scottish Reformation in the late 1500s. At the beginning of the 17th century, most Scottish Highlanders had become or were becoming Protestants. The Scottish Lowlands were already completely Protestant by the start of the 17th century.

In the first half of the 17th century many British (predominantly Scottish) Protestants were planted in Ulster. Most of these Protestant Planters were from the Scottish Lowlands, particularly Ayrshire, Renfrewhire, Lanarkshire, Galloway, Dumfries and the Borders. In addition, some of the Protestant Planters were from the southern Scottish Highlands, particularly Stirlingshire, Argyll and Kintyre and from the north of England.

The last Scottish Catholic Gallowglass soldier to go and fight in Ireland was Alasdair MacColla in the 1640s. MacColla had been born in the early 1600s on the remote Dalriadic island of Colonsay in the Inner Hebrides off the coast of Argyll. If you do a GOOGLE search for him you will see he was a man who relished warfare. MacColla actually played a major role in the slaughter of some of the 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters in Ulster.

See http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=172828 of this topic for an updated discussion of Scottish Gallowglass families in Ireland.

Posted by: Iain Kennedy 29th Jan 2007, 08:18pm

Paul,

Yes Ludovic is a 4th cousin of the Kennedy clan chief. You are correct that there is no connection between the Irish and Scottish Kennedies in the traditional genealogy sense. It is starting to look like the Scottish Kennedy main lines are from the 'North west Irish' DNA group which some claim started off in Co. Donegal. The data is open to a certain amount of interpretation. If so then they most likely arrived in Scotland long before the Kennedy surname was adopted in either country so there is no disrepancy.

There is a Highland branch of the Kennedies. According to clan histories it was established as an offshoot in the sixteenth century after an Ayrshire Kennedy fled there. He sought protection from Lochiel and hence they became a sept of Clan Cameron. Confusingly, not long afterwards some of the same people also joined the MacDonalds of Keppoch and so are also considered a sept of Clan Donald. Genealogist Donald Whyte has written that they had started fanning out from Lochaber into north west Perthshire where my own family come from in the mid sixteenth century but I haven't managed to confirm this. I have closely matched the DNA of an Ayrshire Kennedy so to date, everything fits.

It is true that Galloway was not part of Dal Riata. However we have tested one of the landed Kennedy families of Ayrshire and it has the Niall markers.

Since I last posted, Professor Bryan Sykes' book 'Blood of the Isles' has come out. He has studied DNA across Scotland and measured the influx of Dal Riata and the contrast with Pictish DNA. If the subject interests you try and pick up the book - or browse the relevant pages in your local bookshop at least!

Yes I saw Dr. Campbell's talk which was good. It was largely based around his book 'Saints and Sea-kings' which I already have. Again if you are interested, the book is quite cheap and if you give it a read you will have got the lecture, more or less. It wasn't primarily about his theory about the peopling of Dal Riata which has been published elsewhere. Sykes' book came out just after the talk, I mean to write to Campbell about it as it may disprove his theory.


Iain Kennedy
http://www.kennedydna.com/kennedy_one_name_study.htm

Posted by: Paul Kelly 30th Jan 2007, 03:45pm

Hi Iain.

Thanks for your reply. I would love to gaet a copy of 'Blood of the Isles'. I doubt I will come across it here in Botswana but I will ask my brother to look for it in Glasgow. What does the book have to say? Any new or suprising developments?

I understand that by the mid 6th century the Kingdom of Dal Riata was composed of 2 main subkingdoms: the Northern Irish Dalriada based in Antrim (the original Dal Riada) and the Scottish Dalriada based in Argyll (formed at the start of the 6th century by Scoti immigrants from the north of Ireland). The Scottish Dalriada was made up of 4 minor subkingdoms:

Cenel Loairn (Loch Awe, Lorn/Lorne (Oban, Dunollie, Benderloch))
Cenel nOengusa (Islay, Colonsay)
Cenel Comgaill (Cowal (Dunoon), Bute)
Cenel nGabrain (Kintyre, Knapdale, Dunadd, Arran, Jura)

The Cenel Loairn and the Cenel nGabrain were the more important of these 4 subkingdoms and some historians actually include the Cenel Comgaill and the Cenel Oengusa in the Cenel Gabrain.

To the north and east of Scottish Dalriada were the Picts. To the southeast of Scottish Dalriada were the Britons and Angles. During the 7th and 8th centuries the Cenel Loairn expanded their territories northwards, seizing control of the Pictish territories of Appin and Lochaber, including Morvern, Ardnamurchan, Glenfinnan, Glen Coe, Ardgour, Morar, Sunart, Moidart, Knoydart and the Isle of Mull. Between the 6th and 9th centuries there was constant warfare between the Angles, Britons, Picts and Dalriadic Scoti. The coming of the Vikings in the 9th century led to the 'absorption' of the Picts by the Scoti (even though it is estimated that the Picts outnumbered the Scoti by at least 5 to 1). At this time, the Cenel Loairn expanded their territories even further north by migrating up the Great Glen to Inverness and Moray (lands occupied by Picts) and the Cenel nGabrain expanded their territories eastwards into Stirlingshire and Perthshire (lands also occupied by Picts). In the 10th century some Cenel nGabrain even expanded southwards into Ayrshire, Lanarkshire and Lothian (lands occupied by Britons and Angles).

Given that some of the Dalriadic Scoti from the north of Ireland probably brought the Niall Y chromosome to the Argyll region of Scotland at the start of the 6th century, I suspect that these later movements of the Cenel Loairn and Cenel nGabrain in the 9th and 10th centuries probably account for the Niall Y chromosome showing up in some unlikely parts of Scotland.

Paul

Posted by: lindamac 1st Feb 2007, 04:46am

biggrin.gif I have just read these 3 pages of extremely interesting Historical facts of Scotland/Names etc & felt fair nourished & somewhat intrigued in the awesome depth in which these few men have gone ,My deepest respect to you all & I appreciate your information very much cheers Guys wub.gif

Posted by: Paul Kelly 8th Mar 2007, 11:14am

In an earlier post I said there were around 20 Gallowglass families from the western Highlands and Islands of Scotland that settled permanently in Ireland in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries. Recently, I have been trying to find out where exactly in Scotland these Galloglas families originated. It seems that most - if not all - of these families came from southern Argyll (Arran, Bute, Islay, Jura, Colonsay, Gigha, Knapdale, Kintyre), mid Argyll (Loch Awe area), and possibly Mull and Lorn/Lorne (North Argyll area including Oban). There were certainly no Gallowglass families coming from north of Mull and Lorn.

So it seems the Gallowglasses came from the south west Highlands and Islands of Scotland, the part of Scotland which was formerly known as Dalriada. In fact, the majority of the Gallowglasses came from the islands - the southern Inner Hebridean islands off the coast of Argyll.

Posted by: KiwiScoti 11th Mar 2007, 08:43pm

Hi Paul,

Any idea where specifically the 'Sweeney' Gallowglasses originated from in the Highlands/Western Isles ?

And were they 'Suibhne' then ?

Would you believe it, we spent some time around Loch Awe, without being aware of our connections to the area, and also have had family presence on Islay.

many thanks,

Sean

Posted by: Paul Kelly 12th Mar 2007, 07:27am

Hi Sean.

I understand the Sweeneys came from the Loch Sween area in Knapdale (northern part of the Kintyre peninsula), Southern Argyll. Loch Sween is to the immediate east of the Sound of Jura. It is a very beautiful part of Scotland.

There is evidence that the Sweeney family had been staying in Knapdale since at least the 11th century. They built Castle Sween on the banks of Loch Sween. They were banished from Scotland in the early 14th century by Robert the Bruce and relocated en masse as Gallowglasses to the Fanad Peninsula in northern Donegal. The surname died out in Scotland with their relocation to Donegal. However the Sweeney surname was reintroduced into Scotland in the 19th century by Irish immigrants from mainly Donegal. Sweeney is considered to be an Irish (Donegal) surname. I think 'Suibhne' must be the spelling of the surname in both Irish and Scottish Gaelic.

It is speculated that the Sweeney family came originally from Donegal before settling in Knapdale, so you could say the Sweeneys were returning to their ancestral home of Donegal in the 14th century as Gallowglasses.

Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Apr 2007, 10:24am

The 'Irish' surname of McCoy has recently been brought to my attention. McCoy is the Irish spelling of the Scottish surname McKay. McCoy is a common surname in northeast Ulster (County Antrim in particular). It seems that some of these Ulster McCoys are descendants of 15th century Scottish Catholic McKay Gallowglasses (from Kintyre) while the other Ulster McCoys are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McKay Planters (also from Kintyre). The McCoy surname should not be confused with the native Gaelic Irish McCue (McHugh) surname which is quite common in west Ulster.

Finally, some of the 19th century Irish McCoy immigrants to Scotland had their surnames re-recorded in the Scottish form of McKay.

Posted by: Guest sandie 3rd Apr 2007, 05:26pm

hi paul i love your posts i wanted to say something about my dear great granny who was from tipparery ( i still miss her) when i was small and she would be cleaning me up in the tin bath tub in front of our wee fire after i had been playing in the mud in the back - as my hair was long and black and always knotted she would say that i reminded her of the banshees - so every night i got the story of these wild wiman from irland who sat in trees combing their long black hair - and if i didnt sit still while she washed me then she would call for the banshees to come and talk to me - or worse take me back with them - i knew the humour behind the story even at 4 yrs old - ive handed this story down to my own children and they loved it as much as i did- great people the irish are , and what story tellers!

Posted by: Paul Kelly 11th Apr 2007, 10:31am

I have not yet managed to get a copy of 'Blood of the Isles' by Professor Bryan Sykes but I still hope to one day. However, I have recently been browsing on the net about Bryan Sykes and the book. There are quite a number of articles on the book and its author. It seems Sykes highlights 3 ancient Celtic Peoples of the British Isles: the Q-Celtic Irish (including the Dalriadic Scoti), the P-Celtic Britons (the original people of England, Wales and southern Scotland) and the P-Celtic Picts (the original people of central and northern Scotland). Sykes states that all 3 of these Celtic Peoples - Irish, Britons and Picts - came to the British Isles many centuries ago from the Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Potugal). They probably arrived in different migrations and from different parts of Iberia. Sykes also states that people from all parts of the British Isles - including England - are predominantly of Celtic origins. He says the English are descended mainly from the P-Celtic Britons and not from the Germanic Anglo-Saxons. The people of southern Scotland are also descended mainly from the P-Celtic Britons and the people of central and northern Scotland are descended mainly from the P-Celtic Picts. The most P-Celtic part of the British Isles is the north of Wales. The most Q-Celtic part of the British Isles is the west of Ireland.

I have attached 3 interesting articles about Bryan Sykes and his book from the Scotsman newspaper.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/news/Were-nearly-all-Celts-under.2812146.jp

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/science/DNA-shows-Celtic-hero-Somerleds.2621296.jp

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/ingenuity/Using-science-to-trace-your.2628147.jp

Posted by: Paul Kelly 30th May 2007, 01:55pm

I have recently received and read a copy of 'Blood of the Isles' by Bryan Sykes. It was a very enjoyable read. In my previous post I had said that the most P-Celtic part of the British is north Wales. In fact, I should have said central and southern Wales. Sykes estimates that 85% of men in mid/south Wales have a Celtic Y-chromosome. The 2nd most P-Celtic part of the British Isles is the Grampian (Pictland) region of Scotland where Sykes estimates that 83.5% of men have a Celtic Y-chromosome.

As I had stated in my previous post, the most Q-Celtic part of the British Isles is the west of Ireland. In the west of Ireland in the Province of Connacht (Galway, Mayo, Sligo, etc), Sykes estimates that 98% of men have a Celtic Y-chromosome. In the south west of Ireland in the Province of Munster (Kerry, Cork, Limerick, etc), Sykes estimates that 95% of men have a Celtic Y-chromosome. In the 2 other Provinces of Ireland - Leinster and Ulster - the percentages are lower at 73% and 81% respectively, probably because of the influence of English and Viking settlers in the southeast (Leinster), and Scottish and English settlers in the north (Ulster).

Overall, Sykes estimates that 64% of men in England, 73% of men in Scotland and 83% of men in Wales have a Celtic Y-chromosome. He doesn't give an overall figure for the island of Ireland but based on his figures for the 4 Provinces of Ireland, the percentage of men in Ireland with a Celtic Y-chromosome is probably between 85% and 90%. So Celtic Y-chromosomes are in the majority in all parts of the British Isles, including all the regions of England. The lowest percentage is 51% in the East Anglia region of England.

In Argyll (southwest Highlands of Scotland) - the area of Scotland which corresponds roughly to the former Kingdom of Dalriada - Sykes estimates that 81% of men have a Celtic Y-Chromosome. Of these Argyll Celtic Y-chromosomes, he estmates that around a third of them are Q-Celtic Irish Y-chromosomes with the other two thirds being P-Celtic Pictish Y-chromosomes. Most of the non-Celtic Y-chromosomes in Argyll are of Viking origin, unlike in Grampian and Tayside, where most of the non-Celtic Y-chromosomes are of Anglo-Saxon origin.

In the northwest Highlands of Scotland including the Western Isles (Outer Hebrides and northern Inner Hebrides) and the Northern Isles (Orkney and Shetland), Sykes estimates that around 70% of men have a Celtic Y-chromosome (overwhelmingly a P-Celtic Pictish Y-chromosome although there are a few Q-Celtic Irish Y-chromosomes, particularly in the Western Isles). The non-Celtic Y-chromosomes in this region are a mixture of Viking and Anglo-Saxon, although the Viking Y-chromosomes clearly outnumber the Anglo-Saxon Y-chromosomes in the Western Isles and especially in the Northern Isles. The Vikings left quite an imprint on the far north of Scotland, especially the Northern Isles. In fact, around a third of the Y-chromosomes on Orkney and Shetland are of Viking origin, the highest proportion of any region in the British Isles.

Sykes also discusses mitochodrial DNA (mDNA for short) which is passed on from mother to daughter to daughter etc relatively unchanged through the generations in the same way that the Y-chromosome is passed on from father to son to son etc relatively unchanged through the generations. He says the mDNA evidence clearly indicates central and northern Scotland's Pictish ancestry. On the mDNA evidence Sykes writes:

"What we have here is the imprint of Scotland's Pictish ancestry, on the maternal side, spread more or less uniformly across the land. The maternal gene pool is more or less the same in Pictland (Grampian, Tayside and Fife), in Argyll and in the (north west) Highlands"

Returning to the Y-chromosome which is only found in men, Sykes writes:

"The Irish Y-chromosome infiltration (into Argyll) is almost certainly the signal of the relocation of the Dal Riata from Ulster to Argyll in the middle of the first millennium (c500)''

''The genetic signal (in Argyll), as far as I can judge, points to a substantial and, by the look of it, hostile replacement of Pictish males by Dalriadan Irish, most of whom relied on Pictish rather than Irish women to propagate their genes"

''On the male side, we can see plainly what must be the Pictish bedrock in Grampian and Tayside, but in Argyll it has been substantially overlain by new arrivals. The Argyll Y-chromosomes.....(which indicates) a 30% to 40% replacement of Pictish by Gaelic Y-chromosomes (in Argyll).''

Posted by: Paul Kelly 11th Jun 2007, 10:25am

In post #24 of this topic I had mentioned 19 Scottish Catholic Gallowglass families that had settled permanently in Ireland (mainly Ulster) in the 14th/15th centuries. I had first of all mentioned a group of 10 surnames that are now considered to be Irish surnames as these surnames appear to have died out in Scotland after the relocation of these Galloglass families to Ireland. I had then mentioned a 2nd group of 9 surnames which I had said are still obviously considered to be Scottish surnames. On reflection, I think I should have put the McFadden surname in the 2nd group and not in the 1st group. The McFadyen Gallowglasses are said to have moved from Kintyre to Donegal in the 14th century. The surname is spelt McFadden in Ireland. Obviously, the McFadyen surname did not die out in Scotland. Incidentally, while some of the Catholic McFaddens in Ulster are descendants of 14th century Scottish McFadyen Galloglasses, some of them are in fact descended from a native Gaelic Irish family of the same name. In addition there are a few Protestant McFadden families in mainly east Ulster who are descendants of 17th century Scottish McFadyen Planters.

When I started researching Galloglass families, the initial impression I got was that they originated in the Western Isles (Outer Hebrides and northern Inner Hebrides). However, I now know that this is certainly NOT the case. They all seem to have come from southern Argyll (Kintyre, Knapdale and Cowal) and the surrounding islands of the southern Inner Hebrides (Islay, Jura, Colonsay, Gigha, Arran and Bute). In particular, I have been trying to locate the origins of those Galloglass families who relocated to Ireland en masse and whose surnames appear to have died out in Scotland. (ie Sweeney, McCabe, Coll, Sheehy, McGreal, McSorley, McRory, McCallion, McGirr)

In post #30, I mentioned that the Sweeney Gallowglasses originted in Knapdale, north Kintyre and migrated en masse to Donegal in the 14th century. Similarly, the McCabe Galloglasses originated in the Isle of Arran and southern Kintyre and migrated en masse to Cavan/Monaghan in the 14th century. The Coll Gallowglasses originated in Colonsay and the McGreal Galloglasses originated in Gigha. The McSorley Galloglasses were a sept of the McDonalds (of Kintyre and Islay) and originated in Islay. They migrated en masse to County Tyrone in the 14th century. However, the McSorley surname did not die out immediately in Scotland because there were still 2 other McSorley families remaining in Scotland who were NOT related to the Galloglass McSorleys of clan McDonald. These were the McSorleys of Cowall, Argyll and the McSorlies of Lochaber near Fort William. However, by the 16th century the McSorley surname does appear to have died out in Scotland as the Cowal McSorleys adopted the surname Lamont (who were the dominant clan in Cowal) and the Lochaber McSorlies adopted the surname Cameron (who were the dominant clan in Lochaber). (Most Lamonts and Camerons are not descended from these McSorley families but a significant minority of them are.)

Most, if not all of the people in Scotland today with the Gallowglass surnames Sweeney, McCabe, McGirr, McGreal, McSorley, McCallion, McCrory, Sheehy and Coll are descendants of 19th century Catholic Irish immigrants.

Posted by: angel 11th Jun 2007, 01:11pm

thankyou Paul Kelly, a wonderful read.

Angel

Posted by: KiwiScoti 12th Jun 2007, 02:57am

Thanks Paul,
I'm sure we all appreciate your research.

I know I do !

It's great to know where we Sweeneys originate from and our history, after many centuries wandering in the wilderness.

cheers,

Sean 'from the furthermost corner of the Earth'

Posted by: Paul Kelly 12th Jun 2007, 02:17pm

Thanks Angel and Sean.

In his book 'Blood of the Isles', Professor Bryan Sykes states:

''The Irish Y-chromosome infiltration (into Argyll) is almost certainly the signal of the relocation of the Dal Riata from Ulster to Argyll in the middle of the first millennium (c500).''

It is certainly true that many Irish Scoti from Ulster settled in Argyll around the start of the 6th century and attempted to drive the Picts from the area. Between the 6th and 9th centuries the Scoti and Picts were constantly at war with one another and on several occasions the Picts regained control of much of Argyll.

I think there is a possible additional reason for the 'Irish Y-chromosome infiltration' into Argyll. In the early 11th cenury the King of the northwest of Ireland (the King of Aileach) was Aodh (Hugh) Athlaman Ua Neill. King Aodh Athlaman was a direct descendant of the 4th/5th century High King of Ireland, Niall of the Nine Hostages. The OLDER son of Athlaman is said to be the direct ancestor of the modern O'Neill family of Ulster, and a close cousin of Athlaman is said to be the direct ancestor of the McLaughlin family of Donegal. King Athlaman died in 1033. The YOUNGER son of Athlaman - Prince Aodh Anrathan Ui Neill - moved to Argyll in 1038 where he married the daughter of one of the chiefs in southern Argyll (Cowal, Glassary and Knapdale). Prince Aodh Anrothan had many sons and the following Argyll clans are said to be his direct descendants: the Lamonts of Cowal, the McLachlans of Cowal, the McSorleys of Cowal, the McEwens of Cowal and Knapdale, the McSweeneys of Knapdale and the McNeills of Knapdale and Gigha. (Lamont, McLachlan, McSorley, McEwen or McEwan, McSweeney or Sweeney, McNeill.)

The McSweeneys would eventually return to the northwest of Ireland in the 14th century as Galloglasses and the McSorleys of Cowal would eventually adopt the surname of their larger neighbours in Cowal - the Lamonts - as I mentioned in my previous post. In addition the McEwens of Cowall and Knapdale would eventually adopt the surnames of their larger neighbours - the McLachlans and the Campbells - while those that retained the McEwen/McEwan surname moved to other parts of the Scottish Highlands (and Lowlands). Finally, SOME of the McNeills of Knapdale and Gigha settled in the north east of Ireland as Galloglasses in the 15th century, and according to recent DNA evidence it now seems that the MCNEILL family of Knapdale, Gigha (and Colonsay) in Argyll is not related to the MCNEIL family of Barra in the Outer Hebrides as had been previously assumed.

If these clan histories are true then you would expext many modern Scotsmen with the surnames Lamont, McLachlan (and McNeill) to have an Irish Y-chromosome. In fact, you would expect them to have the Niall Y-chromosome as they should be direct descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages.

Posted by: RonD 14th Jun 2007, 08:55am

Hi Paul: Again your posts are extemely interesting. I am presently reading a book I picked up in my holiday in Kentucky. The Origins of the British, A genetic Detective Story: The surprising roots of the English, Irish, Scots and Welsh by Stephen Oppenheimer. The basics of it are that pre Roman "English" (as we know them today) weren't from Celtic stock and that Anglo Saxons only had a 5% impact on their DNA. He uses DNA traces going back to Mesalithic times. I'm being simplistic here and haven't finished the book, even then I'm not sure I will understand it all.

Posted by: Jim O'D 3rd Jul 2007, 08:47am

An enjoyable read

Posted by: Paul Kelly 17th Jul 2007, 09:03am

In post #35 I said the McSorley Gallowglasses came originally from the Isle of Islay and were a sept of the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay. It seems that the Sheehy (McSheehy) Galloglasses were also a sept of the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay and they came originally from Kintyre. In addition the McRory Gallowglasses came originally from the Isles of Arran and Bute and they were also related to the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay. In fact the McDonnell (McDonald), McSorley, McSheehy, McRory, McAlister and McDowell (McDougall) Galloglasses are all said to be direct descendants of the ledendary Somerled who is discussed in the 'Scotsman' newspaper article attached to post #33. The McDonnell (McDonald) Galloglasses came originally from Kintyre and Islay, the McAllister Galloglasses came originally from Kintyre, and the McDowell (McDougall) Galloglasses came originally from Lorn/Lorne (Oban and Benderloch) in north Argyll. The McDougall surname is spelt McDowell in Ireland, though not all of the McDowells in Ireland are descended from McDougall Galloglasses. Many of the McDowells in Ulster are descended from 17th century Scottish Protestant McDowall Planters from Galloway (see post #24). Similarly not all of the the McAllisters and McDonnells/McDonalds in Ulster are decended from Galloglasses. Some of them are also descended from 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters.
Finally, the McCallion Galloglasses were a sept of the Campbells of central Argyll (Loch Awe area).

Posted by: Heather 17th Jul 2007, 09:51am

I always understood that a lot of the Irish came from Wales or vice versa.
About four years ago we were on holiday in Sorrento and got speaking to another couple who were from Wales. I was intrigued by the woman right from I first saw her and thought she was Irish, she was the double of my Irish sis-in-law. I could hardly believe the likeness, she was even small like my sis-in-law and when I told her this, she said she did have Irish ancestors.
I have never before seen two people so alike who were un-related to each other, or maybe they would find they are related if they checked their ancestry. This woman and my sis-in-law could have been taken for twins.
My sis-in-law's own name is O'Connor.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 18th Jul 2007, 09:40am

Continuing with my last post (#41), the MacColla Gallowglasses who settled in Donegal in the 15th and 16th centuries are also said to be related to the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay. The MacColla (McColl) Galloglasses came originally from the southern Inner Hebridean islands of Colonsay and Islay and also possibly mainland Argyll around Loch Fyne. The MacColla surname in Donegal is usually given in the Anglicised form of Coll. Coll is a common surname in Donegal.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 22nd Jul 2007, 11:39am

In the 15th century a number of Catholic McNeill Gallowglasses from the southern Inner Hebridean islands of Gigha and Colonsay settled in north east Ulster, particularly County Antrim. A number of McNeill Galloglasses from Gigha also settled in north Connacht in the west of Ireland, particularly County Mayo. The McNeill Gallowglasses who settled in Mayo became known by the surname McGreal.

Not all the McNeills in Ulster today are descended from 15th century Scottish Catholic Galloglasses. Some of the Ulster McNeills are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 26th Jul 2007, 12:29pm

I have been trying in vain to find out the exact origins of the McGirr Galloglass family. It seems that the McGirrs were one of the earliest Gallowglass families to settle in Ireland in the early 14th century. Their early arrival in Ireland probably accounts for why so little is known about their origins in Scotland. The McGirr (MacAnGhearr) Galloglasses migrated en masse from Scotland to Ulster (Tyrone and Armagh) in the early 14th century. In County Armagh, the McGirr surname was usually Anglicised as Short or Shortt, though McGirr is still commonly found in County Tyrone. MacAnGhearr means 'son of the short man'. One of my great great grandmothers was a Mary Short (McGirr) from Keady, Armagh.

Given what I have learned about the origins of other Galloglas families, I think it is quite likely that the McGirrs were related to the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay (like so many other Galloglass families), and they most probably originated in southern Argyll (Kintyre, Knapdale, Islay or Arran).

Incidentally, there is a small unrelated McGirr family from Dumfries and Galloway and it seems that a few of the McGirrs in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Dumfries and Galloway. However, the majority of McGirrs (and Shorts) in Ulster - particularly those from Tyrone and Armagh - are undoubtedly descendants of 14th century Catholic MacAnGhearr Galloglasses from southern Argyll.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 27th Jul 2007, 09:32am

I ended post #41 by saying that the McCallion Galloglasses were related to the Campbells of Argyll. I have been looking further into this. The MacAilin family moved from Argyll to Ireland in the 15th and early 16th centuries to work as Galloglasses for the O'Donnells in County Donegal. The name became Anglicised as McCallion (or McKillen). In the years following the 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster some of the McCallions further Anglicised their surname to Campbell or occasionally Allen, which were common Scottish Planter surnames in Ulster. I haven't been able to find any concrete evidence that the 15th century MacAilin Galloglasses were actually related in any way to the Argyll Campbells, other than the fact that some of them adopted the Campbell surname in the 17th/18th centuries. There is no doubt that the McCallion (MacAilin) Galloglasses migrated en masse from Argyll to Donegal in the 15th century but it is open to question whether or not they were related to the Argyll Campbells. They may have in fact been related to the southern Argyll (Kintyre and Islay) McDonalds, like so many other Galloglas families. That would be something as the McDonalds and Campbells have traditionally been bitter rivals in Argyll.

The native Gaelic Irish MacCathmhaoil family originated in south Ulster. In the years following the 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster many of them Anglicised their surname to McCaul or McCall, particularly in and around Counties Monaghan and Cavan. However, in County Tyrone the surname was often Anglicised as Campbell. Due to this, the McCauls/McCalls of south Ulster and the Campbells of County Tyrone are considered to be native Irish families. Of course, many of the Campbells and McCalls in Ulster (particularly east Ulster) are descended from 17th century Scottish Protestant Campbell and McCall/McColl Planters and not from these native Irish Campbell and McCaul/McCall families. In addition, as I mentioned in post #43, there is also a Coll family in Donegal who are descendants of 15th/16th century MacColla Gallowglasses from Argyll.

So there are 3 origins for the Campbell surname in Ireland. The native Catholic Irish MacCathmhaoil family of County Tyrone, the 15th century Scottish Catholic McCallion (MacAilin) Galloglass family of Donegal, and the 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters of mainly east Ulster (Antrim and Down).

Posted by: Paul Kelly 27th Jul 2007, 12:40pm

Continuing with my last post, I have just been reading a website about the County Donegal surname O'Dochartaigh or Doherty. The website claims that the McCallions (MacAilins) of Donegal are of mixed ancestry. It says that some of the McCallions are related to the native Donegal O'Doherty family while the other McCallions are of Gallowglass origins. The website also says that the MacAilins/MacCailins of Galloglass origins came to Donegal from Argyll in the early 16th century and were probably related to the Campbells of Argyll. The reason given is that 'MacCailean Mor' has been the title used by the chief of the Campbells of Loch Awe, Argyll since the late 13th century.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 28th Jul 2007, 08:40am

The true origins of the powerful Campbell clan of Argyll are shrouded in mystery. A popular theory is that the female progenitor of the Campbell clan - Eva O'Duibhne - was a direct descendant of a man of Donegal ancestry called Diarmid O'Duibhne (Dermot O'Deeny) who resided at Loch Awe in Argyll. Eva married Archibald Gillespie Campbell (possibly Cam Beul), the first bearer of the Campbell surname. It is speculated that Archibald was either Anglo-Norman or a Strathclyde Briton. Incidentally, the Deeny or Deeney surname is still found in County Donegal today though sometimes in the Anglicised form of Peoples.

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname
http://www.hoganstand.com/general/Identity/folk.htm

Whatever the true origins of the Campbell surname, the Campbells and the MacDonalds became the 2 most powerful families in Argyll - the McDonalds in southern Argyll (Kintyre, Islay, Colonsay, Arran) and the Campbells in mid Argyll around Loch Awe and later in north Argyll (Lorn/Lorne) around Oban and Benderloch. The McDonalds of southern Argyll are said to be direct descendants of the legendary 12th century Argyll warrior Somerled, who was of mixed Viking and Dalriadic Scottish origins, and from whom many of the Gallowglass families who went to fight in Ireland in the 14th, 15th and early 16th centuries are also descended.

The Campbells and MacDonalds were probably the most numerous and powerful families in the Scottish Highlands. They were also bitter rivals. From their power bases in Argyll, these 2 surnames spread into many other parts of the Scottish Highlands (and even Lowlands). These 2 clans became so powerful that many smaller clans were absorbed into them, both voluntarily and forcibly. In fact, many Scottish families who adopted these surnames had absolutely no connection with the original Campbell and McDonald families of Argyll, by blood or descent.

Posted by: angel 28th Jul 2007, 01:39pm

I enjoy reading your posts, thankyou !.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 5th Aug 2007, 07:56am

The McCoy (McKay) Gallowglasses from Kintyre and Islay who settled in County Antrim in the 15th century (post #31) are said to be related to the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay and also to the McNeills of Gigha. In fact, the McKay family of Kintyre and Islay is in no way related to the famous McKay clan from Sutherland in the far north of Scotland.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 15th Aug 2007, 02:43pm

In posts #154 and #155 of 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland' in this Family History Forum I was discussing the McAuley/McAulay surname. In these 2 posts I said that there were 4 unrelated McAulay/McAuley families, 2 originating in Ireland and 2 in Scotland: the McAuley/McCauley family of County Fermanagh in West Ulster, the McAuley/McCauley family of County Westmeath in the Irish Midlands, the McAulay/MacAulay family from the Isle of Lewis in the Outer Hebrides and the McAulay/MacAulay family from Ardincaple/Ardencaple in the Rosneath/Roseneath peninsula in West Dunbartonshire. Since making these 2 posts, 2 additional Scottish McAulay/MacAulay families have been brought to my attention. These are the McAulay/MacAulay family of Ullapool and Loch Broom in Wester Ross in the north west Highlands and the McAulay/MacAulay family of the Isle of Islay in southwestern Argyll. There used to be a large McAulay family based around Kilchoman and Portnahaven on the western part of the Isle of Islay. The western part of Islay is usually known as the Rinns or Rhinns of Islay.

In posts #154 and #155 I said that the McAuley/McCauley family of County Donegal are of mixed origins. Some are related to the native Irish McAuley family of County Fermanagh whereas the others are said to be descended from c15th century Scottish Catholic McAulay Gallowglass settlers. There were also a few 17th century Scottish Protestant McAulay Planters in Donegal. The folflore of Donegal has always been that the McAulay Gallowglasses came from the Scottish Islands. I am now strongly of the opinion that the McAuley Galloglasses who settled in Donegal came from the Island of Islay. There is no evidence that any of the Scottish Galloglass settlers in Ireland came from the Outer Hebrides such as the Isle of Lewis. All the Galloglas settlers in Ireland seem to have come from mainland Argyll (especially Kintyre and Knapdale) and the surrounding southern Inner Hebridean islands of Islay, Jura, Colonsay, Gigha, Arran and Bute.

Finally, in post #154 I was discussing the McAuley family of County Antrim. I said that around half of the McAuleys of County Antrim are Catholic and are mainly descendants of early 16th century Scottish Catholic McAulay Gallowglasses (though a few are probably connected to the McAuleys of Fermanagh). The other half are Protestants and are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McAulay Planters. It has always been assumed that the McAuley Galloglasses and the McAuley Planters in County Antrim were both connected to the Scottish McAulay family of Ardincaple, west Dumbartonshire, and I said as much in posts #154, #155 and #171. I think it is likely that most of the 17th century Scottish McAulay Planters in Ulster were from this Dunbartonshire family. However, I am now of the opinion that the early 16th century McAulay Gallowglass settlers in Antrim probably came from the Isle of Islay. The reason I believe this is that the McAuley Gallowglasses were BROUGHT to the Glens of Antrim in the early 16th century by the McDonnells of Antrim. The McDonnells of Antrim were themselves descendants of 14th century Scottish McDonald Galloglass settlers from Kintyre and Islay, and in the early 16th century the McDonnells/McDonalds still had a strong presence on the Isle of Islay.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 29th Sep 2007, 11:02am

In post #24 I was discussing the McRory or McCrory Gallowglass family. I stated that while some of the McRorys of Derry/Tyrone are of Galloglass origins, the other Derry/Tyrone McRorys are actually descended from a native Irish family of the same name. The MacRory surname arose independently in both Ireland and Scotland. The Irish Mac Ruaidhri or MacRuaidhri (MacRory) surname originated in County Derry/Tyrone in Ulster. In Counties Derry, Tyrone and Antrim the MacRory surname is usually spelt McRory or McCrory. In neighbouring County Donegal the surname is usually spelt McGrory.

The Scottish Mac Ruairi or MacRuairi (MacRory) family originated in the Isle of Bute (and possibly Arran) in what was once southern Argyll. The Scottish McRorys are said to be related to the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay and are direct descendants of the legendary Somerled. In the 14th century Scottish Catholic McRory Gallowglasses from southern Argyll settled in Derry and Tyrone and through time became indistinguishable from the native Catholic Irish McRorys. Some also settled in the province of Connacht in the west of Ireland and the surname appeared to become extinct in Scotland.

During the 17th century Protestant Plantations of Ulster, many Scottish/English Rodgers/Rogers families settled in Ulster, particularly east Ulster. In the years following the Plantations, many of the Catholic Irish McRory/McCrory/McGrory families of west Ulster and Connacht adopted Rogers or Rodgers as their surname.

McCreery or McCreary or McCrary (Mac Ruidhri or MacRuidhri) is a Scottish surname originating in Galloway. During the 17th century Scottish Plantations of Ulster several Protestant McCreery families settled in east Ulster. Unsurprisingly, there seems to have been some intermingling of the similar sounding native Irish McCrory and Scottish Planter McCreery surnames in east Ulster (Antrim and Down).

Cleary (O'Cleary) (O'Cleirigh) is a native Irish surname. It is often thought that the McCleery or McCleary surname, which is quite common in Ulster, is also an Irish surname. However, it appears that most of the McCleerys in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters. I have been doing a little research and it seems that McCleery or McCleary or McClary (MacChleirich) is a sept of 3 Scottish clans: McIntosh, Cameron and McPherson. In Scotland, the Mac Chleirich surname was often Anglicised as Clark. Similarly, in Ireland, the O'Cleirigh (Cleary) surname was sometimes Anglicised as Clarke. Clarke is a very common surname in Ulster and in Ireland in general. Some of the Ulster Clarkes are of native Irish O'Cleirigh stock, particularly in south Ulster, while the others are descendants of 17th century Scottish/English Clark/Clarke Planters.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Oct 2007, 06:25pm

Many of my posts in this topic have been about the Scottish Gallowglass families from mainland Argyll and the surrounding southern Inner Hebridean islands that settled in Ireland in the 14th, 15th and early 16th centuries. I recently came across the following 2 articles about Galloglass by Kintyre historian Andrew McKerral which I enjoyed reading.

http://www.kintyremag.co.uk/1998/15/page6.html

http://www.kintyremag.co.uk/1998/16/page10.html


On a different matter, in post #38, I wrote about 6 families from Cowal, Glassary and Knapdale in southern Argyll that are all supposed to be direct descendants of the legendary 4th/5th century High King of Ireland, Niall of the Nine Hostages - Lamont, McLachlan, Sweeney (McSweeney), McNeill, McEwen and McSorley. The McSweeneys of Knapdale and the McNeills of Knapdale and Gigha were of course also Galloglass families. In fact, the entire McSweeney family moved to County Donegal as Gallowglasses in the 14th century and some of the McNeill family moved to County Antrim as Galloglasses in the 15th century. However, the McSorleys of Monydrain (just north of Lochgilphead) in Glassary/Cowall were NOT a Galloglass family. They should not be confused with the Galloglass McSorleys of Kintyre and Islay (sept of clan McDonald of Kintyre and Islay) that I wrote about in post #35. The McSorleys of Monydrain in Glassary/Cowal and the McEwens of Otter in Cowal are now both extinct (see post #38). The following article by W D H Sellar gives a fuller discussion of these 6 families plus a few others.

http://members.aol.com/Lochlan6/sellar.htm

Posted by: Chookie 5th Oct 2007, 03:59am

Thanks Paul. I always learn much that is interesting and enjoyable from your posts. I'd not known of any Irish in my background at all...until discovering a great-granny McCabe whose mother was a Maguire....so at some point I'll have to get serious about checking that connection further.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 5th Oct 2007, 11:06am

Thanks Chookie.

Maguire/McGuire and McCabe (MacCaba) are names associated with south Ulster. The Maguires are a native Gaelic Irish family from County Fermanagh. The McCabes are a Gallowglass family from the Isle of Arran who moved en masse to Counties Cavan, Monaghan and Fermanagh in the 14th century. It is sometimes alleged that the McCabes are related to the McLeods. I am very sceptical of this. The McLeods are associated with the far north west of Scotland (Lewis, Harris, Skye), a million miles from the Isle of Arran in southern Argyll. In addition, as Andrew McKerral mentions in his 2 articles (see my previous post), many of the McCabe Galloglasses used the forenames Ailin (Alan) and Somhairle (Sorley or Somerled) which would suggest that they were descendants of Somerled. The McLeods are NOT descendants of Somerled. Many of the Galloglass families that settled in Ireland were direct descendants of Somerled - McDonnell (McDonald), McDowell (McDougall), McAllister (McAlister), McCrory (McRory), McSorley (Mac Somhairle), Coll (Mac Colla), Sheehy (McSheehy) and possibly one or two others (see my earlier posts on Gallowglass). I think it is likely that the McCabes were related to the MacDonalds of Kintyre and Islay and not to the MacLeods.

In posts #46 and #47, I was also questioning the conventional wisdom that the McCallion (MacAilin) Galloglasses were related to the Campbells of Loch Awe. The Campbells are NOT descendants of Somerled (post #48). Ailin MacSomhairle (Alan McSorley) was a grandson of the legendary Somerled. So the Ailin (Alan) name was associated with the descendants of Somerled, as well as with the Campbell clan. In fact, Cailean, not Ailin, is the name associated with the Campbell clan, which has been Anglicised as Colin, not Alan. I still think there is a possibility that the McCallion (MacAilin) Gallowglasses were related to the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay and not to the Campbells of mid Argyll.

Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 7th Oct 2007, 10:46am

In the 12th and 13th centuries, quite a number of Norman families from England and Wales settled in Ireland. Over the next 3 or so centuries, most of these Norman families adopted Irish Gaelic culture and customs, including the Irish language, and they intermarried with native Gaelic Irish families. At that time, it was said by the English that the Normans in Ireland had become more Irish than the Irish themselves. Famous examples of Norman families in Ireland are Barry, Burke, Butler, Darcy, Fitzgerald, Joyce, McQuillan, Power, Staunton, Stapleton, Walsh and these surnames are now considered to be Irish.

The reason I brought up the Normans is that I wanted to discuss the McQuillan surname. The McQuillen surname actually originated in east Ulster (Antrim/Down) and was adopted by the Norman Mandeville family who settled in County Antrim in the 13th century and became immersed in Irish Gaelic culture. I think the McQuillan surname was already in existence before the arrival of the Norman Mandevilles in east Ulster. The McQuillen surname is sometimes recorded in slightly different forms : McCollin (Collins), McCullen (Cullen), McKillen (Killen), or even McWilliams. The last of these surnames - McWilliams - is actually a Scottish Planter surname in Ulster and a few McQuillans adopted this surname when they thought it would be to their advantage in the years following the 17th century Scottish Protestant Plantations. In addition, most people with the native Irish surnames of Cullen and Collins are not related to the McQuillans, though some are, especially those Cullens and Collins from the northeast of Ireland.

I have actually mentioned the McKillen surname before (see post #46) when I was discussing the McCallion Galloglass surname. The Mac Ailin Galloglasses who settled in Ireland in the 15th century Anglicised their surnames as McCallion/McCallian in Donegal and Derry and as McCallan/McCallen in County Tyrone. However it seems that some MacAilin Gallowglasses also settled in south and east Ulster around Armagh/Monaghan where the surname was Anglicised as McKillen or Killen. So in southeast Ulster the Killen or McKillen surname can be connected to either the McCallion surname of west Ulster or the McQuillan surname of east Ulster. There is also a Killeen (sometimes shortened to Killen) surname originating in Connacht (Mayo/Galway) in the west of Ireland.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 12th Oct 2007, 03:11pm

Continuing with my last post, Norman families from England and Wales settled in most parts of Ireland in the 12th and 13th centuries. However, NO Normans settled in the north west of Ireland - the lands of the O'Neills and O'Donnells. This area remained a purely Irish Gaelic stronghold right up to the 17th century Plantation of Ulster. In fact, one of the reasons for the Plantation was to finally fix the troublesome O'Neills and O'Donnells.

A famous Norman family which I forgot to mention in my last post is the Browne family of Galway. The Brownes of Galway became so assimilated into Irish Gaelic culture that they are now considered one of the 14 tribes of Galway and Browne (with an 'e') is now considered an Irish surname. However, not all the Brownes in Ireland are of Norman ancestry. Many of the Browns/Brownes in Ireland, particularly Ulster, are descendants of 17th century Protestant Planters from Scotland and England. Moreover, not all of the Catholic Brownes in Ireland are descended from 12th/13th century Norman settlers. The Brownes of Kerry are descendants of later Catholic English settlers and there is also evidence that many members of the native Gaelic Irish Breen and McBrien families in north Connacht (Mayo) and west Ulster (Donegal) adopted the Browne surname. Incidentally the Breen and McBryan surnames are still quite commonly found in south west Ulster (County Fermanagh). Finally, some of the 19th century Irish Browne immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded as Brown.

Posted by: CELTCHIC67 15th Oct 2007, 10:22am

smile.gif Hi Paul I was wondering if you could tell me where
the name GROGAN comes from it's my mother's
middle name.she was called after her grandmother
whose surname was Grogan.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 15th Oct 2007, 01:50pm

The O'Gruagain (Grogan) or O'Grugain (Groogan) surname is said to have originated in County Roscommon in the west of Ireland. According to the 1857 Griffith's Valuation, the Grogan surname was most commonly found in neighbouring County Mayo. There were 76 Grogan households in County Mayo according to the 1857 GV. The Grogan surname is also quite commonly found in west Ulster (County Tyrone) where it is often spelt Groogan or Grugan.

Posted by: CELTCHIC67 16th Oct 2007, 10:50pm

smile.gif Thanks for the info paul I will pass this onto my mum.
I was wondering where the name toner came from as
i have a relative who has family with that name and they
come from DONEGAL. Thanks

Posted by: murn 16th Oct 2007, 11:23pm

Hi Paul,
Do you have any info on the name Martin. My grandfather on my Dads side was Irish. I can't find any info on his birth, only have mariage and death certificate, both with mother and fathers names. Can't find any info on them either. tks murn

Posted by: RonD 17th Oct 2007, 12:20am

Hi Celtichic. My second cousin is a Tonner. My grandfather's sister married a Bernard Tonner.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 17th Oct 2007, 09:46am

Murn,

I briefly discussed the Martin surname in Ireland in post #195 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'. The part of Ireland in which the Martin surname is most commonly found is Ulster. In west Ulster, the Martins are mainly of native Gaelic Irish (Gilmartin/Kilmartin) extraction while in east Ulster the Martins are predominantly descended from 17th century Scottish Planters. In the south of Ireland, the Martin surname can be of native Gaelic Irish (Gilmartin) extraction, Norman extraction or English Planter extraction.

Celtichic and Ron,

Toner is a native Irish surname originating in west Ulster (Derry, Donegal, Tyrone). The Irish Gaelic form of the surname is O'Tomhrair or O'Tomhnair and is it speculated that the surname might be connected to the Norse (Norwegian) name Tomhrar. In the 9th century, the Vikings tried unsuccessfully to invade the north west of Ireland, though it is possible that a few Vikings settled in the area at this time. However, it is widely accepted that the Vikings only colonised the east and south east of Ireland around Down, Louth, Dublin, Wexford and Waterford and that there were NO Viking settlements made in the north west of Ireland. I think it is just as likely that the Toners are descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages like so many other families originating in the north west of Ireland. I should add that the Toner surname is also quite common in south east Ulster (Counties Down and Armagh) and neighbouring north Leinster (County Louth) where there were 9th century Viking settlements. It is possible that the Toner surname originated here and then at some point many of the family migrated into west Ulster.

Some of the 19th century Irish Toner immigrants to Scotland seem to have had their surname recorded as Tonner. Irish born Hugh Tonner (age 48) and Charles Tonner (age 15) (father and son I presume) were among the dead in the 1877 Blantyre Explosion which I discussed in post #32 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'.

Posted by: CELTCHIC67 17th Oct 2007, 10:09am

smile.gif Hi murn,my grandmother's name was Martin and her father's name was Peter Martin.




smile.gif Hi to you also ROND,my uncle Pat Tonner stays in glasgow but all his family stay in
DONEGAL.They have their own taxi firm over there.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 17th Oct 2007, 10:31pm

Many Scottish Protestant families settled in Ulster during the 17th century Plantations. The Scottish Planter families were overwhelmingly English speaking and came from the Scottish Lowlands such as Galloway, Ayrshire, Dumfries, Borders, Renfrewshire, Lanarkshire and the Lothians, though there were also some families from the southern Scottish Highlands such as Dunbartonshire, Stirlingshire and Argyll. The Scottish Protestant Planters and the indigenous Catholic Irish remained largely separate and mixed very little. There were very few intermarriages. The reason I have brought this up is because I want to discuss 2 Gaelic speaking Planter families from Kintyre in southern Argyll that settled in the Glens of Antrim (northeast Antrim) in the 17th century: the McCambridges and the McKillops. I have actually discussed the McCambridge surname before in post #169 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland' but I would like to return to it.

County Antrim is predominantly Protestant as a result of the 17th century Scottish Plantations, though the northern part of the county, around the Glens of Antrim, could be described as a Catholic enclave. In ancient times, the Glens of Antrim were an integral part of the northern Irish Kingdom of Dalriada from which the Scoti/Scotti migrated into Kintyre and the rest of Argyll around the start of the 6th century. The Glens of Antrim are just a short distance across the North Channel from the Kintyre Peninsula, southern Argyll. During the 17th century, it appears that most members of the McCambridge family and some members of the McKillop family moved the short distance from Kintyre to the Glens of Antrim. Despite being Protestants, it seems that many members of these 2 families intermarried with the native Catholic Irish families of the Glens and raised their children as Catholics. The relative ease with which this seems to have happened is probably due to the fact that the McCambridges and McKillops were speaking a Scottish Gaelic dialect that was almost identical to the Irish Gaelic dialect spoken in the Glens of Antrim at that time. In addition, many of the native Catholic Irish families of the Glens were actually descendants of Scottish Catholic Gallowglass families who had moved from southern Argyll (Kintyre, Islay, etc) to north Antrim in previous centuries: for example, the McDonnells (McDonalds) of Kintyre and Islay, the McAllisters (McAlisters) of Kintyre, the McAuleys (McAulays) of Islay, the McCoys (McKays) of Kintyre and Islay and the McNeills of Knapdale and Gigha. The McCambridges and the McKillops were not Galloglass families but they behaved as if they were.

Finally, another Scottish Protestant Gaelic speaking family that settled in north Antrim and north Derry in the 17th century and seems to have intermarried quite a bit with native Catholic Irish families is the McCloy family from the Isles of Bute and Arran in southern Argyll.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 18th Oct 2007, 12:01pm

I have been browsing through some websites which discuss Galloglass and two surnames that I have never mentioned before under this topic are sometimes mentioned as being Gallowglass families, namely Agnew and McAlexander.

I briefly discussed the Agnew surname in post #119 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'. Agnew is a Scottish surname originating in Galloway. In fact, the Agnews of Galloway are said to be of Norman origins. There are Agnews in east Ulster today who are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Galloway. O'Gnimh (sometimes spelt O'Gnive) is a native Gaelic Irish surname originating in east Ulster. In the years following the 17th century Scottish Protestant Plantations, the O'Gnimhs adopted Agnew as the Anglicised version of their Irish Gaelic surname. As a result, some of the Agnews in Ulster today are of native Catholic Irish O'Gnimh extraction. It is sometimes speculated that the O'Gnimhs were originally a Galloglass family from southern Argyll who came to Ulster in the 14th century to fight for the O'Neills. Under this theory, the O'Gnimhs are said to be related to the McDonnells (McDonalds) of Kintyre and Islay and are direct descendants of the 12th century King of Kintyre and the Southern Inner Hebrides - Somerled. However, I am a bit sceptical of this. Firstly, the surname O'Gnimh suggests a native Irish origin, not a Scottish Galloglass origin. Secondly, the O'Gnimhs were a literary family and were said to be hereditary bards to the O'Neill chieftains. In contrast, Galloglasses were mercenary soldiers who came to Ulster to fight for the O'Neills, O'Donnells and others, NOT to compose and recite poetry. Although it is possible that the O'Gnimhs were a Galloglass family, I am more inclined to believe that they were a native Irish family related to the O'Neills. I haven't been able to establish what exactly the evidence is which indicates the O'Gnimhs were a Gallowglass family.

One of the reasons McAlexander is sometimes mentioned as a Galloglass surname is that there was once a McDonnell (McDonald) Gallowglass commander in Ireland who used 'MacAlexander' as part of his title, though the surname of the commander was McDonnell. Another reason McAlexander is sometimes regarded as a Galloglass surname is confusion with the McAllister surname. In the 14th and 15th centuries, Scottish Catholic McAllisters from Kintyre in southern Argyll came to County Antrim as Gallowglasses. The McAllister Galloglasses were related to the McDonnells (McDonalds) of Kintyre and Islay and were direct descendants of the legendary Somerled. Furthermore, in the 17th century, Scottish Protestant McAlister Planters also settled in Ulster and, as a result, the McAllisters in Ulster today are of mixed origins: some are descended from 14th/15th century Catholic Gallowglasses while the others are descendants of 17th century Protestant Planters. In contrast, the McAlexander surname is said to have originated in Ayrshire and from what I can see, most, if not all of the McAlexanders and Alexanders in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters. I don't think McAlexander (or Alexander) can be considered a Gallowglass surname. Alexander is a common Scottish Planter surname in Ulster.

Posted by: murn 18th Oct 2007, 04:12pm

QUOTE
Hi murn,my grandmother's name was Martin and her father's name was Peter Martin.


My Dads name was Robert and he had 3 brothers, Willy, Johny & Jimmy and 2 sisters Agnes & May.
Their Dad was Joseph and Mum Marion (Taylor Smith)
Josephs Parents, John and Isabella (Preston)

I can go back on my Mums side to the 1700s and my Grand mother Marion to the early 1800s but get stuck with my Dads Irish side.

Posted by: CELTCHIC67 18th Oct 2007, 05:03pm

My great grandfather Peter Martin had 11 children there names are
Peter, John, Jim, Helen, Agnes, Sissy, Bridget, Jean, Margret, Mary And Theresa.

I don't think they had a telly, laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: Gallusbisom 18th Oct 2007, 06:36pm

Thank you for your input Paul, this is a very interesting site and provokes a lot of "whatever's" from some of us who have investigated our family trees. Your ref's are amazing and I have spent a lot of time reading the info. involved, as a novice on family research, how did you find the sites you have shared with us?

I have done quite a lot of research on my family and it seems that we have VERY strong ties to Ireland, on both sides, biggrin.gif . Mind you my info. only goes back to the early 1500's well at least that which can be authenticated anyway. Mind you, my info. only goes back to when the persons involved migrated to Scotland from Ireland. Not always Glasgow itself but sometimes, the environs.

Posted by: murn 18th Oct 2007, 07:12pm

QUOTE (CELTCHIC67 @ 18th Oct 2007, 01:20 PM) *
My great grandfather Peter Martin had 11 children there names are
PETER,JOHN,JIM,HELEN,AGNES,SISSY,BRIDGET,,JEAN,MARGRET,MARY AND THERESA.

I don't think they had a telly, laugh.gif


yeh tell me about it, My Great Gran Brebner had 12, proper little bunnies rolleyes.gif

Posted by: CELTCHIC67 18th Oct 2007, 07:40pm

MURN ,I can go one better than that,i kid you not my great grandmother on my mum's side had
14 weans.nae,telly or tranny. laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: murn 18th Oct 2007, 07:55pm

Ok Celtchic, the Bunny award goes to your Great Gran, they jist don't make women like that anymore wub.gif
I wonder how many there were tae a bed, we thought we were bad wae 3 girls in one bed biggrin.gif
Me thinks no time for telly or tranny

Posted by: GG 18th Oct 2007, 09:26pm

Stay on topic here please.

GG.

Posted by: Liquis 2nd Nov 2007, 07:31pm

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 8th Sep 2006, 12:04 PM) *
Hi rdem.

Gallagher - the most common surname in Donegal - is not considered to be a Gallowglass surname. The Gallowglass families settled in Ireland in the 14th and 15th centuries. The Gallagher surname has been in Donegal since at least the 9th century. Its origins are not known exactly but it is speculated that the name originates from a 9th century Viking (Norse) warrior who helped the Ulster Gaelic chieftains in battle against other Viking invaders to the north of Ireland.

Paul


I would have agreed until 48 hours ago and I am on one heck of a search. I received a family member's Y-STR 43 marker test. We have the surname of GALLAGHER. The test did not match Niall of the Nine Hostages. (That knocked my socks off!) Only 14/24 markers matched. 10 markers off. Each marker represents 20.5 generations at 23 years or 5125 years!!! (NO MATCH) To be directly related one has to only have 2 markers off. Our marker test actually matches COLLA UIAS, the 121st King of Ireland who was banished along his two brothers to Scoti to form the Dalriada Clans.


What a conundrum. Some theories:
The gallowglass fought under the Ui Niell and adopted the surname Gallagher...
The gallowglass is a MacAnGalloglaigh (anglicanized as: MacGallogly/Gallogy/Golightly/Ingoldsby/English)...and unmistakably put down as Gallagher?
(Gallcobair vs. Galloglaigh....)

Any thoughts?


Liquis

www.shannonhalldesigns.com....if you wish to email on this subject.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Nov 2007, 06:43am

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 4th Oct 2006, 01:45 PM) *
Still on the theme of DNA and the Y chromosome, you should try doing a GOOGLE search for

IRISH KING LEFT A WIDE GENETIC TRAIL - GENETIC GENEALOGY

It makes very interesting reading.

So it seems that the Gallaghers are not descended from a 9th century Viking warrior, but are in fact descended from a 5th century Gaelic King of Ireland, Niall of the Nine Hostages.

Many people are in fact descended from this King, especially in the northwest of Ireland - Donegal, Derry and Tyrone.

And, of course, many people in Glasgow are descendants of 19th century Irish immigrants from the northwest of Ireland, particularly County Donegal.


Hi Liquis.

This is a very interesting topic. My understanding is that some Gallagher men do in fact carry the Niall Y chromosome, though obviously not in the case of your family.

The above link IRISH KING LEFT A WIDE GENETIC TRAIL - GENETIC GENEALOGY is no longer available, but Gallagher is always given in the list of families - along with O'Neill, O'Donnell, Doherty/Docherty, Boyle, McLaughlin, etc - from the north west of Ireland who are said to be direct descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages.

http://www.oxfordancestors.com/service_kings.html
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8600.html


Colla Uais is often described as the father of Dalriada and it is claimed that many native Irish families from the north east of Ireland and Scottish families from Argyll such as the McDonalds are his direct descendants.

http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/m/macdonald_genetic.htm

I am interested to see the McCabe surname mentioned in the above article from electricscotland which suggests that the McCabes are related to the McDonalds and not to the McLeods. (see post #55)

Finally, it is said that some of the most famous Argyll families (including the McDonalds) actually have a Viking (Norse) Y chromosome, which would mean that they are NOT DIRECT descendants (in the male line) of Colla Uais. The 12th century King of Kintyre and the southern Inner Hebrides of Argyll - Somerled - was supposed to have been a direct descendant of Colla Uais but DNA evidence now suggests he was of Norse ancestry in the male line. And, of course, many of the Scottish Gallowglass families who settled in Ireland in the 14th/15th centuries were direct descendants of Somerled. (again see post #55)

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/science/DNA-shows-Celtic-hero-Somerleds.2621296.jp

Gallagher (O'Gallchobhair) means 'the foreign warrior who has come to help'. I think it is possible that the Gallaghers were 'foreign' in the sense that they might have originated in the north east of Ireland (descendants of Colla Uais?) and then at some point in ancient history they migrated to the north west of Ireland (Donegal). The Gallaghers were not a Galloglass family though the unrelated Gallogly family is a Gallowglass family. (see post #11)

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Nov 2007, 09:00am

Hi again Liquis.

I have been thinking about what I said at the end of my last post. MacAnGalloglaigh (McGallogly) means 'the son of the Galloglass' and this surname is usually Anglicised as Gallogly or Gollogly.
The Mac an Galloglaigh family were a Gallowglass family from Argyll who setted in County Donegal in the 14th century. It is likely that Galloglys were related to the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay, like so many of the other Galloglass families, and were direct descendants of Somerled. The Gallogly surname is sometimes further Anglicised as 'English' (see post #11). Incidentally, I'm sure some of the Scottish Gallowglasses who settled in Ireland were direct descendants of Colla Uais and not Somerled.

I have been looking through some records and the Gallogly, Gollogly and English surnames are very rare in Donegal. In fact, they are more commonly found in the neighbouring counties of Ulster and north Connacht.

Gallagher (O'Gallchobhair) is the most common surname in County Donegal. I think it is quite likely that most members of the Gallogly family in Donegal adopted the popular Gallagher surname. The Galloglys of Donegal were probably absorbed by the large Gallagher family of Donegal.

Having said all that Liquis, I am not sure whether you are a O'Gallchobhair or a MacAnGalloglaigh. What do you think?

Check out the end of this website. It discusses the Y-chromosome DNA of Niall Noigiallach (Niall of the Nine Hostages), Colla Uais and Somerled.

http://www.isogg.org/famousdna.htm

It is a fascinating topic.

Paul

Posted by: Liquis 3rd Nov 2007, 03:02pm

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 3rd Nov 2007, 09:17 AM) *
Hi again Liquis.

I have been thinking about what I said at the end of my last post. MacAnGalloglaigh (McGallogly) means 'the son of the Galloglass' and this surname is usually Anglicised as Gallogly or Gollogly.
The Mac an Galloglaigh family were a Gallowglass family from Argyll who setted in County Donegal in the 14th century. It is likely that Galloglys were related to the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay, like so many of the other Galloglass families, and were direct descendants of Somerled. The Gallogly surname is sometimes further Anglicised as 'English' (see post #11). Incidentally, I'm sure some of the Scottish Gallowglasses who settled in Ireland were direct descendants of Colla Uais and not Somerled.

I have been looking through some records and the Gallogly, Gollogly and English surnames are very rare in Donegal. In fact, they are more commonly found in the neighbouring counties of Ulster and north Connacht.

Gallagher (O'Gallchobhair) is the most common surname in County Donegal. I think it is quite likely that most members of the Gallogly family in Donegal adopted the popular Gallagher surname. The Galloglys of Donegal were probably absorbed by the large Gallagher family of Donegal.

Having said all that Liquis, I am not sure whether you are a O'Gallchobhair or a MacAnGalloglaigh. What do you think?

Check out the end of this website. It discusses the Y-chromosome DNA of Niall Noigiallach (Niall of the Nine Hostages), Colla Uais and Somerled.

http://www.isogg.org/famousdna.htm

It is a fascinating topic.

Paul



Paul,

Thank you for your interest. It is a conundrum and I have been pouring over available information.
My theory is that we did adopt or someone made us adopt the Gallagher last name. Every time I compare the marker test, these are the current surnames with tests posted that we are probably related to right now (I only included tests that had only two marker mutations out of 24):

MacDonald
MacCabe
Roache/Roach/Roche
Tate
Quinn
Coll
MacCauley
O'Donnell
Sweeney

I read further that the MacDonald DNA project on Colla Uias is a collection of modern tests distilled to make Colla's markers. It was pointed out that this was really a collection of Dalriada markers as opposed to a single person. My relative who donated his genetic material matched exactly except for one marker at the rate of two mutations. It is the 385a. "Colla's" is a value of 11. Ours is a 9. This is also a mystery in itself because every test I have come across is either a 10 or 11. This 9 is disturbing me and I am wondering its meaning...

On a different note, I know my seventh generation surname IS Gallagher. I have documents and certificates from Donagal Ancestry which shows my USA immigrant relation, Hugh Gallagher, was born and Christened on August 10th, 1809 in Glenfanet Clondavaddog Church of Ireland. His father and mother, Patrick and Mary, were married on January 13, 1807. That is all the further I can go because of "the conditions which prevailed in Ireland in the late 18th and 19th centuries". I am at a dead end. I was hoping this marker test could help me reconnect up. However as one can see, it raises more questions.

Now the question is, if we were Gallowglass, were we MacAnGallogly? Or were we another Gallowglass:

First Tier: MackSweeney, MacDonald, MacSheehy, MacDougal, MacCabe, MacRoy

Lesser Known: MacAulay, MacSorely, MacNeill, MacGreal, MacAnGhear, MacAnGalloglaigh, MacClean, MacAilin, MacCawell, MacCampbell, MacEllin, MacAlister, MacAlexander, Mac Phaidin

Posted by: Capone 3rd Nov 2007, 04:20pm

Does anyone know the origin and meaning of the surname Wedemire ?

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Nov 2007, 06:13pm

Germany, no idea of meaning. Certainly no connection with Scotland or Ireland!

Posted by: Paul Kelly 15th Nov 2007, 06:02am

In posts #56 and #57 I mentioned 12 common Irish surnames of Norman origins. Some other Irish surnames of Norman origins are Barrett, Costello, Cusack, Dalton, Dillon, Fitzgibbons, Fitzsimons, French, Grace, Jordan, Keating, Nugent, Plunkett, Purcell, Redmond, Roche, Savage and Tobin.

It is often assumed that the Fitzpatrick surname is also of Norman origin. However, it is actually the only Fitz surname that is of native Gaelic Irish origin - Mac Giolla Phadraig - meaning the son of the servant of St Patrick. See post #195 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Dec 2007, 11:31am

The Gallowglass

I want to update post #24 of this topic as I missed out a couple of surnames - McCoy and Gallogly - and I want to reclassify the McFadden surname given what I said about it in post #35 of this topic and in post #145 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'.

There seems to have been just over 20 Scottish Catholic Gallowglass (Galloglass) families from the south west Highlands of Scotland - Argyll - who settled in Ireland - mainly Ulster - in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries before the late 16th century Scottish Reformation. It is undoubtedly the case that these Galloglas families came originally from mainland Argyll (Kintytre, Knapdale, Glassary, Cowal and Lorn) and the surrounding southern Inner Hebridean islands (Islay, Jura, Colonsay, Gigha, Arran and Bute). This area of Scotland of course corresponds to what was once the ancient Scotti Kingdom of Dalriada (Dal Riata). In fact, many of the Gallowglas families seem to have come from southern Argyll (Kintyre, Islay, Arran). In addition, many of them seem to have been related to the McDonald family of Kintyre and Islay and were direct descendants of the 12th century King of Kintyre and the Southern Inner Hebrides - Somerled.

The following 10 Gallowglass surnames are now considered to be Irish surnames because these families seem to have relocated EN MASSE from Argyll to Ireland as Galloglass in the 14th and 15th centuries. People in Scotland today with these 10 surnames are almost certainly descendants of 19th century Catholic Irish immigrants.

Sweeney (Donegal), Coll (Donegal), Gallogly (Donegal), McCallion (Donegal, Derry), McRory or McCrory (sometimes Anglicised as Rogers or Rodgers) (Derry, Tyrone), McSorley (Tyrone), McGirr (sometimes Anglicised as Short or Shortt) (Tyrone, Armagh), McCabe (Cavan, Monaghan), McGreal (Mayo), Sheehy (Munster)

While some of the McRorys/McCrorys of Derry/Tyrone are of Galloglass origins, the others are in fact descended from a native Gaelic Irish family of the same name. The Gallowglass and native Gaelic Irish McRory families of Derry/Tyrone have become indistinguishable from one another, though experts seem to think that the native family probably outnumbered the Galloglass family and absorbed the Galloglas family into its ranks (see post #52).
There is also a small proviso about the McGirr surname (see post #45).

The next set of 11 Gallowglass surnames are still considered to be Scottish surnames as these families did NOT move EN MASSE from Scotland to Ireland. Only SOME members of these families relocated from Argyll to Ireland as Galloglass in the 14th and 15th centuries. Many remained in Scotland.

McDonald (usually spelt McDonnell in Ireland), McAlister (sometimes spelt McAllister in Ireland), McDougall (usually spelt McDowell in Ireland), McAulay (usually spelt McAuley or McCauley in Ireland), McKay (sometimes spelt McCoy in Ireland), McFadyen (usually spelt McFadden in Ireland), McLean (sometimes spelt McClean in Ireland), McIntyre (sometimes spelt McAteer in Ireland), McCallum (usually spelt McCollum in Ireland), McNeill and Campbell.

There are Catholics in Ulster today with these 11 surnames who are descendants of 14th/15th century Scottish Gallowglass settlers. In addition, there are also Protestants in Ulster today with these 11 surnames who are descendants of 17th century Scottish Planters.

While some of the Catholic McCauleys, McFaddens, McAteers/McIntyres, McCollums and Campbells in Ulster are of Galloglass origins, the others are in fact descended form native Gaelic Irish families of the same names. (In a similar way to the McRory family which I discussed earlier in the post).

While a few of the Protestant McDowells in Ulster are descendants of 17th century McDougall Planters from Argyll, most of them are in fact descended from 17th century McDowall Planters from Galloway. The McDougall family of Argyll and the McDowall family of Galloway are said to be unrelated. The Catholic McDowells in Ulster are descendants of 14th century McDougall Gallowglasses from Lorne in Argyll and it seems that most of them adopted the common Irish surname of Doyle. Doyle is a very common surname in the east of Ireland, though most of the Doyles in Ireland are not of Galloglass McDowell (McDougall) origin but are of direct Viking extraction.

There are 2 other Scottish surnames that are sometimes mentioned as being Galloglas surnames on other websites - Agnew and Alexander (McAlexander) - though I am sceptical that they are Gallowglas surnames, especially in the case of the Alexander surname. (See post #66)

Finally, it amazes me the extent to which the history of the Scottish Gallowglass has been ignored by Scottish historians. The Galloglass are just a footnote in Scottish history. Most studies of Gallowglass history have been done by Irish historians and even these are limited.

Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 15th Dec 2007, 02:35pm

St Catan was a 6th century Irish (Ulster) monk and was a contemporary of St Columba (St Columcille). Like St Columba, St Catan was one of the Irish missionary monks who introduced Christianity to Scotland. It is known that St Catan spent time in southern Argyll - Kintyre, Bute, Arran and Gigha. It seems St Catan had a devoted following in both Ireland and Scotland.

Mac Giolla Chatain is an Irish surname originating in north Ulster (Derry, Antrim and north Tyrone). Mac Gille Chatain is a Scottish surname originating in southern Argyll (Kintyre). Both these surnames mean 'son of the devotee of St Catan'. It is possible that the Mac Giolla Chatain family of north Ulster and Mac Gille Chatain family of Kintyre are actually the same family. If you look at a map, north Ulster and southern Argyll (Kintyre) are right next to each other. Alternatively, the names could have arisen independently in Ireland and Scotland amongst separate Irish and Scottish followers of the saint. No one knows for sure, though the latter explanation seems more likely.

There is a dispute over where St Catan is buried. The Irish claim he is buried in County Derry. The Scots claim he is buried on the Isle of Bute.

The Mac Giolla Chatain and Mac Gille Chatain families of Ireland and Scotland are relatively small, especially the Scottish family. The Mac Gille Chatain surname of Kintyre was usually Anglicised as Hatton (or occasionally McHatton or McIlhatton). The Mac Giolla Chatain surname of north Ulster was usually Anglicised as McElhatton or McIlhatton (or occasionally McHatton or Hatton). The Mac Gille Chatain family of Kintyre adopted the Protestant religion in the late 16th century following the Scottish Reformation. Furthermore, in the 17th century, a few Scottish Protestant Mac Gille Chatain Planters from Kintyre settled in Ulster. The McElhatton/McIlhatton/McHatton/Hatton surname can be found in Counties Derry, Antrim and Tyrone of Ulster today. While most are said to be of native Irish stock, some are likely to be of Scottish Planter extraction.

Incidentally, Hatton is also an English surname and the name is also found in the south east of Ireland (Leinster). The Leinster Hattons are said to be of English extraction.

Posted by: Bernard E. Donahue 5th Jan 2008, 03:26pm

Paul:

Thank you for this very helpful information. My great-great-grandfather was Mathew McSorley from County Tyrone, likely either from Beragh or Sixmilecross. In 1848, he married my great-great-grandmother, Jane KELLY, of Gortfin in the Parish of Termonmaguirk. The emigrated to Philadelphia in 1850. Are you, by chance, related to the Kellys of County Tyrone?

Posted by: Paul Kelly 6th Jan 2008, 08:11am

Hi Bernard.

The McSorleys were a family from Kintyre and Islay (sept of the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay) in southern Argyll who moved en masse to County Tyrone as Gallowglasses in the 14th century. Here, they quickly intermarried with the local native Irish families of County Tyrone such as the Kellys and were assimilated into Ulster Gaelic culture (see post #35). I have discussed the McSorleys in many posts of this topic (#5, #24, #35, #38, #41, #53, #55, #81 and #83). I remember reading an article sometime ago about the McSorleys of County Tyrone in which it was claimed that SOME of the McSorleys of Tyrone are probably of native Irish extraction. While McSorley Galloglasses undoubtedly settled in Tyrone in the 14th century, it also seems likely that a few native Irish people also adopted the McSorley surname such was their admiration for the Gallowglass family. I think this might have been true for all the Galloglass families that settled in Ireland/Ulster. The Gallowglass were admired by the native Irish for their fighting prowess. There is a yellow rectangular box near the bottom of this page with the words Enter Keywords written in it. If you type McSorley and then press Search Topic you will get all the posts that mention McSorley. You should then repeat the search with the word McSorleys as post #38 will not show up in the 1st search. Somerled is another keyword you can try.

My Kelly ancestors came from the Ballybofey/Stranorlar area of south east Donegal which is not far from the border with County Tyrone. I discussed the Kellys of west Ulster at length in post #201 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'. I think the Kellys of west Ulster (Derry, Donegal and Tyrone) all belong to the same branch of the Kelly family (originating in Derry) and they are said to be direct descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages.

I have visited Ireland once, in the summer of 1991. I actually cycled around the coast of Ireland (from Larne to Larne in a clockwise direction). It took me about 4 weeks. I was exhausted at the end of it, but it was a great experience. I had a lot of fun along the way, especially in the Connemara region of County Galway, where I ended up staying longer than I'd planned. Towards the end of my journey, I spent a couple of nights in Ballybofey, Donegal where I met up with some of my dad's cousins (not Kelly cousins but Rutherford and Brady cousins who were nephews and neices of my paternal grandmother). I remember them telling me that they often went to Strabane, County Tyrone in Northern Ireland to do their shopping as things were cheaper there. I didn't meet up with any of my Kelly relatives in Donegal, but I have since established contact with a few of them via the internet in recent years. I am regularly in touch with a Kelly 3rd cousin of mine who stays in Stranorlar. I regret not spending more time in Donegal during my trip but I was running out of holiday time when I reached there. I intend visiting Donegal again one day. The part of Ireland which I found the most beautiful was the southern part of County Down in Northern Ireland around the Mourne mountains. The area just to the north of the Mourne Mountains was how I had always imagined Ireland to look. I didn't go to County Armagh to look up any of my mum's distant relatives. The closest I got to Armagh was the town of Newry in south Down, where I crossed the border to the Republic. I wasn't that interested in genealogy back then, though I think the trip planted a genealogical seed in me.

Paul

Posted by: Brian Killen 20th Jan 2008, 12:25pm

Hi Paul,

I noticed your mentioning that you thought (Mc)Killen could be possibly a connection of McDonald. Not sure of your source but you could be right. My surname has been on record in county Down in the North of Ireland since available records begin in 17th century. The Norse-Gael gallowglass origins has been know to me and genealogy books tend to build on the Campbell connection.

However, after recently taking a DNA test of my y-chromosome to make a (successful) connection to another Killen branch in the USA (left the same part of county Down in the mid 19th century), one of my long lost cousins noticed that my DNA( & by inference her father's) match a subgroup of the McDonalds (from the Clan Donald website).

Brian.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 22nd Jan 2008, 01:32pm

Hi Brian.

You must be referring to what I wrote in posts #46, #47, #48, #55, #56.
I was actually just putting forward a proposition. I didn't have a source. As you say, genealogy books and websites invariably describe the Mac Ailin Galloglasses as being a branch of the Campbells of Argyll primarily because they associate the name 'Ailin' with the Campbells of Argyll. Unless I am somehow mistaken, it struck me one day that it is the name Cailean (Colin) which is associated with the Campbells of Argyll and NOT the name Ailin (Alan) (see post #55 for a fuller discussion of this). In addition, some of the MacAilin (McCallion/McKillen) Galloglasses further Anglicised their surnames to Campbell in the years following the Plantations, especially in County Donegal, again fuelling speculation that the MacAilins were in someway related to the Campbells of Argyll.

I have been interested in Gallowglass history for some time now and it has not escaped my notice that most of the Galloglass families who settled in Ireland seem to have been related to the MacDonalds of southern Argyll (Kintyre and Islay). I was just putting forward the proposition that the MacAilin Gallowglasses may have in fact been related to the McDonalds and not the Campbells, and hoping for some sort of response. What you have said about the result of your Y chromosome DNA test is very interesting. I would love to hear the Y chromosome DNA test results of a group of Donegal McCallion men.

Paul

Posted by: Brian Killen 22nd Jan 2008, 06:08pm

Hi Paul,

thanks for the prompt response , just thought that you would like to know you were right!

The y-chromosome not only helped prove a common ancestor but it also tested for what is a called a halplogroup. These are genetic mutations amongst populations. Mine is "I" which apparently indicates a central European origin in my distant paternal ancestry, most likely Scandinavian and more likely Norwegian (in the very distant past). So that ties in with the Norse-Gael gallowglass proposal.

The I haplogroup cleared up the issue of my missing prefix (the Mac), as had my origins been Killeen in the West of Ireland then it should have been (probably) R1b. I have this Killeen (O'Cillin) ancestry in another branch of my family tree. Even though my spelling is Killen (now pronouced "Kill-in" my great grandfather pronouced it "Killeen" as late at 1911,also spelt that way in several documents). As you know with MacAilin, there is an accent called a fada on the the second letter "i" which broadens the pronunciation to the English sounding double (ee).

It was my chance my new-found relative was researching the Clan (Mac) Donald website that she noticed the most of my (and her father's) genetic markers were the same as several of the McDonalds (sub clan McReynolds) listed, so the credit to that one belongs to her (Pat). Any variation indicates the statistical probability in time of when there was a common ancestor. Probably hundreds of years ago but related none the less.

The haplogroup was further refined to the I1c variant. Yes, it would be interesting to have more results to make comparison with West Ulster (and those in county Antrim where Killen and McKillen are still common). Anyway, just thought I would post so that there would be visibility for other other people with an interest in the topic.

Brian.

Posted by: Brian Killen 6th Feb 2008, 08:22pm

Hi Paul,

Some further research....

as I said I match with a subgroup of McDonalds at....

http://dna-project.clan-donald-usa.org/tables.htm

The haplogroup I1c ....


as you said it would be interesting find the DNA results of McCallion men from Donegal to see if there was a link. I searched for some information on the internet (McCallion/DNA/Donegal).

First a digression....

Further the Clan Donald website seems to indicate that I1c could be specific to Ulster and Northern Britain....

source: http://dna-project.clan-donald-usa.org/DNAmain4.htm

"... while the I1c variety is more typically native British (Pictish or native Ulster). ...."


my search for McCallion in Donegal brought me to......

source: http://dohertyclann.homestead.com/files/April1998.htm

"... Robert Bell, a noted researcher and author, out of the Linen Hall Library, tells of a respected Chieftain, Ailean O'Dochartaigh, who was famous as a leader and warrior. And thus, his children became known as McAilean (children of Ailean). It was anglicised as McCallion. .."


Then I searched for DNA results for O'Doherty..... If Robert Bell is correct then I might match for O'Doherty DNA...... assuming that was the paternal line....

source: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/doherty/index.aspx?fixed_columns=on

Of the O'Doherty names listed the "majority" are I1c (and J which is related). By my checking of the available markers, I match for 25 exactly and the 7 STRs are off by one...


So it would appear that I match with O'Dohertys also, which is a well established Irish "Clan", guess the question is why is there a subgroup of McDonalds/McReynolds" matching for I1c? It could be that they were also O'Doherty by origin but by Gaelic naming convention certain O'Dohertys adopted their fathers' names (Donald and Ranald) and their descendents became McDonalds and McReynolds and have been lumped in with the Scottish McDonald grouping??. As the reference at the Clan Donald states above the I1c by their source? is specific to Ulster. All a work in progress.....

All the best,

Brian.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 8th Feb 2008, 02:35pm

Hi Brian.

I must confess I don't know much about haplogroups associated with the McDonalds/McDonnells, though I do find the topic very interesting.

I have heard of the alleged link between the McCallions and the Dohertys and I briefly mentioned it in post #47. While most of the McCallions of Donegal/Derry are undoubtedly of Galloglass origins, it is alleged that a few of the McCallions are related to the native Irish O'Dochartaigh (O'Doherty) family.

The O'Dohertys originated in north east Donegal (Inishowen Peninsula) and they are said to be one of the north west of Ireland families who are direct descendants (in the male line) of Niall of the Nine Hostages. The Dohertys were not a Gallowglass family, though they probably interacted with some of the Scottish Gallowglass settlers in Donegal. Being direct descendants of Niall, you would expect many men with the Doherty/Dogherty/Dougherty/Docherty surname to belong to the R1b1c7 (M222) haplogroup. Many in fact do!

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/index.aspx?fixed_columns=on

The 20 or so Scottish Gallowglass families who settled in Ulster in the 14th, 15th and early 16th centuries - prior to the Scottish Reformation - heavily intermarried with the native Irish families of Ulster (unlike the large numbers of 17th Scottish Protestant Planter families in Ulster who remained largely separate.) There is also the possibility that some of the native Irish adopted Gallowglass surnames or joined Galloglass families and vice versa.

Posted by: Brian Killen 10th Feb 2008, 03:16pm

Hi Paul,

all a work in progress, thanks for the comments, as more people get tested it will hopefully provide a better picture. if i've any additional information, i'll post to the board, thanks.Brian.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 12th Feb 2008, 07:06pm

The surnames of Campbell and McCall are generally regarded to be Scottish surnames. However, a significant minority of people with these surnames are of native Irish extraction.

Expanding on post #46, the native Irish surname name of Mac Cathmhaoil originated in the Clogher district of County Tyrone - South Tyrone. The MacCathmhaoils are said to be direct descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages. In pre-Plantation times they were a powerful family in County Tyrone and they also extended into the neighbouring counties of Monaghan, Cavan and Donegal.

In the years following the 17th century Plantations of Ulster, the MacCathmhaoil surname was usually Anglicised as Campbell in County Tyrone, as McCaul or McCall in Counties Monaghan and Cavan, and as McCahill in County Donegal. Incidentally, the County Donegal surname of McCahill should not be confused with the southern Irish surname of Cahill (O'Cathail in Irish Gaelic).

As I have mentioned in several of my previous posts, many of the Campbells in County Donegal are descendants of 15th century Scottish Catholic McCallion (originally MacAilin) Gallowglasses from Argyll. Some of the Donegal McCallions further Anglicised their surnames to Campbell in the years following the Plantations. (see post #86)

Mac Colla is a Scottish Gaelic surname originating in Argyll. This surname has been Anglicised as MacColl or McColl. Colla - from Colla Uais (see posts #75 and #76) - is a forename associated with the MacDonalds of Argyll. Unsurprisingly, the McColls are said to be closely related to the McDonalds. There seems to have been 2 branches of the Argyll McColls. The more famous branch was found in northern Argyll (Lorn, Appin and Lismore). The southern branch - most likely the original branch - was found around Loch Fyne (Glassary), extending westwards onto the southern Inner Hebridean islands of Jura, Colonsay and Islay. The southern branch of the Argyll MacCollas seems to have largely disappeared, probably because many members of this branch moved to County Donegal as Gallowglasses in the 15th/early 16th century. The MacColla Gallowglasses who settled in County Donegal quickly intermarried with native Irish families and the MacColla surname was usually Anglicised as Coll in County Donegal. In fact, Coll is now considered to be a County Donegal surname.

There is a large Lowland Scottish McCall family originating in Dumfries, Galloway and Ayrshire. They are said NOT to be related to the McColls of Argyll. Some websites claim that the McCalls of Dumfries, Galloway and Ayrshire are a branch of the McAulays of Ardincaple, Dunbartonshire (see post #51), who relocated to Dumfries. Other websites dismiss this notion and say that the original Scottish Gaelic form of the McCall surname of Dumfries was probably MacCathail.

Many of the Campbells and McCalls in Ulster today - particularly east Ulster - are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Campbell, McCall and McColl Planters. However, many of the Campbells in west Ulster (Tyrone) and McCauls/McCalls in south Ulster (Monaghan and Cavan) are of native Irish MacCathmhaoil extraction. In addition, many of the Campbells in County Donegal are of Mac Ailin Gallowglass extraction, and all the Colls in County Donegal are said to be of Mac Colla Galloglass extraction.

Posted by: McGugan 22nd Feb 2008, 12:41pm

Hi Paul, you're knowledge on this subject is quite astounding!

My own name is McGoogan, although recorded at earlier dates in birth/mariage/death extracts as McGugan. I think this is the same name as MacGugan, McGougan, Macgugan. In Scotland, people of this name are found almost exculsively in Gigha, the Kintyre peninsula and Knapdale. The coastal areas of Antrim & Down also seem to have a scattering of McGugan's of the various spellings. The name is quite rare generally.

The name seems to be associated heavily with Clan Macneil. Some accounts state the 42nd Clan Chief as Donald McGougan. I was wondering if you knew anything of the name, the family in relation to the Gallowglass migrations, particularly in relation to the migratrion of the Macneil's into Ulster?


My Great, Great Grandfather, Patrick McGugan, came to Glasgow from Ballymena around 1850. The family has remained Catholic. I think in Argyll, people of this name are mostly Episcopalian.

If you could shed any light on this name and it's origins or connections, I'd be most thankful.

James McGoogan

Posted by: Marie Purtill 21st Mar 2008, 06:42pm

I wonder if the surname McDonagh is of scottish origins Paul, perhaps a corruption of McDonald?

Marie

Posted by: RonD 23rd Mar 2008, 04:06pm

Have a look a this,
http://www.themcdonoughs.us/McDonough_Name.htm

Posted by: Bernard Donahue 26th Mar 2008, 03:35am

Thanks again for all of the information. Possibly we are distant Kelly cousins; then again, we could be otherwise related - my grandmother was a Brady! I am northwest Irish for sure; my YDNA result is R1b1c7, the Northwest Irish haplogroup - reportedly descendants of Naill of the Nine Hostages through the Donohoes of County Cavan. I'm sure that I'm descended from Naill through other ancestors too - the Gallaghers, the Kanes and the Boyles. Your observation of a link between the Irish and the Highland Scots may be challenged by these DNA results - the R1b1c7 haplogroup is centered in Northwest Ireland, but also in Lowland Scotland. See: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7.

Posted by: RonD 26th Mar 2008, 11:27am

Bernard, I went to the link and it was fascinating, it only strengthens my resolve to have my DNA done this year. Just saving my bawbees to do so. I am presuming that it will fit in to the Irish Modal type but not the Northwest group even though most of my ancestry fits there in the maternal side. Just going by my own name Dempsey and if the paternal side is unbroken I should be with the more southern group from O'Dempsey that may change if I do find myself in the northwest group from the possibility that my surnames was from the lesser known MacDempseys of county Down ( usually McGimpsy)

Posted by: Brian Killen 9th Apr 2008, 11:46am

Hi Paul,

Update based on DNA results from several sources. I recently came across the Trinity College Dublin Irish surname project. (http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php). A work in progress to map Irish surnames based on y-chromosome testing.

When I examined the McGuinness data available on the speadsheet I noticed very close similarities to my own DNA profile. Further guidance from the Magennis (and spelling variants) DNA project coordinator confirmed my thoughts, so it looks like my Killens are either a branch of McGuinnesses or at least share the same ancestry before the adoption of surnames. Out of the Trinity data (20 markers tested, I was able to compare 17 (dna.ancestry.com did n't test for three of the Trinity ones), 16 matched. Other McGuinness dna results at ysearch.org and familytreedna (28/32 markers matching)showed the same trend.

I know of another Killen close to where I live in county Down who also had the y-chromsome test recently whose haplogroup was R1b (mine is I1c) so a different paternal ancestor and no relation. Therefore, at least two different origins in county Down for the Killen surname. Still does n't rule out that MacKillens/MacCallions are gallowglass. Hopefully, as more people get tested, origins will become clearer. The area where I came from in county Down was Magennis heartland so it works from that perspective.

Brian.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 20th Apr 2008, 03:50pm

Hi James McGoogan.

As you mentioned in your post, McGugan/McGoogan (Mac Eochagain or Mac Guagain) is a rare Scottish surname originating in Knapdale and Kintyre in southern Argyll. The McGoogans are said to have been related to the McNeills of Knapdale and Gigha.

I can't find a single reference to the McGoogans in Ireland being of Gallowglass origin.

Some of the McNeills in Ulster are certainly descendants of 15th century Scottish Catholic Galloglasses from Knapdale and Gigha. The other McNeills in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters.

As I mentioned in post #44 of this topic, the McNeill Gallowglasses who settled in the Province of Connacht in the west of Ireland (Counties Mayo and Leitrim) became known by the surname McGreal/McGrail.

The McGoogan/McGookin surname in Ireland is pretty much restricted to County Antrim and the Antrim McGoogans are said to be descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters.

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/magazine/articles/uhf_armoy1.htm

You said your McGoogan ancestors from County Antrim were Catholics. While Protestant/Catholic intermarriages in Ulster have never been that common, they did happen occasionally, so you might be of Scottish Planter ancestry.

Alternatively, you might be of native Irish ancestry. McGuigan (Mag Uiginn) is a native Irish surname originating in County Tyrone and McGuckin/McGuckian (Mag Eochaidhin or Mag Eochain) is a native Irish surname originating in County Derry. Counties Tyrone and Derry are of course adjacent to County Antrim and some of the McGoogans in Antrim - especially the Catholic McGoogans - might really be McGuigans or McGuckins.

Moreover, many of the 19th century Irish immigrants to Scotland were illiterate and had their surnames recorded incorrectly. (See my introductory post to the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'). I think it is highly likely that some of the 19th century Irish McGuigan and McGuckin immigrants to Scotland - especially those arriving in the early/mid 19th century - would have had their surnames recorded incorrectly as McGoogan/McGugan, a surname which would have been familiar to Scottish officials.

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname

http://www.hoganstand.com/general/Identity/folk.htm

Posted by: James McGoogan 24th Apr 2008, 12:16pm

Hi Paul,

James McGoogan again! Thanks for the info.

Something I left out of the original post was about the oral traditions of the family history.

My Grandfather (b 1913 Glasgow) would tell us that he would be told stories by his own Grandfather (b1845 Ballymena) of his ancestors flight from Argyll to Antrim due to being pursued by the ghillies for cattle rustling, and their number very much being up as far as Argyll was concerned.

The Catholic/Protestant thing does make it a little bit more interesting. With many highlanders converting to Episcopalianism, I felt that maybe my own ancestors may have been episcopalian but worshipped as Catholic in Antrim then as Catholic on their return to Scotland? Or maybe had that been the case they could be expected to have worshiped as Church of Ireland? V. confusing.

I suppose the only way to put the mystery to bed is to have the DNA looked at to see if the heritage is Irish or Gael.

Cheers, James McGoogan

Posted by: Paul Kelly 24th Apr 2008, 04:10pm

Thanks James.

It is nice to hear of your oral family history. Such things are rare in families these days.

By the early 17th century, southern Argyll (Kintyre, Knapdale, Jura, Islay, Gigha, Arran, Bute, etc) had turned completely Protestant (both Presbyterian and Episcopalian) as a result of the late 16th century Scottish Reformation.

Given your oral family history, it seems likely that the McGoogans who moved from southern Argyll to Antrim in the 17th century (and possibly later) were Protestants, a few of whom must have intermarried with the local Catholic families of Antrim and raised their children as Catholics.

In fact, it sounds like some members of the McGoogan Scottish Planter family of Antrim behaved like some members of the McCambridge and McKillop Scottish Planter families of Antrim, both of whom had ALSO come originally from the Kintyre peninsula in southern Argyll.

Most of the 17th century Scottish Protestant Planter families in Ulster were English (Lallans) speakers from the Scottish Lowlands. However, the Planter families that came from southern Argyll were Gaelic speaking. In fact, they were probably speaking a dialect of Scottish Gaelic that was almost identical to the Irish Gaelic spoken by the locals in Antrim in the 17th century given the short distance between Antrim and Kintyre. There had always been strong links between the families of north Antrim and the Kintyre peninsula going back to the days of Dalriada and also because of Gallowglass settlements in Antrim.

See Post #65 of this topic for a fuller discussion of this.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=163013

Paul

Posted by: James McGoogan 25th Apr 2008, 04:20pm

Indebted to you Paul. Thanks for all the info.

James

Posted by: Fink Ployd 5th May 2008, 01:35pm

Paul - your knowledge is amazing. I have a lot of Irish surnames in my family, but the one that I am most interested in is Soulter, which I believe is Scotish in origin. My Coulter family come from Ballymena, Ulster, and I was wondering if you knew anything of the surname.

Thanks if you can help,

Fionntán.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 5th May 2008, 05:58pm

Hi Fintan.

Coulter is a Scottish surname and is said to have 2 origins in Scotland: Lanarkshire and Aberdeenshire, though the surname is found throughout Scotland and is probably most common in Ayrshire.

Coulter is also a common surname in east Ulster (Antrim and Down), and most Coulters in Ulster are undoubtedly descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters.

Ballymena is in County Antrim and it is highly likely your Coulter ancestor was of Scottish Planter extraction.

According to the Irish genealogist Patrick Woulfe, Coulter is occasionally a native Irish surname. Woulfe claims that the native Gaelic Irish surname of O'Coltair or O'Coltarain, originating in the southeastern part of County Down (Ballyculter parish), was Anglicised as Coulter/Colter in the years following the 17th century Plantations. Ballyculter (the place of Coltair) in County Down is first mentioned in the early 14th century, so Woulfe's assertion may very well be true. I have had a look through the International Genealogical Index and it is clear that the vast majority of Coulters in County Down are of Scottish Protestant (Presbyterian) extraction, though some of the Coulters in southeast Down could be native Catholic Irish.

http://www.surnamedb.com/surname.aspx?name=Coulter

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname

When I first read your post, the Northern Irish songwriter Phil Coulter immediately came to mind. Phil Coulter was born in the city of Derry in 1942, though his father, Phil senior, came from the village of Strangford, Ballyculter parish, County Down. They are a Catholic family.

http://www.philcoulter.com/a_life/a_beginning.html

This is Phil's most famous song (The Town I Loved So Well), sung live by Luke Kelly and the Dubliners.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55OBEs98Pj4

Posted by: Fink Ployd 6th May 2008, 06:00pm

Thanks.

The other surname I was wondering about was McSweeney (mac Suibhne.) I have read that it was a common name in Donegal, but I have had Mc Sweeney family in Cork for a long time and I wondered if you knew anything more about the origins of the surname in Southern Ireland.

Once again - thanks.

Posted by: ToriG 10th May 2008, 05:26pm

Wow, I havent read through all of these postings, yet I find them quite interesting and, at the begining comical, (no joke intended) just having a laugh here in my own thoughts.

Fink Ployd, due to your name is really what attracted me to this post, then the interest of the name Paul Kelly.

We have a Musician here in Australia with the name Paul Kelly, which I have an interest in...Fantastic lyrical poet, "I think anyways".

My Mothers name is Adair and my Fathers, Gourlay, are you able to tell me anything on the lines of these. Fink Ployd,/Paul Kelly

Posted by: RonD 10th May 2008, 11:01pm

Hi Tori:
On the surface the sound very much like Scottish names. Gourlay has its origins in an English name and is recorded as a surname name in 1174 in Scotland. However, in Ireland it may have originated from Scottish planters or the Irish name MacGourley sometime MacTurley the names originated in Tyrone and Antrim. Adair is again another Scottish name possibly a variation of the personal name Edgar. However, again it maybe from Scottish settlers or from the Irish O Daire, from County Offaly. Hope this helps.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 11th May 2008, 10:11am

Hi Fink Ployd.

I have written a lot about the Sweeney surname in this topic. If you enter Sweeney in the yellow search box near the bottom of this page, you will see all the posts that mention Sweeney. In particular, I would refer you to posts #30 and #53.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=161147
http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=126518

You were asking about the Sweeney surname in County Cork. The MacSuibhne Galloglasses migrated en masse from Knapdale, Argyll to Fanad, Donegal in the early 14th century where they served the O'Donnells. In the late 15th century it seems that some of the Donegal Sweeneys migrated to County Cork in the south of Ireland to serve the McCarthys. The services of the Sweeneys were in demand!

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=History&Surname=Sweeney&UserID=


Hi Tori,

As Ron mentioned, Adair and Gourlay are Lowland Scottish surnames. The surnames of Adair and Gourley are also found in Ireland, especially Ulster. The vast majority of Adairs in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters (from Galloway?), though the Irish genealogist Patrick Woulfe claims that a few may be members of the native Irish O'Daire family. Some of the Gourleys in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Gourlay Planters, whereas the others are members of the native Irish Mag Thoirdealbhaigh family, some of whom Anglicised their surnames as Gourley in the years following the Plantations. The Mac Thoirdealbhaigh surname was also sometimes Anglicised as Turley or even Terry.

The Adair surname in notorious in County Donegal, due to one man. In April 1861, John George Adair - of Scottish descent - evicted all 47 families (244 people) from the Derryveagh district of Gartan, County Donegal to make way for imported Scottish sheep. Many of the families ended up in Australia. Some of the evicted families were Bradley (5), Ward (McAward) (5), Sweeney (4), Doohan (4), Doherty (4), Friel (4) and there was also a single Kelly family. The episode is known as the Derryveagh Evictions and there are many articles on the internet about it.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/gartan/derryveagh.htm

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/billsderryveagh.htm

Paul

Posted by: Fink Ployd 11th May 2008, 11:19am

Gourlay - http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.fc/qx/gourlay-family-crest.htm

A Pre-Norman Scottish name.

Adair - Adair is a Gaelic forename and surname meaning 'ford by the oak tree' - I do not kow of its use as a surname. Whenever I se h ame Adair, istnty think of Johnny Adair aka 'Mad Dog', th infaous Northern Irish loyalist paramilitary.

Hopefuly this may be of some help with the Adair surname.

http://www.searchforancestors.com/surnames/origin/a/adair.php

I'l get back to you with some more info later.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 11th May 2008, 04:07pm

Hi again ToriG.

I forgot to mention in my earlier post that I have Gourlay relatives from Glasgow, though I know little about them. My grandfather James Kelly (born Garngad 1895) had one sister Rose Ann Kelly (born Garngad 1899). According to the scotlandspeople.gov.uk website, Rose married a Robert Gourlay from Farme House, Rutherglen, Lanarkshire in June 1918. Rose was 19 and Robert was 44 at the time of the marriage. It seems to have been a non-religious ceremony (neither Protestant nor Catholic), which was unusual for that time. They seem to have married in a civil ceremony at 27 Hope Street in the centre of Glasgow.

I once asked my dad about the Gourlays. He told me Robert and Rose had 3 sons and that Bob and Rose separated while the boys were still young. After the separation, the boys continued to stay with Robert while Rose went to stay with her father - my greatgrandfather - Hugh Kelly at McNeil Street, Hutchesontown, Gorbals.

I am telling you this on the off chance that you are related to this Gourlay family.

The Scottish surname of Adair originated in Kinhilt, Wigtownshire (West Galloway). As Fink Ployd's link mentions, tradition has it that the 14th century founder of this Wigtonshire family came from a Norman family in Ireland, though this is disputed by Black's Surnames of Scotland. Black says the Adair surname in Scotland predates the 14th century.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/9708/coat.html

Regards,

Paul

Posted by: Fink Ployd 12th May 2008, 11:44am

Do anyone here know how to pronounce the name Ó hAoláin? Its Anglicised form is Hyland.

The other surname whose pronunciation I am struggling with is mac Conghail (McGonigal.)

Help appreciated.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 13th May 2008, 06:10pm

QUOTE (Bernard Donahue @ 26th Mar 2008, 05:42 AM) *
Thanks again for all of the information. Possibly we are distant Kelly cousins; then again, we could be otherwise related - my grandmother was a Brady! I am northwest Irish for sure; my YDNA result is R1b1c7, the Northwest Irish haplogroup - reportedly descendants of Naill of the Nine Hostages through the Donohoes of County Cavan. I'm sure that I'm descended from Naill through other ancestors too - the Gallaghers, the Kanes and the Boyles. Your observation of a link between the Irish and the Highland Scots may be challenged by these DNA results - the R1b1c7 haplogroup is centered in Northwest Ireland, but also in Lowland Scotland. See: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7.


Hi Bernard.

This R1b1c7 (M222) business is fascinating.
As I have mentioned in some of my earlier posts, it is speculated that men with R1b1c7 are direct descendants in the male line of the early 5th century High King of Ireland, Niall of the Nine Hostages.

You say you have R1b1c7 and that your Donohoe ancestors came from County Cavan in south Ulster. I am far from being an expert on DNA, but from what I have read on the internet, the highest concentration of R1b1c7 is in west Ulster (Donegal, Derry, Tyrone). The 2nd highest concentration is in south Ulster (Cavan, Monaghan, South Armagh). The concentration of R1b1c7 is not so high in east and north Ulster, though this is not surprising, given that these parts of Ulster were most affected by the Plantations. At least three quarters of the people in South Antrim, North Down, North Armagh and East Derry are of British (mainly Scottish) Planter extraction. Even west and south Ulster were affected by the Plantations, though to a lesser extent.

From what I have been reading, the 3rd largest concentration of R1b1c7 could be in south west Scotland. In post #26, I said that R1b1c7 was probably brought to Scotland around the start of the 6th century by SOME of the Dalriadic Scoti from the north east of Ireland. The Irish Scoti of course initially settled in southern Argyll (Kintyre, Knapdale, Cowal, Glassary, Arran, Bute, Islay, Jura) but their influence soon spread into northern Argyll (Lorn, Appin, Mull) and later even further afield into Lochaber and then other parts of the Scottish Highlands and eventually the Lowlands, thus giving rise to the nation of Scotland.

I have read on several websites that most of the Dalriadic Scotti probably didn't have R1b1c7. They were said to be descendants of the early 4th century High King of Ireland, Colla Uais. As I mentioned in posts #75 and #76, Colla Uais is often described as the father of Dalriada and it is claimed that many native Irish families from the north east of Ireland and Scottish families from Argyll are his direct descendants. His Y-DNA is R1b......(?)

The region of Galloway in the extreme south west of Scotland has had a very interesting history. The original people of this part of Scotland were not the Picts, but the Britons. The Britons would have spoken Cumbric, a language very similar to Welsh. Galloway was also occupied by Angles (English) in the 7th century, by Gaelic-Norse (Norse-Gaels) in the 10th century and also probably by Irish (but when?). The Scoti from Ulster settled in Argyll, NOT Galloway, around the start of the 6th century. However, it is only a short distance from Ulster to west Galloway (Wigtownhire) so it is likely that small groups of Irish could have made the short trip across the North Channel from Ulster to Galloway at various times, though not on the same scale as the Dalriadic migrations to Argyll. This may be the reason why R1b1c7 shows up among some 'indigenous' Scottish families in the south west of Scotland. Male descendants of these small groups of Irish settlers in Galloway probably migrated into neighbouring Ayrshire and Dumfries over the centuries, taking with them the R1b1c7.

In my opening post of this topic, I said that Gaelic has never really been spoken in the Scottish Lowlands. This of course is not entirely true. A dialect of Scots Gaelic known as Galwegian Gaelic was once spoken in Galloway and South Ayrshire (Carrick). The exact origins of this language are a mystery. Was it introduced into Galloway by Irish settlers from Ulster, the same people who brought R1b1c7 to the area? Or was it introduced into Galloway by Norse-Gaels (forerunners of the Gallowglass) from southern Argyll (Kintyre, Islay and Arran) or the Isle of Man who seem to have settled in the area around the 10th century and after whom Galloway is named (Gall-Gaidhel, the foreign Gaels). There is evidence that Gaelic was being spoken in the Rhinns of Galloway (the extreme western peninsula of Galloway) as early as the 5th century, which would indicate an Irish presence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galwegian_Gaelic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galloway

By the 17th century Galwegian seems to have become extinct. The reason I say this is that many of the 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters in Ulster came from Galloway, Dumfries and Ayrshire, and it is known that these Planters were speaking English (Lallans), at least as their first language.

I guess the other reason why R1b1c7 shows up in the south of Scotland is because of the large numbers of Irish inmmigrants (especially from west Ulster) who settled in Scotland (especially the Glasgow area) in the 19th century. Many of their descendants have since moved into other parts of the Scottish Lowlands, something which I think is often overlooked by people who study Y-chromosome DNA.

Posted by: CAT 14th May 2008, 01:46pm

Hi Paul I am half way through reading the posts on this topic and I,m finding it really interesting.
The things you can do on these boards is amazing. Keep up the good work I'm off to read the rest.

Posted by: ToriG 16th May 2008, 11:42am

Hi Guys,...RonD, Finkployd, Paul Kelly. Thankyou so much for all the research and information, (as mind boggling as it all is-and not to mention everyone's time). Im not much into the research, though you've all given me plenty to go on. Theres some interesting facts to go on as it is. My uncle (Adair) has a coat of arms which has the three red hands on it, did'nt know wether it was the right one or not and thats what got me curious with that name. Once again thankyou. (Well done) biggrin.gif

Paul Kelly, I will talk with my dad and see if he comes up with anything inregards to possible contection with us, not sure if he will know, though I do have an aunt who is big on the family research.......... smile.gif

Posted by: CMcGugan 20th May 2008, 05:36pm

In response to Jim McGoogan's question, I have had my dna tested and turned out to be continental (possibly Danish). My family came from Knapdale. I have set up a site on FamilyTreeDNA.com for the McGugan family, so this may be of interest. Another Irish McGoogan has submitted his dna, so we are waiting for results on that.

Colin McGugan

Posted by: RonD 20th May 2008, 09:18pm

I have a friend whose surname is Stewart adn his dna has him of Viking stock, that could also mean Norman as Fitz Alan ancestors of the Stewarts was.

Posted by: Mike Cahill 30th Jun 2008, 08:39pm

Thanks for the the very detailed notes you have posted, Paul. I found the postings while looking for an origin for my own clan, which I know to be McCahill of County Cavan. My ancestors here in America pronounced it "Cal", not "Ca-hill", like they do now in Ireland, or "Kay-hill" like we have given in to be called here now. I wonder if the "Cal" was because that is how they pronounced it back in Cavan 150 yrs ago, which may also explain why there is also a "McCall" variant of the same name, as you point out.

Anyway, my paternal line DNA does indeed put me in the "Niall of the Nine Hostages" group (R1b1c7), although I understand this does not necessarily mean I am one of this person's direct descendants.

I wonder if you could tell me where you got the info about the name being originally from South Tyrone, so I can look further into that on the net.

Thanks.
Mike Cahill

Posted by: ulsterscot 25th Jul 2008, 12:14am

Hi

Im from Ulster (north ireland) and am very interested in our mutual connections. Ive heard of the Scoti tribe and was wondering if there evidence can find of actual locations in Ulster itself?

I havent a Scottish or Irish surname unfortunately?! well as far as I know its Welsh or English version? DAVIS

My ancestors are probably from the Ulster Plantation or after?

Maybe someone can shed some light If there is any Scottish connection?

Cheers

UlsterScot

Posted by: RonD 25th Jul 2008, 01:32am

Hi Ulster Scot, Davis is also a part of Clan Davidson, which in turn was part of the Clan Cahttan federation. So there's hope for you yet!!!! biggrin.gif

Posted by: Paul Kelly 25th Jul 2008, 09:43am

QUOTE (ulsterscot @ 25th Jul 2008, 02:31 AM) *
Hi

Im from Ulster (north ireland) and am very interested in our mutual connections. Ive heard of the Scoti tribe and was wondering if there evidence can find of actual locations in Ulster itself?

I havent a Scottish or Irish surname unfortunately?! well as far as I know its Welsh or English version? DAVIS

My ancestors are probably from the Ulster Plantation or after?

Maybe someone can shed some light If there is any Scottish connection?

Cheers

UlsterScot


Hi UlsterScot.

My greatgreatgrandmother was Ann Jane Davis from Belfast. She was a Methodist and given that Methodism was/is the national religion in Wales, I think it is likely she was of Welsh and/or English ancestry. While the majority of the Protestant Planters in Ulster were Scots, there was also a significant number of English Planters and also a few Welsh Planters and French Huguenots.

Ann married William Lawson, who was also from Belfast, in 1866, and they raised my greatgrandmother Elizabeth Lawson (born Belfast 1867) as a Methodist. The family seems to have moved to Glasgow around 1875. A significant minority of the 19th century Irish immigrants to Scotland were Protestants, a fact which is sometimes overlooked, probably because they were integrated into Scottish society much more quickly than their Catholic counterparts.

Elizabeth Lawson married my greatgrandfather, Alexander McKenzie, a Presbyterian from Inverness, in Glasgow in 1889. They married in a Methodist church at Berkeley Terrace, Kelvin district, Glasgow.

My grandmother, Sarah Lawson McKenzie, was born in Townhead, Glasgow in 1896. It seems that many members of my grandmother's family were members of the Orange Order and when she married my grandfather, Michael Connolly, an Irish Catholic from County Armagh, in 1923, many members of her family did not speak to her for years. I think her mother, Elizabeth, was particularly bitter, as were some of her 10 siblings. Through time though, they did come to accept it, and my mum remembers visiting her Granny Elizabeth in Townhead on a few occasions as a small girl.

Who knows. Maybe we are related. Did your Davis ancestors come from Belfast?

Posted by: the brauns 25th Jul 2008, 03:32pm

Hello everyone, I have been trying to find the source of my father's name "Mulhinch". I earliest Mulhinch I have located is from Ireland about 1816. My father's branch of the Mulhinch family came to the Glasgow area in 1859 and it seems stayed there ever since. Anyone have any thoughts as to where this name came from? I would appreciate any help I could find.

Posted by: Chanin McCabe 4th Aug 2008, 03:15am

Hi Paul,

I am digging into my family history, my Grandmother was Scottish Protestant, a Dewar (Deoradh) and my Grandfather was Irish Catholic, a McCabe. Interesting mix! I have pretty much done what I needed to do with the Dewar side of my family, and I was reading your posts on the Gallowglas. I know going through the lines of my family and hearing the stories past down that my family is a part of that mercenary history, (which explains the temeperment on that side lol smile.gif ) My Grandfather came from Donegal and emmigranted to Montreal becoming an Acting Piper Major for the Black Watch, and I know as of the late 80's they still had their family house that was being occupied by one of his deceased brothers wife's, (all siblings deceased now as well as my Grandfather), and I have obtained video from a past relative showing the gravestones of my Great Grandfather, his wife and two of my Grandfathers brothers, (unfortunatley I do not know the cemetary they were buried in) and I was just wondering if you have any more information on the McCabe clan, and even a suggestion as to where I might turn to find out more information on them, their activity of the clan in Donegal, where I may find out what cemetary this is, and where that house may have been or still is, as I would love to visit it one day, I know it was around the crossroads of Donegal, Glenties and Ardara, however from what I understand there is alot of McCabes in that area. I apologize for so many questions at once! smile.gif

Thanks so much!!
Chanin McCabe
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Posted by: don 6th Aug 2008, 08:25pm

Paul's rehash of various 'highland' histories is interesting enough but it leaves unanswered many other questions, such as how gaelic placenames are recorded throughout Scotland including thoughout the areas in which Paul makes the bold claim that it has "never" been spoken.

It is also the case that modern scholars have claimed that the Pictish language was not neccesarily monoglot P-celtic as Paul claims but indeed that the Picts contained a mixture of both P & Q celtic speaking tribes.

Indeed it is true that the gaelic spoken in Donegal is different from that spoken in Kerry but why this commentator feels need to reference this fact without also pointing out that the English spoken in Aberdeen is different from the English spoken in Newcastle which again is different from the English spoken in Liverpool is once again unexplained.

It is also untrue to claim that Lowlanders in Scotland have always outnumbered the Highlanders. If you consult Websters mid 18th century studies of the Scotish population you will find that this wasn't the case then , and that is only became definite during the early industrial revolution, which was made possible by the forced Clearances of much of highland scotland, and indeed elsewhere. Given that there were large pockets of Gaelic speaking areas in S-W Scotland until the ealry 19th century again this dismisses the notion that galeic has always been a minority language in the land to which it gave birth.

I would also claim that the difference between highlanders and lowlanders was largely manufactured by medieval scribes in an early attempt to justify the theft of land by the norman robber barons, and later for the same Unionist political reasons that it is my guess Paul is attempting to convey below.

Posted by: RonD 7th Aug 2008, 12:42am

I didn't find explanation of the name Mulhinch, but I do know that the "Mul" element is from the Gaelic maol menaing devotee or servant usually in ference to a Sanit or a religious figure.
So the hinch part probably was a long lost Celtic Saint. I looked up Hinch and there were Mac Anhinch, which translates to son of Angus so possibly Mulhinch means devotee of St. Agnes. There was a Saint Angus who was conssecrated by Saint Patrick.

I found no Mulhinch or Milhinch in Ireland at www.familysearch.org
There wee only two mulhinch in sCotland , probably your family. There were various Millhinch, Millhench etc. in England. Sorry I couldn' find any reference to the origin

Posted by: Paul Kelly 7th Aug 2008, 08:22am

QUOTE (don @ 6th Aug 2008, 10:42 PM) *
Paul's rehash of various 'highland' histories is interesting enough but it leaves unanswered many other questions, such as how gaelic placenames are recorded throughout Scotland including thoughout the areas in which Paul makes the bold claim that it has "never" been spoken.

It is also the case that modern scholars have claimed that the Pictish language was not neccesarily monoglot P-celtic as Paul claims but indeed that the Picts contained a mixture of both P & Q celtic speaking tribes.

Indeed it is true that the gaelic spoken in Donegal is different from that spoken in Kerry but why this commentator feels need to reference this fact without also pointing out that the English spoken in Aberdeen is different from the English spoken in Newcastle which again is different from the English spoken in Liverpool is once again unexplained.

It is also untrue to claim that Lowlanders in Scotland have always outnumbered the Highlanders. If you consult Websters mid 18th century studies of the Scotish population you will find that this wasn't the case then , and that is only became definite during the early industrial revolution, which was made possible by the forced Clearances of much of highland scotland, and indeed elsewhere. Given that there were large pockets of Gaelic speaking areas in S-W Scotland until the ealry 19th century again this dismisses the notion that galeic has always been a minority language in the land to which it gave birth.

I would also claim that the difference between highlanders and lowlanders was largely manufactured by medieval scribes in an early attempt to justify the theft of land by the norman robber barons, and later for the same Unionist political reasons that it is my guess Paul is attempting to convey below.


Hi Don.

I enjoyed reading your criticism of my opening post of this topic. I have of course written many subsequent posts which qualify and modify some of my comments in that post. For example, in post #111, I discuss at length that a form of Scottish Gaelic - called Galwegian - was once spoken in Galloway and south Ayrshire (Carrick).

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=198534

I also discuss possible reasons why Donegal Irish is different from Kerry Irish in post #5 and in subsequent posts. eg Donegal's proximity to Argyll and the fact that several Gallowglass families from Argyll are known to have settled permanently in Donegal in the 14th/15th centuries.

There are many theories concerning the Picts on the internet.

I think it is fair to say that most experts seem to think that the Picts of central and northern Scotland were a P-Celtic people who were related to the P-Celtic Britons of England, Wales and southern Scotland.

One thing is known for sure:

The Q-Celtic Irish monks - such as St Columba - who brought Christianity to Pictland required interpreters when communicating with the Picts.

As for your last paragraph about 'Norman Robbers' and 'Unionism', I could detect a whiff of anti-English Scottish Nationalism.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Scots and the English have much more in common than we are sometimes led to believe.

Posted by: RonD 7th Aug 2008, 09:44am

One other point that lends itself to the Picts being a P-Celtic group are place names. Why does Aberdeen use the prefix "aber" which is the Cyrmric for estuary or mouth of a river, instead of 'inver" which the Q-Celtic Gaelic equivalent. On dialect variations of the same language, these variations can easily be explained. In spite of outside influences on the language which would be the case in Donegal, each region would be isolated, in that travel was limited. The majority of inhabitants of a region over many generations would not have travelled more five miles from where they were born. Thus they would have a dialect that was stylized over the centuries. The dialect could even vary from village to village, since the common would have no reason to travel beyond the area of their birth and consequently have no intercourse with neighbouring communities. We have two examples here in Canada. Quebec where French is spoken though no Oarsian would admit. The majority of the inhabitants of Quebec are descended from people who came from a certain part of Quebec and their fore had a regional dialect when they arrived. This combined with being isolated from the mother country for 300 hundreds has developed Quebecois, quite different from anything in France. The same goes in Newfoundland where the majoirty of the population are descended from people in the west coast of England or Ireland with a few Scots. Again isolated populations that even differed from bay to bay. These bays could only be reached by boat.
So its not difficult where for the very same language to have dialectic difference.

As for robber Normans, I would think their main thrust was for land and whether is was in the Lowlands or th Highlands it was aspired to with prejudice, just so long as it was land, the main currency for warrior nobles, Norman or native alike

Posted by: RonD 7th Aug 2008, 09:46am

One other point that lends itself to the Picts being a P-Celtic group are place names. Why does Aberdeen use the prefix "aber" which is the Cymric for estuary or mouth of a river, instead of 'inver" which the Q-Celtic Gaelic equivalent. On dialect variations of the same language, these variations can easily be explained. In spite of outside influences on the language which would be the case in Donegal, each region would be isolated, in that travel was limited. The majority of inhabitants of a region over many generations would not have travelled more five miles from where they were born. Thus they would have a dialect that was stylized over the centuries. The dialect could even vary from village to village, since the common person would have no reason to travel beyond the area of their birth and consequently have no intercourse with neighbouring communities. We have two examples here in Canada. Quebec where French is spoken though no Parisian would admit it. The majority of the inhabitants of Quebec are descended from people who came from a certain part of Quebec and therefore had a regional dialect when they arrived. This combined with being isolated from the mother country for 300 hundred years has developed Quebecois, quite different from anything in France. The same goes in Newfoundland where the majoirty of the population are descended from people in the west coast of England or Ireland with a few Scots. Again isolated populations that even differed from bay to bay. These bays could only be reached by boat.
So its not difficult where for the very same language to have dialectic difference.

As for robber Normans, I would think their main thrust was for land and whether is was in the Lowlands or th Highlands it was aspired to with prejudice, just so long as it was land, the main currency for warrior nobles, Norman or native alike

Posted by: Don 9th Aug 2008, 04:00pm

Paul I did not realise that there were 9 pages on this topic so please accept my apologies for not reading the other 8 pages before posting my intial reply, and therfore not realising that you had already backtracked from some of your earklier positions.

There are large swathes of Scotland where Pictish tribes are known to have lived and yet there is no topographical evidence of any Pictish influence, one plausible possibility for this is that at least some of the Picts spoke a Q-celtic dialect. There were also Pictish tribes inhabiting parts of, I believe, Antrim and Down. Whether or not this information is available on the internet I do not know. It was a theory I first came across at Glasgow Uni, and which after further study of the matter I have come to accept as more plausible than any other theory put forward.

Posted by: Guest CMcGugan * 19th Aug 2008, 03:59pm

In response to Jim McGoogan, another McGoogan of Irish descent has had his DNA tested and it is a close match to the Knapdale McGugans. We are now trying to get a Gigha or Kintyre family member tested to see if they are also connected. Our DNA is I2b haplotype, which may be Danish in origin.

Posted by: RonD 20th Aug 2008, 12:04am

Don: The Irish Picts were known as Cruthni.

Posted by: mad for trad 22nd Aug 2008, 06:28pm

fascinating stuff Paul my maiden surname is McNeill I know my family originated in Scotland Gigha I think or so I have been told and settled in Ulster but when I dont know I thought they were perhaps plantation settlers because they were protestant but youre article mentioned McNeills who settled earlier, ive been trying for ages to find out what part of Ireland they came from my gtgtgtgrand came back to Scotland Glasgow in fact 1846/49 at the height of the potatoe famine and of course on the census it simply states Ireland as place of birth. I think perhaps im fighting a losing battle.I have really enjoyed youre articles I dont think there is enough written about gallowglass families or plantation families.

Posted by: Hebridean 23rd Aug 2008, 09:16am

I have just stumbled across this blogsite which has much of common interest with my own. Unlike my blogsites which get loads of hits (about 1000 per month), yours has a good lot of traffic as posts or replies.

My visitors mainly hail from North America and Australasia. I am in touch with many of them by email. I am hoping I can get them to start blogging and, as they won't do it on my sites, I have put links on my sites to this one here.

In the meantime, feel free to visit my blogsites at

http://hebridesweb.wordpress.com
http://londonderry.wordpress.com

Posted by: Hebridean 23rd Aug 2008, 09:21am

Moderator

Please add to my previous post

http://westernisles.wordpress.com

Posted by: RonD 23rd Aug 2008, 10:43am

Hi Mad:

Your McNeills settled in Scotland about the same time as my family did. One thing that may hopefully tell you the Irish origins of your family is the 1855 civil registration ( births, marriages, deaths), check all siblings in the family that may ahve died, had birth or married in 1855. It was the first in Scotland for civil registration and consequently had more information on it that subsequent years. My great grandfather was the first to be born in Scotland but his older brother was married in 1855 and it gave where he was born in Ireland, also another brother's wife had a child in 1855 and again it gave the birthplace of the parents. these certs can be had at www.scoltandspeople.gov.uk for a fee.

Posted by: Hebridean 24th Aug 2008, 09:36am

The name McNeill appears in Ireland almost exclusively in the Northern counties, especially in County Antrim. It never appears to have travelled beyond the border, although it does turn up in counties Louth and Roscommon. 'Mad for Trad' could visit the Griffiths Census and there is a link for it under Intermediate Genealogy in my website http://londonderry.wordpress.com

Posted by: stuarty 24th Aug 2008, 03:47pm

I was told by a black guy that the moorish people were black and when ide amin claimed he was king of scotland it was because of the history books he read so the black hills and dartmoor etc was lived in by black people and the young man a was talking to he called his son mac khan as he read the book and mac was son of khan so we learn stuff every day well a do anyway

Posted by: the brauns 24th Aug 2008, 05:09pm

Hello Ron, and everyone else wink.gif I've only just now seen your response to my query about the name "Mulhinch". I thank you for searching for it, as we have hit a "brick wall" in searching for its meaning. The three Mulhinch's in Scotland are indeed our family and I believe there is at least one family in England. The rest of us seem to have moved to the States.

You have given me great information. I have printed it our for my family binder. I really enjoy your posts.

Posted by: Marg Cambridge 31st Aug 2008, 04:44am

Very interesting information Paul.
I am researching CAMBRIDGE from Carrickfergus, Antrim and often wonder if it was originally McCambridge and later the Mc was dropped.

Also, some of my Cambridge were known to be Catholic by the mid 1800's but as they owned property on High Street in Carrickfergus from about 1797 on I suspect they may have originally been Protestant.

What are your thoughts on this? Would a Catholic own valuable property in that period in Antrim?

Marg

Posted by: malachy 31st Aug 2008, 04:55pm

QUOTE (Marg Cambridge @ 31st Aug 2008, 02:48am) *
Very interesting information Paul.
I am researching CAMBRIDGE from Carrickfergus, Antrim and often wonder if it was originally McCambridge and later the Mc was dropped.

Also, some of my Cambridge were known to be Catholic by the mid 1800's but as they owned property on High Street in Carrickfergus from about 1797 on I suspect they may have originally been Protestant.

What are your thoughts on this? Would a Catholic own valuable property in that period in Antrim?

Marg


As I have understood it, the Scots and the Irish are Celts. Is this correct? Malachy

Posted by: malachy 31st Aug 2008, 05:43pm

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 4th Oct 2006, 09:32am) *
Still on the theme of DNA and the Y chromosome, you should try doing a GOOGLE search for

IRISH KING LEFT A WIDE GENETIC TRAIL - GENETIC GENEALOGY

It makes very interesting reading.

So it seems that the Gallaghers are not descended from a 9th century Viking warrior, but are in fact descended from a 5th century Gaelic King of Ireland, Niall of the Nine Hostages.

Many people are in fact descended from this King, especially in the northwest of Ireland - Donegal, Derry and Tyrone.

And, of course, many people in Glasgow are descendants of 19th century Irish immigrants from the northwest of Ireland, particularly County Donegal.


I am new on here Paul and not sure of how to post yet etc. But, your commentaries are very interesting to me. Most of my names happen to be or thought to be on the Irish side, ie, Kavanagh, O'Brien, Boyle, Togher (Toher), except for Field, Summer, and GRAHAM.

My gg grandfather Christopher Graham was born in Co Antrim in 1815, and I have assumed the family was part of the Plantation period. My gfather was known to have said that he was Irish and he'd fight anyone who said he wasn't", but Graham, I am told, is a 99% Scottish name. I am also told the name means in Scottish, "Grey Home".

Your commentary on the soldiers who went from Scotland to Ulster in much early years has me curious; maybe they were there before the Plantation?

I am not even sure where the Grahams were from in Scotland, Highlanders or ?, and believe a Graham was an noted leader with Bruce or ? Lot to learn.

I wasn't sure how to post so you get this; hope this is ok for a start. Malachy

Posted by: Guest Hebridean * 1st Sep 2008, 03:46am

The Grahams may have come over to Northern Ireland as part of the army of Edward Bruce. Edward was younger brother to Robert the Bruce and his reasons for invading Ireland are nicely set out on the Wikipedia page, type Edward Bruce.

The Grahams largely settled in the North East (Antrim and Down) and South West (Tyrone and Fermanagh) corners of Ulster. Those were the parts mainly settled by Scots planters who kept to themselves and minded their own business. There was a large enclave of Grahams in Belfast and its environs, including Lisburn, and there still is to this day. As a border reiver clan, not Highland, therecan be little question that they were Scots in the first instance and later Ulster-Scots or Scotch-Irish.

Posted by: RonD 1st Sep 2008, 11:37am

With most of Ireland being part of the United Kingdom until 1922 many of the native Irish used to Anglicize their names to "get ahead" in society. The Irish name O Grehan was often Anglicized into Graham.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 5th Sep 2008, 05:51pm

I am just back from a 4 week holiday in Scotland and I see there are a few queries and comments in the Family History forum which I will get round to responding to.

While back in Scotland, I spent most of my time down the Ayrshire coast at my parents' place. I enjoyed the sea air given that I spend most of my time in a landlocked country. Not that I am complaining. I love Botswana. I must confess, however, that I only spent 2 days up in Glasgow at my brother's place. I visited the People's Palace at Glasgow Green. Loved it.

I made day trips to the Scottish islands of Arran, Bute and Cumbrae. I have visited Cumbrae and Bute before as a child - I love Loch Fad on Bute - but it was my first time to visit Arran. I travelled around Arran on the bus, stopping at various places, and I was intrigued by Lochranza Castle at the north end of the island. It turns out that the original Lochranza Castle was built by the Sweeneys (MacSweens) in the 13th century. There was a plaque at the sight which indicated that the 3 Argyll castles (Loch Sween in Knapdale, Skipness in Kintyre and Lochranza in Arran) had all been built by the Sweeneys in the 12th and 13th centuries. The Sweeneys must have once been a very powerful family in the Argyll districts of Knapdale, north Kintyre and north Arran. The Sweeneys were of course banished from Scotland by Robert the Bruce in the early 14th century and most of them ended up in County Donegal in Ireland as Gallowglass. As I have mentioned in previous posts, Sweeney is now considered a County Donegal surname and if you have connections with County Donegal then it is highly likely that you have some Sweeney ancestors.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=126518

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=140645

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=161147

Posted by: Paul Kelly 6th Sep 2008, 08:53am

As I mentioned in my post yesterday, I recently visited the Scottish islands of Arran, Bute and Cumbrae.

In my introductory post to this topic, I stated:

"At the start of the 6th century (c500), a Q-Celtic (Goidelic) (Gaelic) tribe from the north of Ireland called the Scoti migrated and settled in what is now roughly modern day Argyll and drove the Picts from the area."

This area of course became known as Scottish Dalriada (later becoming Argyll) and was made up of Kintyre, Knapdale, Islay, Jura, Gigha, Colonsay, Arran, Bute, Cowal, Glassary and Lorn.

While in Bute, I visited the local library and museum. I learned that the original people on the Isles of Arran and Bute were not Picts but were in fact Britons. It seems that the original people of at least southern Argyll (Arran, Bute, Cowal, Kintyre, Knapdale, Islay, Gigha) were Britons and not Picts. The original people of northern Argyll (Lorn) were probably Picts.

As the name suggests, I don't think the Isle of Cumbrae was colonised by the Scoti and remained part of the British Kingdom of Strathclyde and not the Scottish Kingdom of Dalriada.

In my introductory post, I stated that the original people or England, Wales and southern Scotland were the P-Celtic Britons who would have spoken a language called Cumbric which was probably similar to modern day Welsh. The original people of central and northern Scotland were the mysterious Picts (also probably a P-Celtic people). In the east of Scotland, the lands from Fife (inclusive) northwards were under Pictish control. However in the west of Scotland, it seems that Pictish lands started further north. According to my trip to the library and museum in Bute, the lands of southern Argyll (prior to the arrival of the Q-Celtic Scoti), Dunbartonshire and Stirlingshire were controlled by British tribes and not by Picts. Of course the terms 'Britons' and 'Picts' were used to describe a multitude of many smaller tribes and whether an ancient tribe should be classified as Pictish or British is open to question. And of course, many historians are of the opinion that the Britons and the Picts were closely related P-Celtic peoples.

Finally, what is now modern day Argyll is somewhat different from what was historically known as Argyll (Scottish Dalriada). For example, the Isle of Arran is no longer considered part of Argyll. Today it is part of Ayrshire. In addition much of west Dunbartonshire (Loch Lomond and the Rosneath peninsula) is now part of Argyll, although historically this area was never part of the Scottish Kingdom of Dalriada but was part of the British Kingdom of Strathclyde. Historically, Loch Long was the border between Argyll and Dunbartonshire. At its height, the British Kingdom of Strathclyde stretched all the way from Loch Lomond in the north to the English county of Cumbria in the south. Dumbarton was the capital of the ancient Kingdom of Strathclyde. The capital was later moved to Govan in Glasgow because of Viking aggression in Dumbarton. Strathclyde was finally conquered by the 'Scots' in the 11th century, its native British dynasty making way for a brach of Kenneth MacAlpin's house.

One of Scotland's national heroes - William Wallace - was probably descended primarily from the Strathclyde Britons.

Posted by: ToriG 6th Sep 2008, 02:40pm

Hi Paul Kelly, I talked with my dad inregards to you possibly being distant related, and he said he was'nt sure, thats not to say we are though. Maybe when my sister and my aunt finish their research something might appear, who knows eh. smile.gif

Paul inregards to the post:... 11th May 2008, 05:11pm Post #109, I'll get my dad to read it and maybe it will jog his memory again ??? cheers

Posted by: Paul Kelly 7th Sep 2008, 07:39pm

QUOTE (malachy @ 31st Aug 2008, 08:47pm) *
I am new on here Paul and not sure of how to post yet etc. But, your commentaries are very interesting to me. Most of my names happen to be or thought to be on the Irish side, ie, Kavanagh, O'Brien, Boyle, Togher (Toher), except for Field, Summer, and GRAHAM.

My gg grandfather Christopher Graham was born in Co Antrim in 1815, and I have assumed the family was part of the Plantation period. My gfather was known to have said that he was Irish and he'd fight anyone who said he wasn't", but Graham, I am told, is a 99% Scottish name. I am also told the name means in Scottish, "Grey Home".

Your commentary on the soldiers who went from Scotland to Ulster in much early years has me curious; maybe they were there before the Plantation?

I am not even sure where the Grahams were from in Scotland, Highlanders or ?, and believe a Graham was an noted leader with Bruce or ? Lot to learn.

I wasn't sure how to post so you get this; hope this is ok for a start. Malachy


Hi Malachy.

I discussed the Graham surname in post #191 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'.

If you type Graham in the search box where it says 'Enter Keywords' near the bottom of the page of any topic then you will get a list of all the posts in that topic which mention Graham.

Here is a link to the post #191 of the topic CISIS

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6148&view=findpost&p=159450

From what I can see, the Grahams in County Antrim are undoubtedly descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from the Scottish Borders, and as the poster Hebridean mentioned, they would have described themselves as Ulster-Scots or Scots-Irish.

Of course, there probably were a few Catholic Graham families in Antrim as a result of mixed marriages (Protestant-Catholic intermarriages). Mixed marriages, though never that common in Ulster, did happen occasionally.

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/

Posted by: RonD 7th Sep 2008, 10:46pm

Paul your geographic designations for Strathclyde and Argyll would fit nicely into the explanation of a surname such as Galbraith, which originated in that region. Galbraith is Gaelic for "British stranger" So somewhere a Strathclyde British family moved north in to Gaeldom and was so named.

Posted by: Guest Hebridean * 11th Sep 2008, 01:51pm

Galbraith is sometimes written in Gaelic as Mac Giolla Bhreathnach. Giolla is Scots Gaelic for boy, or son, or servant and it finds its way into English in the word gillie. Therefore, Galbraith could mean son of the servant to the Briton (Breathnach being Briton). Breathnach also appears in Irish Gaelic as the surname Brennan which is much more common in Ireland than Galbraith, which is also to be found in pockets in Ireland.

Galbraith is to be found in Argyllshire and is a long-established name on the island of Gigha, off the coast of Kintyre. Another unexpected and older name to be found in Gigha and other Small Islands is the surname Blue, anglicised possibly from the Caelic name, Mac Giolla Ghorm.

All of this is of interest in that these are just two examples which seem to contradict the accepted viewpoint of experts, such as Professor Tom Devine of Edinburgh University, who would have us believe that all of the traffic in internal migration in Scotland was southwards, from the Highlands to the Lowlands. Alternatively, a view is that non-Gaelic names in the Highlands and Islands are merely Anglicised forms of Gaelic names. I'm not so sure that either of these versions is entirely correct but that's another long story.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 11th Sep 2008, 06:45pm

Giolla is Irish Gaelic. Gille is Scots Gaelic. Giolla and Gille mean
'the follower of' or 'the servant of' when used in conjunction with a saint's name. Otherwise Giolla and Gille mean a youth or a lad.

The Gal in Galbraith has nothing to do with Gille or Giolla. The Gal in Galbraith is the same as the Gall in Gallowglass and the Gall in Galloway. The Gaelic word 'Gall' means a foreigner or a stranger.

In Scots Gaelic, Galbraith is written Mac Galle Bhreathnach meaning 'the son of the foreign Briton'. The name was first recorded in Lennox country in Scotland in the 13th century. Lennox country of course referred to Dunbartonshire and west Stirlingshire (the Loch Lomond area) and as I mentioned in post #143, this area was part of the British Kingdom of Strathclyde. The Kingdom of Strathclyde was finally conquered by the Gaelic speaking Scots in the 11th century. These Gaelic speaking Scots were in reality a combination of Scoti and Picts. The Picts were absorbed by the Scoti in the 9th century under Kenneth MacAlpin. How this actually happened is still a bit of a mystery as the Picts heavily outnumbered the Scoti. Probably had a lot to do with the matrilineal succession of the Pictish crown and I think MacAlpin was a Scoti on his father's side and a Pict on his mother's side. (see also post #1 and post #111 of this topic)

http://www.surnamedb.com/surname.aspx?name=Galbraith

Galbraith is a common Scottish Planter surname in County Donegal. In fact there were a number of Scottish Protestant Planter families from Lennox country who settled in County Donegal in the 17th century. eg Galbraith, Buchanan, McClintock, etc (see post #148 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland')

Also, I do not agree with your assessment of the native Irish surname of Brennan.

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname//index.cfm?fuseaction=History&Surname=Brennan&UserID=

Posted by: Paul Kelly 13th Sep 2008, 01:42pm

QUOTE (RonD @ 20th Aug 2008, 03:08am) *
Don: The Irish Picts were known as Cruthni.


Hi Ron.

Cruthin or Cruithni or Cruithne is the Irish Gaelic term for a group of people who resided in Ireland prior to the the arrival of the Q-Celtic Gaels probably around 400 BC.

Cruithni is the Irish Gaelic form of the Greek term Pritani or Pretani (Brittani in Latin). The Preteni are said to have been the first Celtic group to inhabit Britain and Ireland (probably around 600 BC). They were a P-Celtic people and from the word Pritani we get the term Britons.

The Q-Celtic Irish and Dalriadic Scotti also used the term Cruithne to describe the P-Celtic people of Scotland, whether they were Britons or Picts, although it has become more associated with the Picts, as the Britons were seen to be under Roman influence. In fact, prior to the Roman Conquest of Britain, the Q-Celtic Irish referred to all the people of Britain as Cruithni. Ultimately the Q-Celtic Gaels felt the need to distinguish between the Picts and the Romanized Britons and started referring only to the former as Cruithne and the latter as Breatnach. By the time of the Anglo-Saxon conquest of Britain, Breatnach would have referred to the Welsh and the Strathclyde Britons. The Romanised Britons referred to themselves as Prydain/Prydein and to the Picts as Prydyn. Prydein and Prydyn are both derived from the Greek word Pritani.

I have been of the opinion for some time now that the Britons and the Picts were closely related P-Celtic peoples. The main difference between them was that the Britons had been Romanized to a certain extent. The Picts on the other hand had completely resisted the Romans. The term 'Picts' was of course invented by the Romans to describe the Priteni people of northern Britain who remained out of their influence and who continued to paint themselves. The Britons were also known to have painted themselves prior to coming under Roman control.
As Julius Caesar himself wrote in the year 55 BC:

''All the Britons (Brittani) paint themselves with woad, which gives their skin a bluish colour and makes them look very dreadful in battle.''

The term 'Scoti' or 'Scotti' was also invented by the Romans to describe the Q-Celtic Irish.

Posted by: Daniel Macintyre 13th Sep 2008, 02:32pm

Hello Paul Kelly.

Your knowledge is impressive ! I wish I had half of what you have. My knowledge comes from George Fraser Black's ' Surnames of Scotland' smile.gif !!! as well as my own family oral history.

Nae pressure but if you have any time could you tell me what you know of the following:

1. Do you know the origin of the surname McBradney ? My g-g-auntie's name. Is it connected to Bratney? Is it ever shortened to Bradney ? or Bradley Bradney?

2. Another relatives name is Fisher. Their grandparents were from Perthshire - Gaelic speakers. They had a long history in the that area. I thought it would be a coastal name - east coast. Can you explain the Fishers in Perthshire / Stirlingshire / Angus glens?

3. Varley: the name of another relative of mine. Is it connected to Farley? He is a Catholic and has been told that his relatives in the 19th century were from Mayo / Sligo areas . What are your thoughts?

4. Mcildowie - any knowledge about this name?

5. Mac Gille Uidhir - what has this name now been anglicised as ? Am I correct in saying it is a Galloway / Dumfrieshire / Ayrshire name?

6. My own name - Macintyre. My granny always spelt it McIntyre, but my parents spelt it Macintyre. Are we able to understand anything about the different origins of McIntyre vs Macintyre ? Or are they completely interchangable?

7. My other late Granny was called O Hara. Any area in Ireland in which that name is extremely common?

8. Slaven ? Some Dundee relatives of mine. Wheres this name from?

9. Blyth - surname of my girlfriend. Does that name have traveller connections in Dumfrieshire/ Strathnith / Borders?

Sorry I have so many questions. Any wisdom you can share will be hugely appreciated.

Email ----> dubhag " AT" ( @ ) .......... gmail.com

Posted by: Paul Kelly 13th Sep 2008, 06:02pm

In post #142 I was discussing Lochranza Castle on the Isle of Arran. This is a photo I took of my daughter at Lochranza.


 

Posted by: Guest Hebridean * 14th Sep 2008, 12:23pm

I agree with most of the corrections that were made to my last entry. In fact, no sooner had I posted it than I realised I had mixed up Giolla (Gille) with Galle as the prefix for the surname Galbraith. I let it be for the time being, expecting that it would be picked up on by a knowledgeable fellow-poster.

I await a reply on another noticeboard from a Seamus Breathnach whom I know and he is a fluent Irish speaker. As far as I knew he is James Brennan in English, unless I got that wrong as well. His website is worth a visit at http://irishcriminology.com/

Finally, there were comparatively few Galbraiths in Donegal in 1848 (Griffiths Census) and the name was much more common (6-fold) in Tyrone, Derry and Antrim. Buchanan was much more common than Galbraith (again 6-fold) in all three counties. I do agree with Lennox country as being the place of origin and an acquaintance of mine, a Rene Martin from Donegal, has just completed her Masters in Irish Genealogy, taking her subject matter as the history of the Ulster-Scots Buchanans. She is also a very proficient Highland bagpipes player as well, as is common in Donegal and in Ulster generally.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 15th Sep 2008, 06:42pm

QUOTE (Daniel Macintyre @ 13th Sep 2008, 05:36pm) *
Hello Paul Kelly.

Your knowledge is impressive ! I wish I had half of what you have. My knowledge comes from George Fraser Black's ' Surnames of Scotland' smile.gif !!! as well as my own family oral history.

Nae pressure but if you have any time could you tell me what you know of the following:

1. Do you know the origin of the surname McBradney ? My g-g-auntie's name. Is it connected to Bratney? Is it ever shortened to Bradney ? or Bradley Bradney?

2. Another relatives name is Fisher. Their grandparents were from Perthshire - Gaelic speakers. They had a long history in the that area. I thought it would be a coastal name - east coast. Can you explain the Fishers in Perthshire / Stirlingshire / Angus glens?

3. Varley: the name of another relative of mine. Is it connected to Farley? He is a Catholic and has been told that his relatives in the 19th century were from Mayo / Sligo areas . What are your thoughts?

4. Mcildowie - any knowledge about this name?

5. Mac Gille Uidhir - what has this name now been anglicised as ? Am I correct in saying it is a Galloway / Dumfrieshire / Ayrshire name?

6. My own name - Macintyre. My granny always spelt it McIntyre, but my parents spelt it Macintyre. Are we able to understand anything about the different origins of McIntyre vs Macintyre ? Or are they completely interchangable?

7. My other late Granny was called O Hara. Any area in Ireland in which that name is extremely common?

8. Slaven ? Some Dundee relatives of mine. Wheres this name from?

9. Blyth - surname of my girlfriend. Does that name have traveller connections in Dumfrieshire/ Strathnith / Borders?

Sorry I have so many questions. Any wisdom you can share will be hugely appreciated.

Email ----> dubhag " AT" ( @ ) .......... gmail.com


A lot of names there. I have written about some of these surnames before: McIntyre, O'Hara, McClure (Mac Gille Uidhir). If you separately type each of these 3 surnames in the search box near the bottom of the page of this topic and of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland' you will see my discussions of these surnames. There is no difference between McIntyre and MacIntyre. They are completely interchangeable as you have seen in your own family history. Slaven/Slavin is a native Irish surname from west Ulster (Donegal, Derry, Tyrone) and Varley is a native Irish surname from Connacht (Mayo, Galway). McBratney/McBradney (from Galloway) Blyth (from the Scottish Borders) and McIldowie are Scottish surnames. According to the International Genealogical Index, McIldowie was most commonly found in Perthshire. McBratney is quite a common surname in east Ulster (Antrim, Down) as a result of the 17th century Scottish Plantation as are many other Galloway surnames. I understand McBratney means the son of the Strathclyde Briton (Mac Breathnach in Scots Gaelic) and I have been discussing the Strathclyde Britons a lot in my latest posts. According to the IGI, Blyth and Fisher were common surnames in the east coast of Scotland, especially in Angus.

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname

Posted by: Paul Kelly 15th Sep 2008, 07:56pm

QUOTE (Guest Hebridean * @ 14th Sep 2008, 03:27pm) *
I await a reply on another noticeboard from a Seamus Breathnach whom I know and he is a fluent Irish speaker. As far as I knew he is James Brennan in English.


Hi Hebridean.

Seamus Breathnach would be written as James Walsh in English. Walsh is sometimes spelt Welsh in the north and west of Ireland. The name also occasionally appears as Brannagh, Brannick or Brennock. While some bearers of the name are descended from Welsh Britons or just Britons as the name suggests, many others are actually descended from Norman families who came to Ireland from Wales in the 12th and 13th centuries. Walsh is the 4th most common surname in Ireland and is very much considered an Irish surname despite its 'foreign' origins.

As I mentioned before, Brennan or Brannan is a native Irish surname and is not connected to Breatnach.

Paul

Posted by: Guest Hebridean * 15th Sep 2008, 11:59pm

Seamus Breathnach has got back to me and confirms what Paul has said - Breathnach is Walsh in English (as a corruption of Welsh i.e. from Wales) and dates back to the 4th century. Could it possibly be that far back? I would have thought it more likely that the Welsh came over with their leader, Strongbow, who conquered Leinster and married Aoife, daughter of Diarmad McMurrough, King of Ireland. History that far back is not my strong point, however, so Seamus could very well be right.

With regards to the other query, McIntyre is the English translation of Mac an t-Saoir (or son of the carpenter). Being a surname derived from an occupation, it may be that the Irish McIntyres are not traced back to Scotland. Again, I don't know.

Posted by: RonD 16th Sep 2008, 11:11am

Strongbow was a Norman Earl whose holdings happened to be in Pembroke, of modern day Wales, so the majority of his fighting men would have been Norman with Welsh bowmen and infantry.
The native Irish crossed the sea to raid places like Wales along the western seaboard of Britain, Scotland included and slaves were taken back. The reverse was true where Brittonic raiders did the same. There was also trade between the areas also. This happened at least for a thousand years before Strongbow.
Wales, Welsh or Walsh is Anglo Saxon term that means stranger or foriegner which the Welsh were to the Saxons. The term would not only apply to people from the geographic are of modern day Wales but any Brittonic people and they went as far north as Strathclyde as Paul has mentioned. As to descriptions to theirselves by their Irish neighbours would have referred to them as Britons (in Gaelic) or as the Welsh called themselves Cymru or Cymric. After Strongbow and subseqeuntly Henry II had a toehold in Ireland, which is just about the time that surnames were been affixed to the general population the surname Welsh or Walsh would have come into play.

Posted by: RonD 16th Sep 2008, 11:12am

By the way Paul, lovely picture of your daughter at Lochranza!

Posted by: Paul Kelly 23rd Sep 2008, 05:54pm

I have written about the McIntyre surname a few times in the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'. Here are a couple of snapbacks.

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 1st Aug 2007, 12:01pm) *
I have briefly discussed the McIntyre and McAteer surnames before but I would like to say a bit more about them. McIntyre is a Scottish surname originating in Argyll. McAteer is an unrelated native Irish surname originating in Ulster. It is thought that SOME of the native Irish McAteers might be descendants of c15th century Scottish Catholic McIntyre Gallowglasses from Argyll. It is a possibility though no one really knows for sure. One thing that is known for sure is that some Scottish Protestant McIntyres settled in Ulster during the 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster. It seems that some of these Scottish McIntyre Planters adopted the native Irish McAteer surname, particularly in east Ulster (Antrim and Down). Moreover, in the years following the Plantation, it seems that some of the native Irish McAteers in west Ulster (Donegal and Derry) adopted the Scottish Planter surname McIntyre. All very confusing!!! However, it seems that most of the 19th century Irish McAteer immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded correctly as McAteer. Nowadays McAteer is quite a common surname in the Glasgow area due to 19th century Irish immigration. McIntyre is of course a very common surname in Scotland.



QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 7th Dec 2007, 12:28pm) *
Similarly, the Gaelic surname Mac an tSaoir (meaning 'the son of the craftsman') arose independently in Scotland and Ireland. The native Irish version of the surname originated in Ulster where it was usually Anglicised as McAteer. The Scottish version of the surname originated near Loch Etive in Lorn/Lorne, northern Argyll and the surname was Anglicised as McIntyre in Scotland. (It is possible that SOME of the native Irish MacantSaoirs are actually descendants of 14th/15th century Scottish Catholic MacantSaoir Gallowglass settlers from Argyll.) During the 17th century Plantations, many Scottish Protestant MacantSaoirs (McIntyres) settled in Ulster. As a result, the McAteer and McIntyre surnames are both common in Ulster and while it is generally considered that the McAteers are of native Irish stock and the McIntyres of Scottish Planter extraction this is by no means a hard and fast rule. There has been a lot of intermingling of the McAteer and McIntyre surnames in Ulster, which is not surprising given their common Gaelic - Mac an tSaoir - root.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 23rd Sep 2008, 06:26pm

Ron, thanks for your kind comments about the photo.

I also enjoyed reading your historical discussion about the Breathnach - Walsh - surname. I am sure Breatnach first appeared as a surname in Ireland in the 12th/13th century and the surname was mainly associated with Cambro-Norman settlers and ordinary Welsh Britons who had accompanied the Normans to Ireland.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 5th Oct 2008, 07:15am

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 13th Sep 2008, 04:46pm) *
Hi Ron.

Cruthin or Cruithni or Cruithne is the Irish Gaelic term for a group of people who resided in Ireland prior to the the arrival of the Q-Celtic Gaels probably around 400 BC.

Cruithni is the Irish Gaelic form of the Greek term Pritani or Pretani (Brittani in Latin). The Preteni are said to have been the first Celtic group to inhabit Britain and Ireland (probably around 600 BC). They were a P-Celtic people and from the word Pritani we get the term Britons.

The Q-Celtic Irish and Dalriadic Scotti also used the term Cruithne to describe the P-Celtic people of Scotland, whether they were Britons or Picts, although it has become more associated with the Picts, as the Britons were seen to be under Roman influence. In fact, prior to the Roman Conquest of Britain, the Q-Celtic Irish referred to all the people of Britain as Cruithni. Ultimately the Q-Celtic Gaels felt the need to distinguish between the Picts and the Romanized Britons and started referring only to the former as Cruithne and the latter as Breatnach. By the time of the Anglo-Saxon conquest of Britain, Breatnach would have referred to the Welsh and the Strathclyde Britons. The Romanised Britons referred to themselves as Prydain/Prydein and to the Picts as Prydyn. Prydein and Prydyn are both derived from the Greek word Pritani.

I have been of the opinion for some time now that the Britons and the Picts were closely related P-Celtic peoples. The main difference between them was that the Britons had been Romanized to a certain extent. The Picts on the other hand had completely resisted the Romans. The term 'Picts' was of course invented by the Romans to describe the Priteni people of northern Britain who remained out of their influence and who continued to paint themselves. The Britons were also known to have painted themselves prior to coming under Roman control.
As Julius Caesar himself wrote in the year 55 BC:

''All the Britons (Brittani) paint themselves with woad, which gives their skin a bluish colour and makes them look very dreadful in battle.''

The term 'Scoti' or 'Scotti' was also invented by the Romans to describe the Q-Celtic Irish.

In post #149, I said I think it is likely that the Pictish people of Scotland were essentially un-Romanized P-Celtic Britons. The term Cruithni (derived from the Greek word Pritani/Priteni which in turn was probably derived from a similar sounding Brittonic/Brythonic word that the ancient P-Celtic Britons used to describe themselves) was originally used by the Q-Celtic Irish to describe all the P-Celtic peoples of the British Isles (Britain and Ireland). However, after the Roman Conquest of Britain, the term Cruithne was now only used by the Q-Celtic Irish and Dalriadic Scoti to describe the un-Romanised P-Celtic people of the British Isles who essentially at that time were the Pictish people of central and northern Scotland and a few P-Celtic tribes that still existed in the north and east of Ireland. The Q-Celtic Gaels now used the term Breathnach (derived from the Latin word Brittani) to describe the Romanized P-Celtic Britons of England, Wales and southern Scotland, and after the Anglo-Saxon conquest of Britain, the term Breatnach would have referred to the Welsh, the Cornish and the Strathclyde Britons of southwest Scotland

I recently came across the following article on the internet which is putting forward much the same argument as me. The only difference from my argument is that the author claims the P-Celtic Cruthin in Ireland arrived in Ireland from Britain after the arrival of the Q-Celtic Gaels in Ireland (from northwestern Spanish region of Galicia?). However most experts now seem to be of the opinion that the P-Celtic Cruithin arrived in Ireland before the Q-Celtic Gaels. ie P-Celtic Britons have been living in the British Isles longer than Q-Celtic Gaels.

http://www.21stcenturyfogey.com/language/pictish.htm

Posted by: RonD 7th Oct 2008, 12:06am

Pardon my simplistic renderings but I thought I would explain a little of the difference between the P-Celtic and Q-Celtic languages. This may ahve been addressed prior to this post but I'm too lazy to see if it has happened previously. Besides it maybe time reacquanit you with it. Q-Celtic which are Gaelic languages, take in Scottish Gaelic and Manx which were the progeny of Irish Gaelic. One would call them sibling languages where as P-Celtic takes in Cornish, Welsh, Brittanic (from Brittany), Stathclyde Brittonic and possibly the Pictish languages are and were P-Celtic languages and so were sibling languages also. The Q-Celtic and P-Celtic are one time removed and are cousin languages. All Celtic languages belong to the Southern European language group and are cousin in turn to the Italo-Latin group of languages meaning that they have the same linguistic ancestor. Why are they called P and Q to seperate them. It is all a matter of diction. The word for head in Welsh soundfs like 'pen' as Penrose and Pendragon where as in Gaelic the word for head is 'ceann' or in English 'kin' such as Kinloch, Kincardine which shows as a 'q' sound. That is one main diofferences in the two languages. I hope that makes sense.

Posted by: Java 7th Oct 2008, 07:31am

I have to thank you again for taking the time to post here Paul and Ron. It's fascinating stuff. Oh, and a beautiful photo of your wee girl Paul....hope you all enjoyed your trip.

Posted by: angel 7th Oct 2008, 08:24am

tongue.gif I too enjoy your posts : Paul and Ron: thankyou and Paul that is a lovely photo of your young daughter. tongue.gif

Posted by: Paul Kelly 7th Oct 2008, 11:52am

Thanks Angel, Java and Ron.

I finished my last post by saying it seems that P-Celtic peoples (originally from France?) have been staying in the British Isles longer than Q-Celtic peoples (originally from Spain?). Nevertheless, the Q-Celtic tongue is said to be older than the P-Celtic tongue. My understanding is that the Q-Celtic tongue probably arose in continental western Europe: Gaul (France) and Iberia (Spain, Portugal). However, in France, the Q-Celtic tongue developed into the P-Celtic tongue.

Examples of Q-Celtic languages are:

1. Celtiberian (from northern Spain and long extinct)
2. Goidelic/Gaelic (Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic and Manx)


Examples of P-Celtic languages are:

1. Gaulish (from France and long extinct)
2. Brythonic/Brittonic (Welsh, Cornish, Breton, Cumbric and probably Pictish)


Cumbric (the ancient language of England, Wales and southern Scotland) and Pictish (the ancient language of central and northern Scotland) are of course long extinct. The last known speakers of Cumbric were the Strathclyde Britons from south west Scotland and north west England (the area from Loch Lomond down to the River Mersey). Modern Welsh is probably very similar to Cumbric.

See posts #143 and #148.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 7th Oct 2008, 01:44pm

In post #149 (and #160) I quoted Julius Caesar prior to the Roman Conquest of Britain.

Also, according to Caesar, the people of Britain (Britanni) spoke a very similar language to the people of central Gaul. He said there was little difference between the 2 languages. This is not surprising given that Gaulish and Brythonic are both P-Celtic languages and that the Britons probably came to the British Isles from France.

Posted by: CiderMan 24th Oct 2008, 10:45pm

Hi Paul I stumbled upon this by accident, I would just like to say it is very interesting stuff.
My surname is McColl although my granda tells me it should be MacColl but he says my great Granda was pished when he was writing his birth cirtificate and spelt it wrong. He is from a place called Cairnbaan in Argyll but moved to Glasgow when he was young. Cheers for the info

Posted by: Paul Kelly 25th Oct 2008, 08:33am

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=172828

In post #81 of this topic, I gave an updated list of all the Gallowglass families that I have heard of. I recently received correspondence from someone asking if the McKeown or McKeon surname of County Antrim is of Galloglass origin. As far as I am aware it is not.

McKeown/McKeon (Mac Eoghain or MacEoghain) is a native Gaelic Irish surname originating in Connacht Province (Sligo, Leitrim) in the west of Ireland and the surname is also common in the Irish Midlands and south Ulster. There also appears to be an unrelated Catholic McKeown family from County Antrim in north Ulster. Believe it or not, this family is said to be of Norman origin like the McQuillan family of County Antrim (see post #56 of this topic). John Bisset or Bissett was a Scot of Norman origin who was exiled from Scotland to Antrim for his supposed part in the death of the Earl of Athol in the 13th century. His descendants in Antrim used the surname MacEoin or Mac Eoin (son of John) and they heavily intermarried with the native Gaelic Irish and Scottish Gallowglass families of Antrim. It is also known that some McKeowns adopted the surname Owens in the years following the 17th century Plantations.

There are also a number of Protestant McKeown families in Ulster (in and around County Down) and these families are probably descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McEwan Planters from mainly Galloway who adopted the Irish spelling of McKeown. I wrote extensively about the Scottish McEwan/McEwen family of Otter in Argyll in posts #38 and #53. I am not sure if the McEwans of Galloway were connected to the McEwans of Argyll. Similar sounding and sometimes identical Gaelic surnames arose independently in different parts of Scotland and Ireland.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 26th Oct 2008, 07:22am

Mac Giolla Eoin is a relatively rare Irish Gaelic surname from County Fermanagh in south west Ulster and has been Anglicised as McAloon. The surname means the son of the devotee of St John.

Mac Gille Eain is a common Scottish Gaelic surname from the Isle of Mull in northern Argyll and has been Anglicised as McLean. This surname also means the son of the follower of St John. As I mentioned in post #172 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland', a few Catholic McLean Gallowglasses are said to have settled in Ulster in the 15th or early 16th century. However the vast majority of McLeans in Ulster are undoubtedly descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters. The McLean surname is sometimes spelt McClean or even McClane in Ulster.

Mac Eain or MacEain (meaning the son of John) is a relatively rare Scottish Gaelic surname from Argyll and has been Anglicised as McIain or MacIain. Some members of this family settled in Ulster during the 17th century Scottish Protestant Plantations where the surname was further Anglicised as McKean or McKane or McCain. The Scottish Planter surname of McKean/McKane/McCain should not be confused with the native Irish Gaelic surname of O'Cathain which was Anglicised as Kane (O'Kane) in Ulster and as Keane in the south of Ireland. Most of the McKeans in Ulster today are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McIain Planters though it is possible that a few native Gaelic Irish families adopted the McKean surname in the years following the Plantations. (see post #145 and post #197 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland')

Finally Mac Seain or MacSeain is a native Irish Gaelic surname from south Ulster meaning the son of John which was Anglicised as McShane. The original Irish Gaelic for 'John' is 'Eoin' not 'Sean'. However the Irish Gaelic spelling 'Sean' arose as an imitation of the Norman-French 'Jean'. The McShanes were a branch of the O'Neills of County Tyrone.

Finally, the Scottish Planter surname of McKean and the native Irish surname of McShane were both sometimes Anglicised as Johnson or even Johnston or Johnstone in the years following the Plantations in Ulster. Johnson/Johnston/Johnstone was of course a common Scottish Planter surname (from Dumfries) in Ulster.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 26th Oct 2008, 01:44pm

To clarify my last 2 posts where I was discussing the Gaelic names of Eoin (John) and Eoghan (Owen or Ewen):

Mac Eoghain (son of Owen) is an Irish Gaelic surname from north Connacht and south Ulster which has been Anglicised as McKeown or McKeon.

Mac Eoghain (son of Ewen or Ewan) is also a Scottish Gaelic surname from Argyll (and Galloway) which has been Anglicised as McEwen or McEwan. Scottish Protestant Planters with this surname settled in Ulster in the 17th century and many of them adopted the Irish spelling of McKeown/McKeon.

Mac Eoin (son of John) is an Irish Gaelic surname from County Antrim in north Ulster (originating in the 13th century) and was used by the Irish descendants of the exiled Norman-Scot John Bissett. This surname was also Anglicised as McKeown or McKeon.

Mac Eain (son of John) is a Scottish Gaelic surname from Argyll which has been Anglicised as McIain or McIan. Scottish Protestant Planters with this surname settled in Ulster in the 17th century where the surname was further Anglicised as McKean, McKane or McCain.

Posted by: Fintan 8th Nov 2008, 07:34pm

Paul (I used to be FinkPloyd but forgot my password),

I have several questions in mind, and I will appreciate any help you can give me. Firstly, there are many Cambro-Norman and Anglo-Norman surnames in Ireland e.g. Walsh, Fitzgerald and Burke. However, how many people with such names are really likely to be descended from a Norman lord or earl? Is it not more likely that they are descended from Welsh and/or Flemish settlers who were introduced after the Norman invasion?

Secondly, the origins of Gaelic seem to be highly disputed. I have heard theories that Gaelic arrived in prototype form during the Mesolithic era, that the Neolithic Irish were proto-Celts/Gaels and that the Gaels were Indo-European invaders from Galicia who arrived at around 100 BC. Do you have any idea what the most probable theory is? I have heard that there is no evidence for an Iron Age colonisation or even small-scale invasion of Ireland by Indo-European Celts, and that Gaelic is likely to be the indigenous culture. I also wonder whether there is any basis for the claims that the Cruthin lived in Ulster at all, let alone before the Gaels came to Ireland (if, that is, either group were Iron Age invaders.)

Thirdly, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your highly informative posts and hoped that you could help me out with a few surnames in my Ulster-Scottish family. Firstly, there is the name Coulter, which you have already explained. Secondly, there is Noble, which is Anglo-Norman. However, most people with Norman surnames are Roman Catholics and my Ulster-Scottish family are, as far as I know, all Presbyterians. Is it therefore likely that this branch of my family also came during one of the seventeenth century plantations? If they did, would they have been descended from a Norman family anyway? There is also the surname Mark, which I know can be Scottish, English and Irish. The surname McKee is the final surname I know, and a very interesting one. Are the Presbyterian McKees of County Antrim of Old Irish descent (I know a lot of Irish people moved to Scotland e.g. the Dál Riadan Gaels and the gallowglass) or are they likely to be of Pictish or Scottish descent? All my family are from County Antrim, if that at all helps.

Thanks,

Fintan

Posted by: Paul Kelly 9th Nov 2008, 07:56am

Hi Fintan. Nice to hear from you again.

QUOTE (Fintan @ 8th Nov 2008, 09:42pm) *
I have several questions in mind, and I will appreciate any help you can give me. Firstly, there are many Cambro-Norman and Anglo-Norman surnames in Ireland e.g. Walsh, Fitzgerald and Burke. However, how many people with such names are really likely to be descended from a Norman lord or earl? Is it not more likely that they are descended from Welsh and/or Flemish settlers who were introduced after the Norman invasion?


As was mentioned in posts #156 and #159, there are probably several origins for the Walsh surname in Ireland. Some Walshes are undoubtedly of Cambo-Norman ancestry whereas others are probably descended from ordinary Brittonic (Welsh, Cornish and Strathclyde British) peoples who accompanied the Normans to Ireland. As for the other common Norman surnames in Ireland (see posts #56, #57 and #80), these families are said to be primarily descended from powerful Norman warlords who settled in Ireland in the 12th/13th centuries. In ancient times, powerful warlords frequently fathered many children often by many differen women, including native Gaelic Irish women. It is also possible that some native Gaelic Irish families were absorbed into these powerful Norman families or adopted the surnames of these powerful Norman families.

QUOTE
Secondly, the origins of Gaelic seem to be highly disputed. I have heard theories that Gaelic arrived in prototype form during the Mesolithic era, that the Neolithic Irish were proto-Celts/Gaels and that the Gaels were Indo-European invaders from Galicia who arrived at around 100 BC. Do you have any idea what the most probable theory is? I have heard that there is no evidence for an Iron Age colonisation or even small-scale invasion of Ireland by Indo-European Celts, and that Gaelic is likely to be the indigenous culture. I also wonder whether there is any basis for the claims that the Cruthin lived in Ulster at all, let alone before the Gaels came to Ireland (if, that is, either group were Iron Age invaders.)

There are many theories on the internet. In posts #149 #160, #164 and #165 I wrote what I thought sounded the most plausible.


QUOTE
Thirdly, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your highly informative posts and hoped that you could help me out with a few surnames in my Ulster-Scottish family. Firstly, there is the name Coulter, which you have already explained. Secondly, there is Noble, which is Anglo-Norman. However, most people with Norman surnames are Roman Catholics and my Ulster-Scottish family are, as far as I know, all Presbyterians. Is it therefore likely that this branch of my family also came during one of the seventeenth century plantations? If they did, would they have been descended from a Norman family anyway? There is also the surname Mark, which I know can be Scottish, English and Irish.


Families of Norman extraction in Ireland are predominantly Roman Catholic primarily because the 16th century Reformation did not really affect Ireland. In addition, most of the Norman families that settled in Ireland in the 12th/13th centuries adopted Irish Gaelic culture and customs in the subsequent 3 or so centuries, including the Irish language, and they heavily intermarried with native Gaelic Irish families.

However, in England, Wales and Scotland, families of Norman extraction did become Protestant during the 16th century Reformation and some of these families would have ended up in Ireland durind the 17th century Protestant Plantations. From the top of my head, some famous Scottish families of Norman origin are Bruce, Stewart, Fraser, Graham and possibly even Campbell (see post #48).

Noble is an Anglo-Norman surname and has been found in Ireland since the 13th century. In Ireland, the surname is most commonly found in Ulster. The Ulster Nobles are said to be descendants of 17th century Norman Scottish Protestant Planters from Lothian and Borders.

http://irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/

Posted by: Paul Kelly 9th Nov 2008, 08:12am

Hi again Fintan.

Concerning your Presbyterian McKee ancestors from County Antrim, I am sure they are probably descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McKie Planters from Dumfries and Galloway.
I wrote about this surname and similar sounding surnames in post #175 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'.

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 5th Aug 2007, 11:43am) *
The following surnames are all commonly found in Ulster and I have discussed them in previous posts: McHugh/McCue, McCoy/McKay, McKee and McGee/Magee. These surnames are often confused with one another and I would like to clarify a few things.

The McHugh/McCue surname is a native Irish surname originating in west Ulster and is common in County Donegal.

The McCoy/McKay surname is commonly found in east Ulster, particularly County Antrim. Some of the Ulster McCoys/McKays are descendants of 15th century Scottish Catholic McKay Galloglasses from Kintyre and Islay while the other Ulster McCoys/McKays are mainly descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McKay Planters from Kintyre. McCoy is the Irish spelling of the Scottish surname McKay and both forms of the surname are found in Ulster.

The McKee surname is commonly found in east Ulster, particularly Counties Down and Armagh. The Ulster McKees are mainly descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McKie Planters from Dumfries and Galloway. McKee is the Irish spelling of the Scottish surname McKie which originates in Galloway.

The McGee/Magee surname is common in both east and west Ulster. The McGee family of west Ulster (Donegal, Tyrone and Fermanagh) is a native Irish family. The Magees of east Ulster (Antrim and Down) are mainly descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McGhee Planters from Ayrshire and Galloway. McGhee is a Scottish surname originating in Galloway. The McGhee and McKie families of Galloway are said to be related.

Most of the 19th century Irish McCoy and McGee/Magee immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded in the Scottish forms of McKay and McGhee.

There has been some intermingling of all the above surnames because of the many movements of families between Scotland and Ireland.


I think all the above surnames are Mac Aodha or MacAodha in Irish and Scottish Gaelic. This Gaelic surname arose independently in different parts of Ireland and Scotland. The different Anglicisations reflect the different pronunciations in different parts of Ireland and Scotland.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 9th Nov 2008, 09:46am

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 9th Nov 2008, 10:20am) *
I think all the above surnames are Mac Aodha or MacAodha in Irish and Scottish Gaelic. This Gaelic surname arose independently in different parts of Ireland and Scotland. The different Anglicisations reflect the different pronunciations in different parts of Ireland and Scotland.


I have just been checking.

Mac Aodha or MacAodha is the Irish Gaelic spelling of McHugh/McCue.
Mhaoil Ghaoithe is the Irish Gaelic spelling for McGee in west Ulster (Donegal).
Mag Aoidh or MagAoidh is the Irish Gaelic spelling for Magee in east Ulster.
Mac Aoidh or MacAoidh is the Scottish Gaelic spelling of McKay, McKee/McKie and McGhee.

Aodh is the Gaelic word for Fire which has been Anglicised as Hugh.

There is also an Irish Gaelic surname O'h-Aodha.
O'hAodha was Anglicised as Hayes in the south of Ireland and as Hughes in the north of Ireland. Occasionally, the native Gaelic Irish surnames of MacAodha and MagAoidh were also Anglicised as Hughes in the north of Ireland instead of as McHugh or Magee respecticely.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 9th Nov 2008, 12:43pm

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 5th Aug 2007, 11:43am) *
The McGee/Magee surname is common in both east and west Ulster. The McGee family of west Ulster (Donegal, Tyrone and Fermanagh) is a native Irish family. The Magees of east Ulster (Antrim and Down) are mainly descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McGhee Planters from Ayrshire and Galloway. McGhee is a Scottish surname originating in Galloway. The McGhee and McKie families of Galloway are said to be related.



QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 9th Nov 2008, 11:54am) *
Mac Aodha or MacAodha is the Irish Gaelic spelling of McHugh/McCue.
Mhaoil Ghaoithe is the Irish Gaelic spelling for McGee in west Ulster (Donegal).
Mag Aoidh or MagAoidh is the Irish Gaelic spelling for Magee in east Ulster.
Mac Aoidh or MacAoidh is the Scottish Gaelic spelling of McKay, McKee/McKie and McGhee.


As I previously mentioned, most of the Magees in east Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McGhee/McGhie Planters from Ayrshire, Dumfries and Galloway. However some of the Magees in east Ulster belong to the native Irish MagAoidh sept from Islandmagee in County Antrim.

Some of the McGees in west Ulster are also of Scottish Planter extraction. However a majority of the McGees in west Ulster are said to be of native Irish extraction. While some are probably connected to the native Irish Mhaoil Ghaoithe sept of Donegal, most are probably connected to the native Irish MacAodha families of west Ulster (Donegal, Tyrone and Fermanagh) and north Connacht (Sligo, Leitrim, Mayo). The MacAodha surname was Anglicised as McHugh in north Connacht. However in west Ulster the surname was Anglicised as McHugh or McCue or sometimes even McGee.

Posted by: Guest Hebridean * 10th Nov 2008, 03:40pm

It would be interesting to see if someone can unpick Mhaoil Ghaoithe, the Donegal version of the McGee/Magee surname. Maol in Gaelic normally refers to baldness but has a particular significance as the distinctive tonsure worn by followers of St. Columba. Hence, the name MacMillan in the Highlands of Scotland appears as MacMhaolain. Doubly interesting is that the Magees of Donegal are thought to have come from around Kilmacrenan, also thought to be the birthplace of St. Columba.

All of this might be quite fanciful as Maol sometimes, though less commonly, simply refers to a feature of landscape. This might fit in better with Ghaoithe which in Gaelic means of the wind. Therefore Muintear Mhaoil Ghaoithe, the full Gaelic form of Magee, might simply mean those ones from the exposed windy place!

Posted by: Fintan 14th Nov 2008, 05:21pm

Thank you very much.

There are three other surnames, two of which which I am fairly certain you will not be able to help me with, but I may as well ask anyway. One surname in my West Cork family is Howrehen, which seems ridiculously obscure, and another is Buttimere. I do not know if Buttimere is a corruption of the English Buttermere, which would indicate English planter family, or if it is an obscure Gaelic or Anglo-Norman surname. Howrehen comes up with one result on google and may well be a bizarre, one-off name in my family, or possibly a misspelling of Howren.

I also have Hurley family from West Cork. They came from Ballinacarriga, near Dunmanway, a few miles west of Bandon. I visited Cork recently, and there was a castle in Ballinaccariga that was associated with the Hurleys. Any information you have on this surname (I know very little of the Hurleys besides the original Gaelic spelling of the name) would again be greatly appreciated.

Regards (and yet more thanks),

Fintan.

Posted by: Fintan 16th Nov 2008, 09:47pm

I was also wondering whether or not you would be able to help me with the etymology of some of the surnames in my Scottish family.

Finlayson - I believe this to be an Anglicisation of the Gaelic MacFionnlaigh, a name given to those of Norse descent. However, does this actually mean that there is a Norse ancestry here?

Robertson - no idea. Supposedly derived from some earl or other (but aren't they all?!)

Gillander/Gillanders - no idea.

These families are, as far as I know, all from Aberdeen city and Kincardineshire, which is the county just south of Aberdeenshire.

No doubt you are inundated with requests such as these, but any help would be appreciated. The name that intrigues me the most is Finlayson, as I am wondering whether it simply would have referred to someone with fair hair or someone who was actually of Norse Viking stock.

Posted by: Gerry McGlone 18th Nov 2008, 09:41am

Just stumbled upon your thread and found it fascinating, I haven't had time to go through all the posts yet but am intrested in finding out a little more about both my own surname and my mothers maiden name which is " Boylan"

Posted by: Paul Kelly 30th Nov 2008, 03:07pm

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 26th Oct 2008, 09:30am) *
Mac Giolla Eoin is a relatively rare Irish Gaelic surname from County Fermanagh in south west Ulster and has been Anglicised as McAloon. The surname means the son of the devotee of St John.



QUOTE (Gerry McGlone @ 18th Nov 2008, 11:49am) *
Just stumbled upon your thread and found it fascinating, I haven't had time to go through all the posts yet but am intrested in finding out a little more about both my own surname and my mothers maiden name which is " Boylan"


Hi Gerry.

I think McGlone is an alternative Anglicisation of the the native Gaelic Irish Mac Giolla Eoin surname which I discussed in post #168. I think McAloon or McAloone was the usual Anglicisation in County Fermanagh in south west Ulster whereas McGlone was the usual Anglicisation in south Ulster (Tyrone, Monaghan, Armagh) and McGloin was the usual Anglicisation in north Connacht (Sligo, Leitrim).

McGlynn is a common surname in County Donegal in west Ulster. The Irish Gaelic for McGlynn is Mag Fhloinn, and since this surname was more associated with Counties Galway and Roscommon in south Connacht, I think it is likely that some of the McGlynns in Donegal are really McGloins. However, some of the Donegal McGlynns are said to have originated in County Galway.

http://www.mcglynnfamily.co.uk/page13.htm

Boylan (O'Baoigheallain in Irish Gaelic) is a south Ulster surname associated with Counties Monaghan and Cavan. It shouldn't be confused with the Boyle (O'Baoighill) surname which is strongly associated with County Donegal in west Ulster.

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/

Posted by: Fifer 10th Dec 2008, 01:14pm

QUOTE (rdem @ 8th Sep 2006, 02:22pm) *
That makes sense Paul. Another Gaelic "Stranger ' in Scotland is Galbraith which means British foreigner. By British they mean Brittonic as the Strathclyde Britons who were akin to the welsh.
Also plain foreigner or stranger is covered in Gaelic by such surnames as Gall and Gault.



Hi

I am a Gault from Fife and orginally Ulster, always thought the Gault or Galt name was of French Huguenot origins. Believe they moved from France to Ayrshire and Ulster around the 1500's.
There are not many of us in Fife but still a great amount left in Ulster. Anybody able to throw any more light on this one ???

Posted by: Paul Kelly 19th Dec 2008, 06:54am

QUOTE (Fifer @ 10th Dec 2008, 03:13pm) *
Hi

I am a Gault from Fife and orginally Ulster, always thought the Gault or Galt name was of French Huguenot origins. Believe they moved from France to Ayrshire and Ulster around the 1500's.
There are not many of us in Fife but still a great amount left in Ulster. Anybody able to throw any more light on this one ???


Hi Fifer.

I could only find one website that indicates that the Gaults of Ayrshire are of French Huguenot (French Protestant) extraction.

http://wham.org/TomWhamHistory.htm

Gault is a surname associated with Ayrshire and the surname is also common in Ulster as a result of the 17th century Scottish Protestant Plantations.

There is a Gault surname in England. However the Gault surname in Scotland is said to be of different origins. As RonD (rdem) mentioned in posts #8 and #146, the Gault surname in Scotland is said to be similar to the Galbraith surname, and indicated someone who was 'foreign' in the eyes of the Gaelic-speaking 'Scots'. See post #148 of this topic. What was making the Gaults foreign in the eyes of the 'Scots' I am not sure. They might have been of Brittonic, Anglo-Saxon or Norman extraction.

While most of the Gaults in Ulster are of Scottish Protestant Planter extraction, it seems that some of the Gaults in Ulster are of 'native' Irish extraction. The relatively rare Irish Gaelic surname of Gallda (meaning a foreigner or a stranger) was also Anglicised as Gault and this surname was similar to the Breathnach (Walsh) surname, although nowhere near as common. See posts #154, #156, #159 and #171. The Gallda surname in Ireland predates the 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster and probably first appeared in the wake of Norman settlements in Ireland in the 12th/13th centuries. See posts #56, #57 and #80. Having said all that, I am sure most of the Gaults in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters.

http://www.surnamedb.com/surname.aspx?name=Gault

Posted by: A McGugan 23rd Dec 2008, 04:56am

Hi, just want to say, the information here is fascinating. One bit in particular interested me - the talkings with James McGoogan. My surname is McGugan, living in Canada. I'm told that my family came over from Scotland, from the area near Inverness, sometime in the 1700s, but little else.

What interested me the most was James' comment about his family being chased out for cattle rustling. One of my Dad's stories is about my great grandfather, who, after fighting in the first world war, decided to take a trip through Scotland before coming home. When he told one of the tour guides his last name, the response he got was a bunch of curses about those *#!@ #^!% cattle stealing Campbells. I thought how the two stories seem to coincide was fairly amusing.

Just out of curiousity though, would you know anything about the Campbell connection there Paul? I've researched, and I could never find a connection between my family and the Campbells, although I was always told there was one there. Most of that I've found seem to connect me to the McNeills around Kintyre.

Thanks.

Posted by: Guest 11th Jan 2009, 02:33am

Have you tried narrowing down the area of search for the McGugan/Campbell conection to the Rothiemurchus/Kingussie/Aviemore locality as it seems to be common to both names and it is just south of Inverness? McGugan is thought to be a variant of McGuigan which is a Northern Irish name peculiar to mid/South County Tyrone. As far as cattle rustling, I would have thought that most of the minor clans in Scotland would ahve been accused of this offence. My own clan was so particularly prone to castle rustling that the moon was popularly referred to as 'MacFarlanes' Lantern'.

Posted by: RonanL 27th Jan 2009, 04:35pm

Hi Paul, hi all,

Firstly, great thread. I've learnt so much reading through it.

Paul, in one of your posts from Oct '07, you mention that several Gallowglass families, including McSorleys, the one I'm interested in, were descended from Niall of the Nine Hostages. Is this a direct patrilineal descent? If Somerled's DNA suggests that he was actually of Norse, rather than Irish, extract, does this put the kibosh on that theory? (I guess the simplest way for me to double-check is to get my McSorley male cousin to have his DNA tested...)
Regardless of the DNA, in terms of the historiography, where could I find the recorded ancestry from Niall through Somerled on to the families of Islay and Kintyre?

One other thing - related - the article you mention at the end by Sellar is no longer online. Was there an original source? Does anyone have a copy of this article on their hard drive? I'd be very interested in a copy?

Thanks,

Ronan.

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 3rd Oct 2007, 06:12pm) *
On a different matter, in post #38, I wrote about 6 families from Cowal, Glassary and Knapdale in southern Argyll that are all supposed to be direct descendants of the legendary 4th/5th century High King of Ireland, Niall of the Nine Hostages - Lamont, McLachlan, Sweeney (McSweeney), McNeill, McEwen and McSorley. ... The following article by W D H Sellar gives a fuller discussion of these 6 families plus a few others.
http://members.aol.com/Lochlan6/sellar.htm


Posted by: Paul Kelly 13th Feb 2009, 12:09pm

Hi Ronan.

I have written a lot about the McSorley surname in various posts on this topic. There is a Search box near the bottom of this page and if you type McSorley then McSorleys and do 2 separate searches you will find all the posts which mention McSorley and McSorleys. There is also a Search facility at the top of the page.

Ronan, you are mixing up 2 different McSorley families: the McSorleys of Kintyre and Islay in Argyll who were said to be descendants of Somerled and the McSorleys of Glassary and Cowal in Argyll who were said to be descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages. The McSorleys of Kintyre and Islay migrated en masse as Gallowglasses to County Tyrone in the 14th century. The McSorleys of Glassary and Cowal were absorbed by the large and dominant Lamont family of Cowal (in the 16th century I think) and became extinct. Here are relevant extracts from some of my previous posts.

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 11th Jun 2007, 12:12pm) *
When I started researching Galloglass families, the initial impression I got was that they originated in the Western Isles (Outer Hebrides and northern Inner Hebrides). However, I now know that this is certainly NOT the case. They all seem to have come from southern Argyll (Kintyre, Knapdale, Glassary and Cowal) and the surrounding islands of the southern Inner Hebrides (Islay, Jura, Colonsay, Gigha, Arran and Bute). In particular, I have been trying to locate the origins of those Galloglass families who relocated to Ireland en masse and whose surnames appear to have died out in Scotland. (ie Sweeney, McCabe, Coll, Sheehy, McGreal, McSorley, McRory, McCallion, McGirr)

In post #30, I mentioned that the Sweeney Gallowglasses originted in Knapdale, north Kintyre and migrated en masse to Donegal in the 14th century. Similarly, the McCabe Galloglasses originated in the Isle of Arran and southern Kintyre and migrated en masse to Cavan/Monaghan in the 14th century. The Coll Gallowglasses originated in Glassary and Colonsay and the McGreal Galloglasses originated in Gigha. The McSorley Galloglasses were a sept of the McDonalds (of Kintyre and Islay) and originated in Islay. They migrated en masse to County Tyrone in the 14th century. However, the McSorley surname did not die out immediately in Scotland because there were still 2 other McSorley families remaining in Scotland who were NOT related to the Galloglass McSorleys of clan McDonald. These were the McSorleys of Glassary and Cowall in Argyll and the McSorlies of Lochaber near Fort William. However, by the 16th century the McSorley surname does appear to have died out in Scotland as the Glassary and Cowal McSorleys adopted the surname Lamont (who were the dominant clan in Cowal) and the Lochaber McSorlies adopted the surname Cameron (who were the dominant clan in Lochaber). (Most Lamonts and Camerons are not descended from these McSorley families but a significant minority of them are.)

Most, if not all of the people in Scotland today with the Gallowglass surnames Sweeney, McCabe, McGirr, McGreal, McSorley, McCallion, McCrory, Sheehy and Coll are descendants of 19th century Catholic Irish immigrants.



QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 12th Jun 2007, 04:04pm) *
In the early 11th cenury the King of the northwest of Ireland (the King of Aileach) was Aodh (Hugh) Athlaman Ua Neill. King Aodh Athlaman was a direct descendant of the 4th/5th century High King of Ireland, Niall of the Nine Hostages. The OLDER son of Athlaman is said to be the direct ancestor of the modern O'Neill family of Ulster, and a close cousin of Athlaman is said to be the direct ancestor of the McLaughlin family of Donegal. King Athlaman died in 1033. The YOUNGER son of Athlaman - Prince Aodh Anrathan Ui Neill - moved to Argyll in 1038 where he married the daughter of one of the chiefs in southern Argyll (Cowal, Glassary and Knapdale). Prince Aodh Anrothan had many sons and the following Argyll clans are said to be his direct descendants: the Lamonts of Cowal, the McLachlans of Cowal and Glassary, the McSorleys of Glassary and Cowal, the McEwens of Cowal and Knapdale, the McSweeneys of Knapdale and the McNeills of Knapdale and Gigha.
(Lamont, McLachlan, McSorley, McEwen, McSweeney, McNeill)

The McSweeneys would eventually return to the northwest of Ireland in the 14th century as Galloglasses and the McSorleys of Cowal would eventually adopt the surname of their larger neighbours in Cowal - the Lamonts - as I mentioned in my previous post. In addition the McEwens of Cowall and Knapdale would eventually adopt the surnames of their larger neighbours - the McLachlans and the Campbells - while those that retained the McEwen/McEwan surname moved to other parts of the Scottish Highlands (and Lowlands). Finally, SOME of the McNeills of Knapdale and Gigha settled in the north east of Ireland as Galloglasses in the 15th century, and according to recent DNA evidence it now seems that the MCNEILL family of Knapdale, Gigha (and Colonsay) in Argyll is not related to the MCNEIL family of Barra in the Outer Hebrides as had been previously assumed.

If these clan histories are true then you would expext many modern Scotsmen with the surnames Lamont, McLachlan (and McNeill) to have an Irish Y-chromosome. In fact, you would expect them to have the Niall Y-chromosome as they should be direct descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages.



QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 3rd Oct 2007, 08:12pm) *
In post #38, I wrote about 6 families from Cowal, Glassary and Knapdale in southern Argyll that are all supposed to be direct descendants of the legendary 4th/5th century High King of Ireland, Niall of the Nine Hostages - Lamont, McLachlan, Sweeney (McSweeney), McNeill, McEwen and McSorley. The McSweeneys of Knapdale and the McNeills of Knapdale and Gigha were of course also Galloglass families. The entire McSweeney family moved to County Donegal as Gallowglasses in the 14th century and some of the McNeill family moved to County Antrim as Galloglasses in the 15th century. However, the McSorleys of Monydrain (just north of Lochgilphead) in Glassary/Cowall were NOT a Galloglass family. They should not be confused with the Galloglass McSorleys of Kintyre and Islay (sept of clan McDonald of Kintyre and Islay) that I wrote about in post #35. The McSorleys of Monydrain in Glassary/Cowal and the McEwens of Otter in Cowal are now both extinct (see post #38). The following article by W D H Sellar gives a fuller discussion of these 6 families plus a few others.

http://members.aol.com/Lochlan6/sellar.htm



QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 5th Oct 2007, 12:53pm) *
The McCabes are a Gallowglass family from the Isle of Arran who moved en masse to Counties Cavan, Monaghan and Fermanagh in the 14th century. It is sometimes alleged that the McCabes are related to the McLeods. I am very sceptical of this. The McLeods are associated with the far north west of Scotland (Lewis, Harris, Skye), a million miles from the Isle of Arran in southern Argyll. In addition, as Andrew McKerral mentions in his 2 articles (see my previous post), many of the McCabe Galloglasses used the forenames Ailin (Alan) and Somhairle (Sorley or Somerled) which would suggest that they were descendants of Somerled. The McLeods are NOT descendants of Somerled. Many of the Galloglass families that settled in Ireland were direct descendants of Somerled - McDonnell (McDonald), McDowell (McDougall), McAllister (McAlister), McCrory (McRory), McSorley (Mac Somhairle), Coll (Mac Colla), Sheehy (McSheehy) and possibly one or two others (see my earlier posts on Gallowglass). I think it is likely that the McCabes were related to the MacDonalds of Kintyre and Islay and not to the MacLeods.

In posts #46 and #47, I was also questioning the conventional wisdom that the McCallion (MacAilin) Galloglasses were related to the Campbells of Loch Awe. The Campbells are NOT descendants of Somerled (post #48). Ailin MacSomhairle (Alan McSorley) was a grandson of the legendary Somerled. So the Ailin (Alan) name was associated with the descendants of Somerled, as well as with the Campbell clan. In fact, Cailean, not Ailin, is the name associated with the Campbell clan, which has been Anglicised as Colin, not Alan. I still think there is a possibility that the McCallion (MacAilin) Gallowglasses were related to the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay and not to the Campbells of mid Argyll.



QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 6th Jan 2008, 09:58am) *
The McSorleys were a family from Kintyre and Islay (sept of the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay) in southern Argyll who moved en masse to County Tyrone as Gallowglasses in the 14th century. Here, they quickly intermarried with the local native Irish families of County Tyrone such as the Kellys and were assimilated into Ulster Gaelic culture (see post #35). I have discussed the McSorleys in many posts of this topic (#5, #24, #35, #38, #41, #53, #55, #81 and #83). I remember reading an article sometime ago about the McSorleys of County Tyrone in which it was claimed that SOME of the McSorleys of Tyrone are probably of native Irish extraction. While McSorley Galloglasses undoubtedly settled in Tyrone in the 14th century, it also seems likely that a few native Irish people also adopted the McSorley surname such was their admiration for the Gallowglass family. I think this might have been true for all the Galloglass families that settled in Ireland/Ulster. The Gallowglass were admired by the native Irish for their fighting prowess. There is a yellow rectangular box near the bottom of this page with the words Enter Keywords written in it. If you type McSorley and then press Search Topic you will get all the posts that mention McSorley. You should then repeat the search with the word McSorleys as post #38 will not show up in the 1st search. Somerled is another keyword you can try.

Posted by: brian quinn 22nd Feb 2009, 07:38am

Hello

Just adding that the agnews also went also to Antrim with the plantagenets to Larne and run back home to Scotland when the climate dteriorated and the locals stayed put. Now I reckonm that some norman agnews may well have been called o'gnive by the local scribes it sounds the same...but on the other hand the agnews that landed back in Wigtown well maybe they were o'gnimh to give them their irish spelling and changed to ASgnew then went back to ireland as planters later on with a pseudo norman name



anyway who knows I cre coz my mother is an agnew and family story came over with covenanters then took up land as planters but already had had land there leased from MacDonnell anyway



and another gallowglass my great granny was a Gallogy who came form a townland called Carrickgallogly...whenthe gallowglasses were hored by an irish chieftain...maybe coz they had horses and were cavalry? they were given a townland area to feed themselves...well rob their tenant farmers of milk and meat anyhow so maybe thats the origin of the townland name and the surname


quinny

Posted by: Paul Kelly 2nd Mar 2009, 05:54pm

Hi Quinny.

I enjoyed reading your comments. I am sure you must have read my post about the Agnew surname earlier in the thread which prompted you to post.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=163097

In the earlier post I said Agnew is a Scottish surname originating in West Galloway (Wigtownshire) and that the Agnews of Galloway are said to be of Norman origin. Brian, you are right to say that the Norman Agnew family originally settled in County Antrim (Larne) in the 12th/13th century during the Norman Invasion of Ireland. They then relocated to Wigtownshire (West Galloway) in the 14th century well before the 16th century Scottish Reformation. Protestant Agnews from Galloway returned to Ulster during the 17th century Scottish Plantations.

The native Irish (or possibly Gallowglass) O'Gnimh or O'Gnive family were hereditary bards to the O'Neill chieftains in Ulster and members of this family are known to have Anglicised their surname as Agnew in the years following the Plantations.

Your comments about the Normans settling in east Ulster reminded me of a post which I had made some time back in this thread about R1b1c7 (now referred to as R1b1b2e) Y-chromosome DNA.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=198534

In the post I said the largest concentration of R1b1b2e is found in west Ulster followed by south Ulster. I mentioned that the 3rd largest concentration is probably found in south west Scotland (Galloway, south Ayrshire). I was trying to come up for with possible reasons for R1b1c7 showing up among some 'indigenous' Scottish families in south west Scotland. I was recently reading that when the Normans invaded east Ulster (Antrim and Down) in the late 12th century, some native Gaelic Irish famies fled east Ulster and settled in Scotland. Some fled north and settled in Argyll while others fled east and settled in Galloway and south Ayrshire. This might explain why R1b1b2e can be found in some 'native' Scottish families from Galloway and Ayrshire.

As I mentioned before in post #76 of this topic, Mac an Ghalloglaigh (MacGallogly) is a Gallowglass surname - meaning son of the Galloglass - and was originally found in County Donegal. The surname must have been used by descendants of some of the Scottish Gallowglasses from southern Argyll who settled in Donegal in the 14th century. The surname can still be found in Ulster and north Connacht in the Anglicised forms of Gallogly, Gollogly, Gillogly or English (for some inexplicable reason). Although no longer found in County Donegal, the Gallogly/Gollogly/Gillogly surname can still be found in the neighbouring counties of Fermanagh, Tyrone, Armagh and Leitrim. It is possible that members of the Mac an Galloglaigh (McGallogly) family in Donegal were absorbed by the large native Gaelic Irish Gallagher (O'Gallchobhair) family of Donegal. The Gallaghers are said to be direct descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages and Gallagher is the most common surname in County Donegal.

Posted by: Iain Mac Gille Andrias 23rd Mar 2009, 01:50pm

Hi there,

Just had a look at the opening post in this thread and although it contains much I'm afraid to say that key parts of it are wide of the mark in regards to the history of Scotland.

Firstly it is in inaccurate to state that 'Gaelic has never been spoken by the majority of people in Scotland'. Studies of the place names show that the Gaelic was wide spread and given that Scotland was founded as a 'Gaelic state' (the Scots where Gaels who gave our country its name) in reponse to the threat of the Angles / Saxons to the south it can be concluded that Gaelic was the language of the state and thus of the majority.

The decline of Gaelic in Scotland is fundementally tied into the development of the concept of Highland and Lowland that did not start until later 15th century. This is where the reference to Highland Scots as 'Wild Irish' comes from, it has nothing to do with the fact that people are somehow different. To say the lowland Scots had more in common with large parts of Northern England is also false. These people were historic enemies and this can be seen in the fact that the vesion of English they started using they called 'Scots'. The use of this term was also a political statement by those in Scotland in regard to the ownership of the terms 'Scots'. At the end of the day 'Scots' in whatever form is just English, the language of Scotland is Gaidhlig.

As regards the Gaidhlig language itself, it is false to say that Scots Gaelic evolved from a merger between Old Irish and the Pictish language. Current thinking suggests that the Pictish language was smiliar to 'Welsh' and this language fell into disuse following the meger of Dalriada and Alba. Modern Scots Gaelic and Irish Gealic are dialects of the same language.

Any differences in the languages today is primarily due to their enforced seperation. This is due to two key points:

1. Plantation of Ulster broke the bridge across the north channel thus seperating the two Gaelteachd. In fact this was a key driver behind this event.
2. Those who frequently moved bewteen the two Gaelteachd with high ranking members of society, chief, bards etc and they actually spoke another form of Gaelic called 'Classical Gaelic'

The use of Mac in front of names was a Gaelic tradition but one that developed in the early medieval period. Pre this the names were of the O form. For example the founders of my clan originally held the name O'Beolain. It has been suggested that if the cutluture had been allowed to develop properly in Ireland without English interference then all O names would gradually have been replaced with Mac names. Interestingly before Culloden and the final breakdown in Scotland the Mac names were changing. The leaders of Clan Domhnall (MacDonald) were starting to use the prefix Mhic and it seems likely that this would have developed further. The reason for this is believed to related to how clan leaders saw themselves in relation to the people of the clan.

Thanks,
Iain

Posted by: Drew1952 24th Mar 2009, 12:34pm

It's all grand is it not. laugh.gif

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 24th Mar 2009, 01:28pm

Fascinating stuff from start to finish.
Paul and Co. deserve a great round of thanks for this extremely interesting thread and the work they do to make GG such an addictive site.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 24th Mar 2009, 05:06pm

QUOTE (Iain Mac Gille Andrias @ 23rd Mar 2009, 03:37pm) *
Hi there,

Just had a look at the opening post in this thread and although it contains much I'm afraid to say that key parts of it are wide of the mark in regards to the history of Scotland.


Hi Iain.

I am fascinated by Irish and Scottish history. I am particularly interested in the influence of the Scottish Gallowglass settlements in Ulster, an event which happened in pre-Plantation times. I have read and learned a lot since making my introductory post in this thread. You are not the first person to criticise my opening post, though I don't think it is as bad as you make out.

Here is a previous criticism of my introductory post and my reply.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=206631

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=206683

As I said to Don, I have written many subsequent posts which qualify and modify some of the points I made in my earlier posts. For example, in post #111, I discuss at length that a form of Scottish Gaelic - called Galwegian - was once spoken in Galloway and south Ayrshire (Carrick).

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=198534

I made a further comment on post #111 in post #187 above.

Iain, I enjoyed reading the points in your post - some of which are speculative - and I agree that Scots Gaelic was probably influenced very little by the Pictish language. However, it is undoubtedly the case that the Picts of central and northern Scotland together with the Romanized Britons of southern Scotland heavily outnumbered the Gaelic Scoti of Dalriada. The complete demise of the Pictish and British (Cumbric) languages in Scotland is a mystery. In addition, we shouldn't forget the large settlements of Angles in southern Scotland and Vikings in the northern and westen coastal regions and the later Norman and Flemish settlements in primarily southern and eastern Scotland.

As regards Irish and Scottish Gaelic, there were many different dialects. Even within the single county in northwest Ireland - County Donegal - there were 2 distinct dialects of Irish Gaelic. The Irish Gaelic spoken in east Donegal (including Inishowen) was different from the dialect spoken in west Donegal. What you describe as 'Classical Gaelic' sounds very theoretical.

If you find the time you could read through some of my other posts. eg

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=209906

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=210724

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=210925

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=213431

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=213567

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=213574

I welcome any more comments, suggestions and criticisms.

Paul

Posted by: Iain Mac Gille Andrias 25th Mar 2009, 11:37am

Hi Paul,

Apologies if I came across as overly critical that was not my intention, your thread contains so much and is very interesting. I am not suggesting it was in any way bad, I was just hoping that I could add a slightly different viewpoint and provide some clarification, even if it is the case that some of it is speculative.

I too find the topic of Gallowglass very interesting and in particular the expolits of Alasdair Mac Colla.

Here are a list of Scots Gaelic sources that might be off use in your continued research:

1. Red book of Clanranald, Niall MacMhuirich - Gaelic history of the Macdonalds
2. Black book of Clanranald, Beaton(?) - Addition / retake of 1 with lots information related to Antrim (thinking is author was closely tied to Earl of Antrim)
3. A Description of the Western Isles of Scotland, Martin Martin
4. Book of the Dean of Lismore (Leabhar Deathan Lios Mòir)
5. Statutes of Iona

Just a comment on progenitor stories as these are facinating items. It might be obvious but people should remember that these can not be taken literally, it was often the case that they were altered to suit the poliitcal situation of the day. For example the Clan Campbell have over time has three different stories, a Gaelic story, a Norman French story and a British story. These were developed in line with their politics. The Gaelic story is the root and is tied in with their place in foundation of the Scottish state. The French Norman story developed in the later medieval period as the prestige of Norman France grew and also with their increased influence in the Scottish court (this can also be seen in Ireland with the 'Fitz' type names). The British story, playing on the idea of the Welsh Britons in Strathclyde, came around the time of the Union of Crowns and the foundation of the British state where the Campbells aligned themselves with the crown in their on going internal struggle with the Clan Donald. As they say not all is as it seems.

Hope this helps.

Iain




Posted by: Mari' Brown nee HARKIN 26th Mar 2009, 10:47am

Hi Paul

What a brilliant contribution you have made to 'who are the Irish/Scots.

I stumbled across this forum and haven'y had time to read all pages, but I've searched for the least common of my family names HARKIN/HARKAN and it's not one you seem to have commented on.

(My other family names include O'Roarke, Prior, McGovern, McCartan, Honeyman. All but the latter are quite common and I thought it would bemore difficult to trace back the 'right' O'Rourkes' etc. so have
concentrated on HARKIN)

At one time I had thought HARKIN/HARKAN had come from the Norwegians who invaded Inishowen Donegal in the 11/12C. However O Earchan is given as the gaelic form of the name in some sources, so that would make it the clan name of a small unsuccessful - in numbers, old Irish sept from Inishowen.

Until 40 years ago the name was only found in any numbers in Donegal. (In the early'70's nearly ever family business in Moville was owned by a HARKIN, but except for a barbers,the name has all but disappeared when I last looked in 2006.)

It crops up in small numbers in the cities of Derry , Glasgow the UK & USA, where ever the starving Irish emmigrated to in the 19C. or where ever the brothers of the 'american brides' made good in the early 20C.

Our Harkins are one of the few families located outside of Donegal and listed in Griffiths located in Fenagh Co Leitrim in the 1850s. Here is the crux of the mystery. Oral history tells of brothers who moved in to the area to work as baliffs. We assume this was to do the 'dirty work' for the landlords local agent and that the landlord had estates in Donegal from where the family was moved.

(Was balliff a clan 'trade'? In the 'Hanging Gale' a novel loosley based around the family history of the McGann family - the Liverpool actiors, set in Donegal in the famine years the balliff was also a HARKIN.)

Plot thickens further though because these ballif brothers appeared to have settled in three adjoining townland all close to Fenagh Abbey and another adjoining townland DRUMHARKIN! Does this indicate that
there were HARKINs in south Leitrim prior to the upheavals of populations after the famine years.

Paul do you have any of your own comments or other links I can follow? I will check out the Ulster University DNA project write -ups referred to in your ealier blogs.

I am finding genealogy records I could access for free 5/6 years ago have been bought up by some of the Genealogy web businesses and I can only access them by paying subscriptions. I choose not to do this. I think it's disgracefull that UK public records have been sold on by the government and disappeared from the public domaine, after all this information was collected by/archived by local/national government civil
servants, paid for by the taxpayer!

Finally I'm definitely saving this site to my favourites, largely because of your contributions Paul.

Regards
Mari'

Posted by: Drew1952 26th Mar 2009, 12:43pm

If your feeling lonely and have no place tae go just have a read of GGB and then your in the know or at least some 'yin 'll have the answer HEY ON YOU GO lads 'n' lassies it's greeeeeeat! so 'tis

Posted by: Paul Kelly 26th Mar 2009, 08:45pm

Thanks for your interesting contributions Iain and I agree with you that some progenitor stories are questionable to say the least. I will look out for the Scots Gaelic sources you mention.

Campbell is a fascinating Scottish surname which I have written a lot about it and I have also written a lot about the native Gaelic Irish Campbell family of County Tyrone and the mysterious Scottish Galloglass Campbell family of County Donegal.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=148478

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=148323

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=148343

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=161385

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=181807

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=185327


Thanks Mari.

I have briefly mentioned the Harkin surname before in the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'. It is a County Donegal surname and it seems that most of the Donegal people with the surname Harkin who settled in Glasgow in the mid/late 19th century had an 's' added to their surname. The form Harkins is much more common in Glasgow. Another County Donegal surname that this happened to is the Diver (or Dever) surname. Most of the Glaswegian/Scottish descendants of this Donegal family spell their surname Divers (or Devers).

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6148&view=findpost&p=149271

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/

I recently came across an interesting website about a Donegal family with the surname Divers who settled in Glasgow and Dundee in the 19th century. I actually stumbled across the website by accident while researching the native Gaelic Irish surname of Mac Giolla Pheadair - the son of the follower of St Peter - from south west Ulster (west Fermanagh and south Donegal) and north Connacht (east Sligo and north Leitrim), a surname which has been Anglicised as Gilfeather, Kilfeather, Gilfedder or Kilfedder.

http://members.tripod.com/family_divers/

I have also mentioned the McGovern and McCartan surnames before in the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'. If you go on to that topic you will see a 'Search Topic' rectangular box near the bottom of the page. Enter the surname you are interested in.

I have never seen the BBC drama 'The Hanging Gale' which I know is set in County Donegal. However, by chance on TV here, I recently saw the movie 'Dancing at Lughnasa' starring Meryl Streep which is also set in County Donegal. I enjoyed it.

Paul

Posted by: RonD 26th Mar 2009, 10:05pm

I would agree with Iain about the predominance of Gaelic up until the 11th, where it would have been the court language of Malcolm Canmore, until such time as English was introduced by hs second wife Margaret. Scottish Gaelic, while a sister language of Irish Gaelic had by this time, I would guess would have been assimilated the Pictish language but as Paul has suggested would have taken in some certain features along with some of the Nordic languages to give its distinctive Scottish flavour of Gaelic. One example would Mac and "Mc" in Scottish Gaelic while in the Ulster the softer "meg, "ma" m' was heard. The influence of Cymric Pictish language can be found in such place name elements such as Aber as in aberdeen and Pit. Aber in Gaelic is Inver such as in Inverness.

Posted by: dm123 31st Mar 2009, 10:09pm

Dear Paul, Ron et al,

I have very recently joined the GG discussions - quite by accident and I am overwhelmed by the knowledge you all have.
I have found The Scots really Irish thread especially interesting. I have recently started to look up my family tree - although I don't have a huge amount of family information left to collect.
I know that you have previously discussed some of the names however I have read through the discussions many times and it's taking a while to sink in!
The two names I have are Coulter and Neill. I know you have discussed these but just to pick your brains once more could I ask a few more questions.
My mother tells me that Neill was definitely Mc or Mac previously. Can you pinpoint where in Scotland it is likely to be from? I see that McNeill was possibly a Galloglass name although I note from this side of the family they are presbyterian does that then mean they are more likely to have been from the Plantation of Ulster? I note that the family were born in County Armagh & Down although my gt gt grandfather was born in Scotland on the 1911 census.
The Coulter side I notice that my gt gt grandmother spoke Irish and English - (from the 1911 census) and was from the Portadown/Banbridge area of N. Ireland. Do you have any clues as to why this would be?
I'm sorry if you have discussed this before but there is an awful lot to get to grips with!
Keep up the good work!

Posted by: Paul Kelly 4th Apr 2009, 08:01am

Hi dm123.

At the moment I don't have anything further to add to what I have previously written about the McNeill and Coulter surnames. If you type McNeill and Coulter in the rectangular box labelled 'Enter Keywords' near the bottom of this page then you will find all the posts in this topic which mention these 2 surnames. You can also try the same thing in the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'.

Here are 2 of the posts which will be listed.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=147488

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=197621

I have mentioned the McNeill surname in many posts.

Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 10th Apr 2009, 10:51am

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 27th July 2007, 03:09pm) *
Continuing with my last post, I have just been reading a website about the County Donegal surname O'Dochartaigh or Doherty. The website claims that the McCallions (MacAilins) of Donegal are of mixed ancestry. It says that some of the McCallions are related to the native Gaelic Irish O'Doherty family while the other McCallions are of Gallowglass origins. The website also says that the McAilins/MacCailins of Galloglass origins came to Donegal from Argyll in the early 16th century and were probably related to the Campbells of Argyll. The reason given is that 'MacCailean Mor' has been the title used by the chief of the Campbells of Loch Awe, Argyll since the late 13th century.



QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 5th Oct 2007, 01:35pm) *
In posts #46 and #47, I was also questioning the conventional wisdom that the McCallion (MacAilin) Galloglasses were related to the Campbells of Loch Awe. The Campbells are NOT descendants of Somerled (post #48). Ailin MacSomhairle (Alan McSorley) was a grandson of the legendary Somerled. So the Ailin (Alan) name was associated with the descendants of Somerled, as well as with the Campbell clan. In fact, Cailean, not Ailin, is the name associated with the Campbell clan, which has been Anglicised as Colin, not Alan. I still think there is a possibility that the McCallion (MacAilin) Gallowglasses were related to the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay and not to the Campbells of mid Argyll.



QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 22nd Jan 2008, 04:01pm) *
You must be referring to what I wrote in posts #46, #47, #48, #55, #56. I was actually just putting forward a proposition. I didn't have a source. As you say, genealogy books and websites invariably describe the Mac Ailin Galloglasses as being a branch of the Campbells of Argyll primarily because they associate the name 'Ailin' with the Campbells of Argyll. Unless I am somehow mistaken, it struck me one day that it is the name Cailean (Colin) which is associated with the Campbells of Argyll and NOT the name Ailin (Alan) (see post #55 for a fuller discussion of this). In addition, some of the MacAilin (McCallion/McKillen) Galloglasses further Anglicised their surnames to Campbell in the years following the Plantations, especially in County Donegal, again fuelling speculation that the MacAilins were in someway related to the Campbells of Argyll.

I have been interested in Gallowglass history for some time now and it has not escaped my notice that most of the Galloglass families who settled in Ireland seem to have been related to the MacDonalds of southern Argyll (Kintyre and Islay). I was just putting forward the proposition that the MacAilin Gallowglasses may have in fact been related to the McDonalds and not the Campbells, and hoping for some sort of response. What you have said about the result of your Y chromosome DNA test is very interesting. I would love to hear the Y chromosome DNA test results of a group of Donegal McCallion men.


http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=185327

Further to the above extracts from posts #47, #55 and #86 and also what I wrote in post #91, I have recently learned that Mac Ailein or MacAilein (meaning son of Alan) is an ancient surname associated with the McDonald clan. The name Mac Cailin or Mac Cailean (meaning son of Colin) is an ancient title associated with the chief of clan Campbell. I am now more strongly of the opinion that the Catholic MacAilin or MacAilean Galloglass family that settled in Donegal in the the 15th century was probably related to the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay in southern Argyll and not to the Campbells of mid Argyll.

MacAilein = MacAilin = McAllen or McAllan or McAlan = son of Allan = ancient sept of MacDonald clan

MacCailean Mor = MacCailin Mor = son of Colin the Great = title of chief of Campbell clan

Of course, the Gallowglass MacAilin surname was initially Anglicised as McCallion in County Donegal, and following the Scottish Plantations of the 17th century, the surname was sometimes further Anglicised as Campbell probably because of confusion with the MacCailean title which is associated with the Campbells of mid/north Argyll. The 'MacCailean Mor' or 'MacCailin Mor' title has been used by the chief of the Campbells of Loch Awe in mid/north Argyll since the late 13th century.

I recently came across the following article about a MacAilein Gallowglass from Islay who settled in Ireland in the late 13th century. I think it is a ficticious piece but whoever wrote it was obviously of the opinion that the MacAileins were related to the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay and not to the Campbells of mid Argyll.

http://www.macailein.com/

It is well known that many of the Gallowglass families that settled in Ireland were closely related to the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay and were direct descendants of the legendary Somerled. (See many of my earlier posts.) The Campbells of mid Argyll were not descendants of Somerled and were the arch enemies of the McDonalds. I think it is likely that the MacAilins were just another one of those McDonald Gallowglass septs that settled in Ireland in the days before the Plantations. However, after the Scottish Plantations, the name was sometimes incorrectly Anglicised as Campbell probably because of confusion with the MacCailin Mor title which is associated with the chief of the Campbell clan.

Posted by: tj hendrick 11th Apr 2009, 08:20pm

Hi read with interest. i was always told our ancesters hendrick were from Norway. Tracing them I find tem in Ulster where are we from thanks tj

Posted by: Paul Kelly 12th Apr 2009, 10:41am

In the 13th century, the 4 most powerful families in Argyll were MacDougall of Lorn or Lorne (de Ergadie), MacDonald of Kintyre and Islay (de Ile), MacRory of Bute and MacSweeney of Knapdale. The McSweeneys were said to be direct descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages mixed with some Norse (Viking) and Dalriadic Scottish ancestry.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=209821

The other 3 families - McDonald, McDougall and McRory - were said to be direct descendants of Somerled the 12th century King of Kintyre and the Southern Hebrides (Kintyre, Islay, Jura, Arran and Bute).

These 4 once powerful families were probably the original Galloglass families to settle in Ireland in the late 13th and early 14th centuries. 3 other Gallowglass families which are known to have settled in Ireland in the 14th century and who were related to the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay (and were direct descendants of Somerled) were MacAlister (McAllister) from Kintyre, MacSheehy (Sheehy) from Kintyre and Islay and MacSorley from Kintyre and Islay. There was another famous Gallowglass family that settled in Ireland in the 14th century:- the McCabes of Arran. It is somtimes claimed that the McCabes were related to clan MacLeod (McLeod) although no evidence of this is given. It is thought that MacCabe was originally a nickname given by the native Irish to a group of Gallowglasses from Arran who settled in south Ulster in the 14th century because of their appearance. I have always suspected that the McCabes were really related to the MacDonalds of Kintyre and Islay. It is known that the McCabe Gallowglasses used the forenames of Somhairle (Somerled or Sorley) and Ailin (Alan) which were strongly associated with the descendants of Somerled. The MacLeods were not descendants of Somerled.

As I have stated in many earlier posts the Sweeneys were banished from Scotland in the early 14th century by Robert the Bruce and migrated en masse to County Donegal. The McDougalls also suffered under Robert the Bruce and the Campbell clan is known to have been granted McDougall land in Lorne, Argyll by Bruce in the early 14th century. However, by the mid 14th century, it is known that the MacDougalls had re-gained some of this land. Although some McDougalls moved to Ireland as Galloglasses where the surname became Anglicised as McDowell and Doyle (not all Doyles are of Galloglass McDougall ancestry), they didn't move en masse. The McDougall surname obviously did not die out in Scotland as happened with the Sweeney surname. I should add that most people in Ireland today with the surname McDowell are not actually of MacDougall Gallowglass origin. Most are actually descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McDowall Planters from Galloway. It seems most McDowells of Gallowglass origin adopted the Doyle surname. The McDougall family of Lorn in Argyll and the McDowall family of Galloway are said to be unrelated.

The McRorys of Bute lost control of the Isle of Bute to the Stewart clan in the late 13th century. Some MacRories moved to Ireland as Gallowglasses in the late 13th and early 14th centuries, though it should be added that not all McRorys in Ireland are of Gallowglass origin. There was a also a native Gaelic Irish McRory family though through time, the native Irish and Galloglass McRory families became indistinguishable. Although not all McRories moved to Ireland as Gallowglasses it is known that the McRory surname eventually became extinguished in Scotland as those that remained in Scotland were absorbed by other families.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=160394

The McDonald Gallowglasses in Ireland became known by the surname McDonnell.

I have written a lot about the McSorley Gallowglass family of Kintyre and Islay.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=228863

Here is a fantastic 2 part article called 'West Highland Mercenaries in Ireland' by the Kintyre historian Andrew McKerral. Although I have listed this article before I think it is well worth listing again.

http://www.kintyremag.co.uk/1998/15/page6.html

http://www.kintyremag.co.uk/1998/16/page10.html

The following Scotsman newspaper artcles about Professor Bryan Sykes and the Y chromosome DNA of descendants of Somerled also make fascinating reading. It seems that men who are direct descendants of Somerled have a Y-chromosome which is common to Norway. 'ie Somerled was of Viking (Norse) (Norwegian) ancestry in his male line and was not a direct descendant of Colla Uais as had been previously assumed.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/science/DNA-shows-Celtic-hero-Somerleds.2621296.jp

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/ingenuity/Using-science-to-trace-your.2628147.jp

I am sure a few of the other Gallowglass families listed in my article below are probably related to the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay. eg McKay (McCoy) of Kintyre (see post #50), MacAilin (McCallion) (see my previous post #199), MacColla (Coll) (see post #91), MacAulay (McAuley) (see post #51) Gallogly and possibly one or 2 others.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=172828

Posted by: booze bag 12th Apr 2009, 05:11pm

HOW SCOTLAND GOT ITS NAME?

You may aready know that scotland name from the"scoti"or"scotti" a gaelic speaking people how had come from ireland around 500ad and settled in argyle(named then DALRIATA or DALRIADA)when KENNETH1. the 36th king of dalriada deafeated the picts at dunkeld,moved his capital to scone from the west,brought the stone of destiny from ireland where the irish kings where crowned to declare himself KING of "SCOTTI"the stone was never returned to ireland. so there you are we are all "JOCK TAMSONS BAIRNS"--- we are all the same-and equal------- boozbag

Posted by: Paul Kelly 17th Apr 2009, 05:41pm

QUOTE (tj hendrick @ 11th Apr 2009, 10:49pm) *
Hi read with interest. i was always told our ancesters hendrick were from Norway. Tracing them I find tem in Ulster where are we from thanks tj


Hendrick is not a surname I had heard of before but I have just had a quick look around and it seems Hendrick is the Anglicisation of the Irish Gaelic surname O'h-Annraic or Mac Annraic (meaning the descendant or son of Annraic, a Norse personal name similar to Henry). It is quite a rare surname and is found mainly in the Province of Leinster (particularly County Wexford) in southeast Ireland. The Hendrick surname reminds me of the common Irish surname of Doyle. Doyle or O'Doyle is the Anglicisation of the Irish Gaelic surname O'Dubhghaill meaning the descendant of the dark stranger/foreigner. The strangers in question seem to have been Danish Vikings who settled in the south east of Ireland (Leinster Province) in the 9th century. The Norwegian Vikings had fair/blond hair whereas the Danish Vikings were said to be darker haired.

As I mentioned in posts #201 and #81, MacDougall Gallowglasses from Lorn in Argyll settled in Ulster (and Connacht) in the late 13th and early 14th centuries. The Gaelic for McDougall is Mac Dubhghaill or MacDubhghaill and it is known that the MacDougall clan are direct descendants of Somerled. In fact, MacDougall means 'the son of Dougall', the Dougall in question being the oldest son of Somerled. It has always been known that Somerled was of mixed Viking (Norse) and Dalriadic Scottish ancestry though it had always been assumed that Somerled was of Dalriadic Scottish ancestry in his male line and was a direct descendant of Colla Uais, the so called father of Dalriada. As I mentioned in post #201, recent Y-chromosome DNA evidence indicates that Somerled was in fact of Viking (Norwegian) ancestry in his male line.

The McDougall Galloglasses who settled in Ireland in the late 13th and early 14th centuries Anglicised their surnames as McDowell and Dowell. In fact, most of them ultimately Anglicised their surnames as Doyle. I think it is fair to say that some of the Doyles in Ulster (and Connacht) are probably of MacDougall Galloglass origin whereas the Doyles in Leinster (where the surname is most common) are of O'Dubhghaill ancestry.

The McDowell surname is common in Ulster. However most McDowells in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McDowall Planters from Galloway (and 17th century Scottish Protestant MacDougall Planters from Argyll). It is clear that most of the McDowells in Ulster (and Connacht) of 14th century Catholic McDougall Gallowglass origin adopted the common Irish surname of Doyle in the years following the Plantations.

The Scottish McDowall family of Galloway and the Scottish McDougall family of Lorne in Argyll are said to be unrelated.

Posted by: *Hebridean* 4th May 2009, 09:41am

Further to the earlier entry on the name Hendrick, Griffiths Evaluation circa 1848 confirms that the name came from Wexford, mainly Enniscorthy and Gorey, with some small chains of migration west to Kilkenny/Kildare and north to Wicklow/Dublin and elsewhere. None were to be found in Ulster, although there was a very small smattering of the name McKendrick which seems like a shortened form. The forenames used in the Hendrick family suggest they were incomers from the continent or AngloIrish - such as Hans, Nicholas, Jeremiah, Moses, Jeremiah, Ralph, Honoria. Hendrick itself is a Danish or German form of Henry, also to be found in the surname Hendricksen.

Posted by: Guest 12th May 2009, 09:35am

Of all the galloglas houses The MacSween (McSweeneys) are preeminent. Perhaps the most renowned warrior aristocracy in British/Irish history, their history has largely been whitewashed (partly due to the collective amnesia of the Scots regarding West Highland/Hebridean medieval history).
Unfortunately the now-debunked myth of a Milesian/O'Neill ancestry is still propagated at the expense of historical accuracy.
With regards to the Cambells, they claim descent (like so many others) through a female line of the MacSween.
The MacSween were allied with the MacDugall in oppostion to Robert Bruce, though because of a split between the two MacDonald brothers, found themselves on the losing side. The MacSween were the only kindred who carried on the fight. We led where the Macdonalds followed. Our eponym, Sween (Suibhne, King of the Gal-Gaedhil (Norse-Gaels), was the son of Cinead (Kenneth), who defeated Gilla (brother-in-law of Sigurd, Jarl of Orkney) to retake the Isle of Man (his brother was Reginald of Man). He took part in the Battle of Clontarf on the Irish side and died in 1034. It was his son or possibly grandson, Dugald Mac Sween, who built the first castles on the Scottish mainland (Castle Sween, Skipness and Locranza).

Posted by: patricia williamsGuest 13th May 2009, 08:12pm

what does the term gallowglass refer to?

Posted by: RonD 18th May 2009, 10:01am

It is with deep request I have to post this note from Paul's spouse.

" I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I wish to inform you that Mr Paul James Kelly had acar accident on the 7th of May and did not make it.

I wish to thank you all for being part of Paul's Life and for your contribution in this difficult time. I also wish to say to you all; lets celebrate the fact that we knew this wonderful man and that he was part of our lives. do not be saddened by his departure but rember the good things that he did in this world. HE IS A HERO TO OUR FAMILY AND I HOPE HE WAS ALSO THE SAME TO YOU ALL.

Please know that now this email address does not function in the sense that it will never be accessed. I just thought you deserve to know. Sorry for the shockfrom the address( for those who know already).
Thank you."

Mrs Kerly D Kelly ( Spouse)"




Posted by: GG 25th May 2009, 08:55pm

Please note that I have moved all posts expressing condolences at Paul's death into the one topic located here, where they will be easier to find.

Sad News: The Death Of Paul Kelly
http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=16578

I will keep Paul's topics open to discuss the subjects covered.

GG.

Posted by: yeahyeahyeah 24th Jun 2009, 06:33am

First of all the Scoti were not Irish.They were a tribe from The Iberian peninsula of Spain.So are the Irish really Spanish?Furthermore as I have said before it is simply a movement of people in early times.To suggest that the Scots are really Irish because of a tribal movement eons ago is insulting.The Scots are the Scots.

Posted by: ceader bhoy 24th Jun 2009, 07:49pm

t

QUOTE (yeahyeahyeah @ 24th Jun 2009, 06:50am) *
First of all the Scoti were not Irish.They were a tribe from The Iberian peninsula of Spain.So are the Irish really Spanish?Furthermore as I have said before it is simply a movement of people in early times.To suggest that the Scots are really Irish because of a tribal movement eons ago is insulting.The Scots are the Scots.

the scots are irish. the name caledonia scoti came from the irish people how settled in the west of albion if you want to call it that, the scot irish wiped out the picts at the battle of dunkeld albion was no more. it was called scotia we are all off irish genes hibernian was the wife off a irish king how was expeled from greece via spain, its a fact that the irish are the true scots the kilt came from ireland and the bag pipes and whiskey

Posted by: angel 25th Jun 2009, 01:55am

there have been emigrations of peoples from the mainland of Europe
since time itself , some landing in what we know as Ireland and others in the west coast of todays Scotland , and I understand that although these emigration took place at different times in history, they were carried out by the same race. who invaded and conquered the west coast of Scotland
from their new land which is todays Ireland, so I figure we are all Jock Tamsons Bairns and I like that just fine. smile.gif

Posted by: JMcHarg 2nd Jul 2009, 07:32pm

Hi, i'm a McHarg from Scotland, there seems to be very little information on this surnames history (in Scotland) but i have read that McHarg, Meharg, and McHargue are all the same name and originate in Ireland. I've also read that McHarg's are rarely found outside of Galloway, my father and his family are from Glasgow.

My brother found a site where they were apparently doing DNA tests on McHarg's and found that every McHarg tested had the Niall of The Nine Hostages DNA.

My mother's family are Ross and i've heard they have an Irish connection too, so any information on McHarg and Ross in regards to Ireland would be much appreciated.

Posted by: Christinemck 6th Jul 2009, 11:17pm

I have just discovered this site and this thread and would like to know if anyone can help me....

I am trying to trace further back than a marriage in Antrim in 1851.
The man's name was McKillop (he and his family then came to Greenock).
I have gathered that McKillop may be a "planter" name. My father said that his family came from the Oban area but I can find no connection back to there. The furthest back I can trace is this marriage in Ireland. Then it goes cold.
Is it in fact possible that a McKillop went from Oban to Ireland and then came back again, this time to Greenock?

Posted by: RonD 6th Jul 2009, 11:51pm

QUOTE (JMcHarg @ 2nd Jul 2009, 08:49pm) *
Hi, i'm a McHarg from Scotland, there seems to be very little information on this surnames history (in Scotland) but i have read that McHarg, Meharg, and McHargue are all the same name and originate in Ireland. I've also read that McHarg's are rarely found outside of Galloway, my father and his family are from Glasgow.

My brother found a site where they were apparently doing DNA tests on McHarg's and found that every McHarg tested had the Niall of The Nine Hostages DNA.

My mother's family are Ross and i've heard they have an Irish connection too, so any information on McHarg and Ross in regards to Ireland would be much appreciated.


Maharg, Mcharg, Meharg and MacHarg are variants of McIlhagga. In Gaelic is MacGiolla Chairge or the scottish Gaelic Mac Giolla Domhnaigh. Giolla is Gillie servant or lad and the lst elements aren't identified in my resource So the name son of the servant of ..... and the named implied was usually a Saint's name. Some mythical story had the strory as a person named Graham who ran away from Scotland to Ireland changed his name to the reverse, Maharg.

Posted by: RonD 6th Jul 2009, 11:55pm

QUOTE (Christinemck @ 7th Jul 2009, 12:34am) *
I have just discovered this site and this thread and would like to know if anyone can help me....

I am trying to trace further back than a marriage in Antrim in 1851.
The man's name was McKillop (he and his family then came to Greenock).
I have gathered that McKillop may be a "planter" name. My father said that his family came from the Oban area but I can find no connection back to there. The furthest back I can trace is this marriage in Ireland. Then it goes cold.
Is it in fact possible that a McKillop went from Oban to Ireland and then came back again, this time to Greenock?


This is a tough that can only resolved by family digging. There was much toing and froing between Scotland and Ireland over thousands of years. Even prior the "plantions" there was MacDonald interest in Ireland since it was so accesible to the western isles. So a name like McKillop which is nominally a Macdonald sept could have been present for millenia in Ireland and like many Irish immigrants at the time of the famines ( there was more than one) have come back to Scotland for employment.

Posted by: RonD 7th Jul 2009, 12:10am

QUOTE (yeahyeahyeah @ 24th Jun 2009, 07:50am) *
First of all the Scoti were not Irish.They were a tribe from The Iberian peninsula of Spain.So are the Irish really Spanish?Furthermore as I have said before it is simply a movement of people in early times.To suggest that the Scots are really Irish because of a tribal movement eons ago is insulting.The Scots are the Scots.


The Scoti was the Latin name that Romans occupiers of Britain gave to the northern people of the island of Hibernia.i.e. Ireland These Scots were members of s Gaelic Celtic group that had invaded Ireland approximately 500 B.C. Their part of Ireland was called Dalraida and they extended their powers to include the Western Isles of what is now Scotland. Yes they are presumed to have originated the Iberian penisula but how long does a people have to be in area before they can call themselves after their new land? It would have been approximately 900 years in Ireland after their arrival before moving to the present day Scotland, so if they weren't Irish who were the Irish? Just because the new land was called after them doesn't make all the residents Scots either, what the Normans, the Strathclyde Britons, the Picts and the Angles, are they Scots? So all the descendants of these groups who have interbred should the yreally be allowed to calls themselves Scots. I think we are just getting a little hung up on semmantics. There is no definitive in racial lines in national identity, omething that didn't really exist in that late time period.

Posted by: JMcHarg 7th Jul 2009, 02:37pm

QUOTE (RonD @ 7th Jul 2009, 12:08am) *
Maharg, Mcharg, Meharg and MacHarg are variants of McIlhagga. In Gaelic is MacGiolla Chairge or the scottish Gaelic Mac Giolla Domhnaigh. Giolla is Gillie servant or lad and the lst elements aren't identified in my resource So the name son of the servant of ..... and the named implied was usually a Saint's name. Some mythical story had the strory as a person named Graham who ran away from Scotland to Ireland changed his name to the reverse, Maharg.


Thank's for replying, i did some googleing and a site says that it means either Hound of the rock or Lad of the rock, what do you think about the authenticity of this?
http://www.ancestry.com/facts/mcharg-name-meaning.ashx

Posted by: the brauns 10th Jul 2009, 01:47am

Hello JMcHarg, I have just now read your McHarg query and wanted to tell you we have McHarg's in our family tree also. My gr. gr gr grandfather's sister, Margaret (b. abt. 1841), married a James McHarg, (son of David McHarg and Jame McKim), a hand loom weaver, in Ireland. They had 6 children, David John, b. 1864, Ellen (Hellen), b. 1865 (twins), James, b. 1866, Eliza, b. 1869, Andrew, b. 1872, and Susanna, b. 1877. The last child, Susanna was born to them in Glasgow. As far as I know, they have been in Glasgow area ever since. "Our" James McHarg died in 1908. I don't know if we are related some how or not.

On some of the records at Scotland's People, the McHarg name is also spelled Meharg.

Posted by: the brauns 10th Jul 2009, 12:12pm

Sorry, meant to say David John and Ellen (Hellen on some records) were twins, born in 1864. Typo there! Do these people seem familiar in your family tree?

Posted by: JMcHarg 10th Jul 2009, 02:15pm

I'm not sure, i'll speak to my father about it though.

Posted by: *Hebridean* 10th Jul 2009, 07:24pm

In answer to the query about who were the original inhabitants of Ireland, I know next to nothing on this topic but a starter for those who are interested is to look up the Firbolg who were an ancient race of people that ruled Ireland before the Tuatha de Danaan and the Melesians. Legend has it that the Firbolg were enslaved by the Greeks. For three centuries their persecution continued before they eventually stole some Greek ships and set sail for Ireland. The leaders of the escape were five brothers, Slainge, Rudraige, Genann, Gann, and Sengann.

Posted by: the brauns 11th Jul 2009, 04:45pm

It would be funny if it were the same family.

Posted by: DDownie 16th Aug 2009, 01:56pm

QUOTE (RonD @ 7th Jul 2009, 01:08am) *
Maharg, Mcharg, Meharg and MacHarg are variants of McIlhagga. In Gaelic is MacGiolla Chairge or the scottish Gaelic Mac Giolla Domhnaigh. Giolla is Gillie servant or lad and the lst elements aren't identified in my resource So the name son of the servant of ..... and the named implied was usually a Saint's name. Some mythical story had the strory as a person named Graham who ran away from Scotland to Ireland changed his name to the reverse, Maharg.


To support RonD,

I belive that my surname Downie is derived from Mcildownie in the Argyll area, as most of my DNA matches are in the SW or Scotland or the North West of Irland. Black's "Surnames of Scotland" desribes the surname of Mcildownie as from the Gaelic Mc Gille Domhnaich or son of the servant of Sunday. Further to this DNA testing at 67 markers shows I have a match with a McHargue and that my DNA haplogroup is M222+ or the Ui Niall haplotype. Facts can sometimes be far better than stories smile.gif!

Regards.

Posted by: *Hebridean* 5th Sep 2009, 09:10pm

It was suggested in an earlier post (3rd September 2006) that the Gaelic of the Inner Hebrides resembled that in Donegal, hence some additional proof of where the Gallowglasses of West Ulster emanated from. As a Gaelic speaker from the Outer Hebrides who happens to live in Donegal, I would have to disagree - I have on a few occasions listened in to Donegal Gaelic being spoken in the local hostelries there and not been able to make head nor tail of it. On the other hand, I can get tuned in better to the Gaelic of Connemara.

Listen to the Gaelic of Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh of Altan (a native speaker from Donegal) at http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=y-IdyWs3axc and compare it with that of Julie Fowlis of Uist http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnBBQ-_D2Hc and hear the difference. Karen Mathieson of Capercaillie (a native of Taynuilt) would be a better choice perhaps but Julie and Karen's Gaelic are very similar.

Posted by: *Hebridean* 6th Sep 2009, 06:56am

Or Downie could be a variant of Downey, an ancient Irish name which comes from the Gaelic O' Dunadhaich, son of the fortress-holder. Famous people of that name are the actors Roma Downey and Robert Downey Junior. In Derry City, which is where Roma hails from, there is a neighbourhood called Rossdowney.

I wonder about the other derivation of the name, Mac Gille Domhnaich? In fact, if being true to the Gaelic, this would be Mac Gille Dhomhnaich, as the initial consonent of the progenitor 'Domhnaich' would be aspirated and become Dhomnaich. In so doing, the hard 'd' sound would be lost.

Posted by: RonD 19th Jan 2010, 07:50pm

Paul Kelly would have loved this and probably would have had some comments.

For those tha t interested in the Irish and Scots Gaels, this really good reading but I warn you it can be heavy reading http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/cairney/index.htme biggrin.gif

Posted by: DennisSouth 16th Sep 2010, 01:02pm

Hi

I noticed in this section discussion on Kelly families, St Roch's and Garngadhill all of which are relative to my wife's family. I am trying to find details of any relatives of people that may have gone to school with my wife's mother. She was born in 1928 and called Sarah Craig (may have used Susan as her name) and living at 39 Bright Street. Mother was Christina Kelly

Christina Kelly
12 December 1908 5h 30m PM
29 Parson Street, Glasgow
Father - John Kelly - Carter
Mother - Mary Kelly m/s Kelly
Parents married - 1 March 1907 - Glasgow
Registered by Father
ST ROLLOX - GLASGOW

And father was Thomas Angus Craig a boot repairer

Other addresses I have are
1 Bowling Green Terrace, Glasgow
35 Young Street, Glasgow
29 Parson Street, Glasgow
73 Glebe Street, Glasgow

Any information will be most welcome.

Thanks

Dennis

Posted by: dizzybint 27th Oct 2010, 06:07pm

IM over at NI and Ireland quite a lot and a man we spoke to said that the Maguires were actually scottish and took over part of Ireland becoming like royalty there.. now I dont know if this is true or not.. the first Scottish kings were from Ireland though and set up a fort in Dalriada Scotland.. but there were people here before that .

Posted by: Gallusbisom 27th Oct 2010, 08:18pm

Dennis, my grandfather was a carter about the same time as John Kelly. His name was James Barbour. Now I know it is a very long shot but I will ask my uncle, who is the last and youngest of James' children, if any he remembers any of these names. People did move around much in those days, so there is a slight chance that we may get a hit.

Some of my Granpa's family also came from Ireland (well, actually on both sides of my family) So here's hoping. GB

Posted by: donfad 24th Apr 2011, 12:08pm

Were the McVeys descended from the MacPhees of Colonsay and were they Galloglasses?

Posted by: Dunvegan 27th Apr 2011, 02:33am

QUOTE (donfad @ 24th Apr 2011, 10:25pm) *
Were the McVeys descended from the MacPhees of Colonsay and were they Galloglasses?

Galloglass means Green Gael? but is an English word derived from the Irish "Galloglaigh"
meaning foreign soldier and later to mean soldiers.
In general it refers to Celtic and Norse Celtic soldiers mainly from the North west and outer Islands. To find out if the clanns you refered to could be among the Galloglass would need some research into clann origins.

Posted by: RonD 27th Apr 2011, 09:51am

QUOTE (donfad @ 24th Apr 2011, 01:25pm) *
Were the McVeys descended from the MacPhees of Colonsay and were they Galloglasses?

The Gaelic name MacFie and Mahaffey and Macafee all come from the Scottish Gaelic for the "dark man of peace.
McVey most likely came from the Irish Gaelic McVeagh or son of Life similar to the Scottish Gaelic MacBeth. McVey could also be a from a version of MacEvoy Irish Gaelic for man of the woods.
It is difficult to ascertain sometimes what the original names were since so many Gaelic sounds were similar to an English clerk's ear. This combined with many Irish trying to sound more Scottish or English in a society where the native Irish were second class citizens in their own country.

Posted by: Dunvegan 4th May 2011, 05:22am

Not all the prominent clans were from Irish Gaelic extraction. There was a lot of cross nmigration during the history of Scotland's formation as a single country. There were the continental Celts of southern Scotland the Northumbrians in the far south, and the Picta in the central and eastern part. this was prior to the Scotii from Antrim (Aontriom) Settling in the west and Western Isles. The north west and far north being Norwegian.
After the pass of centuries many of these people adopted the name of clan affiliations; Mac Auley, was Ollafson, Mac Leod , Luddson etc. The Picta or Pictii the origin of the name Picta still uncertain, as all continental celts would have painted themselves in battle, also had Scottish /Irish Gaelic names and appeared in Ireland as the Cruathin. There is also historical evidence of migration of Continental Celts to the land of the "insular Celts" IE. Ireland prior to Dalriadan settlement of mainland Scotland. SO names can be interchangeable with affiliations as much as being born into a particular tribe or "ethnic"grouping.

Posted by: Fear Grinn 5th May 2011, 08:57am

QUOTE (donfad @ 24th Apr 2011, 12:16pm) *
Were the McVeys descended from the MacPhees of Colonsay and were they Galloglasses?



There is a strong historical connection between Colonsay and Northern Ireland but whether that includes MacPhees, I don’t know. Also, whether the MacPhees were Gallowglasses is something else I don’t know. On the balance of probabilities, however, the answer to both queries is maybe ‘Yes’. Sadly, the person who could have answered the queries was the much-missed Paul Kelly. A quote from Paul goes:

‘When I started researching Galloglass families, the initial impression I got was that they originated in the Western Isles (Outer Hebrides and northern Inner Hebrides). However, I now know that this is certainly NOT the case. They all seem to have come from southern Argyll (Kintyre, Knapdale and Cowal) and the surrounding islands of the southern Inner Hebrides (Islay, Jura, Colonsay, Gigha, Arran and Bute). In particular, I have been trying to locate the origins of those Galloglass families who relocated to Ireland en masse and whose surnames appear to have died out in Scotland’.

Curiously, there is no mention anywhere of the MacPhees who were one of the two main clans on Colonsay. The main historical figure who connected Colonsay and Ireland was Colkitto, a scion of the MacDonald clan that owned Colonsay for centuries, in tandem with the MacPhees, a clan that is an offshoot of Clan MacKinnon and descended from Kenneth MacAlpin, King of Scotland.
Colonsay was a place of great strategic significance. It was the gateway to the western seaboard of Scotland and a thoroughfare for the Gallowglasses en route to Ireland.

Your query boils down to whether your McVeys were descended from the Beatons (MacBheathas) or the MacPhees then? Either way, both these clans had strong connections with North Antrim in the first instance, through their association with the MacDonalds, Colonsay and the Gallowglases. The official history of the MacPhee Clan makes no mention of McVey as a variant of MacPhee, however, so perhaps MacBeth (Beaton) is still the more likely contender as clan of origin?

Whatever about Jacobite sympathies, neither the Beatons or MacPhees were known to have been warrior clans. Both were under the protectorship (as were the MacNeils) of the MacDonalds of the Isles – the Beatons were hereditary physicians to the MacDonalds; the MacPhies were their hereditary historians and record-keepers.


Posted by: Dunvegan 7th May 2011, 10:53am

Another aside about the use of "clan" family names. It was often the case in Scotland that individuals would attach themselves to certain clans,having no contact with, nor being affiliated with a prominent clan and take on the name of that said clan. As the chieftains were always anxious to gain more swords and population they were seldom turned away. They would take the name also of places they settled in and if the place were Gaelic speaking region would adapt the name to themselves and offspring. There is also the case of "broken men" highlanders who for some reason or other could not use their "native name' IE the name
Mac Gregor was outlawed in usage. There is evidence of chieftains making payments to tenants to have them "adopt" the clan name and thus swell their ranks. Finaly individuals for whatever reason choose no to use their patrimony but decide to use the name of a more prominent ancestor. Unless a family name can be traced back with documentation for individual members, it is not certain that a "clan" or "native name has any relevance to ancestry or any connection the clan it seems to refer to.

Posted by: Fear Grinn 8th May 2011, 09:22am

How to tell apart 'true' from 'adopted' surnames.

Each family or clan group has branches that are typically represented by at least one unique marker. For example, it should be possible to separate MacDonald from MacDougall from MacAllister. With respect to R1a1 haplotypes, MacDonalds mostly carry a mutation from Lord John of the Isles (circa 1350AD); MacAlisters do not carry this mutation; and MacDougall data is not yet available. The relevance of this example is that these clans were all descended within three generations from Somerled, Lord of the Isles.

If you look at the markers for Clan Donald R1a1 haplotypes, you will see a combination of two markers, DYS458 and DYS459a. Clan Donald have the combination of 16/8 for these markers, except for the Highland branch which has 15/8. Many more haplotypes in 67-marker format are needed for this to be definite about the Scottish Branch as a whole. With R1b1 haplotypes, ie. not ‘true MacDonalds’ (sic), it is practically impossible to tell the difference between these different clans. The most that can be said is that all the Clan MacDonald (Scottish Branch, Highland sub-branch), apart from ‘daughtered out’ and adoptees carry a SNP mutation which is not carried by lowland clans. The MacAlisters generally sit in the Scottish (Highland sub-branch) branch as well, as do the Alexanders, but there also appears to be a lowland sub-branch.

This type of approach can be applied to any of the major clans and their 'hangers-on'.



Posted by: Tom McCabe 28th Jul 2011, 07:11pm

Hello. Please explain why you believe that the McCabe's were from Aran and not the Isle of Lewis or Harris which is what most scholars of the subject believe. Thank you for your extremely interesting blog. Tom McCabe

Posted by: tarzan 7th Aug 2011, 07:45am

Ireland was once called Scotland and the people of that island were once called Scots, Scotland has never been called Ireland and the people have never been known as Irish.

The ethnic group is "Gaelic" both belong to that, there is no argument about that (I hope).
Scotland means "land of the Scots".
Ireland means " land of the westerners", named because they were the western "Gaels" (or even, shock horror, " western Scots").

To say "Irish" means "Gaelic", or Highlanders are Irish is as offensive, ignorant and chauvinistic, as saying "English" means "British" and that Lowlanders are English.


From the catholic encyclopedia

In ancient times it was known by the various names of Ierna, Juverna, Hibernia, Ogygia, and Inisfail or the Isle of Destiny. It was also called Banba and Erin, and lastly Scotia, or the country of the Scots. From the eleventh century, however, the name Scotia was exclusively applied to Caledonia, the latter country having been peopled in the sixth century by a Scottish colony from Ireland. Henceforth Ireland was often called Scotia Major and sometimes Ireland, until, after the eleventh century, the name Scotia was dropped and Ireland alone remained.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08098b.htm

Posted by: Glasgow Girl 7th Aug 2011, 08:14am

Mon the Kelts/Celts. Wish more people were proud to be one wink.gif

Posted by: Fear Grinn 14th Aug 2011, 10:13am

Au contraire, there are many examples, too numerous to mention - but Dr Johnson and Boswell's Tour of the Highlands might be a suitable starting point - of the Gaelic speakers in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland being referred to as Irish and their language as Erse.

Posted by: Eugene Kelly 12th Oct 2011, 10:47pm

To respond to Paul Kelly. I am decended from a MacCabe. I also have MacCabes all throughout my family tree. I also have the O'rourkes on my family tree who hired the MacCabes as gallowglasses. I thought you should know that the story goes that the Clan MacCaba (Also Chaba, Chapa) was started by a Macleod with the nickname "Caba" meaning cap, or helmet and meaning "son of the capped one" or "son of the helmeted one." The story says that a Macleod with the nickname Caba decided to start his own clan(which was more common then people think), so he started Clan Chaba. So as the story goes the MacCabes have a direct bloodline connection to the Macleods because their clan was started by a Macleod. Which is why it says in the book "On the Fomorians and the Norsemen" by Duald Mac Firbis on page 29 that the "MacCabes" are a branch of the "Macleods of Arran", not a sept, but a "branch", implying a direct bloodline connection. I don't know where I read it but, but I believe I read somewhere else that the "Macleods of Arran" are a branch of the "Macleods of Lewis." Not postitve that, that is accurate, so it still needs to be verified. Because the Duald MacFirbis's book "On the Fomorians and the Norsemen" says that the MacCabes decend from Tormod, not Torquil which the Macleods of Lewis claim to decend from. On pages 11 and 12 of MacFirbis's book it shows the lineage of the Macleods and of the "Clan Chaba"(MacCabes), also called Clan Chapa. On Paged 5 and 6 it shows the lineages of the Clan Macleod and the Clan MacCaba (Chaba) in Scots Gaelic. On page 32 of MacFirbis's book it discusses the "Macleods of Arran" a little bit. I find what you said about the MacCabes using the forenames of Ailin and Somhairle (Somersled) very interesting. I can not say if it is totally true yet. But I did find some information that may show some connections and that looks to be relevant to the matter.

Duald MacFirbis's book "On the Fomorians and the Norsemen"

http://books.google.com/books?id=Hbp-nn-KSxMC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=%20Arran&f=false

This website shows King Somersled (Somhairle),which means "Summer Traveler", a name which you have already connected to the MacCabes, is also the name of King Somersled who is connected by marriage to the daughter of "Olaf King of Mann", Ragnailt. "Ragnailt" and her father Olaf King of Mann (Godred II Olafsson), are believed and said to be a part of the Clan Macleod ancestry and bloodline.

http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/scotlandshistory/makingthenation/somerled/index.asp

I also found this site showing a "Raghnall Mac Somhairle" who's father was King Somerled (Somhairle), King of Kintyre and Lord of the Isles and of Mann. Raghnall Mac Somhairle's mother was "Raghnailt"(also Ragnhildis Olafsdottir, and Ragnhilda). Raghnailt was the daughter of King Olaf I (Olaf Godredsson, also ),Lord of the Isles and of the Isle of Mann. This shows the name Somhairle or Somersled being connected to King Olaf I of the Isles and of the Isle of Mann, who I believe is an ancestor of the Macleod Clan, as well as to the Clan MacCabe since you have said that Somhairle and Ailin are forenames used by MacCabe's, as your research has shown. It should also be pointed out that Somerled in 1140, before he became Lord of the Isles and of the Isle of Mann, was the King of Kintyre. Kintyre is located right next to the Isle of Arran the ancestral lands of the MacCabes who are a branch of the Macleods of Arran. (See Duald MacFirbis's book "On the Fomorians and the Norsemen", page 29)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raghnall_mac_Somhairle

I found these websites that show a connection between the name Ailin (Alan) and Somerled. King Somerled married Raghnailt(Rhagnhildis Olafsdottir) daughter of King Olaf I, Lord of the Isles and of the Isle of Man(Mann). Somerled had a son named Ragnall. Ragnall had a son named Ruaidhri Mac Raghnaill. It says on the sites I posted below that Ruaidhri Mac Raghnaill started Clan Macruari and he had a son named "Ailean" (Ailin, Alan). Ailean(Ailin, Alan,) I believe is pronuouced "Aile-on." Ailean had a son named Ruaidhri Mac Ailean (Ailin, Alan). Ruaidhri Mac Ailean (Ailin,Alan) had two sons Ragnall Mac Ruari and Ailean Mac Ruari.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacRuairis

According to Duald Mac Firbis's book "On the Fomorians and Norseman" on page 11, it is clearly shown that the Clan Chaba (MacCabes) and the Clan Macleod lineages are identical. Both the Macleods and MacCabes have in their family lineages that they decend from a Magnus(King of Norway). Both clans decend from an "Alexander." Both clans decend from a "Tormod." Both clans decend from a "Gilla Christ." Both clans decend from a "Constantine." Both clans decend from a "Ruaidhri." Both clans decend from a "Lochlainn." All the spellings of these names are identical. The similarities are beyond uncanny. They are identical. Their is absolutely no chance that this is just a coincidence. The Clan Macleod is most definitely directly related by blood to the Clan MacCaba (Chaba, Chapa, MacCabe, McCabe).

This website talks about a Lochlann (or Lochlan) who was the "Lord of Galway." He died on December 12, 1200. A Lochlainn is mentioned in the Macleod lineage as well as the MacCabe lineage in Duald MacFirbis's book "On the Fomorians and the Norsemen" on pages 11. The history of the Lochlannachs (Norsemen) which is where the name Lochlann comes from can be read on pages 7 through 16 in MacFirbis's book. You can read the Scots Gaelic version of the history of the Lochlannachs on pages 1 through 5 of MacFirbis's book. What is also interesting is that this same website that I have posted below on "lochlann" mentions a warrior named "Gille Coluim" of Galway. Their is a Gille Coluim that is in the Macleod lineage according to Duald MacFirbis's book "On the Fomorians and the Norsemen" on page 11. What is also interesting about this website is that it states that Lochlann and Helena married and had a son named Alan who succeeded to Galway. Ailin or Alan was a forename used by the MacCabes (Clan Chaba, MacCaba) according to Paul Kelly's research. This seems to be a strong connection. Because it mentions the name Lochlann, Gilla Coluim, and Alan. I added it because it seems to have some relevancy, and that a focus on "Galway" may be of some importance. Their is another Lochlann who is king of Armagh mentioned in MacFirbis's book. Sources on on Lochlann, Gilla Colluim, and Alan are below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lochlann,_Lord_of_Galloway
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan,_Lord_of_Galloway
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gille_Ruadh

Link to Duald MacFirbis's book "On the Fomorians and the Norsemen"

Also edited with notes by Alexander Bugge and also edited previously by Dr. John O'Donovan

http://books.google.com/books?id=Hbp-nn-KSxMC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=%20Arran&f=false

On page 11 and 12 of this book their is a geneology given for the Clan Macleod and the Clan MacCaba (Chaba, Chapa, MacCabe, McCabe). Then on page 33 two more geneologies were stated for the Clan Macleod. Their is only one geneology given for Clan Chaba (MacCabe,McCabe) and it is not contested or claimed to be fraudulant. Pages 25 through 35 discuss the three geneologies for Macleod. I do not believe that Alexander Bugge who adds notes and commentary to this book is really strong at all in his knowledge of Irish history, which he admits in the book. He questions Dr. O'Donovan's interpretation of "Gregus" as deriving from "Graece" meaning "A Greek." He says he does not know why O'Donovan claimed this. He apparently was not aware of the story of Scota (Egyptian) and Gaythelos a Scythian (Greek) or the story of Fenius Farsa also a Scythian (Greek) who is said to have created the Irish Ogam writing system and the Irish language "Gaelic." It is also said that the language of "Gaelic" may have been created by Gaythelos and that it derives from his name. The irish also claimed a greek decent as early as 4th century B.C. It is well known that their are greek elements including greek names in irish culture. Alexander Bugge should have been aware of this before he decided to provide commentary for Duald MacFirbis's book.

Other sources that I found on the matter, and some sources that don't have anything to do with it, but are interesting:

This website provides a discussion on the geneology of the Viking kings of the Scottish Isles and the Isle of Man:

http://www.macleodgenealogy.org/Research/Sellar.html

This is an excellent website on the geneology of the Viking kings of the Scottish Isles and of the Isle of Man:

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~medieval/man.htm

This is an excellent book on the MacCabe(McCabe) Scottish gallowglasses:

http://www.amazon.com/Galloglas-Hebridean-Highland-Mercenary-Kindreds/dp/1862322511/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1222279769&sr=8-1

This is a nice site on McCabe history:

http://www.thegallowglass.com/

Someone should use this information and take it to go even further with the historical connections to the Clan Macleod and Clan Macaba (MacCabe, McCabe) and find the answer to this mystery. Somewhere in some old library is an ancient document or some ancient manuscript that provides answers that we do not have that can shed some light on the question of the Clan Macleod and Clan MacCaba (MacCabe McCabe) pedigree, and provide more information that we do not have. Perhaps their is something that can be found in the records or manuscripts of Norway.

This is an interesting book of geneologies by John O'Hart:

http://books.google.com/books?id=IrPnKqd_63gC&pg=PA516&lpg=PA516&dq=Ard+O%27ceallaigh&source=bl&ots=rTI2dtgqar&sig=fEAK96toW64z_MzS1FTOX-edkOM&hl=en&ei=1ICMToGAIozE0AGgu5T5BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CF0Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Ard%20O%27%20gCeallaigh&f=false

Posted by: tarzan 2nd Nov 2011, 12:54pm

Has an Irish historian, or commentator, ever acknowledged that their island was originally called "Scotland" and the people "Scots"?

Posted by: RonD 12th Nov 2011, 09:50am

I don't think so but the Romans referred to the north of Ireland as Scotia Major and the western part of Scotland as Scotia Minor.

Posted by: wondering 4th Jan 2012, 06:32am

Ah yes but in ancient times Ireland was called Scoti

Posted by: seamus1954 28th Jun 2012, 10:05pm

Dear Mr Kelly , you post are very informative ,very well written , I am somewhat confused one one point the Normans were originally Vikings or is that not correct , anyway Very enjoyable reading Thank You Seamus

Posted by: seamus1954 29th Jun 2012, 03:34am

Dear Mr Kelly , Would there be any information on the surname in our bloodline Lamb The Clan Lamont has a letter that was registered in the The Court of the Lord 1699 that states the Lambs in england were Originally Lamonts from The Cowal peninsula in Argyll thus most Anciently Dalriada Scots , Making them Of Irish decent Did you ever come across this subject before ? Sincerely Seamus

Posted by: Dun Stoshious 3rd Jul 2012, 04:03am

QUOTE (seamus1954 @ 28th Jun 2012, 11:20pm) *
Dear Mr Kelly , you post are very informative ,very well written , I am somewhat confused one one point the Normans were originally Vikings or is that not correct , anyway Very enjoyable reading Thank You Seamus

The word Norman is a derivative of Norseman. The word Viking is a term used to denote those who go A' viking or raiding. Although all Vikings were Norsemen it is not correct to say all Norsemen were Vikings. Norse was considered a viable language in Scotland, know as the country of the four languages at one time. The others being Anglic, Irish and what is erroneously referred to as Welsh.

Posted by: RonD 3rd Jul 2012, 09:16am

Seamus: I'm sorry to say that we lost Paul Kelly in a car accident about two years back. We all miss his informative postings.

Posted by: RonD 3rd Jul 2012, 09:31am

I can say, that the Normans were originally Vikings, who settled in that part of France in the 10th century. William the conqueror was descended from Rollo the first of leader of that group. They wrested Normandy from the King of France and eventually became the Dukes of the area and vassals of the King of France.

Posted by: seamus1954 3rd Jul 2012, 07:28pm

Ron D , My God I am so sorry as I am new to the Boards I did not know , He seamed to be a gifted writer !! thank you for your post Seamus

Posted by: zascot 4th Jul 2012, 05:25am

Don`t worry seamus1954 on this board you get people disappearing and re emerging years later so noone knows where they have got to.

Posted by: RonD 4th Jul 2012, 09:36am

Paul's last post on this thread #203 was in April 2009 and the announcement of his death was post 207.

Posted by: Gallusbisom 4th Jul 2012, 11:57am

You know what RonD I think you have, by right, inherited Paul's mantle. You also are deep into family research and if anyone can help Seamus it is y'all.










Posted by: RonD 6th Jul 2012, 01:07am

Well Gallus I appreciate your compliment, while I do admit to an avid interest in the subject matter, I can only skim the surface of the deep pool that Paul knew so well and shared so willingly.

Posted by: Becca 7th Aug 2012, 02:01am

Hello.
I am looking for information on a book character that is most definitely someone from throughout history. You seem quite knowledgeable. The book is called Shadow of Night by Deborah Harkness, the book is partly about vampires many of whom portray true people throughout history. I know that the character Gallowglass is not a Berserker...he is Úlfhéðnar, Norse and Scots by way of Ireland. He is also described as a Gael. I know that he was around in 1485, he may also have ties to France. I know this is a long shot and I probably seem crazy but it is driving me crazy that we can not figure out who this guy is!! His co-Hort in the book goes by Hancock and is portrayed as Davey Gam. IF that helps at all. Thanks for looking at this and I totally understand if you can not help me.
Sincerely, Becca...crazy book lover.

Posted by: seamus1954 18th Aug 2012, 08:45pm

QUOTE (RonD @ 6th Jul 2012, 02:22am) *
Well Gallus I appreciate your compliment, while I do admit to an avid interest in the subject matter, I can only skim the surface of the deep pool that Paul knew so well and shared so willingly.

Ron D , Would they be anything on the Surname Lamb The Clan Lamont claims that is a sept of The Clan Lamont what would you think? Seamus

Posted by: RonD 19th Aug 2012, 09:07am

Hi Seamus: Yes Lamb is associated with Clan Lamont in the Scottish Encyclopedia of Clans and Tartans. Lamb was probably the Anglicization of Lamont into English. However, Lamb was a name found throughout Scotland so anyone with the name is not necessarily associated with Clan Lamont.

Posted by: Gallusbisom 19th Aug 2012, 02:22pm

Wear the mantle with pride.


Mind you I may ask you a few questions maself. LOL

Posted by: Galloglas 1st Jan 2013, 11:15am

Just found this forum some interesting stuff on here.Really good reading. I'm a McCabe my Grandfather came from Co Cavan.
As for the origins of the family I've heard of the Macleod link and the Arran link however as yet I don't think I've seen anything to firm either story up.
There is a McCabe DNA site and I have submitted my DNA but I really can't get my head round it.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/mccabe/default.aspx?section=results

I have my own theory that the McCabes ended up there when King Robert's brother Edward went to Ireland. There is a hill on the Cavan/Meath border called Bruce hill so he must have been operating in that area.
I've also seen old gravestones from the 18th and 19th century in Killinkere Co Cavan and some of the names are Torquil and Sorley. I also know that even in the early 19th century the McCabes were still being referred to as "foreigners"
As to the origins of the name I've heard everything from Jewish fighters to the caped/helmeted ones.I have no idea if this theory stands up but the Irish name for Cavan is An Cabhan so maybe that might be a link.
The Clan lost their status in the late 17th century when the senior members moved to the court of King James in France.Though the site of their castle at Moyne hall just outside Cavan still has some of the old castle built into it.
Hopefully the DNA might give us some positive answers.
The Galloglas are a fascinating subject that we know so little about.

Posted by: James Williams 4th Dec 2014, 09:51pm

QUOTE (JMcHarg @ 2nd Jul 2009, 07:49pm) *
Hi, i'm a McHarg from Scotland, there seems to be very little information on this surnames history (in Scotland) but i have read that McHarg, Meharg, and McHargue are all the same name and originate in Ireland. I've also read that McHarg's are rarely found outside of Galloway, my father and his family are from Glasgow.

My brother found a site where they were apparently doing DNA tests on McHarg's and found that every McHarg tested had the Niall of The Nine Hostages DNA.

My mother's family are Ross and i've heard they have an Irish connection too, so any information on McHarg and Ross in regards to Ireland would be much appreciated.

Try looking up the Graham Maharg connection from Scottland there you will find a very interesting story of how the Maharg's got their name. You can google the words Graham, Maharg. Maharg is Graham spelt backwards.

Posted by: Talisman 24th Dec 2014, 09:23pm

When discussing the origins of Scotland, the name Scotland, the Scottish people, there are a few historical points to bear in mind. Firstly, Scotland, before it was Scotland, was inhabited by mostly tribes with the common language of the European Gaul (Gk. Prytonii). This was the dominant language and culture of all of the country prior to the coming of the insular Celts from Antrim I.E. The Gaelic speakers, who had no common tongue with the then inhabitants; Picta, Daemoni, Selgovii etc. There is evidence of Gaelic speakers around Strathclyde prior to the Roman invasions. After the demise of Roman ascendancy and the native "Britons" the Angles and Saxons took over swathes of country around the present artificial borders.

The Viking came adding Norwegian blood and language to the mix. Consequently Scotland became known as the "Land of the four languages".

To speak of blood lines in this mix is to indulge in the "Myth of the Common Ancestor " so endearing to the Highland clans. I can reel of the clans and names of the clan chiefs who are ostensibly my ancestors ad nauseum, but it means nothing in the actuality of history's page.

There was a passage relating to a Scottish army in medieval times writing by a prelate scribe of the Norman / Anglican persuasion (obviously prejudiced) who described the Scottish invaders as a "Monsterous mongrel assemblage, comprising of Gaels, Gauls Danes, Germans and Angles". So in the mix of things to talk of Scots it much more accurate to talk of who we were and not of what we are now. I become dismissive of this "Bloodline" myth as I see no connection to myself as a MacIan or McKean than any of that name living in Canada Australia Swaziland or the West Indies.

We are like it or not "Aw Jock Thamson's bairns.

Posted by: J McAfee 15th Sep 2015, 10:16pm

My McAfee family is from the Isle of Islay and the old surname is McDuffee. It is interchangeable in both Scotland and Northern Ireland (McAfee - McDuffee). They were Presbyterian and farmers and said to have descended from Scots Coventanters. My 4th great grandfather was born on Islay abt. 1730 and moved to County Antrim, N. Ireland abt. 1750's with a friend McQuigg. They settled near Bushmills. McAfee is a highland clan and said to be part of the Siol Alpin. The emigrated to Wayne County, Ohio in June of 1838. Terminal SNP is FGC10125 (DNA).

Posted by: druidtree 3rd Sep 2016, 11:20pm

DNA points to the Scots of the west of Scotland are originally Irish!

http://thescotsirish.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/r-l21-haplogroup-and-scots-irish.html

Posted by: Patrick 20th Aug 2017, 01:14pm

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 27th Jul 2007, 12:40pm) *
Continuing with my last post, I have just been reading a website about the County Donegal surname O'Dochartaigh or Doherty. The website claims that the McCallions (MacAilins) of Donegal are of mixed ancestry. It says that some of the McCallions are related to the native Donegal O'Doherty family while the other McCallions are of Gallowglass origins. The website also says that the MacAilins/MacCailins of Galloglass origins came to Donegal from Argyll in the early 16th century and were probably related to the Campbells of Argyll. The reason given is that 'MacCailean Mor' has been the title used by the chief of the Campbells of Loch Awe, Argyll since the late 13th century.

Thanks for exploring this! Over the years I've heard that McCallions sometimes used Campbell as a name for traveling, and I've encountered a few online who have a record of this in their history. That would seem far-fetched to me if I didn't have, from my own family, a wedding announcement (1908) in which the bride's McCallion birthname (from Inishowen) is crossed out and "Campbell" written over it. All other records for her, her siblings, and her parents are as McCallion. At least one of her brothers or nephews later moved from Donegal to Scotland. Could all be unrelated, but it certainly is a strange thing to do to a wedding announcement.