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> Glasgow: Worst Schools In Britain?, City bottom of UK qualifications league
GG
post 20th Sep 2011, 09:06pm
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I would agree that the issue is a complex one, and, by definition, one which has no easy solution. I think poverty, especially relative poverty, i.e. inequality has a lot to do with the problems people in Glasgow face. As Dave mentioned, in terms of absolute poverty, even poor Glaswegians appear to be better off than many other groups worldwide, however, even so, they still suffer much worse. An example of this is that a boy born in Calton is expected to live, on average, to 54 years of age, some 28 years less than a boy born in Lenzie just few miles away. On a global scale, that Calton boy will die years before a boy born in India, where the average daily income is less than a 1 per day. Although relatively 'more affluent', Glaswegians are still suffering to a greater extent than people in Third World countries.

One of the biggest barriers to achievement in education is 'poverty of aspiration' where kids quickly lose the will to do well in education. I saw this especially in my north Glasgow schools when we moved from primary to secondary schools. One of the biggest problems was the widespread lack of empathy shown by teachers to pupils. I could see in the faces of the teachers at secondary school that they simply didn't want to be where they were – either in the school or in the area. The school was one of the 'worst' in Glasgow, and the area was in rapid decline industrially, economically and socially. One thing that has always stayed with me was how no teacher wanted to be stay beyond four o'clock; they were always eager to retrieve their cars from the protected compound and speed away. There were never any prize-givings or social events in the evening. I knew the area was poor, but to see the almost contempt which teachers had for the place was, I think, very damaging to many children who became aware of it.

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glasgow lass
post 20th Sep 2011, 09:27pm
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This is somewhat of what c/b has been saying in his post #32, it is very sad that some teachers have this kind of negative attatude toward certain children and it can be so crippling to many kids. Its a downright disgrace for any teacher to to show such snobbery.
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TeeHeeHee
post 20th Sep 2011, 09:28pm
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Back to John Bell of HeraldScotland ...
QUOTE
What would I do?
Clearing up the mess for illiterate addicts who choose to have children is not, or should not be, the school system’s task. Teachers have enough on their hands. Maintaining public libraries, or throwing laptops at people in dire need, will not restore Scottish education. Castigating Tory economic policies in a city dependent on the public realm makes plenty of sense, in its own right, but it will not solve this problem.

Money, contrary to the spirit of the age, will do that. I favour an old – these days horrifically expensive – solution: you get kept back. If you fail, you study again, and are taught again. In short, no-one is allowed to leave any school without a qualification, without demonstrable evidence of literacy, numeracy, or a useful skill. Isn’t that the law?

It would break every budget, of course. I would respond to that charge by asking after the sums being paid, right now, to ensure failure for a whole generation, and for generations yet to come.

The Idea of being kept back to study again was successful in RAF training schools and education sections.


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"Destiny is a good thing to accept when it's going your way. When it isn't, don't call it destiny; call it injustice, treachery, or simple bad luck.”
― Joseph Heller, God Knows
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mlconnelly
post 20th Sep 2011, 10:21pm
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Makes sense to me. Mary
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murphy
post 21st Sep 2011, 04:53am
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I do not think you can make poverty an excuse, I grew up in Glasgow in rhe 40s we were all poor in the east end of Glasgow, went to school with holes in the arms of sweaters, boys wore tackity boots. Could it be the children do not want to learn they are happy with their lives doing nothing constructive, I have read through all the answers and there are some very good ones, I like the one where the lady mention Teachers Aides I thinks that is a great Idea. These children need self esteem and to be taught work ethics., and then there would be a diference in their education. I am sure not all the children in these areas are wasters, instead of giving money to people who move from other countries and get money from the Government said them back to where they came and put the money in the School system for Scottish children and the advancement of our country.
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Melody
post 21st Sep 2011, 08:07am
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Most Asylum Seekers and Refugees have far higher aspirations that our children sadly. You probably would find it difficult to imagine some of the horrors these poor souls have faced and I know this from experience.
They come here often with no English they learn exceptionally quickly, so much so that it is quite staggering to observe. Their families are extremely ambitious for their children often indeed they are very well educated themselves.
To be honest some of our Scottish parents could take a lesson from these parents in what it is to be a good parent.
Please do not condemn people without any experience or knowledge of them. These children are far better off being integrated as quickly as possible and to be honest they can put our own to shame.

I hear young parents in particular actually using the worst of swear words to their tiny children in the street these days. Where does that show any self discipline never mind a good start and good example in life for our own infants? The duty of rearing a child does not lie with teachers it lies firmly with parents that is where discipline, respect and self reliance is taught. When they are of an age to go to school those lessons are already learnt or not as the case may be.

Family breakdown has much to answer for too in my opinion. Children need nurturing.
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Scotsman
post 21st Sep 2011, 11:48am
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Have not been on for a few days but I did enjoy reading through the replies to this interesting discussion. It seems that so many things are being done wrong with education and other things which are related to it in this city that I just wondered if anyone thinks there is anything that the city fathers are actually getting right regarding education?? Is it all doom and gloom.... or is there hope on the horizon??

I would agree with the many who say that the home life is important and that the role of the parents is the one which should prepare children for their time in schools but are we maybe asking too much of parents who have also been through the same system and been failed?? A vicious cycle perhaps and who can imagine the situation of what the children of todays children will be like in 20 years time??

I was one of the worn jumpers and tackity boots brigade but I also think that some teachers could have helped me better.... some were just far too strict and wanted you to shut up even when asking for honest help.
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Heather
post 21st Sep 2011, 12:47pm
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I was reading in one of todays newspapers that Teachers in cash-strapped schools are using their own money to buy basic classroom supplies.
Paper, pencils, ink, rulers & glue and those Teachers who can't afford it have to watch pupils go without.

Apparently school budgets have been cut by over 50% and schools are at breaking point.


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Heather.......I'm tartan. Alba gu Brath. Saor Alba
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wee davy
post 21st Sep 2011, 12:50pm
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QUOTE
Family breakdown has much to answer for too in my opinion. Children need nurturing.

An increasingly and predominately Secular and Godless Society only tends to encourage and support such negative outcomes.
The early breakdown of 'families' is most CERTAINLY a factor.
Not since before the war, have women 'looked after the nest', and the man went out to put meat (well in my case, beans on toast lol) on the table.

At the risk of being sent to Coventry, by 80% of the female population, it is
also a consequence of Equality.

THE most important factor, in nurturing children, is a mother's influence.
There is no stronger and essential ingredient to their development. What other results should we expect, when mothers are effectively FORCED to see their 'lot' as giving up quality time to their home, in turn for sufficient funds to run an adequate lifestyle?

In my view, women would do well to 'fight for the right' to remain at home in order to give tomorrow's children a fair 'crack'. I know however, this is not very 'PC' - not very 'modern thinking' - and a feminist's nightmare wink.gif

Please send all complaints to GG Admin (sorry Martin smile.gif )

wee davy


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wee davy
post 21st Sep 2011, 12:50pm
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QUOTE
Family breakdown has much to answer for too in my opinion. Children need nurturing.

An increasingly and predominately Secular and Godless Society only tends to encourage and support such negative outcomes.
The early breakdown of 'families' is most CERTAINLY a factor.
Not since before the war, have women 'looked after the nest', and the man went out to put meat (well in my case, beans on toast lol) on the table.

At the risk of being sent to Coventry, by 80% of the female population, it is
also a consequence of Equality.

THE most important factor, in nurturing children, is a mother's influence.
There is no stronger and essential ingredient to their development. What other results should we expect, when mothers are effectively FORCED to see their 'lot' as giving up quality time to their home, in turn for sufficient funds to run an adequate lifestyle?

In my view, women would do well to 'fight for the right' to remain at home in order to give tomorrow's children a fair 'crack'. I know however, this is not very 'PC' - not very 'modern thinking' - and a feminist's nightmare wink.gif

Please send all complaints to GG Admin (sorry Martin smile.gif )

wee davy


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adversus solem ne loquitor


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Melody
post 21st Sep 2011, 01:08pm
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laugh.gif Davy jist to make it worse ye said it twice. laugh.gif It's ok ye can lift yer head.

To a certain degree I completely agree with you. Personally I chose to stay at home when my children were small, to be honest there was no way I would have left them with anyone else in this world. My choice, and the thing is I did have a choice, we had to cut our coat to suit our cloth but it was completely worth it to me even although I never really enjoyed being at home all the time.

Poor young ones today have little or no choice Davy or at least they perceive themselves to have no option but to go out to work. The churches turned into dance halls, it says it all really. Divorce went from being a kind of disgrace to being perfectly acceptable. That's if anybody bothers anymore about being married. I don't know what the answers are Davy. So much has changed so it really comes as no surprise that children grow up very differently these days. The product of all this Godless Society as you call it is what the poor teacher has to contend with in class.

Yes, Heather the personal purchase of materials has gone on for decades it's possibly going to get worse.
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Alex MacPhee
post 21st Sep 2011, 01:11pm
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QUOTE (wee davy @ 21st Sep 2011, 02:36pm) *
The early breakdown of 'families' is most CERTAINLY a factor.
Not since before the war, have women 'looked after the nest', and the man went out to put meat (well in my case, beans on toast lol) on the table.

I'm not sure it's as simple as that, certainly if one is also to argue that poverty leads to poor educational attainment.

In my case, our parents had little money to spare, with six children to feed and clothe. My mother went out to work to supplement the household income, but it didn't lead to a "breakdown of the family" with consequential effects on our schooling. She went out to work precisely to ensure that we had all the support they could provide both domestically and scholastically.

My wife went out to work for similar reasons when we had a family to bring up. My daughter is now a teacher and my son a police officer. This does not fit the nineteen-fifties sex roles pattern, and it was not an uncommon thing, either among my parents' neighbours, or mine.


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Melody
post 21st Sep 2011, 01:15pm
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Alex can I ask? What qualities would you say that your mother possessed that are missing in today's young mothers? This could possibly answer the question as to what's wrong or at least missing today.
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Alex MacPhee
post 21st Sep 2011, 02:22pm
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Gosh, listing my mother's qualities -- what's the word limit on posts?

She was a hard worker, and like my father, her family was central to her life, something she inherited from her own parents. She wanted her children to have a better start to life than she had, so she did housekeeping for others, cleaning, washing, and the like. Even when the need was gone, she carried on working, moving on from physical work to clerical work.

She'd help me with my homework (to make sure it got done) even where she had no knowledge at all of the subject. I remember her drilling me in French vocabulary, reading out the English words in the list, and having a good stab at recognising the French from my pronunciation. With English homework, if there was something in a reading passage I didn't understand, and she didn't know the words, she'd tell me, "Just read on a bit more, and you'll work it out from the context!" Invariably, she was right. By jove, there are times when I could have seen her far enough, when I'd rather be out playing with my chums and she insisted on homework being done first, but I look back on it differently now.

Although we never felt the want of anything, they had little money to spare, things were tight, and I was twenty years old before they first had a family holiday away. My parents saved up for a long time for that holiday.

I look back on them now, both gone, and think about what they achieved. I earned three times what my parents did, bringing up two children, where they brought up six. The magnitude of what they did now overwhelms me. They never left a bean, but what they did leave was a family and a treasure store of memories, and once a year (it's this weekend coming), we all get together, from all parts of the UK, to visit their grave and remember them, and have a marvellous time re-telling old stories and anecdotes, then the traditional toast to their memory. We call the gathering One Foot in the Grave, for reasons that may appear disrespectful if I try to explain them, but which would have had our mother howling with laughter.

I guess what is coming out of this is that it is not money, or the lack of it, in our case at least, that has the biggest influence on how we do at school, but a combination of the school itself and the support and attitudes at home. I am loth to suggest that my experience is a template for a solution to the issue being discussed, but I don't think, either, that my anecdotal experience is unusual.


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Melody
post 21st Sep 2011, 02:47pm
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Thank you Alex, you describe wonderful parents there. Parents who held loving admirable qualities, qualities which I recognise in my own parents and grandparents and my husband's parents and grandparents. They really devoted their lives to us. No matter what the family came first. We were very lucky. Thank you again.

Poverty alone I know is not the soul cause of the lack of the above good qualities. There is also a poverty of another kind, a poverty of spirit. I don't seem to be able to put my finger on one thing that has caused this kind of malaise we see these days. Maybe it's a mixture of things. People seem to have lost their way somehow.



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