Glasgow Guide Home

Whats On Glasgow Guide
  Glasgow What's On


    Glasgow Reviews


    Glasgow Gallery


      Glasgow Links
Discuss | Guestbook | Postcard | News | Weather | Feedback | Search | About | What's New
Glasgow Guide Discussion Boards

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )                >> View Today's Topics <<

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Food For Thought, For the people who cant admit they have always been wrong
Dave Grieve
post 22nd Feb 2015, 09:33am
Post #1


Mega City Key Holder
******
Posts: 3,461
Joined: 22nd Sep 2010
From: Umhlanga Rocks South Africa
Member No.: 9,005
Food for thought for those people who saw the White South African Government as being the devil incarnate.
All the figures below are mainly from the 1980's the decade before Mandela came out of jail

In 1988 the monthly income of blacks per capita was R352 per month in South Africa – Malawi and Mozambique less than R20 per month.

In 1988 black people could undergo a complicated heart valve surgery for just more than $ 1 while black Americans had to pay $ 15,000. In a Pretoria hospital between 2000 and 3000 of these surgeries were done per year.

From 1955 to 1984 the number of black scholars increased from 35000 to 1 096 000.

In 1988 71% of the adult SA black population could read and write versus 47% in Kenya, 38% in Egypt and 34% in Nigeria.

In 1985 there were 42 000 black students enrolled at SA universities.

In 1988 There were over 2300 registered firms, 1000 taxi operators and 50,000 car owners in Soweto.

South Africa provided training for the airline personnel of Swaziland, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Zaire and the Comores.

In 1979, when the train traffic to the Malawian capital Lilongwe was interrupted by rebels, SA sent transport aircrafts with fuel drums to keep their economy going.

In 1986, 80,000 black businessmen from Africa visited Cape Town to finalize business deals.

South Africa provided in the grain needs of its neighboring countries and wider. In 1980, Zambia received 250 000 tons of maize, Mozambique 150,000 tons maize and 50 000 tons of wheat, Kenya 128,000 tons maize and Zimbabwe 100 000 tons. Other countries that also received South African grain were Angola, Ivory Coast, Malawi, Mauritius, Tanzania and Zaire.

At least 12 countries of Africa, according to the “Argus African News Service” were so dependent on SA grain that a total ban on imports and exports would have destroyed them economically.

About half of Lesotho’s male population worked in South Africa, about 146,000 in 1983, and earned R280,6 million which was about half of Lesotho’s treasury.

IN 1988 SA produced more electrical energy than Italy, as much crude steel as France, more wheat than Canada, more wool than the US, more wine than Greece and more fish than Great Britain.

South African trains ran on more rail lines than in West Germany, carried more passengers than Switzerland, had a better punctuality record than Austria and exported car parts to 100 countries.

We were accused by the world that we were a police state:
In 1988 SA had 1.4 officers for every 1,000 people while the world figure weres as follows: UK 2.2, Israel 3.5, New York 4.3, and Moscow 10 per 1000.

In South Africa there were 16,292 white policemen versus 19 177 non-white.

We were accused of killing our political offenders:
In 1979-1980 there were no deaths in SA prisons. In the previous 10 years 37 died versus 274 in the same period in Wales and England.

We are accused that we payed starvation wages:
In 1974, the average monthly income of black workers in South Africa was $ 127 versus the $ 140 in the US, the richest country in the world.

We were accused that we locked up thousands of political prisoners:
In 1983, 127 such prisoners were confined in SA and 11 whose movements were limited.
A further 32 were under house arrest.

http://southafricatoday.net/
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Betsy2009
post 22nd Feb 2015, 09:48am
Post #2

Mega City Key Holder
******
Posts: 3,292
Joined: 21st Jun 2013
Member No.: 25,701
There's good and bad in every country but the good doesn't sell newspapers.

These will be the same people who think that Mandela was a saint, forgetting his violent past and what got him thrown in jail in the first place.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ktv
post 22nd Feb 2015, 11:05am
Post #3


Mega City Key Holder
******
Posts: 3,314
Joined: 31st Mar 2009
Member No.: 6,730
['Dave Grieve' date='22nd Feb 2015, 09:50am' post='3694620']
Food for thought for those people who saw the White South African Government as being the devil incarnate.
All the figures below are mainly from the 1980's the decade before Mandela came out of jail

QUOTE
In 1988 the monthly income of blacks per capita was R352 per month in South Africa – Malawi and Mozambique less than R20 per month.

so it it was more than Malawi?....what was it in comparison to "white" wages per capita?
QUOTE
In 1988 black people could undergo a complicated heart valve surgery for just more than $ 1 while black Americans had to pay $ 15,000. In a Pretoria hospital between 2000 and 3000 of these surgeries were done per year.
so they charged visitors more...means nothing
QUOTE
From 1955 to 1984 the number of black scholars increased from 35000 to 1 096 000.

so 76% of the population only had 1000000 scholars....what was the % of white scholars to population?

QUOTE
In 1988 71% of the adult SA black population could read and write versus 47% in Kenya, 38% in Egypt and 34% in Nigeria.

so they could read more in comparison to other places...means nothing
QUOTE
In 1985 there were 42 000 black students enrolled at SA universities.

out of 75% of the population...hardly a great number is it?

QUOTE
In 1988 There were over 2300 registered firms, 1000 taxi operators and 50,000 car owners in Soweto.

so? still living in shanty towns unable to vote in an apartheid regime
QUOTE
South Africa provided training for the airline personnel of Swaziland, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Zaire and the Comores.
so
QUOTE
In 1979, when the train traffic to the Malawian capital Lilongwe was interrupted by rebels, SA sent transport aircrafts with fuel drums to keep their economy going.
they didn't send any fuel into the shanty towns to keep the heating or lights on did they though?
QUOTE
In 1986, 80,000 black businessmen from Africa visited Cape Town to finalize business deals.

so?...they still couldn't vote could they?

QUOTE
South Africa provided in the grain needs of its neighboring countries and wider. In 1980, Zambia received 250 000 tons of maize, Mozambique 150,000 tons maize and 50 000 tons of wheat, Kenya 128,000 tons maize and Zimbabwe 100 000 tons. Other countries that also received South African grain were Angola, Ivory Coast, Malawi, Mauritius, Tanzania and Zaire.
did they manage to sent some to their own people though?
QUOTE
At least 12 countries of Africa, according to the “Argus African News Service” were so dependent on SA grain that a total ban on imports and exports would have destroyed them economically.
while their own people lived in poverty
QUOTE
About half of Lesotho’s male population worked in South Africa, about 146,000 in 1983, and earned R280,6 million which was about half of Lesotho’s treasury.
could they vote though?
QUOTE
IN 1988 SA produced more electrical energy than Italy, as much crude steel as France, more wheat than Canada, more wool than the US, more wine than Greece and more fish than Great Britain.
so? didn't help the locals much did it?
QUOTE
South African trains ran on more rail lines than in West Germany, carried more passengers than Switzerland, had a better punctuality record than Austria and exported car parts to 100 countries.
neither did that
QUOTE
We were accused by the world that we were a police state:
In 1988 SA had 1.4 officers for every 1,000 people while the world figure weres as follows: UK 2.2, Israel 3.5, New York 4.3, and Moscow 10 per 1000.
id doubt how accurate that is but anyway the others didn't run about shooting and imprisoning people due to racist laws as much as SA did

QUOTE
In South Africa there were 16,292 white policemen versus 19 177 non-white.

so?

QUOTE
We were accused of killing our political offenders:
In 1979-1980 there were no deaths in SA prisons. In the previous 10 years 37 died versus 274 in the same period in Wales and England.
simply made up.....did England and wales really have 274 political prisoners die in prison in a year?...and so SA managed not to kill in...in that one year...hardly something to boast about
QUOTE
We are accused that we payed starvation wages:
In 1974, the average monthly income of black workers in South Africa was $ 127 versus the $ 140 in the US, the richest country in the world.
means nothing unless you show a comparison on every day prices
QUOTE
We were accused that we locked up thousands of political prisoners:
In 1983, 127 such prisoners were confined in SA and 11 whose movements were limited.
A further 32 were under house arrest.

so not thousands just a couple of hundred THAT YEAR...what about all the other years?

http://southafricatoday.net/ also says halal meat funds terrorism and their are no peaceful Muslims wacko.gif


no SA wasn't the devil incarnate and the ANC where not the saviours of the country but trying to excuse their apartheid state and racist laws by spouting we had more lekky than Italy and more fish than the uk is really just nonsense mate
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Betsy2009
post 22nd Feb 2015, 11:26am
Post #4

Mega City Key Holder
******
Posts: 3,292
Joined: 21st Jun 2013
Member No.: 25,701
ktv, there's no harm in a man trying to see some good in his adopted country.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ktv
post 22nd Feb 2015, 11:30am
Post #5


Mega City Key Holder
******
Posts: 3,314
Joined: 31st Mar 2009
Member No.: 6,730
I agree Besty and think SA always had/has a lot going for it but you cant ignore the terrible things that happened there simply because of some random figures
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dylan
post 22nd Feb 2015, 11:44am
Post #6

Mega City Key Holder
******
Posts: 4,494
Joined: 27th Oct 2006
From: Glasgow
Member No.: 3,936
The world at large would appear to have a better opinion of Nelson Mandela ?


--------------------
You don't need a weatherman
To know which way the wind blows
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
*Glasgow Guest*
post 22nd Feb 2015, 01:38pm
Post #7






Things were so good for black South Africans under Apartheid in the 1980's that in 1986 the US and the UK imposed sanctions on the country.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
benny
post 22nd Feb 2015, 07:00pm
Post #8


Mega City Key Holder
******
Posts: 1,734
Joined: 26th Jan 2010
Member No.: 8,059
It would be easy, but tiresome, to refute the relevance of many of the point raised. The facts are that South Africa under apartheid was a racist state, and not only a racist state, but a brutal racist state. That is fact, no matter which way you cut it.
Nelson Mandela's violent actions were a reaction to the state's violent actions. Would anyone condemn the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto from striking back at their Nazi persecutors? No more should they condemn Mandela and the ANC for striking back at their persecutors.

White South Africans built their prosperity on the backs of the blacks, and even if the blacks did share that prosperity in some small way, that is no reason for trying to portray the white supremacists as great guys. They weren't.


--------------------
Derea derego fortibus es in aro
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dave Grieve
post 22nd Feb 2015, 07:19pm
Post #9


Mega City Key Holder
******
Posts: 3,461
Joined: 22nd Sep 2010
From: Umhlanga Rocks South Africa
Member No.: 9,005
In 1988 the monthly income of blacks per capita was R352 per month in South Africa – Malawi and Mozambique less than R20 per month.
"so it it was more than Malawi?....what was it in comparison to "white" wages per capita?"
AT THAT TIME MY WAGES WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SAME AS IN SCOTLAND WITH A MUCH LOWER COST OF LIVING

In 1988 black people could undergo a complicated heart valve surgery for just more than $ 1 while black Americans had to pay $ 15,000. In a Pretoria hospital between 2000 and 3000 of these surgeries were done per year.
"so they charged visitors more...means nothing."
IT MEANS THAT I AS A PERSON LIVING LOCALLY WITH A PRIVATE MEDICAL AID INSURANCE WOULD HAVE PAID TOP DOLLAR FOR THE SAME OPERATION

From 1955 to 1984 the number of black scholars increased from 35000 to 1 096 000.
"so 76% of the population only had 1000000 scholars....what was the % of white scholars to population?"
PROBABLY 100 PERCENT, SO WHAT?

In 1988 71% of the adult SA black population could read and write versus 47% in Kenya, 38% in Egypt and 34% in Nigeria.
"so they could read more in comparison to other places...means nothing"
TYPICAL MEALYMOUTHED LIBERAL NON ANSWER

In 1985 there were 42 000 black students enrolled at SA universities.
"out of 75% of the population...hardly a great number is it?"
A FANTASTIC ACHIEVEMENT EVEN BY TODAY'S STANDARDS

In 1988 There were over 2300 registered firms, 1000 taxi operators and 50,000 car owners in Soweto.
"so? still living in shanty towns unable to vote in an apartheid regime"
THERE WERE NO SHANTY TOWNS IN SOUTH AFRICA UNDER THE APARTIED GOVERNMENT, ONLY UNDER TODAYS BLACK REGIME WILL YOU FIND THEM

South Africa provided training for the airline personnel of Swaziland, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Zaire and the Comores.
"So"
TYPICAL MEALYMOUTHED LIBERAL NON ANSWER

In 1979, when the train traffic to the Malawian capital Lilongwe was interrupted by rebels, SA sent transport aircrafts with fuel drums to keep their economy going.
"they didn't send any fuel into the shanty towns to keep the heating or lights on did they though?"
SOUTH AFRICANS ARE LUCKY IN THAT WE DONT NEED HEATERS FOR TEN MONTHS OF THE YEAR WE ALSO HAVE PORTS AND HARBOURS UNLIKE LANDLOCKED MALAWI

In 1986, 80,000 black businessmen from Africa visited Cape Town to finalize business deals.

"so?...they still couldn't vote could they?"
YOUR NOT REALLY THAT IGNORANT OF INTERNATIONAL LAW ARE YOU?

South Africa provided in the grain needs of its neighboring countries and wider. In 1980, Zambia received 250 000 tons of maize, Mozambique 150,000 tons maize and 50 000 tons of wheat, Kenya 128,000 tons maize and Zimbabwe 100 000 tons. Other countries that also received South African grain were Angola, Ivory Coast, Malawi, Mauritius, Tanzania and Zaire.
"did they manage to sent some to their own people though?"
UNDER THE APARTHEID GOVERNMENT BASIC FOODS LIKE MAIZE MEAL WERE HEAVILY SUBSIDISED UNLIKE TODAYS GOVERNMENT THAT ALLOWS MARKET FORCES TO DICTATE PRICE EVEN TO THE POOREST SECTORS OF SOCIETY

At least 12 countries of Africa, according to the “Argus African News Service” were so dependent on SA grain that a total ban on imports and exports would have destroyed them economically.
"while their own people lived in poverty"
UNDER THE APARTHEID GOVERNMENT SOUTH AFRICAN BLACKS ENJOYED THE HIGHEST STANDARD OF LIVING IN AFRICA

About half of Lesotho’s male population worked in South Africa, about 146,000 in 1983, and earned R280,6 million which was about half of Lesotho’s treasury.
could they vote though?
ARE YOU STUPID ENOUGH TO ALLOW THE FRENCH TO VOTE IN THE UK ELECTIONS?

IN 1988 SA produced more electrical energy than Italy, as much crude steel as France, more wheat than Canada, more wool than the US, more wine than Greece and more fish than Great Britain.
"so? didn't help the locals much did it?"
IT PROVIDED THEM WITH JOBS


South African trains ran on more rail lines than in West Germany, carried more passengers than Switzerland, had a better punctuality record than Austria and exported car parts to 100 countries.
"neither did that"
?

We were accused by the world that we were a police state:
In 1988 SA had 1.4 officers for every 1,000 people while the world figure weres as follows: UK 2.2, Israel 3.5, New York 4.3, and Moscow 10 per 1000.
"id doubt how accurate that is but anyway the others didn't run about shooting and imprisoning people due to racist laws as much as SA did" TYPICAL MEALYMOUTHED LIBERAL NON ANSWER

QUOTE
In South Africa there were 16,292 white policemen versus 19 177 non-white.

So?
TYPICAL MEALYMOUTHED LIBERAL NON ANSWER


We were accused of killing our political offenders:
In 1979-1980 there were no deaths in SA prisons. In the previous 10 years 37 died versus 274 in the same period in Wales and England.
"simply made up.....did England and wales really have 274 political prisoners die in prison in a year?...and so SA managed not to kill in...in that one year...hardly something to boast about" TYPICAL MEALYMOUTHED LIBERAL NON ANSWER, IF YOU CANT DISPROVE IT, DEFLECT ATTENTION AND DENY, DENY, DENY, WHERE DOES IT SAY POLITICAL PRISONERS

We are accused that we payed starvation wages:
In 1974, the average monthly income of black workers in South Africa was $ 127 versus the $ 140 in the US, the richest country in the world.
means nothing unless you show a comparison on every day prices
WE ARE NOT ALL AS YOUNG AND INEXPERIENCED AS YOU, EVEN TODAY I EXPERIENCE A MUCH HIGHER STANDARD OF LIVING WITH A MUCH SMALLER POUND INCOME

We were accused that we locked up thousands of political prisoners:
In 1983, 127 such prisoners were confined in SA and 11 whose movements were limited.
A further 32 were under house arrest.
"so not thousands just a couple of hundred THAT YEAR...what about all the other years? "
NOT AS MANY AS YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE OUT AS ANYBODY WITH A MODICUM OF INTELLIGENCE WILL UNDERSTAND

"http://southafricatoday.net/ also says halal meat funds terrorism and their are no peaceful Muslims"

TYPICAL MEALYMOUTHED LIBERAL NON ANSWER, IF YOU CANT DISPROVE IT, DEFLECT ATTENTION AND DENY, DENY, DENY
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
john.mcn
post 22nd Feb 2015, 09:38pm
Post #10


Mega City Key Holder
******
Posts: 5,887
Joined: 30th Mar 2008
Member No.: 5,545
QUOTE (benny @ 22nd Feb 2015, 07:17pm) *
Nelson Mandela's violent actions were a reaction to the state's violent actions. Would anyone condemn the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto from striking back at their Nazi persecutors? No more should they condemn Mandela and the ANC for striking back at their persecutors.



Would you support the actions of the IRA during the 70's and 80's? Pretty much the same argument imho.


--------------------
“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”
Mikhail Gorbachev
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Betsy2009
post 22nd Feb 2015, 10:23pm
Post #11

Mega City Key Holder
******
Posts: 3,292
Joined: 21st Jun 2013
Member No.: 25,701
When Mandela started acting more like Gandhi - progress was made.
When the IRA sat round a table with the UK government - progress was made.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dave Grieve
post 23rd Feb 2015, 08:12am
Post #12


Mega City Key Holder
******
Posts: 3,461
Joined: 22nd Sep 2010
From: Umhlanga Rocks South Africa
Member No.: 9,005
QUOTE (Glasgow Guest @ 22nd Feb 2015, 03:55pm) *
Things were so good for black South Africans under Apartheid in the 1980's that in 1986 the US and the UK imposed sanctions on the country.


The only reason sanctions were imposed was because with the fall of communism in the Soviet Union, SA was no longer needed to act as a defense against the spread of communism in Africa and so could be sacrificed, if the Soviet Union still existed then the Apartheid government would have continued.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
*Glasgow Guest*
post 23rd Feb 2015, 08:30am
Post #13






QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 23rd Feb 2015, 08:29am) *
The only reason sanctions were imposed was because with the fall of communism in the Soviet Union, SA was no longer needed to act as a defense against the spread of communism in Africa and so could be sacrificed, if the Soviet Union still existed then the Apartheid government would have continued.

This is an argument I have heard before and I totally reject it.

Please remember that so great was the world's abhorrence of Apartheid that South Africa was expelled from the United Nations in 1974 and was not re-admitted until twenty years later.

You might also want to remember that sporting and cultural boycotts of South Africa had been in effect from the 1960's.

I find it amazing that in the twenty-first century anyone would dare to defend the obscenity of apartheid in South Africa, a system that was, and remains, morally indefensible.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
zascot
post 23rd Feb 2015, 09:22am
Post #14


Super City Key Holder
******
Posts: 994
Joined: 1st Nov 2003
From: johannesburg south africa
Member No.: 612
I can assure you through personal experience that the sanctions did not have much effect as the governments imposing the sanctions turned a blind I to there citizens dealing with our country. I traveled around the world on business and sanctions were never discussed. I am a director of a large industrial manufacturing company with licence and manufacturing agreements with companies in 9 different countries and we have never had a sanction problem. Money is the international conscience and if you have gold you can get what you want.


--------------------
Take only photos. Leave only footprints. Kill only time.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
*Glasgow Guest*
post 23rd Feb 2015, 09:49am
Post #15






QUOTE (zascot @ 23rd Feb 2015, 09:39am) *
I can assure you through personal experience that the sanctions did not have much effect as the governments imposing the sanctions turned a blind I to there citizens dealing with our country. I traveled around the world on business and sanctions were never discussed. I am a director of a large industrial manufacturing company with licence and manufacturing agreements with companies in 9 different countries and we have never had a sanction problem. Money is the international conscience and if you have gold you can get what you want.

Is that supposed to be some kind of justification for the social evil that was apartheid?

I find it incredible that in the twenty-first century we still have those who would defend the indefensible.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Fast ReplyReply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 14th Dec 2018

All material in the site Glasgow Guide is copyright of the Glasgow Guide Organisation. This material is for your own private use only, and no part of the site may be reproduced, amended, modified, copied, or transmitted to third parties, by any means whatsoever without the prior written permission of the copyright owner. All rights reserved.

Glasgow Hotels: book cheap hotels in Glasgow online now.