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Glasgow Boards/Forums _ Glasgow News Blog _ Oops ... We've Lost (most Of) A Tram!

Posted by: GG 31st Jan 2011, 11:23pm

Bewildered bosses at Glasgow Life, the company charged with running Glasgow's museums, have been forced to admit that they have lost the complete front section of an historic Glasgow Standard tram. The "beautifully restored" piece of history had been donated to the city's museums in 1975 by tram enthusiast, Dr Ian Macdougall, after it was given to him by his father.

The news of the gigantic loss comes less than a week after the same musuem bosses admitted that 84 valuable works of art had vanished over the years from under their noses.

In addition to the loss of Dr Macdougall's lovingly restored tram section, including driving gear, Glasgow Life has also admitted that it cannot find other priceless exhibits donated to the city by the same veteran Glaswegian collector. The additional lost artefacts include boxes of tramcar drivers' timeboards, old tram tickets and approximately 50 rolls of unique colour film of the trams running in Glasgow's streets in 1960s.


A Glasgow Standard tram.
A visibly upset Dr Macdougall, who is adamant that he will never again donate anything to Glasgow museums, said:
QUOTE
"I am devastated ... I had no space to keep [the tram section] at my home and it seemed the right thing to do. I am very upset the films are missing too. I felt I was giving something back to the city, they were very important to me."

A spokesman for Glasgow Life, who admitted that previous storage arrangements were "far from satisfactory", said:
QUOTE
"Today, we have just three secure storage facilities, including the 20 million Glasgow Museums Resource Centre in Nitshill, which is home to one million objects."

GG.

Posted by: Heather 31st Jan 2011, 11:35pm

Dr. MacDougall has every right to be angry.

I can hardly credit the amout of valuable items this lot at Glasgow Life have lost. A right lot of clowns.

It makes me wonder how honest they or the employess working in Glasgow Life are.
Well lets face it, these lost items did not grow feet and walk out the place.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 31st Jan 2011, 11:39pm

It is called Looting and Plundering anywhere else.

Posted by: Old Sailor 1st Feb 2011, 12:15am

At the risk of defining myself as an old fogey, I am often saddened by the lacking efficiency of so called museum curators and their ilk. Is it just that people no longer care or see value in preserving artifacts or recording history. I can cite two examples of this deficiency, the first was when I was looking for old picture frames and visited a second hand store. The proprietor showed me a bin full of old frames which had been sent to his store and among them were some with old photos intact. I came upon one which had a picture of an old soldier, circa WW1 and when I enquired of its origin I was told that "it was just something that people dump all the time". No family interest, no sentiment, no more! The second was on visiting a home yard sale and seeing a box marked "Miscellaneous Junk...help yourself..No Cost" and as I rummaged through the box I came across a rack of Medals which were easy for me to identify since as WW2 Veteran I hold similar decorations, the War Medal, Atlantic Star with France and Germany (D-Day) Clasp, Italy Star and others including a Long Service Medal with SEAC Bar. I asked the lady of the house who they belonged to and she replied, "I don't know, we brought them from my grandmother's house afer she died and they have just been lying around..you can have them..no cost". I pondered whether I should stop and tell her that the cost of these medals was paid for by someone who survived a living hell, like I and many of my comrades (who are fewer and fewer as the days pass) did in those years, seventy years ago, but I didn't. Maybe I am just and old fogey!

Posted by: norrie123 1st Feb 2011, 12:21am

Thats a poor show, how the heck do you lose part of a tram
The films, pity the guy didn't have them copied, thats a great loss to all of Glasgow.
Bye for now, norrie

Posted by: farci 1st Feb 2011, 12:48am

It's a lot worse than this.

Last week Glasgow Life admitted that ten paintings in total have been stolen from the stores of Glasgow Life's museums and art galleries with another 74 believed to have gone missing. It is understood this is just - as they say - the tip of the iceberg with more revelations to follow.

Upsetting as the tram incident is to the donor, Glasgow City Council and its ALEOs have consistently failed to account for property, known as Common Good assets, gifted to the city's residents. Over the last 30 years assets worth many tens of millions of pounds have been wrongly accounted for and 'lost'. The last major example of this was when campaigners forced the Council to restore Pollok Park to the Common Good Asset register after it had been, er, omitted. Expect to see more headlines about this over the next few months.

The Council was instructed by the Scottish Government in 2007 to account for missing items but has failed to do so. The government watchdog - Audit Scotland - has refused to bark.

Posted by: wheeghee 1st Feb 2011, 12:53am

Got an old flattened penny that i put on the caur lines 1960 @ the Glasgow Cross last night of the caurs. mad.gif

Posted by: The Callands Rebel 1st Feb 2011, 01:00am

I, swear, if I didn't know better, without reading of these traveties in Glasgow, one would think you were in the USA the way our artifacts, too, disappear.

More than an apology is warrented here, perhaps a job loss or two or three of the hierarchy in the Museum!

Pounds cannot replace such a loss, but taken the Pound with making the head knockers redundant, well, its a start towards an apology.

Confederately

Jerry in Occupied Virginia by Union force

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 1st Feb 2011, 01:02am

Old Sailor asks, Is it just that people no longer care or see value in preserving artifacts or recording history.?
When my son was born in 1970, we lived in a house the garden of which was at a height above ground level and accessed by about seven steps. I knew a guy who owned a derelict old mansion and asked him if I could salvage some wood to build a ramp so my wife could push the baby's pram up to the garden level. While foraging around the old house for the best wood I found an old leather satchel of the type that would be held by a waist belt. The satchel had a masonic emblem embossed on the front. In the satchel were many old letters from either WW1 or perhaps earlier. The letters were from a son of the family who related that cousin so-and-so had fallen in a particular battle and stories of one battle and another with losses of young men who were either related or known to the family.
There was also mention of a girl or two in the nursing corps.
Reading the letters made me feel a bit guilty as if I was invading into someone's grief but I knew I had a historical record in my hands.
Many years later, while going through my divorce and sorting things out that I would be taking with me I asked my wife if she knew what had happened to the satchel; which I'd stored in the attic with my old RAF training notes.
She'd thrown them out with lots of other rubbish in the attic.
I could have throttled her.

Posted by: chinscot 1st Feb 2011, 06:22am

It is a sad day when part of your history is gone, will not be replaced I enjoyed going through the museum I think there should be a appology to the good Dr McDougall is in order.

Posted by: beth 1st Feb 2011, 07:01am

Know it's a bit off thread, but in our news this morning 17 BMWs were stolen from a car showroom that is situated right next door to Durban's main police station, so nothing surprises me. I think though that the donor is owed a great big apology, mind you nothing can replace stolen history.

Posted by: *duinemor* 1st Feb 2011, 08:19am

I'm just amazed that there are two people in the poll, at the time of typing, who think Dr McDougall is NOT due an apology. Perhaos they work for Glasgow Museums.

Posted by: Jupiter 1st Feb 2011, 09:44am

I think the Museums "High heid yins" are dissembling on this issue.When does a loss become a theft?
If they have checked all their estate and there is not trace of the items concerned then clearly the items have had some assistance in getting through the back door.In this case they have a clear obligation and the entire circumstances should be reported to the police as a matter of urgency.
The Curator has a duty of care for the artefacts entrusted to the museum and if they have walked on his watch maybe he should consider his/her position and do likewise.


Posted by: mlconnelly 1st Feb 2011, 10:13am

I agree Jupiter but why should he be given the option to walk. If you or I "lost" something valuable or important at work we would be sacked without question.

Posted by: ashfield 1st Feb 2011, 10:19am

I admit to being a bit bewildered about this, how the heck do you lose something this size? The smaller paintings that were stolen I understand, the lack of security is a concern but there are always folk who will find a way to steal stuff. What do you do with the front of a tram (unless you've got the rest stashed somewhere)?

I suppose they've checked the Barras rolleyes.gif

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 1st Feb 2011, 10:41am

QUOTE (ashfield @ 1st Feb 2011, 09:57am) *
I admit to being a bit bewildered about this, how the heck do you lose something this size? ...

I suppose they've checked the Barras rolleyes.gif

I remember years ago doing a contract at British Leyland in Birmingham where a gang of workers had pilfered enough parts to build 12 Range Rovers in the privacy of a home garage.
Where there's a will ... wink.gif

Posted by: greta 1st Feb 2011, 10:44am

I am not surprised at doctor MacDougall being angry about this, I would be surprised if he wasnt. You would expect people who are in charge of such valuable items to take the utmost care of them. What are these people being paid for ? :: to be incompetent? For goodness sake it is about time that people in charge of Glasgow took responsability for their actions and became accountable.

Posted by: serabash 1st Feb 2011, 10:50am

QUOTE (Jupiter @ 1st Feb 2011, 09:22am) *
I think the Museums "High heid yins" are dissembling on this issue.When does a loss become a theft?
If they have checked all their estate and there is not trace of the items concerned then clearly the items have had some assistance in getting through the back door.In this case they have a clear obligation and the entire circumstances should be reported to the police as a matter of urgency.
The Curator has a duty of care for the artefacts entrusted to the museum and if they have walked on his watch maybe he should consider his/her position and do likewise.

Totally agree Jupiter but don't think they should be given the chance to walk I think they should be jailed, along with the bankers the MP's and all the other people in privileged positions that see fit to abuse their postions.

Posted by: benny 1st Feb 2011, 10:55am

Ah had a look oan the Glasgowlife website. Surprise,surprise, there's nae mention of "missing" exhibits amidst aw the usual guff aboot how well they' serve the people of Glesga. Even when ah type "missing tram exhibits" intae their search engine, there are nae results forthcoming.
Ah think the Doc who donated the material should no only get an apology, he should get financial compensation as well - preferably comin frae the salaries of the dumplins who run this outfit.

Posted by: *stanza* 1st Feb 2011, 11:31am

So - these items have not been lost, they have in all probability been stolen.

Surely then it is a matter for the police - has it been reported to them as a potential crime, and if not why not?

Posted by: Lennox 1st Feb 2011, 01:13pm

QUOTE (ashfield @ 1st Feb 2011, 09:57am) *
how the heck do you lose something this size?

Ash, I was just about to ask the same thing . It is a disgrace some one or several someones should be fired, I would have been if I lost some thing that imporant

Posted by: Dylan 1st Feb 2011, 01:39pm

Has anyone had a look in Embra ?

Posted by: bugatti 1st Feb 2011, 01:43pm

Thief is a thief is a thief, so take the lot of them as not just ONE person be responsible for removing these items of not only irreplaceable items, but also expensive too. So to see the cure of this diseased lot fire them ALL and hire a security team and a few workers to maintain the upkeep of them. Search them all as they leave the building at a controlled exit and that exit is used by ALL persons entering and leaving the premises. There is nothing worse than a lazy bunch of thieves that are working in a probably high paid unionized environment and they think they can get away with it. Where was the supervisory element on this so called controlled area? Or were they in on the resale of the stolen goods too?. Like I said, FIRE THE WHOLE LOT AND SEARCH THEIR HOMES AND ALSO SEE INTO THEIR BANK ACCOUNTS OVER THE YEARS TO SEE how much extra pay the got from the sale of the items too. mad.gif

Posted by: Jupiter 1st Feb 2011, 01:50pm

Dylan,love it.That notion occurred to me as I was driving home.They must be hot suspects as it looks like the only way they are getting any sort of tram system.
Joop.

Posted by: Dylan 1st Feb 2011, 02:16pm

Thank you Joop.

Praise indeed.

Posted by: Gemini 1st Feb 2011, 02:40pm

Even though I voted for the apology, I don,t think it's enough, this man was raped in a sense by these uncaring curators of the museum, and being an old clippie, I can feel his pain, very very sad.

Posted by: Alec05 1st Feb 2011, 03:01pm

If those in charge had to go before a court or commitee, to answer for their neglect,and were fined a sum towards stricter security, these thefts would possibly cease. Sure as hell somone has to be held accountable. This should be an acceptible condition of employment.

Posted by: Heather 1st Feb 2011, 03:06pm

The difference is Mary, when we get sacked we only get the salary due to the date of being sacked as well any salary for holidays due to us.

When the high heid yins get sacked, they get thousands of pounds in compensation as well as a massive pension.

The lost/stolen items will have been sold on to other collectors.

The whole lot of those high heid yins working in Glasgow Life should be sacked without any compensation.
In fact, we the Glasgow people should sue them for their mis-management as the items in any Glasgow Museum belong to the Glasgow people.

Now how do we go about getting a Warrant issued for their arrest?? ohmy.gif

Posted by: runningrocker 1st Feb 2011, 03:34pm

Hey Old Sailor,

I dont think that you are an old fogey. I quite agree with you on some of your points and in particular the whole attitude towards things with any historic or sentimental value.
I am still the lower side of 40 and well have had dealing with the people at Glasgow life and the museum before, being a person who is into motor cycles and in particular old British motor cycles.
I was in the process of restoring an old BSA and went to the museum, among other places, to try and get some information on the machine only to be met with an attitude and a passion of disinterest to match. I was in not so uncertain terms asked why a person of my age wanted to be messing around with a bike that was, at that time twice my age.

These are the people who have chosen to supposedly look after history and bring it to life, mmm, what chance do we in the street have if those in the know dont care?

We live in a world today were society believes in the throw away policy, O yes the government goes on about recycling, but i mean throw away as in just get a new one, that one is old.

With attitude like i was met with and the world the way it is there will be nothing left of history, until it repeats itself, and no one will know anything about the past.

It is a disgrace and until we educate and change the world away from the way things are, loses like these will continue to happen and no one will care cause its 'just old stuff anyway'

Posted by: glasgow lass 1st Feb 2011, 03:35pm

I dont think anyone should be sacked untill there has been a thorough and proper investigation, whoever stole these treasures are heartless, speaking of heartless people someone stole the relic from a cathedral in Toronto, this relic was placed in embedded marble inside a small glass container at the front of the church for all to view. It was a relic of the true cross, Sad to say nothing surprises me these days.

Posted by: Jupiter 1st Feb 2011, 04:28pm

A number of paintings were stolen 15 years ago when there was a local authority policy of not reporting to the Police or entering them on the Art Loss Register so since then it would appear that the place has been treated like an Aladinns Cave by individuals who have been safe in the knowledge that little or no action would be taken either to check or audit the missing property.Shameful.

Posted by: Rab 1st Feb 2011, 04:37pm

curator (plural curators)
1. A person who manages, administers or organizes a collection, either independently or employed by a museum, library, archive or zoo.

Sounds like a sacking offence to me. mad.gif

Posted by: Heather 1st Feb 2011, 05:11pm

Your right there Rab. Can you not put on the old uniform and just go and arrest them??
Seeing as they have not been sacked, lets put them in the dock, either at the Court or the Clyde. laugh.gif

Posted by: Tram Man 1st Feb 2011, 06:08pm

The items were lost over a 75-year period, a council audit in 1996 said that previous arrangements were not working and the city invested 22 million in moving from 147 stores in 14 buildings, to three secure stores, including the 20 million Glasgow Museums Resource Centre.

With a collection of 1.4 million items, Glasgow, like any other major city with significant collections, will see some items being mislabelled or lost during inventory exercises - and yes, some will have been stolen in the past.

However, that all changed in the late 90s, and the objects are more secure now than they ever were.

Posted by: droschke7 1st Feb 2011, 09:55pm

QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 1st Feb 2011, 12:17am) *
It is called Looting and Plundering anywhere else.

Absolutely I Agree, they've (or someone has) sold the stuff off and now they've "lost it" no way can you lose half a tram, gies a break.

Posted by: Heather 1st Feb 2011, 10:38pm

The missing items will all be in someone's ' Private Collection '.

Posted by: GG 1st Feb 2011, 10:48pm

QUOTE (Tram Man @ 1st Feb 2011, 05:46pm) *
The items were lost over a 75-year period ...

According to The Herald, the items, donated in 1975, were identified as being in safe storage as late as 1997:

QUOTE
In 1997, he [Dr Macdougall] wrote to the museum to confirm that “everything was in order” and received a letter from a curator, R Smith, acknowledging that the items were located in reserve collections. However, he was more recently informed by the present curator that the items could not be found.

GG.

Posted by: Dunvegan 2nd Feb 2011, 12:57am

Whats got me going ; If ye stole a tram where wid' ye put it???

Posted by: glasgow lass 2nd Feb 2011, 12:59am

a know a good place laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: GG 2nd Feb 2011, 08:55am

Glasgow Life yesterday confirmed that a total of 634 items supposed to be under its care are now classed as "unlocated to date". By comparison, a spokeswoman for the City of Edinburgh Council museum collections said none of the items in its care are classified as "missing, stolen or unaccounted for". Similarly, Glasgow University, which has one of the biggest collections in Scotland, holding more than one million objects, said: "There have been no significant instances of theft from the university collections for at least 30 years."

Last week Glasgow City Council published figures showing that the number of Glaswegians visiting the city's museums, run by Glasgow Life, had plummeted by almost a third in just two years. In some deprived areas of Glasgow, as few as one person in 50 now visit a city museum or gallery each year.

GG.

Posted by: Rabbie 2nd Feb 2011, 10:58am

Anywan ken where I can lift the other half from?

Whoooppsss..... rumbled

Posted by: mlconnelly 2nd Feb 2011, 12:36pm

I agree Heather about the high heid yins but can some one explain why these people get paid loads of money for being totally rubbish at their job, manager of RBS is a perfect example. If this

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 2nd Feb 2011, 01:32pm

I think; and I hope you'll pardon me for having this opinion, that when one looks at the various characters who have held councillor positions in the City of Glasgow in recent years and the type of people with whom they associated, it comes as no surprise that some of Glasgow's treasures are "unlocated to date".

Posted by: GG 2nd Feb 2011, 11:08pm

Glasgow Life in the news today:

QUOTE
Glasgow Life to shed 300 posts in aim to save 10m

Cuts at culture trust will affect museum service Glasgow Life plans to make 300 posts redundant over a two-year period to save 10.2m over three years.

The trust runs museums, libraries and sport centres for the city council. It has about 3,500 employees, including about 650 museum staff.

"Museums don’t exist as a separate entity, so they will be affected, but not disproportionately," said a spokesman for Glasgow Life.

He added that no facilities would close during the cost-cutting exercise. "We will be looking to increase flexibility among the workforce and at ways of increasing income as part of the savings."

Brian Smith, Glasgow branch secretary of the Unison union, said: "We are concerned about how the council plans to raise this so-called extra income." He warned that industrial action would take place if any of the job losses were made through compulsory redundancies. ...

Full story here:
http://www.museumsassociation.org/museums-journal/news/01022011-glasgow-life-to-shed-300-posts

GG.

Posted by: Jupiter 3rd Feb 2011, 12:30am

I think its a waiting game now.David Dickinsons Real Deal is coming to Glasgow soon and this is bound to draw out the culprits."Any merr ferrs up ra sterrs there?"

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 3rd Feb 2011, 01:45am

This item was taken from the heraldscotland website (e-mailed) today

Paintings, sculptures, military items, Roman artefacts, Egyptian weapons and letters from the First World War are among the 634 items currently “unlocated to date”.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/hundreds-of-items-lost-from-glasgow-museums-1.1083036

QUOTE
A source claimed all major collections experienced similar problems. A spokesman for Glasgow Life said: “Some of these losses date back to the 1920s and the number is 0.05% of our entire collection of 1.4 million items ... “We remain hopeful that further inventory work will identify some of the missing items ... We will work with other agencies and the police to track any objects taken from our stores ... “Art thieves can be cunning and many items are stolen to order. Proper storage of historical artefacts is not cheap but essential if we want to pass them down to the next generation.” .

Items in storage:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/polopoly_fs/12394727-1.1083042!image/546127685.JPG_gen/derivatives/landscape_620/546127685.JPG

Posted by: Drew 4th Feb 2011, 09:45am

QUOTE (GG @ 2nd Feb 2011, 08:33am) *
Glasgow Life yesterday confirmed that a total of 634 items supposed to be under its care are now classed as "unlocated to date". By comparison, a spokeswoman for the City of Edinburgh Council museum collections said none of the items in its care are classified as "missing, stolen or unaccounted for". Similarly, Glasgow University, which has one of the biggest collections in Scotland, holding more than one million objects, said: "There have been no significant instances of theft from the university collections for at least 30 years."

Last week Glasgow City Council published figures showing that the number of Glaswegians visiting the city's museums, run by Glasgow Life, had plummeted by almost a third in just two years. In some deprived areas of Glasgow, as few as one person in 50 now visit a city museum or gallery each year.

GG.

This is the nub of the matter, over a million objects in its care and less than a 1000 pieces unaccounted for. I dont know how this compares elsewhere, but it does seem that there may be a number of reasons for this relatively small number being lost in the system. It does not necessarily mean that all the objects are stolen. It looks to me as if Glasgow Life are doing a reasonable job in looking after the artifacts but need to try to encourage more Glaswegians to visit their wonderful heritage.

Posted by: Jupiter 4th Feb 2011, 03:06pm

I can accept the loss of a thimble or a misfiled document.Half a tram,I dont think so.

Posted by: Drew 4th Feb 2011, 03:27pm

QUOTE (Jupiter @ 4th Feb 2011, 02:44pm) *
I can accept the loss of a thimble or a misfiled document.Half a tram,I dont think so.

Ach it will probably turn up behind two 41 buses one of these days.

Posted by: benny 4th Feb 2011, 07:05pm

QUOTE (Drew @ 4th Feb 2011, 10:23am) *
This is the nub of the matter, over a million objects in its care and less than a 1000 pieces unaccounted for. I dont know how this compares elsewhere, but it does seem that there may be a number of reasons for this relatively small number being lost in the system. . . . .

Dis that mean ye'd be quite happy if yer bank manager told ye that he'd lost a thousand quid of your money, Drew? Efter aw, he's lookin efter millions of other wee pound notes awright. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Mathieson 4th Feb 2011, 07:34pm

QUOTE (Jupiter @ 4th Feb 2011, 03:44pm) *
I can accept the loss of a thimble or a misfiled document.Half a tram,I dont think so.

You know what'll happen, wait long enough and three half trams will all show up at wance.

Posted by: Drew 4th Feb 2011, 08:31pm

QUOTE (benny @ 4th Feb 2011, 06:43pm) *
Dis that mean ye'd be quite happy if yer bank manager told ye that he'd lost a thousand quid of your money, Drew? Efter aw, he's lookin efter millions of other wee pound notes awright. biggrin.gif

It's not quite the same,Benny. The Tram donor wouldnt expect to pop in to the museum for a couple of seats and a window to tide him over until pay day.

Posted by: weeshuggie 5th Feb 2011, 09:44am

QUOTE (benny @ 4th Feb 2011, 06:43pm) *
Dis that mean ye'd be quite happy if yer bank manager told ye that he'd lost a thousand quid of your money, Drew? Efter aw, he's lookin efter millions of other wee pound notes awright. biggrin.gif

If ye had a million and lost a thousand pounds you would hardly blink an eye even with our Scottish genes. And if he loses a thousand of every other millionaire then you wouldn't care either, he's not going to run away, he'll become your MP.

Posted by: GG 5th Feb 2011, 10:14am

According to the opinion of a highly-respected community activist, the underlying cause of the loss of so many artefacts from city museums is rooted in the ingrained stubborness of local politicians to carry out their official duty of care to the people of this great city.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/herald-letters/letters-thursday-3-february-2011-1.1083243, Thursday, 3 February 2011:

QUOTE
A city’s rich heritage is at risk as a result of poor accounting

It seems Glasgow City Council and its Aleo, or arms-length company, Glasgow Life have been a mite careless with stewardship of the city’s moveable heritage.

Disturbing as it is to misplace the odd tramcar, this admission pales into insignificance compared with the loss from the common good assets register of whole buildings and pieces of ancient land – Kelvin Hall, Peoples’ Palace, Glasgow Green and Balloch Park for example. All of these and many more properties and moveables, including at least some of the missing artefacts, were given to the people of Glasgow and recorded as common good until as recently as the 1970s. The income from this bounty should have swelled the common good fund and been used to finance community projects. The fund stands at about 13 million instead of an estimated 100m, the balance not having been properly accounted for, assets having been liquidated and the cash having been spent by the city for purposes not specified in the deed of gift.

Unfortunately Glasgow City Council continues to ignore a 2007 instruction from the then Scottish Executive to produce an up-to-date asset register. How much of our heritage do we have to lose before Glasgow’s accounting and inventory policies are properly scrutinised?

Bill Fraser, Glasgow.

GG.

Posted by: Drew 5th Feb 2011, 10:32am

QUOTE (GG @ 5th Feb 2011, 09:52am) *
According to the opinion of a highly-respected community activist, the underlying cause of the loss of so many artefacts from city museums is rooted in the ingrained stubborness of local politicians to carry out their official duty of care to the people of this great city. ...

This is, of course, a whole other kettle of fish. I agree that an asset register is elemental in conducting proper business. It is really a matter for Glasgow's electors to decide whether they have a local authority that can and will conduct their business for the greater good.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 7th Feb 2011, 10:33pm

... and if an estimated 87 Million quid is unaccounted for then the Glasgow electors do not have a local authority that can or will conduct their business for the greater good.

Posted by: Scotsman 8th Feb 2011, 01:16am

@Drew

The reality for Glaswegians is that they increasingly refuse to vote for councillors who think that the 'greater good' begins and ends with looking after their own self-interests. Politicians in Glasgow are elected on turnouts of less than a third of the registered voters!! Hardly a ringing endorsement of whoever wins. It's time for Labour councillors to get their snouts out of the trough and start working for the people rather than themselves!! I agree that an asset register would be a good start, although 60 years too late!!

Posted by: Dunvegan 9th Feb 2011, 01:59am

QUOTE (Scotsman @ 8th Feb 2011, 10:54am) *
@Drew

The reality for Glaswegians is that they increasingly refuse to vote for councillors who think that the 'greater good' begins and ends with looking after their own self-interests. ...

In Australia voting at all levels is compulsory; local council, state and federal. We have proportional voting as opposed to 1st past the post. That way a candidate can have the highest number of votes but is still not the winner in overall choice. In spite of this we still get the usual mix of self serving syncophants, nepotists and downright crims.

Posted by: GG 9th Feb 2011, 10:08pm

The chairman of Glasgow Life, Councillor George Redmond, responded to the letter to The Herald http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=19980&view=findpost&p=342606 with his own letter in defence of the performance of Glasgow Life. Unfortunately for the councillor chairman, his letter only served to inflame matters when he declared that "The collection belongs to Glasgow City Council...". The next day a further letter was sent to the newspaper informing the councillor that:

QUOTE
... He refers to "the collection" and maintains this unspecified collection belongs to Glasgow City Council. In fact, all such assets belong to the citizens of Glasgow as common good. How could they be transferred to Glasgow Culture and Sport (later Glasgow Life) without public consultation and with no complete inventory of the items to be protected? ...

GG.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 9th Feb 2011, 10:34pm

... oops!

Posted by: Drew 9th Feb 2011, 10:46pm

QUOTE (GG @ 9th Feb 2011, 09:46pm) *
The chairman of Glasgow Life, Councillor George Redmond, responded to the letter to The Herald http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=19980&view=findpost&p=342606 with his own letter in defence of the performance of Glasgow Life. Unfortunately for the councillor chairman, his letter only served to inflame matters when he declared that "The collection belongs to Glasgow City Council...". The next day a further letter was sent to the newspaper informing the councillor that:

QUOTE
... He refers to "the collection" and maintains this unspecified collection belongs to Glasgow City Council. In fact, all such assets belong to the citizens of Glasgow as common good. How could they be transferred to Glasgow Culture and Sport (later Glasgow Life) without public consultation and with no complete inventory of the items to be protected? ...

GG.

Councils are bound by strict rules which require them, in law, to do some things and conversely, bar them from doing things they are not entitled to do. If the writer of this most recent letter thinks GCC have acted 'ultra vires' he can ask the Council's senior legal officer to make a ruling on the matter. Or any other citizen can ask the question.

Posted by: GG 9th Feb 2011, 11:18pm

Thanks Drew, good point.

The issue raised by the latest letter writer regarding "no complete inventory of the items" existing at the time of the creation of Culture and Sport Glasgow (later renamed Glasgow Life) is the same issue raised by the then Leader of the Liberal Democrat Group at Glasgow City Council, Christopher Mason, when the charitable company was set up in 2007:

QUOTE
The Outline Business Case for the charitable company to run Glasgow's cultural and leisure services barely mentions the Common Good Fund, so I don't know what to make of John Lynch's [convener of Glasgow City Council's Cultural and Leisure Services] assurance that the council is putting in place measures to safeguard it. Perhaps he could tell us what the measures are and publish a list of the common good assets to be managed or used by the charity if it is set up. It is also good to have his promise that ownership of the assets is to stay with the council, but I don't think that point was ever in serious doubt.

Perhaps the Labour leadership in the council could give now some public answers to the hard questions.

How does it reconcile Councillor Purcell's pledge that the council will still have full control of cultural and leisure services, with the legal requirement that to qualify for charitable status an organisation must be truly independent and capable of taking its own decisions? How is the charity to be accountable to citizens? If the charity is truly independent, will the council be able to control any charges it levies for its services to the public?

I really do not understand John Lynch's assertion that the charity will be able to access funds that the council cannot. He refers to the Kelvingrove Regeneration Appeal and says it "showed how such public-private partnerships can work". Indeed it did: a body of trustees led brilliantly by Lord Macfarlane raised millions of pounds on the clear understanding that it was going to pass on the money to Glasgow City Council for it to spend on Kelvingrove. Why should this system not work equally well for other projects? [...]

Christopher Mason
Leader of the Liberal Democrat Group, Glasgow City Council.

Although I note that Dr Mason also refers to the assets belonging to Glasgow City Council and not the people of Glasgow. I will post here any clarification on the matter which may emerge.

GG.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 9th Feb 2011, 11:57pm

Was a inventory ever taken of the Common Good Assets and a list published?

Posted by: GG 10th Feb 2011, 08:52am

TeeHeeHee, I don't know if a full list of Commom Good assets has ever been taken (as this information may be privy to certain parties), however, I am quite sure that one has never been published. As many people before me have reflected, including Dr Mason above, the lack of a full list pre-transfer to Culture and Sport Glasgow (now Glasgow Life) leaves the quango/aleo in a vulnerable position, completely unable to deny – with certainty – that artefect losses (such as the tram) did not occur while they were 'guardians'.

GG.

Posted by: Dunvegan 11th Feb 2011, 11:35pm

A wance loast a grand piana like that.

Posted by: ashfield 12th Feb 2011, 09:28am

I heard the polis were on the case of the missing tram and following two lines of enquiry rolleyes.gif

Posted by: GG 12th Feb 2011, 10:55am

A list of common good assests is available on the council website. It looks a wee bit light at only 13 assets, especially as the council is legally obliged to keep a full list, but here it is:

  1. Range of Shops, 53-67 Byres Road
  2. Range of Shops, 4-6 Dowanhill St
  3. Range of Shops, 174-182 Dumbarton Road
  4. Range of Shops, 407-439 Gt Western Road
  5. Range of Shops, 33-37 Riverford Road
  6. Range of Shops, 254-290 Sauchiehall St
  7. Citizens Theatre, 119a-123 Gorbals St
  8. Bowling Green, 1240-1284 Dumbarton Road
  9. Nithsdale Hall, 41-43 Nithsdale Dr
  10. Humbie Farm (Farm Grazing Land adjacent to Newton Mearns)
  11. Vacant Land, 234 London Road
  12. Vacant Land, 120 Woodville St
  13. Pollok Country Park
Apparently the other common good assests – parks, buildings, works of art, lost trams, etc. – are not listed because the council deems them to be "operational assets"! This operational status is a handy application for the council as it keeps the income from the thousands of other common good assets out of the Common Good Fund (but that's another story).

As for ownership of the assets, which the two councillors listed above claimed belonged to the council, the common good assets belong categorically to the citizens of Glasgow. In fact, a Dr Neil of Selkirk responded specifically to Dr Mason of the Lib Dems after he wrote to The Herald newspaper:

QUOTE
I wish to correct Councillor Christopher Mason's belief that the ownership of Glasgow's common good assets, which have been the subject of much recent correspondence, "stays with the council". Sadly, he misleads himself, and probably others, by so stating. The basic point is that common good assets belong to the inhabitants of the city, town or burgh to whom they were granted, endowed or bequeathed, and not to a local authority council. Scots law is perfectly clear on that.

Elected councillors, as trustees of Common Good Funds, have a duty to protect these assets on behalf of the community, a trusteeship that enjoys a higher legal status and obligation than their other council duties.

It is therefore sad that in Glasgow, as elsewhere, the management of Common Good Funds is so beset by ignorance and confusion as to what the duties of trustees to Common Good Funds are to these assets and to the community at large. It seems to be up to the ordinary voting public to try to protect their fellow citizens' rights in this area when their elected and paid representatives are unable to grasp even the basic concepts of what the trusteeship involves.

The implication, of course: if someome did steal the missing tram, then they stole it from the people of Glasgow and not from the council or from Glasgow Life.

GG.

Posted by: Drew 12th Feb 2011, 02:47pm

Its all a bit dark this common good thing. Andy Wightman shed some light on it a little while back but I dont know what became of his report. Local Authorities are charged with managing the fund and as far as I am aware, trustees are elected members. Elected members also have responsibilities in managing the Local Authority general fund and this is where the lights go out. There should be no cross funding of Council business from the CGF but there are ways to get around this and I think Councils do increasingly see these funds as an extra reserve. In a fair world the trustees would have a good distance between their activities and those of the Council.

Posted by: Rab 13th Feb 2011, 02:47pm

QUOTE (ashfield @ 12th Feb 2011, 10:06am) *
I heard the polis were on the case of the missing tram and following two lines of enquiry rolleyes.gif


True, but in last nights paper they said they had been led up a close and had decided to terminate as they could go no further.

Posted by: ashfield 13th Feb 2011, 06:08pm

QUOTE (Rab @ 13th Feb 2011, 03:25pm) *
True, but in last nights paper they said they had been led up a close and had decided to terminate as they could go no further.


Aye Rab I heard that, they say they just lost track. They still had some points to follow up on to, shame rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Rab 14th Feb 2011, 05:11pm

QUOTE (ashfield @ 13th Feb 2011, 06:46pm) *
Aye Rab I heard that, they say they just lost track. They still had some points to follow up on to, shame rolleyes.gif

My old friend Det.Superintendent E.R.L. Fitzpayne who has taken over the case, informs me (confidentially) by cable, that they now have a 'sleeper' in the Museum who has given them some new lines to follow. At this junction, he hopes this may generate some enthusiasm in his squad and give them the drive to conduct their enquiries by a safe route without further derailments.

Posted by: ashfield 14th Feb 2011, 07:22pm

QUOTE (Rab @ 14th Feb 2011, 05:49pm) *
My old friend Det.Superintendent E.R.L. Fitzpayne who has taken over the case, informs me (confidentially) by cable, that they now have a 'sleeper' in the Museum who has given them some new lines to follow. At this junction, he hopes this may generate some enthusiasm in his squad and give them the drive to conduct their enquiries by a safe route without further derailments.

Well thank goodness for that Rab, If they ever catch the culprits, I hope they at least punch their tickets but caurporal punishment would be better.

Posted by: Rab 14th Feb 2011, 10:06pm

QUOTE (ashfield @ 14th Feb 2011, 08:00pm) *
Well thank goodness for that Rab, If they ever catch the culprits, I hope they at least punch their tickets but caurporal punishment would be better.

I agree! A good clippie round the lug is whats needed. wink.gif

Posted by: benny 14th Feb 2011, 10:19pm

Could they no jist drap Fitzpayne an get Inspector Blakie oan the case? biggrin.gif

Posted by: johnamato 15th Feb 2011, 09:13pm

the stuffs probarlay lying in some council yard somewhere or a basement in the trongate and the person who put them there is dead

Posted by: wombat 15th Feb 2011, 10:30pm

QUOTE (Rab @ 14th Feb 2011, 10:44pm) *
I agree! A good clippie round the lug is whats needed. wink.gif

rolleyes.gif wis prolly druggies thit done the job,had a cuppla "lines" furst


Posted by: TeeHeeHee 15th Feb 2011, 11:09pm

QUOTE (johnamato @ 15th Feb 2011, 08:51pm) *
the stuffs probarlay lying in some council yard somewhere or a basement in the trongate and the person who put them there is dead

That's probably nearer to the truth than you'd think. Might even be a few tea chests stuck away somewhere long forgotten stuffed with files full of lists rolleyes.gif

Posted by: JMG 7th Jul 2011, 03:37pm

hello, im quite disappointed to read of this.
i went to see the new museum and committed to the girlfriend that i thought a few trams were not on display - i just put it down to the place being mobbed because of the summer holidays - we just had a quick look around and planed to go back when the schools return.

how to you lose such a large item? i started to look around the Internet to see if i could come across any signs of these trams, i have found a few pics and other bits of info on who removed the trams from the old museum.

the main removal team was - Constantine who from what i have read removed most of the "light" items and a the firm that moved the trams as Alleys group.



the picture shows the tram 1088 ready for removal

I'm going to keep digging around to see if i can find any newer images/videos hopefully i will find the actual uplift of this as i have seen the uplift of some of the other trams, some pictures show the trucks these were put on.

i know tram 1088 cant be located and i think the other is 672 the cream one?? can any one confirm the exact trams??

i hope these trams are found and returned to the people of Glasgow!

JMG

Posted by: JMG 7th Jul 2011, 05:26pm

QUOTE
Thank you for your enquiry received through Glasgow Museums Collections Navigator.

T.1964.35.b - Tram Car, 'Room and Kitchen', single deck car, circa 1900 - and T.1964.35.d - Tram Car No 1088, reconstructed enclosed vehicle with hex dash, 1928-32 - are both currently on display at Riverside Museum

(http://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/museums/our-museums/riverside-museum/Pages/default.aspx )

Many thanks,

T. Hawkins

Posted by: GG 8th Jul 2011, 12:52am

JMG, I believe that the items lost were 'taken' from storage and not from display, so it is probably not the items you were thinking of.

That said, if we put the loss of the tram car aside, the loss of the other items, including: boxes of tramcar drivers' timeboards, old tram tickets and approximately 50 rolls of unique colour film of the trams running in Glasgow's streets in 1960s, is disgraceful. Can you imagine how much of Glasgow life from that period would have be included in those films?

As yet, according to what has been published in the media, the items have not been retrieved and Glasgow Life is still to apologise to the pensioner who kindly put his trust in Glasgow museums.

GG.

Posted by: Dunvegan 8th Jul 2011, 02:27am

Disgrace is not the word for it. All kidding and swanking aside I could have been in them movies. I was once surprised to see myself in a news report on TV about the closures off the upper Clyde ship building consortium. Living in a country now that would spend three years arguing about the merits or otherwise of preserving a country dunny, I am annoyed at seeing my history, and yours, disappearing into the hands of unscrupulous collectors.

Posted by: GG 31st Jul 2011, 09:24am

Just read the following, from the minutes of the February 2011 meeting of the board of directors of Culture and Sport Glasgow (Glasgow Life) ...

QUOTE
With regard to the Artworks Audit and Museums Security

[a] that the creation of Glasgow Museums Collection Management
section in 1993 had greatly improved the care of collections, with
over 1 million items inventoried;

[b] that there were a number of recent thefts of items, as well as
historical losses, with efforts ongoing to recover missing items;
and

[c] a cross service group were involved in the production of a review
of security in Glasgow Life, and progress to date had seen the
completion of security audits for the buildings in scope; and

[d] the group were now considering revision to the operational models
with Glasgow

Proof, according to CSG/GL, that thefts have taken place during their watch, and that items from the collection were not simply 'mislaid' or 'lost'.

GG.

Posted by: klingon 2nd Aug 2011, 12:35am

Aye they checked the Barras but only found 15 counterfeit tram fronts there! laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: kenb 28th Sep 2011, 12:30am

QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 1st Feb 2011, 12:25am) *
It is called Looting and Plundering anywhere else.

i like your style you must be on the computer all day theft by design mad.gif or is it planned

Posted by: tamhickey 28th Sep 2011, 03:58am

Stephen Purcell, once leader of the council turned out out be a homosexual (so what), an admitted drug taker and heavy drinker as well as being linked to some of Glasgow's gangsters, yet was never prosecuted. It makes you wonder, though I have no proof of this, that he may have been open to blackmail from those same gangsters. He was advised by the police that this could be the case yet, still he goes about his business where many others would have been arrested. It does make you wonder about his entire tenure at the city council. He ought to be fully investigated by the police, just as the rest of us are subject to the law of the land.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 28th Sep 2011, 07:59am

QUOTE (kenb @ 28th Sep 2011, 01:16am) *
i like your style you must be on the computer all day theft by design or is it planned

I used to be on the computer all day, for reasons that are well enough known on the boards.
What I've posted, in the form of pictures or articles, was available for free download.
(This in case you might be referring to my theft by design.)
If not, then I must agree with you that it seems planned.
I once purloined a big vice from a workbench which had a carpeted surface; I needed it in order to be able to do a difficult job, in a hangar at Gatwick. I covered the bench with an aluminium sheet. The team whose bench it was spent ages going around the hangars trying to locate their carpet covered bench which had been replaced with the one that was covered in alu ... it never entered their heads that their vice was the designed theft. tongue.gif
(I put it back when I left after the contracted repair was finished ... who needs to lug such a big vice around?) rolleyes.gif
Plankin' things under peoples noses then removing them when the heat's off was state of the art purloining in the RAF. laugh.gif

Posted by: kenb 28th Sep 2011, 10:55am

QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 28th Sep 2011, 08:45am) *
I used to be on the computer all day, for reasons that are well enough known on the boards.
What I've posted, in the form of pictures or articles, was available for free download.
(This in case you might be referring to my theft by design.)
If not, then I must agree with you that it seems planned.
I once purloined a big vice from a workbench which had a carpeted surface; I needed it in order to be able to do a difficult job, in a hangar at Gatwick. I covered the bench with an aluminium sheet. The team whose bench it was spent ages going around the hangars trying to locate their carpet covered bench which had been replaced with the one that was covered in alu ... it never entered their heads that their vice was the designed theft. tongue.gif
(I put it back when I left after the contracted repair was finished ... who needs to lug such a big vice around?) rolleyes.gif
Plankin' things under peoples noses then removing them when the heat's off was state of the art purloining in the RAF. laugh.gif

hi again i cant seem to get it right try again hi tee i am sorry if you thought i was infering any thing i actually look forward to your posts,you have a similar type of humour to me i hope i have cleared that up , so hurry up and give us a laugh,or inform us and keep me right cheers.
kenb

Posted by: wee davy 28th Sep 2011, 12:12pm

dinnae you worry yersel kenb - you infer awe ye like aboot oor THEE - he has heard most of it awe before lol
mind you, i dont think he'd like it if you inferred he would turn doon his name from appearing oan the next honours list, in the knights column!!!

(there might be wan gaun spare, THEE - Ed Miliband implied yesterday, in his speech, that a certain mr fred goodwin, might do well to return his laugh.gif )

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 28th Sep 2011, 12:45pm

Sorry Davy, but the only second hand things in my life are my cars ... and my ladies. tongue.gif
Ken, don't you worry ... you'd have to go some tae catch up wi' that Tommy Kennedy. rolleyes.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: kenb 28th Sep 2011, 01:25pm

wee davy and lord tee cheers rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Arden Chap 11th Dec 2011, 01:19pm

An interesting read - did they ever find it of did they ever apologise to the old man who was so upset that they lost it in the first place?

Posted by: Doug1 16th Jun 2012, 06:35pm

Has anybody checked all the Councillor's hooses yet?

Posted by: Tori G 18th Jun 2012, 10:26am

How can a museum loose half or front end of a tram, lots of tight-lipped people involved.

Surely someone remembers it possibly going in a truck to where ever? or even being loaded on a ship to possible foriegn shores.

Terrible! and not good for the person donating, and shame on the councilors/curators for not even being able to back track on any information.

Posted by: Scotsman 18th Jun 2012, 03:29pm

QUOTE (Doug1 @ 16th Jun 2012, 07:50pm) *
Has anybody checked all the Councillor's hooses yet?

He-he Doug.... are you trying to infer that oor cooncillors have all got more than one hoose each? smile.gif

I think I have said this before when the chat was started but at the very least the council or the councillors who are in charge needed to apologise to the man who gave the tram to Glasgow. Even if they could not find it then they could have at least said one simple word.... SORRY!!

Posted by: Doug1 18th Jun 2012, 03:40pm

Aye and then again maybe its been pinched by these pesky metal thieves eh!! shock3.gif
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