Glasgow Guide Home

Whats On Glasgow Guide
  Glasgow What's On


    Glasgow Reviews


    Glasgow Gallery


      Glasgow Links
Discuss | Guestbook | Postcard | News | Weather | Feedback | Search | About | What's New
Glasgow Guide Discussion Boards

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )                >> View Today's Topics <<

18 Pages V  « < 11 12 13 14 15 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Are The Scots Really Irish? Dalriada, Gallowglass, The historical links between Ulster and Argyll
Rating 5 V
Paul Kelly
post 19th Dec 2008, 06:54am
Post #181


Super Lord Provost
*****
Posts: 420
Joined: 10th Feb 2006
From: Gaborone, Botswana
Member No.: 2,956
QUOTE (Fifer @ 10th Dec 2008, 03:13pm) *
Hi

I am a Gault from Fife and orginally Ulster, always thought the Gault or Galt name was of French Huguenot origins. Believe they moved from France to Ayrshire and Ulster around the 1500's.
There are not many of us in Fife but still a great amount left in Ulster. Anybody able to throw any more light on this one ???


Hi Fifer.

I could only find one website that indicates that the Gaults of Ayrshire are of French Huguenot (French Protestant) extraction.

http://wham.org/TomWhamHistory.htm

Gault is a surname associated with Ayrshire and the surname is also common in Ulster as a result of the 17th century Scottish Protestant Plantations.

There is a Gault surname in England. However the Gault surname in Scotland is said to be of different origins. As RonD (rdem) mentioned in posts #8 and #146, the Gault surname in Scotland is said to be similar to the Galbraith surname, and indicated someone who was 'foreign' in the eyes of the Gaelic-speaking 'Scots'. See post #148 of this topic. What was making the Gaults foreign in the eyes of the 'Scots' I am not sure. They might have been of Brittonic, Anglo-Saxon or Norman extraction.

While most of the Gaults in Ulster are of Scottish Protestant Planter extraction, it seems that some of the Gaults in Ulster are of 'native' Irish extraction. The relatively rare Irish Gaelic surname of Gallda (meaning a foreigner or a stranger) was also Anglicised as Gault and this surname was similar to the Breathnach (Walsh) surname, although nowhere near as common. See posts #154, #156, #159 and #171. The Gallda surname in Ireland predates the 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster and probably first appeared in the wake of Norman settlements in Ireland in the 12th/13th centuries. See posts #56, #57 and #80. Having said all that, I am sure most of the Gaults in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters.

http://www.surnamedb.com/surname.aspx?name=Gault


--------------------
From every mountainside, let freedom ring. Martin Luther King
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
*A McGugan*
post 23rd Dec 2008, 04:56am
Post #182






Hi, just want to say, the information here is fascinating. One bit in particular interested me - the talkings with James McGoogan. My surname is McGugan, living in Canada. I'm told that my family came over from Scotland, from the area near Inverness, sometime in the 1700s, but little else.

What interested me the most was James' comment about his family being chased out for cattle rustling. One of my Dad's stories is about my great grandfather, who, after fighting in the first world war, decided to take a trip through Scotland before coming home. When he told one of the tour guides his last name, the response he got was a bunch of curses about those *#!@ #^!% cattle stealing Campbells. I thought how the two stories seem to coincide was fairly amusing.

Just out of curiousity though, would you know anything about the Campbell connection there Paul? I've researched, and I could never find a connection between my family and the Campbells, although I was always told there was one there. Most of that I've found seem to connect me to the McNeills around Kintyre.

Thanks.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
*Guest*
post 11th Jan 2009, 02:33am
Post #183






Have you tried narrowing down the area of search for the McGugan/Campbell conection to the Rothiemurchus/Kingussie/Aviemore locality as it seems to be common to both names and it is just south of Inverness? McGugan is thought to be a variant of McGuigan which is a Northern Irish name peculiar to mid/South County Tyrone. As far as cattle rustling, I would have thought that most of the minor clans in Scotland would ahve been accused of this offence. My own clan was so particularly prone to castle rustling that the moon was popularly referred to as 'MacFarlanes' Lantern'.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
*RonanL*
post 27th Jan 2009, 04:35pm
Post #184






Hi Paul, hi all,

Firstly, great thread. I've learnt so much reading through it.

Paul, in one of your posts from Oct '07, you mention that several Gallowglass families, including McSorleys, the one I'm interested in, were descended from Niall of the Nine Hostages. Is this a direct patrilineal descent? If Somerled's DNA suggests that he was actually of Norse, rather than Irish, extract, does this put the kibosh on that theory? (I guess the simplest way for me to double-check is to get my McSorley male cousin to have his DNA tested...)
Regardless of the DNA, in terms of the historiography, where could I find the recorded ancestry from Niall through Somerled on to the families of Islay and Kintyre?

One other thing - related - the article you mention at the end by Sellar is no longer online. Was there an original source? Does anyone have a copy of this article on their hard drive? I'd be very interested in a copy?

Thanks,

Ronan.

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 3rd Oct 2007, 06:12pm) *
On a different matter, in post #38, I wrote about 6 families from Cowal, Glassary and Knapdale in southern Argyll that are all supposed to be direct descendants of the legendary 4th/5th century High King of Ireland, Niall of the Nine Hostages - Lamont, McLachlan, Sweeney (McSweeney), McNeill, McEwen and McSorley. ... The following article by W D H Sellar gives a fuller discussion of these 6 families plus a few others.
http://members.aol.com/Lochlan6/sellar.htm

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Paul Kelly
post 13th Feb 2009, 12:09pm
Post #185


Super Lord Provost
*****
Posts: 420
Joined: 10th Feb 2006
From: Gaborone, Botswana
Member No.: 2,956
Hi Ronan.

I have written a lot about the McSorley surname in various posts on this topic. There is a Search box near the bottom of this page and if you type McSorley then McSorleys and do 2 separate searches you will find all the posts which mention McSorley and McSorleys. There is also a Search facility at the top of the page.

Ronan, you are mixing up 2 different McSorley families: the McSorleys of Kintyre and Islay in Argyll who were said to be descendants of Somerled and the McSorleys of Glassary and Cowal in Argyll who were said to be descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages. The McSorleys of Kintyre and Islay migrated en masse as Gallowglasses to County Tyrone in the 14th century. The McSorleys of Glassary and Cowal were absorbed by the large and dominant Lamont family of Cowal (in the 16th century I think) and became extinct. Here are relevant extracts from some of my previous posts.

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 11th Jun 2007, 12:12pm) *
When I started researching Galloglass families, the initial impression I got was that they originated in the Western Isles (Outer Hebrides and northern Inner Hebrides). However, I now know that this is certainly NOT the case. They all seem to have come from southern Argyll (Kintyre, Knapdale, Glassary and Cowal) and the surrounding islands of the southern Inner Hebrides (Islay, Jura, Colonsay, Gigha, Arran and Bute). In particular, I have been trying to locate the origins of those Galloglass families who relocated to Ireland en masse and whose surnames appear to have died out in Scotland. (ie Sweeney, McCabe, Coll, Sheehy, McGreal, McSorley, McRory, McCallion, McGirr)

In post #30, I mentioned that the Sweeney Gallowglasses originted in Knapdale, north Kintyre and migrated en masse to Donegal in the 14th century. Similarly, the McCabe Galloglasses originated in the Isle of Arran and southern Kintyre and migrated en masse to Cavan/Monaghan in the 14th century. The Coll Gallowglasses originated in Glassary and Colonsay and the McGreal Galloglasses originated in Gigha. The McSorley Galloglasses were a sept of the McDonalds (of Kintyre and Islay) and originated in Islay. They migrated en masse to County Tyrone in the 14th century. However, the McSorley surname did not die out immediately in Scotland because there were still 2 other McSorley families remaining in Scotland who were NOT related to the Galloglass McSorleys of clan McDonald. These were the McSorleys of Glassary and Cowall in Argyll and the McSorlies of Lochaber near Fort William. However, by the 16th century the McSorley surname does appear to have died out in Scotland as the Glassary and Cowal McSorleys adopted the surname Lamont (who were the dominant clan in Cowal) and the Lochaber McSorlies adopted the surname Cameron (who were the dominant clan in Lochaber). (Most Lamonts and Camerons are not descended from these McSorley families but a significant minority of them are.)

Most, if not all of the people in Scotland today with the Gallowglass surnames Sweeney, McCabe, McGirr, McGreal, McSorley, McCallion, McCrory, Sheehy and Coll are descendants of 19th century Catholic Irish immigrants.



QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 12th Jun 2007, 04:04pm) *
In the early 11th cenury the King of the northwest of Ireland (the King of Aileach) was Aodh (Hugh) Athlaman Ua Neill. King Aodh Athlaman was a direct descendant of the 4th/5th century High King of Ireland, Niall of the Nine Hostages. The OLDER son of Athlaman is said to be the direct ancestor of the modern O'Neill family of Ulster, and a close cousin of Athlaman is said to be the direct ancestor of the McLaughlin family of Donegal. King Athlaman died in 1033. The YOUNGER son of Athlaman - Prince Aodh Anrathan Ui Neill - moved to Argyll in 1038 where he married the daughter of one of the chiefs in southern Argyll (Cowal, Glassary and Knapdale). Prince Aodh Anrothan had many sons and the following Argyll clans are said to be his direct descendants: the Lamonts of Cowal, the McLachlans of Cowal and Glassary, the McSorleys of Glassary and Cowal, the McEwens of Cowal and Knapdale, the McSweeneys of Knapdale and the McNeills of Knapdale and Gigha.
(Lamont, McLachlan, McSorley, McEwen, McSweeney, McNeill)

The McSweeneys would eventually return to the northwest of Ireland in the 14th century as Galloglasses and the McSorleys of Cowal would eventually adopt the surname of their larger neighbours in Cowal - the Lamonts - as I mentioned in my previous post. In addition the McEwens of Cowall and Knapdale would eventually adopt the surnames of their larger neighbours - the McLachlans and the Campbells - while those that retained the McEwen/McEwan surname moved to other parts of the Scottish Highlands (and Lowlands). Finally, SOME of the McNeills of Knapdale and Gigha settled in the north east of Ireland as Galloglasses in the 15th century, and according to recent DNA evidence it now seems that the MCNEILL family of Knapdale, Gigha (and Colonsay) in Argyll is not related to the MCNEIL family of Barra in the Outer Hebrides as had been previously assumed.

If these clan histories are true then you would expext many modern Scotsmen with the surnames Lamont, McLachlan (and McNeill) to have an Irish Y-chromosome. In fact, you would expect them to have the Niall Y-chromosome as they should be direct descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages.



QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 3rd Oct 2007, 08:12pm) *
In post #38, I wrote about 6 families from Cowal, Glassary and Knapdale in southern Argyll that are all supposed to be direct descendants of the legendary 4th/5th century High King of Ireland, Niall of the Nine Hostages - Lamont, McLachlan, Sweeney (McSweeney), McNeill, McEwen and McSorley. The McSweeneys of Knapdale and the McNeills of Knapdale and Gigha were of course also Galloglass families. The entire McSweeney family moved to County Donegal as Gallowglasses in the 14th century and some of the McNeill family moved to County Antrim as Galloglasses in the 15th century. However, the McSorleys of Monydrain (just north of Lochgilphead) in Glassary/Cowall were NOT a Galloglass family. They should not be confused with the Galloglass McSorleys of Kintyre and Islay (sept of clan McDonald of Kintyre and Islay) that I wrote about in post #35. The McSorleys of Monydrain in Glassary/Cowal and the McEwens of Otter in Cowal are now both extinct (see post #38). The following article by W D H Sellar gives a fuller discussion of these 6 families plus a few others.

http://members.aol.com/Lochlan6/sellar.htm



QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 5th Oct 2007, 12:53pm) *
The McCabes are a Gallowglass family from the Isle of Arran who moved en masse to Counties Cavan, Monaghan and Fermanagh in the 14th century. It is sometimes alleged that the McCabes are related to the McLeods. I am very sceptical of this. The McLeods are associated with the far north west of Scotland (Lewis, Harris, Skye), a million miles from the Isle of Arran in southern Argyll. In addition, as Andrew McKerral mentions in his 2 articles (see my previous post), many of the McCabe Galloglasses used the forenames Ailin (Alan) and Somhairle (Sorley or Somerled) which would suggest that they were descendants of Somerled. The McLeods are NOT descendants of Somerled. Many of the Galloglass families that settled in Ireland were direct descendants of Somerled - McDonnell (McDonald), McDowell (McDougall), McAllister (McAlister), McCrory (McRory), McSorley (Mac Somhairle), Coll (Mac Colla), Sheehy (McSheehy) and possibly one or two others (see my earlier posts on Gallowglass). I think it is likely that the McCabes were related to the MacDonalds of Kintyre and Islay and not to the MacLeods.

In posts #46 and #47, I was also questioning the conventional wisdom that the McCallion (MacAilin) Galloglasses were related to the Campbells of Loch Awe. The Campbells are NOT descendants of Somerled (post #48). Ailin MacSomhairle (Alan McSorley) was a grandson of the legendary Somerled. So the Ailin (Alan) name was associated with the descendants of Somerled, as well as with the Campbell clan. In fact, Cailean, not Ailin, is the name associated with the Campbell clan, which has been Anglicised as Colin, not Alan. I still think there is a possibility that the McCallion (MacAilin) Gallowglasses were related to the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay and not to the Campbells of mid Argyll.



QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 6th Jan 2008, 09:58am) *
The McSorleys were a family from Kintyre and Islay (sept of the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay) in southern Argyll who moved en masse to County Tyrone as Gallowglasses in the 14th century. Here, they quickly intermarried with the local native Irish families of County Tyrone such as the Kellys and were assimilated into Ulster Gaelic culture (see post #35). I have discussed the McSorleys in many posts of this topic (#5, #24, #35, #38, #41, #53, #55, #81 and #83). I remember reading an article sometime ago about the McSorleys of County Tyrone in which it was claimed that SOME of the McSorleys of Tyrone are probably of native Irish extraction. While McSorley Galloglasses undoubtedly settled in Tyrone in the 14th century, it also seems likely that a few native Irish people also adopted the McSorley surname such was their admiration for the Gallowglass family. I think this might have been true for all the Galloglass families that settled in Ireland/Ulster. The Gallowglass were admired by the native Irish for their fighting prowess. There is a yellow rectangular box near the bottom of this page with the words Enter Keywords written in it. If you type McSorley and then press Search Topic you will get all the posts that mention McSorley. You should then repeat the search with the word McSorleys as post #38 will not show up in the 1st search. Somerled is another keyword you can try.


--------------------
From every mountainside, let freedom ring. Martin Luther King
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
*brian quinn*
post 22nd Feb 2009, 07:38am
Post #186






Hello

Just adding that the agnews also went also to Antrim with the plantagenets to Larne and run back home to Scotland when the climate dteriorated and the locals stayed put. Now I reckonm that some norman agnews may well have been called o'gnive by the local scribes it sounds the same...but on the other hand the agnews that landed back in Wigtown well maybe they were o'gnimh to give them their irish spelling and changed to ASgnew then went back to ireland as planters later on with a pseudo norman name



anyway who knows I cre coz my mother is an agnew and family story came over with covenanters then took up land as planters but already had had land there leased from MacDonnell anyway



and another gallowglass my great granny was a Gallogy who came form a townland called Carrickgallogly...whenthe gallowglasses were hored by an irish chieftain...maybe coz they had horses and were cavalry? they were given a townland area to feed themselves...well rob their tenant farmers of milk and meat anyhow so maybe thats the origin of the townland name and the surname


quinny
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Paul Kelly
post 2nd Mar 2009, 05:54pm
Post #187


Super Lord Provost
*****
Posts: 420
Joined: 10th Feb 2006
From: Gaborone, Botswana
Member No.: 2,956
Hi Quinny.

I enjoyed reading your comments. I am sure you must have read my post about the Agnew surname earlier in the thread which prompted you to post.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.ph...st&p=163097

In the earlier post I said Agnew is a Scottish surname originating in West Galloway (Wigtownshire) and that the Agnews of Galloway are said to be of Norman origin. Brian, you are right to say that the Norman Agnew family originally settled in County Antrim (Larne) in the 12th/13th century during the Norman Invasion of Ireland. They then relocated to Wigtownshire (West Galloway) in the 14th century well before the 16th century Scottish Reformation. Protestant Agnews from Galloway returned to Ulster during the 17th century Scottish Plantations.

The native Irish (or possibly Gallowglass) O'Gnimh or O'Gnive family were hereditary bards to the O'Neill chieftains in Ulster and members of this family are known to have Anglicised their surname as Agnew in the years following the Plantations.

Your comments about the Normans settling in east Ulster reminded me of a post which I had made some time back in this thread about R1b1c7 (now referred to as R1b1b2e) Y-chromosome DNA.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.ph...st&p=198534

In the post I said the largest concentration of R1b1b2e is found in west Ulster followed by south Ulster. I mentioned that the 3rd largest concentration is probably found in south west Scotland (Galloway, south Ayrshire). I was trying to come up for with possible reasons for R1b1c7 showing up among some 'indigenous' Scottish families in south west Scotland. I was recently reading that when the Normans invaded east Ulster (Antrim and Down) in the late 12th century, some native Gaelic Irish famies fled east Ulster and settled in Scotland. Some fled north and settled in Argyll while others fled east and settled in Galloway and south Ayrshire. This might explain why R1b1b2e can be found in some 'native' Scottish families from Galloway and Ayrshire.

As I mentioned before in post #76 of this topic, Mac an Ghalloglaigh (MacGallogly) is a Gallowglass surname - meaning son of the Galloglass - and was originally found in County Donegal. The surname must have been used by descendants of some of the Scottish Gallowglasses from southern Argyll who settled in Donegal in the 14th century. The surname can still be found in Ulster and north Connacht in the Anglicised forms of Gallogly, Gollogly, Gillogly or English (for some inexplicable reason). Although no longer found in County Donegal, the Gallogly/Gollogly/Gillogly surname can still be found in the neighbouring counties of Fermanagh, Tyrone, Armagh and Leitrim. It is possible that members of the Mac an Galloglaigh (McGallogly) family in Donegal were absorbed by the large native Gaelic Irish Gallagher (O'Gallchobhair) family of Donegal. The Gallaghers are said to be direct descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages and Gallagher is the most common surname in County Donegal.


--------------------
From every mountainside, let freedom ring. Martin Luther King
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
*Iain Mac Gille Andrias*
post 23rd Mar 2009, 01:50pm
Post #188






Hi there,

Just had a look at the opening post in this thread and although it contains much I'm afraid to say that key parts of it are wide of the mark in regards to the history of Scotland.

Firstly it is in inaccurate to state that 'Gaelic has never been spoken by the majority of people in Scotland'. Studies of the place names show that the Gaelic was wide spread and given that Scotland was founded as a 'Gaelic state' (the Scots where Gaels who gave our country its name) in reponse to the threat of the Angles / Saxons to the south it can be concluded that Gaelic was the language of the state and thus of the majority.

The decline of Gaelic in Scotland is fundementally tied into the development of the concept of Highland and Lowland that did not start until later 15th century. This is where the reference to Highland Scots as 'Wild Irish' comes from, it has nothing to do with the fact that people are somehow different. To say the lowland Scots had more in common with large parts of Northern England is also false. These people were historic enemies and this can be seen in the fact that the vesion of English they started using they called 'Scots'. The use of this term was also a political statement by those in Scotland in regard to the ownership of the terms 'Scots'. At the end of the day 'Scots' in whatever form is just English, the language of Scotland is Gaidhlig.

As regards the Gaidhlig language itself, it is false to say that Scots Gaelic evolved from a merger between Old Irish and the Pictish language. Current thinking suggests that the Pictish language was smiliar to 'Welsh' and this language fell into disuse following the meger of Dalriada and Alba. Modern Scots Gaelic and Irish Gealic are dialects of the same language.

Any differences in the languages today is primarily due to their enforced seperation. This is due to two key points:

1. Plantation of Ulster broke the bridge across the north channel thus seperating the two Gaelteachd. In fact this was a key driver behind this event.
2. Those who frequently moved bewteen the two Gaelteachd with high ranking members of society, chief, bards etc and they actually spoke another form of Gaelic called 'Classical Gaelic'

The use of Mac in front of names was a Gaelic tradition but one that developed in the early medieval period. Pre this the names were of the O form. For example the founders of my clan originally held the name O'Beolain. It has been suggested that if the cutluture had been allowed to develop properly in Ireland without English interference then all O names would gradually have been replaced with Mac names. Interestingly before Culloden and the final breakdown in Scotland the Mac names were changing. The leaders of Clan Domhnall (MacDonald) were starting to use the prefix Mhic and it seems likely that this would have developed further. The reason for this is believed to related to how clan leaders saw themselves in relation to the people of the clan.

Thanks,
Iain
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
drew1952
post 24th Mar 2009, 12:34pm
Post #189


Visitor
***
Posts: 41
Joined: 24th Feb 2009
From: Birmingham UK
Member No.: 6,582
It's all grand is it not. laugh.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TeeHeeHee
post 24th Mar 2009, 01:28pm
Post #190


Mega City Key Holder
******
Posts: 14,261
Joined: 25th Jan 2009
From: German/French/Swiss border town on the River Rhein
Member No.: 6,448
Fascinating stuff from start to finish.
Paul and Co. deserve a great round of thanks for this extremely interesting thread and the work they do to make GG such an addictive site.


--------------------
"Destiny is a good thing to accept when it's going your way. When it isn't, don't call it destiny; call it injustice, treachery, or simple bad luck.”
― Joseph Heller, God Knows
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Paul Kelly
post 24th Mar 2009, 05:06pm
Post #191


Super Lord Provost
*****
Posts: 420
Joined: 10th Feb 2006
From: Gaborone, Botswana
Member No.: 2,956
QUOTE (Iain Mac Gille Andrias @ 23rd Mar 2009, 03:37pm) *
Hi there,

Just had a look at the opening post in this thread and although it contains much I'm afraid to say that key parts of it are wide of the mark in regards to the history of Scotland.


Hi Iain.

I am fascinated by Irish and Scottish history. I am particularly interested in the influence of the Scottish Gallowglass settlements in Ulster, an event which happened in pre-Plantation times. I have read and learned a lot since making my introductory post in this thread. You are not the first person to criticise my opening post, though I don't think it is as bad as you make out.

Here is a previous criticism of my introductory post and my reply.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.ph...st&p=206631

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.ph...st&p=206683

As I said to Don, I have written many subsequent posts which qualify and modify some of the points I made in my earlier posts. For example, in post #111, I discuss at length that a form of Scottish Gaelic - called Galwegian - was once spoken in Galloway and south Ayrshire (Carrick).

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.ph...st&p=198534

I made a further comment on post #111 in post #187 above.

Iain, I enjoyed reading the points in your post - some of which are speculative - and I agree that Scots Gaelic was probably influenced very little by the Pictish language. However, it is undoubtedly the case that the Picts of central and northern Scotland together with the Romanized Britons of southern Scotland heavily outnumbered the Gaelic Scoti of Dalriada. The complete demise of the Pictish and British (Cumbric) languages in Scotland is a mystery. In addition, we shouldn't forget the large settlements of Angles in southern Scotland and Vikings in the northern and westen coastal regions and the later Norman and Flemish settlements in primarily southern and eastern Scotland.

As regards Irish and Scottish Gaelic, there were many different dialects. Even within the single county in northwest Ireland - County Donegal - there were 2 distinct dialects of Irish Gaelic. The Irish Gaelic spoken in east Donegal (including Inishowen) was different from the dialect spoken in west Donegal. What you describe as 'Classical Gaelic' sounds very theoretical.

If you find the time you could read through some of my other posts. eg

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.ph...st&p=209906

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.ph...st&p=210724

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.ph...st&p=210925

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.ph...st&p=213431

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.ph...st&p=213567

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.ph...st&p=213574

I welcome any more comments, suggestions and criticisms.

Paul


--------------------
From every mountainside, let freedom ring. Martin Luther King
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
*Iain Mac Gille Andrias*
post 25th Mar 2009, 11:37am
Post #192






Hi Paul,

Apologies if I came across as overly critical that was not my intention, your thread contains so much and is very interesting. I am not suggesting it was in any way bad, I was just hoping that I could add a slightly different viewpoint and provide some clarification, even if it is the case that some of it is speculative.

I too find the topic of Gallowglass very interesting and in particular the expolits of Alasdair Mac Colla.

Here are a list of Scots Gaelic sources that might be off use in your continued research:

1. Red book of Clanranald, Niall MacMhuirich - Gaelic history of the Macdonalds
2. Black book of Clanranald, Beaton(?) - Addition / retake of 1 with lots information related to Antrim (thinking is author was closely tied to Earl of Antrim)
3. A Description of the Western Isles of Scotland, Martin Martin
4. Book of the Dean of Lismore (Leabhar Deathan Lios Mir)
5. Statutes of Iona

Just a comment on progenitor stories as these are facinating items. It might be obvious but people should remember that these can not be taken literally, it was often the case that they were altered to suit the poliitcal situation of the day. For example the Clan Campbell have over time has three different stories, a Gaelic story, a Norman French story and a British story. These were developed in line with their politics. The Gaelic story is the root and is tied in with their place in foundation of the Scottish state. The French Norman story developed in the later medieval period as the prestige of Norman France grew and also with their increased influence in the Scottish court (this can also be seen in Ireland with the 'Fitz' type names). The British story, playing on the idea of the Welsh Britons in Strathclyde, came around the time of the Union of Crowns and the foundation of the British state where the Campbells aligned themselves with the crown in their on going internal struggle with the Clan Donald. As they say not all is as it seems.

Hope this helps.

Iain



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
*Mari' Brown nee HARKIN*
post 26th Mar 2009, 10:47am
Post #193






Hi Paul

What a brilliant contribution you have made to 'who are the Irish/Scots.

I stumbled across this forum and haven'y had time to read all pages, but I've searched for the least common of my family names HARKIN/HARKAN and it's not one you seem to have commented on.

(My other family names include O'Roarke, Prior, McGovern, McCartan, Honeyman. All but the latter are quite common and I thought it would bemore difficult to trace back the 'right' O'Rourkes' etc. so have
concentrated on HARKIN)

At one time I had thought HARKIN/HARKAN had come from the Norwegians who invaded Inishowen Donegal in the 11/12C. However O Earchan is given as the gaelic form of the name in some sources, so that would make it the clan name of a small unsuccessful - in numbers, old Irish sept from Inishowen.

Until 40 years ago the name was only found in any numbers in Donegal. (In the early'70's nearly ever family business in Moville was owned by a HARKIN, but except for a barbers,the name has all but disappeared when I last looked in 2006.)

It crops up in small numbers in the cities of Derry , Glasgow the UK & USA, where ever the starving Irish emmigrated to in the 19C. or where ever the brothers of the 'american brides' made good in the early 20C.

Our Harkins are one of the few families located outside of Donegal and listed in Griffiths located in Fenagh Co Leitrim in the 1850s. Here is the crux of the mystery. Oral history tells of brothers who moved in to the area to work as baliffs. We assume this was to do the 'dirty work' for the landlords local agent and that the landlord had estates in Donegal from where the family was moved.

(Was balliff a clan 'trade'? In the 'Hanging Gale' a novel loosley based around the family history of the McGann family - the Liverpool actiors, set in Donegal in the famine years the balliff was also a HARKIN.)

Plot thickens further though because these ballif brothers appeared to have settled in three adjoining townland all close to Fenagh Abbey and another adjoining townland DRUMHARKIN! Does this indicate that
there were HARKINs in south Leitrim prior to the upheavals of populations after the famine years.

Paul do you have any of your own comments or other links I can follow? I will check out the Ulster University DNA project write -ups referred to in your ealier blogs.

I am finding genealogy records I could access for free 5/6 years ago have been bought up by some of the Genealogy web businesses and I can only access them by paying subscriptions. I choose not to do this. I think it's disgracefull that UK public records have been sold on by the government and disappeared from the public domaine, after all this information was collected by/archived by local/national government civil
servants, paid for by the taxpayer!

Finally I'm definitely saving this site to my favourites, largely because of your contributions Paul.

Regards
Mari'
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
drew1952
post 26th Mar 2009, 12:43pm
Post #194


Visitor
***
Posts: 41
Joined: 24th Feb 2009
From: Birmingham UK
Member No.: 6,582
If your feeling lonely and have no place tae go just have a read of GGB and then your in the know or at least some 'yin 'll have the answer HEY ON YOU GO lads 'n' lassies it's greeeeeeat! so 'tis
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Paul Kelly
post 26th Mar 2009, 08:45pm
Post #195


Super Lord Provost
*****
Posts: 420
Joined: 10th Feb 2006
From: Gaborone, Botswana
Member No.: 2,956
Thanks for your interesting contributions Iain and I agree with you that some progenitor stories are questionable to say the least. I will look out for the Scots Gaelic sources you mention.

Campbell is a fascinating Scottish surname which I have written a lot about it and I have also written a lot about the native Gaelic Irish Campbell family of County Tyrone and the mysterious Scottish Galloglass Campbell family of County Donegal.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.ph...st&p=148478

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.ph...st&p=148323

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.ph...st&p=148343

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.ph...st&p=161385

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.ph...st&p=181807

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.ph...st&p=185327


Thanks Mari.

I have briefly mentioned the Harkin surname before in the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'. It is a County Donegal surname and it seems that most of the Donegal people with the surname Harkin who settled in Glasgow in the mid/late 19th century had an 's' added to their surname. The form Harkins is much more common in Glasgow. Another County Donegal surname that this happened to is the Diver (or Dever) surname. Most of the Glaswegian/Scottish descendants of this Donegal family spell their surname Divers (or Devers).

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.ph...st&p=149271

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/

I recently came across an interesting website about a Donegal family with the surname Divers who settled in Glasgow and Dundee in the 19th century. I actually stumbled across the website by accident while researching the native Gaelic Irish surname of Mac Giolla Pheadair - the son of the follower of St Peter - from south west Ulster (west Fermanagh and south Donegal) and north Connacht (east Sligo and north Leitrim), a surname which has been Anglicised as Gilfeather, Kilfeather, Gilfedder or Kilfedder.

http://members.tripod.com/family_divers/

I have also mentioned the McGovern and McCartan surnames before in the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'. If you go on to that topic you will see a 'Search Topic' rectangular box near the bottom of the page. Enter the surname you are interested in.

I have never seen the BBC drama 'The Hanging Gale' which I know is set in County Donegal. However, by chance on TV here, I recently saw the movie 'Dancing at Lughnasa' starring Meryl Streep which is also set in County Donegal. I enjoyed it.

Paul


--------------------
From every mountainside, let freedom ring. Martin Luther King
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

18 Pages V  « < 11 12 13 14 15 > » 
Fast ReplyReply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 19th Jun 2019

All material in the site Glasgow Guide is copyright of the Glasgow Guide Organisation. This material is for your own private use only, and no part of the site may be reproduced, amended, modified, copied, or transmitted to third parties, by any means whatsoever without the prior written permission of the copyright owner. All rights reserved.

Glasgow Hotels: book cheap hotels in Glasgow online now.