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> Scottish Independence, About voting yes/no
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bilbo.s
post 21st Mar 2017, 01:19pm
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https://greens.scot/blog/patrick-s-open-rep...pendence-letter


In contrast to Dykejumper's nonsense posts.


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Dykejumper
post 21st Mar 2017, 03:39pm
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See The Green Party dream below,looks like they have read that Utopia book, they believe in honest govt,how do they square that with blackmailing the Selfie Queen to get her budget passed?
==============================================================


Imagine a world of efficient and welcoming public services, coordinated action on climate change, equality,
workers’ rights, an economy that works for people and planet at a human scale, restorative justice, and real
care for the future, including young people now.
Imagine a world in which we protect the planet, its land and its oceans, and the plants, animals and people
that live on it.
Imagine a world of security for all, of social security as opportunity not dependency, of lives lived more
locally, with services close to where people need them and connected by affordable, energy-efficient
public transport.
Imagine a government that believes in society, in our common humanity, in a culture of hope, and in our
capacity to govern ourselves. Imagine a government that believes in the common good, and that the best
way of achieving it is by working for each other, rather than against each other. Imagine honest government
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bilbo.s
post 22nd Mar 2017, 10:15am
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Some have aspirations, dreams and hopes . Nothing wrong with aiming high!


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john.mcn
post 22nd Mar 2017, 07:09pm
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Neil Findlay MSP shames every single SNP MSP into silence.




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“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”
Mikhail Gorbachev
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john.mcn
post 23rd Mar 2017, 10:44pm
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An interview with Jim Sillars from the other day

https://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/jim...ideos/152289412

Another video of him speaking at a NO2NP (named person). In these videos he speaks his views and its these views that criticise the SNP hierarchy that have made him a target for the netnumpties, just check the comments on any online news story he appears in



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“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”
Mikhail Gorbachev
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john.mcn
post 25th Mar 2017, 12:14am
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Ohh I know its the Daily Record but it does point out the massive difference between Scotlands tax earnings and the money spent here (or on its behalf)..
No doubt Jagz will be along (or not) to argue that the SG's own figures are wrong and cite Wings over Scotland as his source wink.gif


QUOTE
As oil revenues fall it looks as if SNP are avoiding debate on economics of independent Scotland
On Wednesday, SNP MSP Joan McAlpine used her column in this paper to attempt to cast doubt on her own Scottish Government’s GERS figures, the official numbers that tell us how Scotland’s economy performs.

When oil was booming, McAlpine and her SNP colleagues were quick to quote GERS figures as proof that Scotland was a wealthy country, so this U-turn might seem surprising.

If McAlpine’s column represents an approved party line, it looks an awful lot as if the SNP are trying to avoid an honest debate about the economic challenges an independent Scotland would now face.

It would be like the big tobacco companies who, when faced with solid evidence of the link between smoking and cancer, focused on questioning the science and placing doubt in peoples’ minds.

When facts are your enemy, confusion and doubt are your friends.

To be fair, we’ve yet to see the leadership of the SNP suggest that we can’t trust our own government’s figures - but we’ve also yet to see them shut-down those within their own party who, like Joan, seem to be becoming GERS-deniers.

Maybe the SNP hierarchy think a bit of doubt and confusion is helpful?

So let’s look at McAlpine’s claims more closely. She incorrectly refers to GERS as “the UK Treasury’s understanding” of Scotland’s economy; she really should know that in fact they represent the Scottish Government’s understanding. So how can she suggest her own Government’s figures are “absurd”?

She relies entirely on the wild-eyed claims of one Professor Richard Murphy. He’s a chartered accountant and the self-proclaimed architect of “Corbynomics” - but let’s not worry about his CV, let’s worry about whether what he said is true.

Those hoping to foster confusion and doubt would be delighted for people like me to fill column inches explaining why Murphy is wrong.

That way they stop us talking about what the figures actually tell us. McAlpine’s advice to people being presented with inconvenient truths was hardly subtle: “throw three words at them: Professor Richard Murphy”.

Who needs to deal with facts when you’ve been taught the name of a tame professor who gives you permission to ignore them?

For what it’s worth, Murphy clearly doesn’t understood the GERS figures. He doesn’t realise that the Scottish Government compile our export data, so it isn’t “the UK Government making this up”.


Expert predicts IndyRef2 date for 2021 after correctly guessing Brexit result
He fails to grasp that it’s the Scottish Government’s Chief Economist who decides on the assumptions behind the GERS figures, so nothing is “what the UK Government decides it should be”.

I explain more of his mistakes on my blog (“Chokkablog”), but his biggest error is to claim that the figures can’t be trusted simply because estimates are used.

I asked a couple of exceptionally well qualified economics professors to comment on Murphy’s claims and you can see what they had to say on this page.

Put simply: nearly all economic statistics are estimates, but to be qualified as National Statistics (as GERS are) the figures have to be shown to be trustworthy. End of discussion.

So let’s focus instead on why some Yes supporters now want to deny the economic reality described in GERS - what are they so desperate to distract you from?

Well the figures effectively tell us four things:

Firstly they tell us how much tax revenue the Scottish economy generates from our current economic activity and the taxes we’re all used to paying: income tax, VAT, council tax and the like.

Secondly they tell us how much money is spent to deliver the public services we’re all used to receiving. So that’s things like health, education, pensions, social welfare, policing and so on.

Thirdly they show how much it costs us if we pay our population share of expenses incurred for the benefit of the UK as a whole - mainly defence, debt interest and international affairs.

Finally they show what happens if you take that revenue and subtract those costs. In the most recent year that shows we’d be in the red by £15bn – that’s the infamous £15bn “Scottish deficit”.

Of course that wouldn’t actually be Scotland’s deficit if we were independent, but all credible economists and responsible politicians (and even the SNP) use the GERS figures as the starting point to work out what an independent Scotland’s figures might look like.

So, for example, we could assume we’d spend £0.6bn less than we’re currently allocated of UK-wide costs (like defence) and we could assume we’ll generate £7.9bn a year of oil revenue.

That’s what the SNP’s Independence White Paper did last time round. They based our ability to maintain public spending on a reckless gamble about oil revenues. In fact, oil revenues this year will be approximately zero.

If you understand GERS the implication is clear: to survive as an independent country, Scotland would have to make dramatic spending cuts, cuts far more painful than any “Westminster austerity” we’ve seen to date.

Are the SNP prepared to be honest about the price we’d all pay for independence? If they allow high profile MSPs like Joan McAlpine to publicly rubbish their own figures, it’s surely not a good sign.

In the interest of honest and informed debate, let’s hope the SNP leadership condemn those who pretend we don’t know basic facts about our economy and instead face the difficult truths those facts reveal.


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“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”
Mikhail Gorbachev
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bilbo.s
post 26th Mar 2017, 09:36am
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AN ORDINARY GUY IN FIFE PAYS TRIBUTE TO ZIGGY MARLEY’S ‘TOMORROW PEOPLE’.

How often have you heard this?

I CAN’T STAND NICOLA STURGEON SO I’M NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE.

I’ve heard it almost as often as this;

I CAN’T STAND ALEX SALMOND SO I’M NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE:

Sigh.
Can we examine just what people are actually saying when they throw out these lazy, dismissive, narrow-minded cliches? Essentially they’re admitting that they would cast a hugely important, historically significant vote (affecting future generations) based on their opinion of an individual, one that may or may not be around, in political circles, for the next decade or so.
I’d like to examine what that opinion is actually based on later but, for the now, can we persuade these people to look at the bigger picture? I bloody hope so! It could be the difference between winning Scotland’s future or surrendering it to Westminster Tory rule for the foreseeable future.
How do we make these people see that the situation Scotland finds itself in right now is far more important than any individual? In fact it’s far more more important that any political party and it’s far more important than our whole generation…...even if this ‘generation’ is only just over two years old. ;-)
We’re talking about the future of a whole nation here (for hundreds of, maybe more, years) and who makes the decisions about how that nation goes forward.
Ziggy Marley said “you don’t know your past, you don’t know your future”. I appreciate it’s been talked about often enough but let’s look at where Scotland finds itself in comparison to Norway. I keep seeing unionists blethering about the fact that North Sea oil is nonviable. That’s very much up for debate and (speaking to people, in the industry, on this page) very questionable.
In the meantime, Norway’s tax revenues from petroleum activities were about NOK 51 billion in 2016 The net cash flow from direct ownership in fields through the SFDI system was NOK 56 billion. The government’s total net cash flow in 2016, including the dividend from Statoil and various fees, was NOK 124,5 billion, or about 13 % of total government revenues in the National Budget. By comparison, the net government cash flow from petroleum activities was in 2015 NOK 218 billion. The net government cash flow is expected to be around NOK 138 billion in 2017. The pound is around 10.5 Norwegian Krone BTW. In 2016 the UK oil wealth was about enough to grease Gordon Brown up enough to slip him back into the media spotlight!
AH…….I hear them cry. That’s because much of the Norwegian profit came from earnings off the oil fund they have set up, rather than directly from oil. Does that not beg a question? Where is the UK’s oil fund and how much is it there to bail us out in the hard times? Let me save some people a wee Google here. The UK did not (only one of two oil rich nations along with Iraq) set an oil fund up! What do we have to lean on instead? £1.835 TRILLION of debt, that’s what! That’s what Westminster’s done with this ‘UK’ oil wealth. Should we seriously continue to place our tourism, fisheries, food, renewable energy, drinks, agriculture, gaming etc and, yes, oil industries in the hands of these people. “You don’t know your past, you don’t know your future.”
Back to earlier. What have people based their opinions of Nicola Sturgeon on? For the most part - the mainstream media. Look and listen to the language they use. “Sturgeon demands….”, “separatists insist….”, “divisive SNP…..” etc. Too many people lap that up without thinking, without even the notion of doing a wee bit of their own research. What have the SNP ever done for us? Aye, right! PLENTY.
Nicola, Alex, the SNP are nasty little nationalists hell-bent on breaking up a union that is so perfect for all of us. Who do they think they are? Trying to get 62% of Scottish voters heard.
I take it that all the people basing opinions on Nicola Sturgeon think that Theresa May, Jeremy Corbyn, Kezia Dugdale and Ruth Davidson are the people to lead us into a safe, happy and prosperous future. I can’t be certain though because I’ve never seen or heard any of them make a cogent argument for that.


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john.mcn
post 26th Mar 2017, 03:18pm
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You forget that the SNP have used Margret Thatcher as a poster tory for Independence..


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“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”
Mikhail Gorbachev
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DannyH
post 26th Mar 2017, 10:46pm
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QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 26th Mar 2017, 09:36am) *
AN ORDINARY GUY IN FIFE PAYS TRIBUTE TO ZIGGY MARLEY’S ‘TOMORROW PEOPLE’.

How often have you heard this?

I CAN’T STAND NICOLA STURGEON SO I’M NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE.

I’ve heard it almost as often as this;

I CAN’T STAND ALEX SALMOND SO I’M NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE:

Sigh.
Can we examine just what people are actually saying when they throw out these lazy, dismissive, narrow-minded cliches? Essentially they’re admitting that they would cast a hugely important, historically significant vote (affecting future generations) based on their opinion of an individual, one that may or may not be around, in political circles, for the next decade or so.
I’d like to examine what that opinion is actually based on later but, for the now, can we persuade these people to look at the bigger picture? I bloody hope so! It could be the difference between winning Scotland’s future or surrendering it to Westminster Tory rule for the foreseeable future.
How do we make these people see that the situation Scotland finds itself in right now is far more important than any individual? In fact it’s far more more important that any political party and it’s far more important than our whole generation…...even if this ‘generation’ is only just over two years old. ;-)
We’re talking about the future of a whole nation here (for hundreds of, maybe more, years) and who makes the decisions about how that nation goes forward.
Ziggy Marley said “you don’t know your past, you don’t know your future”. I appreciate it’s been talked about often enough but let’s look at where Scotland finds itself in comparison to Norway. I keep seeing unionists blethering about the fact that North Sea oil is nonviable. That’s very much up for debate and (speaking to people, in the industry, on this page) very questionable.
In the meantime, Norway’s tax revenues from petroleum activities were about NOK 51 billion in 2016 The net cash flow from direct ownership in fields through the SFDI system was NOK 56 billion. The government’s total net cash flow in 2016, including the dividend from Statoil and various fees, was NOK 124,5 billion, or about 13 % of total government revenues in the National Budget. By comparison, the net government cash flow from petroleum activities was in 2015 NOK 218 billion. The net government cash flow is expected to be around NOK 138 billion in 2017. The pound is around 10.5 Norwegian Krone BTW. In 2016 the UK oil wealth was about enough to grease Gordon Brown up enough to slip him back into the media spotlight!
AH…….I hear them cry. That’s because much of the Norwegian profit came from earnings off the oil fund they have set up, rather than directly from oil. Does that not beg a question? Where is the UK’s oil fund and how much is it there to bail us out in the hard times? Let me save some people a wee Google here. The UK did not (only one of two oil rich nations along with Iraq) set an oil fund up! What do we have to lean on instead? £1.835 TRILLION of debt, that’s what! That’s what Westminster’s done with this ‘UK’ oil wealth. Should we seriously continue to place our tourism, fisheries, food, renewable energy, drinks, agriculture, gaming etc and, yes, oil industries in the hands of these people. “You don’t know your past, you don’t know your future.”
Back to earlier. What have people based their opinions of Nicola Sturgeon on? For the most part - the mainstream media. Look and listen to the language they use. “Sturgeon demands….”, “separatists insist….”, “divisive SNP…..” etc. Too many people lap that up without thinking, without even the notion of doing a wee bit of their own research. What have the SNP ever done for us? Aye, right! PLENTY.
Nicola, Alex, the SNP are nasty little nationalists hell-bent on breaking up a union that is so perfect for all of us. Who do they think they are? Trying to get 62% of Scottish voters heard.
I take it that all the people basing opinions on Nicola Sturgeon think that Theresa May, Jeremy Corbyn, Kezia Dugdale and Ruth Davidson are the people to lead us into a safe, happy and prosperous future. I can’t be certain though because I’ve never seen or heard any of them make a cogent argument for that.

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Hello Bilbo

This is my response to your above post.

All we have to do is re-write the opening lines of the above quote.

During the Scottish referendum, I heard many people say,

"I CAN'T STAND TONY BLAIR, GORDON BROWN, or DAVID CAMERON, so I am going to vote for Independence. We actually did examine what they were saying."

Apparently, more people examined what Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond said, or more to the point, what they didn't say, SUCH AS WHAT CURRENCY WE WOULD BE USING. SO WE LOST.

Maybe that doesn't matter to the wee guy from Fife. He is probably still using wee bawbees for his currency.

Look at the closing statement about Theresa May, Jeremy Corbyn etc. He has lost all credibility using that childish reasoning.


Danny Harris
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bilbo.s
post 27th Mar 2017, 02:39pm
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https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2017/03/...vative-jam-2-0/


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JAGZ1876
post Today, 09:28am
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QUOTE (john.mcn @ 26th Mar 2017, 04:18pm) *
You forget that the SNP have used Margret Thatcher as a poster tory for Independence..


Yes, Thatcher gave the Tories a bad name in Scotland. unsure.gif
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JAGZ1876
post Today, 09:32am
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QUOTE (john.mcn @ 25th Mar 2017, 01:14am) *
Ohh I know its the Daily Record but it does point out the massive difference between Scotlands tax earnings and the money spent here (or on its behalf)..
No doubt Jagz will be along (or not) to argue that the SG's own figures are wrong and cite Wings over Scotland as his source wink.gif


John, if you think Scotland is to poor to support itself then vote NO for Tory rule, and the GERS figures are not the SG's they are produced by the UK treasury.

But you knew that anyway.
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