Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Glasgow Boards/Forums _ Family History _ Common Irish Surnames In Scotland

Posted by: Paul Kelly 29th Jul 2006, 02:33pm

In the aftermath of the Potato Famine in Ireland, a number of the Irish immigrants who came to Scotland in the 1840s and 1850s changed their surnames and religion in order to conceal their roots and avoid discrimination. In documented cases, Sweeney was changed to Swan, O'Carroll to Charles, O'Donnell to Dodds. The Irish immigrants were viewed by the locals as undesirable, ignorant and superstitious (ie poor, uneducated and Catholic). The fact that the Irish immigrants were prepared to work for lower wages than the indigenous Scots did not help matters.
The Irish immigrants who came to Scotland from the 1860s onwards rarely changed their religion, but in many cases their surnames were recorded incorrectly by Scottish officials.
Most of the 19th century Irish immigrants to Scotland were illiterate. Several Irish surnames were often recorded as Scottish surnames. For example, the Irish surname of McCormack was often recorded in the Scottish form of McCormick. Other examples were McFadden(Irish) being recorded as McFadyen(Scottish), McLaughlin(Irish) as McLachlan(Scottish), McDonnell(Irish) as McDonald(Scottish), McCullough(I) as McCulloch(S), Duffy(Irish) as Duff(Scottish), Byrne(Irish) as Burns(Scottish).
Even some Irish surnames which had no Scottish equivalent were recorded in a Scottish manner (ie given a Scottish spelling).
For example, Gallagher was usually recorded as Gallacher,
Dougherty as Docherty.
The following Irish surnames are commonly found in Scotland, particularly in the Glasgow area:
Kelly, Docherty, Gallacher, Boyle, Coyle, Murphy, Reilly, Connor, Connolly, Donnelly, Sweeney, Rafferty, Lafferty, Devine, Devlin, Bonar, Byrne, Quinn, Molloy, Kane, Lynch, Daly, Dougan, Brennan, Dempsey, Duffy, Friel, Gillan, Healy, Ward, Sullivan, Meehan, Rooney, Mulligan, Flanagan, Carrigan, Flynn, Curran, Keenan, Scanlon, Gormley, O'Donnell, O'Neill, O'Brien, McLaughlin, McVeigh, McManus, McFadden, McCluskey, McCormick, McCabe, McCann, McGuire, McGinty, McGlinchey, McGinness, McNulty, McDaid, McBride, McMenamin, McGonigle, McMonagle, McGoldrick, McGinley, McGlynn, McFall, McGrath, McSorley, McAteer, McCarthy, McCafferty, McDonagh, McGurk, McGee, McInally, McMahon, McDermott, McMullan, McAvoy, McAuley, McCulloch, McNamee, McKenna, McShane, McGowan.
I hope I have not missed out your surname.

The 8 most common Irish surnames in Scotland, in descending order, are : Kelly, Murphy, Docherty, Boyle, Reilly, Gallacher, McLaughlin, O'Donnell.
Kelly, Murphy, Docherty, Boyle and Reilly are among the top 100 most common surnames in Scotland, with Kelly the highest at position 38.

The fact that most of the Irish immigrants to Scotland came from the northern counties of Ireland is reflected by the above surnames. Surnames like Kelly, Docherty, Boyle, Gallacher, McLaughlin, McMenamin are very common in northern and western Ulster (Donegal, Derry, Tyrone, etc). Surnames like Reilly, Murphy, McGuire, McManus, McKenna, McShane are very common in southern and eastern Ulster (Fermanagh, Monaghan, Armagh, etc).

Posted by: stratson 29th Jul 2006, 05:12pm

Am afraid you did miss out mine,,,MURRAY. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: rosie-k 29th Jul 2006, 05:37pm

another irish name, shawnessy, or O'shaughnessy.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 1st Aug 2006, 01:18pm

Hi Rosie and Stratson.

The list of Irish surnames commonly found in Scotland which I gave the other day is far from exhaustive. There are many others such as
Conroy, Cairney (Kearney), Cairns (Kearns), Brogan, Scullion, Mulhearn, Mulgrew, Mulholland, Callaghan, Donnachy, Conaghan, Coll, Fallon, Sharkey, Toner, Moan, Heaney, Bradley, Slaven, Hegarty, Farrell, Fitzpatrick, McGuigan, McConville, McCaig, McGarry, McGlennon, McKeown, McQuade, McColgan, McRory (to name just a few more!).

I should clarify that I have been refering only to Catholic Irish immigrants. As I have previously mentioned, most of the Irish immigrants to Scotland were from the northern counties of Ireland. A significant minority of these immigrants - around 25% - were in fact Protestants. The Protestant Irish - unlike their Catholic counterparts - were quickly assimilated into Scottish society. Most of the Protestant Irish immigrants had Scottish surnames. (They were largely descendants of the Scottish Plantation of Ulster in the early 1600s.) Moreover they shared the same religion as the native Scots - Presbyterianism.

I recently came across 2 terms in the Internet encyclopedia Wikipedia while browsing on the net.

Scots-Irish : Northern Irish Protestants of mainly Scottish descent

Irish-Scots : Scots of mainly Catholic Irish descent

I have heard of the Scots-Irish before, but it is my first time to come across the term 'Irish-Scots'

Posted by: Paul Kelly 1st Aug 2006, 02:54pm

It has been well documented that Catholic Irish immigrants to Scotland and their descendants used to experience a lot of discrimination at the hands of the native Scots. Since the end of the 2nd World War this overt discrimination has largely disappeared. Personally, I see little sign of it these days whenever I visit Glasgow. There is now a large Catholic middle class, and Catholics can be found in every walk of life. (Only a few generations ago it was unheard of for Catholics to be employed in Scottish banking as well as several other establishment professions.) Years ago - when these things mattered - one way of figuring out a person's religion was to ask them which school they attended or even just their surname. It was widely assumed that an Irish surname indicated you were a Catholic, a Scottish surname that you were a Protestant. This of course could be very misleading.

Since the early days of Irish immigration to Glasgow, there had always been mixed marriages (Protestant and Catholic intermarriages). They were few in number at first. However, by the 1920s, around a quarter of all marriages conducted in Glasgow's Catholic churches were mixed marriages. By the 1950s it was around a third. By the 1980s it was around a half. The children of these mixed marriages were nearly always raised as Catholics. Due to the large number of mixed marriages over the past 100 or so years, a Catholic in Glasgow today is just as likely to have a Scottish surname as an Irish surname.

Recently I was reading an article about the British Cabinet Minister, John Reid, the MP for Airdrie and the current Secretary of State for Home Affairs in Tony Blair's government. Reid was born in Bellshill in 1947 and grew up in the small coal mining village of Cardowan, near Stepps, North Lanarkshire. He was raised a Catholic. While Reid's parents were Catholic, his grandparents were of mixed denomination. For example, his paternal grandfather was a Scottish Presbyterian and his paternal grandmother was an Irish Catholic. Reid's family history is a good illustration of how common mixed marriages have been in the Greater Glasgow area since the end of the 1st World War. When Reid left St Patrick's RC High School, Coatbridge in the mid 1960s he noticed that many of his schoolmates with Irish surnames had much more difficulty finding employment than those with Scottish surnames (like him!).

That brings me back to the thorny issue of government funded Catholic schools. Personally I think Catholic schools have encouraged people to discriminate against Catholics - Catholics deliberately separating themselves from the rest of society. When I was doing my teacher training practice in Easterhouse in February/March 1995 I experienced the ludicrous situation of 2 half-empty secondary schools less than a stones throw away from each other - Lochend (non-denominational and the school at which I was teaching) and St Leonard's (Catholic). A student could literally call over the fence to his/her friend at the other school. Each school had capacity for about 1000 students but each had a roll of around 400. (I understand that St Leonard's has since closed but I am not sure which school its students then went to!)

Following the Reformation in the late 1500s, Catholicism was virtually obliterated from Scotland. In the 1700s there were literally no Catholics in the Scottish Lowlands and only a few pockets of Catholics in remote parts of the Scottish Highlands in places such as Arisaig, Mallaig, South Uist and Barra.

According to the 2001 Scottish census, around 1 in 6 of the Scottish population is Catholic. In Edinburgh it is around 1 in 8. In Dundee it is around 1 in 5. In Glasgow it is around 1 in 3. In the Coatbridge/Bellshill area of North Lanarkshire it is around 1 in 2. These figures alone illustrate the impact that Irish immigration has had on modern Scottish society.

Posted by: Riddrieperson 1st Aug 2006, 08:37pm

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 29th Jul 2006, 04:50 PM)
I hope I have not missed out your surname.

Aye ye did.Miss out my surname that is.RYAN. from the Ryan clan in Killalla,County Mayo. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Heather 1st Aug 2006, 10:35pm

Missed mine out too. ' Curran ' from County Waterford.

Posted by: Dexter St. Clair 1st Aug 2006, 11:19pm

QUOTE
(I understand that St Leonard's has since closed but I am not sure which school its students then went to!)
St. Andrew's Secondary which is now the Top state school in Scotland and might give some reason as to why Catholic tax payers continue to choose Catholic schools when given the choice.

QUOTE
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5074446.stm

Posted by: Isobel 2nd Aug 2006, 01:23am

Can you tell me anything about my maiden name..
McCloskey.......NOT McCluskey

Posted by: rdem 2nd Aug 2006, 10:41am

I din't find anything about the meaning of the name but it soriginally from Derry and was connected to the larger clan O'Cahan (Kane)

Posted by: stratson 2nd Aug 2006, 12:16pm

rdem, Thank you for latest info. re. Irish names .
During my geneology research discovered my paternal G/G/mothers maiden name was Kane.
On discussing this last year in Gortin with a third cousin he informed me she was really named O'Kane.

Posted by: hudggy 2nd Aug 2006, 02:21pm

You missed Kerrigan but as you put down Carrigan I do mind too much as that is my name. As you say a lot of people changed their names my family for some reason not known to me change in the 1901 census from Kerrigan to Carrigan so from then on we were all registered as Carrigan. Also you mention not being able to get work I left school in1958 and was asked by nearly every firm I applied to which school I attended I got a few knock backs even the City Bakeries which was my first job had only started to take on Catholics when I got my start.

Hudgy

 

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Aug 2006, 07:36am

Hi Dexter.

I am very much in favour of parental choice when it comes to education as long as it is economically viable. In most cases, parents know what is best for their children. Nevertheless, educating children of different religions at separate schools from the ages of 5 to 18 has obviously not helped in the alleviation of sectarianism in Glasgow and more especially in Northern Ireland.

By the way, congratulations to St Andrew's. It is great to know that the best state school in Scotland is found in the east end of Glasgow.

Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Aug 2006, 07:53am

If you do GOOGLE searches for

IRISH-SCOTS and CATEGORY IRISH-SCOTS

you will come across Wikipedia - the free internet encyclopedia - entries for both of the above.

Both entries make interesting reading, the latter giving a list of prominent Irish-Scots.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Aug 2006, 01:29pm

If you managed to do a GOOGLE search for CATEGORY IRISH-SCOTS you would have noticed that many of the prominent Irish-Scots listed are Labour Party politicians. For example, the Cabinet Minister John Reid MP, and the Speaker of the House of Commons Michael Martin MP. In fact, the Labour Party in West-Central Scotland has always enjoyed very strong support in the Irish-Scots community. Even in the 1955 General Election when the Conservative and Unionist Party won 7 of the 15 Glasgow parliamentary seats (imagine!), Glasgow's Irish-Scots community still voted overwhelmingly for the Labour Party. Most of Glasgow's Lord Provosts since the 1940s have been Irish-Scots (Patrick Dollan, Michael Kelly, Pat Lally, Peter McCann, James Shields, etc) and the Labour controlled Glasgow City Council has long been dubbed 'The Murphia'.

I should mention that the SNP's most famous supporter - actor Sean Connery - is in the list of famous Irish-Scots. A noticeable omission from the list is Dr Liam Fox MP, who narrowly missed out becoming leader of the British Conservative Party last year to David Cameron.

In the early 1900s many of the founding members of the Communist Party of Great Britain were Irish-Scots from the Glasgow area who had been brought up as Catholics. Men such as Willie Gallacher, Harry McShane, Arthur McManus, John McGovern, John McGahey and Peter Kerrigan. (Catholic Communists you might say!) Arthur McManus was in fact the 1st Chairman of the Communist Party of Great Britain (1914-1919) and when he died his ashes were taken to the Kremlin in Moscow. Some Irish-Scots socialists from the Glasgow area in the early 1900s, such as John Wheatley, Patrick Dollan and James Welsh, never joined the Communists.

Posted by: rdem 7th Aug 2006, 12:49am

My first house in Auchinairn was a scheme shaped like a horseshoe, When I lived there in the 50's the Irish names of the families were in the majority in that scheme.
Dempsey, Shields, McCann, Maguire, Laverty, Cassidy, Sally, McGraw, Rooney, Carrigan, McKinstry, Macateer, Mulherne to name a few.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 20th Aug 2006, 08:57am

I recently came across a genealogy website about the North Lanarkshire town of Coatbridge just to the east of the city of Glasgow.
In order to see it, do a GOOGLE search for

COATBRIDGE IRISH GENEALOGY PROJECT

Posted by: Paul Kelly 24th Aug 2006, 08:20am

I've often wondered what effect the large number of Irish immigrants to Glasgow has had on the Glasgow accent and the famous Glasgow Patter.

Although the Scottish terms 'Maw' and 'Paw' are commonly used in Glasgow for mum and dad, the Irish terms 'Ma' and 'Da' are also commonly used and sometimes even the affectionate Irish term 'Mammy' can be heard in Glasgow's streets.
The famous Glasgow insult for a stupid person - eejit - originates in Ireland.
In most parts of Scotland the word 'floor' is pronounced 'flair'.
In Glasgow it is pronounced 'flerr'. (Irish influence?)
Most Scottish people pronounce words such as 'top', 'drop' and 'off' as
'toap', 'droap' and 'oaff'. In Glasgow they are pronounced 'tap', 'drap' and 'aff'. (Irish influence?)
The word 'ken' as in 'Dae ye ken?' is heard all over Scotland but not in Glasgow. You don't have to travel far from the Glasgow area before you start hearing people saying 'ken'. eg Ayrshire, Stirling, Edinburgh.
In fact, 'ken' was probably once used in Glasgow but its use died out in the late 1800s. (Irish influence again?) I suspect Glaswegians considered 'ken' a word for Teuchters (rural Scots).
Glaswegians use the proper English word 'know'!
Most Scots refer to Glasgow as Glezgae.
Glaswegians, however, pronounce their home city's name with a soft 's' : Glesca.

There is an interesting website on Glasgow Patter by John Walker, from which I got some of the above ideas. To see it do a GOOGLE search for GLASGOW PATTER WALKER.

Walker writes about Lallans (the dialect of English spoken in the Lowlands of Scotland) and Ullans (the dialect of English spoken in the northern counties of Ireland which developed from the English spoken by the 17th century Lowland Scottish and Northern English Protestant Planters and the adopted English spoken by the indigenous Catholic Irish whose native tongue was Irish Gaelic.)
Since most of the Irish immigrants to Glasgow came from the northern counties of Ireland, Walker discusses how Lallans and Ullans have both influenced the way modern Glaswegians speak.

Ya eejit. Get aff the flerr!

Posted by: rdem 29th Aug 2006, 09:13am

Interesting stuff Paul..I was aware of the difference in dialect from Glasgow to other nearby areas but was glad to hear why!

I remember my older sister in law from Kirkintilloch (although from Irish ancestry, that had settled in Campsie) referred a party as a "pairty". One of those things you remember from childhood.

My great aunt from Fife (married to my great uncle Neil Bonar) was different story altogether, I used to watch her slack jawed as she spoke in the Braid Fifer accent!.

Posted by: valros 29th Aug 2006, 03:56pm

Once again Paul, interesting reading. I had an Irish Dad myself.

Valros

Posted by: weesue 29th Aug 2006, 05:57pm

Our family names (not mentioned) I know there are many variants of the names... Are -

Casey:- From an Irish surname which was derived from Ó Cathasaigh meaning "descendent of Cathasaigh". The name Cathasaigh means "vigilant" in Gaelic.

Cummiskey:- Spelling variations include: Cumiskey, Comisky, Cumisky, Comiskey, MacCumiskey, MacComiskey, Cumiskie etc.
First found in Monaghan where they were anciently seated but more recently in Longford, Cavan and Westmeath.

These are the other names in my family tree:- (I don't know how many are Irish).
Carr, Cartmill, Chalmers, Clark, Conly, Connelly, Cook, Croal, Dingwall, Duffy,Gardner, Gilliland, Gordon, Hart, Holmes, Kelso, Livingston, McConnell, McKean, Marshall, Morrison, Roache, Sproul, Turbitt, Williamson and Young.

Does anyone have any interesting info to report on any of these names?

Posted by: Paul Kelly 30th Aug 2006, 09:12am

Hi Wee Sue.

Casey and Cummiskey are certainly Irish surnames as are Carr, Conly, Connelly, Croal, Duffy, Hart and Roach.
I would say most of the other surnames you have listed are of Lowland Scots origins. Of these Scots surnames, I know Holmes, Morrison, Sproul, McKean and McConnell are commonly found in Ulster, as are possibly a couple of the others.

Sue, you have a 'mix' of surnames that are probably shared by most Glaswegians.

Cheers,

Paul

Posted by: rdem 30th Aug 2006, 09:21am

Young is also well established in Ulster. but like so many names can be very much Scottish.

Posted by: Rabbie 30th Aug 2006, 09:48am

Fascinating! Noo, heers a wee place ye might enjoy taking a gander at.

http://www.behindthename.com

Kent ah hud a few droaps o Irish blood in me, but never kent wan oh my ancesters might huv been a Bishop in Ireland!

Posted by: weesue 30th Aug 2006, 09:41pm

Wow Paul thanks... I kinda guessed that most of them originated in Ireland... But haven't checked them all out yet... Will look in detail soon to add info to my family tree.
Thanks rdem and Rabbie

Cheers guys

Posted by: Paul Kelly 16th Sep 2006, 08:19am

The last time I was home in Glasgow, I spent some time at the Mitchell Library looking through the 1871, 1881, 1891 and 1901 Glasgow census records. I was particularly interested in those areas of Glasgow which had large numbers of Irish immigrants such as Royston (formerly Garngad), Townhead, Gorbals, Hutchesontown, Bridgeton, Calton, Cowcaddens, Garscube and Anderston. If a person had been born in Ireland, then the actual county of birth was usually not recorded. The place of birth was simply stated as Ireland. However, in some streets, the actual Irish county of birth was given (thankfully!)

In those census returns where the Irish county of birth was given, I would say that around 90% of them mentioned a county from the ancient Province of Ulster:- Antrim, Armagh, Cavan, Derry, Donegal, Down, Fermanagh, Monaghan and Tyrone. Undoubtedly, the county which appeared the most was County Donegal, followed by probably County Down. There were also a few non-Ulster counties mentioned such as Mayo, Sligo, Louth and Wexford.

I think most of the 19th century Irish immigrants to Britain from the southern counties of Ireland went to places such as Liverpool via Dublin. Most of the Irish immigrants to Britain from the northern counties of Ireland settled in the Glasgow area via Belfast and Derry. There was a famous boat that used to bring many Irish immigrants to Glasgow called the Derry Boat.

Posted by: stratson 16th Sep 2006, 08:26am

Hi Paul, am wondering if "The Derry Boat" would have passenger lists, as my g/parents came to Glasgow after marraige 1873.from Co. Tyrone. wub.gif

 

Posted by: Paul Kelly 16th Sep 2006, 08:41am

Stratson,

I think the Derry Boat was actually a cattle boat that used to operate between Derry and Glasgow. It would also transport some 'human' cargo! I doubt there were any passenger lists.

Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 19th Sep 2006, 07:20am

There was another area of Glasgow in which many of the early Irish immigrants - those that came in the immediate aftermath of the Irish Potato Famine - settled in the late 1840s and early 1850s. It was an inner city area known simply at the time as District 14.

District 14 was enclosed on the north by the Trongate, on the south by Clyde Street, on the west by Stockwell Street and on the east by the Saltmarket. It was basically the inner city area between Glasgow Cross and the River Clyde and contained places such as the Briggait - Bridgegate - and Paddy's Market.

District 14 was described by newspapers of the time as a human cesspit and it was certainly Glasgow's worst slum area in the mid to late 19th century. However, by the late 19th and early 20th centuries, it had been superseded by the more famous Glasgow Irish ghettoes - the Gorbals and the Garngad.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 20th Sep 2006, 01:36pm

A number of the mid 19th century Irish immigrants to Glasgow (and Liverpool) did not spend a long time in Britain. They only used Britain as a stepping stone before moving on to the United States. For example, there is a large Docherty family in the United States, descended from Irish immigrants who passed through Scotland. These American descendants are still using the incorrect spelling - Docherty - of the Irish surname Dogherty/Dougherty that their illiterate ancestors were given when they first arrived in Scotland (from mainly Donegal.)

A few years ago, I read the introduction to a biography of the famous American actor/dancer Gene Kelly - Eugene Curran Kelly (born 1912, died 1996) - of 'Singing in the Rain' fame. The biography said Gene Kelly's (great)grandfather emigrated from Ireland (possibly Donegal) via Derry to Scotland in the mid 19th century and spent a short time working in the Dunfermline area - if I am recalling correctly - before moving on to Pittsburgh in the United States.

I mentioned in an earlier post that Kelly and Docherty are the 1st and 3rd most commonly found Irish surnames in Scotland respectively. Most of the Dochertys in Scotland originate from the Inishowen Peninsula in northeast Donegal. Many of the Kellys in Scotland originate from southeast Donegal (around Ballybofey) and west Tyrone (around Strabane).

Posted by: valros 20th Sep 2006, 03:32pm

Thanks again Paul for very interesting reading

Valros smile.gif

Posted by: Paul Kelly 23rd Sep 2006, 10:49am

Yesterday I mentioned under the 'Family Research' topic that the small mining village of Croy in the Kilsyth area used to be known as a 'Little Ireland' due to the origins of most of its inhabitants. The mining theme also reminded me of the Blantyre Explosion or Blantyre Disaster, the worst ever mine disaster in Scottish history.

In October 1877, 207 men and boys - 11 were actually under the age of 14 - lost their lives in an explosion at Pit No.2 in the Dixon mine at High Blantyre. Of the 233 men and boys who had gone to work that October morning at Pit No.2, only 26 survived the explosion, most of them very badly injured. Incredibly, in 1879, there was another explosion at Pit No.1 in High Blantyre, in which a further 28 men and boys died. Around half of the workforce at the High Blantyre pits were Irish and this is reflected in the surnames of many of the deceased in the 2 explosions.

The following 60 Irish surnames appeared amongst the dead at Blantyre:- Berry, Boyle, Brannigan, Brannan, Bryson (Breslin), Brown (Browne), Burns (Byrne), Cairns (Kearns), Carlin, Cox, Coyle, Cosgrove (Cosgrave), Conaghan, Crowe, Conlan, Campbell (Irish), Connelly, Dolan, Divers, Duffy, Gilmour (Irish), Gribben, Hanlon, Kavanagh (Cavanagh), Kelly, Kenny, Lynch, Lafferty, Larkin, Martin, Mullan, Murray (Irish), Moore, Murphy, Malone, Meechan, McCue (McHugh), McGowan, McFadden, McGarry, McGarvey, McLaughlin, McKelvie, McCusker, McCulloch, McGhee, McMullen, McAnulty, McGuigan, O'Brien, O'Donnell, O'Neil, Owens, Roper, Smith (Smyth), Tonner, Traynor, Vallelly, Welsh (Walsh) and Ward.
Many of these surnames appeared more than once as fathers, sons and brothers died together. For example, there were 4 Kellys who died in the large explosion of 1877.

The 19th century Irish labourers who constructed the canals, tunnels, bridges and railway lines, and who worked in the factories and mines throughout Scotland (and England) were very brave and hard working and some paid the ultimate penalty for their courage. The Irish navvies provided the sweat and muscle without which much of Scotland, as we know it, would never have been built.

Posted by: rdem 23rd Sep 2006, 12:07pm

We have to acknowledge the migrant agricultural labourers ( listed ag lab on reports) who came each from Ireland to bring in the harvest. There was an unfortunate incident where a number of Irish migrants were working on a farm in the Kirkintilloch area about 1931. At night the farmer used to lock them in a byre since he didn't trust hem to be wandering around at night. The horrific outcome was that a fire started in the byre and they couldn't get out and I believe all lost their lives.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 25th Sep 2006, 07:01am

Hi rdem.

I have just been reading about the 1937 Kirkintilloch barn fire on the net. The 10 young Irishmen - aged between 16 and 24 - who died in the fire all came from Achill Island in County Mayo. It was a horrific incident.

Paul.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 25th Sep 2006, 09:03am

I recently received an email about the Donegal surname Carr. The email informed me that most of the 19th century Irish Carr immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded incorrectly as Kerr, which of course is a Scottish surname.

As a result, a significant minority of the Kerrs in Scotland today are actually of Catholic Irish descent, particularly in the Glasgow and North Lanarkshire areas. The same thing can be said of several other Scottish surnames such as Burns, Duff, McCulloch, McCormick and others. (See my introduction to this topic.)

Posted by: Paul Kelly 25th Sep 2006, 01:41pm

The other day when I was discussing the Dougherty/Dogherty/Docherty surname, I meant to add that the usual spelling of this surname today in its country of origin - Ireland - is just simply Doherty.

Posted by: Riddrieperson 25th Sep 2006, 08:26pm

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 19th Sep 2006, 09:37 AM)
District 14 was enclosed on the north by the Trongate, on the south by Clyde Street, on the west by Stockwell Street and on the east by the Saltmarket. It was basically the inner city area between Glasgow Cross and the River Clyde and contained places such as the Briggait - Bridgegate - and Paddy's Market.



I read a book last year which mentioned district 14 and I posted an enquiry on the Glasgow Boards about it,but no one seemed to have heard of it.This is the first time I have seen anybody else mention it.It is ironic that the area to the north of district 14 was the most affluent area,Merchant City,where many of the tobacco barons had their residences.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 26th Sep 2006, 05:47am

Campbell, Murray, Morrison and Patton/Patten are Scottish surnames and there are people in Ulster today with these surnames who are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters.

However, there were native Catholic Irish families in west Ulster - Donegal, Derry and Tyrone - who adopted these 4 surnames as the Anglicized versions of their Gaelic surnames shortly after the Plantation. Today, there are famous Catholic Irish families in Donegal and Tyrone with these surnames. In addition, some of the Catholic Campbells in Donegal are descendants of 14th century Scottish Gallowglasses. Campbell is a very common surname in County Donegal.
(See my discussion of Gallowglass families under the topic 'Are the Scots Really Irish?' in this 'Family History' forum.)

As a result, a significant minority of the Campbells, Murrays, Morrisons and Pattons in Scotland today are descendants of 19th century Catholic Irish immigrants from west Ulster, particularly in the Glasgow area.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 26th Sep 2006, 07:59am

Hi Kenny.

It is certainly true that the Merchant City and Blythswood areas were the most affluent parts of inner city Glasgow in the early to mid 19th century. There were very few Irish people staying in these areas, if any at all! Moreover, as inner city Glasgow became more and more 'swamped' by Irish immigrants, many of Glasgow's wealthier inhabitants relocated to the West End and South Side.

Paul.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 29th Sep 2006, 09:44am

Another Scottish Plantation surname that was adopted by some of the native Catholic Irish families of West Ulster was Huston/Houston, particularly in County Donegal.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 30th Sep 2006, 11:32am

3 other British Planter surnames that were adopted by some of the native Catholic Irish families of Ulster were Hughes, Woods and Rogers/Rodgers. For example, Rogers was often adopted as the Anglicised version of the Ulster Gaelic surname MacRory.

Most people in the Glasgow area today with these 3 surnames - Hughes, Rodgers and Woods - are descendants of 19th century Irish immigrants.

Posted by: gardenqueen 30th Sep 2006, 01:44pm

I was born with an Irish (NI I think) name. Dad came from Belfast to Glasgow in the early forties.

My first married name was of German origin I think (possibly Swiss German) but now I am back with an Irish surname in my second marriage, it is a variant of de Burgh I believe.

GQ

Posted by: Heather 2nd Oct 2006, 09:42pm

GQ, the second wife of Robert the Bruce was Elizabeth de Burgh. Her father was the Earl of Ulster. Your husband should check out his ancestors. wink.gif

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Oct 2006, 12:55pm

Another Scottish Planter surname that was adopted by some of the native Irish of West Ulster was Gillespie, particularly in County Donegal.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Oct 2006, 01:02pm

Many Irish Gaelic surnames were Anglicised in the years following the Plantations. In some cases the Anglicised versions were completely different from the original Gaelic forms. For example, the County Donegal surname of Crampsey (O'Craimhsighe) meaning 'bone' was usually Anglicised to Bonar or Bonner. The County Armagh surname of MacGirr (MacAnGhearr) meaning 'short' was usually Anglicised to Short or Shortt. The surnames of Crampsey and McGirr can still be found, though Bonar and Short are much more common.

Posted by: buntyq 17th Nov 2006, 03:04am

Dear Paul, I was browsing through areas of the GG I rarely read and came across your post. I went to Garnethill Convent School for three years until the war interupted my schooling and I went to look for work. When asked what school I had attended and said Garnethill Convent I was told by one firm that I need not apply. This was back in 1939. I was puzzled because I had earned the right to attend the Convent after the Qualifying Exams. There was another Garnethill School (Protestant)and my mother advised me to tell them that was where I had gone. Sad that one had to lie to get a job. I am glad that this is no longer the case. My maiden name was Quinn and I believe the grandparents came from Co. Tyrone. I would have liked to know more about them but they seem to have disappeared after the 1900 census.

Posted by: rdem 20th Nov 2006, 08:37am

Hi Bunty: what is the oldest record you have for the Quinns in Scotland?

Posted by: Paul Kelly 29th Dec 2006, 12:39pm

I have been reading through the list of Irish surnames commonly found in Scotland given by me and others. I want to add a few more that come to mind that have not already been mentioned:

Brady, Neeson, Dunn, Moran, Hamill, Higgins, Cannon, Canavan, Harkin, Muldoon, Bannon, Crossan, Mallon, Devenney, Treanor, Tinney, Toal, Tierney, Ferry, Diamond, Rice, Sheridan, Quigley, Herron, O'Hara, O'Hagan, McCarron, McCollum (usually recorded in the Scottish form of McCallum), McQuillan, McCallion, McCrudden, McCready, McPeake, McKeever, McKelvey, McElroy, McEnroe, McArdle, McStay, McSherry, McGlone, McGinn, McGettigan, McGreal, McCahill, McAlindon, McCool, McDevitt, McNelis, McBrearty, McGroarty, McCourt


I recently came across a website which lists the number and location of households in Ireland between 1848 and 1864 for any given surname.

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname

It is a invaluable website. If you are interested in such things, you should check it out.

Posted by: Tom 29th Dec 2006, 03:35pm

Do not forget FLATLEY

Posted by: Paul Kelly 30th Dec 2006, 03:22pm

McNeill and McIntyre are Scottish surnames, NOT Irish surnames.
(The Scottish surname McNeill should not be confused with the Irish surname O'Neill.)

Nevertheless, McNeill and McIntyre are quite common surnames in the north of Ireland. (McNeill in the northeast, McIntyre in the northwest.)

Some of the Irish McNeills and McIntyres are Catholics and are descendants of 15th century Scottish Gallowglasses.
(See my discussion of Galloglass settlers in Ireland under the topic
'Are the Scots Really Irish?' in this 'Family History' forum.)

The other Irish McNeills and McIntyres are Protestants and are descended from 17th century Scottish Planters.

In addition, McAteer is an Irish surname and is commonly found throughout the north of Ireland. In the years following the 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster, some McAteers adopted the Scottish surname McIntyre, particularly in Derry/Donegal.

Consequently, Catholic McIntyres from the northwest of Ireland are of mixed ancestry: some are of indigenous Irish McAteer descent, while others are of Scottish Gallowglass descent.

Finally, a significant minority of the McNeills and McIntyres in the Glasgow area today are descended from these 'Irish' McNeill and McIntyre families.

Posted by: musicthom 30th Dec 2006, 03:42pm

QUOTE (Dexter St. Clair @ 1st Aug 2006, 11:36 PM)
St. Andrew's Secondary which is now the Top state school in Scotland and might give some reason as to why Catholic tax payers continue to choose Catholic schools when given the choice.

thats spot on my daughter is gettin ready to leave been a great school for her i personally went to st gregorys nuf said bout that wan

Posted by: Paul Kelly 30th Dec 2006, 04:01pm

Some of my cousins on my mother's side attended the Greg in Cranhill back in the 1970s:

the Connollys and the McManuses

Posted by: Paul Kelly 14th Jan 2007, 11:00am

In the late 1830s, there was only one Catholic church in Glasgow - St Andrew's - serving mainly the earliest Irish immigrants to Glasgow, those who had arrived in the 1820s and 1830s. (Some Irish immigrants came to Glasgow even before the 1846 Irish Potato Famine, but their numbers greatly increased after the Famine, and immigrants continued coming late into the 19th century and even the early 20th century.)

The Irish immigrants who came to Glasgow in the 1820s, 1830s and early 1840s settled mainly in the notorious inner city slum area known at the time as District Fourteen (the area between the Trongate and the River Clyde containing places such as the Saltmarket, the Bridgegate and Paddy's Market.) However, some of the early immigrants also settled in the other old slum districts of Glasgow such as Townhead (High Street and Castle Street area), Garscube, Cowcaddens, Anderston and Calton. (Most of these early Irish immigrants were Catholics, though a considerable number of those who settled in the weaving district of Calton were in fact Protestants.)

The large number of Irish immigrants who came to Glasgow after the 1846 Potato Famine continued to settle in these areas but from the 1850s onwards, they were increasingly settling in areas such as the Gorbals, Garngad and Bridgeton (and even Govan and Maryhill.) Many new tenement buildings had been quickly thrown up and the more recent immigrants were settling slightly further from the city centre.

I mentioned at the beginning of this post that there was only one Catholic church in Glasgow in the late 1830s. However, by the mid to late 1800s, there were at least 10 Catholic churches in the inner city districts of Glasgow:

St Andrew's Cathedral, Clyde Street (just to the west of District 14)
St Alphonsus, London Road (next to the Barras at Moncur Street), Calton
St Mary's, Abercromby Street (next to Forbes Street), Calton/Bridgeton/Mile-End (where Celtic FC was formed)
Sacred Heart, Old Dalmarnock Road, Bridgeton
St Joseph's, North Woodside Road (next to Garscube Road)
St Aloysius, Rose Street, Garnethill/Cowcaddens
St Patrick's, North Street (next to William Street), Anderston
St Mungo's, Parson Street (next to McAslin Street), Townhead
St John's, Portugal Street, Gorbals
St Francis, Cumberland Street (next to Sandyfaulds Street), Hutchesontown, Gorbals

(St Roch's, Royston Road, Garngad and St Luke's, Ballater Street, Hutchesontown, Gorbals were built later to ease the pressure on St Mungo's, Townhead and St Francis, Hutchesontown respectively caused by the large Catholic populations in the Townhead/Garngad and Gorbals/Hutchesontown areas at the start of the 20th century.)

In the 1800s, the Gorbals usually referred to the district of Laurieston only. Laurieston included Gorbals Cross and Gorbals Street (formerly Main Street) and all the streets to the west of Gorbals Street, up to and including Bridge Street and Eglinton Street. The district to the east of Gorbals Street (Main Street) was called Hutchesontown and included streets such as Crown Street and Hospital Street.

By the start of the 20th century, the districts of Laurieston and Hutchesontown were both being referred to as the Gorbals, as is still the case today. Incidentally, the district to the west of Bridge Street and Eglinton Street - Tradeston - has never been considered part of the Gorbals.

At the start of the 20th century, Laurieston and particularly Hutchesontown had large Catholic populations. In addition, Laurieston had a large Jewish population. In fact, at the start of the 20th century, the Garngad and the Gorbals (Hutchesontown) had the largest Catholic populations in the city of Glasgow, though there were also considerable Catholic populations in the Calton/Bridgeton and Garscube/Cowcaddens areas (and even in parts of Govan.)

See posts http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=6148&view=findpost&p=122793 and http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=6148&view=findpost&p=122939 below for further discussion of Hutchesontown, Laurieston and Gorbals.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 21st Jan 2007, 10:05am

A few more Irish surnames commonly found in Scotland that have recently come to mind are Begley, Doyle and Power.

In one of my previous posts I recommended a website. The link does not appear to work. So let me try it again in a slightly different form.

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname

Posted by: Paul Kelly 21st Jan 2007, 10:36am

McConnell is a Scottish surname (found mainly in Ayrshire) and there are many Protestant McConnells in Ulster today who are descendants of 17th century Scottish Planters. However, some of the McConnells in Ulster are actually Catholics and are descended from Gallowglass McDonnells who changed their surnames to McConnell. (See my discussion of Gallowglasses under the topic 'Are the Scots Really Irish?')

McCready and McKelvey are Scottish surnames originating in Galloway and there are McCreadys and McKelveys in east Ulster (Antrim and Down) today who are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters. However, there are also unrelated native Gaelic Irish McCready and McKelvey families in Donegal and some of the McCreadys and McKelveys in the Glasgow area today are descended from 19th century Catholic immigrants from the northwest of Ireland.

McCulloch, McCormick, McCaig and McCall are Scottish surnames and there are people in Ulster today with these surnames who are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters. McCullough, McCormack, McCague and McCaul are unrelated Irish surnames. Many of the 19th century Irish McCullough, McCormack, McCague and McCaul immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded incorrectly in the Scottish forms of McCulloch, McCormick, McCaig and McCall. As a result, a significant minority of the McCullochs, McCormicks, McCaigs and McCalls in the Glasgow area today are actually descendants of 19th century Catholic Irish immigrants.

Finally, there were quite a number of 19th century Catholic Irish immigrants to Scotland from Donegal with the surname Coll. The Coll family of Donegal are descendants of 16th century McColl - MacColla - Galloglas settlers from the Inner Hebrides off the coast of Argyll.

Posted by: rdem 21st Jan 2007, 10:49am

All good points Paul. The tough part is that the spellings of names were fluid over the decades and even centuries and so one family document said Mccague and the next would be McCaig. So it was difficult to ascertain whether the bearer was native Irish or from Scottish settler stock. Especially when the native Irish often took names that sounded Scottish or English when at one time it would have been advantagous to do so. This can be reflected in something as simple as dropping the "mac' or "O" . Irish research can be a challenge.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 30th Jan 2007, 03:11pm

Tell me about it, rdem!

3 other British Planter surnames that were adopted by some native Gaelic Irish families in the years following the Plantations were Bryson and Bryce (in Donegal and Derry) and Clarke (in several counties).

McIlroy is a Scottish surname originating in Ayrshire and there are people in East Ulster (Antrim, Down) with this surname who are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters. McElroy is an unrelated Irish surname originating in the Tyrone/Fermanagh area of southwest Ulster. A number of the 19th century Catholic Irish McElroy immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded incorrectly in the Scottish form of McIlroy.

Lastly, a few other Irish surnames quite commonly found in Scotland are Nugent, Dunne, Diver(s), Deeney, Feeney, Mulrine, McNamara, McGeehan, McCrory and McGrory.

Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 9th Feb 2007, 12:28pm

I wish to make a possible correction to my post of the 14th January 2007. I had stated that the district of Laurieston was bounded on the west by Bridge Street and Eglinton Street and on the east by Gorbals Street (formerly Main Street).

Someone has informed that although my western boundary was correct, the eastern boundary was in fact Buchan Street and Portugal Street. I have been informed that Buchan Street, Portugal Street, Gorbals Street (formerly Main Street) and Gorbals Cross were all part of Hutchesontown. The streets to the immediate west of Buchan Street and Portugal Street up to and including Bridge Street and Eglinton Street were in Laurieston. Buchan Street and Portugal Street and all the streets to the east of these 2 streets were in Hutchesontown.

This part of Glasgow has changed a lot over the years and it is probably better if you look at an old street map of Glasgow rather than a current one.

Hutchesontown and Laurieston were/are both referred to as the Gorbals.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 10th Feb 2007, 10:07am

I have been browsing on the net trying to find out more info about Gorbals, Hutchesontown and Laurieston. It seems that in the 19th century (1800s), there was a small area south of the River Clyde known as the Gorbals. It consisted of Gorbals Cross and Gorbals Street (formerly Main Street) and extended the short distance westwards up to and including Buchan Street and Portugal Street. The area to the west of Buchan Street and Portugal Street was known as Laurieston and contained streets such as Norfolk Street, Oxford Street, Warwick Street, Bedford Street, Apsley Place, Coburg Street, South Portland Street and Nicholson Street. The western boundary of Laurieston was Bridge Street and Eglinton Street. The area to the east of Gorbals Street was known as Hutchesontown and contained streets such as Ballater Street (formerly Govan Street), Rose Street, South Wellington Street, South Shamrock Street, Adelphi Street, Old Rutherglen Road, Hospital Street, Crown Street, Thistle Street, Florence Street and Commercial Road.

By the start of the 20th century Gorbals proper, Hutchesontown and Laurieston were all being referred to as the Gorbals, as is still the case today. In addition, around the start of the 20th century, Hutchesontown expanded in an eastwards direction along the Clyde opposite Glasgow Green. Many new tenements were constructed in streets such as Waddell Street, Moffat Street (formerly South York Street), Mathieson Street and McNeil Street. At this time, the 'centre' or 'heart' of the Gorbals moved eastwards from Gorbals Cross and Gorbals Street to around Crown Street.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 12th Feb 2007, 10:02am

3 other British Planter surnames that were adopted by some native Gaelic Irish families in the years following the Plantations were Marley and Boyce (in County Donegal) and Flood (in several counties).

Posted by: Paul Kelly 14th Feb 2007, 07:25am

2 of Scotland's greatest ever sportsmen were undoubtedly 'Irish' Glaswegians Benny Lynch (1913-1946) and Jimmy McGrory (1904-1982).

Jimmy McGrory was the son of Donegal immigrants and was born and raised in Millburn Street, Garngad (Roysyon), Glasgow. His football career spanned the 1920s and 1930s and he spent most of it playing for Celtic. He scored 550 goals in first-class matches (still a British record), including 410 goals in 408 league games. Jimmy is the MOST prolific goal scorer in British football history. Amazingly, he was only capped 7 times for Scotland. (Several top Celtic players of this era had surprisingly few caps for Scotland.) Jimmy scored 7 times for Scotland keeping up his astonishing record of a goal a game in top-class football.

In my opinion, Scotland's greatest ever sportsman was Benny Lynch. Many boxing experts over the years have described Benny as the most talented British boxer of all time. Benny was the son of a Donegal man and was born and raised in Florence Street, Hutchesontown, Gorbals, Glasgow. He became Scotland's first ever World Boxing Champion in 1935 by defeating the reigning champion in Manchester. Amazingly, the city fathers of Glasgow Corporation refused to give him an official welcome home. Nevertheless, hundreds of thousands of ordinary Glaswegians spontaneously brought Glasgow city centre to a standstill in order to cheer Benny on his return to Glasgow from Manchester as the new World Flyweight Boxing Champion. People packed the streets all the way from Glasgow Central Station to his home in the Gorbals.

Benny's boxing carrer ended prematurely in 1938, aged only 25 years, because of his heavy drinking lifestyle. Tragically, Benny died in 1946 from the effects of alcoholism and malnutrition, aged 33 years. He will always be remembered affectionately by the people of Glasgow as 'Our Benny'.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 23rd Feb 2007, 07:02am

McFall is an Irish surname originating in the Inishowen Peninsula of County Donegal. It seems that some of the 19th century Irish McFall immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded incorrectly in the Scottish form of McPhail.

In an earlier post it was mentioned that McKinstry is an Irish surname. McKinstry is in fact a Scottish surname originating in Galloway. The McKinstry surname is quite commonly found in east Ulster (particularly Antrim) and these Irish McKinstrys are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Ayrshire and Galloway.

Smith is the most common surname in Scotland and England. It is also the 5th most common surname in Ireland. Many of the Irish Smiths are descendants of 17th century Protestant Planters from Scotland and England. However, some of the Irish Smiths are descendants of native Gaelic Irish families who changed their surnames to Smith (or Smyth) in the years following the Plantations when it was advantageous to do so.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 23rd Feb 2007, 09:48am

Further to my post of earlier today, I have been reading a bit more about the Irish surname McFall. It seems that there are many McFalls in east Ulster (particularly Antrim) who are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McPhail Planters. The Catholic McFalls of mainly west Ulster (Donegal/Derry) are not related to the Protestant McFalls of mainly east Ulster. (The original Irish Gaelic form of the McFall/McFaul surname of west Derry and north east Donegal (Inishowen) is O'Maolfabhail.) However, my earlier comment about some of the 19th century Irish McFall immigrants to Scotland having their surnames recorded in the Scottish form of McPhail still stands.
McFall, McFaul and McPhail all mean 'Son of Paul'.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 26th Feb 2007, 12:57pm

Last year May I submitted 2 posts with 2 files included under the topic 'Have you ever been across the sea to Ireland?' in this Family History Forum: one was about My Family Tree and the other was about My Meenavoy Ancestors.

Over the past year new information about my ancestry has come to light and I have had to update these 2 files. So I am now going to resubmit these updated files.

The first file which I have copied below is called 'My Family Tree'.

I think I am now reasonably sure of the names of my 16 greatgreatgrandparents and where they came from. 7 came from County Donegal, 4 came from County Armagh, 2 came from Belfast, 2 came from the Scottish Highlands and 1 came from the Scottish Borders. The 11 from Donegal and Armagh were Catholics and the 5 from Belfast and Scotland were Protestants.

The second file which I have copied below is called 'My Meenavoy Ancestors' and it contains information about my ancestors from the Ballybofey/Stranorlar area in southeast Donegal (parishes of Stranorlar, Donaghmore, Convoy and Raphoe.)

Paul

----

File #1: My Meenavoy Ancestors

My greatgreatgreatgrandfather was Dennis (Dinny) Kelly of Meenavoy, Stranorlar, County Donegal. He was born c1795 and died c1865. Dennis had 2 sons: John (my greatgreatgrandfather) and Charles.

John and Charles married 2 sisters: Ellen (my greatgreatgrandmother) and Mary Jane Bonar from Callan, near Drumkeen, Convoy, Donegal. The father of Ellen and Mary Jane was Patrick Bonar/Crampsie.

John Kelly (born c1830) and Ellen Bonar (born c1840) had at least 11 children:

All the above had children except the unmarried Dennis.

Charles Kelly (born c1835) and Mary Jane Bonar (born c1845) had at least 7 children:2 of the sons of Joseph Kelly (*), Bernie (b1898) and Frank (b1903), married 2 of the daughters of Dennis Kelly (#), Ellen (b1899) and Agnes (b1904). More examples of Kelly 2nd cousins marrying! Bernie and Ellen settled in Meenavoy and had 17 children. Frank and Agnes settled in Garngad, Glasgow and had 15 children.

Another greatgreatgreatgrandfather of mine was John Tinney (Tunny) from Meenavoy. John was born c1805 and died c1870. (I suspect John was actually born in Drumkeen, Convoy and that he married and settled in Meenavoy.)

John had at least 3 children: Catherine (my greatgreatgrandmother) (born c1840), Bernard (born c1841) and Susan (born c1850).

My greatgreatgrandmother Catherine (Kate) Tinney (born c1840) married Alan Rutherford. Alan came from near Lockerbie in the Scottish Borders and worked as a policeman in Stranorlar. Alan and Kate settled in Meenavoy and had at least 5 children:Bernard Tinney (born c1841) married Anne McBride from Dooish, Ballybofey and settled in Meenavoy. They had 6 children:Susan Tinney (born c1850) married James Monaghan and settled in Meenavoy. They had no children.

My greatgrandfather Barney Rutherford (born 1869) married twice: firstly Mary Anne Bradley (my greatgrandmother) from Meenbane, Stranorlar and secondly Margaret Quigley from Cappry, Ballybofey. My grandmother, Sarah Jane Rutherford, was born in Meenavoy in 1899. After Mary Anne Bradley's death in 1903 and Barney Rutherford's subsequent marriage to Margaret Quigley and move to Ballybofey in 1904, my grandmother, Sarah Rutherford, was brought up in Meenavoy by Susan Monaghan.

The website 'Donegal Genealogy Resources' by Lindel Buckley has a copy of the 1901 Irish census for Meenavoy. Many of the above people appear in it.

The website also has a copy of the 1857 Griffith's Valuation for the parish of Stranorlar. The 1857 Griffith's Valuation lists the heads of all the households in County Donegal in 1857, parish by parish. My greatgreatgreatgrandfathers - Denis Kelly and John Tunny - are both listed in the 1857 GV for Meenavoy in the parish of Stranorlar.

Meenavoy or Meenavay is also known as Kellystown or Kellytown.

----

File #2: My Family TreeParentsGrandparents (4)Great Grandparents (8)Great Great Grandparents (16) Great Great Great Grandparents (can identify 6 of them)#I think John McCormack's father was James McCormack from the Ballybofey/Killygordon area in the parish of Donaghmore.

##Rose Ann McArthur died in Garngad, Glasgow in January 1922 aged 81 years. Rose's mother was Margaret Kane from either Drumevish, Donaghmore or Gortletteragh, Stranorlar and her father was either Terence McArthur from Dooghan, Donaghmore or Charles McIntyre / McEntyre / McAteer from Sessiaghoneill, Donaghmore

^Kate Tinney's father was John Tinney/Tunny of Meenavoy, Stranorlar.

Posted by: big tommy 26th Feb 2007, 04:22pm

Dear Paul
How very true / My surname is McSorley /My late wife was Kelly ,My mother was Mc Laughlin .My late moter in law was Mc Cormack .My sons wife is Hughes .
I suppose they all count .and all from Catholic immigrant families ,
y son in law is Malley I think they lost the'O' somewhre along the line
Tommy

Posted by: Paul Kelly 27th Feb 2007, 01:05pm

Thanks Tommy.

I recently received an email from a Joe Kelly (born Donegal 1929) in Australia. It turns out that he is a 2nd cousin of my dad, James Kelly (born Garngad 1934). They have never met even though my parents stayed in Australia for 2/3 years in the late 1960s after they got married. The email contains an article written by Cecil A. King in the Donegal Democrat newspaper in 1972. Cecil King was born around 1905 in Derry and is a 1st cousin of my grandfather, James Kelly (born Garngad 1895, died Balornock 1970). Cecil was a journalist and was at one time the owner and editor of the Donegal Democrat newspaper.

The newspaper article is about the 'wake' of Frank Kelly (born Meenavoy 1878/79, died Tivickmoy 1972). Frank was the younger brother of my greatgrandfather Hugh Kelly (born Meenavoy 1866, died Gorbals early 1950s), Ellen Kelly (born Meenavoy 1876, died Derry early 1960s, mother of Cecil King) and Joseph Kelly (born Meenavoy 1871, grandfather of Joe Kelly in Australia). In fact, if you open the 'Meenavoy Ancestors' file which I attached to my previous post in this topic, you will see all the people I am referring to.

Meenavoy (Meenavay) and Teevickmoy (Tivockmoy) are neighbouring villages in southeast Donegal about 3 miles (5km) to the north of the town of Ballybofey, Stranorlar.

I found the newspaper article very moving the first time I read it. It is a tribute to the warmth, generosity, openness and friendliness of the people of rural Ireland.

Let me reproduce the article:

''THE HEART OF RURAL IRELAND

To be out of touch, as I am, with the life of rural Ireland, is akin to being ignorant of the finer senses of human values. This week, for the first time in years, I was at a wake. I never did like attending, or should it be participating in, 'wakes', but this time the deceased person was a venerable uncle, well into his nineties. At one time I had more than 20 uncles. This was the last of them and his death snapped the last link in a family chain going back over four generations. He was the youngest of a family of thirteen and when he was born in 1878, the eldest brother was 23 years old. They were the Kelly family of Tivickmoy, near Ballybofey, where there are still many branches, but the direct link has gone. Being at the wake was an experience. I was surrounded by relatives, from first cousins to cousins three times removed, many of whom I did not know existed. But that is not what I want to tell you about. What impressed me was the wonderful display of sympathy and respect for the dead. For three days the house never emptied, night or day. The people who came were from all arts and parts. They sat in the kitchen, in the parlour, everywhere in the house where there was a chair offered, and what a volume of reminiscing was indulged in. The Kelly family and its association with the life of the area formed the main theme of conversation, and, of course, none of them was like Frank, the quiet, genial, hardworking man, to whose memory they were that day paying tribute. One hundred years of local history was talked about while cups of tea kept coming with the regularity of a conveyor belt. Girls came from homes in the neighbourhood in relays to relieve and take over in this seemingly endless dispensing of tea and sandwiches. It would be interesting, I thought to myself, if the cups of tea could be counted. I hazard a guess and say they numbered five hundred. Everyone, it seemed, had to have one. I saw nobody refusing the hospitality. It all mounted up to a vast demonstration of the sense of neighbourliness that is innately in the Irish heart, and by that I mean the heart of rural Ireland, where real people are to be found. Would to God that this sense of mutual respect could have general application amongst all the people of Ireland. I left that house feeling edified by a manifestation of charity of the kind which I had thought was a thing of the past.''

By Cecil A. King (Donegal Democrat newspaper, 1972)

Posted by: rosie-k 28th Feb 2007, 09:03pm

Hello Paul, I find this a very interesting subject, I have been tracing my roots with the help of Talking Scot, I now find I have loads of ancestors I never new of and my great great grandfather came from Killoe in Longford Ireland, he had 9 children, one was my grandfather who came to Scotland where he married my grandmother in 1908 they had 2 daughters(one of which was my late mother) he died in 1914 after a mining accident, I have been on a few sites about the pits and the way people lived in they days would break your heart, it makes very sad reading, they had it very hard in they days. I meant to say their name was O'shaughnessy. They stayed in Cleland in Lanarkshire, I have gathered a lot of information and photographs of their life'and photographs of the church they were married in, I also have birth and death certificates, as I said I find this fascinating, it is never ending but very enjoyable, I pick up loads of tips from the Talking Scot. I have just been having a look at all your posts---you have been busy.

Posted by: valleyboy38 28th Feb 2007, 10:37pm

Paul Kelly i find your topic on irish names very interesting .I wish i could trace my ancestors . I know my name Traynor originates from Co Monaghan but i cant get by my grandfathers part as he and his wife died in the poor house in the Southeren General there my search stops .

Posted by: KiwiScoti 28th Feb 2007, 10:49pm

All very interesting, many thanks.

My, weren't there a lot of Irish Immigrants into Scotland from the mid 1800's,
although, as you say, a considerable number would have moved on to the U S of A .

My Sweeney family were early immigrants into Glasgow.
My GG Grandfather gave his place of birth as St Andrews parish, Lanarkshire, ca 1808 .
I see from your posts that this was the only Catholic parish in Glasgow at that time.
He was married in Glasgow, by a 'Minister of Gorbals', Fr/Br James McLean, in 1830 .
He later lived at High Street and Drygate after returning to Glasgow, when pensioned.

As well as the navvies, miners, etc, many of the immigrants would have been enlisted into the British Army, as my Georgian/Victorian family were, for the few pounds bounty offered.

My GG Grandfather enlisted into the Highlanders at age 16yrs (for life) for the princely sum of Four Pounds Sterling, at Glasgow in 1825,
Attested by James Wingate esq JP of Lanarkshire, and he received ten shillings on being attested.

I would guess that many mothers pushed their sons forward for a bit of cash flow, when times were hard.

Even the Highland regiments had a large percentage of Scots-Irish, and Irish in their ranks.
Many of these settled in Glasgow on attaining pension, as my GG Grandfather did, after 1846.

My Gt Grandfather also enlisted, at age 11yrs, but there is no record of the bounty paid to him.
His four brothers all enlisted into the Highlanders as well.

cheers,
Sean

Posted by: Paul Kelly 2nd Mar 2007, 06:48am

Hi Sean

I have been reading through your family history again in the topic
'A Glaswegian Scottish/Irish' started by you.

St Andrew's is the oldest Catholic parish in Glasgow, established in the very early 19th century, and it served mainly the earliest Irish immigrants to Glasgow. It seems your gt gt grandfather was born/baptised there around 1810. The 2nd oldest Catholic parish in Glasgow is St Mary's, Abercromby Street, Calton, which was established in 1842.

You said your gt gt grandfather married in the Gorbals in 1830. Was it a Catholic wedding? I assume it must have been, as in your family history you say your gt grandfather was baptised a Catholic in 1835.

I have recently been reading about Glasgow in the year 1836. The article says there were 2 Catholic churches in Glasgow in 1836:
St Andrew's in the old central area north of the River Clyde and a smaller 'temporary' church in the Gorbals to the south of the Clyde. No name is mentioned for this 'temporary' church, and it was later replaced by St John's, Portugal Street, Gorbals, which was established around 1846 (3rd oldest Catholic parish in Glasgow)

It seems your gt gt grandfather must have been married in this 'temporary' 1830s Gorbals Catholic Church. Have you any idea of the name of the church? Maybe it didn't have a name.

Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 2nd Mar 2007, 09:08am

Hi Valleyboy.

You must be referring to the Govan Poorhouse.

I don't know how many poorhouses Glasgow once had but I have heard of 3 of them:
the Govan Poorhouse, the City Poorhouse in Parliamentary Road, Townhead and the Barnhill Poorhouse in Balornock/Springburn.

Poorhouses were in effect prisons for the very poor who couldn't provide themselves with the basic necessities of life.
A disproportionately high number of the inmates of Glasgow's poorhouses were destitute Irish immigrants.

Barnhill was the largest and most notorious poorhouse in Glasgow. It was completed in 1854 and could hold up to 2000 inmates. I remember my parents used to take me to visit my Granny Kelly in Avonspark Street, Balornock next to the Barnhill Poorhouse in the 1970s. The Barnhill Poorhouse building looked just like Barlinnie prison. I understand the building was knocked down in the 1980s.


Hi Rosie.

I agree that most of the Irish immigrants who came to the Glasgow and Lanarkshire had very hard lives. I don't think we really understand how tough their lives were.


Paul

Posted by: GG 2nd Mar 2007, 07:42pm

Reply from Big Tommy:

QUOTE
Paul
The old Catholic church on the Broomielaw I.E/ St Andrews is now Glasgow Cathedral, the very heart of Catholcism for the whole of Lanarkshire and surrounding parishes.

We even had a Cardinal named REv Cardinal Thomas Winning. I met him a few times ,Twice when my pals 2 sons were ordinated in St Gregorys in Maryhill.

Then when he came up to my own parish at St Dominics in Bishopbriggs.

He was a lovely man and had he been spared , i think he might have been the new Pope.

Tommy

GG.

Posted by: rdem 3rd Mar 2007, 02:37am

Anyone have an ancestor with the donegal name McNeilus, Mc Neillis or McNealus?

Posted by: matt.63 4th Mar 2007, 01:55pm

I Lived in Avonpark st for a few years, was Barnhill the same place as Foresthall?

Posted by: danny bhoy 4th Mar 2007, 06:26pm

Looking for anyone with the surname McGeever from Donegal, probably from the Ghaoth Dobhair area.

Posted by: KiwiScoti 4th Mar 2007, 11:32pm

Paul,

ref the Gorbals marriage.

I only have an extract of the Marriage entry in the register of August 1830.
I first picked up the record from the LDS database.
My Gt Grandfather had mentioned many years ago that his mother was a Spence.
From this I have manged to fill in a lot of gaps.
It doesn't mention the church name, just who performed the ceremony. Br/Fr James McLean.
I assume it was a Catholic ceremony as my Gt Grandfather Robert was baptised as a Catholic at Stirling in 1835. The page I have from the register sent to me by (Catholic) St Mary's, and help from Stirling Library, has a smattering of Irish names on it.
As far as I am aware, the British Army still did not have Catholic priests in service at that time.

The 1851 census page I have of 19 names at High Street, has only one Irish birth recorded, that of son James, born in the 79th Highlanders, while William was stationed there, around 1840.

The 1861 census page of 23 names has 7 recorded as born Ireland. Some of their children born Glasgow et al. William is recorded as born Ireland, although this is probably an error.
Three of the names appear to be badly written or spellled, Fennel ? , William Bacan ? , and William Bearmyan ?
Maybe you can decipher them.
I'm thinking that they were illiterate, and the census-taker took a punt
Interesting also to see a 15yr old's profession as 'ShopMan Spirirt Shop', where my GGfather was a lodger. (Should have suited him well, as he was cashiered twice for being drunk on parade during his 19yrs+ army service.)
I have attached a file of the page.

cheers,

Sean


 

Posted by: Paul Kelly 5th Mar 2007, 07:01am

Thanks Sean.

Hi Matt. Barnhill was renamed Foresthall in 1945.

Hi Tommy. St Andrew's (Glasgow's first Catholic church) is now known as St Andrew's Cathedral.

Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 5th Mar 2007, 07:16am

Hi Valleyboy.

Your post of last week, in which you said your ancestors came from County Monaghan, reminded me of James Connolly (1868-1916), whom I forgot to mention in my earlier post about famous IRISH-SCOTS.

James Connolly was the son of Irish immigrants from County Monaghan and was born and raised in the Cowgate, Edinburgh.
Cowgate and Grassmarket were the inner city slum areas of Edinburgh in which many 19th century Irish immigrants settled.

Connolly was one of the ringleaders of the failed 1916 Easter Rising in Dublin against British Rule in Ireland. He was arrested and executed by firing squad. If you do a GOOGLE search for JAMES CONNOLLY you will find many websites about him.

Paul

Posted by: Heather 5th Mar 2007, 08:42pm

As far as I remember from reading about James Connolly, he was shot tied to a chair as he was too badly wounded to stand up.

The Irish Rebel

A great crowd had gathered outside of Kilmainham
With their heads all uncovered, they knelt on the ground
For inside that grim prison lay a true Irish soldier
His life for his country about to lay down

He went to his death like a true son of Ireland
The firing party he bravely did face
Then the order rang out, 'Present arms, Fire!'
James Connolly fell into a ready-made grave

The black flag was hoisted, the cruel deed was over
Gone was the man who loved Ireland so well
There was many a sad heart in Dublin that morning
When they murdered James Connolly, the Irish rebel

Many years have rolled by since the Irish Rebellion
When the guns of Britannia the loudly did speak
And the bold IRA they stood shoulder to shoulder
And the blood from their bodies flowed down Sackville Street

The Four Courts of Dublin, the English bombarded
The spirit of freedom, they tried hard to quell
But above all the din, came the cry, 'No Surrender!'
'Twas the voice of James Connolly, the Irish rebel

Posted by: zuzu 6th Mar 2007, 01:00pm

Just a comment on the below entry- Be careful of the information on the self named "encyclopedia" Wikipedia. Anyone can post on that site, attempting to turn opinion into fact. The information found there can not be supported by studies.

I recently came across 2 terms in the Internet encyclopedia Wikipedia while browsing on the net.

Scots-Irish : Northern Irish Protestants of mainly Scottish descent

Irish-Scots : Scots of mainly Catholic Irish descent

I have heard of the Scots-Irish before, but it is my first time to come across the term 'Irish-Scots'.

Posted by: rdem 7th Mar 2007, 12:50pm

My family Irish names (not necessarily Irish but originated from there to Scotland.)
Dempsey, Bon(n)ar, O'Donnell (2), Morgan, Dougan, Moor, Brown, McRobbie, Crawford, Ogilvie, MacDonald, Fairell, McNeillis, Donnelly, Gallocher, Graham,

Posted by: KiwiScoti 7th Mar 2007, 10:11pm

There were 125 Sweeney records in the 1841 census in all of Scotland.

My little family of about a dozen were in Paisley Barracks, Abbey/Renfrew.

I guess the bulk of Irish immigration was still to follow.

Sean

Posted by: Paul Kelly 8th Mar 2007, 07:44am

Hi rdem.

You have a lot of Irish and Scots-Irish ancestors. In an earlier post, you were asking about the Irish (Donegal) surname McNelis/McNellis. As far as I am aware, the McNelis surname is quite commonly found in southwest Donegal around Killybegs and Glencolumbkille (the Glen of St Columba). St Columba, the 6th century Irish monk who brought Christianity to much of Scotland, is said to have been born in County Donegal. I am just after reading a website about the McNelis surname. It says that many of the 19th century Irish McNelis immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded as McNeil (which of course is a Scottish surname). 2 explanations are offered for this incorrect recording of the surname:
1. Most of the McNelis immigrants would have been illiterate and therefore would not have known how to spell their surname. It was therefore natural for the Scottish officials to record the surname in a Scottish form and the immigrants continued to use that spelling.
2. The McNelis immigrants deliberately changed their surname to McNeil in order to conceal their Irish roots at a time when anti-Catholic Irish sentiments were particularly strong in Scotland.

Hi DannyBhoy.

I had never heard of the surname McGeever but I am sure it is just an alternative spelling of the Irish surname McKeever which is quite common in West Ulster (Derry, Donagal, Tyrone).


Paul

Posted by: rdem 8th Mar 2007, 08:15am

You are correct Paul. Mary McNeilis married Neil Bonnar in 1850 at Kilbirnie, proably just arrived rom Ireland in the year or two previous. They had a number of children and by 1855 when compuslory registration gave us copies of their birth certificates, each child's birth recorded her maiden surname differently, everything from McNealus, to McNeil to Manilaws. It is the soft Donegal accent that the clerk heard and wrote what he heard and wouln't have bohthered to ask, even if they were literate, which in most cases they wouldn't have been.

Posted by: kmacc 8th Mar 2007, 09:50am

Hi GG was your pals name Joe Keenan?

Posted by: Paul Kelly 8th Mar 2007, 09:57am

Several other Irish surnames quite commonly found in Scotland that have recently come to mind are McKiernan, McClay, McAvinney (McAvennie), McGettrick, McGough, McMenemy, McGrady, McAleer (not to be confused with the Scottish Planter surname McClure), Jordan, Lennon, Mooney, Gildea (Kilday), Dyer, Downey, Peoples (Deeny), Hayes, Foley, Mulvany, Mullarkey, Burke, Collins and King.

The last 2 surnames - Collins and King - are really English surnames but several native Irish families adopted these surnames as the Anglicised versions of their Gaelic surnames in the years following the Plantations, when it was advantageous to have an English/Scottish sounding surname as opposed to a native Irish surname.

Another Scottish Planter surname that was adopted by some native Gaelic Irish families in the years following the Plantations was Sloan, particularly in east Ulster.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 8th Mar 2007, 03:06pm

McGill is a Scottish surname originating in Galloway. There are many McGills in east Ulster (Antrim and Down) today who are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Galloway and Ayrshire.

However, there is also an unrelated native Irish McGill surname found in west Ulster and the south of Ireland and some of the McGills in Scotland today are descended from 19th century Catholic immigrants from Ireland.

Posted by: rosie-k 8th Mar 2007, 06:10pm

Hi!! kmacc, I was interested in your question about Joe Keenan, I was brought up with Joe Keenan our families were best friends, I was told by big Tommy on this board that he had died, he was telling me about Joe's wife Philomena and that he used to meet her at the cemetery when he was visiting his wifes grave, he would be able to tell you more about it as I left Glasgow many years ago. I knew he had one of his sons ordained, did he have 2 ordained?

Posted by: Heather 8th Mar 2007, 09:05pm

Yes Rosie, they did have two sons Ordained to the Priesthood.

I went to school with Philomena, but have never seen her since shortly after leaving school. Her husband Joseph Keenan, had a Fruit & Veg shop near where my sister lived.
Philomena's dad was Italian. I do not have a clue how to spell her parents surname so will spell it phonetically. 'Roccoshawly '.

Posted by: rosie-k 8th Mar 2007, 09:29pm

Hello Heather., I remember Philomena, I always remember she had beautiful curly hair, Joe opened his first shop (it used to be Divers) in Grove St. his Mum Bella gave me a beautiful Sacred Heart picture when I got married--we still have it--My Gran and her were great friends and had a lot to do with St.Joseph's, including the wee dances in Manresa Place, I used to spend a lot of time in Mrs Keenan's when I was younger, I was a wee bit younger than Joe, I do remember he used to work in the shoemakers in Braid St. I think that may have been his first job, nice to hear about the family through this site. I know he opened a shop in Maryhill somewhere, by this time we had moved to Arbroath. I only knew Joe had died through Big Tommy as I said in my last post. His Mum would have been so proud of her two Grandsons. Thanks for the information.

Posted by: Heather 9th Mar 2007, 04:24pm

Rosie, at school Philomena's hair was a mass of ringlets.

I remember the shop in Grove Street as my sister lived in Braid Street.

Joe Keenan was a bit older than us, and I remember he used to serve early Mass in St. Joseph's before he went to work. That was in the days if you went to Mass every day for Lent, then it was about 7-clock in the morning. Now a days it is a bit later for the school children.

I am in St. Bridget's Parish Baillieston, and there is a Mass at 8-20am every morning for the school children during Lent. Then they go into the Chapel hall and get a breakfast before going into school. Cereal, toast, juice and biscuits. The first week of Lent 800 children were served a breakfast.

Posted by: kmacc 10th Mar 2007, 05:45am

Hi Rosie I was a good friend of Joe Keenans He lived top flat 15 braid st,
he served his time as a chalice maker down cowcaddens,he had 4 sons and a daughter,two of them were ordained in Rome I believe they are now parish priests in glasgow,Joe was Head alter boy in st joseph`s when me and heathers brother Davie was alter boys.kmacc

Posted by: Heather 10th Mar 2007, 06:31pm

Kmacc, so you knew my brother Davie. You probably knew William as well as he was also an Altar Boy in St. Joseph's. They were both older than me.

You have me puzzled here, as we must have spoken about this some time before, because my real name is not Heather, but you obviously know that.

Posted by: Isobel 10th Mar 2007, 08:04pm

Just a thought Heather do you know a priest called John Gilmartin ,he may even be an auxilliary bishop . I believe he was once in Our Lady of Lourdes in Cardonald at one time.

Posted by: Heather 10th Mar 2007, 11:03pm

No Isobel I have never heard of that Priest, but I had a look at our Parish website which has links to all the Diocese's, and this may be the Priest you are asking about.


Parish Name: Our Lady of Lourdes
Address: Lourdes Avenue
Glasgow
Post Code: G52 3QU
Tel: 0141 882 1024

Email: Website:

Parish Priest: Right Rev. John Canon Gilmartin, V.G.(1968)

Assistant Priest: Rev.Thomas A.Kilbride, M.A.,S.T.B.,S.S.L.,(1996)

Mass Times: Saturday Vigil: 7.00pm
Sunday Morning: 9.30am, 11.00am, 12.15pm
Sunday Evening: 6.00pm

Posted by: Isobel 11th Mar 2007, 03:33am

Thanks Heather I do believe thats John.Would like to find out about his family when I am over there in July. We all grew up together. What is a canon we don't have that here. Is it like an assistant bishop?

Posted by: kmacc 11th Mar 2007, 09:41am

Hi Heather yes we have spoke before,I was a friend of Davies
we went through school together and we were on the alter at the same time with Joe Keenan and Francie Lawler, his Mum had the sweetie shop
next to St Joseph`s,I don`t remember your brother William.
..........cheers kmacc

Posted by: Heather 11th Mar 2007, 02:47pm

Now don't be silly Isobel, you know as well as I do that a canon is a big gun. laugh.gif

Ok lets be serious. wink.gif

A Canon is a sort of promotion, but not as high as an Assistant Bishop.

Kmacc, it seems my family have carried on the Altar Servers tradition in our family. My son was an Altar Boy and served Mass well into his 20's. Two of his children have followed on from him. His son was an Altar Boy, now his daughter is an Altar Server.

Posted by: ALAN RUTHERFORD 12th Mar 2007, 10:19pm

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 27th Feb 2007, 01:22 PM) *
Thanks Tommy.

I recently received an email from a Joe Kelly (born Donegal 1929) in Australia. It turns out that he is a 2nd cousin of my dad, James Kelly (born Garngad 1934). They have never met even though my parents stayed in Australia for 2/3 years in the late 1960s after they got married. The email contains an article written by Cecil A. King in the Donegal Democrat newspaper in 1972. Cecil King was born around 1905 in Derry and is a 1st cousin of my grandfather, James Kelly (born Garngad 1895, died Balornock 1970). Cecil was a journalist and was at one time the owner and editor of the Donegal Democrat newspaper.

The newspaper article is about the 'wake' of Frank Kelly (born Meenavoy 1878/79, died Tivickmoy 1972). Frank was the younger brother of my greatgrandfather Hugh Kelly (born Meenavoy 1866, died Gorbals early 1950s), Ellen Kelly (born Meenavoy 1876, died Derry early 1960s, mother of Cecil King) and Joseph Kelly (born Meenavoy 1871, grandfather of Joe Kelly in Australia). In fact, if you open the 'Meenavoy Ancestors' file which I attached to my previous post in this topic, you will see all the people I am referring to.

Meenavoy (Meenavay) and Teevickmoy (Tivockmoy) are neighbouring villages in southeast Donegal about 3 miles (5km) to the north of the town of Ballybofey, Stranorlar.

I found the newspaper article very moving the first time I read it. It is a tribute to the warmth, generosity, openness and friendliness of the people of rural Ireland.

Let me reproduce the article:

''THE HEART OF RURAL IRELAND

To be out of touch, as I am, with the life of rural Ireland, is akin to being ignorant of the finer senses of human values. This week, for the first time in years, I was at a wake. I never did like attending, or should it be participating in, 'wakes', but this time the deceased person was a venerable uncle, well into his nineties. At one time I had more than 20 uncles. This was the last of them and his death snapped the last link in a family chain going back over four generations. He was the youngest of a family of thirteen and when he was born in 1878, the eldest brother was 23 years old. They were the Kelly family of Tivickmoy, near Ballybofey, where there are still many branches, but the direct link has gone. Being at the wake was an experience. I was surrounded by relatives, from first cousins to cousins three times removed, many of whom I did not know existed. But that is not what I want to tell you about. What impressed me was the wonderful display of sympathy and respect for the dead. For three days the house never emptied, night or day. The people who came were from all arts and parts. They sat in the kitchen, in the parlour, everywhere in the house where there was a chair offered, and what a volume of reminiscing was indulged in. The Kelly family and its association with the life of the area formed the main theme of conversation, and, of course, none of them was like Frank, the quiet, genial, hardworking man, to whose memory they were that day paying tribute. One hundred years of local history was talked about while cups of tea kept coming with the regularity of a conveyor belt. Girls came from homes in the neighbourhood in relays to relieve and take over in this seemingly endless dispensing of tea and sandwiches. It would be interesting, I thought to myself, if the cups of tea could be counted. I hazard a guess and say they numbered five hundred. Everyone, it seemed, had to have one. I saw nobody refusing the hospitality. It all mounted up to a vast demonstration of the sense of neighbourliness that is innately in the Irish heart, and by that I mean the heart of rural Ireland, where real people are to be found. Would to God that this sense of mutual respect could have general application amongst all the people of Ireland. I left that house feeling edified by a manifestation of charity of the kind which I had thought was a thing of the past.''

By Cecil A. King (Donegal Democrat newspaper, 1972)

Posted by: rosie-k 14th Mar 2007, 03:29pm

Hello Kmacc, yes we stayed at 15 Braid St. Joe and family moved downstairs to the close and stayed through the wall from us. It was so handy you could just climb over the wall in the back court to get to the Woodside Baths or to the swings,
The Priests I remember in they days were Father Lyne, Father Martin, and the Priest who married us in 1954 was Father O'Connell, we didn't belong to St Joseph's parish by this time, went to School their and made First Holy Communion and Confirmation in St.Joseph's so decided to get married their also.
Nice to read all these letters brings back good memories.

Posted by: Floss 15th Mar 2007, 06:58am

HI Everyone


Found this discussion interesting as I'm researching my family tree and although my Dad was born in Glasgow his father and grandparents were born in Ireland. I've been trying to find the origins of our surname - McIlduff - and although most of the McIlduffs I've found orginate in Armagh (Think they moved en masse to Glasgow c1890) it appears that its actually a Scottish name. Would anyonw know anything about the name ?

Thanks
Fiona

Posted by: Paul Kelly 15th Mar 2007, 07:32am

Hi Alan Rutherford. Who are you? Are you connected to the Rutherford family from Ballybofey/Stranorlar in County Donegal?

Posted by: Paul Kelly 15th Mar 2007, 07:39am

Hi Fiona.

According to the website given below, McIlduff is a native Gaelic Irish surname originating in south Ulster - Counties Armagh, Tyrone, Monaghan and Cavan.

Paul

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname

Incidentally, Duff is generally regarded as a Scottish surname and most of the Duffs in east Ulster (Antrim and Down) are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters. In contrast, Duffy is a very common native Irish surname and is found throughout Ulster, particularly in Monaghan and Donegal. Having said all that, it seems that some of the Irish Duffs (primarily those not from east Ulster) are actually related to the native Irish Duffys and not the Scottish Planter Duffs.

Posted by: Rutherford 15th Mar 2007, 08:55am

My family are connected to the Ballybofey/Stranolar Rutherfords- My great grandfather was Barney Rutherford. As I have just started to research my family tree, I was grateful to see that some of the initial background was ready for me. Thanks Paul. My Dad says he remembers knowing some of the Kelly family when he was young.

Marianne Rutherford

Posted by: Floss 15th Mar 2007, 10:09am

HI Paul

Many thanks for the reply and the link, its given me something more to think about smile.gif I was always under the impression that McIlduff was a Scottish name but after reading your post and looking through the Ireland.com site I searched the net and came up with some more info. From what I've been able to find it seems McIlduff goes back to the Dalriadan tribe who came over from Ireland and settled in Scotland. Not sure how correct this is but its something I think I'd like to look more into.

Thanks again

Fiona

Posted by: Paul Kelly 15th Mar 2007, 10:21am

Hi Marianne.

My greatgrandfather was also Barney Rutherford so that makes us 2nd cousins! I know Barney Rutherford was married twice: firstly to Mary Anne Bradley (my greatgrandmother) and secondly to Margaret Quigley. He had many children by both wives. Who was your greatgrandmother?
In post #64 of this topic I attached 2 files:
'My Family Tree' and 'My Meenavoy Ancestors'.
Both files have information about Barney Rutherford. We can communicate more by personal messages.

Regards,

Paul

Posted by: glasgowhobo 16th Mar 2007, 02:24am

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 15th Mar 2007, 10:38 AM) *
Hi Marianne.

My greatgrandfather was also Barney Rutherford so that makes us 2nd cousins! I know Barney Rutherford was married twice: firstly to Mary Anne Bradley (my greatgrandmother) and secondly to Margaret Quigley. He had many children by both wives. Who was your greatgrandmother?
In post #64 of this topic I attached 2 files:
'My Family Tree' and 'My Meenavoy Ancestors'.
Both files have information about Barney Rutherford. We can communicate more by personal messages.

Regards,

Paul

My name is Bradley which came from Ireland,both my Grandparents were from the South.Donegal/Letterkenny Area I think.
My other Grandparents were Muldoons,funilly enough I`m now married to a Rutherford "Jane"

Posted by: Paul Kelly 16th Mar 2007, 07:00am

Hi Glasgowhobo.

Bradley is a very common surname in west Ulster (Donegal, Derry, Tyrone). Muldoon is also quite a common surname in south west Ulster around Fermanagh.

Regards,

Paul


2 other Irish surnames that have recently been brought to my attention and which are found in the Glasgow area are the south Ulster (Armagh, Monaghan) surname Fearon and the rare Donegal surname Frize.

I won't be online over the weekend so I would like to take this opportunity to wish all of you a happy and peaceful St Patrick's Day tomorrow.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 16th Mar 2007, 08:20am

Hi Glasgowhobo.

I meant to add in the last post that the Rutherford surname originates in the Scottish Borders. My greatgreatgrandfather, Alan Rutherford, was born in the 1830s near Lockerbie in the Scottish Borders. As a young man he moved from Scotland to Donegal to work as a policeman. He married a local Irish girl called Kate Tinney/Tunny from Meenavoy, Stranorlar. My greatgrandfather Barney Rutherford (born 1869) was one of their 5 children. My grandmother, Sarah Jane Rutherford, was born in Meenavoy in 1899. She married my grandfather, James Kelly (born Garngad, Glasgow 1895) around 1924/25. There is more information on the Ballybofey/Stranorlar Rutherfords in the attached files of post #64.

Paul

Posted by: rdem 16th Mar 2007, 08:22am

Hi Floss:

McIlduff is translated from the Gaelic as son of the servant of the dark haired one. "Mac Gilledubh"
By servant it usually refers to a devotee to a saint as in Gilchrist , Gillean, (servant of St. John) MacLean (also servan tof St. John). Duff, Duffy, are forms of "dubh" as the English clerks heard it.
It would as a common a surname in Gaelic in it's many forms as Black is in English. In the Edward McLysaght's book the Surnames of Ireland it is listed as a Cavan surname. It appears that it is found in both Ireland and Scotland since in G. F. Black's the Surname sof Scotland it is listed as early as 1275 at Beauly in Inverness shire. In succeeding centuries it is found in the Borders and Galloway.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 16th Mar 2007, 01:01pm

Hi Fiona and Ron

I have been researching a bit more about the relatively rare surname McIlduff.

First of all Ron, I would have to agree with you that the McIlduff surname seems to have originated in both Ireland and Scotland, independantly of one another. (This is not a unique situation. See my post #55 about the surnames McCready and McKelvey)

The Scottish Gaelic version of the surname is MacGilleDubh and this Scottish surname originated in Galloway. Through time the name became abbreviated to McDuff (MacDubh) and was eventually completely Anglicised to Duff. The Duff surname is also found in other parts of Scotland and Duff is considered to be quite a common Scottish surname. It seems that the McIlduff surname completely died out of Scotland.
There are Duffs in east Ulster (Antrim and Down) today who are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestants Planters from Galloway.

The Irish Gaelic version of the surname is MacGiollaDuibh and this Irish surname originated in the Irish Midlands and South Ulster. In the Irish Midlands the surname was Anglicised to Kilduff. In South Ulster (Armagh, Monaghan, Down and Cavan) the surname was Anglicised to McIlduff.

The McIlduff surname was reintroduced into Scotland in the 19th century by Catholic Irish immigrants from South Ulster (Armagh, Monaghan,etc).

Fiona, I am sure you are descended from the Irish MacGiollaDuibh family and not the Scottish MacGilleDubh family.

Finally, not all the Duffs in Ireland are descended from 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters. Some of the Irish Duffs are related to the native Irish Duffy (O'Duibhthaigh) family and to the native Irish MacGiollaDuibh (Kilduff, McIlduff) family.

The following is a good website for searching for ancestors. It is also free!

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true

Posted by: Paul Kelly 19th Mar 2007, 10:13am

Another Irish surname quite commonly found in Scotland due to 19th century Irish immigration into Scotland is Creaney.

Magee/McGee is a native Irish surname originating in Ulster. McGhee is an unrelated Scottish surname originating in Galloway, Ayrshire and Dumfries. There has been a lot of intermingling of these surnames. For example, many of the Magees in east Ulster today are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McGhee Planters from Galloway and Ayrshire. In addition, many of the McGhees in the Glasgow area today are descendants of 19th century Catholic Irish Magee/McGee immigrants from mainly west Ulster.

McGowan is a native Irish surname originating in Ulster. However, there is also an unrelated Scottish surname McGowan, originating in various parts of Scotland including Stirlingshire and Dumfries. Some of the McGowans in east Ulster (Antrim and Down) today are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters. Moreover, some of the McGowans in the Glasgow area today are descendants of 19th century Catholic Irish immigrants from west Ulster (Donegal) and south Ulster (Cavan and Monaghan).

Posted by: Floss 19th Mar 2007, 05:08pm

Hi Paul

Thanks once again for the interesting info. I've been researching the McIlduffs for about 5 years and its very slow going but have been in contact with quite a few people who are researching the same name including someone from America researching the Duff family (originally McIlduff) who moved to America c1746.

Thanks once again
Fiona

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Apr 2007, 07:37am

Continuing with my last post, the McKee surname is related to McGee/McGhee surname. Like the McGee/McGhee surname, McKee can be of Scottish or Irish origins. However, having said that, it seems that the majority of McKees are of Scottish origins, and most of the McKees in Ulster today are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Galloway.

In an earlier post, I had said that Gracie is an Irish surname. This was incorrect. Gracie is in fact a Scottish surname. However, Grace is considered to be an Irish surname.

McBride is a common native Gaelic Irish surname originating in West Ulster (County Donegal). However, there is also a rare unrelated Scottish McBride surname originating in Ayrshire.
Some of the McBrides in East Ulster today are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McBride Planters from Ayrshire.
Most of the McBrides in the Glasgow area today are descendants of 19th century Catholic Irish immigrants from West Ulster

Posted by: rdem 3rd Apr 2007, 09:27am

My great great great grandfather's name was Mathew Brown, born in Cty. Down. His sister's name was Ann was married to a Moses McKie. They lived at Gatehouse of Fleet. I have the feeking they were descended from Scottish transplants.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Apr 2007, 09:45am

I was recently sent an email in which I was asked about the 3 surnames McAfee, McDuffie and McGraw and whether they are Scottish or Irish. I have been doing some research and these are the conclusions I reached:

McAfee is the Irish spelling of the Scottish surname McPhee (McFie) and is quite commonly found in Ulster. Its seems that these Ulster McAfees are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McPhee Planters from Argyll.

Similarly, Mahaffy is the Irish spelling of the Scottish surname McHaffie and is quite commonly found in Ulster. It seems that most of the Mahaffys in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McHaffie Planters from Galloway and Ayrshire. There has been some intermingling of the McAfee and Mahaffy Planter surnames.

McDuffie is a Scottish surname. It is not related to the Scottish surname McDuff (Duff). Instead it is related to the Scottish surname McPhee. Incidentally, the Scottish surnames of McDuffie and McDuff are in no way related to the Irish surname Duffy (O'Duffy).
McDuffie, McDuff and Duff are generally regarded to be Scottish surnames while Duffy and McIlduff are generally regarded to be Irish surnames.
(see post #111)

McGrath (pronounced McGrah) is a common Irish surname. McRae/McCrea is a common Scottish surname. It seems that some McGraws are related to the Irish McGrath family, while other McGraws are related to the Scottish McRae/McCrea family. So McGraw can be an Irish or a Scottish surname. You would need to know more about your family history.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 6th Apr 2007, 02:17pm

Kearns and Kearney are Irish surnames. Cairns and Cairney are Scottish surnames. Most of the 19th century Irish Kearns and Kearney immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded in the Scottish forms of Cairns and Cairney.

Posted by: blackirish 6th Apr 2007, 08:24pm

Hi guys, I found that my surname, McFayden, is scottish. what can u tell, especially about any irsh connection? I am red hair and freckles.......... however I am not caucasian.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 7th Apr 2007, 09:49am

Agnew is a Scottish surname originating in Galloway. The Agnew surname is also quite common in east Ulster. Some of these Ulster Agnews are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Galloway. However, the Agnew surname was also adopted by a native Catholic Irish family - the O'Gnimh family who were connected to the O'Neills - in the years following the Plantations, so some of the Agnews in Ulster today are of native Irish descent.
It is actually speculated that O'Gnimh family were originally a Scottish Gallowglass family from Argyll who came to Ulster in the 14th/15th century to fight for the O'Neills.
(See my discussion of Gallowglasses under the topic 'Are The Scots Really Irish?' in this Family History Forum)

Posted by: Lavelle 7th Apr 2007, 11:05am

I have been reading through your lists of common Irish surnames in Scotland. It seems you have forgotten mine, the French-sounding Lavelle (from County Mayo)

Posted by: poppygirl 7th Apr 2007, 03:03pm

what about McQuaid (spelling different)

Posted by: Paul Kelly 10th Apr 2007, 09:28am

McQuaid is an alternative spelling of the County Monaghan surname McQuade. The McQuaid/McQuade surname is commonly found in south Ulster - Monaghan, Armagh, Fermanagh and south Tyrone.

Similarly, the County Donegal surname McDaid is sometimes spelt McDade. The McDaid/McDade surname is commonly found in west Ulster - Donegal (particularly the Inishowen Peninsula), Derry and west Tyrone. The McDaid/McDade family is related to the O'Doherty (Docherty) family.

Posted by: Brooney 25th Apr 2007, 01:19pm

Don't forget the Irish surname Browne.

Posted by: Cassidy 14th May 2007, 09:39am

And Cassidy

Posted by: marydee 14th May 2007, 08:47pm

And the worse one of all Mellon

Posted by: lindamac 15th May 2007, 01:10pm

How come Mellon is the worst one just interested Marydee?

Posted by: penny dainty 18th May 2007, 10:28pm

Dont think I would like to be called Penny Mellon Linda, or Mrs. Mellon for that matter.I have never heard the name actually.

Posted by: Java 19th May 2007, 07:22am

Personally, I've found it worst purely for the number of variant spellings....Mallon, Mellon, Mullen, Mallen, and so on....have a Catherine M*ll*n in my tree and ah dont think she's been listed the same way twice....laugh.gif

Posted by: RonD 19th May 2007, 10:37am

I know what you mean Java, my Mary McNeillis had 7 children and her maiden name is given 7 different ways everything from McNeil to Manylaws.

Posted by: mungo 20th May 2007, 09:46am

I've been researching my partner's family tree recently. As with a lot of Glaswegian families, his ancestors came from Ireland. I have eight different spellings for his Great Great Grandmother ranging from Dinaney, Dunning, Dinnan, Dinning and Dinining amongst others. It certainly makes it a little tougher when looking for records!

Posted by: RonD 20th May 2007, 12:27pm

As mentioned previously, a good site to search family is www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk . However, when searching for a name that may have multiple spellings use wild cards. So if I am looking up my own name of Dempsey I would enter it this way D*m*s*y that way it will cover Demsy, Demsey, Dimpsey etc. It will also cover Dempsie and Dempsey if I leave off the 'y' but will include other names as well such as Demspter. Although if you are searching a particular area then it shouldn't matter only when you are looking all of Scotland will it be cumbersome. Hope this helps.

Posted by: wee mags 20th May 2007, 12:57pm

my cousin Anne 1 and I have grandparents by the name of Halfpenny,and there are many ways it has been changed Happenny,Halpin and many moreand they had fifteen children . two died early and one died when she was 12, my mum and Annes were sisters and we have been in touch with a cousin in England who is doing Family research ,her dad was our mums Brother

Posted by: Heather 20th May 2007, 01:51pm

My sister who does a lot of Ancestor searching got a copy of our g'grandfather's marriage Certificate. The surname is spelt Curran which is our own name. I emailed the Priest in St. Mungo's Townhead and he said the details I gave him all matched up except the surname which was spelt Corrins in the Parish Register. G'grandfather was born in Ireland, so I think it was his accent that caused the wrong spelling.
I was at the Mitchell during the week and they gave me an address to go to in Belfast who have records for all of Ireland.

Public Record Office of Northern Ireland
66 Balmoral Avenue
Belfast BT9 6NY
Northern Ireland

Telephone No. Int. 44 28 9025 5905
GB 028 9025 5905
email: proni@dcalni.gov.uk

Posted by: Guest mungo * 20th May 2007, 04:57pm

Thanks for this. I've been on the Scotland's People site many times (should really lock up my debit card up when I go on it!). I'm going through to Edinburgh to look at the records there in a couple of weeks to continue searching. Thanks for the help with using the wild cards too. I'll give that a try.
Was at The Mitchell Library in Glasgow looking at Poorhouse records last week and was successful with a couple of searches.
As for the Irish connections, I'll probably go off in other directions when they become too difficult for now. Can anyone tell me if it states the place of birth as 'Ireland, Leitrim' if this means the town of Leitrim or Country Leitrim?

Posted by: marydee 21st May 2007, 09:50pm

Lindamac I married the first guy who asked just to get rid of that name...you introduce yourself to someone as Mary Mellon and they either laugh or say WHAT? Then there was the Mellon's smellin' or the crude association with breasts. The only comfort I take from it is that one of the richest families in the world shares this name with me and that Sir James Mellon, former Ambassador to Denmark was born in Glasgow.

Posted by: lindamac 22nd May 2007, 02:59am

laugh.gif laugh.gif sorry fur laughing Marydee dolls but I just hadn't thought Mellon was that bad but then ave not lived with it haha cheers & thanks for the insightful reasons why Mellon tae you is the worst of all..........couldve been worse a think add rether be mellon than scotts porridgeoats hahaScott is my maiden name so I was glad tae gain my new surname so spose Iam understanding why ye were glad tae chinge it cos I was too.cheers Marydee.

Posted by: georgia 22nd May 2007, 06:33am

I too was happy to let my maiden surname of LOCHHEAD go.

I have researched my family tree and also found the 'name changes'. On my paternal grandmothers side McVEY became McVAY. On my maternal grandmothers side, when I went back 150 years, ARMIT became ARMOUR.

Posted by: RonD 22nd May 2007, 08:26am

Now, I'm not going out of my way to be rude, but I helped someone years ago in family research and the mother's maiden name was Hanger, the grandmother's name was Titt and the great grand mother's name was Ball!!!

Posted by: Anne1 22nd May 2007, 10:14am

laugh.gif laugh.gif dont believe you Ron are you taking the mick

Posted by: georgia 22nd May 2007, 10:25am

QUOTE (RonD @ 22nd May 2007, 09:43 AM) *
Now, I'm not going out of my way to be rude, but I helped someone years ago in family research and the mother's maiden name was Hanger, the grandmother's name was Titt and the great grand mother's name was Ball!!!



Imagine hyphenating that lot intae a triple-barrelled surname laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: RonD 22nd May 2007, 11:34am

Honest Anne, I wouldn't stoop to naughty bits humour on this board., well mibbee if it wiz clever, but no, this is true story. Similarly, an ex co woker had mother named Green, her mother was Black and her grandmother was White.

Posted by: angel 22nd May 2007, 01:25pm

I knew of a woman whose name was " Myrle May Leak"

she was welsh! Angel

Posted by: angel 22nd May 2007, 01:27pm

QUOTE (angel @ 22nd May 2007, 12:42 PM) *
I knew of a woman whose name was " Myrle May Leak"

she was welsh! Angel

spelling _Myrtle'

Posted by: georgia 22nd May 2007, 02:27pm

We used to have neighbours by the name of Hiscock. I won't give out their sons full christian name but the initials are C. Hiscock...the poor lad took lots of stick. Ye would imagine that folk with a surname like that would think before they give their kids a name with that initial. ohmy.gif

Posted by: Paul Kelly 31st May 2007, 09:49am

I have been reading through some of the old posts on this topic and I noticed that I had previously described McKean as an Irish surname. McKean or McKane or McCain is in fact the 'Irish' spelling of the Scottish Planter surname McIain (MacEain), so strictly speaking McKean is a Scottish surname. Most of the McKeans in Ulster today are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McIain Planters though it is possible that a few native Gaelic Irish families in Ulster adopted the McKean surname in the years following the Plantations.

http://www.hoganstand.com/general/Identity/folk.htm

McKean should not be confused with the native Gaelic Irish surnames of Kane (O'Kane) and Keane. See post #197 of this topic for a discussion of the native Gaelic Irish O'Cathain (O'Cahan) surname.

I also noticed that someone had been asking about the McFadden and McFadyen surnames. McFadyen is a Scottish surname originating in Kintyre whereas McFadden is generally considered to be an Irish surname. In my introduction to this topic I had mentioned that some of the 19th century Irish McFadden immigrants to Scotland had had their surnames recorded incorrectly in the Scottish form of McFadyen. That was certainly the case for some of the Irish McFadden immigrants, particularly in the early years of Irish immigration into Scotland.

McFadden is a common surname in West Ulster (particularly County Donegal) and most of these McFaddens are Catholics. There is some dispute over the origins of the Donegal McFaddens. Some people say the Donegal McFaddens are descendants of 14th century Scottish Catholic McFadyen Gallowglasses from Kintyre in southern Argyll, whereas others say the McFaddens are a native Gaelic Irish family of Donegal. (See my discussion of Gallowglasses in the topic 'Are the Scots Really Irish?')
Most likely the Donegal McFaddens are a combination of both of these. I should add that a few of the Ulster McFaddens are in fact Protestants, particularly in east Ulster (Antrim and Down) and these Irish Protestant McFaddens are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McFadyen Planters who adopted the Irish spelling of the surname.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 31st May 2007, 12:23pm

McLaughlin/McLoughlin is a native Irish Gaelic surname originating in the Inishowen Peninsula of County Donegal in west Ulster. McLachlan/McLauchlan is an unrelated Scottish Gaelic surname originating in the Cowal Peninsula of southern Argyll. In my introduction to this topic I had mentioned that some of the 19th century Irish McLaughlin immigrants to Scotland had had their surnames recorded incorrectly in the Scottish form of McLachan. This was certainly the case for the Irish McLaughlins who arrived in Scotland in the early/mid 19th century. However, those who arrived in the late 19th century tended to have their surnames recorded correctly as McLaughlin. As you might expect, most of the McLaughlins in Ulster are Catholics. However, a few of the McLaughlins in east Ulster (Antrim and Down) are Protestants and are descendants of 17th century Scottish McLachlan Planters who adopted the Irish spelling of the surname.

McCullough/McCullagh (MacConUladh) is a native Irish Gaelic surname originating in mid Ulster (east Tyrone). McCulloch (MacCullaich) is an unrelated Scottish surname originating in Galloway. Virtually all of the 19th century Irish McCullough immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded in the Scottish form of McCulloch. However, while some of the Ulster McCulloughs are native Catholic Irish, just as many of them are Protestant decendants of the large number of 17th century Scottish McCulloch Planters from Galloway and Ayrshire who adopted the Irish spelling of the surname after their arrival in Ulster.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 31st May 2007, 02:19pm

My interest in surnames began when I was researching my family tree and I realised that quite a number of Irish and Scottish surnames are very similar. I wondered if their similarity meant that they were somehow related. My McCormick greatgreatgrandparents arrived in Scotland from County Donegal in 1864. When I checked the few Irish records that were available I realised that their surname had been spelt McCormack when they were still in Ireland. Their surname had become McCormick when they arrived in Scotland. (They were illiterate so it is is likely that it would have been Irish and then Scottish officials who were deciding the spelling of their surname.)

McCormick is a Scottish surname originating in Ayrshire. McCormack is an unrelated Irish surname originating in Ireland and has more than one origin. I am sure I am descended from the native Gaelic Irish McCormack family from west Ulster (east Donegal and west Derry/Tyrone). Incidentally, there are also many McCormicks in Ulster, particularly east Ulster (Antrim/Down), and they are largely descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Ayrshire, Dumfries and Galloway. In Ulster, the spelling 'McCormack' tends to signify that you are of native Catholic Irish stock, whereas the spelling 'McCormick' usually signifies that you are of Scottish Protestant Planter extraction. As you might expect, this is by no means a hard and fast rule!

Many of the 19th century Catholic Irish McCormack immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recordedly incorrectly in the Scottish form of McCormick and their descendants have continued to use this Scottish form of the surname, as has been the case with my McCormick relatives.

Although several Irish and Scottish surnames are very similar, I now realise that, in most cases, these similar sounding surnames are completely unrelated. The modest 15th century Scottish Galloglass settlements in Ulster followed by the massive 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster and the large 19th century Irish immigration (from mainly Ulster) into Scotland have all accentuated the blurring of these similar sounding Irish and Scottish surnames.

It is clear that many Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic surnames have been Anglicised into similar sounding surnames and in some cases identical surnames. For example, in post #55 of this topic, I discussed the surname McKelvey. McKelvey can be an Irish or a Scottish surname but they are not related in any way. The Irish Gaelic surname MacGiollaBhui (meaning 'the golden boy') originates in County Donegal. The Scottish Gaelic surname MacShealbhaigh (meaning 'possessive' or 'grasping') originates in Galloway. Both these surnames have been Anglicised to McKelvey! Furthermore, there are many McKelveys in east Ulster who are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant 'MacShealbhaigh' Planters from Galloway, and there are many McKelveys in Scotland/Glasgow who are descendants of 19th century Catholic Irish 'MacGiollaBhui' immigrants from west Ulster (Donegal).

When researching surnames, things are not always how they first seem.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 14th Jun 2007, 04:55pm

Recently I received an email from a lady in Glasgow asking me what I know about the McClintock/McLintock surname. The lady said her greatgrandfather was a Catholic McClintock from County Donegal who settled in Glasgow around 1892. She said she had been investigating the McClintock surname and was always reading that it is a Scottish surname and not an Irish surname.

Undoubtedly McClintock is a Scottish surname. However, the McClintocks were one of the original Planter families to settle in County Donegal in the early days of the 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster. They have now been in Donegal for about 400 years, having come originally from Luss, Dunbartonshire on the western banks of Loch Lomond. They were a Protestant family, but over the past few centuries it is likely that a few McClintock males have married native Catholic Irish girls and raised their children as Catholics. 'Mixed marriages' were quite rare in Donegal and in Ulster in general, but they did happen occasionaly as I have seen in my own Donegal Rutherford family history (post #64). So while the majority of McClintock families in Donegal were Protestant, there would also have been a few Catholic ones.

In a few of my earlier posts I mentioned that some native Catholic Irish families adopted Scottish and English Planter surnames as the Anglicised versions of their Gaelic surnames in the years following the Plantations when they thought it was advantageous to do so, and I gave some examples such as Gillespie, Murray, Houston, Patten, Hughes, Rodgers, Woods, etc. However, I don't think this was the case for the McClintock Planter surname. I think the Catholic McClintocks of Donegal arose from a few mixed marriages.

While investigating the McClintock surname I came across another Scottish Planter surname commonly found in Donegal which has connections with the Loch Lomond area. The Buchanans came originally from the eastern banks of Loch Lomond in Stirlingshire. During the 17th century Scottish Protestant Plantation of Ulster they settled in quite large numbers in west Tyrone and Donegal.

Posted by: Heather 14th Jun 2007, 11:01pm

My niece's married name is , ' McKelvie '. Another way of spelling McKelvey.

A few years ago I was over in Meath, Ireland with my sister and American brother-in-law who was tracing his g'father. They spell their name, ' Hines ' but discovered the records in the Chapel where his g'father was Baptised the name is spelt,' Hinds'. They have also found other records with it spelt, ' Hynes', and O'Hynes'. What a mix up.

Posted by: Cully 20th Jun 2007, 08:16am

Another Irish surname is Cullen

Posted by: maggie hen 20th Jun 2007, 10:39pm

My maiden name is O'neill,Irish or what.xxx

Posted by: Guest Maggie * 27th Jun 2007, 12:01pm

Hi, what about FOY aka FEY, FOYE
Think they were from Co Down, NI
Also: Costello arrived Govan from NI not sure where YET

Posted by: Paul Kelly 28th Jun 2007, 07:52am

Hi Maggie.

The Costello surname originates in Mayo/Galway in the west of Ireland, though it is likely that a few of them migrated to the north of Ireland (Ulster) over the centuries. The Foy (O'Fiaich pronouced O'Foy) surname originates in south Ulster (Armagh, Fermanagh, Monaghan and Cavan). Foy is sometimes spelt Fee and should not be confused with the Scottish Planter surname of McFee/McAfee (See Post #116).

Another south Ulster surname that has recently been brought to my attention is Farmer (from Monaghan/Fermanagh).


Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 17th Jul 2007, 12:26pm

I briefly mentioned the McAuley surname in post #24 of the topic "Are the Scots Really Irish?' when discussing Galloglass families. McAuley/McAulay is a very interesting surname. It can be a Scottish or an Irish surname. In fact there are 4 unrelated McAuley families, 2 Irish and 2 Scottish.

There is an Irish Gaelic McAuley family originating in west Ulster (Fermanagh/Donegal) and another originating in the Irish Midlands (Westmeath/Offaly). These 2 native Irish McAuley families often spell their surname as McCauley (and sometimes even McGawley).

In Scotland, there is a MacAulay family originating in the Isle of Lewis in the Western Isles (Outer Hebrides) and they are said to be of Viking (Norse) origin. There is another Scottish McAulay family originating in the Rosneath peninsula of West Dunbartonshire and the eastern part of the Cowal peninsula in east Argyll. This family is generally regarded to be of Dalriadic origins. The Rosneath peninsula has Loch Long to its west and Gareloch to its east. Loch Long was traditionally the border between Argyll and Dunbartonshire, though these days parts of west Dumbartonshire - including the Rosneath peninsula - are considered to be in Argyll. The chief of this McAulay family was based at Ardincaple which is just to the west of the village of Roseneath. In the early 16th century many of the Ardincaple (Rosneath and east Cowal) McAuleys settled in northeast Ulster (Antrim) as Galloglasses before the late 16th century Scottish Reformation. Furthermore, in the 17th century many more of the the Ardincaple McAuleys came to east Ulster (Antrim and Down) as Scottish Protestant Planters.

The highest concentation of McAuleys in the world is said to be in County Antrim. Around a half of the Antrim McAuleys are Catholic (descended mainly from early 16th century Scottish Catholic Galloglasses, though a few are probably descended from native Irish west Ulster McAuleys.) The other half are Protestants descended from 17th century Scottish Planters from west Dunbartonshire and east Argyll.

Some people say that a few of the McCauleys in West Ulster are of Galloglass origins. It seems likely that a few of the Antrim Galloglass McAuleys migrated the short distance westwards to Derry and Donegal over the years.

I think it is fair to say that most people with the surname McAuley are of Scottish origins, including many of the McAuleys found in Ireland. However, there is no evidence that any of the McAuleys in Ireland are descended from the MacAulays of Lewis. The Scottish Galloglasses who settled in Ireland in the 14th, 15th and early 16th centuries came from the southwest Highlands of Scotland (mainland Argyll and Kintyre and the surrounding southern Inner Hebrides). They were NOT from the Western Isles (Outer Hebrides and northern Inner Hebrides) of the northwest Highlands of Scotland as is often imagined.

As I have said in the topic 'Are the Scots Really Irish?', there is no evidence of any Gallowglasses coming from the area to the north of Lorn/Lorne (Oban Benderloch and Mull) in northern Argyll.

(For an updated discussion of the McAuley Galloglasses, whose origins I now believe are the Isle of Islay, see http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=152633?'.)

Posted by: Paul Kelly 18th Jul 2007, 10:13am

In my post yesterday about the McAuley surname, I stated that the McCauley family of west Ulster (Fermanagh/Donegal) is a native Gaelic Irish family. However, I also said that some of the Donegal McCauleys are supposed be of Scottish Galloglass descent. I said it is likely that a few of the Antrim Galloglass McAuleys had migrated into Donegal.

However, there is a possible alternative explanation for the Galloglass origins of some of the Donegal McCauleys. In the 15th and 16th centuries, many Catholic MacColla Gallowglasses from the southern Inner Hebridean islands of Colonsay and Islay settled in Donegal. The MacColla surname in Donegal is usually given in the Anglicised form of Coll. Coll is now a common surname in Donegal. However, it is possible that some of the MacColla Galloglasses in Donegal had their surnames Anglicised as McCauley. It is just a theory but MacColla and McCauley are very similar sounding surnames and the McCauley surname already existed in Donegal.

The Coll surname of Donegal should not be confused with the McCall surname which is commonly found in south and east Ulster. The McCall family of south Ulster (Monaghan/Cavan) is a native Gaelic Irish family and the surname is often spelt McCaul. Many of the McCalls in east Ulster (Antrim/Down) are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McCall AND McColl Planters from Galloway/Dumfries/Ayrshire AND Argyll respectively, while the others are related to the native Catholic Irish McCalls/McCauls of south Ulster.

Posted by: mcaulaymunn 18th Jul 2007, 10:52am

Very interesting.
I will have to read all the posts properly, as I have just scanned though them.

My McAulays were from Kilmaronock, near Bonhill.

Slater, sometimes spelt Sclater from Paisley.1700's.

Munn from Renfrew, then Dunbartonshire.

Confusing I have McColl, McCuill, McCouill, so many different spellings in my family.

I have gone back to the early 1700's and all sides were born in Scotland,

I am trying to find if any of them were from Ireland, Vikings, or ?

Can't wait to read all you post.

wink.gif

Posted by: jo thompson 23rd Jul 2007, 09:48pm

My great grandmother was born in Glasgow in 1943 and her name was Macaren.Is this an Irish name. I cannot find any reference to this name and am wondering where it originates. My mother always said i was from Irish Scottish stock

Posted by: Paul Kelly 25th Jul 2007, 12:56pm

Hi Jo.

I have never heard of the surname Macaren but it sounds suspiciously like the Scottish surname McLaren. Did you mean to say your great grandmother was born in Glasgow in 1843?

The term 'Scots-Irish' or 'Scotch-Irish' or 'Ulster-Scots' refers to Protestants from the north of Ireland who are largely descendants of 17th century Scottish Planters. Many Scots-Irish emigrated from Ulster to the United States (and elsewhere) in the 18th and early 19th centuries. The term 'Scotch-Irish' was first used in the United States to differentiate these Protestant Irish immigrants from the mid to late 19th century Catholic or native Irish immigrants who arrived in the United States in the wake of the mid 19th century Irish Potato Famine. Many American Presidents have had substantial Scots-Irish ancestry. Even the current American President, George W Bush, has some Scots-Irish ancestry. If you do a GOOGLE search for SCOTCH-IRISH or SCOTS-IRISH you will find a lot of info on the topic. The term 'Hillbilly' was also first used to describe some of the rural Scots-Irish in America.

I have mentioned in previous posts that most of the 19th century Irish immigrants to Scotland came from the north of Ireland, and most experts now estimate that around 25% of these immigrants were in fact Protestant Scots-Irish. Most of the Protestant Irish who came to Glasgow arrived in the early to mid 19th century. Many of them were weavers from the Belfast area who settled in the east end of Glasgow weaving district of Calton. Some Protestant Irish also settled in Partick and Govan in the west of Glasgow, and many of their descendants worked in the shipyards.

I hope I am not way off the mark about you great grandmother's ancestry.

Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 25th Jul 2007, 01:05pm

Hi again Jo.

McCarron is a native Irish surname which is commonly found in west Ulster (Donegal, Derry, Tyrone).
I suspect Macaren either stands for the Scottish Planter surname McLaren or the native Irish surname McCarron.

Paul


http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname

Posted by: Paul Kelly 30th Jul 2007, 09:49am

I recently received a message from someone asking me about the McMillan and McMullan surnames. MacMillan or McMillan (MacGhilleMhaoil) is a Scottish surname and it seems to have originated in more than one part of Scotland. McMullen or McMullan (MacMaolain) is an unrelated Irish surname originating in County Derry in west Ulster.

There has been some intermingling of these 2 surnames. Firstly, it seems that some of the McMullans in east Ulster (Antrim and Down) are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McMillan Planters from Galloway, Dumfries and Ayrshire who adopted the Irish spelling of the surname. It also seems likely that some of the illiterate 19th century Irish McMullen immigrants to Scotland would have had their surnames recorded in the Scottish form of McMillan.

Posted by: Guest Tracey * 30th Jul 2007, 12:43pm

I have been researching my ancestors recently. I have discovered that my mum's 4 grandparents were all born in Ireland and settled in Scotland. I think they were all from County Donegal but I am not completely sure. My Irish greatgrandparents surnames were Carberry, Harkin or Harkins, Heron or Herron, Diver or Divers. The spellings of the surnames vary from document to document. My dad's ancestors all seem to be Scottish.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 1st Aug 2007, 08:20am

Harkin, Diver/Dever and Carberry are all native Irish surnames and the first 2 are very common in County Donegal, though Carberry is also found in Donegal. The Harron/Herron surname is also common in Donegal and is of mixed origins. Some Donegal Herrons are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Heron Planters, though the majority of Donegal Herrons are probably descended from the native Irish O'hEarain family who Anglicised their surname to Herron in the years following the 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 1st Aug 2007, 08:57am

I have briefly discussed the McIntyre and McAteer surnames before but I would like to say a bit more about them. McIntyre is a Scottish surname originating in Argyll. McAteer is an unrelated native Irish surname originating in Ulster. It is thought that SOME of the native Irish McAteers might be descendants of c15th century Scottish Catholic McIntyre Gallowglasses from Argyll. It is a possibility though no one really knows for sure. One thing that is known for sure is that some Scottish Protestant McIntyres settled in Ulster during the 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster. It seems that some of these Scottish McIntyre Planters adopted the native Irish McAteer surname, particularly in east Ulster (Antrim and Down). Moreover, in the years following the Plantation, it seems that some of the native Irish McAteers in west Ulster (Donegal and Derry) adopted the Scottish Planter surname McIntyre. All very confusing!!! However, it seems that most of the 19th century Irish McAteer immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded correctly as McAteer. Nowadays McAteer is quite a common surname in the Glasgow area due to 19th century Irish immigration. McIntyre is of course a very common surname in Scotland.

McCallum is a Scottish surname originating in Argyll. McCollum (sometimes spelt McColm) is an unrelated native Irish surname originating in Ulster. It is thought that some of the native Irish McCollums might be descendants of c15th century Scottish Catholic McCallum Gallowglasses from Argyll. Again no one really knows for sure. However, it is known that some Scottish Protestant McCallums settled in Ulster during the 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster and they ALL seem to have adopted the Irish surname McCollum. In fact, it seems that most of the McCollums in Ulster are of Scottish McCallum Planter extaction as opposed to native Irish stock. Finally, most if not all of the 19th century Irish McCollum immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded in the Scottish form of McCallum.

Posted by: RonD 1st Aug 2007, 12:20pm

Hi Paul: I'm helping a friend with their family history and came across a lady by the surname Shannon, (not unheard of, but this documentation was from Scottish records) but when I found her mentioned on an Irish record she is listed as McShannog. Now, I see that from my resources Shannon can have both O and Mac derivations but I can't see anything remotely near this name listed as "Shannog" even after playing with vowels and dropping the "h". Would you have anything in your resources?

Posted by: Paul Kelly 1st Aug 2007, 03:19pm

Hi Ron

http://www.gencircles.com/users/davidcheek/1/bysurname?McShannog

This Margaret McShannog was born in Scotland in 1797.

Shannon is undoubtedly an Irish surname but McShannon appears to be an obscure Scottish surname. I have looked through the International Genealogical Index and the McShannon surname seems to come from Kintyre, Scotland. The surname also appears in County Antrim, Ireland. I suspect a few McShannons moved from Kintyre to Antrim during the 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster.

Posted by: RonD 2nd Aug 2007, 10:37am

Thanks Paul: It's amazing how many of the Western Isles and Antrim names are interchangeable.

Cheers

Posted by: wee mags 2nd Aug 2007, 12:29pm

My Grandparents name was Halfpenny my granddads family came from Ireland

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Aug 2007, 07:07am

I have never heard of the Halfpenny surname before but I have just done a little research on it. Despite the fact that a small English Halfpenny Planter family probably settled in the east of Ireland in the 17th century, it seems that the majority of Halfpennys in the east of Ireland are descendants of the native Gaelic Irish O'hAilpin family who adopted Halfpenny as the Anglicised version of their surname in the years following the 17th century Plantations in Ireland. In the west of Ireland, the O'hAilpin surname was usually Anglicised as Halpin.

In post #163 I was discussing the Irish surname McAteer and the Scottish surname McIntyre and the intermingling of these 2 surnames. In a similar vain, McArthur is a Scottish surname originating in Argyll. The McArthurs are said to be related to the Campbells of Argyll. During the 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster a number of McArthurs settled in Ulster. The McArthur surname is often spelt McCarter in Ulster - this is how an Irishman would pronounce the McArthur surname! However, it seems that a few of the Scottish Protestant McArthur/McCarter Planters in Ulster adopted the native Irish McAteer surname. Moreover, in post #163 I said it appears that most of the 19th century Irish McAteer immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded correctly as McAteer. However, there is some evidence that a few of the 19th century Irish McAteer immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded incorrectly as the Scottish surname McArthur.

The native Irish McGuinness (sometimes spelt McGinness or Magennis) surname originates in County Down in southeast Ulster and the surname is commonly found throughout Ulster. McInnes is an unrelated Scottish surname. It seems that a few Scottish Protestant McInnes Planters settled in Ulster in the 17th century and most of them adopted the native Irish McGuinness/Magennis surname. It also seems likely that a few of the 19th century Irish McGuinness immigrants to Scotland would have had their surnames recorded in the Scottish form of McInnes.

In the same way, I am sure there has also been some intermingling of the Irish surname Ennis and the Scottish surname Innes.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Aug 2007, 11:04am

In post #154 I was discussing the McAuley surname which is commonly found in County Antrim and I said that approximately a half of the Antrim McAuleys are Catholic and the other half are Protestant. Recently, I have been contacted by someone from Northern Ireland in connection with post #154, and another surname which is commonly found in County Antrim - McCambridge - has been drawn to my attention.

The McCambridge surname originates in the southern part of the Kintyre peninsula, Argyll, Scotland. During the 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster, a number of Protestant McCambridge families were encouraged to move from Kintyre to north Antrim. By the 18th century, the McCambridge surname was virtually unheard of in Scotland. Nearly all the McCambridges were now living in County Antrim. I have been informed (reliably I hope!) that approximately a half of the McCambridges in County Antrim today are Protestant and the other half are Catholic. Given that the 17th century Scottish McCambridge Planters from Kintyre were Protestants you might wonder why this situation has arisen. There are 2 possible explanations. Firstly, the northern part of County Antrim (around the Glens of Antrim) is the part of County Antrim where Catholics are in the majority. So given that the McCambridge Planters settled in north Antrim amongst many Catholic families, it is likely that some McCambridge men have married into these Catholic families over the past 4 centuries. Of course, mixed marriages have never been that common in Ulster so another possible explanation is that some Catholic McCambridge families moved from Kintyre to north Antrim in the 16th century before the late 16th century Reformation in Scotland. If you look at a map of the British Isles you will see that the islands of Britain and Ireland are closest between the Mull of Kintyre and the north Antrim coast. There have been many migrations back and forward between Kintyre and north Antrim over the past 2 millennia. It seems likely that some McCambridge families from southern Kintyre settled in north Antrim in the early to mid 16th century before the large and organised 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster.

The McCambridge surname was reintroduced into Scotland in the mid 19th century by Irish immigrants. Most, if not all, of the McCambridges in Scotland today are descendants of 19th century Irish immigrants from Ulster, especially County Antrim.

For further discussion of the McCambridge surname, see post #65 of the topic 'Are the Scots Really Irish?

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Aug 2007, 02:45pm

The Tinney (or Tinny) surname is meant to have originated in the north of England. My greatgreatgrandmother was a Catherine (Kate) Tinney from Meenavoy, Stranorlar, County Donegal (born circa 1840). It seems that there was a small English Tinny Planter family in County Donegal. However, the majority of Tinneys in County Donegal appear to be descended from the native Gaelic Irish MacAntSionnaigh (pronounced McAtinney) family who Anglicised their surname to Tinney in the years following the 17th century Plantations in Ireland. I think Kate Tinney was from this native Irish family.

In the 1857 Griffith's Valuation for County Donegal (which lists the heads of all the households in Donegal c1857) Kate's father - my greatgreatgreatgrandfather - is listed as a John Tunny of Meenavoy, Stranorlar. I think John Tunny was born in Drumkeen, Convoy, Donegal in the early 1800s and he married and settled in Meenavoy, Stranorlar. John Tunny's children and grandchildren all spelled their surname Tinney.

Tunney or Tunny (O'Tonnaigh) is a surname associated with Counties Mayo and Sligo in the west of Ireland and is often confused with the Donegal Tinney (Mac an tSionnaigh) surname. The confusion is understandable as the Tinney surname is pronounced 'Tunny' in Donegal.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Aug 2007, 05:53pm

Hi Ron.

I have just been thinking about what you said in post #166. The following Scottish Catholic Gallowglass families all settled in County Antrim in the 14th, 15th and early 16th centuries: McDonnell (McDonald) from Kintyre and Islay in Argyll, McAllister (McAlister) from Kintyre in Argyll, McCoy (McKay) from Kintyre in Argyll, McNeill from Gigha and Colonsay in Argyll, McDowell (McDougall) from Lorn/Lorne in Argyll and McAuley (McAulay) from Islay in southern Argyll. In addition, Scottish Protestant Planter families with the same 6 surnames also settled in County Antrim in the 17th century.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 4th Aug 2007, 11:23am

I could have also included the McClean (McLean) surname in my last post but it is not nearly as numerous in County Antrim as the other 6 surnames listed above. A few McClean Galloglasses from the Isle of Mull in northern Argyll are said to have settled in Ulster in the 15th or early 16th century. However, the vast majority of McCleans (McLeans) in Antrim (and Ulster in general) are descendants of 17th century Scottish Planters.

Posted by: RonD 4th Aug 2007, 12:21pm

My great great grandmother was McDonald and her mother was and Ogilvie. Not sure where they originated suppose it was County Down My gg grandmother married a Brown from County Down who were in Scotland pre famine 1847-48. I surmised County Down from a a census report from his sister. From marriages of siblings it appears they were protestants, Maria Brown my great grandmother married my great grandfather Dempsey in a Catholic ceremony.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 5th Aug 2007, 08:37am

McKeever is a native Irish surname originating in west Ulster. McKeever is common in Tyrone and Derry and the spelling McGeever is common in Donegal. McIvor is an unrelated Scottish surname and has origins in more than one part of Scotland. There has been some intermingling of the Irish McKeever and Scottish McIvor surnames, particularly in Ulster.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 5th Aug 2007, 09:35am

The following surnames are all commonly found in Ulster and I have discussed them in previous posts: McHugh/McCue, McCoy/McKay, McKee and McGee/Magee. These surnames are often confused with one another and I would like to clarify a few things.

The McHugh/McCue surname is a native Irish surname originating in west Ulster and is common in County Donegal.

The McCoy/McKay surname is commonly found in east Ulster, particularly County Antrim. Some of the Ulster McCoys/McKays are descendants of 15th century Scottish Catholic McKay Galloglasses from Kintyre and Islay while the other Ulster McCoys/McKays are mainly descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McKay Planters from Kintyre. McCoy is the Irish spelling of the Scottish surname McKay and both forms of the surname are found in Ulster.

The McKee surname is commonly found in east Ulster, particularly Counties Down and Armagh. The Ulster McKees are mainly descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McKie Planters from Dumfries and Galloway. McKee is the Irish spelling of the Scottish surname McKie which originates in Galloway.

The McGee/Magee surname is common in both east and west Ulster. The McGee family of west Ulster (Donegal, Tyrone and Fermanagh) is a native Irish family. The Magees of east Ulster (Antrim and Down) are mainly descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McGhee Planters from Ayrshire and Galloway. McGhee is a Scottish surname originating in Galloway. The McGhee and McKie families of Galloway are said to be related.

Most of the 19th century Irish McCoy and McGee/Magee immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded in the Scottish forms of McKay and McGhee.

There has been some intermingling of all the above surnames because of the many movements of families between Scotland and Ireland.

Posted by: petalpeeps 7th Aug 2007, 03:33pm

my husbands family originate from ireland, our name is mcdonnell often confused with mcdonald

Posted by: peter patten 8th Aug 2007, 03:01am

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 26th Sep 2006, 06:04 AM) *
Campbell, Murray, Morrison and Patton/Patten are Scottish surnames and there are people in Ulster today with these surnames who are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters.

However, there were native Catholic Irish families in west Ulster - Donegal, Derry and Tyrone - who adopted these 4 surnames as the Anglicized versions of their Gaelic surnames shortly after the Plantation. Today, there are famous Catholic Irish families in Donegal and Tyrone with these surnames. In addition, some of the Catholic Campbells in Donegal are descendants of 14th century Scottish Gallowglasses. Campbell is a very common surname in County Donegal.
(See my discussion of Gallowglass families under the topic 'Are the Scots Really Irish?' in this 'Family History' forum.)

As a result, a significant minority of the Campbells, Murrays, Morrisons and Pattons in Scotland today are descendants of 19th century Catholic Irish immigrants from west Ulster, particularly in the Glasgow area.

well explained Paul, but hard for some to fathom. I knew an Irish Patton of Planter stock who thought the idea of a native Irish Patton sept was just a ploy to sell coats of arms to Yanks!?
At that point, I gave up on my explanation.
Best Regards,
Peter Patten
Vermont

Posted by: Paul Kelly 8th Aug 2007, 08:45am

There are at least 4 sources for the McDonnell surname in Ireland. There is a native Gaelic Irish McDonnell family originating in Clare/Limerick in the Provinve of Munster in the south west of Ireland. There is another native Gaelic Irish McDonnell family originating in Fermanagh/Monaghan in south west Ulster. There is a large McDonnell family in north east Ulster who are descendants of Scottish Catholic McDonald Galloglasses who moved from Kintyre and Islay in southern Argyll to the Glens of Antrim in the 14th century. There is also a large McDonnell family in County Mayo in the Province of Connacht in the west of Ireland who are also descendants of 14th/15th century Scottish Catholic McDonald Gallowglasses from southern Argyll. Some McDonnell Galloglasses are even said to have settled in the Province of Leinster in the south east of Ireland. In fact, the majority of McDonnells in Ireland are descendants of 14th/15th Scottish Catholic McDonald Galloglasses from Kintyre and Islay. Finally, some McDonnells in Ulster (and in Ireland in general) are desecendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McDonald Planters, though some of the McDonald Planters continued to use the Scottish spelling 'McDonald'. Furthermore, a few native and Galloglas Irish McDonnell families have adopted the Scottish spelling 'McDonald' at various times when they thought it was advantageous to have a Scottish surname. Lastly, there is the native Gaelic Irish O'Donnell family from County Donegal who are not related to any of the above McDonnell families.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 8th Aug 2007, 11:59am

Continuing with my last post, McConnell is a Scottish surname long associated with Ayrshire. Most of the McConnells in Ulster today are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Ayrshire. However, it seems likely that a few of the McConnells in Ulster are descended from Gallowglass and native Irish McDonnell families who adopted the McConnell surname in the years following the Plantation of Ulster when they thought it was advantageous to do so.

O'Connell, Connelly, Connolly and Donnelly are all native Irish surnames associated with Kerry, Galway, Monaghan and Tyrone respectively.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 9th Aug 2007, 06:59am

Hi Peter.

I have just noticed your post. There was a Patten/Patton Planter family in Donegal and they were either of southern Scottish or northern English extraction. However, there was also a native Irish Patten/Patton family from the Ballybofey area in the parish of Stranorlar in southeast Donegal. The original Irish Gaelic form of this surname was O'Peatain and it was Anglicised as Patten/Patton in the years following the Plantation of Ulster. 2 of the younger brothers of my greatgrandfather - Hugh Kelly - married 2 Patten/Patton sisters from Lettermore, near Drumkeen, in the Donegal parish of Convoy (Post #64). Lettermore is just a few miles to the north of the town of Ballybofey. I understand that there was also a small O'Peatain family in County Mayo who also Anglicised their surname as Patten/Patton.

Another Scottish Planter surname that was adopted by a native Irish family from the Ballybofey area in Donegal was Houston or Huston. The original Irish Gaelic form of this native Donegal family's surname was
Mac Giolla tSeachlainn or MacGiollatSeachlainn. One of my greatgreatgrandmothers was a Mary Bridget Houston/Huston from Magheravall, Convoy, Donegal. Lettermore and Magheravall are neighbouring villages near Drumkeen in the parish of Convoy, Donegal.

Paul

Posted by: Brendan 10th Aug 2007, 05:50pm

My surname is Tierney. In checking the Scottish records I knwo that my family arrived in Kilmarnock in the late 1840s. The census for 1851 tells me that they wre born in Ireland but gives nothing else. How can I go back further to find out where in Ireland. Are thererecords of the ships passengers or does Kilmarnock hold other records giving more detail of the birthplaces?

I've just found this site so apologies if my question is one to which everyone else already knows the answer.

Brendan

Posted by: Paul Kelly 15th Aug 2007, 08:30am

Hi Brendan.

Locating where exactly your Tierney ancestors came from in Ireland could be like searching for a needle in a haystack. The Tierney surname is found throughout the whole of the island of Ireland. Did you never get an indication from your parents or grandparents where you Tierney ancestors originated? I know these things are often never discussed in families and people become interested when the older generations are already dead.

Having said all that, most of the 19th century Irish immigrants to Scotland came from the 9 counties of Ulster. In Ulster, the Tierney surname is commonly found in Counties Tyrone, Cavan, Monaghan and Fermanagh. I think there is quite a strong likelihood that your Tierney ancestors came from County Tyrone or one of the neighbouring Ulster counties. You could try searching in the International Genealogical Index which is free.

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true

Your Irish ancestors may of course not be listed here. For example, Catholic births, marriages and deaths were usually not recorded in County Donegal before 1864. I am not sure if this was also the case in the neighbouring county of Tyrone.

You also have an Irish first name.

Hope you manage fo find something.

Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 21st Aug 2007, 09:55am

Someone was recently asking me about the surname Donnachie (sometimes spelt Donnachy) and whether it is a Scottish or Irish surname.

It turns out that Donnachie is in fact a Scottish surname originating in Perthshire. In the 15th century most, if not all, of the Donnachie clan adopted the surname Robertson, though I am not sure if all of the Scottish clan Robertson are descended from the Donnachie clan.

Donaghy is an unrelated native Irish surname originating in Counties Derry and Tyrone in west Ulster. Most of the 19th century Irish Donaghy immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded in the Scottish form of Donnachie.

Given that most of the native Scottish Donnachie family adopted the Robertson surname in the 15th century, I think it is fair to say that most, if not all, of the Donnachies in Scotland today are descendants of 19th century Catholic Irish Donaghy immigrants from Ulster.

Posted by: Mahegradon 22nd Aug 2007, 03:47am

Quite a few people over the years have asked me about my surname, CULLEN, so I had imagined it to be fairly rare in Scotland. That was until I worked in the filing room of a company in Glasgow and discovered that Cullens are 10 a penny.
I believe the name means 'Holly' in Irish and it originated in Kildare. My grandfather was a Dubliner.
I've recently read though, that the name can also mean 'A person from Cologne'.
Now this has left me wondering; Which side were we on at the Battle of Clontarf?

Posted by: Renee 28th Aug 2007, 07:29pm

Yes...I was wondering if you could tell me anything about my surname... Stith? Any help would be much appreciated!!

Posted by: Paul Kelly 13th Sep 2007, 01:00pm

I think Stith/Styth is an English surname originating in Lancashire. According to the International Genealogy Index there were once a few Stiths living in the Dublin area who were probably descendants of 17th century English Protestant Planters.

Posted by: BarC 17th Sep 2007, 02:49pm

My name is Cunningham though I understand it was originally Conaghan from Donegal.

Posted by: RonD 18th Sep 2007, 11:57am

I see a Stitt listed as a Scottish surname, from the Dumfries area.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 20th Sep 2007, 06:21pm

BarC,

Conaghan is a native Irish surname originating in west Ulster (Donegal, Derry, Tyrone). Cunningham is a Scottish surname originating in Ayrshire. Many Cunninghams settled in Ulster (particularly County Down in east Ulster) during the 17th century Scottish Protestant Plantations of Ulster. Moreover, some of the native Catholic Irish Conaghans in west Ulster adopted the Cunningham surname in the years following the Plantations when they thought it was advantageous to do so. In addition, I am sure some of the 19th century Irish Conaghan immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded incorrectly as Cunningham either deliberately (as they wanted to conceal their Irish roots) or accidently (as they were illiterate and Scottish officials would have naturally recorded the surname in a Scottish manner.)

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=History&Surname=Cunningham&UserID=

Breslin (O'Breaslain) is a native Irish surname originating in Donegal. O'Muirgheasain is also a native Irish surname originating in north east Donegal (Inishowen) and west Derry. In the years following the 17th century Plantations of Ulster some of the Breslins adopted the surname Brice/Bryce and all of the O'Muirgheasains adopted either the surname Morrison or the surname Bryson. Morrison, Bryson, Bryce and Brice are of course Scottish/English Planter surnames in Ulster.

Finally, Grant is a Scottish surname. Granny (O'Granny) is a native Irish surname originating in north east Donagal (Inishowen) and McGranaghan is a native Irish surname originating in east Donegal. The Granny and McGranaghan surnames are said to be related. Many Grants settled in Ulster, particularly east Ulster, during the 17th century Scottish Plantations of Ulster. In addition, during the 18th and 19th centuries, many of the native Irish in Donegal with the surnames Granny and McGranaghan adopted the surname Grant.

Posted by: RonD 21st Sep 2007, 12:05am

My oldest Dempsey ancestor was Terence Dempsey married to an Isobel Graham. I am not sure where in Ireland . I have to think that what you mentioned previously Paul that Graham was an anglicized version of an Irish name, the closest I can see is O' Gehan

Posted by: Paul Kelly 21st Sep 2007, 12:40pm

Hi Ron.

I think what you are saying is quite likely. I have just had a look at the surnames you mentioned. Graham is undoubtedly a Scottish surname and most of the Grahams in Ireland - particularly in Ulster - are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Lothian and Borders.

O'Greachain is a native Irish surname originating in the Irish Midlands (Westmeath, Offaly, Longford, Roscommon, etc) and is quite common all the way across the middle of Ireland from the east coast (Louth, Meath) to the west coast (Mayo, Galway). The surname is pronounced O'Grehan and the usual spelling of the surname is Grehan. However, it seems that some Grehans adopted the surname Graham in the 18th and 19th centuries.

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname


Gormley (O'Garmaile) is a native Irish surname originating in County Tyrone in Ulster. There is the suggestion that a few Gormleys also adopted the Scottish Planter surname Graham.

http://www.hoganstand.com/general/Identity/folk.htm


A few Grehans and Gormleys are also said to have adopted the English Planter surname Grimes.


Paul

Posted by: curstag 21st Sep 2007, 05:28pm

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 21st Sep 2007, 01:57 PM) *
Hi Ron.

I think what you are saying is quite likely. I have just had a look at the surnames you mentioned. Graham is undoubtedly a Scottish surname and most of the Grahams in Ireland - particularly in Ulster - are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Lothian and Borders.

O'Greachain is a native Irish surname originating in the Irish Midlands (Westmeath, Offaly, Longford, Roscommon, etc) and is quite common all the way across the middle of Ireland from the east coast (Louth, Meath) to the west coast (Mayo, Galway). The surname is pronounced O'Grehan and the usual spelling of the surname is Grehan. However, it seems that some Grehans adopted the surname Graham in the 18th and 19th centuries.

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname
Gormley (O'Garmaile) is a native Irish surname originating in County Tyrone in Ulster. There is the suggestion that a few Gormleys also adopted the Scottish Planter surname Graham.

http://www.hoganstand.com/general/Identity/folk.htm
A few Grehans and Gormleys are also said to have adopted the English Planter surname Grimes.
Paul


Hi Paul,

You seem to be very knowledgable on Irish family history. Can you help with the following:

' Hi, does anyone have any information on rare two Irish names from my family? I recently have been doing my family tree and found long lost relatives with the name of Lyden. We have traced the family as far back as a James Lyden, married to an Agnes Menamin. Their son William Lyden was born in 1837 and married a Hannah (sometimes referred to as Joanna) Payne and they settled in Clydebank after he left the Royal Artillery.

Also, family folklore seems to have arisen quite independently from various branches in the States, England, Scotland and Ireland that the Lydens were not originally Irish, but settled there after being mercenaries who fought either for William of Orange or escaped from Scotland after being on the wrong side in the Jacobite rebellion. Two very different sides of the religious divide!

Rumour has it that they were possibly Dutch. However, I have found the Gaelic name O'loideain. Can anyone shed light on the rumour? One family website for the Liddens has the same story and it says that they became, 'more Irish than the Irish.' I'm confused!!!! Did they 'gaelisize' or were they Irish? There are aslo Lydens in Holland with variant spellings and many in Scandinavia with the same spelling. Which line should I follow?

There is also the name Timpany in the family tree. Can anyone give any background on that name. I believe it originated in Northern Ireland.

Many thanks '

Posted by: Paul Kelly 22nd Sep 2007, 12:11pm

'Mac Gille Iosa' is a Scottish Gaelic surname meaning 'the son of the follower of Jesus' and the name arose independently in various parts of Scotland. In some parts of Scotland the surname was Anglicised as Gillis or Gillies while in other parts of Scotland it was Anglicised as McLeish.

'Mac Giolla Iosa' is an unrelated Irish Gaelic surname also meaning 'the son of the devotee of Jesus' and the name originated in County Derry in Ulster. The surname was Anglicised as McAleese in north Ulster (Antrim/Derry) and as Gilleece or Gilleese in southwest Ulster (Fermanagh/Tyrone).

There is evidence that there has been some intermingling of the Irish McAleese and Scottish McLeish surnames and of the Irish Gilleece and Scottish Gillies surnames.

During the 17th century Scottish Protestant Plantations of Ulster, some people with the surnames McLeish and Gillis settled in Ulster. While the Scottish surnames of Gillis and McLeish can be found in Ulster as a result of the Plantations, there is evidence that a few of the McLeish and Gillies Planters adopted the Irish spellings of McAleese and Gilleese. There is even some evidence that a few of the native Irish Gilleeces in Ulster adopted the Scottish spelling of Gillis in certain villages. For the same person in Ulster, you might find the Scottish spelling of Gillis or McLeish on one document (eg a birth certificate) and then the Irish spelling of Gilleese or McAleese on another document (eg a census return)

Moreover, there is evidence that some of the illiterate 19th century Catholic Irish McAleese and Gilleece immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded by officials in the Scottish forms of McLeish and Gillies.

The current Irish President is of course Belfast born Mary McAleese.

Posted by: Deb Marshall 24th Sep 2007, 03:23am

Hi, Paul. I've learned much from reading the entries about Irish surnames in Scotland. I've just picked up researching again after setting it aside for awhile. My families on both sides didn't keep information about their ancestors, so it has been very difficult to do research with so little information. I've discovered a lot just from reading these posts. Thanks to all for their input.

I've two major surnames that I'm researching: McCluskey and McCallum, both of which I've seen listed in these posts. My aunt has managed to go back to the point of the McCluskey family departing Scotland and coming to America, but no information as to when our ancestors left Ireland for Scotland. Does anyone know anything at all about these two surnames as far as their occupations and standard of living in Ireland, and what they might have done once in Scotland?

I've been reading about the origin of the McCluskey surname in Ireland and was quite surprised to find out it was a sub-sept of O'Cahan clan. I've discovered some very interesting details about this surname and am anxious to fill in the gaps between the 12th century and 19th century McCluskeys.

We are hoping to visit Britain again next summer, and would love to have something tangible to take with me to Ireland and Scotland that would open some doors for me.

Many thanks to anyone who knows something of these surnames.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 24th Sep 2007, 05:55pm

Continuing with my last post about religious surnames, Gilchrist can be a Scottish or an Irish surname. The Irish surname originates in the western province of Connacht (around County Leitrim). While some of the Gilchrists in Ulster are probably connected to the native Irish family from north Connacht, it seems that most of the Gilchrists in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters.

Gilmartin or Kilmartin is a native Irish surname originating in north Connacht (Sligo, Leitrim) and southwest Ulster (Fermanagh, Tyrone). In Ulster, the Gilmartin surname is usually abbreviated to Martin. However, some of the Martins in Ulster, particularly east Ulster, are descendants of 17th century Scottish/English Martin Planters.

Gilmore is a native Irish surname originating in Connacht and Ulster. Gilmour is an unrelated Scottish surname. It seems that many of the Gilmores in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Gilmour Planters from Galloway and south Ayrshire.

Fitzpatrick is a native Irish surname commonly found throughout Ireland. Kilpatrick is a Scottish surname. The Fitzpatrick surname is occasionally recorded as Kilpatrick, especially in Ulster. However, the majority of Kilpatricks in Ulster seem to be descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Dumfries and Galloway. Kirkpatrick is also quite a common Scottish Planter surname in Ulster.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 25th Sep 2007, 10:02am

'Mac Giolla Bhrighde' is an Irish Gaelic surname meaning 'the son of the devotee of St Bridget'. The surname originated in County Donegal, west Ulster. A branch of the Donegal family migrated to County Down, east Ulster, in early times. In Ulster the surname has been Anglicised as McBride. In north Connacht the surname has been Anglicised as Kilbride or Gilbride.

'Mac Gille Brighde' is a Scottish Gaelic surname also meaning 'the son of the servant of St Bridget'. The surname is said to have originated on the Isles of Arran and Bute in what was once southern Argyll. The surname has also been Anglicised as McBride and occasionally Kilbride.

There has been a lot of intermingling of the Irish and Scottish McBride surnames. Some Scottish Protestant McBrides from Arran and North Ayrshire settled in east Ulster during the 17th century Scottish Plantations of Ulster. In addition, many Catholic Irish McBrides from Ulster (particularly County Donegal) settled in the Glasgow area in the 19th century.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 25th Sep 2007, 02:12pm

Deb,

O'Cathain is a common Irish Gaelic surname which arose independently in more than one part of Ireland. In Ulster the surname has been Anglicised as O'Kane (O'Cahan) or Kane. In the south of Ireland the surname has been Anglicised as Keane. The O'Kane family of Ulster originated in County Derry and the Kane surname is now commonly found in Derry and the neighbouring counties of Antrim, Donegal and Tyrone. Like so many other families with origins in the northwest of Ireland, the O'Kanes are said to be direct descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages. The Kanes were a powerful family in County Derrry in pre-Plantation times. The McCluskey or McCloskey family (MacBhloscaidh in Gaelic) also originated in County Derry and they are said to be related to the O'Kanes. The McCluskey surname is commonly found in Derry, Antrim, Donegal and Tyrone. Kane and McCluskey are now common surnames in the Glasgow area as a result of 19th century Irish immigration into Scotland.

I briefly discussed the McCallum surname in post #163 of this topic. McCallum is a Scottish surname originating in Argyll. I think McCallum country is traditionally the area to the west of Loch Awe and south of Loch Avich. When I was at secondary school in the mid 80s I remember going a school trip to Barmaddy, near Dalavich, in Argyll. The area was very beautiful and unspoilt and I remember walking around Loch Avich on a glorious summer's day.

McCollum or McColm is a native Irish surname originating in north Ulster (Antrim, Derry). It is speculated that some of these native Irish McCollums might in fact be descendants of 14th/15th century Scottish Catholic McCallum Galloglasses from Argyll (pre-Reformation). It is a possibility. No one really knows for sure. However, during the 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster (post-Reformation), Protestant McCallum Planters from Argyll did settle in Ulster and they adopted the Irish surname McCollum. In fact, it seems that a majority of the McCollums in Ulster today are of McCallum Planter extraction. While some McCallums settled in Ulster in the 17th century, many others remained in Argyll. In the 18th century some of these Argyll McCallums copied their clan chief and changed their surname to Malcolm for aesthetic reasons. (It should be noted that not all people with the surname Malcolm are related to the McCallums.) I am not sure how many ordinary McCallums followed their chief's example and changed their surname to Malcolm. In the 19th century, many Irish McCollums (of both native Catholic and Scottish Protestant Planter extraction) migrated from Ulster to the Glasgow area and they adopted the Scottish surname McCallum. The fact that some of the Argyll McCallums changed their surname to Malcolm in the 18th century makes me wonder what percentage of the McCallums in the Glasgow area today are in fact descendants of 19th century McCollum immigrants from Ulster. Many of these Irish McCollum immigrants were of course descendants of 17th century Scottish McCallum Planters so you could say that they were just returning home to Scotland.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 28th Sep 2007, 03:37pm

I mentioned the McGill surname in an earlier post but I would like to say a bit more about the McGill and Gill surnames. The McGill surname arose independently in both Scotland and Ireland. In Scotland the surname originated in Galloway and most of the McGills in east Ulster (Antrim, Down, Armagh) are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Galloway and Ayrshire. The McGill surname is often spelt Magill in east Ulster. In contrast, in west Ulster (Donegal, Tyrone), the McGills are predominantly a native Irish family and there are McGills in the Glasgow area today who are descendants of 19th century Irish immigrants from this native west Ulster family.

Gill can be an Irish, Scottish or even English surname. While the Gills in east Ulster (Antrim/Down) are mainly descendants of 17th century Scottish Planters, most of the Gills in Ireland are of native Irish stock and the surname is particularly common in the Province of Connacht in the west of Ireland (Mayo, Galway, Roscommon) and in west Ulster (Donegal).

I have also briefly discussed the McCartney surname before though not under this topic. McCartney is a Scottish surname and most of the McCartneys in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Ayrshire, Galloway and Dumfries. However, McCartan or McCarton is a native Irish surname originating in County Down in east Ulster. There is evidence that a few of the native east Ulster McCartans adopted the Scottish surname McCartney when they thought it was advantageous to do so. In addition, there is evidence that some of the 19th century Irish McCartan immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded incorrectly as McCartney. There is also the suggestion that some members of the relatively rare native Irish Mulhartagh and McCaugherty families of west Ulster (Tyrone, Derry, Fermanagh, Donegal) adopted the McCartney surname in the years following the Plantations.

Finally, Griffin can be an Irish, Welsh or even English surname. While most of the Griffins in Ireland are of native Irish stock, it is likely that a few of the Griffins in eastern Ireland are descendants of 17th century English/Welsh Planters.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 30th Sep 2007, 02:13pm

Carr is an English surname and Kerr is a Scottish surname. Carr and Kerr are very common surnames in Ulster. Most of the Carrs in Ulster are native Irish who adopted Carr as the Anglicised version of their Gaelic surnames in the years following the Plantations. For example, the Mac Giolla Chathair surname in County Donegal and the O'Cairre surname in County Armagh were both Anglicised as Carr. In contrast, most of the Kerrs in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters. However some of the native Irish Carrs in Ulster changed their surnames to Kerr when they thought it was advantageous to do so. In addition, there is evidence that some of the 19th century native Irish Carr immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded in the Scottish form of Kerr.

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=History&Surname=Kerr&UserID=

Meehan is an Irish surname. McMeechan/McMechan/McMeekin and Meechan/Mechan are Scottish surnames. McMeechan Planters from Galloway and Ayrshire settled in Ulster during the 17th century Scottish Protestant Plantations and possibly a few Meechan Planters too. Moreover, many of the 19th century Catholic Irish Meehan immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded in the Scottish form of Meechan. In fact, most of the people in Scotland today with the surname Meechan are of Irish Meehan ancestry

Finally, McGeehan is an Irish surname and McGeechan/McGeachan is a rare Scottish surname. Some of the 19th century Irish McGeehan immigrants (from mainly Donegal) to Scotland had their surnames recorded in the Scottish form of McGeechan.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 1st Oct 2007, 08:09am

In post #183, I said that most of the Scottish clan Donnachie/Connachie adopted the Robertson surname in the 15th century. This was undoubtedly the case. However a few did not and continued to use the Connachie or McConnachie surname, but NOT the Donnachie or McDonnachie surname. The Donnachie/McDonnachie surname almost certainly died out in Scotland, and was reintroduced into Scotland by 19th century Catholic Irish Donaghy immigrants. As I said in post #183, Donaghy is un unrelated native Irish surname originating in west Ulster (Derry/Tyrone) and most of the 19th century Catholic Irish Donaghy immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded in the Scottish form of Donnachie or Donachie. During the 17th century Scottish Protestant Plantations of Ulster many Robertsons and some McConnachies/Connachies settled in Ulster. The Scottish McConachie/McConnachie/Conachie/Connachie Planters usually spelt their surname McConaghy/McConnaghy/Conaghy/Connaghy or even McConkey/Conkey in Ulster. The Scottish Planter Conaghy surname in Ulster should of course not be confused with the native Irish Conaghan surname. In post #189, I commented that some of the 19th century Catholic Irish Conaghan immigrants to Scotland had their surname recorded in the Scottish form of Cunningam. In fact, it seems that some of them had their surname recorded as Conachan or Connachan. All very confusing! McDonagh and Donohoe are also native Irish surnames.

Moore is a common surname in Ireland. While some Irish Moores are of native Irish O'More stock, others are descendants of 17th century English Moore and Scottish Muir Planters.

In post #117, I commented that most of the 19th century Irish Kearns and Kearney immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded in the Scottish forms of Cairns and Cairney. Similarly, the Irish surnames of Curran and Kerin (or Kerins) were sometimes recorded as Corran and Corrins in Scotland.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 2nd Oct 2007, 11:35am

Up to now I haven't really said much about my own surname Kelly. It is estimated that there are at least half a million people in the world today who bear the surname. The surname originated predominantly in Ireland and to a lesser extent in Scotland, England and the Isle of Man. The Kellys of Irish origins are by far the most numerous.

The Kelly surname did not spring from a single source but arose independently in many different parts of Ireland. There are said to be at least 10 different Kelly families in Ireland and unsurprisingly Kelly is the 2nd most common surname in the country after Murphy. The original Irish Gaelic form of the surname is O'Ceallaigh (O'Kelly) which means either 'the grandson of the bright-haired one' or 'the grandson of the quarrelsome/warlike one'. The largest Kelly family in Ireland are the Kellys from Galway/Roscommon in the western Province of Connacht. There are also large Kelly families originating in County Sligo (Connacht), County Cork (Munster) and County Laois (Leinster). There are said to be 2 large Kelly families originating in Ulster: the Kellys of Derry in west Ulster and the Kellys of Antrim/Down in east Ulster. Like so many other families with origins in the north west of Ireland, the Derry Kellys are said to be direct descendants of the legendary Niall of the Nine Hostages. I think I belong to this Kelly family. The Derry Kellys originated in Loughinsholin, County Derry and they are said to have suffered greatly during the 17th century Plantations of Ulster. Many of the them migrated southwards into County Tyrone and westwards into east Donegal where the name is now very common. My Kelly ancestors come from Stranorlar in southeast Donegal next to County Tyrone.

There are said to be 2 or possibly 3 separate origins for the Kelly surname in Scotland. There is the small Kelly (originally Kellie) family from Angus in the east of Scotland and the Kelly (originally McKelly or McKellie) family from Galloway in the extreme south west of Scotland. I was reading on one webite that the Kellys of Galloway are possibly related to the McCulloch family of Galloway (see post #146). Another website dismisses this idea and says the Galloway Kellys and the Galloway McCullochs are unrelated families. Despite this, there is evidence that some of the Galloway Kellys adopted the McCulloch surname at various times. I have even read that there was once a small McKelly family in Argyll which ultimately disappeared as it was absorbed by the large and powerful McDonald clan.

During the 17th century Scottish Plantations of Ulster, Protestant Kellys from Galloway settled in east Ulster. The Kellys in east Ulster (Antrim/Down) today are of mixed origins. While the majority are native Catholic Irish, a significant minority are Protestant descendants of Galloway Planters. In posts #158 and #159 I was discussing the American term 'Scots-Irish' which is used to refer to Protestants from the north of Ireland who are largely descendants of 17th century Scottish Planters. It is said that some of the 18th and early 19th century Protestant Scots-Irish Kelly immigrants to north America spelled their surname 'Kelley' in order to differentiate themselves from the large numbers of Catholic Irish Kelly immigrants who arrived in America in the wake of the mid 19th century Irish Potato Famine.

There is also a Kelly (also originally McKelly) family originating in the Isle of Man and a small English Kelly (originally Celli) family from the Devon/Cornwall border in the south west of England. Celli means 'man of the woods' in the ancient Cornish language.

Despite all the different origins of the Kelly surname, I am sure the vast majority of Kellys in the world today, wherever they are found, are descendants of one of the native Gaelic Irish families.

Posted by: Michael Styth 7th Oct 2007, 03:44pm

QUOTE (Renee @ 28th Aug 2007, 07:46 PM) *
Yes...I was wondering if you could tell me anything about my surname... Stith? Any help would be much appreciated!!

The name Stith is usually a miss spelling of the name Styth - I have traced my family tree back to the early 1600's - maybe we are related ? email me - michael.styth@sky.com

Posted by: Paul Kelly 17th Oct 2007, 01:00pm

Although Morgan is a famous Welsh surname, Morgan can also be a Scottish surname. While some of the Morgans in Ireland are descendants of 17th century Welsh and Scottish Protestant Planters, it seems that many of the Morgans in Ireland are actually native Irish - O'Muireagain - who Anglicised their Gaelic surnames as Morgan in the years following the Plantations.

McMorrow - MacMuireadhaigh - is an Irish surname originating in north Connacht (County Leitrim). Morrow is a Scottish/English Planter surname commonly found throughout Ulster. However, it seems that a few of the Morrows in Ulster (especially County Fermanagh next to County Leitrim) are actually native Irish McMorrows who dropped the 'Mc' prefix in the years following the Plantations. Similarly, Murray is a common Scottish Planter surname in Ulster. However, it seems that some of the Murrays in west Ulster (Donegal, Derry, Tyrone) are native Irish - O'Muireadhaigh - who adopted Murray as the Anglicised version of their Gaelic surnames in the years following the Plantations. The Murray surname is also common in the south of Ireland where most bearers of the name are said to be of native Irish extraction. McMurray is also quite a common surname in Ulster where most bearers of the name are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Galloway, though a few might be connected to the native Gaelic Irish McMorrows of Leitrim/Fermanagh.

Leonard is an English surname and while a few of the Leonards in Ireland are probably descendants of 17th century English Planters, the vast majority of Leonards in Ireland are native Irish (originally Lennon, Linnane/Linneen, Lunny/Lunney) who adopted the Leonard surname in the years following the Plantations.

Lennon is a native Irish surname. However McLennan is a Scottish surname and the McLennons in Ulster appear to be descendants of 17th century Scottish McLennan Planters. However McGlennon/McGleenan and McLernon/McLernan are considered to be native Irish surnames originating in east Ulster. It is possible that there has been some intermingling of the similar sounding McLennon/McLennan, McGlennon/McGleenan and McLernon/McLernan surnames in Ulster over the past few centuries.

Finally McClelland is a common surname in Ulster. Most, if not all, of the bearers of this surname in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McLellan Planters from Galloway.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 30th Oct 2007, 04:48am

Downey, Curry and Corry are native Irish surnames. Downie, Currie and Corrie are unrelated Scottish surnames. There has cerainly been some intermingling of these very similar sounding Irish and Scottish surnames. For example, some of the 19th century Irish Downey, Curry and Corry immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded in the Scottish forms of Downie, Currie and Corrie. Moreover, some of the 17th century Scottish Protestant Downie, Currie and Corrie Planters in Ulster adopted the Irish spellings of Downey, Curry and Corry.

Finally, the Irish surname of Corr is sometimes related to the Corry surname, in other cases to the Carr surname (see post #199).

Posted by: Paul Kelly 30th Oct 2007, 07:25am

Continuing with my last post, McCorry (MacGothraidh) is a native Irish surname originating in Ulster. McCurry/McCurrie (MacMhuirich) is a Scottish surname originating in Argyll. There has been some intermingling of these 2 similar sounding surnames due the 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster and 19th century Irish immigration into Scotland.

In addition, the Irish surnames of McGuire/Maguire (MagUidir) and McCorry (MacGothraidh) are sometimes confused with the Scottish surname McQuarrie (MacGuaire/MacGuadhre)

Posted by: RonD 30th Oct 2007, 07:42am

Hi Paul: It's certainly a tough go trying to identify the origins of Iriish names when some of the native Irish tried to Anglicize or "Scottocize" their surnames or the British clerk who wouldn't or couldn't differentiate the nuances of Gaelic speech to get the correct surnames documented.

Posted by: Kate McM 31st Oct 2007, 10:10pm

Can anyone tell me the origins of the name Mellon?
I know they are in tyrone and derry any help would be helpfull.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 1st Nov 2007, 08:57am

Hi Kate.

The O'Meallain surname originated near Dungannon in south east County Tyrone and means attractive or pleasant. O'Meallain has been Anglicised as Mellon in north Tyrone and County Derry and as Mallon in south Tyrone and County Armagh. I am just after reading that the Mellons were the hereditary keepers of the Bell of St Patrick, though I remember reading elsewhere that the Mulholland (O'Maolchallann) family of County Derry were the hereditary keepers of the Bell of St Patrick. It seems that both families shared this privilege.

Paul

http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/irish/blas/education/beginnersblas/sloinntemeascan.shtml

http://www.greenlough.com/history/mulhollands.asp

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname

Posted by: Paul Kelly 1st Nov 2007, 12:10pm

Continuing with my last post, O'Maolain (meaning bald or tonsured) is another surname from Counties Derry and Tyrone and this surname has been Anglicised as Mullan or Mullen. The Mullen surname is much more numerous than the Mellon surname and it has been suggested that some of the Mellon families in Derry/Tyrone may have had their surnames recorded as Mullen over the years.

The O'Maolain surname sometimes appeared in the form MacMaolain (especially in Derry) and this surname has been Anglicised as McMullan or McMullen. McMullen is a very common surname in Counties Derry, Tyrone, Antrim and Down, though it seems that many of the McMullens in east Ulster (Antrim and Down) are actually descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McMillan (Mac Ghille Mhaoil) Planters from Galloway, Dumfries and Ayrshire. (See post #160)

Finally, it seems likely that some of the illiterate 19th century Irish McMullen immigrants to Scotland would have had their surnames recorded incorrectly as the Scottish surname McMillan.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 4th Nov 2007, 09:37am

Reynolds is generally regarded as an English surname and it is likely that some of the Reynolds in the east of Ireland are of English Planter extraction. However, it seems that most people in Ireland with the surname Reynolds are of native Irish Gaelic stock. The MacRaghnaill surname was usually Anglicised as Reynolds and this surname is very common in north Connacht (especially Leitrim), south Ulster (Cavan) and the Irish Midlands (Longford, Westmeath).

On a similar note, Rice is generally regarded as a Welsh surname and bearers of this surname in the deep south of Ireland (Munster and south Leinster) are said to be of Welsh ancestry. However, in Ireland, the Rice surname is most commonly found in south east Ulster (Armagh, Down) and neighbouring north Leinster (Louth). Here, bearers of the surname are said to be of native Gaelic Irish extraction. The O'Maolchraoibhe (pronounced O'Mulcreevy) surname of south east Ulster was Anglicised as Rice in the years following the Plantations and the Rice surname is now very common in this area. Incidentally, the O'Maolchraoibhe surname was Anglicised as Mulgrew in neighbouring County Tyrone.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 4th Nov 2007, 01:24pm

McGinley and McKinley are common surnames in Ulster, though they are of different origins. McGinley is a native Irish surname originating in County Donegal. The original Irish Gaelic form of the surname is Mac Fhionnghaile meaning 'son of the fair valorous one'. McKinlay is a Scottish surname originating in Lennox county (Dunbartonshire and west Stirlingshire). The original Scottish Gaelic form of this surname is Mac Fhionnlaoich or Mac Fhionnlaigh, meaning 'son of the fair warrior'. McKinlay is a common surname in east Ulster, particularly County Antrim, as a result of the 17th century Scottish Protestant Plantations. McKinlay is usually spelt McKinley in Ulster. I am sure there must have been some intermingling of the very similar sounding McGinley and McKinley surnames in Ulster.

Fionn is the Old Irish Gaelic word for the colour white. Modern Irish and Scottish Gaelic are both derived from Old Irish. The girls name Fiona meaning 'fair' or 'blond' was invented in the late 19th century by Paisley born author William Sharp who wote under the pseudonym Fiona MacLeod. My daughter is called Fiona, despite the fact she has black hair like my wife. I am the fair one. In contrast, the boys name Fionn or Finn is a very old Irish name meaning 'fair' or 'blond'. I am sure many of you have heard of the mythical Irish warrior Finn McCool (Fionn Mac Cumhaill). Incidentally, the McCool surname is still found in County Donegal today, though the Irish Gaelic form of this Donegal surname is Mac Giolla Chomhghaill. This surname is also sometimes Anglicised as Coyle.

Finally, the River Finn - the White River - is a major river in County Donegal.

Posted by: Proinsias Mag Fhionnaile 5th Nov 2007, 02:21pm

Dear Sir,
Please note that the correct Irish Gaelic form for McGinley is Mag Fhionnghaile (with a modern Irish Gaelic form of Mag Fhionnaile). There are NO recorded examples of McKinlay/McKinley being changed to McGinley (an occasional McGinley did become McKinlay/McKinley however).

The Protestant settlers in Ireland were the 'master race' while the native Irish were the subdued ones. Why would a member of the priveleged class change their name to that of the serfs. It did not happen.

In America you will not find ANY Anglo Smith (priveleged class again) changing to Smidt, no Anglo Cort/Court changing to Cortez, no Anglo Peters changing to Pedro, no Scots Menteath changing to Mendez. BUT.....you do find Smidt, Cortez, Pedro and Mendez changing to a more 'civilised' Anglo surname.

Sorry to be so blunt, but those are the facts. Some McGinleys did change to McKinlay/McKinley to hide their poor Catholic Irish background. But that was still very rare. I have NEVER, in 25 years of research noted a Protestant changing his name to McGinley, the poorer class. By the way the Scottish Mac Fhionnlaoich means 'son of the fair headed hero'.

Is mise le meas
An Staire Oifigiúil na Clann

Proinsias Mag Fhionnaile

Posted by: Paul Kelly 6th Nov 2007, 07:21am

Hi Proinsias,

I have to strongly disagree with you when you say that none of the Scottish Protestant Planters in Ulster adopted Irish spellings of their surnames. I can refer you to post #146 of this topic. It has been well documented by researchers of the native Irish McCullough/McCullagh surname of Ulster that most of the 17th century Scottish Protestant McCulloch Planters (from mainly Galloway) adopted the Irish spelling of McCullough. Similarly most of the 17th century Scottish Protestant McLachlan Planters in Ulster adopted the native Irish McLaughlin surname. While a small minority of McLaughlins in Ulster today are of Scottish Protestant McLachlan extraction (most are clealy of native Irish stock), it seems that many of McCulloughs in Ulster today are actually of Scottish Protestant McCulloch extraction.

I can also refer you to post #209. McMullen is a native Irish surname originating in Derry and while most of the McMullens in west Ulster (Derry, Tyrone, Donegal) are of native Irish extraction, most of the McMullens in east Ulster (Antrim, Down) are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McMillan Planters from Galloway, Dumfries and Ayrshire.

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname Enter McMullen

I can also refer you to post #204 and I could give you other examples.

Incidentally, I never actually specified how the intermingling of the McGinley and McKinley surnames occured in Ulster. I just said it probably happened.

As for the spellings and meanings, you are not being blunt. You are just splitting hairs. What is the difference between 'a fair haired warrior' and 'a fair headed hero'. The Gaelic word 'laoich' or 'laoch' means 'warrior' or 'hero'.

The Irish Gaelic form of the McGinley surname is Mac Fhionnghaile or Mag Fhionnghaile or Mac/Mag Fhionngaile or Mag Fhionnaile. While I am sure you are going to say that Mag Fhionnaile is the standard modern Irish Gaelic spelling of the McGinley surname, that does not make the alternative spellings invalid. I have been researching Irish and Scottish surnames as a hobby for some time now and many Gaelic surnames have variant spellings.

Try doing a GOOGLE search for 'Mac Fhionnghaile McGinley'. There are McGinleys in Ireland today who use this spelling

Regards,

Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 15th Nov 2007, 07:40am

3 rare Irish surnames which are sometimes found in the Glasgow area today have recently come to my attention. These are the Donegal surnames of Frize and Tourish (sometimes spelt Toorish) and the Fermanagh/Tyrone surname of Doorish.

Posted by: annepat 15th Nov 2007, 07:49am

Two surnames of my ancestors from Ireland are Reynolds and Skelton

Posted by: Paul Kelly 15th Nov 2007, 10:39am

Hi annepat.

I discussed the Reynolds surname just last week (see post #210).
I had never heard of the Skelton surname before but I have just done a little research on it. It seems the Skeltons were an English family (from Cumbria/Cumberland) who settled in the east of Ireland in the early 1400s (pre-Plantation AND pre-Reformation times). The family seems to have Gaelicized and intermarried with native Irish families. The Skeltons even adopted the Irish Gaelic form of 'de Scealtun'.

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname

http://www.hoganstand.com/general/Identity/folk.htm

I have also had a look through the International Genealogy Index and the surname is common in the east of Ireland, particularly east Ulster, though I suspect some of these Skeltons could be descendants of 17th century Protestant Skelton/Skeldon Planters from the north of England and the south of Scotland.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 29th Nov 2007, 08:00am

As I mentioned in post #147 of this topic, Mac Giolla Bhui or Mac Giolla Bhuidhe meaning 'the son of the yellow/golden haired youth/boy' is a native Irish surname originating in west Ulster (Donegal, Derry). Bui or Buidhe (pronounced boy) is the Irish Gaelic word for the colour yellow. The Mac Giolla Bhui surname was Anglicised as either McKelvey (McKelvy), McElwee (McIlwee), McGilloway (Gilloway) or McAvoy.

McGilloway is a rare Irish surname and is found only in County Donegal. It seems that the 19th century Irish McGilloway/Gilloway immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded incorrectly in the Scottish form of Galloway. Incidentally Galloway (sometimes abbreviated to Galway) is quite a common surname in east Ulster (Antrim, Down) and these east Ulster Galloways and Galways are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Galloway in the extreme south west Scotland. There is also an unrelated Galway (de Gaillimhe) surname in the south of Ireland which is said to be of Norman origins.

While McAvoy is occasionally the Anglicised version of the Mac Giolla Bhui surname of west Ulster, the native east Ulster (Antrim, Down, Armagh) surname Mac an Bheatha was also Anglicised as McAvoy or McVeigh (McVey). Beatha is the Irish word for life. In addition, the Mac Fhiodhbhui or Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe surname (meaning 'the son of the man of the woods') which originated in the south east of Ireland - Leinster province - was usually Anglicised as McEvoy or occasionally McAvoy. So if you have the surname McAvoy, it is most likely that you are a Mac an Bheatha, though you could possibly be a Mac Giolla Bhuidhe or a MacFhiodhbhuidhe.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 1st Dec 2007, 11:24am

McDermot or McDermott is a common Irish surname whereas McDiarmid or MacDiarmid is a rare Scottish surname. These 2 surnames are completely unrelated and should not be confused with one another. The original Irish Gaelic form of the McDermott surname is Mac Diarmada (MacDiarmada) or Mac Diarmaid (MacDiarmaid) and this surname originated in the west of Ireland where it is still commonly found - in Connacht (Sligo, Leitrim, Mayo, Roscommon and Galway) and in west Ulster (Donegal, Derry, Tyrone and Fermanagh).
The original Scottish Gaelic form of the McDiarmid surname is Mac Dhiarmaid (MacDhiarmaid) and this relatively rare Scottish surname originated in Perthshire. Despite the fact that the McDermott and McDiarmid surnames arose independently in Ireland and Scotland respectively, these 2 surnames are said to have the same meaning: 'son of Diarmid (Dermot)' ie 'son of the unenvious one'. This is not surprising given the common origin of Irish and Scottish Gaelic.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 7th Dec 2007, 09:24am

The Gaelic surname Mac an tSagairt (meaning 'the son of the priest') arose independently in Ireland and Scotland. Celibacy was obviously not always practised by priests in medieval Ireland and Scotland. The native Irish version of the surname originated in Ulster where it was Anglicised as McEntaggart or McIntaggart (or occasionally McTaggart or Taggart). The Scottish version of the surname originated in Wester Ross in the north west Highlands of Scotland - though there also seem to be separate branches in southern Argyll (Kintyre and Islay) and Galloway - and the surname was Anglicised as Taggart (or occasionally McTaggart or McIntaggart) in Scotland. Today, the MacantSagairt surname is common in Ulster where it is of mixed origins. Some are of native Irish extraction (especially those who use the McEntaggart/McIntaggart surname and some of the McTaggarts), whereas the others are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters (especialy those who use the Taggart surname and some of the McTaggarts).

Similarly, the Gaelic surname Mac an tSaoir (meaning 'the son of the craftsman') arose independently in Scotland and Ireland. The native Irish version of the surname originated in Ulster where it was usually Anglicised as McAteer. The Scottish version of the surname originated near Loch Etive in Lorn/Lorne, northern Argyll and the surname was Anglicised as McIntyre in Scotland. (It is possible that SOME of the native Irish MacantSaoirs are actually descendants of 14th/15th century Scottish Catholic MacantSaoir Gallowglass settlers from Argyll.) During the 17th century Plantations, many Scottish Protestant MacantSaoirs (McIntyres) settled in Ulster. As a result, the McAteer and McIntyre surnames are both common in Ulster and while it is generally considered that the McAteers are of native Irish stock and the McIntyres of Scottish Planter extraction this is by no means a hard and fast rule. There has been a lot of intermingling of the McAteer and McIntyre surnames in Ulster, which is not surprising given their common Gaelic - Mac an tSaoir - root. (see post #163 of this topic and post #81 of the topic 'Are The Scots Really Irish?' which discusses Galloglass.)

Mac Giolla Ruaidh is a native Irish surname - meaning son of the red haired youth - originating in County Fermanagh in south west Ulster. This surname was Anglicised as McElroy or Kilroy or Gilroy and these surnames are common in west Ulster (Tyrone, Fermanagh) and north Connacht (Leitrim, Sligo, Mayo). Mac Gille Ruadh is an unrelated Scottish surname (also meaning the son of the red haired youth) originating in Galloway. This surname was Anglicised as McIlroy. Scottish Protestant McIlroys from Galloway and Ayrshire settled in east Ulster (Antrim, Down) during the 17th century Plantations. There has been some intermingling of the native Irish McElroy and the Scottish Planter McIlroy surnames in Ulster. (see post #57)

Mac Riada is a native Irish surname originating in west Ulster (Donegal) and probably means 'the son of the trained or expert one'. This surname was Anglicised as McCready. Mac Rididh is a Scottish surname originating in Galloway (meaning 'son of Redmond or Red Mount') which was also Anglicised as McCready. During the 17th century Plantations, Scottish Protestant McCreadys from Ayrshire and Galloway settled in east Ulster (Antrim, Down). (see post #55)

As I mentioned in post #217, Mac Giolla Bhui/Bhuidhe is a native Irish surname originating in west Ulster (Donegal, Derry) meaning 'the son of the golden/yellow haired youth'. This surname was sometimes Anglicised as McKelvey. Mac Shealbhaigh is a Scottish surname originating in Galloway (meaning 'the son of the possessive or grasping one') which was also Anglicised as McKelvey. Again, during the 17th century Plantations, Scottish Protestant McKelveys from Galloway and south Ayrshire settled in east Ulster.

Finally Irish immigrants - both Catholic and Protestant - with the surnames Taggart, McIntyre, McIlroy, McCready and McKelvey came to Scotland from Ulster in the 19th century.

Posted by: RonD 7th Dec 2007, 01:21pm

Good reading as always Paul. I would suggest that reason for such names as MacTaggart (so of the priest) and Mac Nab (son of the abbot) was due the old Celtic church's clergy not adhering to celibacy in the way the Church of Rome tried to aspire. One more reason along with ritualistic differences and tonsure that Church of Rome felt compelled to have its sway over the Celtic church. It began in Scotland as early the reign of Canmore who followed the southern ways of his Saxon wife Margaret. In Ireland I suppose it came along with the encroaching English Pale in pre Reformation days prior to the 16th centuriy.

Posted by: Janette Smith 10th Dec 2007, 08:55pm

Hi

I have McFadyen's and McCallum's (McCallian) born in Ireland 1798 - 1810, originally thought to be from Argyll. When back in Scotland abt 1830-40s brothers and sisters of the same family appear as McFadyen and/or McFadden. They are McFaden - The only family in Ayrshire 1851 at the time with that spelling - that I could find anyway. And in Glasgow abt 1851 they appear McFayden - perhaps indicating the Scots Gaelic pronunciation.

Janette

Posted by: Paul Kelly 11th Dec 2007, 09:35am

Yes Ron. The common Scottish surname of McNab originated in Perthshire and the original Scottish Gaelic form of the surname was Mac an Aba. Some Irish genealogists seem to think that there might also have been a rare native Irish McNabb surname (Mac an Abbadh in Irish Gaelic). Both these surnames mean 'son of the abbot'. Undoubtedly, most if not all of McNabs/McNabbs in Ireland - especially Ulster - are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters.

The rare native Irish surname McAnespie - Mac an Easpaig - from County Tyrone means 'son of the bishop'.

Hannah is a Scottish surname originating in Galloway in south west Scotland. The original form of the surname is said to be 'Ap Sheanaigh' meaning 'Son of Senach'. 'Ap' means 'son of' in the Welsh language and is equivalent to 'Mac' in Irish/Scottish Gaelic. The south west of Scotland - the ancient British Kingdom of Strathclyde - and the north west of England - Cumbria - were once the strongholds of the ancient Britons - from the River Clyde down to the River Mersey - and the ancient Britons spoke a language called Cumbric which was very similar to Welsh. (See post #1 of the topic 'Are The Scots Really Irish?'). I have seen 'Ap Sheanaigh' spelt 'Ap Shenaeigh' on a few websites. During the 17th century Scottish Protestant Plantations of Ulster many Hannahs from Galloway settled in Ulster where the 'h' was dropped and the surname became Hanna. There is some evidence that there is also a small native Irish Hanna (O'hAnnaidh) family originating in Connacht (Sligo, Mayo, Galway) in the west of Ireland, though it is undoubtedly the case that the vast majority of Hannas in Ireland are descendants of 17th century Scottish Hannah Planters, especially in Ulster. Hannah/Hanna is sometimes spelt Hannay. The Scottish surname of Hannay/Hanna(h) should not be confused with the native Irish surnames of Heaney and Hannon. The original Irish Gaelic form of the Heaney surname is O'hEighnigh in Ulster and O'hEanaigh or O'hEanna in Connacht and Munster and the original Irish form of Hannon is O'hAnnain in Connacht and Munster.

Posted by: try00 13th Dec 2007, 12:31am

Hi all,

just signed up to these boards so excuse me if I post in the wrong thread. If so, just point me in the right direction, thanks.

Im after any knowledge on the name McAleer. Is it an Irish or Scottish name? From different sources Im led to believe either way. A search on wikipedia tells me it ''originates'' in co.Tyrone...where Im from and there are many here. McAleer translated into Mac Giolla Uidir...It is thought to mean "Son of the servant of Saint Odhar. 'Legend' says that Saint Odhar was Saint Patrick's charioteer. Whilst some family members are adamant that it means "Son of the traveller". hmmm...

Some links shows me that it ''originates'' in Scotland and is linked to McClure?

Also...in school I was taught the translation was 'Mac Giolla Uir'...not Uidir.

Did we come here before/after the Ulster Plantations? Or were we already here? Catholic or Protestant settlers? Who did we descend from? Any help or links to the name is much appreciated and thanks for taking the time out to help.

: )

Posted by: Paul Kelly 13th Dec 2007, 10:48am

Hi try00,

I briefly mentioned the McAleer and McClure surnames in post #86. McAleer is a a native Irish surname originating in County Tyrone. The original Irish Gaelic form of the surname is Mac Giolla Uidhir/Uidir. The Irish word Giolla means a youth or a lad. However, if it is used in connection with a saint then it usually means that you are a follower/servant/devotee of that saint. Mac Giolla Uidhir must either mean 'the son of the dun-coloured youth' or 'the son of the devotee of St Odhar'. St Odhar was St Patrick's charioteer. Eachdonn Mac Giolla Uidhir was the Catholic Primate of Armagh in the early 13th century (according to Patrick Woulfe), so the surname has been in Ulster for a long time, before Plantation (17th century) and even Gallowglass (14th/15th century) times. The native Irish Maguire/McGuire (Mag Uidhir) surname originated in neighbouring County Fermanagh and means 'son of Odhar' or 'son of the dun-coloured one'. Dun-coloured means light brown or fawn and I understand this is a reference to hair colour.

McClure is a Scottish surname. The McClure surname has at least 3 separate origins in Scotland: (1) the Outer Hebrides in the far north west of Scotland (Mac Lobhair or MacLobhair meaning 'the son of the leper') (a sept of the McLeods of Harris) (2) Kintyre and Islay (Mac Gille Leabhair meaning 'the son of the devotee of the book') (a rare surname which probably became extinct or was absorbed by a larger family such as the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay) and (3) Galloway (the most numerous) in the extreme south west of Scotland (Mac Gille Uidhir meaning 'the son of the dun-coloured youth'). Gille is the Scottish equivalent of the Irish Giolla. Similar Gaelic surnames sometimes arose independently in Ireland and Scotland (eg see the McElroy and McIlroy surnames as described in post #219). I was reading on one website that the McClure family of Galloway might in fact be connected to the McClung family of Galloway. It has been documented that McClures from Galloway, Dumfries and Ayrshire (and possibly elsewhere) settled in Ulster during the 17th century Scottish Protestant Plantations.

According to MacLeod family history, some McClures (sept of clan McLeod) from the Outer Hebrides are said to have fled to County Galway in the west of Ireland after a battle in the 16th century, only for most of them to later RETURN to Scotland. The McLeod or McClure or McAleer surnames are NOT found in Galway so I am not sure how true this story is. Maybe they fled to Galloway in Scotland and not to Galway in Ireland. Incidentally, I have never heard of any McLeod Galloglasses settling permanently in Ireland and people with the McLeod (sometimes spelt McCloud) surname in Ireland today are almost certainly descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters. (See the topic 'Are The Scots Really Irish?' for a full discussion of Gallowglasses.)

The native Irish McAleer surname is common in south west Ulster (Tyrone, Fermanagh, Monaghan) whereas the Scottish Planter McClure surname is common in east Ulster (Antrim/Down/Armagh) and north west Ulster (Donegal/Derry). Having said all that, I am sure there must have been some intermingling of the similar sounding McAleer and McClure surnames in Ulster. It also seems likely that some of the illiterate 19th century Catholic Irish McAleer immigrants to Scotland would have had their surnames recorded as McClure.

Paul

Posted by: Guest Catherine Weist * 14th Dec 2007, 05:36pm

2 other Irish surnames that have recently been brought to my attention and which are found in the Glasgow area are the south Ulster (Armagh, Monaghan) surname Fearon and the rare Donegal surname Frize.

Just joined the Glasgow board as doing some family research. My maiden name is Frize and I know very little about them, all roads seem to lead to Donegal! I would be very grateful for any background information re this ellusive Frize clan. With many thanks, Cath

Posted by: Paul Kelly 15th Dec 2007, 11:14am

Gordon is obviously considered to be a Scottish surname and there are many Gordons in Ulster who are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters. However Gordon was also sometimes adopted as the Anglicised version of the native Gaelic Irish surnames Mag Mhuirneachain (McGurnaghan or Magournahan) in Ulster (Down, Antrim) and Morbhoirneach in Connacht (Sligo, Mayo, Leitrim). Some of the Gordons in the Glasgow area today are descended from these native Irish families.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 18th Dec 2007, 07:51am

Hi Cath.

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname

According to this website there were only 9 Frize households in Ireland in the 1850s and they were all found in County Donegal.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hiflyte/iredata/Griff_Val/gv_ef/gv_f5.htm

I supect Frize is the spelling of the Frizell surname in County Donegal.

The Frizells are said to be an Norman family who settled in the Province of Munster in the deep south of Ireland in the 13th century (see post #56 of the topic 'Are The Scots Really Irish?' for a discussion of the Normans in Ireland), though the surname seems to have died out in this part of Ireland. Today, the Frizell surname is found in west Ulster (County Tyrone next to Donegal) and north Connacht (County Sligo), though these families are said NOT to be connected to the old Norman family of Munster. From what I understand, the Frizells of Ulster and north Connacht are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Ayrshire. Frizell is a rare alternative spelling of the Scottish surname Fraser/Frazer. Incidentally, the Scottish suname Fraser is also said to be of Norman origins. In County Tyrone, most of the Frizell families are Protestant which supports a 17th century Scottish Planter origin of the surname. However, as you might be aware, in the 19th and early 20th centuries, all members of the small Frize family of Donegal appeared to be Catholic. It is known that during the past 400 years in Ulster, a few men of Scottish Protestant Planter extraction have married native Catholic Irish girls and raised their children as Catholics, so that might be the explanation. Mixed marriages have never been that common in Ulster, though they did happen occasionally. Alternatively, maybe the Frize surname was adopted by a native Catholic Irish family in Donegal when they thought it would have been to their advantage as sometimes happened in Ulster. However, there were definitely a few Scottish Protestant Planter Frizell families in Donegal in the 17th century.

http://www.ulsterancestry.com/ua-free-Muster_Rolls_Donegal_1631.html

http://vaugh.co.uk/frazer/frazerlandsirl.htm

The following website is invaluable for anyone with Donegal ancestry.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegal

If you click on the above you will notice a rectangular SEARCH BOX near the bottom of the page. Enter the surname Frize and you will find that there are 36 pages on this website with information on the Frize family of Donegal, including many census records. The Frize surname was found in the Donegal parishes of Gartan, Conwal and Kilmacrenan and ALL the Frize families in the 1901 and 1911 censuses were Catholic. However, it seems likely that the original Frizes in Donegal were Protestant Frizell Planters from Ayrshire who arrived during the 17th century Plantations of Ulster.

Have you checked the International Genealogical Index?

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true

Hope I have been of some help.

Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 19th Dec 2007, 10:47am

Mac Giolla Easpaig or Mac Giolla Easpuig is an Irish Gaelic surname originating in west Ulster (Donegal, Derry) and means 'son of the servant of the bishop'. This surname has been Anglicised as Gillespie. Mac Gille Easbuig is a Scottish surname which arose in several parts of Scotland and also means 'son of the servant of the bishop'. This surname has also been Anglicised as Gillespie. While most of the Gillespies in west Ulster are native Irish, it seems that most of the Gillespies in east Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters. In addition, some of the Gillespies in Scotland today are descendants of 19th century Irish immigrants from Ulster.

McKinney is quite a common surname in Ulster. While the McKinneys of west Ulster (Tyrone, Fermanagh) are said to be native Irish (MacCoinnigh), the McKinneys of east ulster (Antrim, Down) are said to be descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McKenzie - MacCoinnich - and possibly McKinnon Planters.

O'Neachtain (grandson or descendant of the waters) is an Irish surname originating in Connacht and Munster. This surname has been Anglicised as Naughton. Mac Neachtain is a Scottish surname associated with Argyll. The MacNeachtain surname has been Anglicised as McNaughton. The McNaughton surname is quite common in Ulster (particularly Antrim) and most of the Ulster McNaughtons are said to be descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Argyll, though a few might in fact be related to the native Irish Naughtons, especially in south Ulster.

McKnight (or McNaught) is a Scottish surname associated with Kircudbright and Dumfries in south west Scotland and the surname is common in Ulster. Most of the McKnights in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Dumfries, Galloway and Ayrshire, though a few might be related to the Irish (originally Norman?) Mac an Ridire family (also Anglicised as McKnight or Knight) which originated in Connacht and Munster.

Mac Reachtain is a Scottish surname originating in Galloway (Wigtownshire). The MacReachtain surname has been Anglicised as McCracken. There are many McCrackens in Ulster today who are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Galloway. I was reading on one website that there was also a small native Irish McCracken family originating in Loughinsholin in County Derry, though I am not sure if this is true as from what I can see most if not all of the McCrackens in Ulster are of Scottish Planter extraction. Incidentally, there was definitely a small native Irish Mac/Mag Reachtain family from County Down in east Ulster. This surname was Anglicised as McGrattan.

Posted by: lianmy 19th Dec 2007, 09:08pm

Can you tell me if the name Myers originated in Ireland? My husband's family came to Australia from Ireland in the 1800's, but we are not sure of the origin of the name Myers. We have tried to research the name without much success. Thanks.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 20th Dec 2007, 11:58am

O'Muircheartaigh is a native Irish surname meaning 'descendant or grandson of the navigator or skilled seaman'. In the south of Ireland - Munster Provice (particularly County Kerry) - the surname was Anglicised as Moriarty. Further north in the Irish Midlands and south Ulster, the name was Anglicised as Murtagh.

Mac Muircheartaigh or Mac Mhuircheartaigh is a Gaelic surname which arose independently in Ireland and Scotland and means 'son of the navigator or skilled seaman'.

There was a Scottish MacMhuircheartaigh - Anglicised as McCurdy - family originating on the Isle of Bute and members of this family were historically found on Bute, Arran and Kintyre in southern Argyll and on Rathlin Island which is just off the north coast of Antrim in Ulster. In the late 16th century, the McCurdy family of southern Argyll adopted the Protestant religion following the Scottish Reformation. However, the McCurdy family of Rathlin Island in Ireland remained Catholic. During the 17th century Scottish Plantations of Ulster, many Protestant McCurdys from southern Argyll settled in Ulster, particularly mainland Antrim. While most of the McCurdys in Ulster today are of Scottish Protestant Planter extraction, a few are in fact descendants of the Catholic McCurdys of Rathlin Island.

There was a native Irish MacMuircheartaigh (sometimes shortened to Mac Briartaigh or MacBriartaigh) family originating in County Donegal. This surname was Anglicised as McBrearty which is quite a common surname in Donegal.

There was also a Scottish MacMuircheartaigh family from Ayrshire. This surname was Anglicised as McMurtry and it is possible that the McMurtrys of Ayrshire were a branch the McCurdys of southern Argyll. The McMurtry surname is quite common in east Ulster today as a result of the 17th century Scottish Protestant Plantations.

The Scottish surname of Murdoch arose independently in several parts of Scotland. The original Scottish Gaelic form of the surname is said to be Muireadhach - a seaman - and one of the largest Murdoch families is from Galloway in south west Scotland. Murdoch is a common surname in Ulster and most of the Murdochs in Ulster - where the surname is sometimes spelt Murdock - are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Galloway. However, it is thought that a few of the native Irish Murtaghs in south Ulster adopted the Murdoch surname when they thought it would have been to their advantage, and it is known that many of the 19th century Irish Murtagh immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded incorrectly as Murdoch.

McMurdy is quite a common surname in east Ulster and the McMurdie family of Ulster are said to be descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant McMurdo Planters from Dumfries.

Finally, another Isle of Bute surname which is quite common in Ulster as a result of the 17th century Scottish Protestant Plantations is Glass.

Hi lianmy.

Myers is quite a common surname in Ireland where it is said to have 2 separate origins. O'Meidhir or O'Midhir (pronounced O'Mere and meaning 'mirth') is a native Irsh surname originating in the province of Munster - Kerry, Cork, Limerick, Clare, Tipperary and Waterford - in south west Ireland and this surname was Anglicised as Myers (or Myres or Mayers or Mears). The O'Midhirs were probably a branch of the large O'Meadhra - O'Meara - family which also originated in Munster and means 'mirth'. In the east (Leinster) and north (Ulster) of Ireland, the Myers are said to be of English/Scottish Protestant Planter extraction. Where did your husband's family come from in Ireland?

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname

Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 21st Dec 2007, 09:14am

The McGivern surname was mentioned yesterday in the 'Family Research' topic of this 'Family History' forum. McGovern and McGivern are both native Irish surnames though they should not be confused with one another.

The original Irish Gaelic form of the McGovern surname is Mag/Mac Shamhradhain (sometimes shortened to Mag Shamhrain) meaning 'son of the summery one'. This surname originated in south west Ulster (Cavan, Fermanagh) and north Connacht (Leitrim). The McGovern surname has occasionally been further Anglicised as Somers or Summers which is an English Planter surname found in Leinster Province in the east of Ireland. The rare native Irish Somahan - originally O'Somachain - surname (from Connacht Province in the west of Ireland and meaning 'descendant of the soft, innocent one') has also been Anglicised as Somers.

The original Irish Gaelic form of the McGivern surname is Mag Uidhrin meaning 'son of the small dun-coloured one' (see post #224). The surname originated in east Ulster (County Down). Montgomery and Biggar are common surnames in Ulster as a result of the 17th century Scottish Protestant Plantation. I was reading on a couple of wesites that a few of the native Irish McGiverns in east Ulster adopted these 2 Scottish Planter surnames when they thought it would have been to their advantage. A few even adopted the English Planter surname of Bickerstaff.

Another native Gaelic Irish surname originating in County Down in east Ulster is O'Sluaghadhain (sometimes abbreviated as O'Sluaghain) meaning 'the descendant of the army'. This surname has been Anglicised as Sloan or Sloane. There is also an unrelated Sloan family originating in the south of Scotland next to the English border. SOME of the Sloans in Ulster today are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters from Dumfries and Galloway. The native Irish O'Sluaghadhain surname is also found in Connacht Province in the west of Ireland (County Mayo) where it has been Anglicised as Sloyan. There is also the similar native Irish O'Sluaghadhaigh (or Mac Sluaghadhaigh) surname from County Monaghan in south Ulster which has been Anglicised as Slowey.

Posted by: lianmy 22nd Dec 2007, 06:56am

Thank you Paul for the information all we know is that Thomas Myers married Katherine Meaney in Limerick and they came to Melbourne in the 1850s to the gold fields.

Posted by: GG 3rd Jan 2008, 09:29pm

To Nancy Murdoch:

Nancy, If you're looking for your post, please go to URL below, where I moved it to a more relevant topic:

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5272&st=135

GG.

Posted by: Guest Marie * 11th Jan 2008, 08:28pm

QUOTE (lianmy @ 19th Dec 2007, 09:15 PM) *
Can you tell me if the name Myers originated in Ireland? My husband's family came to Australia from Ireland in the 1800's, but we are not sure of the origin of the name Myers. We have tried to research the name without much success. Thanks.


I'm a Myers whose grandfather came to New Zealand from County Kerry around 1912. It has always been understood by us that the family arrived in Ireland from Germany via Spain at some unknown time and later converted to Roman Catholicism from Judaism. When I went to my grandfather's home town some 20 years ago a cousin of my father mentioned that many of the other Myers in the area were no relation. There's also recently been a move by some family to have DNA testing done to hopefully give some clarification to this.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 12th Jan 2008, 07:34am

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 20th Dec 2007, 02:05 PM) *
Hi lianmy.

Myers is quite a common surname in Ireland where it is said to have 2 separate origins. O'Meidhir or O'Midhir (pronounced O'Mere and meaning 'mirth') is a native Irsh surname originating in the province of Munster - Kerry, Cork, Limerick, Clare, Tipperary and Waterford - in south west Ireland and this surname was Anglicised as Myers (or Myres or Mayers or Mears). The O'Midhirs were probably a branch of the large O'Meadhra - O'Meara - family which also originated in Munster and means 'mirth'. In the east (Leinster) and north (Ulster) of Ireland, the Myers are said to be of English/Scottish Protestant Planter extraction. Where did your husband's family come from in Ireland?

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname

Paul


Hi Marie.

The Myers from Munster Province in the south west of Ireland (including Kerry) by all accounts are a native Irish family.

Myers or Meyers or Meyer is also a Jewish surname. I am just after reading that there was some Jewish immigration into Ireland in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, as there was in Britain, including Glasgow. (see the last paragraph of post #53)

There are WIKIPEDIA entries entitled 'History of the Jews in Ireland' and 'History of the Jews in Scotland'.

Myer Galpern, who was Jewish, was the Lord Provost of Glasgow from 1958 to 1959 and was also the Labour MP for Glasgow Shettleston from 1959 to 1979.

http://www.theglasgowstory.com/image.php?inum=TGSE00738

Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 13th Jan 2008, 07:51am

In post #32 of this topic I discussed the Blantyre Explosion. I recently stumbled across the song The Blantyre Explosion as performed by the Irish folk group The Dubliners, vocalist Luke Kelly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR7NWyYm3nE

Also, in many posts of this topic, I have discussed the strong links between County Donegal and the city of Glasgow. I couldn't resist adding the following rendition of Donegal Danny, also performed by the Dubliners, vocalist Ronnie Drew.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02RJB663LKg

Posted by: McKeever 20th Jan 2008, 07:02pm

Mr.Kelly I will have to disagree with your assesment of the McKeever surname.Most if not all Irish McKeever's originally Spelled their surname McIver, and were of Scottish origin.I myself know that my ggggranfather spelt his name McIver, even though he was born in county Armagh in 1808.I have also taken a 37 Marker DNA test which shows a strong connection with the Campbell line of the Lochaw region. I am a decendant of Colin Mac Duibn of Lochaw's 3rd and youngest son Ivar Croumb.We have have alway's had a very close relationship with the Campbell's of Argyll.If you look into history we have both Catholic and Protestant beliefs in our familly.You will also find that we carried a dual surname of McIver Campbell,and would often use one or the other as it suited our needs.But if you wish to get down to absolutes then it could be said of most Highland Scotts that we are of orignal Irish stock in that most of the ancient Families came from the old Irish High Kings when they colonized Alba (Scotland) as is shown through the possession of the Stone of Scone,now back in Scotland.By the way my gggrandmother was a Kelly, Jemima Kelly Born County Armagh 1835.

Posted by: AF 21st Jan 2008, 09:56am

QUOTE (Guest Catherine Weist * @ 14th Dec 2007, 05:43 PM) *
2 other Irish surnames that have recently been brought to my attention and which are found in the Glasgow area are the south Ulster (Armagh, Monaghan) surname Fearon and the rare Donegal surname Frize.

Just joined the Glasgow board as doing some family research. My maiden name is Frize and I know very little about them, all roads seem to lead to Donegal! I would be very grateful for any background information re this ellusive Frize clan. With many thanks, Cath


Hi Cath,

My surname is Fries and I live in Donegal, the original spelling of my surname was Frize (my great grandfather changed the spelling because there is no Z in Gaelic). The fact that the name contains a Z suggests that it is an import into Gaelic Ireland, however no one knows when it arrived. All that is known is that we have been in Donegal for many hundreds of years (supposedly the name predates the plantation of Ulster however I havent seen any definitive evidence of this). I have read many different theories about the origin of the name but unfortunately I dont think anyone really knows for sure!

A

Posted by: Paul Kelly 21st Jan 2008, 05:01pm

Hi AF.

I wrote about the Frize surname in post #227. I was of course speculating and I said as much in the post. Although this Donegal surname is very elusive, I do find my discussion of the Frize surname quite plausible.

Hi McKeever.

You must be referring to post #174 of this topic.
Similar sounding and sometimes identical Gaelic surnames arose independently in both Scotland and Ireland. There is no doubt in my mind that some of the McKeevers/McIvors in Ulster are of native Irish ancestry while the others are of Scottish ancestry. You obviously belong to the latter category.

The Gaelic surname of Mac Iomhair arose separately in both Ireland (west Ulster - Derry and Tyrone) and Scotland (various parts of Scotland). In Scotland the surname was Anglicised as McIvor or McIver. In Ireland the surname was Anglicised as McKeever (or McGeever in Donegal, Leitrim and Mayo). The native Irish surname of Mac Eibhear or Mac Eibhir or Mac Eimhir (from County Monaghan) was also Anglicised as McKeever. During the 17th century Scottish Plantations of Ulster, Scottish McIvors undoubtedly settled in Ulster and some of them would have started using the Irish spelling of McKeever. This is not a unique situation and I have been challenged about it before. (see post #213)
In addition, I am sure that some of the 19th century Irish McKeever immigrants to Scotland would have had their surnames recorded in the Scottish form of McIvor.

I have just been reading on one website that in 'The Book of Ulster Surnames', Robert Bell states that the McKeever/McIvor surname can be of native Irish or Scottish Planter origin and he also claims that the surnames of McKeever and McIvor were being used interchangeably in Ulster, especially in Derry and Tyrone, in the 19th century. So, as well as some McIvors adopting the McKeever surname, some McKeevers were also adopting the McIvor surname. All very confusing!

As I said in post #174, there has been a lot intermingling of the Scottish McIvor and Irish McKeever surnames because of movements of people between Scotland and Ulster over the centuries.

Neile MacKeever is said to have been Shane O'Neill's secretary in the 16th century in pre-Plantation times.

http://www.ulsterancestry.com/irish-surnames.html

http://www.surnamedb.com/surname.aspx?name=McGeever

http://www.goireland.com/genealogy/scripts/Family.asp?FamilyID=1360

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname

Paul

Posted by: buntyq 24th Jan 2008, 01:55am

Paul, I want to tell you how much I have enjoyed reading all your scholarly posts. My Maiden name was Quinn and I understand that my father's parents came from Co. Tyrone. Thanks to some generous GG members who are interested in Genealogy I was given census records of the Quinn family in Glasgow. They were parishioners of St. Joseph's R.C. church in Cowcaddens. My father didn't talk about his family so I know very little about their life in Ireland and why they came to live in Glasgow. I draw a blank after the 1901 census and I am looking for ways to find out what happened to my grandparents especially records of their deaths. I believe that two of my aunts went to Canada. My Uncle Joe was drowned during WWII and I saw his name in the Commonwealth War Memorial wall when I was in London last year. This information was sent to me by another generous GG member. With their schooling interrupted at age 11 to go out and work, my parents were in their hearts scholars and were self taught throughout their lives.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 23rd Apr 2008, 04:43pm

Mac Niocaill is a native Gaelic Irish surname originating in Counties Derry and Tyrone of Ulster. The MacNiocaill surname has been Anglicised as McNicholl or Nicholas.

Mac Nioclais is a separate Irish surname from County Mayo in Connacht Province in the west of Ireland and is said to be originally of Norman extraction. The MacNioclais surname has been Anglicised as McNicholas or occasionally Nicholson. (See posts #56,#57 and #80 of the topic 'Are The Scots Really Irish?' for a discussion of Norman families in Ireland.)

Mac Neacail is a Scottish Gaelic surname originating in the western Highlands. The MacNeacail surname has been Anglicised as McNicholl, Nicholson or Nicholl. The surnames of Nicholl and Nicholson also arose independently in various part of the Scottish Lowlands and northern England.

The surnames of McNicholl, Nicholas, Nicholl and Nicholson are all common in Ulster. Most people in Ulster with the surnames McNicholl and Nicholas are said to be of native Irish MacNiocaill extraction. Similarly, most people in Ulster with the surnames Nicholl and Nicholson are said to be descendants of 17th century Scottish (and northern English) Protestant Planters. As you would expect with surnames, there are exceptions to this rule!

Finally, in the 19th century, many Irish immigrants with these surnames settled in Scotland.

Posted by: Allan Delargy 29th Apr 2008, 12:10pm

I used to stay in Springfield avenue Achinairn from 1948 till 1968, my grandfather was Patrick Delargy from Crowhill Road before that Mavis Valley. The Irish are everywhere.

Posted by: Moira Hannam 29th Apr 2008, 11:27pm

Hi Paul
My great grandfather William Crown from Stranorlar married his second wife Mary Houston of Midcut in Donegal. I am in the process of having some research done on my grandmother's family and awaiting her birth certificate. I think that Mary Houston was her mother.

Best wishes
Moira

Posted by: Paul Kelly 30th Apr 2008, 11:48am

Hi Allan.

Delargy (O'Duibhlearga or O'Duilearga) is not a surname I had heard of before. I have just had a quick look at it. It seems the surname is associated with the Glens of Antrim and that the surname originated in County Mayo in the west of Ireland. It is said that the Delargys migrated from County Mayo to County Antrim in the 16th century. I was reading on one webite that the Delargys were actually driven out of County Mayo by the Barretts and the Burkes, both of whom were Gaelicised Norman families.
Some members of the O'Hara (O'hEaghra) family are said to have made a similar migration from Sligo/Mayo to Antrim in the 14th century. Long migrations to have been made by foot! These migrations, of course, might have been made by sea from the north coast of Mayo/Sligo (around the coastline of Donegal and Derry) to the north coast of Antrim.

http://delargy.com/Genealogy/familytree.htm

http://www.delargyfamily.com/HistoryOfDelargy.asp

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname


Paul

Posted by: RonD 30th Apr 2008, 11:01pm

Mc Lysaght has the name from "learge" a plain or a slope. Welcome to the boards Allan. Ladies and gentleman Allan was a school mate iof minein primary school. (Ron Dempsey)

Posted by: Paul Kelly 2nd May 2008, 03:46pm

QUOTE (Moira Hannam @ 30th Apr 2008, 01:34 AM) *
Hi Paul
My great grandfather William Crown from Stranorlar married his second wife Mary Houston of Midcut in Donegal. I am in the process of having some research done on my grandmother's family and awaiting her birth certificate. I think that Mary Houston was her mother.

Best wishes
Moira


Hi Moira.

You and I might be distant relatives. My greatgreatgrandmother was Mary Bridget Houston (known as Bridget Houston, see post #180 of this topic). Bridget came from Meenbane in the parish of Stranorlar OR Magheravall in the parish of Convoy OR Lettermore in the parish of Convoy and she was born c1845. The townlands/villages of Meenbane, Magheravall and Lettermore are all located next to each other on the border of the Donegal parishes of Stranorlar and Convoy.
MAGHERAVALL IS ALSO KNOWN MIDCUT.

A copy of my family tree can be found at the end of post #64 of this topic. I have also attached a copy of my family tree to this post.

Bridget Houston was married to a Bradley from Meenbane, Stranorlar. Their daughter, Mary Anne Bradley (born Meenbane c1870), is my greatgrandmother. I have never actually found the birth details of Mary Anne Bradley, though I have found the birth details of her younger sister, Bridget Bradley, born Meenbane 1879.

Houston is generally considered to be a Scottish surname. There are said to be 2 origins for the surname in Scotland. Most Houstons are said to be descendants of Hugh de Paduinan, a 12th century Norman knight, who founded the town of Houston in Renfrewshire. The other Scottish Houstons are said to have been originally Mac Uisdin or Mac Uistin in Scottish Gaelic, though the MacUisdin/MacUistin surname was more usually Anglicised as McCutcheon. There are many Houstons and McCutcheons in Ulster who are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters.

While some of the Houstons in County Donegal are of Scottish Planter extraction, the others are actually of native Irish stock. The native Gaelic Irish Mac Giolla tSeachlainn (or Mac Giolla Sheachlainn) family of County Donegal anglicised their surname as Houston or Huston in the years following the Plantations. This is said to apply particularly to the Houston/Huston families in the parishes of Stranorlar, Convoy and Kilteevoge in east Donegal. MacGiollatSeachlainn means 'the son of the devotee of St Seachlann' and I believe the Houstons of Magheravall (Midcut), Lettermore and Meenbane all belonged to this native Irish family.

The following website shows the 1857 Griffith's Valuation for all the parishes in County Donegal. Check the Houston/Huston entries for the parishes of Convoy, Stranorlar and Kilteevoge.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/griffiths.htm

My greatgreatgrandmother, Bridget Houston, actually appears in household number 15 of the 1901 census for Meenavoy, Stranorlar under her married name of Bridget Bradley, age 55 years. She must have been visiting her daughter, my greatgrandmother, Mary Anne Rutherford (nee Bradley) in Meenavoy at the time of the census. Meenavoy is just next to Meenbane, Midcut and Lettermore.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/1901meenavoy.htm

Although the surname of Crown or Crowne is not associated with County Donegal, there was a Crown/Crowne family in Stranorlar in the 1860s according to the International Genealogy Index. Were William Crown's parents called James and Sally? The Crown/Crowne (Mac Conchruachan in Irish Gaelic) surname is associated with County Leitrim, which is just to the south of County Donegal. There were also a few Crown families in County Derry, which is just to the east of County Donegal. I get the impression that the Crown families in Derry might have been of Planter extraction.

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname

http://www.familysearch.org/ENG/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true

Please let me know the details of Mary Houston's birth certificate when/if you get it. Look forward to hearing from you.

Paul

 Meenavoy_Ancestors.doc ( 32K )  Family_Tree.doc ( 29.5K )
 

Posted by: MLC 29th May 2008, 06:25am

Paul

I've just come across this interesting conversation and hope you may be able to make a comment on the Weir/Ware surname. My ancestors appear to have "flip-flopped" between the use of these names in census forms and various certificates. Until we began Scottish research we were unaware of the Ware surname. As far as we were concerned our ancestors were and are Weirs! My ancestor's parents were "Ware" on their death certs in 1898 & 1900. His children are recorded as Weirs on birth certs commencing 1893. Can you make any comments? This family lived in Greenock and I believe they came from Co. Armagh.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 30th May 2008, 08:00am

Hi MLC.

It is undoubtedtly the case that quite a number of native Irish families adopted Scottish (and English) surnames as the Anglicised versions of their Irish Gaelic surnames in the years following the 17th century Plantations in Ulster (and in Ireland in general). I gave the example of the Houston surname in my previous post of this topic (#246) and I have given many other examples in earlier posts. Furthermore, many of the illiterate 19th century Irish immigrants to Scotland had their surnames 'Scotticised' by the Scottish officials who recorded their surnames, as I mentioned in my introductory post to this topic. So many people with apparently Scottish (and English) surnames are actually of native Irish extraction.

Weir is said to be a Scottish surname of Norman origin, and was first found in the Roxburgh region of the Scottish Borders. The original Norman French form of the surname is said to be 'de Ver' or 'de Vere'. It is also possible that some Weirs are of Scottish Gaelic extraction. I have read on a few websites that some members of the Scottish clan McNair adopted the Weir surname.

Many of the Weirs in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters. Mac an Mhaoir meaning 'the son of the steward' is a native Gaelic Irish surname originating in County Armagh. The head of this family was the hereditary keeper of the Book of Armagh. In the years following the Plantations, most - if not all - members of this family Anglicised their surname as Weir. While many of the Weirs in Ulster are undoubtedly of Scottish Planter extraction, the others are in fact members of the native Irish MacanMhaoir family, especially in and around County Armagh. I have also read on a couple of websites that a few members of the native Gaelic Irish Mac Giolla Uidhir (McAleer) family of County Tyrone also adopted the Weir surname. (see post #224 for a discussion of the McAleer surname). The Irish surname of O'Corra from County Westmeath in the Irish Midlands was also sometimes Anglicised as Weir.

Ware is an English Planter surname in Ireland, found mainly in the south of Ireland, around Dublin (Leinster) and Cork (Munster). Where it is found occasionally in Ulster, it is probably just an alternative spelling of the Weir surname.

The spellings of illiterate Irish immigrants surnames on Scottish birth, marriage and death certificates and on census returns can vary from document to document, and often the Scottish official recording the surname would just write down what he thought he was hearing.

The fact you say your ancestors came from County Armagh makes me think that their surname was Weir and not Ware. Whether they were Weirs of Scottish Planter extraction or of native Irish Mac An Mhaoir extraction I don't know. Their religion would probably give you an indication.

http://www.hoganstand.com/general/Identity/folk.htm

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname

Posted by: Paul Kelly 30th May 2008, 07:31pm

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 30th May 2008, 10:07 AM) *
Weir is said to be a Scottish surname of Norman origin, and was first found in the Roxburgh region of the Scottish Borders. The original Norman French form of the surname is said to be 'de Ver' or 'de Vere'. It is also possible that some Weirs are of Scottish Gaelic extraction. I have read on a few websites that some members of the Scottish clan McNair adopted the Weir surname.


Further to what I wrote this morning, I have been reading about the Scottish surname McNair. The surname seems to have several origins in Scotland.

The Scots Gaelic surname of Mac Iain Uidhir from Ross in the northwest Highlands of Scotland has been Anglicised as McNair. The Scots Gaelic surname of Mac an Oighre from Perthshire, Stirlingshire and Dunbartonshire has also been Anglicised as McNair. Finally, the Scots Gaelic surname of Mac Amhaoir from Cowal in Argyll has also been Anglicised as McNair. Some websites claim that the McNairs of Dunbartonshire are related to the McNairs of Cowal and not the McNairs of Perthshire. Dumbartonshire is of course to the immediate east of Cowall.

Note the similarity between the Irish Gaelic surname of MacanMhaoir from County Armagh and the Scots Gaelic surname of MacAmhaoir from Cowall in Argyll. Similar sounding and sometimes identical Gaelic surnames arose independently in Ireland and Scotland. Cowal was of course part of the ancient Scottish Kingdom of Dalriada.

Like the MacAnMhaoirs of County Armagh, it seems the McNairs (MacAmhaoirs) of Cowal also Anglicised their surnames as Weir.

Of course, the majority of Scottish Weirs - the Weirs of the Scottish Lowlands - are descended from the Norman 'de Ver', and not the McNairs of Cowal.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 12th Jun 2008, 07:36pm

Irish immigrants settled in Glasgow from the early 19th century up to the mid 20th century, although the bulk arrived in the mid to late 19th century in the decades following the Famine of the 1840s.

I recently stumbled across the following website. It is about Irish immigrants from County Donegal who settled in Glasgow in the years immediately after the Second World War. Most of these late Irish immigrants came from the Gaeltacht in County Donegal - the Gweedore area - and they settled largely in the Gorbals before the slum clearances and redevelopments of the 1950s and 1960s. Some of them eventually returned to County Donegal.

http://donegal.cagora.com/node/178008

The links between County Donegal and the city of Glasgow are truly remarkable. I think it is fair to say that no county contributed more to Irish immigration into Scotland than County Donegal.

Posted by: RonD 13th Jun 2008, 12:46am

A fascinating piece, Paul

Posted by: MF 15th Jun 2008, 12:11pm

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 12th Jun 2008, 07:43 PM) *
Irish immigrants settled in Glasgow from the early 19th century up to the mid 20th century, although the bulk arrived in the mid to late 19th century in the decades following the Famine of the 1840s.

I recently stumbled across the following website. It is about Irish immigrants from County Donegal who settled in Glasgow in the years immediately after the Second World War. Most of these late Irish immigrants came from the Gaeltacht in County Donegal - the Gweedore area - and they settled largely in the Gorbals before the slum clearances and redevelopments of the 1950s and 1960s. Some of them eventually returned to County Donegal.

http://donegal.cagora.com/node/178008

The links between County Donegal and the city of Glasgow are truly remarkable. I think it is fair to say that no county contributed more to Irish immigration into Scotland than County Donegal.

That was a great piece from YouTube.

Posted by: Alexander Connor 1st Jul 2008, 02:29am

QUOTE (Allan Delargy @ 29th Apr 2008, 12:27 PM) *
I used to stay in Springfield avenue Achinairn from 1948 till 1968, my grandfather was Patrick Delargy from Crowhill Road before that Mavis Valley. The Irish are everywhere.

Hi Allan Delargy, my name is alex and i live in Australia, my uncle patrick delargy lived in mavis valley around 1910 1925 , he had a few sisters,I wonder if its possible its the same one.

Posted by: Mhuire Nic Eimher 10th Aug 2008, 12:09pm

wub.gif Hello Paul Re McGeever name
[b]We are descended from Donegal-Derry McGeevers, our name-spelling on family 19thc Glasgow/Kelvin and Milton Parishes BDM certs from 1860 onwards have the following spellings, McKeever, McKeevor, MacKever, McKever, McKiver,McIver, McIvor. One day at Park Circus I noticed that in the Kelvin Parish only McIvers were born, another year only McIvors-it really did depend on the Registrar. We have been McIvors since 1916, altho resident in Glasgow since 1860. The reason for McGeever is simple, in some places-Mag was used for son of before Mac was used, a sort of combination is used in names such as McGrory (son of Ruraidh), McGeever (Eimher), McGuiness (Ennis) etc etc etc
I think too much is made of this is an Irish, this is a Scottish name-with perhaps another agenda-they are Gaelic names, with variant spellings-much in the same way that USA English spelling differs from that of UK English.
Has anyone else noticed the many Scottish and Irish women who are dropping Mac and reverted to Nic or Nhic [daughter of)?

Other Irish names on our tree-not seen in the posts...Lavery-Sharkey-Quigley-McCard.

We also have Young, some sources argue tthat Youngs are Gaelic Oge's?
Hmm?







dry.gif

Posted by: RonD 10th Aug 2008, 01:40pm

Sharkey from O Searcaigh from "searcach or loving", originally a Tyrone whch has spread throughout the northwest. O Lavery or sometimes Lowry, from labraidh a spokesperson was comprised of three branches all in the northwest of Ireland. Quigley from O Quigley with no settled origin for the name, they were a apreto f the Ui Fiacrach an ancient group from the Galway area that included also the O Shaughnessys, found prodominately in Donegal and Derry. Sorry I couldn't find anything on McCard

Posted by: rice? 29th Aug 2008, 06:22pm

hi paul was the surname rice of native irish origin when found in ireland?

Posted by: pr77 29th Aug 2008, 07:45pm

Hi Paul,

My name is Patricia Rodgers and I have read your postings with growing interest as our families seem to be similar in many ways. My grandmother' name was Jane Houston and she married Samual Rodgers in the early 1900's. They lived in the Garngad Hill and they had four sons and six daughters and their names are: Jean; Rose(y); Samuel; Robert; Hugh(ie) - my father; Susan aka Sissy; Margaret; Betty; Cathie and John (who were twins). After the war they moved to Barrowfield (Stamford Street), where I lived from age 6 to 13. We had a Kelly family next close to us. Their mother had passed away and I think their father's name was James. There was Jean, Katie, Paddy and Johnny. This was in the early 70's. I wonder if you could enlighten me with any further information, especially as to the origin of the surname Rodgers.

Posted by: Moira Hannam 4th Sep 2008, 11:21pm

Paul
Have you any information regarding Tinney marriages? My great grandfather, William Crown born about 1858 in Midcut, was married to a Tinney woman, who I think was from the Convoy area. I have had searches done at the Register Office in Roscommon and Donegal Ancestry Limited, but still haven't found anything.
I have found the record of his marriage to Mary Houston in 1901. Mary Houston aged 32 years was the daughter of Henry Houston, a farmer.
I still have not been able to find the birth of my grandmother, Elizabeth Crown, until I do I can't say which of these wives was my great grandmother.

I have found a marriage record for a William Crown of Aughysheil and Sarah Doherty of Creggan, Midcut, who married in 1882. This couple had a daughter, Eliza Jane, in 1886. A second cousin in Midcut, who I found recently and have spoken to, does not think it is the same William Crown as he has not heard of this marriage, but does think it will be connected to the family.

In an earlier message you mentioned a James Crown and Sarah Houston of Stranorlar. These are my gr, gr grandparents. My second cousin also went to the cemetery and gave me the details from their headstone.

Thanks very much for your family tree, it does look as if we might be related somewhere down the line. I also wondered if we might have some connection with the Kelly name, as my great grandmother, Sarah Quigley, maiden name Deeney, went to live in Greenock with a John Kelly, who was born abt 1863. They later married. They had a son, also called John F, born in 1895.

If I find any more Tinney or Houston info I will let you know.

Best wishes Moira

Posted by: Paul Kelly 7th Sep 2008, 08:30am

Hi rice.

I have written about the Rice surname before. If you type Rice in the search box near the bottom of this page then you will see the post.
Here is a link to the post (#210).

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6148&view=findpost&p=166551


Hi pr77

I have written about the Rodgers surname several times in this topic and in the topic 'Are The Scots Really Irish?'. Again, try the search box.

I think this was the most informative post from 'Are The Scots Really Irish?'.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=160394

I am not related to the Kellys from Stamford Street. It was my mum's family - the Connollys - who stayed in Stamford Street after the 2nd World War up to the early 1960s. My mum says her younger sister Jessie Connolly (born c1940) had a friend called Jane Rodgers and that they were in the same class at St Anne's Primary school, Bridgeton next to the Gallowgate.


Hi Moira.

I have no doubt you and I are distant relatives. I am also related to the Tinney and Houston families from southwest Convoy and north Stranorlar. As I have mentioned in earlier posts, both of these families were native Gaelic Irish. (see posts #170 and #246)

In fact the surnames of Houston/Huston and Tinney/Tunny were 2 of the most common surnames in the parish of Convoy according to the 1857 Griffiths Valuation for County Donegal and these families were found clustered around Drumkeen in southwest Convoy next to the parish of Stranorlar.

The Tinney surname was recorded as Tunny in the 1857 Griffith's Valuation for Donegal. I think this was because Tunny was a common surname in parts of the south of Ireland and the officials who recorded the GV in Donegal probably came from Dublin. There are other examples of this. For example, the County Donegal/Derry surname of Kane was usually recorded as Keane in the 1857 GV for Donegal, Keane of course being a common surname in the south of Ireland. I could give many other examples.

I intend doing a post in the future about the spellings of surnames in the 1857 Griffith's Valuation for County Donegal as I know many people have difficulty locating their ancestors in the GV, largely because of the way many of the more obscure surnames were spelt by Dublin officials. Most Donegal people (especially the Catholic population) were illiterate at the time of the 1857 GV and had no way of correcting the officials.

Paul

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/townlands/index.cfm?fuseaction=TownlandsInCivil&civilparishid=754&civilparish=Convoy&citycounty=Donegal

Posted by: pr77 7th Sep 2008, 04:13pm

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 7th Sep 2008, 09:34am) *
Hi rice.

I have written about the Rice surname before. If you type Rice in the search box near the bottom of this page then you will see the post.
Here is a link to the post (#210).

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6148&view=findpost&p=166551
Hi pr77

I have written about the Rodgers surname several times in this topic and in the topic 'Are The Scots Really Irish?'. Again, try the search box.

I think this was the most informative post from 'Are The Scots Really Irish?'.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=160394

I am not related to the Kellys from Stamford Street. It was my mum's family - the Connollys - who stayed in Stamford Street after the 2nd World War up to the early 1960s. My mum says her younger sister Jessie Connolly (born c1940) had a friend called Jane Rodgers and that they were in the same class at St Anne's Primary school, Bridgeton next to the Gallowgate.
Hi Moira.

I have no doubt you and I are distant relatives. I am also related to the Tinney and Houston families from southwest Convoy and north Stranorlar. As I have mentioned in earlier posts, both of these families were native Gaelic Irish. (see posts #170 and #246)

In fact the surnames of Houston/Huston and Tinney/Tunny were 2 of the most common surnames in the parish of Convoy according to the 1857 Griffiths Valuation for County Donegal and these families were found clustered around Drumkeen in southwest Convoy next to the parish of Stranorlar.

The Tinney surname was recorded as Tunny in the 1857 Griffith's Valuation for Donegal. I think this was because Tunny was a common surname in parts of the south of Ireland and the officials who recorded the GV in Donegal probably came from Dublin. There are other examples of this. For example, the County Donegal/Derry surname of Kane was usually recorded as Keane in the 1857 GV for Donegal, Keane of course being a common surname in the south of Ireland. I could give many other examples.

I intend doing a post in the future about the spellings of surnames in the 1857 Griffith's Valuation for County Donegal as I know many people have difficulty locating their ancestors in the GV, largely because of the way many of the more obscure surnames were spelt by Dublin officials. Most Donegal people (especially the Catholic population) were illiterate at the time of the 1857 GV and had no way of correcting the officials.

Paul

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/townlands/index.cfm?fuseaction=TownlandsInCivil&civilparishid=754&civilparish=Convoy&citycounty=Donegal


Hi Paul,

Thanks for getting back to me on my post. I have since found out that the Rodgers surname is actually German and its definition, according to Wikipaedia, is "spear-weilding warrior". The Jane Rodgers who went to school with your aunt is my cousin, she married a Jim Gould and they had nine children. Sadly we have lost touch. I also attended St Anne's in later years: 1966-1970.
Thanks again.

Posted by: dubhag 13th Sep 2008, 03:42pm

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=6148&view=findpost&p=119118

Paul Kelly.

I believe CANNON is a Scottish name from Galloway. Correct me if im wrong. It is similar to the surname DONNAN which is from Moray.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 13th Sep 2008, 04:17pm

As far as I am aware, Cannon is a native Irish surname strongly associated with Counties Donegal and Galway. The original Irish Gaelic form is O'Canannain in Donegal and O'Canain in Galway. I know my dad has Cannon relatives in Donegal.

There is also an English surname Cannon.

I am just after reading on the net that there is a rare Scottish surname Kennon from Galloway which is probably an abbreviation of the Scottish surname McKinnon and which might occasionally be spelt Cannon.

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/

Posted by: Paul Kelly 13th Sep 2008, 05:58pm

In post #142 I was discussing Lochranza Castle. This is a photo I took of my daughter at Lochranza.

Edit - Oops. I meant to post this in the topic 'Are The Scots Really Irish?' and I was referring to post #142 of that topic.


 

Posted by: peter patten 4th Nov 2008, 02:53am

re Post #180
My Pattens were from the countryside east of Castlederg in the parish of Ardstraw. Not far from an obvious ancestral townland of "Ballyfatten". Instead of heading east to Glasgow (as my Castlecaldwell Gallaghers initially did) They joined several families from their district who were already working the marble quarries in West Rutland, Vermont in 1861. My ggrandfather John Patten was a larger than life character on both sides of the Atlantic but seems to have left no mark in the written or oral tradition in West Tyrone from my limited browsing.
The Mayo Pattens were part of a large contingent West Ulster folks led by an O'Donnell who relocated in Mayo when things got a bit unfavorable in their home district in the mid 1600s.
All The Best,
Peter

Posted by: Guest Sandra * 29th Nov 2008, 12:22am

I have just started doing research on some family names. My great grandmothers surname was Guild. I was told it was Irish, but i cannot find it on any Irish sites. So i checked Scottish sites after reading some of the changing of names that has went on. Is there anyone that knows if this is an Irish or Scottish surname. Any information will be greatly appreciated.
Just in case this helps. My great-grandmother married a Webster. This must have been around the 1900s, i think. smile.gif
I really don't know anything about this side of my family. So i don't know any locations or birthplaces. Just the names.
Thank you,
Sandra

Posted by: Paul Kelly 1st Dec 2008, 09:44am

Thanks for the info Peter.

Some of the Pattens/Pattons in Ulster are of Scottish/English Planter extraction. However most of the Pattens/Pattons in east Donegal (around Stranorlar/Ballybofey) and west Tyrone (around Castlederg/Strabane) belong to the native Irish O'Peatain family who Anglicised their surnames as Patton/Patten in the years following the Plantations. My Kelly ancestors come from the Donegal/Tyrone border area, and from what I can see, Kelly is probably the most common Irish surname in that locality.

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/townlands/index.cfm?fuseaction=TownlandslnCivil&parishid=759&civilparish=Donaghmore&civilcounty=Donegal

Many Donegal (particularly east Donegal) and west Tyrone families migrated to County Mayo in the mid 17th century to escape the effects of the Ulster Plantations. Many Donegal surnames are commonly found in County Mayo as a result of this migration. eg Gallagher, Doherty, McLaughlin, Sweeney, Kelly, Boyle, McMenamin (usually spelt McManamon or McManaman in Mayo), O'Donnell, Patten, etc. These surname are also of course all commonly found in Glasgow as a result of the large number of Irish immigrants from west Ulster who settled in Glasgow in the mid/late 19th century. (See my introductory post to this topic). The McMenamin/McMenemin surname is usually spelt McMenamy/McMenemy in Glasgow. The original Irish Gaelic form of this surname is MacMeanman.

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/

Posted by: Paul Kelly 1st Dec 2008, 11:00am

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 1st Dec 2008, 11:43am) *
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/townlands/index.cfm?fuseaction=TownlandslnCivil&parishid=759&civilparish=Donaghmore&civilcounty=Donegal

Hi again Peter.

I made a mistake with the above link in my previous post. Here it is again with an additional link. Kelly was the most common surname in southeast Donegal (parishes of Donaghmore and Stranorlar) next to County Tyrone according to the 1857 Griffith's Valuation.

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/townlands/index.cfm?fuseaction=TownlandsInCivil&civilparishid=759&civilparish=Donaghmore&civilcounty=Donegal

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/townlands/index.cfm?fuseaction=TownlandsInCivil&civilparishid=790&civilparish=Stranorlar&civilcounty=Donegal

Posted by: Paul Kelly 14th Dec 2008, 11:02am

In my previous 2 posts I was discussing the parishes of Donaghmore and Stranorlar in south east Donegal. My Kelly and Tinney (Tunny) ancestors came from the townland of Meenavoy in the parish of Stranorlar. When I was researching my family tree I had noticed that some of my Kelly and Tinney ancestors had married members of a family called Ponsonby who had come from the townland of Teevickmoy in the parish of Stranorlar. Meenavoy and Teevickmoy are neighbouring townlands in Stranorlar, Tivickmoy being to the immediate south of Meenavoy.

Ponsonby is a very English sounding surname and I have always wondered who this Ponsonby family were. I thought it was possible that a native Gaelic Irish family in Donegal might have adopted the Ponsonby surname as the Anglicised version of their surname as often happened in the years following the Planatations. Earlier this year I was contacted by a lady from Canada called Jane whose mother has Donegal Ponsonby ancestry. She told me a lot about the Ponsonby surname in Donegal.

The English family of Ponsonby had arrived in Ireland in the 17th century as Protestant Planters with Oliver Cromwell and they were 'given' land and eventually the title 'Earl of Bessborough' in County Kilkenny in the south east of Ireland as a reward for their efforts in aiding Cromwell. According to family legend, somewhere back in the Ponsonby family line, the oldest son of the Earl of Bessborough in Kilkenny had run off with the Irish Catholic maid to his younger Ponsonby siblings. This son was disowned by the Ponsonby family and he is said to be the ancestor of the Catholic Ponsonby family of Donegal.

In the 1857 Griffith's Valuation for County Donegal (which lists the heads of ALL the households in Donegal in 1857) there are no Ponsonby families mentioned. However, Jane and I soon realised that the Ponsonby surname had been recorded as Punch in the 1857 GV for Donegal. The Punches were an Anglo-Norman family who had settled in the south of Ireland in the 13th century. The Irish Gaelic form of the Punch surname is Puinse. Most of the Norman families from England and Wales who settled in Ireland in the 12th/13th centuries adopted Irish Gaelic culture, including the Irish language, hence the Irish Gaelic form of the surname. Incidentally, no Norman families settled in County Donegal. (See posts #56 and #57 of the topic 'Are The Scots really Irish?' for further discussion of Norman families in Ireland).

As I mentioned in post #259 of this topic, many surnames were recorded incorrectly in the 1857 GV for Donegal by, I suspect, southern officials. This certainly happened in the case of the Ponsonby surname in Donegal. The Ponsonby and Punch surnames are in NO WAY related and the southern officials must have thought that the few Donegal families giving their name as Ponsonby in the 1857 GV were saying Punch (Puinse). The Donegal Ponsonby families would have been illiterate and would have had no way of correcting the officials.

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/

In fact, there were only 2 Ponsonby (recorded incorrectly as Punch) households in the whole of County Donegal according to the 1857 GV. These 2 households were headed by Thomas Punch (really Ponsonby) in Teevickmoy, Stranorlar and John Punch (really Ponsonby) in Cavan Lower (near Killygordon), Donaghmore. The townland of Cavan Lower is just to the east of the townland of Tivickmoy. Thomas and John were probably the grandsons/greatgrandsons of the Protestant Ponsonby from Kilkenny who had run off with the Catholic maid and all the Ponsonbys in Donegal today are descended from either John or Thomas.

There are also several Ponsonby families in the Glasgow area who are descended from the Donegal Ponsonbys. I am sure the Scottish Television political editor and journalist Bernard Ponsonby is connected to the Donegal family though I am not sure of the exact connection.

I have added a few links about the Ponsonby family of Donegal and files showing how they are connected to my family.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/radiofoyle/peoples_war/stories/mcbride.shtml

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/88/a8987188.shtml

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/1901meenavoy.htm

 Meenavoy_Ancestors.doc ( 32K )  Family_Tree.doc ( 29.5K )
 

Posted by: Paul Kelly 16th Dec 2008, 03:51pm

Yesterday I mentioned that there were 2 Ponsonby households (recorded incorrectly under the surname Punch) in the 1857 Griffith's Valuation for County Donegal, one headed by a Thomas in Tievickmoy, Stranorlar and the other headed by John in Cavan Lower (between Ballybofey and Killygordon), Donaghmore. According to my Canadian friend Jane, John Ponsonby was born c1784 and Thomas Ponsonby was born c1791 and they were brothers. Jane says John Ponsonby was her greatgreatgreatgrandfather. John Ponsonby was married twice. His 1st wife was Margaret Toner/Tonner and his 2nd wife was Mary Paton/Patton. (That surname Patten again which was discussed in posts #180, #264 and #266). Thomas Ponsonby was married once to a Margaret Monteith.
Jane says John Ponsonby and Margaret Toner had a son John junior (born Donegal c1817) who was her greatgreatgrandfather. John Ponsonby junior moved to Scotland in the 1840s where he married a Helen/Ellen Docherty (daughter of John Docherty and Mary Diamond of County Derry) at St John's Catholic Church, Port Glasgow in 1846. They had 11 children, 10 of whom were born in Dumbarton. The oldest of the 11 children, Jane Ponsonby (born 1848 in Greenock), is the greatgrandmother of my Canadian friend Jane.
John Ponsonby junior had a younger half brother James Ponsonby (born Donegal c1820) (son of John Ponsonby senior and Mary Paton). He also moved to Scotland and married Mary McMurrich/McMorrow/McMurray/Murray (see posts #203 #204 #205 #206 #230) at St Patrick's Catholic Church, Anderston, Glasgow in 1858 and had 3 daughters. There were at least 2 brothers to John junior and James who remained in Donegal.
Finally, Thomas Ponsonby and Margaret Monteith had at least 6 children, some of whom also went to Scotland.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 17th Dec 2008, 08:54am

Continuing with my post from yesterday, it seems that all the Ponsonby families that are still found in County Donegal today are descendants of Thomas Ponsonby and Margaret Monteith. In particular, Thomas and Margaret had a son William Ponsonby (born c1825 in Tievockmoy). William moved to Scotland in the 1840s (with 2 of his brothers Thomas and John) and married a Margaret Boyle (who it seems was also originally from County Donegal) in St Mary's Catholic Church, Greenock in 1853. Shortly after marrying, William and Margaret returned to Teevickmoy, Donegal where they raised a family of 6 children. Most of these 6 children would later return to Scotland as adults (Glasgow and Renfrewshire). William and Margaret had a son William Ponsonby who was born c1856. William Ponsonby married Anne Kelly (born Meenavoy c1860) around 1880. Annie Kelly was a 1st cousin of my greatgrandfather Hugh Kelly (born Meenavoy 1866). William and Annie had 10 children, the family first of all living in Tivockmoy, Stranorlar and later moving to Convoy town in the early 1900s. All the Ponsonby families still found in County Donegal today are said to be the descendants of William Ponsonby and Annie Kelly.

In post # 268 I attached a file called My Meenavoy Ancestors. I have since updated the 2 entries about the Ponsonbys in the file and I now attach the updated file which contains info about William Ponsonby and Annie Kelly, and also their son William Ponsonby junior who married another distant relative of mine, Catherine (Cassie) Tinney (born Meenavay 1880). Willie and Cassie settled in Mullandrait next to Stranorlar town.

 Meenavoy_Ancestors_Updated.doc ( 32K )
 

Posted by: Guest john * 18th Dec 2008, 07:56pm

my surname is bradley i think it comes from derry,donegal,is it a popular name among the glasgow irish.

Posted by: jane duncanson 28th Dec 2008, 12:45am

My family are from Garngad in Glasgow and I have done extensive tracing of our family tree.
The names are Rodgers and Houston and I have been able to trace the Rodgers line back to Glenwhirry in Antrim about 1820 and until they came here in 1859.
Needless to say, here was the usual religious conflict when the Rodgers married into the Smyths. from County Cavan who had also moved to Garngad.
Interestingly its worth noting that the Garngad immigrants came from the 9 Ulster counties and
provided the labour to build the famous Monkland Canal in the early 19 C. Another branch of our family,the McCanns, laboured on the Canal and later became Canal Boatmen . This became the family occupation eventually moving on to become Seamen and Sailors.

The family were hit badly by illness during the forties and had to move quickly from their beloved Garngad to become tenanct of one of the first Corporation New Biulds. this was a 4 APT with a Bathroom in Stamford Street and my cousin Jane Rodgers ( McAnea) is Jessie Connolly's best pal.

If cousin Patricia is interested we have a family site called Rodgers Rus that gives in depth info and up to date news of the family.

Jane Duncanson

Posted by: Paul Smith 30th Dec 2008, 09:53am

I have been a previous visitor to these boards but this is the first time I have come across this extremely informative and very interesting topic - marvellous work Mr Kelly.

Through family research I have found that my maternal lines are linked to Ireland but unable to verify exactly from which areas. My grandfather's surname was O'Byrne - and from the mid 1800's these O'Byrnes lived in the Partick area of Glasgow and worked in the shipyards close to the Anderson Street area. My grandmother's surname was Bell and again her family moved across from Ireland in the very late 1800's to Whiteinch and were also involved in the shipyards.

The only links I have found to specific locations in Ireland are photographs of my mother on holiday there probably before she got married and inscribed on the back of the photos are Randalstown and Toome - but which of the families (O'Byrne / Bell) would be likely to have come from there???

If the names have already been mentioned in a previous post then just refer me to the post #.

Thanks.
plays54.

Posted by: Michael Reilly 2nd Jan 2009, 09:35pm

Hi Paul,

It's great reading your take on the Irish in Glasgow, and of the many Irish names that have infiltrated into the general population. It just gives you an idea how massive the wave of Irish migration was at this time.

My bag is the coatbridge Irish genealogy project, which I've seen you've made reference to in previous posts.

Maybe we can have a chat sometime.

Regards,

Michael

Posted by: Guest martin * 3rd Jan 2009, 03:06am

my great great great grandfather was michael connelly born 1829/30,died 1901 ,dont know where he was born.he was married to honor de coursey.they are buried in ballengeech(forgive the spelling)cemetery next to stirling castle alongside there son(great great grandfather) michael.cant get any further back than michael and honor,dont know if they were immigrants or born here although the time line would suggest he was 17/18 years old during the famine and maybe came over then.each generation from him down to my father was born in the stirling area,i know we are protestant as far back as my great grandfather,also michael who is buried in the cambusbarron area of stirling,can anyone lend any further info??

Posted by: GG 4th Jan 2009, 09:26am

Five guest posts above just unmoderated - sorry the moderation queue is not being flagged up properly so I missed them over the last two weeks.

GG.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 4th Jan 2009, 04:41pm

Hi Guest John

My greatgrandmother was Mary Anne Bradley from Meenbane, Stranorlar in east Donegal.


Hi Michael Reilly.

You can join the GG Boards and communicate with me initially using the Personal Message (PM) facility if you want.


Hi Jane Duncanson.

I had noticed your recent post on the ancestry.com boards about your Protestant Rodgers ancestors from County Antrim meeting up with your Catholic Smyth ancestors from County Cavan in Garngad, Glasgow in the 19th century.


http://boards.ancestry.com/topics.cemetery.uk.ireland.ireland/260.2.1/mb.ashx


Rogers/Rodgers and Smith/Smyth are both very common surnames in Ulster.

In east Ulster (Antrim/Down/Armagh) most people with the surname Rodgers/Rogers are descendants of 17th Scottish/English Protestant Planters. In west Ulster (Derry/Donegal/Tyrone) most people with the surname Rodgers/Rogers are members of the native Irish (including Gallowglass) McRory/McCrory/McGrory family many of whom Anglicised their surnames as Rodgers/Rogers in the years following the Plantations.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=160394

Most of the Smiths in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish/English Protestant Planters. However, most of the Smiths in south Ulster (around County Cavan) are native Irish. The McGowans (MacGabhainn in Irish Gaelic) are a large native Irish family form southwest Ulster and north Connacht. Most of the native Irish McGowans in south Ulster (especially in County Cavan) Anglicised their surname as Smith or Smyth in the years following the Plantations. The native Irish McGowans of west Ulster (County Donegal) and north Connacht (Sligo/Leitrim) did not Anglicise their surnames as Smith and continued to use the spelling McGowan. There is also an unrelated Scottish McGowan (MacGobhainn in Scottish Gaelic) family and some of the McGowans in east Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters. The Scottish surnames of McGowan (MacGobhainn) and McGow (MacGobha) were also both sometimes Anglicised as Smith.

McCann is a native Irish surname from County Armagh.

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/


I have written a lot about the Houston/Huston surname in Ulster in previous posts. eg

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6148&view=findpost&p=197089


My mum - Ann Connolly - remembers the Rodgers from Stamford Street in Barrowfield. You all attended St Anne's Primary School in the northern part of Bridgeton next to the Gallowgate and my mum remembers her younger sister Jessie Connolly being very close to Jane Rodgers.

Posted by: Guest 5th Jan 2009, 10:19am

QUOTE (jane duncanson @ 28th Dec 2008, 12:44am) *
My family are from Garngad in Glasgow and I have done extensive tracing of our family tree.
The names are Rodgers and Houston and I have been able to trace the Rodgers line back to Glenwhirry in Antrim about 1820 and until they came here in 1859.
Needless to say, here was the usual religious conflict when the Rodgers married into the Smyths. from County Cavan who had also moved to Garngad.
Interestingly its worth noting that the Garngad immigrants came from the 9 Ulster counties and
provided the labour to build the famous Monkland Canal in the early 19 C. Another branch of our family,the McCanns, laboured on the Canal and later became Canal Boatmen . This became the family occupation eventually moving on to become Seamen and Sailors. J

The family were hit badly by illness during the forties and had to move quickly from their beloved Garngad to become tenanct of one of the first Corporation New Biulds. this was a 4 APT with a Bathroom in Stamford Street and my cousin Jane Rodgers ( McAnea) is Jessie Connolly's best pal.

If cousin Patricia is interested we have a family site called Rodgers Rus that gives in depth info and up to date news of the family.
Jane Duncanson

Hi Jane,

Coming from Coatbridge, I was interested to note that your ancestors worked on the Monkland Canal, which used to run through the centre of the town, and was sadly mostly filled in during the 60's and 70's, although there are two vestiges that still remain near Drumpellier and Faskine.

The canal was completed in the late 1790's, and it's construction was overseen by the inventor, James Watt. There's no doubt that seasonal Irish workers, mainly navvies would have been heavily employed in it's construction, I would imagine, that your Irish ancestors who would have come over much later, would have been working on the canal when it was well established, probably mid to late 1800's. Would that be correct ?

Another reason, for The Canal's demise, mainly in Coatbridge, is that after falling into disrepair in the 1930's, it had outlived it's usefulness, as it no longer required to ship coals and other iron related products into Glasgow, and of course was superseded by the railways.
It had also become very dangerous. Many young people and adults sometimes worse for wear were drowned. it had also become stagnant, dead animals floating around etc and a decision was made to close it and bury it underground. It's quite sad also, becaues if someone had the foresight to develop, clean and upgrade it, it would have become a marvellous asset to the town, to have a canal coarsing through it's centre, nice walks, boat trips in the summer etc

Posted by: pr77 30th Jan 2009, 07:15pm

QUOTE (jane duncanson @ 28th Dec 2008, 12:32am) *
My family are from Garngad in Glasgow and I have done extensive tracing of our family tree.
The names are Rodgers and Houston and I have been able to trace the Rodgers line back to Glenwhirry in Antrim about 1820 and until they came here in 1859.
Needless to say, here was the usual religious conflict when the Rodgers married into the Smyths. from County Cavan who had also moved to Garngad.
Interestingly its worth noting that the Garngad immigrants came from the 9 Ulster counties and
provided the labour to build the famous Monkland Canal in the early 19 C. Another branch of our family,the McCanns, laboured on the Canal and later became Canal Boatmen . This became the family occupation eventually moving on to become Seamen and Sailors.

The family were hit badly by illness during the forties and had to move quickly from their beloved Garngad to become tenanct of one of the first Corporation New Biulds. this was a 4 APT with a Bathroom in Stamford Street and my cousin Jane Rodgers ( McAnea) is Jessie Connolly's best pal.

If cousin Patricia is interested we have a family site called Rodgers Rus that gives in depth info and up to date news of the family.

Jane Duncanson


Posted by: pr77 30th Jan 2009, 07:18pm

Hello Jane,

I would be interested in accessing the Rodgers Rus website, thanks.

Tricia

Posted by: Laura Smith 13th Feb 2009, 01:59pm

My G-G-G Grandfather was James Ponsonby (son of John Ponsonby & Mary Paton/Patton) from Donegal. James married Mary McMurray/McMurrich in Glasgow, and their daughter Mary Ponsonby married Patrick McCarthy. Their daughter, Catherine (Kate) McCarthy was my Great Grandmother (she married William Shiach).

Jane from Canada also contacted me and we are indeed related (if very distantly!). I find the Ponsonby family fascinating and would love to find out if I have any relations in Donegal, and also if there is any evidence (graves, etc) of my ancestors there.

Any other info greatly appreciated!!

Laura

Posted by: weesue 13th Feb 2009, 03:20pm

Hi Laura
have you heard of http://scotfamtree.11.forumer.com/index.php
They are great for helpin you to find long lost ancestors...

Posted by: marg maxwell 14th Feb 2009, 08:13pm

i am loofing for records of our gtgtgrandad william maxwell died in the poorhouse cty of
glasgow 1879 any help would be welcome thanks marg maxwell

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 15th Feb 2009, 03:47pm

Re: Common Irish surnames in Scotland.

Hows about SCOT(T) forename Kenneth ???

Ok when he came over it wouldn't have been so common !!

Posted by: *Mary* 24th Feb 2009, 10:14pm

QUOTE (MLC @ 29th May 2008, 06:12am) *
Paul

I've just come across this interesting conversation and hope you may be able to make a comment on the Weir/Ware surname. My ancestors appear to have "flip-flopped" between the use of these names in census forms and various certificates. Until we began Scottish research we were unaware of the Ware surname. As far as we were concerned our ancestors were and are Weirs! My ancestor's parents were "Ware" on their death certs in 1898 & 1900. His children are recorded as Weirs on birth certs commencing 1893. Can you make any comments? This family lived in Greenock and I believe they came from Co. Armagh.
Hello MLC My Father was Named Weir His father on birth certificate was Ware born Greenock his Father born Armargh was Ware and his father was born Ireland was Ware ...just wondering if we are related .............Mary Weir/Ware smile.gif

Posted by: Paul Kelly 28th Feb 2009, 11:46am

QUOTE (Laura Smith @ 13th Feb 2009, 03:46pm) *
My G-G-G Grandfather was James Ponsonby (son of John Ponsonby & Mary Paton/Patton) from Donegal. James married Mary McMurray/McMurrich in Glasgow, and their daughter Mary Ponsonby married Patrick McCarthy. Their daughter, Catherine (Kate) McCarthy was my Great Grandmother (she married William Shiach).

Jane from Canada also contacted me and we are indeed related (if very distantly!). I find the Ponsonby family fascinating and would love to find out if I have any relations in Donegal, and also if there is any evidence (graves, etc) of my ancestors there.

Any other info greatly appreciated!!

Laura

Laura, if I hear anything else about the Ponsonbys I will let you know.

Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 28th Feb 2009, 11:47am

As I mentioned in post #4 of this topic, most of the Irish immigrants who settled in Scotland in the mid/late 19th century came from the northern counties of Ireland - Ulster - and a siginificant minority of these Irish immigrants were Protestants. Most of the historians who have studied the Irish experience in Scotland estimate that around a quarter of the 19th century Irish immigrants were Protestant, and in the early days of Irish immigration (1820s, 1830s, 1840s and 1850s), it was probably as high as a third. From the 1860s onwards, Irish immigrants to Scotland were overwhelmingly, though by no means exclusively, Catholic.

Protestant Irish immigrants were much more quickly assimilated into Scottish society than their Catholic counterparts as they shared a common religion with the native Scots - Presbyterianism - and many had Scottish surnames as they were largely descendants of the 17th century Plantation of Ulster (Ulster-Scots or Scots-Irish). The many genealogical inquiries which I have received from people over the past few years have made me realise that many Glaswegians have some Protestant Irish ancestry. Many people are surprised when they learn they have Protestant Irish ancestors. I include myself in that. Prior to studying my own family history, I had been led to believe that my Protestant maternal grandmother - Sarah Lawson McKenzie - was of purely Scottish ancestry. However, once I researched my family tree, I discovered that 2 of Sarah's grandparents (my greatgreatgrandparents) were Irish Protestants from Belfast. The Protestant Irish immigrant experience in Glasgow has been largely overlooked probably because they were quickly assimilated into Scottish society. One of Glasgow's most famous sons, Thomas Lipton, was of Protestant Irish ancestry.

On a different note, Irish immigrants to Scotland didn't only settle in Glasgow, they also settled in many of the towns and villages of west central Scotland and even in in the east of Scotland eg in the Cowgate and Grassmarket areas of Edinburgh, parts of Fife and especially in Dundee. The Lochee area of Dundee was famous for its large Irish immigrant population. In fact, by the mid 19th century, the part of Scotland with the highest concentration of Irish immigrants was Dundee. According to the 1851 census, 18.9% of the population of Dundee was Irish born compared to 18.2% of the population of Glasgow. There were 14889 and 59801 Irish born people in Dundee and Glasgow respectively in 1851. It should be noted these 18.9% and 18.2% figures seriously underestimate the number of 'Irish households' in Dundee and Glasgow in 1851 as the many Scottish born children of these Irish immigrants were recorded as Scottish (and rightly so) in the census. It is likely that around a third of the households in Glasgow and Dundee were headed by an Irish born person and that around a third of the people in the 2 cities were Irish or Scots of immediate Irish ancestry (ie Irish parentage) in 1851. The most Irish place in Britain according to the 1851 census was the English city of Liverpool where 22.3% (or 83813 people) were Irish born.

According to the 1871 census, the place in Scotland with the highest concentration of Irish immigrants was now Dumbarton, followed by Greenock. According to the 1871 census, 17.7% of the population of Dumbarton was Irish born, 16.6% in Greenock, 14.3% in Glasgow, 14.2% in Airdrie, 11.9% in Dundee and 9.8% in Paisley. As before, these figures seriously underestimate the number of 'Irish households' in 1871 as the many Scottish born children of these Irish immigrants were recorded as Scottish in the census. In addition, by 1871, there were now many households headed by Scottish born people of immediate Irish ancestry.

I got these 1851 and 1871 figures from the book 'The Irish In Britain, 1815-1939' by Roger Swift, Sheridan Gilley and Colin Pooley, extracts of which appear on the internet. A noteable omission from the 1851 and 1871 figures was Coatbridge, the north Lanarkshire town which is famous for having many people of Irish ancestry. I am not sure if the authors of the book inadvertantly overlooked Coatbridge or if the figure for Airdrie includes Coatbridge. I know Airdrie had a large Irish immigrant community in its own right. I have read elsewhere that the percentage of Irish born people in Coatbridge was around 30% in the mid/late 1800s (and around 60% of the population of Coatbridge at that time was said to Irish or Scots of Irish parentage). I am not sure of the exact year for these figures as I read the article about Coatbridge some time back. Coatbridge, like other parts of Scotland, received both Catholic and Protestant Irish immigrants, though a majority were undoubtedly Catholic. The Gartsherrie and Sunnyside areas in northern Coatbridge received many Protestant Irish immigrants most of whom worked for the firm of Bairds. In contrast, the Dundyvan, Whifflet and Rosehall areas in southern Coatbridge had large Catholic Irish populations. This was different from the settlement patterns of Irish immigrants in Glasgow, where Catholic and Protestant Irish immigrants often settled side by side in districts such as Gorbals, Garngad, Calton, Bridgeton, Townhead, Cowcaddens, Anderston and Govan. Protestant Irish immigrants often spent less time in these areas before moving on to 'better' Glasgow areas.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 28th Feb 2009, 02:09pm

Paul you must be a member of the Magic Circle.
you're a real wizard. Great stuff man.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 1st Mar 2009, 08:06am

Further to my post of yesterday (post #287), I have since learned that the percentage of Irish born in Coatbridge according to the 1851 census was an incredible 35.8%. This is a much higher percentage than the 22.3%, 18.9% and 18.2% for Liverpool, Dundee and Glasgow respectively in 1851. So, in percentage terms, Coatbridge was probably the most Irish place in Great Britain in 1851. Of course, London had the largest number of Irish born residents in absolute terms in 1851 (108548 Irish born), followed by Liverpool (83813 Irish born) and Glasgow (59801 Irish born).

As I mentioned yesterday, I got the 1851 and 1871 'percentages of Irish born' from pages 66 and 67 of the book ''The Irish In Britain, 1815-1939'', which appears online.

At the bottom of page 63 of the book, Colin Pooley explains that the 1851 Irish-born analysis concentrated on the large British urban centres - such as Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee and Paisley in Scotland - and that smaller towns with large Irish communities - such as Coatbridge, Airdrie, Greenock, and Dumbarton - had been excluded from the 1851 analysis. While some towns had been added to the 1871 Irish born analysis - Greenock, Airdrie and Dumbarton for example - Coatbridge was still not included in the 1871 analysis. Had Coatbridge been included, it would undoubtedly have topped the 'percentage Irish born' list in both 1851 and 1871.

Having said that, the small mining village of Croy in North Lanarkshire was known to have had an even a higher percentage of Irish born residents in the mid/late 19th century.

Posted by: drumlad 4th Mar 2009, 04:55pm

my wifes name was darragh,some changed it toi darroch,they are from colraine,in the north

Posted by: Paul Kelly 4th Mar 2009, 09:20pm

Hi Drumlad.

Darragh is a native Irish surname from north east Ulster (County Antrim). Darroch is an unrelated Scottish surname with origins in more than one part of Scotland. However, as is often the case with surnames, things are a bit more complicated than that.

During the 17th century Scottish Protestant Plantations of Ulster, Scottish Darrochs settled in Ulster and adopted the Irish spelling of Darragh. Furthermore, 19th century Irish Darragh immigrants to Scotland adopted the Scottish spelling of Darroch.

It seems that most of the Darraghs in Ulster are of native Irish extraction, though a significant minority are of Scottish Darroch stock. In addition, I understand that a few of the native Irish Darragh families further Anglicised their surnames as Oakes.

Coleraine is in east Derry next to County Antrim and your wife's Darragh ancestors could be of native Irish Darragh stock or Scottish Planter Darroch extraction.

There are other Scottish and Irish surnames which behave like this such as the Scottish McCulloch and the Irish McCullough or McCullagh, the Irish McLaughlin and the Scottish McLachlan or McLauchlan and the Scottish McMillan and the Irish McMullan or McMullen.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6148&view=findpost&p=138847

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6148&view=findpost&p=148826

Paul

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/

Posted by: mamie 1 4th Mar 2009, 10:24pm

Paul, what part of Ireland does the names Mcmunigle Coprrigan and Boyle. Where do you get all your information?

Posted by: mamie 1 4th Mar 2009, 10:27pm

I'll do that again!! the names McMunigl Corrigan and Boyle what part of Ireland does these names come from?

Posted by: Paul Kelly 5th Mar 2009, 06:44am

McMonigle or McMonagle (or any other variant spelling), Boyle and Corrigan are all native Gaelic Irish surnames associated with west Ulster. Boyle and McMonigle are strongly associated with County Donegal and Corrigan is commonly found in the neighbouring counties of Tyrone and Fermanagh. McGonigle or McGonagle is also a native Gaelic Irish surname associated with Counties Donegal and Derry

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/

Below is a very interesting website about a McMonagle family from the Tyrone/Donegal border area who settled in the Garngad district of Glasgow in the late 19th century.

http://www.themcmonagles.com/whence.asp

Posted by: Oor Wullie 5th Mar 2009, 08:40am

I wonder if Paul could tell me where in Ireland I would be likely to find information about the names McGuire , Glatley or any of their variations.

Posted by: mamie 1 5th Mar 2009, 09:05am

thanks Paul you are a gem of information!!!!!!!! I had relations who lived in Garngad , a way back many many years ago ,their names Gillespie Purvis Boyle, My father would take us all up to visit on a sunday, and the pastime for the adults was playing cards, I loved those sundays, as a child I looked forward to it all week. Thanks again Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 5th Mar 2009, 06:37pm

Thanks Mamie. Gillespie is a surname which I have written about before in this topic. In fact, if you are wondering if a surname has been written about before then you can type the surname in the search box near the bottom of this page and you will get a list of all the posts in this topic which mention the surname.

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 19th Dec 2007, 12:34pm) *
Mac Giolla Easpaig or Mac Giolla Easpuig is an Irish Gaelic surname originating in west Ulster (Donegal, Derry) and means 'son of the servant of the bishop'. This surname has been Anglicised as Gillespie. Mac Gille Easbuig is a Scottish surname which arose in several parts of Scotland and also means 'son of the servant of the bishop'. This surname has also been Anglicised as Gillespie. While most of the Gillespies in west Ulster are native Irish, it seems that most of the Gillespies in east Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters. In addition, some of the Gillespies in Scotland today are descendants of 19th century Irish immigrants from Ulster.


Hi Oor Wullie.

I have never come across the Glately surname before but I have heard of the native Gaelic Irish surname of Gately - O'Gatlaoich - from County Roscommon and east Galway in the west of Ireland.

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/

I have written about the Irish surname of Maguire or McGuire before in this topic and in the topic 'Are The Scots Really Irish?' Maguire - Mag Uidhir - is a native Gaelic Irish surname from south west Ulster and the Maguires were the most powerful family in County Fermanagh in pre-Plantation times. It seems that there was also once an obscure small unrelated Scottish McGuire family who were a sept of the Scottish clan McQuarrie. However, it is undoubtedly the case that most, if not all, of the McGuires in Scotland today are descendants of 19th century native Irish Maguire immigrants from south west Ulster.

The McGuire surname is similar to the McDade and McInally surnames.

McDaid - Mac Daibheid or MacDaibheid or McDevitt or McDavitt - is a native Gaelic Irish surname from west Ulster (east Donagal, west Derry and west Tyrone). It seems that there was also once an obscure small unrelated Scottish McDade family who were a sept of the Scottish clan Davidson. However, it is without doubt the case that most, if not all, of the McDades in Scotland today are descendants of 19th century native Irish McDaid immigrants from west Ulster.

Similarly, McAnally is a native Irish surname from Ulster. There was also once an obscure small unrelated Scottish McInally family who were a sept of the Scottish clan Buchanan. However, it is undoubtedly the case that most, if not all, of the McInallys in Scotland today are descendants of 19th century native Irish McAnally and McNally immigrants. There was quite a long discussion about the McInally surname around posts #142 to #149 of the topic 'Family Research' started by RonD in the Family History forum.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5272&view=findpost&p=178332

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5272&view=findpost&p=178541

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 5th Mar 2009, 06:57pm

Hi Paul, ya wee wizard,

would you please try this one:

Is there a connection between McInally and the unusual name Mignonelli ?
....if I've spelled the last three letters right !!

Thanks.
Heaps of praise.

Posted by: tamhickey 6th Mar 2009, 02:23am

Fascinating subject Paul, and one you seem to have mastered extremely well. I have no idea where the origin of my own surname comes from, but it seems a common enough name in Ireland to this day, less so in Scotland. My mother's family name was McSorley and again, I'm not sure of the derivation of that name. I really ought to do some research, but just wondered if you could help?

Posted by: Paul Kelly 6th Mar 2009, 03:27pm

QUOTE (tamhickey @ 6th Mar 2009, 04:10am) *
I really ought to do some research


Once you start it can become quite addictive. Enjoyable nonetheless. And you can do most of it on the internet.
Thanks for your comments Tam and I'll see what I can find on the Hickey surname.
Thanks for your kind comments as well THH.