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> Scottish Independence, About voting yes/no
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DannyH
post 14th Jun 2018, 11:24am
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QUOTE (ashfield @ 14th Jun 2018, 08:56am) *
Danny, I’m a bit unsure why your post is here, is it about the performance of the current Scottish Government? The SNP want Independence for Scotland and they are currently the party in power at the Scottish Parliament, it does not mean that they would automatically be in power for ever if Scotland was independent.

I currently support the SNP as the party in Scotland most able to deliver the best policies for the majority of those living here, but that could change. My allegiance to another party ended when it lost it’s ethos and became more about those running it than those it was being run for.

As it happens I don’t support the SNP policy on alcohol minimum pricing, but this is not the place to discuss that as a thread already exists elsewhere. Neither can I offer an opinion on the case you mention as, without knowing all the circumstances, it would be inappropriate to comment. A link to the story might have helped.

Hello Ashfield

Let me start by saying it is refreshing to get a reasoned well thought out response on this topic. My thanks for that.

I agree the SNP want Independence for Scotland. I did too at the time of the Independence Referendum, even although I had misgivings regarding the SNP's lack of credibility on some of the major issues, such as currency.

When the battle was lost the SNP's stance was that the public had been lied to by the media. Only a few weeks ago, Alec Salmond blamed the BBC for the outcome.

If we go back to the origin of this topic, it was started on the 8th of January 2013, and the title was Scottish Independence, about voting YES/NO.

The referendum has long gone, so this topic has degenerated into a wild west show.

I have never felt the need to be loyal to any political party. Having worked at Westminster, I learned more about politics and politicians, during my five years there.

The one thing I learned was that you lose the argument when you don't stick to the issue concerned.

So take it from me, Nicola Sturgeon is splitting the Scottish electorate, by her continous references to Scotland needing to be part of the EU. Independence and the EU are two seperate issues.

When she talks about Independence, she always brings the EU and EU citizens into the debate. Having said that, I notice she has asked the party faithful to stopped being obsessed with getting another Referendum date fixed. The reason is obvious. Brexit has to be sorted out, one way or another.

She also repeatedly states that we need more younger people coming into the country because we have an ageing population. In a world where it has become widly accepted that this world will not be able to sustain human life if the world population keeps on growing, I suggest that we should be showing the world that we can survive and prosper without the need for an open dooors policy.

Regarding my reference to alcohol, the reason I referred to it on this topic, is because this topic has become a forum for any political issue in Scotland. It is relevant, in the sense that when people come to vote, this issue will matter to some of the electorate.

Regarding the incident with the woman five times over the legal limit, I read it in the Evening Times within the last week. I included it in my previous post to highlight the point that on the one hand it is easy to raise taxation, but it is too much bother to make sure the law addresses the problem of people under the influence of alcohol, killing and maiming people.

Thanks again for your reasoned response.

Danny

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DannyH
post 14th Jun 2018, 11:46am
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Hi Ashfield

I meant to add that one of the issues which will have to be addressed if Scotland gets Independence, is the issue of the Border between Scotland and England. Will the Scottish electorate want to apply for EU membership? I am sure this will depend on how, or if, the issue of the Border in Ireland has been resolved.

Danny
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bilbo.s
post Y'day, 05:07pm
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This was a comment written under a post on Twitter, which I thought was a good explanation of Scotland's place in the scheme of things (the union):

A nation not getting the government it votes for is not the same as a region/city/town/individual not getting the government it voted for. Every other 'normal' nation in the world has a government which is democratically elected by the people of that country - except Scotland.

Ruth Davidson infamously stated that she often doesn't get the government she votes for. As if Ruth Davidson not getting the government she voted for is the same as a nation.

People need to remember what the UK is - it is not a single unitary country. It is one of the most unique sovereign states in the world - it is a constitutional monarchy, a multi-national union. In many ways it is the original EU (although far less democratic to the smaller nations). We are not and never have been a single 'nation'. Even the UK's application to join the UN was as two countries, a principality and a province. In no way can this be described as a single country.

It is the normal state of affairs for REGIONS with greater population densities to be able to outvote smaller regions. In Korea, most people live in and around the Seoul area, in Taiwan most live in and around the Taipei area, in Denmark most live in and around the Copenhagen area. This is just a fact of life - because people are drawn to where most career/educational/housing/entertainment opportunities are - not to mention better infrastructure and transportation. The difference with these countries is that they are single nation states - we are not.

Scotland is an ancient nation with it's own separate legal system, a capital city, a unique cultural identity which is celebrated around the world and our history dates back 10,000 years. We are not a region or a county of England. We are one half of the UK, one of only two signatories to the acts and treaties of Union 1707 - without Yorkshire there is still a UK, without Scotland there is no United Kingdom. Under the current constitutional settlement, England's massive population means that it is the only independent functioning nation within the UK - everything in the UK is governed to suit the needs of the nation of England. This is why most people around the world see the UK and England as essentially the same thing.

Scotland, despite being a co-signatory of this union is not an equal partner. Indeed it is mathematically impossible for us to be an equal partner. An economic and political union between two nations where there is such a huge difference in population was always going to be unfair on the smaller nation. This is where Scotland's democratic deficit shows. We are a nation, but the only one which rarely gets the government it votes for.

Your argument is actually the normal state of affairs for a nation. My argument, however, is not the normal state of affairs hence why many of us wish for Scotland to be governed like a normal nation. Independence is actually a normal concept.
P.S Did it ever occur to you that one of the reasons Scotland is so sparsely populated outside of the central belt is because the UK Home Office has always had an immigration system designed to suit the needs of England. Scotland suffers from chronic depopulation we need more people to come to Scotland to invest, grow our economy and have more people working here. Over the next 25 years our working age population will grow by a mere 1% while our pension age population will grow by 25% in the same time period. This is an economic disaster waiting to hit Scotland but we cannot do anything about it, because England's needs will always be met first.


--------------------
Just because we disagree doesn't mean I don't like you, and just because I don't like you doesn't mean I disagree with you.
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DannyH
post Y'day, 07:48pm
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QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 20th Jun 2018, 06:07pm) *
This was a comment written under a post on Twitter, which I thought was a good explanation of Scotland's place in the scheme of things (the union):

A nation not getting the government it votes for is not the same as a region/city/town/individual not getting the government it voted for. Every other 'normal' nation in the world has a government which is democratically elected by the people of that country - except Scotland.

Ruth Davidson infamously stated that she often doesn't get the government she votes for. As if Ruth Davidson not getting the government she voted for is the same as a nation.

People need to remember what the UK is - it is not a single unitary country. It is one of the most unique sovereign states in the world - it is a constitutional monarchy, a multi-national union. In many ways it is the original EU (although far less democratic to the smaller nations). We are not and never have been a single 'nation'. Even the UK's application to join the UN was as two countries, a principality and a province. In no way can this be described as a single country.

It is the normal state of affairs for REGIONS with greater population densities to be able to outvote smaller regions. In Korea, most people live in and around the Seoul area, in Taiwan most live in and around the Taipei area, in Denmark most live in and around the Copenhagen area. This is just a fact of life - because people are drawn to where most career/educational/housing/entertainment opportunities are - not to mention better infrastructure and transportation. The difference with these countries is that they are single nation states - we are not.

Scotland is an ancient nation with it's own separate legal system, a capital city, a unique cultural identity which is celebrated around the world and our history dates back 10,000 years. We are not a region or a county of England. We are one half of the UK, one of only two signatories to the acts and treaties of Union 1707 - without Yorkshire there is still a UK, without Scotland there is no United Kingdom. Under the current constitutional settlement, England's massive population means that it is the only independent functioning nation within the UK - everything in the UK is governed to suit the needs of the nation of England. This is why most people around the world see the UK and England as essentially the same thing.

Scotland, despite being a co-signatory of this union is not an equal partner. Indeed it is mathematically impossible for us to be an equal partner. An economic and political union between two nations where there is such a huge difference in population was always going to be unfair on the smaller nation. This is where Scotland's democratic deficit shows. We are a nation, but the only one which rarely gets the government it votes for.

Your argument is actually the normal state of affairs for a nation. My argument, however, is not the normal state of affairs hence why many of us wish for Scotland to be governed like a normal nation. Independence is actually a normal concept.
P.S Did it ever occur to you that one of the reasons Scotland is so sparsely populated outside of the central belt is because the UK Home Office has always had an immigration system designed to suit the needs of England. Scotland suffers from chronic depopulation we need more people to come to Scotland to invest, grow our economy and have more people working here. Over the next 25 years our working age population will grow by a mere 1% while our pension age population will grow by 25% in the same time period. This is an economic disaster waiting to hit Scotland but we cannot do anything about it, because England's needs will always be met first.


Bilbo

How about posting facts about the real world.

The EU does not look on Scotland as an independent country. During the Scotland Independence referendum, EU citizens residing in Scotland were allowed to vote. So don't give us this holier than thou garbage.

Korea is mentioned as if it is one country. You obviously are much younger than me. Some of my generation had to go and fight to prevent Communism from spreading. It seems the numpty who wrote the above, seems to have forgotten there is no one country named Korea. There is South Korea and North Korea. There are thousands of dead Allied troops lying in their graves beacause of this division.

Taiwan exists in its present state because there was a war in China. Those who fought against Communism fled from mainland China to Taiwan. That is why so many people live there, otherwise the population there would be much smaller.

Scotland is no different from any other country in the world. Cities throughout the world become cities because through time their population grows. Take Canada for instance. Do you think Toronto, Montreal and other Canadian cities would have been so big, or even existed if Europeans hadn't taken Canada from the indigenous people?

Would Glasgow have been so big if it hadn't been for the Irish and Highland famines? What about the affect the Industrial Revolution had on population growth of cities. Factories needed workers.

Your wise man says Scotland needs more people to come here. Putting the NHS aside, what kind of jobs will they be filling? Most of the manufactured products we buy come from the Far East, and mainly China.

Here is news for you. We have an ageing population just now. There is now concern that large numbers of children living here are obese. The numbers of them having mental problems because of computer games, is so large, it has now been officially defined as a mental condition, to be treated on the NHS.

In my humble opinion, this is not unique to Scotland. In short, the next generation of youngsters throughout the world are not going to survive past their adolesence. So there will be no elderly people around to cause any financial hardship on the world. I think that in about ten years time, the Internet will be so powerful that civilisation as we know it will collapse. It will be a mad house.

By the way, please tell the wise man that Scotland voted against Independence. The SNP blew the opportunity it had, but now weakly claims we were lied to. I voted for Independence, but I have lost faith in the SNP.

As you are a resident of Spain, much of what the wise man has said about the relationship Scotland has with the UK Government, could be applied to the relationship Catalonia and the Basque people have with the Spanish Government. Of course I forgot, protocol prevents you from commenting on this issue. Your main concern is that National flags must be flown in the correct order. Doesn't matter to you that the Spanish Police treated the Catalonians violently.

Danny Harris
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Dykejumper
post Y'day, 08:34pm
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Govanhill has approx 4000 immigrants, I doubt even the Selfie Queen would argue that they contribute
to the economy.
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JAGZ1876
post Y'day, 09:15pm
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QUOTE (Dykejumper @ 20th Jun 2018, 09:34pm) *
Govanhill has approx 4000 immigrants, I doubt even the Selfie Queen would argue that they contribute
to the economy.


Not one contributes to the economy?

You mean not one buys a pint of milk or a loaf of bread DJ? unsure.gif
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