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> Are The Scots Really Irish? Dalriada, Gallowglass, The historical links between Ulster and Argyll
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Paul Kelly
post 3rd Nov 2007, 09:00am
Post #76


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Hi again Liquis.

I have been thinking about what I said at the end of my last post. MacAnGalloglaigh (McGallogly) means 'the son of the Galloglass' and this surname is usually Anglicised as Gallogly or Gollogly.
The Mac an Galloglaigh family were a Gallowglass family from Argyll who setted in County Donegal in the 14th century. It is likely that Galloglys were related to the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay, like so many of the other Galloglass families, and were direct descendants of Somerled. The Gallogly surname is sometimes further Anglicised as 'English' (see post #11). Incidentally, I'm sure some of the Scottish Gallowglasses who settled in Ireland were direct descendants of Colla Uais and not Somerled.

I have been looking through some records and the Gallogly, Gollogly and English surnames are very rare in Donegal. In fact, they are more commonly found in the neighbouring counties of Ulster and north Connacht.

Gallagher (O'Gallchobhair) is the most common surname in County Donegal. I think it is quite likely that most members of the Gallogly family in Donegal adopted the popular Gallagher surname. The Galloglys of Donegal were probably absorbed by the large Gallagher family of Donegal.

Having said all that Liquis, I am not sure whether you are a O'Gallchobhair or a MacAnGalloglaigh. What do you think?

Check out the end of this website. It discusses the Y-chromosome DNA of Niall Noigiallach (Niall of the Nine Hostages), Colla Uais and Somerled.

http://www.isogg.org/famousdna.htm

It is a fascinating topic.

Paul


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*Liquis*
post 3rd Nov 2007, 03:02pm
Post #77






QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 3rd Nov 2007, 09:17 AM) *
Hi again Liquis.

I have been thinking about what I said at the end of my last post. MacAnGalloglaigh (McGallogly) means 'the son of the Galloglass' and this surname is usually Anglicised as Gallogly or Gollogly.
The Mac an Galloglaigh family were a Gallowglass family from Argyll who setted in County Donegal in the 14th century. It is likely that Galloglys were related to the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay, like so many of the other Galloglass families, and were direct descendants of Somerled. The Gallogly surname is sometimes further Anglicised as 'English' (see post #11). Incidentally, I'm sure some of the Scottish Gallowglasses who settled in Ireland were direct descendants of Colla Uais and not Somerled.

I have been looking through some records and the Gallogly, Gollogly and English surnames are very rare in Donegal. In fact, they are more commonly found in the neighbouring counties of Ulster and north Connacht.

Gallagher (O'Gallchobhair) is the most common surname in County Donegal. I think it is quite likely that most members of the Gallogly family in Donegal adopted the popular Gallagher surname. The Galloglys of Donegal were probably absorbed by the large Gallagher family of Donegal.

Having said all that Liquis, I am not sure whether you are a O'Gallchobhair or a MacAnGalloglaigh. What do you think?

Check out the end of this website. It discusses the Y-chromosome DNA of Niall Noigiallach (Niall of the Nine Hostages), Colla Uais and Somerled.

http://www.isogg.org/famousdna.htm

It is a fascinating topic.

Paul



Paul,

Thank you for your interest. It is a conundrum and I have been pouring over available information.
My theory is that we did adopt or someone made us adopt the Gallagher last name. Every time I compare the marker test, these are the current surnames with tests posted that we are probably related to right now (I only included tests that had only two marker mutations out of 24):

MacDonald
MacCabe
Roache/Roach/Roche
Tate
Quinn
Coll
MacCauley
O'Donnell
Sweeney

I read further that the MacDonald DNA project on Colla Uias is a collection of modern tests distilled to make Colla's markers. It was pointed out that this was really a collection of Dalriada markers as opposed to a single person. My relative who donated his genetic material matched exactly except for one marker at the rate of two mutations. It is the 385a. "Colla's" is a value of 11. Ours is a 9. This is also a mystery in itself because every test I have come across is either a 10 or 11. This 9 is disturbing me and I am wondering its meaning...

On a different note, I know my seventh generation surname IS Gallagher. I have documents and certificates from Donagal Ancestry which shows my USA immigrant relation, Hugh Gallagher, was born and Christened on August 10th, 1809 in Glenfanet Clondavaddog Church of Ireland. His father and mother, Patrick and Mary, were married on January 13, 1807. That is all the further I can go because of "the conditions which prevailed in Ireland in the late 18th and 19th centuries". I am at a dead end. I was hoping this marker test could help me reconnect up. However as one can see, it raises more questions.

Now the question is, if we were Gallowglass, were we MacAnGallogly? Or were we another Gallowglass:

First Tier: MackSweeney, MacDonald, MacSheehy, MacDougal, MacCabe, MacRoy

Lesser Known: MacAulay, MacSorely, MacNeill, MacGreal, MacAnGhear, MacAnGalloglaigh, MacClean, MacAilin, MacCawell, MacCampbell, MacEllin, MacAlister, MacAlexander, Mac Phaidin
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Capone
post 3rd Nov 2007, 04:20pm
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Does anyone know the origin and meaning of the surname Wedemire ?
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Paul Kelly
post 3rd Nov 2007, 06:13pm
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Germany, no idea of meaning. Certainly no connection with Scotland or Ireland!


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Paul Kelly
post 15th Nov 2007, 06:02am
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In posts #56 and #57 I mentioned 12 common Irish surnames of Norman origins. Some other Irish surnames of Norman origins are Barrett, Costello, Cusack, Dalton, Dillon, Fitzgibbons, Fitzsimons, French, Grace, Jordan, Keating, Nugent, Plunkett, Purcell, Redmond, Roche, Savage and Tobin.

It is often assumed that the Fitzpatrick surname is also of Norman origin. However, it is actually the only Fitz surname that is of native Gaelic Irish origin - Mac Giolla Phadraig - meaning the son of the servant of St Patrick. See post #195 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'.


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Paul Kelly
post 3rd Dec 2007, 11:31am
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The Gallowglass

I want to update post #24 of this topic as I missed out a couple of surnames - McCoy and Gallogly - and I want to reclassify the McFadden surname given what I said about it in post #35 of this topic and in post #145 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'.

There seems to have been just over 20 Scottish Catholic Gallowglass (Galloglass) families from the south west Highlands of Scotland - Argyll - who settled in Ireland - mainly Ulster - in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries before the late 16th century Scottish Reformation. It is undoubtedly the case that these Galloglas families came originally from mainland Argyll (Kintytre, Knapdale, Glassary, Cowal and Lorn) and the surrounding southern Inner Hebridean islands (Islay, Jura, Colonsay, Gigha, Arran and Bute). This area of Scotland of course corresponds to what was once the ancient Scotti Kingdom of Dalriada (Dal Riata). In fact, many of the Gallowglas families seem to have come from southern Argyll (Kintyre, Islay, Arran). In addition, many of them seem to have been related to the McDonald family of Kintyre and Islay and were direct descendants of the 12th century King of Kintyre and the Southern Inner Hebrides - Somerled.

The following 10 Gallowglass surnames are now considered to be Irish surnames because these families seem to have relocated EN MASSE from Argyll to Ireland as Galloglass in the 14th and 15th centuries. People in Scotland today with these 10 surnames are almost certainly descendants of 19th century Catholic Irish immigrants.

Sweeney (Donegal), Coll (Donegal), Gallogly (Donegal), McCallion (Donegal, Derry), McRory or McCrory (sometimes Anglicised as Rogers or Rodgers) (Derry, Tyrone), McSorley (Tyrone), McGirr (sometimes Anglicised as Short or Shortt) (Tyrone, Armagh), McCabe (Cavan, Monaghan), McGreal (Mayo), Sheehy (Munster)

While some of the McRorys/McCrorys of Derry/Tyrone are of Galloglass origins, the others are in fact descended from a native Gaelic Irish family of the same name. The Gallowglass and native Gaelic Irish McRory families of Derry/Tyrone have become indistinguishable from one another, though experts seem to think that the native family probably outnumbered the Galloglass family and absorbed the Galloglas family into its ranks (see post #52).
There is also a small proviso about the McGirr surname (see post #45).

The next set of 11 Gallowglass surnames are still considered to be Scottish surnames as these families did NOT move EN MASSE from Scotland to Ireland. Only SOME members of these families relocated from Argyll to Ireland as Galloglass in the 14th and 15th centuries. Many remained in Scotland.

McDonald (usually spelt McDonnell in Ireland), McAlister (sometimes spelt McAllister in Ireland), McDougall (usually spelt McDowell in Ireland), McAulay (usually spelt McAuley or McCauley in Ireland), McKay (sometimes spelt McCoy in Ireland), McFadyen (usually spelt McFadden in Ireland), McLean (sometimes spelt McClean in Ireland), McIntyre (sometimes spelt McAteer in Ireland), McCallum (usually spelt McCollum in Ireland), McNeill and Campbell.

There are Catholics in Ulster today with these 11 surnames who are descendants of 14th/15th century Scottish Gallowglass settlers. In addition, there are also Protestants in Ulster today with these 11 surnames who are descendants of 17th century Scottish Planters.

While some of the Catholic McCauleys, McFaddens, McAteers/McIntyres, McCollums and Campbells in Ulster are of Galloglass origins, the others are in fact descended form native Gaelic Irish families of the same names. (In a similar way to the McRory family which I discussed earlier in the post).

While a few of the Protestant McDowells in Ulster are descendants of 17th century McDougall Planters from Argyll, most of them are in fact descended from 17th century McDowall Planters from Galloway. The McDougall family of Argyll and the McDowall family of Galloway are said to be unrelated. The Catholic McDowells in Ulster are descendants of 14th century McDougall Gallowglasses from Lorne in Argyll and it seems that most of them adopted the common Irish surname of Doyle. Doyle is a very common surname in the east of Ireland, though most of the Doyles in Ireland are not of Galloglass McDowell (McDougall) origin but are of direct Viking extraction.

There are 2 other Scottish surnames that are sometimes mentioned as being Galloglas surnames on other websites - Agnew and Alexander (McAlexander) - though I am sceptical that they are Gallowglas surnames, especially in the case of the Alexander surname. (See post #66)

Finally, it amazes me the extent to which the history of the Scottish Gallowglass has been ignored by Scottish historians. The Galloglass are just a footnote in Scottish history. Most studies of Gallowglass history have been done by Irish historians and even these are limited.

Paul


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Paul Kelly
post 15th Dec 2007, 02:35pm
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St Catan was a 6th century Irish (Ulster) monk and was a contemporary of St Columba (St Columcille). Like St Columba, St Catan was one of the Irish missionary monks who introduced Christianity to Scotland. It is known that St Catan spent time in southern Argyll - Kintyre, Bute, Arran and Gigha. It seems St Catan had a devoted following in both Ireland and Scotland.

Mac Giolla Chatain is an Irish surname originating in north Ulster (Derry, Antrim and north Tyrone). Mac Gille Chatain is a Scottish surname originating in southern Argyll (Kintyre). Both these surnames mean 'son of the devotee of St Catan'. It is possible that the Mac Giolla Chatain family of north Ulster and Mac Gille Chatain family of Kintyre are actually the same family. If you look at a map, north Ulster and southern Argyll (Kintyre) are right next to each other. Alternatively, the names could have arisen independently in Ireland and Scotland amongst separate Irish and Scottish followers of the saint. No one knows for sure, though the latter explanation seems more likely.

There is a dispute over where St Catan is buried. The Irish claim he is buried in County Derry. The Scots claim he is buried on the Isle of Bute.

The Mac Giolla Chatain and Mac Gille Chatain families of Ireland and Scotland are relatively small, especially the Scottish family. The Mac Gille Chatain surname of Kintyre was usually Anglicised as Hatton (or occasionally McHatton or McIlhatton). The Mac Giolla Chatain surname of north Ulster was usually Anglicised as McElhatton or McIlhatton (or occasionally McHatton or Hatton). The Mac Gille Chatain family of Kintyre adopted the Protestant religion in the late 16th century following the Scottish Reformation. Furthermore, in the 17th century, a few Scottish Protestant Mac Gille Chatain Planters from Kintyre settled in Ulster. The McElhatton/McIlhatton/McHatton/Hatton surname can be found in Counties Derry, Antrim and Tyrone of Ulster today. While most are said to be of native Irish stock, some are likely to be of Scottish Planter extraction.

Incidentally, Hatton is also an English surname and the name is also found in the south east of Ireland (Leinster). The Leinster Hattons are said to be of English extraction.


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*Bernard E. Donahue*
post 5th Jan 2008, 03:26pm
Post #83






Paul:

Thank you for this very helpful information. My great-great-grandfather was Mathew McSorley from County Tyrone, likely either from Beragh or Sixmilecross. In 1848, he married my great-great-grandmother, Jane KELLY, of Gortfin in the Parish of Termonmaguirk. The emigrated to Philadelphia in 1850. Are you, by chance, related to the Kellys of County Tyrone?
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Paul Kelly
post 6th Jan 2008, 08:11am
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Hi Bernard.

The McSorleys were a family from Kintyre and Islay (sept of the McDonalds of Kintyre and Islay) in southern Argyll who moved en masse to County Tyrone as Gallowglasses in the 14th century. Here, they quickly intermarried with the local native Irish families of County Tyrone such as the Kellys and were assimilated into Ulster Gaelic culture (see post #35). I have discussed the McSorleys in many posts of this topic (#5, #24, #35, #38, #41, #53, #55, #81 and #83). I remember reading an article sometime ago about the McSorleys of County Tyrone in which it was claimed that SOME of the McSorleys of Tyrone are probably of native Irish extraction. While McSorley Galloglasses undoubtedly settled in Tyrone in the 14th century, it also seems likely that a few native Irish people also adopted the McSorley surname such was their admiration for the Gallowglass family. I think this might have been true for all the Galloglass families that settled in Ireland/Ulster. The Gallowglass were admired by the native Irish for their fighting prowess. There is a yellow rectangular box near the bottom of this page with the words Enter Keywords written in it. If you type McSorley and then press Search Topic you will get all the posts that mention McSorley. You should then repeat the search with the word McSorleys as post #38 will not show up in the 1st search. Somerled is another keyword you can try.

My Kelly ancestors came from the Ballybofey/Stranorlar area of south east Donegal which is not far from the border with County Tyrone. I discussed the Kellys of west Ulster at length in post #201 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'. I think the Kellys of west Ulster (Derry, Donegal and Tyrone) all belong to the same branch of the Kelly family (originating in Derry) and they are said to be direct descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages.

I have visited Ireland once, in the summer of 1991. I actually cycled around the coast of Ireland (from Larne to Larne in a clockwise direction). It took me about 4 weeks. I was exhausted at the end of it, but it was a great experience. I had a lot of fun along the way, especially in the Connemara region of County Galway, where I ended up staying longer than I'd planned. Towards the end of my journey, I spent a couple of nights in Ballybofey, Donegal where I met up with some of my dad's cousins (not Kelly cousins but Rutherford and Brady cousins who were nephews and neices of my paternal grandmother). I remember them telling me that they often went to Strabane, County Tyrone in Northern Ireland to do their shopping as things were cheaper there. I didn't meet up with any of my Kelly relatives in Donegal, but I have since established contact with a few of them via the internet in recent years. I am regularly in touch with a Kelly 3rd cousin of mine who stays in Stranorlar. I regret not spending more time in Donegal during my trip but I was running out of holiday time when I reached there. I intend visiting Donegal again one day. The part of Ireland which I found the most beautiful was the southern part of County Down in Northern Ireland around the Mourne mountains. The area just to the north of the Mourne Mountains was how I had always imagined Ireland to look. I didn't go to County Armagh to look up any of my mum's distant relatives. The closest I got to Armagh was the town of Newry in south Down, where I crossed the border to the Republic. I wasn't that interested in genealogy back then, though I think the trip planted a genealogical seed in me.

Paul


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*Brian Killen*
post 20th Jan 2008, 12:25pm
Post #85






Hi Paul,

I noticed your mentioning that you thought (Mc)Killen could be possibly a connection of McDonald. Not sure of your source but you could be right. My surname has been on record in county Down in the North of Ireland since available records begin in 17th century. The Norse-Gael gallowglass origins has been know to me and genealogy books tend to build on the Campbell connection.

However, after recently taking a DNA test of my y-chromosome to make a (successful) connection to another Killen branch in the USA (left the same part of county Down in the mid 19th century), one of my long lost cousins noticed that my DNA( & by inference her father's) match a subgroup of the McDonalds (from the Clan Donald website).

Brian.
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Paul Kelly
post 22nd Jan 2008, 01:32pm
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Hi Brian.

You must be referring to what I wrote in posts #46, #47, #48, #55, #56.
I was actually just putting forward a proposition. I didn't have a source. As you say, genealogy books and websites invariably describe the Mac Ailin Galloglasses as being a branch of the Campbells of Argyll primarily because they associate the name 'Ailin' with the Campbells of Argyll. Unless I am somehow mistaken, it struck me one day that it is the name Cailean (Colin) which is associated with the Campbells of Argyll and NOT the name Ailin (Alan) (see post #55 for a fuller discussion of this). In addition, some of the MacAilin (McCallion/McKillen) Galloglasses further Anglicised their surnames to Campbell in the years following the Plantations, especially in County Donegal, again fuelling speculation that the MacAilins were in someway related to the Campbells of Argyll.

I have been interested in Gallowglass history for some time now and it has not escaped my notice that most of the Galloglass families who settled in Ireland seem to have been related to the MacDonalds of southern Argyll (Kintyre and Islay). I was just putting forward the proposition that the MacAilin Gallowglasses may have in fact been related to the McDonalds and not the Campbells, and hoping for some sort of response. What you have said about the result of your Y chromosome DNA test is very interesting. I would love to hear the Y chromosome DNA test results of a group of Donegal McCallion men.

Paul


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*Brian Killen*
post 22nd Jan 2008, 06:08pm
Post #87






Hi Paul,

thanks for the prompt response , just thought that you would like to know you were right!

The y-chromosome not only helped prove a common ancestor but it also tested for what is a called a halplogroup. These are genetic mutations amongst populations. Mine is "I" which apparently indicates a central European origin in my distant paternal ancestry, most likely Scandinavian and more likely Norwegian (in the very distant past). So that ties in with the Norse-Gael gallowglass proposal.

The I haplogroup cleared up the issue of my missing prefix (the Mac), as had my origins been Killeen in the West of Ireland then it should have been (probably) R1b. I have this Killeen (O'Cillin) ancestry in another branch of my family tree. Even though my spelling is Killen (now pronouced "Kill-in" my great grandfather pronouced it "Killeen" as late at 1911,also spelt that way in several documents). As you know with MacAilin, there is an accent called a fada on the the second letter "i" which broadens the pronunciation to the English sounding double (ee).

It was my chance my new-found relative was researching the Clan (Mac) Donald website that she noticed the most of my (and her father's) genetic markers were the same as several of the McDonalds (sub clan McReynolds) listed, so the credit to that one belongs to her (Pat). Any variation indicates the statistical probability in time of when there was a common ancestor. Probably hundreds of years ago but related none the less.

The haplogroup was further refined to the I1c variant. Yes, it would be interesting to have more results to make comparison with West Ulster (and those in county Antrim where Killen and McKillen are still common). Anyway, just thought I would post so that there would be visibility for other other people with an interest in the topic.

Brian.
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*Brian Killen*
post 6th Feb 2008, 08:22pm
Post #88






Hi Paul,

Some further research....

as I said I match with a subgroup of McDonalds at....

http://dna-project.clan-donald-usa.org/tables.htm

The haplogroup I1c ....


as you said it would be interesting find the DNA results of McCallion men from Donegal to see if there was a link. I searched for some information on the internet (McCallion/DNA/Donegal).

First a digression....

Further the Clan Donald website seems to indicate that I1c could be specific to Ulster and Northern Britain....

source: http://dna-project.clan-donald-usa.org/DNAmain4.htm

"... while the I1c variety is more typically native British (Pictish or native Ulster). ...."


my search for McCallion in Donegal brought me to......

source: http://dohertyclann.homestead.com/files/April1998.htm

"... Robert Bell, a noted researcher and author, out of the Linen Hall Library, tells of a respected Chieftain, Ailean O'Dochartaigh, who was famous as a leader and warrior. And thus, his children became known as McAilean (children of Ailean). It was anglicised as McCallion. .."


Then I searched for DNA results for O'Doherty..... If Robert Bell is correct then I might match for O'Doherty DNA...... assuming that was the paternal line....

source: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/dohert...ixed_columns=on

Of the O'Doherty names listed the "majority" are I1c (and J which is related). By my checking of the available markers, I match for 25 exactly and the 7 STRs are off by one...


So it would appear that I match with O'Dohertys also, which is a well established Irish "Clan", guess the question is why is there a subgroup of McDonalds/McReynolds" matching for I1c? It could be that they were also O'Doherty by origin but by Gaelic naming convention certain O'Dohertys adopted their fathers' names (Donald and Ranald) and their descendents became McDonalds and McReynolds and have been lumped in with the Scottish McDonald grouping??. As the reference at the Clan Donald states above the I1c by their source? is specific to Ulster. All a work in progress.....

All the best,

Brian.
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Paul Kelly
post 8th Feb 2008, 02:35pm
Post #89


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Hi Brian.

I must confess I don't know much about haplogroups associated with the McDonalds/McDonnells, though I do find the topic very interesting.

I have heard of the alleged link between the McCallions and the Dohertys and I briefly mentioned it in post #47. While most of the McCallions of Donegal/Derry are undoubtedly of Galloglass origins, it is alleged that a few of the McCallions are related to the native Irish O'Dochartaigh (O'Doherty) family.

The O'Dohertys originated in north east Donegal (Inishowen Peninsula) and they are said to be one of the north west of Ireland families who are direct descendants (in the male line) of Niall of the Nine Hostages. The Dohertys were not a Gallowglass family, though they probably interacted with some of the Scottish Gallowglass settlers in Donegal. Being direct descendants of Niall, you would expect many men with the Doherty/Dogherty/Dougherty/Docherty surname to belong to the R1b1c7 (M222) haplogroup. Many in fact do!

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7...ixed_columns=on

The 20 or so Scottish Gallowglass families who settled in Ulster in the 14th, 15th and early 16th centuries - prior to the Scottish Reformation - heavily intermarried with the native Irish families of Ulster (unlike the large numbers of 17th Scottish Protestant Planter families in Ulster who remained largely separate.) There is also the possibility that some of the native Irish adopted Gallowglass surnames or joined Galloglass families and vice versa.


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*Brian Killen*
post 10th Feb 2008, 03:16pm
Post #90






Hi Paul,

all a work in progress, thanks for the comments, as more people get tested it will hopefully provide a better picture. if i've any additional information, i'll post to the board, thanks.Brian.
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