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> French Ban On Muslim Headscarves, What do you think?
frk
post 21st Sep 2004, 06:04am
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QUOTE (Catherine @ 17th Sep 2004, 02:58 PM)
Now here's an interesting observation {I think}....
You call a Nuns headscarf a Habit....I wonder if there's a connection to the 'habit' Muslim women have of wearing the headscarf..as it's been pointed out that it's not really mandatory to wear within religion.
Could it have came from those ages in the middle East when ALL women wore them through custom?
Do you get my meaning?...As in the form of it being a habit more than a rule?

The trio religions ( that what i call them ) have similarities, which can be a very interesting topic, as you have pointed it out. i have not seen a mention of head cover in a bibles i have read but i could tell you that in Islam it is stated clearly that covers are required although many muslim tends to argue about that as well. this is one verse:-

033:059 O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

and yes some of the ways they practice this is habitual but its basic laws are the same.



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Nora
post 21st Sep 2004, 02:46pm
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Hello, everybody,

Once again Nora's writing, sorry I'm going to write in french once again, it's easier for me, can someone translate, thanks in advance.

Well, la religion musulmane demande aux femmes de se voiler, et plus particulièrement d'adopter des vêtements amples et de cacher leur cheveux. Pourquoi?
A l'époque des invasions, guerres de religion et j'en passe, les femmes d'europe qui habitaient ces pays portaient ce qu'on appelle en français une mantille (sorte de voile ajouré ) pour tous leur déplacement dans les villes et villages; il s'en suivit automatiquement, une différenciation dans l'appréciation de ces différentes femmes : les nobles et celles qui avaient accompagnés leur époux en conquérants et les autres les otoctones qui elles ne portaient pas de signe distinctifs.
C'est à ce moment là que l'on demanda à ces femmes de porter elles aussi le voile pour qu'il n'y ait plus de différence faite entre toutes ces femmes.
De plus le voile, et les vêtements amples leur permettaient d'être plus à l'aise et d'éviter les agressions verbales et les ennuis causés par certains hommes trop insistant, et qui n'accorde de l'mportance aux femmes que lorsqu'ils ont envie de passer une soirée tendresse et gros câlins.

Donc, en soi le conseil donné aux femmes de se voiler est bon vu le contexte, ce qui me dérange, c'est l'amalgame que l'on est fait maintenant : qui dit voile dit intégrisme, ce qui n'est pas vrai, qui dit musulman dit danger, ce qui n'est là aussi pas vrai.

Effectivement il y a des illuminés qui pensent gouverner le monde par la force, en se cachant derrière la religion, mais croyez-vous qu'ils représentent l'ensemble de la communauté musulmane ?
Certes non; d'autres part, ne peut-on dire que Bush quelque part est un fanatique, lorsqu'il se réfère dans tous ces discours à la bible.
DAns quel monde vivons-nous ? pourquoi devrions-nous juger du comportement des autres ? pourquoi devrions-nous avoir honte aujourd'hui d'avoir des origines moyen-orientales ? pourquoi devons-nous sans arret prouver aux autres que nous pouvons faire comme eux ? que nous sommes comme eux ?
Vous savez c'est lourd par moment . En parlant de ma propre expérience, je peux vous dire, qu'en France, j'ai dû me battre pour pouvoir acceder au baccalauréat et ensuite à l'université.
Il en a été de même pour ma carrère professionnelle, parce que même si je suis française mes origines algériennes étaient mal acceptés; j'ai tenu bon et je suis arrivé aux buts que je m'étais fixé, et pour en revenir à mon petit mot d'il y a quelques jours, effectivement j'ai beaucoup de tendresse pour les gens de Glasgow, parce qu'ils ne m'ont pas jugé d'après mes origines, il ne m'ont pas vu comme un envahisseur, j'ai discuté avec beaucoup de gens, dans les jardins publics, à prince square, à kelvingroove park, avec le patron de l'hôtel où j'étais, sans aucune animosité, sans gène, et vous savez, le fait simplement que l'on me dise avec le sourire y're welcome, c'est comme si on m'avait offert une grosse part de gateaux au chocolat (hi hi hi !!!)
Sérieusement, ce qui manque en France c'est la tolérance, et l'acceptation des différences des autres, (je ne porte pas le voile mais je comprends celles qui veulent le porter).
Il y a bien assez de conflits dans le monde, ne croyez vous pas ?
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carmella
post 21st Sep 2004, 04:08pm
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Nora

It is nice that you are posting here on the GG. However, since this is an English speaking forum, I think you should post in English for the most part certainly.

There are a number of websites where you can put your French comments in, and have these translated into English. I append a couple for your help - these are free incidentally!

It saves time and is more beneficial if you try to do this - you are already familiar with the internet, so I think this should be relatively straight forward for you. These sites are quite reliable, broadly speaking!

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

http://translation2.paralink.com/

http://www.freetranslation.com/


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Catherine
post 21st Sep 2004, 05:16pm
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God Bless ye Carmella...quick thinkin.

Nae offence Nora but ye'd be a hard act tae follow at a perty!! biggrin.gif

Thanks FRK....I thought it interestin too.

This post has been edited by Catherine: 21st Sep 2004, 05:53pm


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GG
post 21st Sep 2004, 11:33pm
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Thanks Nora and Carmella, for the record, from Nora (from one of the translation sites, not from me!):

QUOTE
Well, the Islamic religion requires of the women to be veiled, and more particularly d'adopter full clothing and to hide their hair. Why? To l'époque from the invasions, wars of religion and j'en passes, the women d'europe who lived these countries carried this qu'on calls in French a mantille (kind of openwork veil) for all their displacement in the cities and villages; it s'en followed automatically, a differentiation in l appreciation of these various women: the noble ones and those which had accompanied their husband as conquerors and others the otoctones which they did not carry a sign distinctive. C'est at this time there that l'on required of these women to carry they also the veil for qu'il n'y has more difference made between all these women. Moreover the veil, and full clothing allowed them d'être more with l'aise and d'éviter the verbal aggressions and the troubles caused by certain men too insistent, and who n'accorde of l'mportance to the women that lorsqu'ils wants to pass one evening tenderness and large câlins. Therefore, in oneself the council given to the women to veil itself is good considering the context, which disturbs me, c'est l'amalgame that l'on is made now: who says veil says integrism, which n'est not true, which says Moslem said danger, which n'est there too not true. Indeed it illuminated there which thinks of controlling the world by the force, while hiding behind the religion, but do believe you qu'ils represent l'ensemble Moslem community? Admittedly not; d'autres share, cannot one say that Bush some share is a fanatic, lorsqu'il refers in all these speeches with the bible. In which world do live we? why should we judge behavior of the others? why should we have shame aujourd'hui to d'avoir means-Eastern origins? why do we have without stop to prove with the others which we can do like them? what are we like them? You know c'est heavy per moment. While speaking about my own experiment, I can tell you, qu'en France, j'ai due to beat me to be able acceder with the baccalaureat and then with l university. It was in the same way for my carrère professional, because even if I am French my Algerian origins were badly accepted; j'ai held good and I arrived at the goals that I m'étais fixed, and to return from there to my small word d'il has there a few days, indeed j'ai much of tenderness for people of Glasgow, parce qu'ils m'ont not considered d'après my origins, it m'ont not seen like an invader, j'ai discussed with many people, in the parks, with prince public garden, kelvingroove park, with the owner of l'hôtel where j'étais, without any animosity, without gene, and you know, the fact simply that l'on says to me with the smile y're welcome, c'est as if one m'avait offered a large share of chocolate cakes (hi hi hi!!!) Seriously, which misses in France c'est the tolerance, and l acceptation of the differences of the others, (I do not wear the veil but I include/understand those which want to carry it). There are well enough conflicts in the world, do not believe not?


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Catherine
post 22nd Sep 2004, 12:07am
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Live and let live regardless of clothing is your story Nora right?
I agree.
Very interesting the different veils or headresses in accordance with your 'station' in life.
You're right, there's WAY TOO MANY more important conflicts in life.

{Martin, love when ye talk french} laugh.gif


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August26
post 22nd Sep 2004, 12:10am
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Martin:
Good Lord, I think until Nora takes a good ESL course, she should refrain from serious discussion on this site, I read the translation several times, my head is spinning, it's either too late in the evening or I'm just getting too old (no comment from you Heather). I'm sure what she is trying to say we would all find interesting, if we could understand it. ohmy.gif

August

Catherine: Your so smart, is that what that was all about, read your post, I guess we were reading it at the same time, my neighbors are Muslin they don't wear scarfs, now I have to ask them why not!


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Catherine
post 22nd Sep 2004, 12:19am
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Aw camoan August, if ah kin get the jist of it then so kin you....then again, mibbe yer gettin auld right enuf laugh.gif

Personally I've a habit of reading between the lines , that may be because I'm the worst at articulation as I've said many times before, and I try hard to catch the jists of what people are trying to get across.....because I'm that person oan a good day!!
It has been known mind you that I get the wrang end of the stick an aw...ce la vie an awrrat...y'no!

If ahm readin right, neither dis Nora wear the headress August....again it all comes back to choice I THINK{?}......which brings us back to the whole argument within this discussion...the choice has been taken away.


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August26
post 22nd Sep 2004, 12:44am
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Catherine:
Your oh so smart biggrin.gif I looked between the lines, but all I saw was the paper, yep with age comes "brain freeze"

August


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Nora
post 22nd Sep 2004, 06:52am
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I'm sorry for disturbiing everyone with my french language,
I understand.

Take care all of you and have nice time in your wonderfull city : GLASGOW

Nora
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steakpie
post 22nd Sep 2004, 10:36am
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Nora is free to wear or not to wear whatever she pleases. No religious leader should have the power to make anyone dress according to his beliefs. When you go back to the roots of the religious rule,you see that it was because the warriors of the time were unable to control their lusts. Well, if you're going to die in a battle that you went looking for, why not have a bit of fun beforehand. Fun for them, not for the victim. So women who had to follow their husbands into battle zones and surrounds, were being hit upon by the unruly soldiers. Why was there not an indictment against the soldiers behaving in this way?

If men insist in bashing each others heads in, why not send them all to a far away location so they can get out of their system? I suppose far away from one person is another's back yard. The moon, maybe?

I doesn't really matter how the rule came about. Most people follow the rules of their society because they truly believe in them or because they want to do as others do, or because they are afraid of being targetted as non-adherents. Supposing the whole world went about with headscarves, the would-be dominants would find some other way to subjugate people.

I believe that al quaeda terrorists are either blindly following misguided leaders, like Bin laden; or are fractious personalities to begin with and have found a milieu that nurtures their evil intents; or are vacant-minded individuals in the first place, ripe for brainwashing under the control of the so-called religious leaders. The world is full of misplaced or excess hostile youth, ripe for manipulation, religious or otherwise. Especially in countries where large families are the norm or where war and famine have left millions parentless. (lots of expendable fanatics, groomed by power hungry fanatics)

Of course, some of the muslim backlash is sins of the parents being visited upon the children. (Crusades) Well, Bin Laden better not leave any of us standing or his progeny will reap the same. Not so merry-go-round.

My fear is that there won't be many left standing form any side. Someone is going to use the nuke. The Americans have a history of such, and the others have a lust for it. And we won't be around long enough to know whodunnit.

I'm going to Lee Valley to see if they have plans for an Ark to take me away from earth. See, I learned something from the bible.
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TeeHeeHee
post 1st Oct 2017, 02:42pm
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We've come a long way since the last post on this topic.
It's difficult to find a topic on our boards relatiing to the Burka which hasn't already been locked and I'm pretty sure there's no great need these days to start another off.
Having said that today's (Sunday) newspapers all report on the enforcement in Austria now of a law banning full-face veils in the open.

The DailyMail Online is the only one to show images of the law being enforced by Police on the street ...


Attached Image


Attached Image


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-49...il-Austria.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/eu...t-a7742981.html

Is it now time to ensure that this also comes into force in the UK ... or are we too PC for such a move?


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john.mcn
post 1st Oct 2017, 06:55pm
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QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 1st Oct 2017, 02:42pm) *
Is it now time to ensure that this also comes into force in the UK ... or are we too PC for such a move?



According to the DM it is a ban on all full face coverings. Now I'm no expert on the laws of Austria but just try and cover your face here and walk about up the toon, you will be stopped and questioned by the police, either it is OK to cover your face or it isn't, one tiny section of society should not be exempt.
In my honest opinion it should be banned in public/council/state buildings and banks, private businesses should also be allowed the right to ask them to remove coverings or leave.


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carmella
post 1st Oct 2017, 07:10pm
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Yes it should be banned. End of story. The only place it should be allowed is in the home - I say this in jest as that is not the point, for modesty reasons they only wear it outdoors but there is no religious reason for them wearing it anyway.

I am having to type this on a tablet which i hate, however, my IBM keyboard has suddenly stopped using the spacebar also numbers 5 and 7 - go figure, it's a mystery not to mention extremely inconvenient.


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wombat
post 1st Oct 2017, 08:18pm
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QUOTE (carmella @ 1st Oct 2017, 08:10pm) *
Yes it should be banned. End of story. The only place it should be allowed is in the home - I say this in jest as that is not the point, for modesty reasons they only wear it outdoors but there is no religious reason for them wearing it anyway.

I am having to type this on a tablet which i hate, however, my IBM keyboard has suddenly stopped using the spacebar also numbers 5 and 7 - go figure, it's a mystery not to mention extremely inconvenient.


rolleyes.gif try changing the batteries in keyboard


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