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> Recognition For Wallace Monument, Site of Wallace's historic betrayal
weebren3
post 4th Mar 2012, 10:28pm
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Thank you for posting,you just made me even more proud of Wallace,our history no scots should forget. Now everyone get there history books out and read to the children. I read what people had to say,I could not believe so many people dont recall to much regarding this history. Thanks Martin for posting and starting this site,your A great scots too,at least you did not forget. Your appreciated. rolleyes.gif
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*Guest*
post 5th Mar 2012, 10:39am
Post #32






QUOTE (GG @ 4th Mar 2012, 06:39pm) *
... seen from the geopolitical perspective of the Middle Ages, of course, if Wishart or Bruce had 'betrayed' Wallace, they would not have see it as a betrayal. Rather, they would have viewed it as a sacrifice worth making to give the Scottish prelates and magnates time to further the strategic cause of independence given that Edward I would not bargain while Wallace still a free man.

Some authors have postulated that Wallace's refusal to compromise and negotiate on the central issues associated with Scottish independence made the commoner a less effective political leader. Not surprisingly, it is Wallace's refusal to compromise and bargain that have made him such an outstanding national hero.

GG.

Based on what historical evidence? This "opinion" I have never seen postulated by any historian I have encountered on reading any text extant to this period of Scottish and or English history.

Quote sources and I will stand corrected.
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wee davy
post 5th Mar 2012, 01:34pm
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Welcome guest
It is clear you are well read in the matter of 'oor wullie' - however I think GG was quite clear when discussing the many theories which you know, are LEGION.

Why not join our happy (legend has it, mostly)little band, and you can be FULLY integrated within our musings.##

Old Blind Harry has a LOT to answer for - don't you wish you had a time machine sometimes?

Hope you will consider joining.

Regards, wee davy


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GG
post 5th Mar 2012, 08:48pm
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QUOTE (Guest @ 5th Mar 2012, 09:44am) *
QUOTE
Some authors have postulated that Wallace's refusal to compromise and negotiate on the central issues associated with Scottish independence made the commoner a less effective political leader. Not surprisingly, it is Wallace's refusal to compromise and bargain that have made him such an outstanding national hero.

GG.

Based on what historical evidence? This "opinion" I have never seen postulated by any historian I have encountered on reading any text extant to this period of Scottish and or English history.

Quote sources and I will stand corrected.

Thanks wee davy, yes I'd also encourage anyone to join our happy band!

I think it's a perfectly logical hypothesis to develop, particularly with respect to Wallace's unstinting loyalty to Balliol, whom many of the prelates (Wishart certainly, Lamberton perhaps) and magnates (Bruce and Comyn being the most powerful) thought unfit to restore to the head of an independent Scottish nation. In refusing to veer from his extraordinary devotion to 'Toom Tabard', Wallace lost the opportunity to make powerful allies in former Guardians who would subsequently 'change side' and occupy important positions in Edward's government of occupation. If Wallace had compromised his position he may not have felt compelled/forced to resign his Guardianship after defeat at Falkirk. (Indeed, with the full loyalty of the magnates it might be have been possible for Wallace to have been victorious against a withering, but still immensely powerful, English army in 1298!?)

Of course, that's my opinion only. In terms of such a hypothesis having been postulated by historians ... I would say that it is a persistent theme (sometimes underlying) in Andrew Fisher's excellent biography of Wallace. Also, although it's a few years since reading, I think Chris Brown would not have been averse to taking up such theorising (though I cannot be sure).

I can't find the exact passage in Fisher which first prompted my memory, however, on re-reading the conclusion, I found the following on page 258:

QUOTE
It is too readily forgotten that had Wallace survived Edward I and lived to witness an independent Scotland, it would have been as an opponent of Bruce; Balliol's man, Wallace, would not have changed his allegiance.

From this we can see that the author believes that Bruce must have viewed Wallace as a potential threat, almost certainly undermining the support of the powerful Annandale clan.

GG.


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GG
post 5th Mar 2012, 08:57pm
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That said, it is also my opinion that Wallace's loyalty and devotion – amongst many other qualities – propel him to the apex of national heroes!

GG.


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stratson
post 5th Mar 2012, 09:54pm
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I heartily concur!!!


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angel
post 5th Mar 2012, 10:36pm
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I recall reading a number of years ago , an article , saying that the great Robert the Bruce was no where to be found when Wallace needed his help , that would have interfered with Bruce's plans of being King .
" So Wallace was the sacrificial lamb "



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Heather
post 6th Mar 2012, 12:15am
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Weebren, I couldn't help laughing when I read about you saying get the History books out and read to the children.
It reminded me of when my g'son was only about one year old and I was baby sitting as my son and his wife were out for the night. My son phoned to see how the baby was and I told him I was reading him the story of William Wallace, he burst out laughing. When they came home he told me his wife and friends all had a good laugh when he told them what I was reading to the baby. laugh.gif


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GG
post 6th Mar 2012, 12:57am
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QUOTE (angel @ 5th Mar 2012, 09:41pm) *
I recall reading a number of years ago , an article , saying that the great Robert the Bruce was no where to be found when Wallace needed his help , that would have interfered with Bruce's plans of being King .

"So Wallace was the sacrificial lamb "

Angel, not only was Bruce frequently nowhere to be found, he was often plotting against the best intentions that Wallace had for his beloved Scotland. There's a note in Andrew Fisher's biography of Wallace (mentioned above) that says it all:

QUOTE
There are certain periods of Bruce's career which pose difficulties even for the most dedicated of his [Bruce's] biographers. If Falkirk is perhaps the most obvious of these, his actions after Irvine [a humiliating Scottish defeat] remain unclear also. ...

GG.


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GG
post 6th Mar 2012, 12:59am
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QUOTE (Heather @ 5th Mar 2012, 11:20pm) *
Weebren, I couldn't help laughing when I read about you saying get the History books out and read to the children.
It reminded me of when my g'son was only about one year old and I was baby sitting as my son and his wife were out for the night. My son phoned to see how the baby was and I told him I was reading him the story of William Wallace, he burst out laughing. When they came home he told me his wife and friends all had a good laugh when he told them what I was reading to the baby. laugh.gif

Heather, I honestly believe that you could not get a better role model for a boy on any page of any book ever written than William Wallace ... just don't get him a sword from the pound shop! smile.gif

GG.


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angel
post 6th Mar 2012, 05:27am
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Martin , I took a little refresher course this evening on the.
Battle of Falkirk smile.gif
Wallace was not only fighting the English , He was also fighting a more dangerous enemy , his own kind and because of this , the battle for him became an excercise in futility.
Also , it is very likely that he did fall into a deep depession and with the help of friends , managed to escape to Europe .


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JAGZ1876
post 6th Mar 2012, 08:27am
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QUOTE (angel @ 6th Mar 2012, 04:32am) *
He was also fighting a more dangerous enemy , his own kind


I know the feeling Angel tongue.gif
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Heather
post 6th Mar 2012, 04:24pm
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No fear of that GG, the g'son is 20 yrs old now. laugh.gif

It was not a Historical Novel I was reading to the g'son it was a childs book which gave a brief history of which ever character the book was about.
It was one of many I used to buy for my son when he was young. I think they were called 'Ladybird Books' and my son had a lot of them as I believe in reading to children as it encourages them to read when they are older.


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*Archie*
post 6th Mar 2012, 11:22pm
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I used to go when I was younger and we stayed in Barmulloch. Nice to see that something is being done to help the site stay in good working order. Places like this need to be protected for future generations. Thanks.
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TeeHeeHee
post 7th Mar 2012, 12:11am
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QUOTE (Heather @ 6th Mar 2012, 03:29pm) *
... I think they were called 'Ladybird Books' ...

They are. I'm nearly finished Book 5 now. tongue.gif


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