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> Scottish Independence, About voting yes/no
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bilbo.s
post 20th May 2017, 06:39pm
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MORE VIEWS FROM AN ORDINARY GUY IN FIFE

My name is Stuart, I’m 49 years old and I live in Fife.
I would like to share my feelings with you, on the exciting, unparalleled and constantly shifting political climate we find ourselves in, here in Scotland in 2017. And, if you don’t mind, some of my opinions and observations on how we arrived here.
I started school at Parkhill Primary, in Leven here in Fife, in the early ‘70s. Of course I wasn’t aware or interested in the fact that many of my fellow primary pupils around the UK had recently lost the chance to have free milk at their schools. Something that was obviously important for many poorer families then. Something that was introduced to improve the health of children, many of whom had no access to a nutritious healthy diet through no fault of their own.
The removal of that free milk was due to a policy introduced by Edward Heath’s Education Secretary, a woman called, ehmmm, oh, what was it again? Oh yes….it was Margaret Thatcher.
I can’t help but wonder how many of the (then) children, that were victims of that policy, are now in or approaching their 50s and gazing open-mouthed at the launch of the Tory manifesto on Thursday.
They must absolutely adore the Tory Party! It seems certain that some of the people, that had their milk stolen away by Thatcher at the beginning of their lives will have their houses stolen away by May at the end of their lives. They can, of course, empathise with any grandkids they have, losing free school dinners, thanks to current Tory policy.
So, as things stand, we 40/50 somethings face the very real prospect of being stiffed over by Tories that never get elected by the voters in Scotland, at both the beginning AND the end of our three score and ten. What’s happened in between that means people in Scotland are in this position?
Of course I was too young to be aware of (or even care about) the politics of the mid 1970s. It’s only through talking to older people and avidly reading about politics that I started to see a pattern forming. One that still exists.
That Heath government was ousted in 1974 by Harold Wilson’s Labour. It was a minority government however and that hung parliament prompted a further GE later in the year. That saw Labour emerge with a slim majority of just 3 seats. James Callaghan took over as PM in ‘76.
There was something VERY important going on in regard to Scottish Politics during those years however. It’s time to talk about the McCrone Report. For those that don’t know, the McCrone report is a document on the Scottish economy written and researched in 1974 on behalf of the British Government. It was composed by Professor Gavin McCrone employed at the Scottish Office. The document gave a highly favourable projection for the economy of an independent Scotland with a "chronic surplus to a quite embarrassing degree and projected that its currency would become the hardest in Europe". This led successive iterations of the British government to classify the McCrone report as "secret". This was so to avoid fuelling independence sentiment in Scotland. The report became public in 2005 when new freedom of information legislation came into effect. In simple terms, the findings were covered up for decades.
YES, oil was discovered. And both the coming Labour and Tory Governments would continue to downplay it’s worth, all the way up to……...yep, you guessed it, NOW! The idea of covering up oil (and its worth to the UK or, GOD FORBID, an independent Scotland) gave rise to a phrase many of us in the indy family know all too well, the phrase about ‘taking the wind out of the SNP sails’. Funny how things change!
So, what did the UK do with this unbelievably valuable resource? Fast forward to 1979 and…………….THATCHER (remember her?) wins the GE. That heralded 18 years of continuous Tory power at Westminster. There must have been almost two decades of wealth, growth, incredible investment in local and national infrastructure and a boom in industry, business and local services, right? Erm, NO! Oh, people got rich alright. Problem was, it was only a very small amount of people. As Thatcher waged war on unions and the working classes by getting rid of the coal mines, shipping steel industry and undertook the privatisation that she would go on to describe in her memoirs as “fundamental to improving Britain's economic performance”., some Tory bankers, media moguls and and property owners became super rich.
As all this was going on, a country (with an almost identical population to Scotland) was developing their own oil industry. Norway is one of the wealthiest nations on the planet. What did THEY do when they realised there was an incredible resource available to them in the North Sea? They established a thing called a Sovereign Wealth Fund. It exists in order to invest the SURPLUS generated by their petroleum sector. I won’t go into too much detail on this, you get the idea.
Is that ‘oil fund’ valuable? Let me tell you where it ranks on the list of sovereign wealth funds on the planet……………...yes, it is number one.
Over a few short decades we have two countries (with similar populations) that have discovered a valuable resource in their waters, but we have two opposite situations. Norway, one of the richest countries in the world with the insurance of a HUGE oil fund, wisely invested for a rainy day and Scotland, victims of an austerity agenda that sees its poorest citizens relying on an SNP government to mitigate the rape clause, bedroom tax and other draconian Tory policies. There’s only two countries in the world that discovered oil and failed to establish an oil fund: Iraq and the UK. Just...think...about...that...
It’s madness to think that the people in Westminster are to be trusted to do what’s best for people in Scotland. This is about 50 years of us being taken to the cleaners (by blue AND red governments down there) and it’s time for change in Scotland.
They’ll tell you the oil (they’ve stolen) is running out...not for a long time yet. We have many and varied other assets. They aren’t going to these lengths, to hold on to Scotland, because they’re desperate to subsidy us. Behave yerself! We’d be chucked away like an SNP voter in the Question Time audience if that were the case.
Our renewable energy, fisheries, IT, engineering, science, pharmacology, whisky, tourism and scores of other industries are great compliments to what’s still in the North Sea.
Are we selfish to want to move away and use these resources for Scotland? Ask yourself this……...would we be daft to let it all be taken away, as the very people, taking it from us, hand us pocket money and claim we’re ‘separatists’ threatening some ‘union’ for wanting a vote on self determination?
Still not sure which government is in the right? Why not tune into the debate where Theresa May has the courage, good grace and respect for the voting public to have these issues out with people that represent Scotland and other regions/countries within the UK?



Come on guys, Scotland is so obviously going to be run better by and for the people that live here.


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Dykejumper
post 20th May 2017, 07:35pm
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The removal of school milk was actually a Labour initiative so i didnt bother reading any further.
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john.mcn
post 20th May 2017, 08:06pm
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Interesting views from someone slamming the closure of the coal mines while at the same time citing renewable energy as a benefit. someone might want to tell him that you cannot have both. Under any governments drive towards a smaller carbon foot print and more renewable energy will have meant the coal mines would still have been shut.
As for an oil fund, there should have been one started when Oil production was high, nowadays the money raised from it is spent before it's even been extracted so there's no hope that one can be started any time soon


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bilbo.s
post 20th May 2017, 09:32pm
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QUOTE (john.mcn @ 20th May 2017, 10:06pm) *
Interesting views from someone slamming the closure of the coal mines while at the same time citing renewable energy as a benefit. someone might want to tell him that you cannot have both. Under any governments drive towards a smaller carbon foot print and more renewable energy will have meant the coal mines would still have been shut.
As for an oil fund, there should have been one started when Oil production was high, nowadays the money raised from it is spent before it's even been extracted so there's no hope that one can be started any time soon


50% of the oil price revenue shared among 5 million is a helluva lot better than shared among 65 million, even at 100% revenue. OK, John, renewable energy is not a benefit- we'll just bin it, eh! I guess you didn't major in logic. wacko.gif


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bilbo.s
post 20th May 2017, 09:40pm
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QUOTE (john.mcn @ 20th May 2017, 10:06pm) *
Interesting views from someone slamming the closure of the coal mines while at the same time citing renewable energy as a benefit. someone might want to tell him that you cannot have both. Under any governments drive towards a smaller carbon foot print and more renewable energy will have meant the coal mines would still have been shut.
As for an oil fund, there should have been one started when Oil production was high, nowadays the money raised from it is spent before it's even been extracted so there's no hope that one can be started any time soon


Under WM the oil revenue is certainly spent, or rather squandered. 5 million sharing the proceeds of oil at 50% price level is still a lot better than 65 million sharing the proceeds, even at 100% level.

OK, John, renewable energy is not a benefit- we'll just bin it. Isn't that in the Tory manifesto? wacko.gif


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bilbo.s
post 21st May 2017, 08:32am
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http://talkradio.co.uk/news/attempting-den..._medium=twitter


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*Billy Boil*
post 21st May 2017, 11:03am
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When you can run a car factory or steel mill on alternative energy I will start listening. South Australia due to its' "Green Labor ( yes that's the spelling) went over to political renewable energy causing the whole state to black out for several days and import coal fired power from the other neighbouring states. The bumbling premier of said state, went on record saying everything would be OK if people did not switch on air conditioners. WHAT in his office???
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john.mcn
post 21st May 2017, 02:49pm
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QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 20th May 2017, 09:40pm) *
Under WM the oil revenue is certainly spent, or rather squandered. 5 million sharing the proceeds of oil at 50% price level is still a lot better than 65 million sharing the proceeds, even at 100% level.

OK, John, renewable energy is not a benefit- we'll just bin it. Isn't that in the Tory manifesto? wacko.gif



All the taxes raised in Scotland, including oil, do not cover the money spent in Scotland so it is not 'shared' between the +65 million of the UK. While the oil price is low, production stops and fields close. The costs associated with this, as is with any business, is offset against taxes due, you are an accountant and know this.


LOL you are avoiding the point I made, the 'author' is moaning about coal mines being shut while holding up renewable energy, you cannot have coal mines while pushing for the likes of wind energy. The last coal fired power station in Scotland, Longannet, closed last year because of the drive towards cleaner energy, if Thatcher didn't close the mines then they would have still long been closed by now.

Renewables need massive subsidies to operate, without the 'green taxes' they would not be built. There's a big wind farm in East Renfrewshire, next time you're in Scotland pop along and see it. Dont worry theres a wee cafe where you can grab an empire biscuit and watch most of them not spinning


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JAGZ1876
post 21st May 2017, 03:16pm
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QUOTE (john.mcn @ 19th May 2017, 08:23pm) *
errr you not accepting the democratic result in 2014 rolleyes.gif


errr the vow wasn't kept, all the promises to vote NO were dropped, the UK of 2014 no longer exists, the Holyrood parliament voted in favour of a second referendum.

Tis you that doesn't accept democracy.
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john.mcn
post 21st May 2017, 04:22pm
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What was the VOW jagz?

Why does the UK of 2014 not exist, it looks the exact same on google earth?

Holyrood does not have the power to hold a referendum anymore than it does to declare war, if they did that would you be backing them? But anyway, the PR system was devised to have the parliament more representative of the publics voting choice. The second list vote has been manipulated to give more support to the SNP/SNP Lite than they got in votes. Between them they got less than 50% of first preference votes yet they hold a majority in Holyrood

The SNP could very easily put this to bed by saying a vote for them is a vote for another referendum but they refuse, if they are so sure of winning +50% of the vote then why are they running scared?


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Dykejumper
post 21st May 2017, 06:11pm
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Independence transcends all for the Selfie Queen but a close second is keeping as many of her
troops as possible on the gravy train. In that respect the SNP is just like the westminster partys
she hates.
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JAGZ1876
post 21st May 2017, 06:17pm
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QUOTE (john.mcn @ 21st May 2017, 05:22pm) *
What was the VOW jagz?

Why does the UK of 2014 not exist, it looks the exact same on google earth?

Holyrood does not have the power to hold a referendum


The Vow was a pack of lies as you well know.

Because this is 2017 for one thing. laugh.gif

What.....The most powerful devolved parliament in the known universe can't hold a referendum? ohmy.gif
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bilbo.s
post 21st May 2017, 07:20pm
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"All the taxes raised in Scotland, including oil, do not cover the money spent in Scotland so it is not 'shared' between the +65 million of the UK. "

I see you still subscribe to the old chestnut that Scotland is subsidised. One does not have to be an accountant to dispel this myth. It only needs a logical, rational brain to figure out that the UK government, who will not subsidise a spare bedroom, is hardly disposed to support Scotland out of philanthropy. All taxes raised in Scotland, and far more uncredited, go to the UK exchequer, before they hand back the pocket money. Therefore the oil revenue IS shared among all the UK inhabitants at present. A situation which would be changed with independence, along with other items such as the booze industry, and income tax and NICS from employees whose payrolls are done in England.

The comparison is not so simple as looking at figures applicable to the status quo.

The whole crux of the matter is why UK wants so desperately ( and will stop at nothing) to hold on to Scotland. End of story!


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bilbo.s
post 21st May 2017, 07:23pm
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QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 21st May 2017, 08:17pm) *
The Vow was a pack of lies as you well know.

Because this is 2017 for one thing. laugh.gif

What.....The most powerful devolved parliament in the known universe can't hold a referendum? ohmy.gif



Tell that to UN. yes.gif


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john.mcn
post 21st May 2017, 10:28pm
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QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 21st May 2017, 06:17pm) *
The Vow was a pack of lies as you well know.


I asked what the VOW was jagz, not your opinion on it. you state that is hasn't been fulfilled then why not post what it was and others can make up their mind if it was or not.
QUOTE
Because this is 2017 for one thing. laugh.gif

So does that mean that the UK 'changes' every year then and your 'the UK of 2014 does not exist' is just one more stupid soundbite from the SNP that means bugger all
QUOTE
What.....The most powerful devolved parliament in the known universe can't hold a referendum? ohmy.gif


Well jagz if you recall I argued for more powers to be transferred and I still say that wee nic has shot her self in her foot thats in her mouth by pursuing the 'we voted to remain' line. She should be using her time and our money to push for powers relinquished to the EU to be devolved to the respected parliaments.
I also want referenda to be held so that the publics view can be known on subjects that affect us , but those who wish other to do our thinking for us think we should have the same question put to us until we answer the way they want..
lets have Margo's bill put to the people, lets make sure her legacy and fight be remembered and that us little people get to decide if we should be trusted with the question that does affect every single one of us.. Do we have the right to choose when we die? Why the hell are we entrusting this simple question to know it all politicians, whether we think we should or not or not should be down to us, not them!!


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