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Glasgow Boards/Forums _ Questions about Glasgow _ Executions

Posted by: martinjmurray 16th Feb 2004, 07:13pm

I am researching executions in Scotland and most happened due to cases in Glasgow. Additionally mosat of the areas are now demolished. eg Plantation: Blackburn street the only plce in Scotland where two murders 40 years apart led to executions, Neptune Stret in Govan here two brothers were due o be hanged until the day before one confessed. And the carraher murders in gorbals and townhead, until jimmy boyle the only man to be tried twice for murder. Can anyone help me as even Duke Street Prison site of many executions is no more.

Posted by: Guest 18th Feb 2004, 02:02am

Hi Martinmurray if you tell me the years you are looking for,I have info on all the executions of the last century

Posted by: Guest 18th Feb 2004, 10:39am

Hi Martin
On the 7thof july 1950Claude&Paul Harris were accused& convicted of killing Martin Dunleavy Paul took the blame&Claude got reprieved.Paul got hung in the october at Barlinnie,the incident took place at 151 Neptune St

Posted by: Heather 19th Feb 2004, 12:19am

Martin, It depends on how far back you want to go. Glasgow Cross was a place of executions many many years back.
One of the well known Scots to be hung there was St. John Ogilvie in 1615 for saying Mass and preaching the Catholic Religion.

Posted by: martinjmurray 19th Feb 2004, 10:07am

QUOTE (Guest @ 18th Feb 2004, 10:56 AM)
Hi Martin
On the 7thof july 1950Claude&Paul Harris were accused& convicted of killing Martin Dunleavy Paul took the blame&Claude got reprieved.Paul got hung in the october at Barlinnie,the incident took place at 151 Neptune St

many thankas i am aware of the caes and whgere they happened via exhaustive research. what i am trying to get is the culture circumstances and nature of those who did it. some were executed for crimes less gruesome than others who were reprieved, why was this. such as the harknesses in the 1920's he was executed yet she was not, while it seems that the street was either renamed or demolished. not sure which. however evidence suggested she rather than he did it. the harris case was bafd as two brothers would have hanged yet a gut in helensburgh was reprieved a mobnth earlier. m[QUOTE]

Posted by: Guest 19th Feb 2004, 08:05pm

Hi MartinI have only references to executions.
The Harkness trial they were both sentenced to hang but his wifes sentence was changed to life imprisonment.
As for the place of the murder 67 George St Whiteinch I think the propertys will still be there as I don`t think Partick or Whiteinch was part of Glasgow in the 1920s the girl they killed was only 14 years old

Posted by: GG 19th Feb 2004, 11:54pm

Received from MJM in error via 'Reported Post':

I am looking for any info on the perpetrators such as did they have previos convictions, where did they live, what happened to their families. John keen had a young son, paul harris had twoi kids, john lyons a daughter.susan newall's daughter was with her when she was arrested, and her natural father was cdead and her step father wronglfllt accused. in case of lyons lennie and crosbie only lyons hanged why? any such info would be useful to contectualise my work. many thanks. m

--

Many thanks. this case i know well as it is unique in sciottish history. the english executed two brother in the 1930's but necver done in scotland.also last woman in scotland was 1923 while ruth ellis was 1955 and one of two women. again the scene of crime rebuilt so hard to contextualise. was it you who wrote the executions book, as it was a good read but takling things from a different angle from my interest. greatful of any advice such as what happened to the bodies at duke street when they bilt the fllats etc. Many thabnks. m

--

Many thanks I'm trying to get info on 20th century cases only as threy are most relevant to the chane in attitude. we went from virtually everyone seeing an execution by 1868 to 1969 when abolition was ratfied. Places like Blackburn street was the scebe of two murders leading to executions as was queens park recs.i'm looking for anything anyone remebers about the cases. the type of people involved, the culture etc. many thanks.

Posted by: Gallusbisom 20th Feb 2004, 12:11am

One of my cousins, born in the Plantation area, was a policeman then in the CID, perhaps he may know something of the history of these crimes, I will ask. Problem is, he does not, at this time, use a computer, but I will write to him, he still lives in Glasgow, and his wife's father was also in the police force, maybe they have some old stories? Will try. Where exactly did these crimes occur and when and what happened-sorry I am not familiar with them, but will forward your info. Hope it works out.

Posted by: Guest 21st Feb 2004, 02:36am

Hi Martin
The bodies at Duke St & Barlinnie were buried in lime pits so don`t know if there would be much leftI believe the names were on a wall in the prison don`t know if they are still there.
The Lyons case was a gang fight in Argyle St.Lyons got executed Rennie done 9 years Alex Crosbie done 10 years& was released in 1956 ,lyons was his brother in law

The book I have is Enclopaedia of executions by John Eddleston
interesting to note that no executions took place in Scotland Between1928& 1946

Posted by: Isobel 21st Feb 2004, 03:47am

I lived next to Barlinie prison. Does anyone remember the Manuel case .He was hung in Barlinie I guess some time around 1960

Posted by: martinjmurray 21st Feb 2004, 09:03am

QUOTE (Guest @ 19th Feb 2004, 08:22 PM)
Hi MartinI have only references to executions.
The Harkness trial they were both sentenced to hang but his wifes sentence was changed to life imprisonment.
As for the place of the murder 67 George St Whiteinch I think the propertys will still be there as I don`t think Partick or Whiteinch was part of Glasgow in the 1920s the girl they killed was only 14 years old

yes case was a strange oner as it seems she was the more likely perpatrator. asked his brother to help dispose of the body of elizabeth benjamin.true anti semitic reporting of the time constantly referred to her as "the jewess"

Posted by: GG 21st Feb 2004, 09:03am

Received from MJM in error via 'Reported Post':

Many thanks. I'm primarily interested in the executionsbut also in the background. I've got date on all executions and even cases where the person was reprieved such as Harkness's wife and more nutoriously Donald Forbes who went on to kill again. Interstingly I cant find 67 george street on a map! Similar problems with Neptune street as its all demolished and everyone whose been helpful is in Canada. As I was from Ayrshire its hard to get to know the areas as they were. Many thanks for this and any other help ou can give. Got some info on John Lyons cae from the granddaughter of John Lennie who was reprieed when Lyons was hanged many thanks for any assistance. Martin

--

Yes Manuel was Scotland's only serial killer haned in q1958. Many people think he was the last execution but there was one more in 1960, Tony Miller 19, for a robbery/murder in Queenspak recs, and another in Abercdeen in 1963. I used to be on the VC at Barlinnie.

--

Cases I refer to happened in the 1920-50 time frame. They were mainly random or diomestic crimes. They tend to show how we havemoved as now even multiplemurders arenot executed but these were. Carracher was desribed as a psychopath and killed two men in a fight, 5 years apart, Robertsons gassed their kids, Lyons was in the Cumbie and killed a guy with others in 1946 but only he was executed. The Harris brother were convicted of killing a guy in a fight but were both due to hang, younger one took the rap, older one reprieved, died in mid 1980's. Carracher firsat perso to face two murder trials, Harris brother unique in that they saved one of them themselves, Robertsons served only 3 years after reprieve shortest sentence. Harkness case had wife reprieved husbad hanged yet it emed more lokely she did it. Hope this helps.

Posted by: GG 21st Feb 2004, 09:38am

Note to martinjmurray:

Please use the 'Add Reply' options at the bottom of the page.

The 'Report' option is only for flagging up contentious posts.

GG.

Posted by: Guest 25th Feb 2004, 08:31pm

To Martinmurray
George St in Whiteinch is now Medwyn St

Posted by: Allan D.Sim 4th Mar 2004, 01:01pm

There was a saying in Glasgow, "you'll die facing the monument." It referred to the executions where the last thing the condemned person say was the Nelson's Monument on Glasgow Green. I cannot remember at moment if they took place at High Court or in Jail Square, but I think it was at High Court. sad.gif

Posted by: davygartshore 16th Aug 2004, 10:58am

Re the execution in 1960 of Tony Miller, what happened to his co-accused Denovan, when was he released and what is he doing now? Why have no film or television companies made a film on the Manuel case?

Posted by: davygartshore 17th Aug 2004, 10:44am

WHAT HAPPENED TO DENOVAN WHO WAS CONVICTED WITH TONY MILLER IN 1960? WHEN WAS HE RELEASED AND WHAT IS HE DOING NOW? WHAT HAVE NO TELEVISION OR FILM COMPANIES MADE A FILM ON THE MANUEL CASE

Posted by: Lynn Harris 17th Oct 2007, 11:31am

Hi there! I came accross this, looking for some info on my Grandfather, Paul Christopher Harris! Im the daughter of his son, Paul Harris! I know ur posts are from a while back, but I would be interested in finding out what more u found on the case, and happy to give u any little information I perhaps would have!

Thanks

Posted by: John Todd 23rd Mar 2008, 02:48pm

QUOTE (martinjmurray @ 16th Feb 2004, 07:20 PM) *
I am researching executions in Scotland and most happened due to cases in Glasgow. Additionally mosat of the areas are now demolished. eg Plantation: Blackburn street the only plce in Scotland where two murders 40 years apart led to executions, Neptune Stret in Govan here two brothers were due o be hanged until the day before one confessed. And the carraher murders in gorbals and townhead, until jimmy boyle the only man to be tried twice for murder. Can anyone help me as even Duke Street Prison site of many executions is no more.


One of my relations Patrick Leggett was the first man hanged in Scotland in the 20th centuary. You can read about the case at my family history website www.weetoddy.com under "The Whiteinch Murder" section, Like wise he was buried in Duke St prison and his body consumed with lime shells, I have all the courts records and copies of a diary that the wardens kept on him for 2 weeks prior to his execusion

Posted by: GG 13th Apr 2008, 04:47pm

From Yvonne Cortright, posted as a 'Report link' by mistake:

QUOTE
When I was a little girl on the way to visit my grandma in Carntyne, we had to take a tram connection to the Carntyne bus. I can remember all traffic , even the carthorses, was stopped and there were many people on the street standing in silence and I had a very eerie feeling. When my mum asked the conductor what was going on he told her that someone was being executed. All I can really remember was the cobbled street and the silence on the road.

I think this was in the late '40's or early '50's. I shall never forget this experience and it still haunts me today.

Posted by: Geraldine McNealey 29th May 2008, 04:57am

Hi

Its a bit late but wondered if you are still researching executions in glasgow. My cousin Jeannie Deveney (nee Todd) was murdered by her husband Patrick Deveney on 26 Feb 1952 at 115 Blackhall St. He battered her with a hammer and then strangled her with a necktie. He was hanged at Barliniie Prison on 29 May 1952. They had 5 young children.

Posted by: Guest Hutchie * 29th May 2008, 07:03pm

QUOTE (martinjmurray @ 16th Feb 2004, 07:20 PM) *
I am researching executions in Scotland and most happened due to cases in Glasgow. Additionally mosat of the areas are now demolished. eg Plantation: Blackburn street the only plce in Scotland where two murders 40 years apart led to executions, Neptune Stret in Govan here two brothers were due o be hanged until the day before one confessed. And the carraher murders in gorbals and townhead, until jimmy boyle the only man to be tried twice for murder. Can anyone help me as even Duke Street Prison site of many executions is no more.


Patrick Carraher, the so called Fiend of the Gorbals, was hanged in Barlinnie Prison on 6 April 1946, aged 40 years.

Posted by: martinjmurray 11th Sep 2008, 06:25pm

How do you know Claude Harris died in mid 1980's? I was trying to track him down for interview?
Also does anyone know of the wherabouts of James Douglas Denovan? who was the accomplice to Tony Miller of Govanhill who was Glasghow's last execution. He was 16 in 1961? He lived Calder Street, Miller was a few streets up.

Posted by: martinjmurray 11th Sep 2008, 06:28pm

QUOTE (Geraldine McNealey @ 29th May 2008, 06:01am) *
Hi

Its a bit late but wondered if you are still researching executions in glasgow. My cousin Jeannie Deveney (nee Todd) was murdered by her husband Patrick Deveney on 26 Feb 1952 at 115 Blackhall St. He battered her with a hammer and then strangled her with a necktie. He was hanged at Barliniie Prison on 29 May 1952. They had 5 young children.

Many thanks Yes any information would be great. I spoke with a guy qho was a guard in Barlinnie who said Deveney was a nice guy. Reports in paper said a psychopath! How are rthe Kids? I thought it was Blackburn Street Plantation? If so it was the only street in Scotlad where two murders led to hangings. A young boy was killed there 50 years earlier. All now rebuilt. Many thanks

Posted by: martinjmurray 11th Sep 2008, 06:44pm

QUOTE (Lynn Harris @ 17th Oct 2007, 12:35pm) *
Hi there! I came accross this, looking for some info on my Grandfather, Paul Christopher Harris! Im the daughter of his son, Paul Harris! I know ur posts are from a while back, but I would be interested in finding out what more u found on the case, and happy to give u any little information I perhaps would have!

Thanks


Hi Lynn, o sorry its taken so long but I lostmy log in. I have extensively reseacrched the case of your dad and his brother. Apparently they were drinking in a pub in Orkney Street or Kintra Street when he slashed somebody for saying saomething. They then at the behest of his brother in law, went to the house of a guy calledcMurray, no relation of mine as far as I know. This was because he had apparently assaulted his wife, who was his sister. A fight broke out and both Paul known as Christie and Claude were seen by a woman in a flat in Kintra street kicvking Martin Dunleavy.
He then was next seen coming out the close with a cut to the neck, and died in surgery at the southern general. There were four men charge, your GF, his brother their brother in law and a man from Ireland.
The other two were acquited and both Harris brothers were due to be executed. Thecase was of interest as only once in england were two brothers executed for the same murder.
They were both in the same cell and asked for paper. Then you GF wrote stating he had delivered the fatal blow. Claude was reprieved for a week initially, then given a life sentence. Niot sure hen he got out of jail but he died in a doss house in the mid 1980's choking on his own vomit.
Seems both has previous convictions, but nothing major. The wholwe areawas demolished when I started to look and is now breing rebuilt. Seems to have been very run down, as was spoken about in Sean Damer's book Glasgow for a siog as rough in 1920's. Accroding to press reports Martin Dunleavy's funeral had loads of people lining the streets as he was popular buyt I';ve no idea why. No idea if your GF actually knew him.
Apparently the kids in the house lowered themselves out the window to escape the fight. Got that in another book. I can be e mailed on martinjmurray77@hotmail.com. Any information would be useful. Told his wife to tell his kids, your dad and his sister not to drink. hope this helps. M

Posted by: martinjmurray 11th Sep 2008, 06:47pm

QUOTE (Geraldine McNealey @ 29th May 2008, 06:01am) *
Hi

Its a bit late but wondered if you are still researching executions in glasgow. My cousin Jeannie Deveney (nee Todd) was murdered by her husband Patrick Deveney on 26 Feb 1952 at 115 Blackhall St. He battered her with a hammer and then strangled her with a necktie. He was hanged at Barliniie Prison on 29 May 1952. They had 5 young children.

Hi Geraldine be gla of any indformation. I spke with Frank McQue who was a prison warden on death duty at BarL he described deveny as a nice guy. JHowever his report in the paper was that he was a psychopath. Had been violent tio o you cousin beforwe. What happened to the kids?
I thought they lived at 115 blackburn street. If so it was the only street in Scotland where two murders kllead to hanging. An wearlier one around 1905 of a young boy by his step father led to a hanging then too.
Sorry its late but I lost my log in details. M

Posted by: martinjmurray 11th Sep 2008, 06:50pm

QUOTE (davygartshore @ 17th Aug 2004, 11:48am) *
WHAT HAPPENED TO DENOVAN WHO WAS CONVICTED WITH TONY MILLER IN 1960? WHEN WAS HE RELEASED AND WHAT IS HE DOING NOW? WHAT HAVE NO TELEVISION OR FILM COMPANIES MADE A FILM ON THE MANUEL CASE

Hi I think Denovan may be dead. Not sure but heard nothing more. Another boy weas involved with them Crawford Mure he may still be around. Would like to finsd out abour Devovan. Saved by being 16. No documentrary about Manuel until recently I rthink.

Posted by: martinjmurray 11th Sep 2008, 06:51pm

QUOTE (Guest @ 18th Feb 2004, 03:06am) *
Hi Martinmurray if you tell me the years you are looking for,I have info on all the executions of the last century

Hi anything over the 20th Centuary. I'm trying to look at levels of murder. patterns of victims and wherther death penalty was a deterent.

Posted by: martinjmurray 11th Sep 2008, 06:53pm

QUOTE (GG @ 13th Apr 2008, 05:51pm) *
From Yvonne Cortright, posted as a 'Report link' by mistake:

Thanks for this. There were several executions at BarL late 1940's abnd a few more early tio mid 1950's, before Manual 1958 anmd Miller in 1961. m

Posted by: Rab 11th Sep 2008, 08:49pm

Here is a link to the only woman executed in Scotland in the 20th Century.
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/susan.html
Surprisingly, there were only 32 executions up to the removal of the death penalty in 1963.

Posted by: wee mags 11th Sep 2008, 10:06pm

after I came to America one of my older brothers friends had been killed by a young lad I had grown up with the young lads name was Clark,sorry I dont remember his first name but when I knew him he was a quiet young lad. then while visiting Glasgow in 1998 one of my old neighbours son had been found guilty of murder sad.gif

Posted by: martinjmurray 12th Sep 2008, 07:48pm

QUOTE (Rab @ 11th Sep 2008, 09:53pm) *
Here is a link to the only woman executed in Scotland in the 20th Century.
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/susan.html
Surprisingly, there were only 32 executions up to the removal of the death penalty in 1963.

Thans for thsat Rab. I found a woman in Gmrangemouth whose father had arrested Susan Newall in the close at Duke Street where she dumped the body. Yes only 322. 1900-1965 and the murder rate was a lott lower too. Yet they claim irt was ot ac deterent.! It was susopeneded in 1965 anmsd abolished in 1969.Cheers

Posted by: Tennscot 15th Sep 2008, 02:20am

I seem to remember a James Smith from Springburn being among the last to be hung in Scotland

Posted by: wellfield 15th Sep 2008, 03:44pm

QUOTE (Tennscot @ 14th Sep 2008, 08:24pm) *
I seem to remember a James Smith from Springburn being among the last to be hung in Scotland
You're right big brother,I think he was second last to be hung,I knew his brother Tony,they were from Blackhill,and the stabbing was at the Hibs Hall.

Posted by: martinjmurray 15th Sep 2008, 07:01pm

QUOTE (wellfield @ 15th Sep 2008, 04:48pm) *
You're right big brother,I think he was second last to be hung,I knew his brother Tony,they were from Blackhill,and the stabbing was at the Hibs Hall.

Is his brother still alive?

Posted by: wellfield 15th Sep 2008, 09:47pm

QUOTE (martinjmurray @ 15th Sep 2008, 01:05pm) *
Is his brother still alive?
I couldn't tell you,its been ages since I saw Tony Smith he'd be about 69 years old by now and went to St Roch's school 52-55 ish The whole Family was very well known in the 50s and 60s in Blackhill and may well still be around Glasgow----also ''martinjmurray'',a few months ago I came across a site that gave you all the execution dates and places in Scotland,I'm afraid I dont remember the name of it.We haven't had an execution in California for ages 'though there are more than 500 to 600 on death row---President Bush is the man to talk to about executions,his State of Texas is one of the leading Execution States,and Utah has finally done away with shooting their condemned---It's been proven over and over it's no detterant,and it costs millions to keep a man on death row here,I believe they appeal for about 20 years,or at least that's as long as some appeals take' though the Oklahoma Federal Building bomber was swiftly taken care of---Mexico won't extradite prioners back to the U.S if the death penalty is to be considered.

Posted by: Gayle Lyon 16th Sep 2008, 12:23pm

My great great uncle was John Lyon who was hung for murder in Barlinnie in 1946. Its popular knowledge in the family that he was innocent of the crime he was convicted of. I know basic facts about this because although even my mother wasn't born at the time, it is a subject i have always been interested in and even more so when it is a member of your own family! If anyone knows anything more about this case, esspecially about proof of his innocence then i would be very interested in hearing from them.

Posted by: martinjmurray 17th Sep 2008, 09:10pm

QUOTE (wellfield @ 15th Sep 2008, 10:51pm) *
I couldn't tell you,its been ages since I saw Tony Smith he'd be about 69 years old by now and went to St Roch's school 52-55 ish The whole Family was very well known in the 50s and 60s in Blackhill and may well still be around Glasgow----also ''martinjmurray'',a few months ago I came across a site that gave you all the execution dates and places in Scotland,I'm afraid I dont remember the name of it.We haven't had an execution in California for ages 'though there are more than 500 to 600 on death row---President Bush is the man to talk to about executions,his State of Texas is one of the leading Execution States,and Utah has finally done away with shooting their condemned---It's been proven over and over it's no detterant,and it costs millions to keep a man on death row here,I believe they appeal for about 20 years,or at least that's as long as some appeals take' though the Oklahoma Federal Building bomber was swiftly taken care of---Mexico won't extradite prioners back to the U.S if the death penalty is to be considered.

Many thanks that's the kind of insight I bneed to giive a balanced to m research. The contray point is the rise in murder since abolition is massive.. Hundered in Glasgow every year. Used to be headlines in 1950's arounf that case. now page 14. Many thanks for this. The Guy he killed was a martin joseph malone. I'm martin joseph too. He had a younf family. A guard from Bar L at the time I spoke too recentlysaid "spider" smith was a bad guy. Family infamous. Talies with your idea.

Posted by: martinjmurray 17th Sep 2008, 09:14pm

QUOTE (Gayle Lyon @ 16th Sep 2008, 01:27pm) *
My great great uncle was John Lyon who was hung for murder in Barlinnie in 1946. Its popular knowledge in the family that he was innocent of the crime he was convicted of. I know basic facts about this because although even my mother wasn't born at the time, it is a subject i have always been interested in and even more so when it is a member of your own family! If anyone knows anything more about this case, esspecially about proof of his innocence then i would be very interested in hearing from them.

Hi Gayle, This is interesting. I heard he was stuitched up by his co-accused who werre related. Thew rest of them came from Gorbals but John Lyon didn't? is that right. Why do you feel he was innocant? Basis was they went across the river in a tram, jumped off looking for folk from another gang, and a guy who was a recently demobbed sailor was stabbed to death. If you e mail me on martinjmurray77@hotmail. com I'll send you what I have got on this. It was first hanging in Glasgow for 17 years

Posted by: martinjmurray 17th Sep 2008, 10:09pm

QUOTE (martinjmurray @ 17th Sep 2008, 10:18pm) *
Hi Gayle, This is interesting. I heard he was stuitched up by his co-accused who werre related. Thew rest of them came from Gorbals but John Lyon didn't? is that right. Why do you feel he was innocant? Basis was they went across the river in a tram, jumped off looking for folk from another gang, and a guy who was a recently demobbed sailor was stabbed to death. If you e mail me on martinjmurray77@hotmail. com I'll send you what I have got on this. It was first hanging in Glasgow for 17 years

In my research I came accross a film made in Barlinnie of the execution shed which was in D Hall. Now used to house Youn g Offenders. The guy in it I have spoken too on the phone. May give you siome contemoporary info. I was on VC later that decade.Things had nbeen demolished by then. site is shootingpelope.org. or look up hanging with frank. Its a 15 minute film.

Posted by: kmacc 18th Sep 2008, 05:14am

Hi Gale, John Lyon was the first man to be hanged in barlinnie,
he was with the Crosbie brothers who were his brothers in law
they came from Govan.
There was a gang fight in washington st and John Brady was killed.
John Lyon and Alex Crosbie,Alex was sentenced to death on his 18th
birthday, but later it was changed to life inprisonment, he done ten years
and came out in 1956.
I spoke to him then and he told me that John Lyon was innocent but he never
woud say who did it

Posted by: Paul Kelly 18th Sep 2008, 12:54pm

QUOTE (Tennscot @ 15th Sep 2008, 05:24am) *
I seem to remember a James Smith from Springburn being among the last to be hung in Scotland



QUOTE (wellfield @ 15th Sep 2008, 06:48pm) *
You're right big brother,I think he was second last to be hung,I knew his brother Tony,they were from Blackhill,and the stabbing was at the Hibs Hall.



QUOTE (wellfield @ 16th Sep 2008, 12:51am) *
I couldn't tell you,its been ages since I saw Tony Smith he'd be about 69 years old by now and went to St Roch's school 52-55 ish The whole Family was very well known in the 50s and 60s in Blackhill and may well still be around Glasgow



QUOTE (martinjmurray @ 18th Sep 2008, 12:14am) *
Used to be headlines in 1950's around that case. now page 14. Many thanks for this. The Guy he killed was a martin joseph malone. I'm martin joseph too. He had a young family. A guard from Bar L at the time I spoke too recently said "spider" smith was a bad guy. Family infamous. Talies with your idea.


I remember coming across this Daily Record article while GOOGLING Garngad (Royston).

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/special-reports/crimes-that-rocked-scotland/2007/10/19/glasgow-torn-apart-by-knife-fight-death-at-hibernian-hall-86908-19978330/

Posted by: Paul Kelly 18th Sep 2008, 03:42pm

Hi Martin Murray.

The following is a list of all the executions in Scottish prisons in the 20th century. All 34 of these executions were for murder.

http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/scottish.html

I am sure there is a list of Glasgow's 19th century public executions on display at the People's Palace in Glasgow. It is a much longer list than the above list and it is unbelievable by today's standards what some of these people were executed for. The 19th century executions were by no means all for murder. Many were for robbery and housebreaking.

The last public execution in Glasgow was held on Glasgow Green in 1865.

Posted by: wellfield 18th Sep 2008, 04:11pm

Thanks Paul Kelly for that article from the Daily Record about the coviction of James Smith.

Posted by: Diane Deveney 21st Sep 2008, 09:18pm

If Geraldine mcNealey is still following this discussion i would be very interested in making contact with her. I am Patrick Gallagher Deveney's grandaughter.

Posted by: martinjmurray 23rd Sep 2008, 05:03pm

QUOTE (kmacc @ 18th Sep 2008, 06:18am) *
Hi Gale, John Lyon was the first man to be hanged in barlinnie,
he was with the Crosbie brothers who were his brothers in law
they came from Govan.
There was a gang fight in washington st and John Brady was killed.
John Lyon and Alex Crosbie,Alex was sentenced to death on his 18th
birthday, but later it was changed to life inprisonment, he done ten years
and came out in 1956.
I spoke to him then and he told me that John Lyon was innocent but he never
woud say who did it

I believe he's now dead? am I right? Where did John Lyobns come from?

Posted by: martinjmurray 23rd Sep 2008, 05:04pm

QUOTE (wee mags @ 11th Sep 2008, 11:10pm) *
after I came to America one of my older brothers friends had been killed by a young lad I had grown up with the young lads name was Clark,sorry I dont remember his first name but when I knew him he was a quiet young lad. then while visiting Glasgow in 1998 one of my old neighbours son had been found guilty of murder sad.gif

Hi when was that? Don't know this case. I'm trying to research a book.

Posted by: martinjmurray 23rd Sep 2008, 05:05pm

QUOTE (Tennscot @ 15th Sep 2008, 03:24am) *
I seem to remember a James Smith from Springburn being among the last to be hung in Scotland

Your right. He was about the third last in Barl and 4tyh last in Scorland. Info on it at hanging with frank. M

Posted by: martinjmurray 23rd Sep 2008, 05:09pm

QUOTE (Gallusbisom @ 20th Feb 2004, 01:15am) *
One of my cousins, born in the Plantation area, was a policeman then in the CID, perhaps he may know something of the history of these crimes, I will ask. Problem is, he does not, at this time, use a computer, but I will write to him, he still lives in Glasgow, and his wife's father was also in the police force, maybe they have some old stories? Will try. Where exactly did these crimes occur and when and what happened-sorry I am not familiar with them, but will forward your info. Hope it works out.

Hi one was in 1952 rthe other was in 1905 but both led to somebody being hanged, a uniquwe street in Scotland

Posted by: martinjmurray 23rd Sep 2008, 05:10pm

QUOTE (GG @ 21st Feb 2004, 10:42am) *
Note to martinjmurray:

Please use the 'Add Reply' options at the bottom of the page.

The 'Report' option is only for flagging up contentious posts.

GG.

Cheers I'm useless on a computer. M

Posted by: martinjmurray 23rd Sep 2008, 05:16pm

QUOTE (Diane Deveney @ 21st Sep 2008, 10:22pm) *
If Geraldine mcNealey is still following this discussion i would be very interested in making contact with her. I am Patrick Gallagher Deveney's grandaughter.

Hi Diane, I sopoke with Frank McKue whose got a video on line alled hanging with franmk. He said Patrick Deveney was alright. Press reports at the time were not great. Are hisd familtyall dead now if your a grand daughter. Apparenttlty after the murder he went to his mum's in portman street, then to his brother's in greenock. He was an ex soldier. The street they lived in was the only one in Scotland to have had two murders leading to a hanging. Its rebuilt now right enough. Any info on the case would be useful. Cheers

Posted by: Diane Deveney 23rd Sep 2008, 07:24pm

Hi
Patrick Deveney had 5 children. 3 are still alive and the 2 youngest are dead. My dad was aged 7 at the time of the murder. The children were in school at the time of the incident but my dad recalls coming home from school and witnessing the grusome aftermath. The family were placed in care and experienced a traumatic and stigmatised childhood. All 5 went on to marry and have families of their own. Betty died aged 36 of alcohol related problems and Jimmy died aged 50 of a sudden cardiac arrest. George, Hugh and Sadie are still alive and fairly well. We are a close family. My cousin did a lot of research into this a few years ago so I'll ask her if she knows anything which may help you with your research.

Posted by: martinjmurray 20th Oct 2008, 07:38pm

QUOTE (Diane Deveney @ 23rd Sep 2008, 08:28pm) *
Hi
Patrick Deveney had 5 children. 3 are still alive and the 2 youngest are dead. My dad was aged 7 at the time of the murder. The children were in school at the time of the incident but my dad recalls coming home from school and witnessing the grusome aftermath. The family were placed in care and experienced a traumatic and stigmatised childhood. All 5 went on to marry and have families of their own. Betty died aged 36 of alcohol related problems and Jimmy died aged 50 of a sudden cardiac arrest. George, Hugh and Sadie are still alive and fairly well. We are a close family. My cousin did a lot of research into this a few years ago so I'll ask her if she knows anything which may help you with your research.

Many thanks I think it must hacve been tough. I supoorted kids whose mother had been murdered in the 1980's so I have seen first hand what its like. THe 1950's wouyld have been much harsher. M

Posted by: Alan Bruce 23rd Oct 2008, 11:36am

QUOTE (Isobel @ 21st Feb 2004, 04:51am) *
I lived next to Barlinie prison. Does anyone remember the Manuel case .He was hung in Barlinie I guess some time around 1960
Hello, Peter Manual was hanged in July 1958 Here is a site you may wish to look at The site has all the info on Peter http://www.murderuk.com/serial_peter_manuel.html

Posted by: GuestRON 10th Nov 2008, 01:43pm

One of my relations Patrick Leggett was the first man hanged in Scotland in the 20th centuary. You can read about the case at my family history website www.weetoddy.com under "The Whiteinch Murder" section, Like wise he was buried in Duke St prison and his body consumed with lime shells, I have all the courts records and copies of a diary that the wardens kept on him for 2 weeks prior to his execusion

John,

How did you get the court records and prison diary? there are some court records I'd like to see, but I've no idea how to go about it.

RON

Posted by: Rhona Kinasz 1st Dec 2008, 03:01pm

QUOTE (Gayle Lyon @ 16th Sep 2008, 12:22pm) *
My great great uncle was John Lyon who was hung for murder in Barlinnie in 1946. Its popular knowledge in the family that he was innocent of the crime he was convicted of. I know basic facts about this because although even my mother wasn't born at the time, it is a subject i have always been interested in and even more so when it is a member of your own family! If anyone knows anything more about this case, esspecially about proof of his innocence then i would be very interested in hearing from them.

Hi Gayle
John Lyon was a relative of mine too and it was common knowledge in our family that he was innocent of the crime. I probably can't add anything to what you already know - I certainly don't have proof but I am researching the case so who knows. My auntie said, he told his father the night before the execution that he was innocent. If you want to exchange notes you can contact me on rhona.kinasz@btinternet.com.
Rhona

Posted by: william campbell 22nd Apr 2009, 01:39pm

QUOTE (martinjmurray @ 17th Sep 2008, 09:43pm) *
Hi Gayle, This is interesting. I heard he was stuitched up by his co-accused who werre related. Thew rest of them came from Gorbals but John Lyon didn't? is that right. Why do you feel he was innocant? Basis was they went across the river in a tram, jumped off looking for folk from another gang, and a guy who was a recently demobbed sailor was stabbed to death. If you e mail me on martinjmurray77@hotmail. com I'll send you what I have got on this. It was first hanging in Glasgow for 17 years

Hi Gayle , My names William Campbell And John was my dads brother and his mother was Lizzie Lyons she stayed with us till she died on 2nd december 1972 at 7.30 in the morning it was a Saturday i was 15 at the time I remember it like it was yesterday she was a brilliant nanna we all lived in Alloa and Johns picture was above her bed he had an army uniform on I don't know the full story but i was told he went out with his 2 brother in laws and they were at the bus / tram station John was 17 at the time and they met a sailor and a fight broke out the sailor was stabbed and died but by the time they went to court he was 18 it was one of the brother in laws that stabbed him Johns wife was seemingly having an affair and she stood up in court and said she seen John do it so he was found guilty. After John was hanged lizzie had a nervous breakdown it took her years to get over it. I dont think she ever did . If you read this Gayle you can contact me at williamcampbell11@hotmail.com or if anyone knows Gayles e.mail address could you please send it to mine would be very much appreciated.

Posted by: chakota100 15th May 2009, 05:56pm

QUOTE (Lynn Harris @ 17th Oct 2007, 12:00pm) *
Hi there! I came accross this, looking for some info on my Grandfather, Paul Christopher Harris! Im the daughter of his son, Paul Harris! I know ur posts are from a while back, but I would be interested in finding out what more u found on the case, and happy to give u any little information I perhaps would have!

Thanks



Hi Lynn,
I came across this topic when researching my family tree. My Father was called Harry Harris who is the brother of paul. Which in turn means i am related to you. Can you respond to this please as i have no other way to contact you.
Many Thanks ......... Harry

Posted by: ninab 6th Jul 2009, 06:45am

My cousin was the Anthony Miller you were talking about earlier on. He was one of 4 who were involved in the murder of a doctor. Although he wasn't a homosexual, the crime was related to homosexual activities. As Anthony had his 18th birthday while in custody, by the time the trial came around he was deemed old enough to be hung. The other three had varying sentences, one was detained under her majesty's pleasure, one got life and the other one who turned Queens evidence only got probation!! It totally destroyed my aunt and uncles life. She died about 6 years later. I believ it all took place in Green Park? But as I was also not very old was not told all the details so if anyone knows anything else I would love to know.

Posted by: dmf 6th Jul 2009, 07:34pm

Hi Ninab,

I have a few facts that may help you with your quest for info.

Anthony Miller and James Denovan were arrested for the murder of a small time Glasgow crook, John Cremin, who at that time was calling himself John Thompson. When Miller & Denovan went on trial, they were also accused of 3 other charges of assault and robbery. All of the crimes were committed n Queens Park on Glasgow's south side.

Their modus operandi was that Denovan, being 16 years old and 'pretty', would go into the toilets at the park, which was a well-known homosexual meeting place, and entice a male from there, with the promise of further secual behaviour elsehwere in the park. During the walk to this place, Miller would jump out and both youths would attack and rob the other man. Of course, with homosexuality being unlawful at the time, these crimes were very rarely reported to police. One of the men who did report it was a Dr James McKay from Hickman Street. This may be where some of your confusion comes in.

They went too far with the violence and John Cremin received a massive blow to the head with a large lump of wood which killed him outright. The police at first thought that Cremin had suffered the injury falling over after having had a heart attack! It was fully five months before they were arrested for the crime. This happened because Denovan was caught in the toilets, engaging in a sexual act with another male and when he was questioned by police, they found a clipping of a newspaper story about the search for 'Cremin's' relatives, which police thought was a strange thing for a young lad to be carryingabout with him.

Both were found guilty but as Denovan was only 16, he was detained during HM's Pleasure, while Miller was sentenced to be hanged. There was the usual appeal and vociferous outcry from public bodies and petititions for a reprieve, but neither came. It is all the more galling when the case was put against anothger murder case from Dumfries, in which that murderer, 25 year old Robert Dickson, was reprieved for premeditated murder. It could be argued that Miller and Denovan's murder was not premeditated.

Miller was hanged at Barlinnie Prison on 22nd December 1960 (last hanging at Bar-L).
All the gory details of this case and 24 other Glasgow cases are in my book 'The Book Of Glasgow Murders', which is on sale at all major bookshops now. (sorry about the plug).

Hope this helps. Any more info needed then just ask.


dmf

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 6th Jul 2009, 10:49pm

I would be interested in info regarding a Thomas E Dowds of Penicuik, convicted of murder after hanging was abolished and served his time in Peterhead.
He was the son of a cousine of my dad. Might have been in the Mid to late sixties, can't rightly remember the era but remember the case; guy having an affair with his wife.

Posted by: ninab 7th Jul 2009, 07:45am

Thank you so much for the info. I have always wondered what really happened...I was told by my mother that they had only got caught as they were having a fight in a cafe and as you say the police found the clipping. Also told that the doctor (whose death I was under the impression, that Anthony was hung for) had actually drowned in a puddle of water!! There was never any mention of this other guy at all!! They seem to have been doing it for a long time. I know Anthony wasn't an angel but he wasn't a real rough boy either. We used to have the most terrific fun together. I can still remember the Christmas that he was hung as Aunt Marie stayed with us and they (the adults) all stayed up all night long praying for a reprieve. The doctor came in about 7.00am and gave Aunt Marie an injection. Their marriage broke up before the trial and I was told,again by my mother, that it was because my Aunt didn't think my uncle had done enough to "save" Anthony!!
I would love to buy your book. I live here in Germany so I would need to know the full details so that my book shop could order it for me. Thanks again for all the info.

Posted by: ninab 7th Jul 2009, 07:48am

I forgot to mention also that another cousin of mine!!! Henry Forbes was also convicted of murder. He killed his mother Annie Forbes but I am almost sure he was put into a mental prison!! It also happened in Glasgow.Do you know of his case? He killed her with an axe because (I believe) she wouldn't lend him any money!!

Posted by: dmf 7th Jul 2009, 08:10pm

Hi Ninab

Glad to set the record straight. You can get details of my book from the publishers wedsite at

www.nwp.co.uk

As regards you other query, I will check my notes and get back to you soonest.

Hi TeeHeeHee,

Again, I'll look out my notes and get the info you ask for.


dmf

Posted by: ninab 8th Jul 2009, 06:51am

I have ordered your book DMF and having it delivered to my caravan which is in Kent. Some friends are going there today for 10 days and will bring it back with them (Save quite a bit of postage!!)
I am quite new to the board as you know and have only just found out that you were a policeman in Glasgow. My eldest son started off his Police career in Glasgow. He was there for about 3/4 years before moving out to Perth.Western Australia. He is now Asst.Commissioner and at the moment is in charge of Counter-Terrorism. He often talks about his days in the Glasgow force, and it is with fond memories I can assure you. When he was over the last time I know he went to visit some of his ex.colleagues. You may know him. His name is John McRoberts. He was born 1958.He was my first son from my previous marriage.
Would be lovely if you did as he is always looking for his old pals.

Posted by: ninab 8th Jul 2009, 12:43pm

God it must be the age or something!!
My Uncle was Tommy Forbes and my Aunt was Annie...It was their son John who murdered her. They used to live in Denmark Street. He was put away in a mental Institution and my other cousin Henry is trying to trace his family to see if he is dead or alive!! What a bunch eh?
You might be able to find them now!!

Posted by: dmf 13th Jul 2009, 07:12pm

Hi TeeHeeHee,

I have some information for you.

On 5th December 1965, a man was found murdered in a cul-de-sac in Duns Berwickshire. The next day, a man named Dowds was arrested and eventually charged with the murder. Dowds went on trial at the High Court in Jedburgh on March 21 1966. It was a short trial as it lasted less than a day. I think he may well have pled guilty. If this is the case you are referring to, then I might be able to get more info to fill in the many blanks.


Hi Ninab,

Having looked at my records, I have discovered that there have been many bad people called Forbes. Can you give me an approximate date so that I can narrow it down. This is also getting spooky because I lived around the corner from Denmark Street (in Mansion St.) during the 60's and early 70's. We used to play football in Denmark Street because it had the smoothest surface in the city.

All I need is a date. Oh - and thanks for the book order............

cheers,

dmf

Posted by: ninab 13th Jul 2009, 07:20pm

Best I can say would be the fifties. His name was John Forbes. Father Thomas and mother Annie.
Thanks for all your help. Eagerly awaiting your book to arrive!

Posted by: maryann 6th Aug 2009, 04:02pm

QUOTE (Gayle Lyon @ 16th Sep 2008, 12:40pm) *
My great great uncle was John Lyon who was hung for murder in Barlinnie in 1946. Its popular knowledge in the family that he was innocent of the crime he was convicted of. I know basic facts about this because although even my mother wasn't born at the time, it is a subject i have always been interested in and even more so when it is a member of your own family! If anyone knows anything more about this case, esspecially about proof of his innocence then i would be very interested in hearing from them.

my grandad, alexander lyon was the brother of john lyon hanged in barlinnie, i believe he was around 19 years of age, was at glasgow barrowlands at a dance.he was with his girlfriend and her brothers, i do not know their name.,however on that night a fight started and johns girlfriends brother stabbed some 1 at the dance. john lyon was asked by the brother if he would take the blame as he had never been in trouble before, unlike himself had several offences, believing john would maybe do a bit of jail time, only it didnt turn out that way.as the members of both families sat in the court they watched the judge tell john he would be hanged for this murder, that he did not commit. not a single person from the other family uttered a word as they watched john taken away...... not even his girlfriend. i have tried to find newspaper archives in relation to this, so far i have had no luck

Posted by: GG 15th Aug 2009, 09:34am

Hi Gayle and Maryann,

I've managed to find some information relating to the execution of John Lyon:

QUOTE
From: The Herald, June 6, 1995

Walking the fateful eight steps, by James Freeman

The first man to be hanged in Barlinnie was 21-year-old John Lyon -- on February 8, 1946. Lyon was executed for his part in the murder of on October 20, 1945, in Washington Street, Glasgow, of John Brady, a Royal Navy sailor awaiting his discharge papers.

The previous hanging in the city was in Duke Street Prison 17 years before when George Reynolds was executed for killing a bakehouse fireman. In earlier times a black flag was flown from prisons to show an execution had taken place, but this practice had been discontinued by 1946.

The first indication the execution had been carried out was a typewritten notice pinned on the prison gate at 8.15am. It read: "We the undersigned hereby declare that sentence of death was this day executed on John Lyon, in the prison of Barlinnie, in our presence."

This was followed by the signatures of two magistrates, Bailie James Duff and Bailie Hugh Fraser, of Mr Robert Richmond, deputy town clerk, of Mr J.P. Mayo, the Barlinnie governor, Dr G.M. Scott, the medical officer and the Barlinnie chaplain, the Rev John Campbell.

The Glasgow Herald of the day recorded that police held up about 70 spectators on the private roadway about 100 yards from the prison gates. After the main party had left the prison, the spectators were allowed to approach the gates. Lyon's younger brother, his sister-in-law, and his father-in-law, Mr Robert Crosbie, were among those who read the notice.

At an inquiry before Sheriff Macdiarmid at the County Buildings, Glasgow, Mr Mayo, the governor, gave evidence that the sentence was carried out at two minutes past eight and the body buried within the prison precinct. The two magistrates also gave evidence, Bailie Duff saying he had asked the prisoner if he was John Lyon and if he had anything to say. The prisoner gave his name and added he had nothing to say. ...

The men hanged at Barlinnie between 1946 and 1960:

February 8, 1946 -- John Lyon, 21
April 6, 1946 -- Patrick Carraher, 39
August 10, 1946 -- John Caldwell, 20
October 30, 1950 -- Paul Christopher Harris, 28
December 16, 1950 -- James Ronald Robertson, 33
April 12, 1952 -- James Smith
May 29, 1952 -- Patrick Gallacher Deveney, 42
January 26, 1953 -- George Francis Shaw
July 11, 1958 -- Peter Manuel, 32
December 22, 1960 -- Anthony (Tony) Miller, 19.

GG.

Posted by: GG 15th Aug 2009, 09:46am

Of wider interest is this from the Daily Record earlier this year:

QUOTE
It is a widely held misconception that Peter Manuel was the last man hanged in Scotland. That dubious honour went to Harry Burnett. He was one of 34 people hanged in Scotland in the 20th century. Here is the macabre roll of honour

12/11/1902
Patrick Leggett Duke St. Glasgow. Victim - Sarah Jane Leggett

26/07/1904
Thomas Gunning Duke St. Glasgow. Victim - Agnes Allen

14/11/1905
Pasha Liffey Duke St. Glasgow. Victim - Mary Jane Welsh

05/03/1908
Joseph Hume Inverness. Victim - John Barclay Smith

19/08/1908
Edward Johnstone Perth. Victim - Jane Wallace (Withers)

16/07/1909
Alexander EdmundstonePerth. Victim - Michael Swinton Brown

02/10/1913
Patrick Higgins Calton Edinburgh. Victims - William Higgins, John Higgins

16/05/1917
Thomas McGuinessDuke St. Glasgow. Victim - Alexander Imlach

11/11/1919
James AdamsDuke St. Glasgow Victim -Mary Doyle (Kane)

26/05/1920
Albert James Fraser Duke St. Glasgow. Victim - Henry Senior

26/05/1920
James Rollins Duke St. Glasgow. Victim - Henry Senior

21/02/1922
William Harkness Duke St. Glasgow. Victim - Elizabeth Benjamin

11/06/1923
John Henry Savage Calton Edinburgh. Victim - Wilhelmina Nicolson (Grierson)

10/10/1923
Susan Newell Duke St. Glasgow. Victim - John Johnston

30/10/1923
Philip Murray Calton, Edinburgh. Victim - William Ronald Cree

24/09/1925
John Keen Duke St. Glasgow. Victim - Noorh Mohammed

24/01/1928
James McKay Duke St. Glasgow. Victim - Agnes Arbuckle

03/08/1928
George Reynolds Duke St. Glasgow. Victim - Thomas Lee

13/08/1928
Allen Wales Saughton, Edinburgh. Victim - Isabella Wales

08/02/1946
John Lyon Barlinnie, Glasgow. Victim - John Brady

06/04/1946
Patrick Carraher Barlinnie, Glasgow. Victim - John Gordon

10/08/1946
John Caldwell Barlinnie, Glasgow. Victim - James Straiton

06/02/1948
Stanislaw Miszka Perth. Victim - Catherine McIntyre

30/10/1950
Christopher Harris Barlinnie, Glasgow. Victim - Martin Dunleavy

16/12/1950
James Robertson Barlinnie, Glasgow. Victim - Catherine McCluskey

15/09/1951
Robert Dobie Smith Saughton, Edinburgh. Victim - William Gibson

12/04/1952
James Smith Barlinnie Glasgow. Victim - Martin Joseph Malone

29/05/1952
Patrick Gallagher Deveney Barlinnie, Glasgow. Victim - Jeannie Deveney

26/01/1953 George Francis Shaw Barlinnie, Glasgow. Victim - Michael Connolly (Conly)

23/04/1954
John Lynch Saughton Edinburgh. Victims - Lesley Jean Nisbet (Sinclair), Margaret Curran (Johnson)

23/06/1954
George Alexander Robertson Saughton Edinburgh. Victims - Elizabeth Robertson, George Alexander Robertson

11/07/1958
Peter Manuel Barlinnie Glasgow. Victims - Marion Hunter McDonald Watt, Vivienne Isabella Reid Watt, Margaret Hunter Brown, Isabelle Wallace Cooke, Peter James Smart, Doris Smart, Michael Smart

22/12/1960
Anthony Miller Barlinnie Glasgow. Victim - John Cremin

15/08/1963
Henry John Burnett Aberdeen. Victim - Thomas Guyan

All of these executions were for murder. There were 12 hangings at Duke Street jail in Glasgow prior to closure in 1955, then 10 at Glasgow's Barlinnie. Four were carried out in Edinburgh's Saughton, with three at the Calton jail in the city before it closed. There were three at Perth and one each at Aberdeen and Inverness. Susan Newell was the only woman hanged.

GG.

Posted by: Venus 16th Aug 2009, 09:51pm

Ten or eleven years ago I was in Barlinnie(on business I may add)and in one of the wings which was being renovated when I got talking as one does to one of the officers. For those of you who have never been in the place,and Im quite sure that is the majority, there is a large grassy area on the left hand side as you go through the inner gate.Getting back to my conversation and obviously in an effort to impress me the officer informed me that behind one of the doors was the area where executions took place.It was quite chilling to be true.Anyway,suitably shook up we went outside where I innocently
asked if the executed persons were buried on the grassy area I mentioned.The officer looked at me,shook his head and looked down at the ground right next to the wall and said,"Manuel".
There on the ground was a clear reinstatement of the original surface."In there with lime"
That conversation always stuck in my mind,whether it was a wind up or not I dont know.What I do know is that they had to put the corpse somewhere in the prison as I think that was part of the death sentence upon the guilty person.

Posted by: dmf 16th Aug 2009, 11:22pm

Hi Venus,

Have a look at the following...............

http://shootingpeople.org/watch/film.php?film_id=43269

You'll see that the burial sites are against the wall of one of the halls of the old prison. I too have seen that gressy area and there is a little 'wishing well' area which signifies a 'memorial garden' affair. But there are no burials against the back wall...it's too new. The video will keep you right.

In response to Maryann's posting. John Lyon was convicted of murder during a gang fight in Washington Street, Anderston. It was not in a dance hall. Also, John Lyon was married at this time, I believe it to be to the sister of two of his co-accused, Crosbie. He began his married life by staying with his in-laws at 150 Jamieson Street, Govanhill and it was from there that he was arrested. According to court records, Lyon was 21 at the time of his trial in December 1945. He was executed, after an unsuccessful appeal, in February 1946.

Two others were sentenced to death along with Lyon, but were reprieved after an appeal was successful in their case. When the sentecnes were passed in court, a spontaneous round of applause broke out and the four accused were taken down the stairs to the cells below. One of them, whose identity is unknown to this day, shouted 'Happy New Year'. So from that, there does seem to have been some kind of response rather than the silence you suggest.

Hope all of this is some help to you............


dmf

Posted by: tamhickey 17th Aug 2009, 01:34am

Dmf, thanks for the link to the video. Although macabre in some respects, it was a fascinating insight to a social history not long gone.

Posted by: Venus 17th Aug 2009, 06:17pm

Dmf,
Ive come to the conclusion that the prison officer was telling the truth.

Posted by: dmf 17th Aug 2009, 07:27pm

Venus,

Do you mean the one you spoke to or the one in the video?


dmf

Posted by: Venus 18th Aug 2009, 08:49am

DMF,
Thanks for putting on the video,unfortunately my pc wasnt performing too well and to be honest with you it is not a subject that greatly interests me.From what I did see and recall from my visit to the place I think the man I spoke to then was telling me the true facts about the disposal of the executed men.
Awra best.

Posted by: johnbeat 24th Aug 2009, 05:12pm

Does anyone know anything about a triple murder in Inglefield Street in the Govanhill area in March 1957 It was a mother & her son & daughter, The mother was Elizabeth O'Donnell. Ive been told the murderer was a man called Sconnie McNaughton, but I cannot find ANYTHING on the net about this. Also can someone tell me how you go about getting a Coroners Inquest report?
I'll be grateful for any help or links to search for further information
Ta in advance
JB

Posted by: Venus 24th Aug 2009, 07:01pm

Johnbeat....Im sorry I cannot throw any light on this subject,however you might like to be advised that here in Scotland we do not have Coroners.I dont know what the procedure was 50 years ago but if a similar incident happened today the matter would be investigated by the Lord Advocate through his agents which are the Procurators Fiscal and the Police.The police doing all the usual investigations etc and therafter reporting the case to the Fiscal for consideration of a prosecution.It may well be the case that if the perpetrator had been released from prison/state hospital having been convicted of a previous grevious crime then a Public enquiry would ensue to establish the circumstances whereby he was released to re offend.Hope this has been helpful and you get the information you are after.

Posted by: johnbeat 24th Aug 2009, 08:49pm

Venus
Thank you for your help. The thing I dont get is that I cant find anything on the internet regarding this case. All I have come up with is the death certificates of the 3 victims who died the same day - cause of death unknown. All of which I find very strange. I have a personal interest in this case which is why I am trying to find out about it.

e-mail johnbeat@hotmail.com

johnbeat

Posted by: stratson 25th Aug 2009, 12:54pm

If my memory serves me the accused McNaughton pleaded guilty and there was no trial.
Apparently this was accepted by the crown.
This was a first as there always had to be a trial in a murder case.
At the time people were astonished by no trial.

Posted by: dmf 25th Aug 2009, 05:24pm

Hi johnbeat,

You might have difficulty trying to get any information out of the authorties i.e. Crown Office or National Archives of Scotland. I had a similar enquiry about a case from 1948 and their answer was simply that the records were sealed for a 75 year period. You will have more joy looking up the newspapers of the day. From my own records, McNaughton was charged on 25th March 1957 with the murders which happened the day before. He appeared in court on 29th March and then again on 21st June. I think it was on this date that he pled guilty. His sentence was deferred until his final court appearance on 1st July 1957.


dmf

Posted by: johnbeat 26th Aug 2009, 07:23am

DMF - Sratson (again)
Thanks for that, at least now I know there was a murder. I think your right & I will have to try newspaper archives.
JB

Posted by: carmella 27th Aug 2009, 04:41pm

I agree with DMF regarding the National Archives held at West Register House in Edinburgh. I have on occasion, however, been able to access cases which were under the 75 year rule, but opened sooner. It might be worth trying, you can contact them at the West Search Room.

Newspapers such as those held in the Archives at the Mitchell Library in Glasgow would be available to you, and often the Herald Index is a good place to start.

I have sent you an email.

Posted by: ninab 9th Oct 2009, 06:24pm

Hi DMF..Thought I would let you know that I have read your book, cover to cover...It was really brilliant...I found it truly interesting....Rudi thinks I am creepy, readind about all the murders but I loved it.
Did you by any chance manage to find out anything about John Forbes?
Anyway, once again, thank you for an interesting read.

Posted by: dmf 10th Oct 2009, 09:52am

Hi Ninab,..........Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad you enjoyed the book.

As for John Forbes....I have nothing new but I have not been researching stuff recently but it is on my list of 'things to do', so rest assured, I will get around to it as soon as.

Posted by: *michele* 16th Oct 2009, 09:40pm

I believe the forbes family you are talking about are related to me, my father mentioned his cousin killing his mother. They came from Strabane in Ireland in 1905, Micheal (my grandfather), tommy, henry who was born in glasgow, they lived in anderston. I have all relations going back email and I can give you a copy.

Posted by: Glenn 23rd Oct 2009, 08:11am

QUOTE (Venus @ 16th Aug 2009, 10:50pm) *
Ten or eleven years ago I was in Barlinnie(on business I may add)and in one of the wings which was being renovated when I got talking as one does to one of the officers. For those of you who have never been in the place,and Im quite sure that is the majority, there is a large grassy area on the left hand side as you go through the inner gate.Getting back to my conversation and obviously in an effort to impress me the officer informed me that behind one of the doors was the area where executions took place.It was quite chilling to be true.Anyway,suitably shook up we went outside where I innocently
asked if the executed persons were buried on the grassy area I mentioned.The officer looked at me,shook his head and looked down at the ground right next to the wall and said,"Manuel".
There on the ground was a clear reinstatement of the original surface."In there with lime"
That conversation always stuck in my mind,whether it was a wind up or not I dont know.What I do know is that they had to put the corpse somewhere in the prison as I think that was part of the death sentence upon the guilty person.


Posted by: Guest 23rd Oct 2009, 08:32am

QUOTE (Venus @ 16th Aug 2009, 10:50pm) *
Ten or eleven years ago I was in Barlinnie(on business I may add)and in one of the wings which was being renovated when I got talking as one does to one of the officers. For those of you who have never been in the place,and Im quite sure that is the majority, there is a large grassy area on the left hand side as you go through the inner gate.Getting back to my conversation and obviously in an effort to impress me the officer informed me that behind one of the doors was the area where executions took place.It was quite chilling to be true.Anyway,suitably shook up we went outside where I innocently
asked if the executed persons were buried on the grassy area I mentioned.The officer looked at me,shook his head and looked down at the ground right next to the wall and said,"Manuel".
There on the ground was a clear reinstatement of the original surface."In there with lime"
That conversation always stuck in my mind,whether it was a wind up or not I dont know.What I do know is that they had to put the corpse somewhere in the prison as I think that was part of the death sentence upon the guilty person.


Hi Venus, I think the officer was "having you on" This grassed area/garden area is too new and is outwith the original prison walls. This area was an addition to create a sterile area and police and prison van area.
I was a Prison Officer in Barlinnie for 6 years (1990 - 96) before transfering to Dumfire Prison. D Hall is where the hangings took place (not sure what it was called back then), but D Hall is the hall which is closes to the gate and western wall. I think it's now been internaly altered with the typical victorian hall having each floor covered in and now called "Letham Hall". Anyway, if my memory serves me correctly, on the 2nd flat of D Hall, there was a difference in the cells doors at the far end of the hall (south end). If you stood on the bottom flat and looked up to the second flat, you could see the difference. The differences was the size of the cells to accommodate the hangings and wider doors (I think). Basically the prisoner would enter the second flat cell and be dropped down through a hatch into the cell below on the ground floor, wheeled out and buried on the outside, very close to the cell into which he dropped! This is between the walls of D Hall and the original outside wall. There are markings on D Hall wall to show the locations of the bodies.

Over the 6 years at Barlinnie I had don quite a few night shifts in D Hall ( always seemed to be this hall, dont know why) and let me tell you, it could be quite spooky! especially along the end of the hall where those cells are!

Hope this helps.

Glenn




Posted by: ninab2 12th Nov 2009, 11:25am

QUOTE (*michele* @ 16th Oct 2009, 10:38pm) *
I believe the forbes family you are talking about are related to me, my father mentioned his cousin killing his mother. They came from Strabane in Ireland in 1905, Micheal (my grandfather), tommy, henry who was born in glasgow, they lived in anderston. I have all relations going back email and I can give you a copy.



Hi Michelle,
Only just seen your reply...Could you let me have the copies of the emails please...Regards. Ninab2

Posted by: martinjmurray 29th Nov 2009, 12:25am

QUOTE (dmf @ 6th Jul 2009, 07:32pm) *
Hi Ninab,

I have a few facts that may help you with your quest for info.

Anthony Miller and James Denovan were arrested for the murder of a small time Glasgow crook, John Cremin, who at that time was calling himself John Thompson. When Miller & Denovan went on trial, they were also accused of 3 other charges of assault and robbery. All of the crimes were committed n Queens Park on Glasgow's south side.

Their modus operandi was that Denovan, being 16 years old and 'pretty', would go into the toilets at the park, which was a well-known homosexual meeting place, and entice a male from there, with the promise of further secual behaviour elsehwere in the park. During the walk to this place, Miller would jump out and both youths would attack and rob the other man. Of course, with homosexuality being unlawful at the time, these crimes were very rarely reported to police. One of the men who did report it was a Dr James McKay from Hickman Street. This may be where some of your confusion comes in.

They went too far with the violence and John Cremin received a massive blow to the head with a large lump of wood which killed him outright. The police at first thought that Cremin had suffered the injury falling over after having had a heart attack! It was fully five months before they were arrested for the crime. This happened because Denovan was caught in the toilets, engaging in a sexual act with another male and when he was questioned by police, they found a clipping of a newspaper story about the search for 'Cremin's' relatives, which police thought was a strange thing for a young lad to be carryingabout with him.

Both were found guilty but as Denovan was only 16, he was detained during HM's Pleasure, while Miller was sentenced to be hanged. There was the usual appeal and vociferous outcry from public bodies and petititions for a reprieve, but neither came. It is all the more galling when the case was put against anothger murder case from Dumfries, in which that murderer, 25 year old Robert Dickson, was reprieved for premeditated murder. It could be argued that Miller and Denovan's murder was not premeditated.

Miller was hanged at Barlinnie Prison on 22nd December 1960 (last hanging at Bar-L).
All the gory details of this case and 24 other Glasgow cases are in my book 'The Book Of Glasgow Murders', which is on sale at all major bookshops now. (sorry about the plug).

Hope this helps. Any more info needed then just ask.


dmf


Posted by: martinjmurray 29th Nov 2009, 12:27am

Hi Thanks for this. I am reseaching a book so wuill read yours with interest. Do you know what becoame of Devovan?

Posted by: martinjmurray 29th Nov 2009, 12:34am

Hi I have newspaper cutts from a reltibve of joyn lyons. They went accross the river to fight another gang. The vivtim was a demobbed sailor who was not a gang member. His brother aopparently was. m

Posted by: dmf 29th Nov 2009, 03:05pm

Hi martinjmurray,

I have no idea what happened to Denovan. I would assume he served a lengthy period of imprisonment and was released, probably by this time in his late 20's or early 30's. I do not think he would have courted publicity.

With regards to the Lyon's case. You are correct about the major details. The Lyons gang were chasing after the 'Dougie Boys' gang and a newly demobbed sailor, brother of one of the gang members, got caught up in it all and was knifed to death in the street. This case is also featured in my book (chapter 17). I hope you enjoy reading it and it gives you some new insight into the case.
If you have any questions about it, or other Glasgow cases, I'm always happy to answer any questions if I can.


dmf

Posted by: martinjmurray 29th Nov 2009, 08:07pm

Mny thanks. I've been reseacrching for decades but not in print yet. Interesting getting responses from the families of people involved. Duisd you do the Harris case?

Posted by: dmf 29th Nov 2009, 08:48pm

Hi martinjmurray

I did not include the Harris case. I did consider it but I had to draw a line somewhere and my publisher thought 25 chapters good value, so I had to cut quite a number of potential chapters from the book. But hey, I now have a head start for Volume 2!!

I assume from your reply that you did not get a response from the Denovan family about his date of release or indeed, his current whereabouts?

dmf

Posted by: martinjmurray 25th Dec 2009, 12:31am

Hi bought and enjoyed your book. Not been able to tracjk the Denovan family. His father was a local business man aopparently. However no record. I think he's still alive and in West Scortland as was mentioned in Evening times about 10 years ago. I think the Harris Case would begreat for a film. At the time there were thousdands lining the streets for the victims funeral; however the area is now demolished. I was thinking about doing a book asa seq

Hi bought and enjoyed your book. Not been able to tracjk the Denovan family. His father was a local business man aopparently. However no record. I think he's still alive and in West Scortland as was mentioned in Evening times about 10 years ago. I think the Harris Case would begreat for a film. At the time there were thousdands lining the streets for the victims funeral; however the area is now demolished. I was thinking about doing a book asa seq

Posted by: martinjmurray 25th Dec 2009, 12:33am

Something went wrong with my entry. a Sqaure mile on the south side. You used some interesting cases which I'd looked into. Another interesting place is Blackburn Street. As far as I can find the only one with two murders leading to executuions happening on it. Could research for you? m

Posted by: dmf 5th Jan 2010, 01:16pm

Hi martinjmurray,

I am aware of the Blackburn Street cases and I have researched them. As with many other cases I've researched, I found that they did not contain 'enough of a story' to warrant having a chapter written about them, hence their omission form my book. Thanks for the offer though!

dmf

Posted by: martinjmurray 23rd Jan 2010, 09:09pm

Ceers. However you came up with some I've never heard off. Unsolved ones at Glasgow green in particular.. Allows me to fiocus on a different genre. M

Posted by: margaret johnstone 9th Apr 2010, 04:04pm

QUOTE (maryann @ 6th Aug 2009, 04:19pm) *
my grandad, alexander lyon was the brother of john lyon hanged in barlinnie, i believe he was around 19 years of age, was at glasgow barrowlands at a dance.he was with his girlfriend and her brothers, i do not know their name.,however on that night a fight started and johns girlfriends brother stabbed some 1 at the dance. john lyon was asked by the brother if he would take the blame as he had never been in trouble before, unlike himself had several offences, believing john would maybe do a bit of jail time, only it didnt turn out that way.as the members of both families sat in the court they watched the judge tell john he would be hanged for this murder, that he did not commit. not a single person from the other family uttered a word as they watched john taken away...... not even his girlfriend. i have tried to find newspaper archives in relation to this, so far i have had no luck

Hi i am the niece of John Brady who was murdered ....this was a gang killing and a case of mistaken identity ...they were after another Brady and not my uncle who was on leave from the navy ... He was not just stabbed but executed so badly that they wouldn't even allow the family to see him ...
those that were convicted were all involved and in no way innocent ..... the murder has been a sentance for all the family and still is .... It was not at the Dance my uncle was chased through the streets and the gang involved had been on the rampage before this .......

Posted by: lindylou08 13th Apr 2010, 12:19pm

QUOTE (martinjmurray @ 29th Nov 2009, 01:51am) *
Hi I have newspaper cutts from a reltibve of joyn lyons. They went accross the river to fight another gang. The vivtim was a demobbed sailor who was not a gang member. His brother aopparently was. m

Hi Martin
This is not the full story ...this was my uncle that was killed ...and it was my other uncle that found him neither of them was in any gang and it was mistaken identity .... so if you want more info on this i will tell you ... none of those convicted were innocent ...
M.l.J

Posted by: Guest 13th Apr 2010, 04:06pm

Hi Many thanks for this./ From wjhat I read in newspapers zat the time John Lyon was identified. All teried to say they were not out of Govahill. II can be got at martinjmurray77@hotmail.com./ Many thanks,. Your right John Brady's brother did find him. John lyons threw a baynert and saisd your body;'s over there. He lived in Carrick Street, but there's nothing there now but gap site. M

Posted by: Anne Marie Deveney 3rd Sep 2010, 09:51pm

QUOTE (Diane Deveney @ 21st Sep 2008, 10:20pm) *
If Geraldine mcNealey is still following this discussion i would be very interested in making contact with her. I am Patrick Gallagher Deveney's grandaughter.


Posted by: Lynne Smith 23rd Sep 2010, 03:28am

My husband's grandfather John Barclay Smith was murdered by Joseph Hume at their home village of Lhanbryde, Morayshire, Scotland. Joseph Hume was subsequently executed (hung) at Inverness Prison in 1908. This much is all the family know of this travesty. John Smith's son, my husband's father immigrated to Canada, and did not share this with anyone, not even his wife. When he was dying of cancer in 1969 was when he finally briefly told a member of the family that his father had been murdered, with absolutely no details. Of course, the usual speculation followed. I feel strongly that it is the family's right to know what happened, but all I can find is the occupation of the accused and the victim, who the hangman was, and that he had been sentenced at the High Court, Aberdeen, by Lord Kincaid-Mackenzie. Believe me, I have researched a long time and cannot find any details as to what happened, why was John Smith murdered? Also, John Smith's son said he was around 4 years old when this happened, so the date of execution would mean the murder took place around 1902 or so, so if Hume was not tried until 1908, what happened in between? Mind you, my father in law was dying of cancer, and was on a lot of medication, so that could possibly explain the wrong age being given. It would be a wonderful blessing if someone can tell us what happened!

Thank you Sylvia "Lynne" Smith

Posted by: enrique 23rd Sep 2010, 10:58am

Do you mean the offficial ones or the ones that are still going on to-day ,and they are mostly all innocent people, just lift your local paper any day and read about them

Posted by: Jupiter 23rd Sep 2010, 11:25am

Enrique,
Ive just read my local paper and didnt win the crossword competition.I didnt see anything about executions,a few death notices,that was it.So what is it you are talking about?

Posted by: Lynne Smith 23rd Sep 2010, 07:13pm

I am sorry, I simply can not find the reply to my plea for information on the death of grandfather John Barclay Smith. It is frustrating not to be able to put it up. Can this very important piece of information be sent direct to me via email? I'm on pins and needles to have gotten such a quick reply.

Thank you, Lynne Smith

Posted by: wellfield 24th Sep 2010, 01:17am

Just had one here 10 minutes ago in Virginia!...and another here in Caifornia in a few more days...first executions here for quite a while!

Posted by: dmf 24th Sep 2010, 02:38pm

Am I the only one who has lost the track of this topic??


dmf

Posted by: Lynne Smith 24th Sep 2010, 04:03pm

dmf:

I am not sure what you meant by "am I...." but I do know I was notified there was a message from you. So far you make the third reply. I am not getting anywhere with receiving these messages when I key the link. I am not the most computer smart person, but I don't think it is me, I think something is possibly wrong with the system.

I is very frustrating, I have waited for a long time to answer the question as to why and how did Joseph Hume murder my grandfather John Barclay Smith?

Lynne Smith

Posted by: martinjmurray 24th Sep 2010, 05:42pm

Hi mLynn I started this chain years ago to get info on cases where a person was executed. There is a book specifically on Scottish executions which covers the case. In addition I would think rthsat the 75 year rule was exhausted ion this case so no problem gwetting access to trial papers at west register houdse in Edinburgh. Hope this helps. M

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 24th Sep 2010, 11:23pm

QUOTE (Lynne Smith @ 24th Sep 2010, 05:05pm) *
dmf:

.... but I do know I was notified there was a message from you. So far you make the third reply. I am not getting anywhere with receiving these messages when I key the link.

Lynne Smith

Hi Lynne, go up to the top of the page and on the right you'll see "1 new PMs" or maybe by now "0 new PMs". Click on that and a new page should open with a list of PMs in your Inbox. Click on the Title and the PM (Personal/Private Message) will open.
Hope that's a help.
Tomi.

Posted by: wellfield 25th Sep 2010, 04:15am

Hi Lynne,I received a PM from you...regarding this thread.....the only mention was the one I made quite a while back and it was in regards to a Tony Smith that was hung for a Glasgow murder at the Hibernian Hall...I knew him in my youth as he was in our group of Lads....and the other mention I made was to the murder of my Uncle in Glasgow by two American merchant marines.

Posted by: Lynne Smith 27th Sep 2010, 08:24pm

Finally I have found the information about grandfather John Barclay Smith's murder by Joseph Hume in 1907. The murderer looked like a vagrant and was a deserter from the HLI (what is HLI?). They both lived in Lhanbryde. John B. Smith was a road contractor, and was originally from Aberdeen. He lived in a ground-floor flat, and the family upstairs reported a strange smell coming from below. Hume was arrested a few days later. A number of suspicious characters were arrested in Keith, Elgin etc., but police felt the assailant could possibly have got a berth on a fishing boat. Grandfather John was found by the police laying on his bed with his head smashed in by a heavy mash hammer found laying near to the bed. The murder had taken place a few days earlier. Hume was a labourer, and ex-soldier, and was sentenced to death by Lord Kincaid-Mackenzie at the High Court of Justiciary, Aberdeen. Hume was executed at Inverness prison on March 5, 1908, and the prison bell was rang 15 minutes prior to and 15 minutes after the execution and a black flag was hoisted immediately after the execution. The rope used was procured 19 years prior for another murderer, but his sentence was commuted to life. Pierpont was the executioner, and a year or so later he was fired for being drunk on the job. Grandfather John was not living with his family and had been seen drunk on various occasions. It has been quite a journey finding out all these things, but my search is not ending just yet, because I think it is important to know WHY did this happen, what circumstances led up to the murder, did they know each other?

Lynne Smith

Posted by: *martinjmurray* 27th Sep 2010, 08:56pm

Hi Lynn HLI was Highland Light Infantry an Edwardian and Victorian Army regiment.

Posted by: george higgins 3rd Oct 2010, 08:18pm

QUOTE (Isobel @ 21st Feb 2004, 04:49am) *
I lived next to Barlinie prison. Does anyone remember the Manuel case .He was hung in Barlinie I guess some time around 1960.

Peter Manuel was hung i believe in 58 for the murder of the watt family.
prior or after this; at carrick drive mount vernon, Isabell cook was murdered, I believe Peter Manuel was guilty of that too, this was a complicated case for a number of reasons: the truth never got to the surface over the watt family the people felt that watt had set up the italian family for manuel to rob them this family lived next door to the watt family; watt himself removed himself from the scene by booking himself into a hotel out of glasgow . while manuel done the deed. as manuel approached the house the italian family were living in the daughter of the family exited the watts bungalow next door! manuel was perplexed as the italian girl exited the watts house 'his mind was in confusion' he believed that he was on the point of going into the wrong bungalow'; redirecting himself into the bungalow the italian girl came from (which was not the one the italian family lived in at all) but the bungalow the watt family resided in. hence the execution of the watt household.

when the scenario was brought to light and the cry went up for the killer of the watt family; the police combed the scene,,, clues were few; but a thread of an unusual type, colour and texture was to prove the million to one chance of closing this henious crime and finding the killer.

after much research it was discovered that the thread possibly came from a blazier badge of regimental design 'it was also ascertained,that the thread in evidence was singularly unusual in that it had possibly come from the insignia of the Royal Marines [dont quote me on that selection]
however that particular thread could only have come from a designated badge. the investigation went on for months:::: eventually every forces member of the regiment was traced and military blazer motif's examined, till peter manuel's father was arrested [i believe] and peter manuel surrendered. (but the actual details have faded over the yaers,so check them out in your research.

Going back to the original slaughter of the watt family! Watt was questioned over his alibi 'as he maintained he was down the coast golfing or fishing' and hadnt been in glasgow since the friday or even thursday. However a newspaper seller saw him stopped at the traffic lights on the Jamaica Bridge on his way into the town centre at midnight [I believe on friday night, or saturday night !]

this sighting put watt in the hot seat 'the police had him in, and this sighting backed by the news vendor's statement had him arrested; but finally released on bail "till the court hearing" in the interim between bail and his court hearing 'Watt was involved in at least three collisions in cars he was driving' in the last collision,,, he broke both his legs. remanded in custody during his trial; he was kept in the hospital wing of Barlinnie prison. then released for lack of further evidence; he was free to go.

Into the triangle of the watt murders and Isabel cook's death with the final surrender of Peter Manuel, was the death of a girl called Anne Kneilands who had gone missing months before, Anne Kneilands was from east kilbride 'and had last been seen getting into a low dark foreign looking car' near a bus stop at east kilbride. im sure Peter Manual couldnt drive! and Watt owned a Dark Green Citroen. and even more surreal; Anne kneilands worked at a bakery in Alexandria Parade,,,,,,, Watts Bakery!. Manuel took the police to the fifth tee:on the Golf Course
at East Kilbride and pointed to the cluster of bushes that was the resting place of Anne Kneilands, Manuel insisted that he didnt kill Anne; but had buried her on the instructions of Watt! 'after Watt killed her on the day she got into his car.

Thats a sample of the tangled web in the trial of Peter Manuel.

It ended on the morning Peter manuel woke to his last day on earth, the wing was very quiet till they came to the condemned cell! the sound of keys and bolts rattling as preperations went forward. the silence was broken a cry went up; "Manuel Ya Bastard Theyr'e Comin Tae Get Ye..
Watts life was finished; he either committed suicide or had a heart attack. in prison.

DETAILS ARE SKETCHY AND IT HAS BEEN MANY YEARS SINCE I LISTENED TO MANUEL TAKING HIS LAST WALK...........

Posted by: flam 5th Oct 2010, 09:15am

Hi George Higgins .Quite a story but a lot of it is conjecture, you never mentioned the Smart Family or the taxi driver that was allegedly murdered by Peter Manuel , but as you say the details are sketchy and as you say it is 52 years since Peter was hanged Cheers Flim

Posted by: dmf 5th Oct 2010, 03:33pm

Hi George Higgins:

Very interested in the part that Annie Knielands worked for Watt the Bakers. I don't think that this has been known until now. Interested to know where your info comes from?

Incidentally, Annie Knielands unburied body was found lying at the side of the 5th hole by George Gribbon, a local man who was out looking for lost golf balls, and was not buried and certainly not pointed out to police by Manuel. Perhaps you are getting mixed up with Baillieston Brickworks where Manuel did point out a spot where he had buried another victim - 17 year old Isabelle Cooke. Manuel is alleged to have said to the police, "She is here. I think I am standing on her." He was right.

One other point, the man who identified William Watt was not a newspaper seller but the ferry master of the Erskine Ferry, who said that Watt crossed on the ferry on the night of the murders of his family.

There is a lot more I could correct but...............



dmf

Posted by: Lynne Smith 5th Oct 2010, 05:04pm

Thank you martinjmurray

Now another piece of this murder has been solved. Your answer is most appreciated

Lynne Smith

Posted by: wellfield 5th Oct 2010, 09:47pm


PETER MANUEL

Posted by: Lynne Smith 6th Oct 2010, 05:40pm

Why have you sent me this photo, with no dialog?

Posted by: auchenshuggle 6th Oct 2010, 07:25pm

maybe because its no a talking picture. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: wellfield 6th Oct 2010, 07:40pm

QUOTE (Lynne Smith @ 6th Oct 2010, 11:36am) *
Why have you sent me this photo, with no dialog?

Well'..Excuse me Mrs!!!!....After reading the post that you undoubtedly missed on 'Peter Manuel' by 'George Higgins' on OCT 3rd this year,just thought I'd put a face to the name..no need to punish me though,as I've taken away my own library card,placed myself on restriction for the rest of the day and smacked the back of my hand all by myself...and the reason for this dialogue by me is that I thought your retort was just a wee bit uncivil.

Posted by: Lynne Smith 6th Oct 2010, 07:59pm

Oh for goodness sake !! The picture of this man rather scared me, I was not sure what was going on, and no I have not been to the Glasgow Guide Discussion Boards lately, plus I had no idea who the picture was of. Where I come from, your retort was rude.

Lynne

Posted by: Elma 7th Oct 2010, 12:23am

QUOTE (Lynne Smith @ 6th Oct 2010, 06:36pm) *
Why have you sent me this photo, with no dialog?


I think that if you look under the photo you will find the name of Peter Manuel. As this is a Discussion Board I don't think the photo was put there for you exclusively but was added there by Wellfield for the information of the other posters who have added to this thread.

Posted by: wellfield 7th Oct 2010, 05:05pm

QUOTE (Elma @ 6th Oct 2010, 06:19pm) *
I think that if you look under the photo you will find the name of Peter Manuel. As this is a Discussion Board I don't think the photo was put there for you exclusively but was added there by Wellfield for the information of the other posters who have added to this thread.

Thank you Elma....that was exactly my reason...sorry if it offended Lynne..it was her abrupt presentation of her answer that bothered me....I assumed she'd read the post on Peter Manuel on the same page.

Posted by: dmf 7th Oct 2010, 05:34pm

Hi Wellfield,

Classic photo - thanks. It looks like it may be the official police mugshot, with the bottom bit cut off for some reason.

Thanks again.


dmf

Posted by: auchenshuggle 7th Oct 2010, 07:23pm

would that no be the bit with his name and number on it? jist a guess. mellow.gif

Posted by: RonD 8th Oct 2010, 07:42am

Canada will not send back prisoners to states in the US that have the death penalty. In Canada in the last twenty years or so there has been at least three people released after finding they couldn't have done it as a result of their DNA. Just imagine if the death penalty was still in law for when they were sentenced. In most cases it was just local police making a square peg fit a round hole.

Posted by: wellfield 8th Oct 2010, 09:08pm

QUOTE (RonD @ 8th Oct 2010, 01:38am) *
Canada will not send back prisoners to states in the US that have the death penalty. In Canada in the last twenty years or so there has been at least three people released after finding they couldn't have done it as a result of their DNA. Just imagine if the death penalty was still in law for when they were sentenced. In most cases it was just local police making a square peg fit a round hole.

I think that applies to most countries Ron when it comes to sending them back.

Posted by: enrique 13th Oct 2010, 10:56am

QUOTE (Jupiter @ 23rd Sep 2010, 01:21pm) *
Enrique,
Ive just read my local paper and didnt win the crossword competition.I didnt see anything about executions,a few death notices,that was it.So what is it you are talking about?

try reading the newspapers instead of your War Cry

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 13th Oct 2010, 11:09am

QUOTE (dmf @ 7th Oct 2010, 06:30pm) *
Hi Wellfield,

Classic photo - thanks. It looks like it may be the official police mugshot, with the bottom bit cut off for some reason.

Thanks again.


dmf

I think the picture was taken when he was being best man at someone's wedding tongue.gif

Posted by: dmf 13th Oct 2010, 05:47pm

Aye, right TeeHeeHee biggrin.gif laugh.gif


dmf

Posted by: Guest 9th Jan 2011, 12:25am

QUOTE (chakota100 @ 15th May 2009, 05:34pm) *
Hi Lynn,
I came across this topic when researching my family tree. My Father was called Harry Harris who is the brother of paul. Which in turn means i am related to you. Can you respond to this please as i have no other way to contact you.
Many Thanks ......... Harry


Hi Harry
My father 'Paul' doesn't have a brother called Harry, but are you referring to my grandfather 'Paul'?, who was executed in 1950 at Barlinnie?
I'm not sure if there was another brother at all? Do you want to reply with your email address?
and I'll email you.

Thanks
Lynn

Posted by: *jimmy* 1st Feb 2011, 02:51am

re: James Denovan and Anthony Miller.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/a-weeping-juror-a-teenager-and-a-prayer-for-the-dying-1.677064

Posted by: chrisd 2nd Nov 2011, 08:22am

QUOTE (chakota100 @ 15th May 2009, 05:22pm) *
Hi Lynn,
I came across this topic when researching my family tree. My Father was called Harry Harris who is the brother of paul. Which in turn means i am related to you. Can you respond to this please as i have no other way to contact you.
Many Thanks ......... Harry


Posted by: chrisd 2nd Nov 2011, 08:45am

QUOTE (chakota100 @ 15th May 2009, 05:22pm) *
Hi Lynn,
I came across this topic when researching my family tree. My Father was called Harry Harris who is the brother of paul. Which in turn means i am related to you. Can you respond to this please as i have no other way to contact you.
Many Thanks ......... Harry

hi harry and Lynne....... I am a friend of Paul Harris jnr... I have his permission to contact you as his internet down just now..... I can be contacted at CHRISTINED1959@hotmail.co.uk and will pass on any messages directly to him, otherwise he can be contacted at his own email address harris.paul112@googlemail.com but cant guarantee fast response
cheers
christine

Posted by: Makora 29th Jan 2012, 12:16pm

QUOTE (Lynne Smith @ 27th Sep 2010, 07:40pm) *
Finally I have found the information about grandfather John Barclay Smith's murder by Joseph Hume in 1907. The murderer looked like a vagrant and was a deserter from the HLI (what is HLI?). They both lived in Lhanbryde. John B. Smith was a road contractor, and was originally from Aberdeen. He lived in a ground-floor flat, and the family upstairs reported a strange smell coming from below. Hume was arrested a few days later. A number of suspicious characters were arrested in Keith, Elgin etc., but police felt the assailant could possibly have got a berth on a fishing boat. Grandfather John was found by the police laying on his bed with his head smashed in by a heavy mash hammer found laying near to the bed. The murder had taken place a few days earlier. Hume was a labourer, and ex-soldier, and was sentenced to death by Lord Kincaid-Mackenzie at the High Court of Justiciary, Aberdeen. Hume was executed at Inverness prison on March 5, 1908, and the prison bell was rang 15 minutes prior to and 15 minutes after the execution and a black flag was hoisted immediately after the execution. The rope used was procured 19 years prior for another murderer, but his sentence was commuted to life. Pierpont was the executioner, and a year or so later he was fired for being drunk on the job. Grandfather John was not living with his family and had been seen drunk on various occasions. It has been quite a journey finding out all these things, but my search is not ending just yet, because I think it is important to know WHY did this happen, what circumstances led up to the murder, did they know each other?

Lynne Smith


Posted by: Makora 29th Jan 2012, 12:52pm

QUOTE (Lynne Smith @ 23rd Sep 2010, 02:44am) *
My husband's grandfather John Barclay Smith was murdered by Joseph Hume at their home village of Lhanbryde, Morayshire, Scotland. Joseph Hume was subsequently executed (hung) at Inverness Prison in 1908. This much is all the family know of this travesty. John Smith's son, my husband's father immigrated to Canada, and did not share this with anyone, not even his wife. When he was dying of cancer in 1969 was when he finally briefly told a member of the family that his father had been murdered, with absolutely no details. Of course, the usual speculation followed. I feel strongly that it is the family's right to know what happened, but all I can find is the occupation of the accused and the victim, who the hangman was, and that he had been sentenced at the High Court, Aberdeen, by Lord Kincaid-Mackenzie. Believe me, I have researched a long time and cannot find any details as to what happened, why was John Smith murdered? Also, John Smith's son said he was around 4 years old when this happened, so the date of execution would mean the murder took place around 1902 or so, so if Hume was not tried until 1908, what happened in between? Mind you, my father in law was dying of cancer, and was on a lot of medication, so that could possibly explain the wrong age being given. It would be a wonderful blessing if someone can tell us what happened!

Thank you Sylvia "Lynne" Smith


Posted by: wellfield 29th Jan 2012, 11:27pm

Hi Lynne....The HLI is the "Highland Light Infantry"a Scottish Regiment who were normally stationed in Glasgow I believe..... and Pierpont was a very well known executioner...sad story.

Posted by: wildrover220 7th Mar 2012, 04:29pm

There's a new ebook out that details the lives, crimes and demise of the 10 men hanged within the walls of Barlinnie Prison. It's called Ghosts of Barlinnie. Bought it for Amazon Kindle - not sure if it exists in any other formats but it is a good read. I found the stuff about their time in the condemned cell most interesting.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ghosts-of-Barlinnie-ebook/dp/B007HL1CSE

Posted by: June Evans 2nd May 2012, 07:20pm

QUOTE (ninab @ 7th Jul 2009, 07:53am) *
I forgot to mention also that another cousin of mine!!! Henry Forbes was also convicted of murder. He killed his mother Annie Forbes but I am almost sure he was put into a mental prison!! It also happened in Glasgow.Do you know of his case? He killed her with an axe because (I believe) she wouldn't lend him any money!!

I remember my mum telling me years ago about my (uncle) not sure if they were married who's name was forbes who killed his mother with a axe because she wonld'nt give him any money for a bet on the horse's i was wondering if this is the same one, my auntie's name was jessie and she had two children john and jackie.

Posted by: Doug1 3rd Jul 2012, 10:28am

My late father was on a jury who found a person guilty and sentenced to death. My dad never spoke about it until nearer the end of his life but I would assume it was prior to my birth in 1942 and as my dad was born in 1908 i would think the trial may have been somewhere between the late 20's to the early 40's. He only passed away a couple of months ago i wish now i had asked him more about his early life

------------------------------

Posted by: Anne Symons 11th Jul 2012, 05:47pm

QUOTE (william campbell @ 22nd Apr 2009, 02:54pm) *
Hi Gayle , My names William Campbell And John was my dads brother and his mother was Lizzie Lyons she stayed with us till she died on 2nd december 1972 at 7.30 in the morning it was a Saturday i was 15 at the time I remember it like it was yesterday she was a brilliant nanna we all lived in Alloa and Johns picture was above her bed he had an army uniform on I don't know the full story but i was told he went out with his 2 brother in laws and they were at the bus / tram station John was 17 at the time and they met a sailor and a fight broke out the sailor was stabbed and died but by the time they went to court he was 18 it was one of the brother in laws that stabbed him Johns wife was seemingly having an affair and she stood up in court and said she seen John do it so he was found guilty. After John was hanged lizzie had a nervous breakdown it took her years to get over it. I dont think she ever did . If you read this Gayle you can contact me at williamcampbell11@hotmail.com or if anyone knows Gayles e.mail address could you please send it to mine would be very much appreciated.

My mother Margaret Crosbie was married to John Lyons who was hanged for murder in Glasgow 19 the 1940's. Please can anyone help me to find out more information. My Uncles who were with him are now both dead as is the rest of my mums brothers so apart from the stories from my mum, I have no factual information. I have seen some comments on here previously advising that John was innocent and my mum and her brothers always maintained this was true. I know the reasons why John took the blame. My mum loved him and talked of him right to the end of her life in 1997.

Please can anyone direct me to where I can get further information from.

Posted by: martinjmurray 21st Jul 2012, 11:34am

Hi I have picture of your mum and her brothers from William. They lived in Gorbals and Govanhill, Cumberland Street and Jamieson Street in Govanhill, which is close to where I used to live.
Some of the latter street still stands, the former was demolished in 1960's and is unreconisable today.
There were three convicted but two were reprieved, only John was executed, first since 1928 and first at Barlinnie. I used to be on the vistining committee there so can advise the Hanging cell was demolished in 1998 and D hall is totally revamped.
Any help from a family point of view would be useful to try to get balance in my research.
The guy who died was a demobbed sailor who lived inn Carrick street hostel, again now demolished. He had only been demobbed recently. Seems his brother was a member of the local gang.
He had 20+ injuries so one person could not have done it. John was apparently the one who said your boy's over there and threw away a bayonet. He had previously been a coal miner in Alloa near where I now live.
martinjmurray77@hotmail.com for anyone who can help. Intention is to finish research publish and pay royalities to Victim Support and families of murder victims.

Posted by: CAMPSIE 21st Jul 2012, 01:23pm

QUOTE (Guest @ 21st Feb 2004, 03:51am) *
Hi Martin
The bodies at Duke St & Barlinnie were buried in lime pits so don`t know if there would be much leftI believe the names were on a wall in the prison don`t know if they are still there.
The Lyons case was a gang fight in Argyle St.Lyons got executed Rennie done 9 years Alex Crosbie done 10 years& was released in 1956 ,lyons was his brother in law

The book I have is Enclopaedia of executions by John Eddleston
interesting to note that no executions took place in Scotland Between1928& 1946



Well there was WW11 from 1939-1945 that could account for those years being free of executions.

Posted by: martinjmurray 22nd Jul 2012, 11:48am

No there wqere those sentenced but commuted. One of who m was a woman in Abderdeen who killed a girl and tried to make it look like rape.
The last execution in Duke Street was George Reynolds who killed a friend for his job in a bakery!
Allegedly the names of those executed via initials were still on the bit of Duke Street Prison wall still standing. Personally having been and looked I've never seen them.
Maybe urban legend or 50+ years of weather on Sandstone.

Posted by: martinjmurray 22nd Jul 2012, 11:50am

QUOTE (June Evans @ 2nd May 2012, 08:35pm) *
I remember my mum telling me years ago about my (uncle) not sure if they were married who's name was forbes who killed his mother with a axe because she wonld'nt give him any money for a bet on the horse's i was wondering if this is the same one, my auntie's name was jessie and she had two children john and jackie.


Posted by: martinjmurray 22nd Jul 2012, 11:51am

No doubt he killed her. However I've no record of a murder conviction so maybe culpible homicide or after 1965 so not within the area I'm researching.

Posted by: martin_glasgow 23rd Jul 2012, 09:39am

In Reply To June Evans..

Hi June here is some info on the subject that you posted..Here are 2 Excerpts Taken from The Glasgow Herald and The Glasgow Evening Times with regards to the case in 1959 I dont know the final outcome of the case ,maybe someone on here can help...

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=pXZAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cqMMAAAAIBAJ&pg=6393,215049&dq=john+forbes+murderer+in+glasgow&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=wvxAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=3acMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3692,2368113&dq=john+forbes+murdered+his+mother&hl=en

Martin..

Posted by: *Jackie* 24th Oct 2012, 09:19pm

QUOTE (June Evans @ 2nd May 2012, 08:35pm) *
I remember my mum telling me years ago about my (uncle) not sure if they were married who's name was forbes who killed his mother with a axe because she wonld'nt give him any money for a bet on the horse's i was wondering if this is the same one, my auntie's name was jessie and she had two children john and jackie.


Posted by: liz campbell 13th Dec 2012, 03:35pm

Hi i am looking for information on a Angus Steel that was hanged in barlinnie prison, he was born between the years of 1900-1919. The information is from my father, and this is his uncle. I cant find anything at all on him. But dad said he was definately hung. Do not know what the crime was. If anyone can help i would really appreciate it. Thanks Liz smile.gif

Posted by: farrochie 20th Dec 2012, 10:01pm

QUOTE (martinjmurray @ 29th Nov 2009, 12:44am) *
Hi Thanks for this. I am reseaching a book so wuill read yours with interest. Do you know what becoame of Devovan?


I have just done a search on Scotland's People and find there was a James Douglas Denovan died 1998, though I can't confirm that this is the same James Douglas Denovan, though it would be quite a coincidence of names and spellings.

Posted by: Guest 23rd Dec 2012, 06:54am

I think this may have been a different guiy as he was biorn other than Glasgow

Posted by: Karl Beattie 28th May 2013, 11:43am

QUOTE (Diane Deveney @ 23rd Sep 2008, 07:32pm) *
Hi
Patrick Deveney had 5 children. 3 are still alive and the 2 youngest are dead. My dad was aged 7 at the time of the murder. The children were in school at the time of the incident but my dad recalls coming home from school and witnessing the grusome aftermath. The family were placed in care and experienced a traumatic and stigmatised childhood. All 5 went on to marry and have families of their own. Betty died aged 36 of alcohol related problems and Jimmy died aged 50 of a sudden cardiac arrest. George, Hugh and Sadie are still alive and fairly well. We are a close family. My cousin did a lot of research into this a few years ago so I'll ask her if she knows anything which may help you with your research.


Posted by: tarzan 2nd Sep 2013, 02:19pm

QUOTE (wellfield @ 15th Sep 2008, 10:45pm) *
I couldn't tell you,its been ages since I saw Tony Smith he'd be about 69 years old by now and went to St Roch's school 52-55 ish The whole Family was very well known in the 50s and 60s in Blackhill and may well still be around Glasgow----also ''martinjmurray'',a few months ago I came across a site that gave you all the execution dates and places in Scotland,I'm afraid I dont remember the name of it.We haven't had an execution in California for ages 'though there are more than 500 to 600 on death row---President Bush is the man to talk to about executions,his State of Texas is one of the leading Execution States,and Utah has finally done away with shooting their condemned---It's been proven over and over it's no detterant,and it costs millions to keep a man on death row here,I believe they appeal for about 20 years,or at least that's as long as some appeals take' though the Oklahoma Federal Building bomber was swiftly taken care of---Mexico won't extradite prioners back to the U.S if the death penalty is to be considered.


I heard of Tony Smith in 1970, from his wife who was in Birmingham, he was in jail in Scotland.

Posted by: tarzan 2nd Sep 2013, 02:28pm

Haven't scrolled through all postings so apologies if someone has already put this up. No executions in Scotland from 1928-1946. Total executions in Scotland during the 20th century : 34 (33 men and one woman).

http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/scottish.html

Name, Age, Prison

> Patrick Leggett, 30, Duke St. Glasgow
> Thomas Gunning, 48, Duke St. Glasgow
> Pasha Liffey, 20, Duke St. Glasgow
> Joseph Hume, 24, Inverness
> Edward Johnstone, 32, Perth
> Alexander Edmundstone, 23, Perth
> Patrick Higgins, 38, Calton Edinburgh
> Thomas McGuiness, 34, Duke St. Glasgow
> James Adams, 31, Duke St. Glasgow
> Albert James Fraser, 24, Duke St. Glasgow
> James Rollins, 23, Duke St. Glasgow
> William Harkness, 31, Duke St. Glasgow
> John Henry Savage, 50, Calton Edinburgh
> Susan Newell, 30, Duke St. Glasgow
> Philip Murray, 31, Calton Edinburgh
> John Keen, 22, Duke St. Glasgow
> James McKay, 40, Duke St. Glasgow
> George Reynolds, 40, Duke St. Glasgow
> Allen Wales, 22, Saughton Edinburgh
> John Lyon, 21, Barlinnie Glasgow
> Patrick Carraher, 40, Barlinnie Glasgow
> John Caldwell, 20, Barlinnie Glasgow
> Stanislaw Miszka, 23, Perth
> Christopher Harris, 28, Barlinnie Glasgow
> James Robertson, 31, Barlinnie Glasgow
> Robert Dobie Smith, 30, Saughton Edinburgh
> James Smith, 21, Barlinnie Glasgow
> Patrick Gallagher Deveney, 42, Barlinnie Glasgow
> George Francis Shaw, 25, Barlinnie Glasgow
> John Lynch, 45, Saughton Edinburgh
> George Alexander Robertson, 40, Saughton Edinburgh
> Peter Manuel, 31, Barlinnie Glasgow
> Anthony Miller, 19, Barlinnie Glasgow
> Henry John Burnett, 21, Aberdeen

All of these executions were for murder. There were 12 hangings at Duke Street prison Glasgow, prior to closure in 1955 and then 10 at Glasgow's Barlinnie prison. Four were carried out in Edinburgh's Saughton prison, with three at the Calton prison there, prior to its closure. There were three at Perth and one each at Aberdeen and Inverness. Susan Newell was the only woman executed.
end quote

Posted by: Black Pudding Pete 3rd Jan 2014, 01:09am

Hi, would be very interested if anyone Had information with respect to the execution of John Caldwell on 10.08.46. I have read both Robert Colquhoun and James Carron's books and I am familiar with the material contained therein.

What I am really looking for is a picture of John, so if anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated.

Regards.

Posted by: Elderslie 9th Mar 2014, 04:12pm

QUOTE (martinjmurray @ 21st Jul 2012, 11:51am) *
Hi I have picture of your mum and her brothers from William. They lived in Gorbals and Govanhill, Cumberland Street and Jamieson Street in Govanhill, which is close to where I used to live.
Some of the latter street still stands, the former was demolished in 1960's and is unreconisable today.
There were three convicted but two were reprieved, only John was executed, first since 1928 and first at Barlinnie. I used to be on the vistining committee there so can advise the Hanging cell was demolished in 1998 and D hall is totally revamped.
Any help from a family point of view would be useful to try to get balance in my research.
The guy who died was a demobbed sailor who lived inn Carrick street hostel, again now demolished. He had only been demobbed recently. Seems his brother was a member of the local gang.
He had 20+ injuries so one person could not have done it. John was apparently the one who said your boy's over there and threw away a bayonet. He had previously been a coal miner in Alloa near where I now live.
martinjmurray77@hotmail.com for anyone who can help. Intention is to finish research publish and pay royalities to Victim Support and families of murder victims.


martin - although I am too young to have any first-hand evidence with regard to the Crosbie, Lyon , Lennie trial, I am related to John [later known as Alex] Lennie. The story 'whispered' down through the family in the years that followed was that he wasn't involved. Another man who resembled him and who the whole Gorbals area knew was involved, accompanied the Crosbie brothers and their brother-in-law John Lyons that night.
The [perhaps naive] thinking of the accused was that a gang fight had occurred and that nobody could be found guilty of murder as nobody would know the identity of the person striking the fatal blow . They took poor solicitors advice. Nodding here towards an earlier contributor - I am NOT saying that a gang fight took place that evening.
Certainly in the case of Lennie who'd maintained he did not alight the tram at the locus that night and was identified by several persons as having met a female a good distance from the area of the murder at the time it occurred, the advice would appear to be of an incredulous nature.
During the trial Lennie received private advice from a Glasgow solicitor called Dunlop who assured him that the defence line being followed by others would almost certainly see him hang. This caused disagreement between the various accused which continued down through at least 2 later generations of the families and resulted in an oblique mention in Jimmy Boyle's book 'A Sense Of Freedom' when his taking part in a mass disturbance involving weapons was told .
For what it's worth, I was always told that the boy Lyons also wasn't involved.
The poor victim of this murder was a sailor. Something never mentioned when discussing this tragic event is, Lennie was an army dispatch rider.

Posted by: rumcdonald 26th Dec 2014, 05:59pm

QUOTE (Anne Symons @ 11th Jul 2012, 01:04pm) *
My mother Margaret Crosbie was married to John Lyons who was hanged for murder in Glasgow 19 the 1940's. Please can anyone help me to find out more information. My Uncles who were with him are now both dead as is the rest of my mums brothers so apart from the stories from my mum, I have no factual information. I have seen some comments on here previously advising that John was innocent and my mum and her brothers always maintained this was true. I know the reasons why John took the blame. My mum loved him and talked of him right to the end of her life in 1997.

Please can anyone direct me to where I can get further information from.


Posted by: rumcdonald 26th Dec 2014, 06:23pm

QUOTE (Anne Symons @ 11th Jul 2012, 01:04pm) *
My mother Margaret Crosbie was married to John Lyons who was hanged for murder in Glasgow 19 the 1940's. Please can anyone help me to find out more information. My Uncles who were with him are now both dead as is the rest of my mums brothers so apart from the stories from my mum, I have no factual information. I have seen some comments on here previously advising that John was innocent and my mum and her brothers always maintained this was true. I know the reasons why John took the blame. My mum loved him and talked of him right to the end of her life in 1997.

Please can anyone direct me to where I can get further information from.


Posted by: rumcdonald 26th Dec 2014, 06:40pm

Hi Anne
I knew the Crosbie family from Govanhill, and I met a friend in Canada who was related to them. I am doing a bit of Ancestry of the Crosbie's but forget Margaret Crosbie's parents names. My mum knew Mrs Crosble but my mum has passed away. I believe Margaret remarried Robert Fleming..or am I wrong? Could you remind me of Margaret Crosbie's parents names? I will keep in touch with you regarding researching the family tree. Cheers Ruth

Posted by: Yvonne todd 10th Nov 2015, 11:51am

QUOTE (Diane Deveney @ 23rd Sep 2008, 07:32pm) *
Hi
Patrick Deveney had 5 children. 3 are still alive and the 2 youngest are dead. My dad was aged 7 at the time of the murder. The children were in school at the time of the incident but my dad recalls coming home from school and witnessing the grusome aftermath. The family were placed in care and experienced a traumatic and stigmatised childhood. All 5 went on to marry and have families of their own. Betty died aged 36 of alcohol related problems and Jimmy died aged 50 of a sudden cardiac arrest. George, Hugh and Sadie are still alive and fairly well. We are a close family. My cousin did a lot of research into this a few years ago so I'll ask her if she knows anything which may help you with your research.


Posted by: martinjmurray 16th Nov 2015, 09:46pm

Hi I have contact details of a guy who is related to John Lyons. I have details of thru the case. Message me and I'll help

Posted by: Guest 25th Oct 2017, 12:30pm

Diane decent anything that you can provide would be helpful.

Posted by: *Martinjmurray* 19th Nov 2017, 09:24pm

Lindylou08 any information on Jon Brady case would be useful. I see he lived in carrack street, but it's totally demolished.