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Posted by: Paul Kelly 11th Feb 2006, 12:45pm

My Garngad Family History


A couple of years ago I became very interested in investigating my family history. I knew that my great grandfather, Hugh Kelly, died in the early 1950s, aged nearly 90 years, at McNeil Street, Hutchesontown, Gorbals. I thought I was going to find a lot of family connections with the Gorbals. Instead, all roads led to Garngad.

Hugh Kelly was born in Meenavoy, Stranorlar, County Donegal in 1866. He moved to Glasgow around 1885 and lodged with his older brother Willie Kelly and family at 27 Villiers Street, Garngad. Hugh married Elizabeth McCormick at St Mungo's RC Church, Townhead on 18 July 1890. Elizabeth McCormick was born in 1863 near Killygordon, Donegal and moved to Scotland in 1864 as an infant with her parents. The McCormicks settled 1st at Carnbroe, a small North Lanarkshire town between Coatbridge and Bellshill. Elizabeth was the 1st born of the family and the McCormicks had 7 other children, all born in Scotland. One was born in Carnbroe, one in Dalziel(Motherwell), one in Mossend, Bellshill, one at Dalmarnock Road, Bridgeton and the last 3 at Turner Street, Garngad. (4 of these children died as infants). After arriving in Scotland in 1864, the McCormicks spent about 8 years moving from job to job in the North Lanarkshire area before finally settling at 32 Turner Street, Garngad around 1872. Elizabeth's address is given as 32 Turner St at the time of her marriage to Hugh in 1890.

So where exactly are Turner Street and Villiers Street? Well, they no longer exist! The last time I was home in Glasgow, I purchased an 1894 map of the St Rollox (Townhead, Port Dundas and Garngad) district of Glasgow from the Mitchell library. In 1894, the northern part of Garngad consisted of 4 parallel streets, each running in a south to north direction. Starting from the west, the 4 streets were Turner Street, Villiers Street, Bright Street and Cobden Street. These 4 parallel streets were enclosed on the north by Charles Street and on the south by Garngad Road. Both Charles St and Garngad Road still exist today, though Garngad Road is now called Royston Road. In the late 1800s these 6 congested streets of north Garngad could be described as a 'Little Ireland'. I have studied the 1881, 1891 and 1901 census records at the Mitchell library. About 90% of the households in Turner St, Villiers St, Bright St and Charles St were headed by a person born in Ireland. Cobden St and Garngad Road had more of a mix of Irish and Scottish families. Overall, however, I would say that about 75% of the households in these 6 streets of north Garngad were Irish households.

To the south of Garngad Road was south Garngad. Here there were streets such as Middleton Place, Gourlay Place, Garngadhill, Tharsis Street, Dunolly Street, Rosemount Street and Millburn Street. I didn't study the census records for south Garngad as closely, but from what I could see, there was a good mix of Scottish and Irish families. However, it was clear that south Garngad was not as nearly heavily populated as north Garngad in the late 1800s. I understand that south Garngad became more populated in the early 1900s with the building of many new tenements and the creation of several new streets such as Gadshill Street, Glenbarr Street and Rhymer Street.

After marrying in 1890, Hugh Kelly and Eliza McCormick stayed at 248 Charles Street, Garngad. 248 Charles Street was located betweeen the northern entrances to Turner St and Villiers St. My grandfather, James Kelly, was born there in 1895. The Kelly family moved to a 'better' home at McNeil Street, Hutchesontown, Gorbals around 1910. After fighting in France in the 1st World War, my grandfather, James Kelly, married my grandmother Sarah Rutherford - who came from Stranorlar, Donegal - in the mid 1920s and had 7 children. My grandparents settled 1st in Bright St, Garngad. In the early 1930s they moved to Gadshill St, Garngad where my father, James Kelly, was born in 1934. The family finally settled at Avonspark St, Balornock after the 2nd World War.

In the slum clearances following the 2nd World War, no part of Glasgow was more decimated than Garngad. Many Garngad families were relocated to the new peripheral Glasgow housing schemes such as Easterhouse. (I understand that one of the 1st major slum clearances in Glasgow was carried out in north Garngad as early as 1933!).

My mother's father, Michael Connolly, was born in Clea, Keady, County Armagh in 1893. He came to Glasgow around 1915 and lodged at Garngad Road, Garngad with his relatives - the Moans (or Mones). He married my grandmother Sarah McKenzie - who came from Taylor Street, Townhead - in the early 1920s and had 11 children. My maternal grandparents settled 1st in Bright St, Garngad. In the early 1930s they moved to Dinwiddie St, Germiston, where my mother, Ann Connolly, was born in 1937. The family finally settled at Stamford St, Barrowfield after the 2nd World War.

Many things have been written about the Gorbals. Little in comparison is said about Garngad. It is almost forgotten. The fact that Garngad's name was changed to Royston in 1942 does not help much! It is as if we were meant to forget Garngad. Industrial Glasgow had several Irish ghettoes such as the Gorbals(Hutchesontown), the Calton, parts of Bridgeton and of course Garngad. However, the concentration of Irish families was probably at its highest in Garngad. It has been documented that there was a distinct Garngad accent - half polite, half Irish. Up to the 1950s you could tell someome was from Garngad as soon as they opened their mouth.

My parents met in 1964 and married in 1968. It turned out that my 2 grandmothers knew each other as they had been neighbours at Bright St in the late 1920s and early 1930s. I was born in Garrowhill, Baillieston, Glasgow in 1971 and have lived in Botswana, southern Africa since 1996. (Absence makes the heart grow fonder). Paul Kelly

Posted by: jimmyd 11th Feb 2006, 02:08pm

Welcome Paul,what a great post , I really enjoyed reading it, excellent historical piece,I do hope it results in some more info for your project. wink.gif

Posted by: valros 12th Feb 2006, 09:39pm

Hi Paul,
What a great piece of nostalgia you have given me with that post. I know every street in that area that you mentioned.
My grandmother lived in Villiers Street, and many school friends lived in Bright Street, Villiers Street and Cobden Street.

I haven't been in the area for over 40 years but I know it's all changed now.

Thanks for the memory

Valros

Posted by: Angie 6th May 2006, 01:50pm

Hi Paul.

It is true that Turner St, Villiers St, and Cobden Street no longer exist. Bright Street still exists though it is not in exactly the same location as the old Bright Street. Charles Street and Royston Road (formerly Garngad Road) both still exist.

The area that you describe as north Garngad now consists of 5 large tower blocks known as the Charles Street flats. The tower blocks are between Charles Street and Royston Road, where Turner, Villiers, Bright and Cobden Streets used to be. The new Bright Street is to the west of the tower blocks.

There is a website known as VIRTUAL MITCHELL. It has many pictures of the old streets of Glasgow. There are pictures of Cobden Street and Garngad Road. The pictures of Cobden Street are very striking. Check it out.

Angie

Posted by: davidrpowell 11th May 2006, 05:21pm

Hi Paul,
My name is David Powell. I am a teacher at Saint Roch's Secondary School in the Gargad - been teaching there since 1972. My mother - Margaret Rodgers - was born in Middleton Place and later lived on Garngadhill. She is 85 and going strong although she has Alzeimer's. She spoke very fondly of the Garngad, especially the Hill, which she described as 'sylvan' even though it was amidst the smoke and smell from all the surrounding factories.
I am putting together A History Wall in the school at present and part of the display will be on the Garngad. I have some cracking photos but could do with a lot more.
The History Wall opening ceremony is on Friday evening, 23rd June 2006 if you are interested.
Regards,
David

Posted by: Paul Kelly 14th May 2006, 10:35am

Hi David.

Unfortunately I won't be able to attend the Opening of your Wall as I stay overseas. I would love to see it and the old photographs. Is there no way of putting those photographs online? The next time I am home in Glasgow I will definitely come and see it. I am going to inform some of my family members who stay in the Glasgow area about the Opening of the Wall and see if they are interested.

I am also a secondary school teacher. I teach Maths and Statistics at a senior secondary school in Botswana.

Middleton Place is another street which no longer exists! I found it on my old 1894 map or the Garngad area. Middleton Place was pretty much an extension of Turner Street, south of Garngad Road. Turner Street ran in a north to south direction from Charles Street to Garngad Road. The street continued south of Garngad Road down to Garngadhill and was called Middleton Place.

I agree with Angie that the Charles Street high rise flats now occupy the area of north Garngad once occupied by Turner St, Villiers St, Bright St and Cobden St.
Bright Street is the only one of the 4 streets which still exists, though it has been moved about 100 metres west of its old location.

I understand that the Charles Street Flats are enclosed on the west by the 'new' Bright Street, on the east by Garnock Street, on the north by Charles Street and on the south by Royston Road (formerly Garngad Road). Royston Post Office next to the flats is located on what was once Turner Street.

Paul

Posted by: valros 14th May 2006, 12:18pm

Hello David,

I would love to see that wall if I can. I have taken note of the date.
So you are a teacher at my old school? I was a pupil of both St. Roch's Primary and Secondary, Mr Kelly was headmaster when I was there.

Paul,

I lived the first 23 years of my life in Garngad, my Mother and Father had their first house in Middleton-all gone well before I was born, they also lived in Garngadhill, then Villiers Street and on to Rhymer Street.
I can remember when pretty young--there was a girl named Rodgers from Roystonhill, it's a bit vague but the name Mattie comes to mind for some reason--maybe a relative?

I loved my childhood in that area, they were very happy years.

Thanks for the memories

Valros smile.gif

Posted by: davidrpowell 14th May 2006, 12:58pm

Hi Paul and Valros,
Many of the photographs of Garngad can be found on the following 3 websites: RCAHMS (Royal Commision on the Ancient and Historical Monuments). Use the Canmore database (you will have to register but it's free). Just insert keywords like Gargad, Royston etc. Do the same with the other 2 websites, The Glasgow Story and SCRAN. If you register with Friends Reunited there are lots of people registered when John Kelly was Headmaster as well as a few photos.

Former pupils tell me that John Kelly used to sway backwards and forwards on his feet when he was talking to them - proof positive that he lost his toes in the First World War!

I am developing our school website which has a bit of history in the Aims and Background section. This will be further developed over the next year or so and I will add any copyright free phtos there. The website is found at:
www.st-rochs-sec.glasgow.sch.uk

Former pupils like yourself Valros are welcome to attend the opening ceremony of the History Wall. Tickets will be free and there will be a free buffet. If you would like a ticket, email me at the school at: DPowell@st-rochs-sec.glasgow.sch.uk

Posted by: valros 14th May 2006, 11:19pm

Thank you for your reply David and the site addresses, I will be looking into the St Roch's one regularly!!
I have been registered on Friends Reunited for a few years now and actually got in touch with someone who was a huge part of my childhood and has lived in Canada since 1967.

It is true that Mr Kelly swayed when standing--he was very strict with the boys but more lenient with the girls,but a very fair man.

I still have my school report card with his name on it--now that's a relic ha ha .

I remember hearing a long time back that one of the English teachers became Headmaster after Mr Kelly retired. Not sure if I have the spelling of his name correct but it was Mr Brickley???
He was also a Scout master and on some Sundays the scouts would meet in Rhymer Steet at the "Boys end" of the school, they had a pipe band and it was good to watch.
My Mother's windows looked into the school at the top of Glenbar Street.

Thanks again David

Valros

Posted by: magsos 15th May 2006, 06:22am

Hello David,
I am also a former pupil of St Rochs Secondary School,from 1954/57..Mr Kelly was also the headmaster there,during my time,and i have fond memories of him..As Valros says he was a strict,but kind man,and he was always interested in his pupils.

It is true,that he did sway,when talking to you,and always wore boots.it was said he had no toes.

My parents were born in the Garngad,Villiers St to be exact,and were married in St Rochs church,around 1930 i think.

I would dearly love to have a look at the diplay wall,but will look up the website given..many thanks..magsos.

p.s. i was friends with a girl from roystonhill called patricia rodgers..maybe thats the one you mean valros.

Great story from paul kelly.i enjoyed reading about his family history very much.

Posted by: valros 16th May 2006, 01:11pm

Hi Magsos,

Maybe it was Patricia but Mattie still sticks in my mind--maybe an older sister or relative?

Valros smile.gif

Posted by: lizmac 17th May 2006, 02:08am

Hi David and Paul,Loved reading your posts on the garngad i also came from Villiers St and went to St Roch's from 58/61.
David i will check out the school website wish i could be there i live near Boston so i'm afraid i won't make it.Cheers Liz.

Hi Margaret and Val.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 17th May 2006, 10:16am

Hi.

I just wanted to add that I am not related to the former headmaster of St Roch's Secondary School - Mr John Kelly (well I don't think I am). I know that my father, James Kelly (born 1934 Garngad) attended St Roch's Primary School and then St Mungo's Academy, Townhead. I am not sure which schools my grandfather, James Kelly (born 1895 Garngad) attended.

Paul

Posted by: AndyR1 31st May 2006, 09:08pm

Hi Paul and David . First off I would like to say how much info this site has and how good it has been to be able to get to know an area and also a time that I never lived in . Both of my Grandparents came from the area and I`ve been trying for a few years now to find out as much as I can . I would like to say to David that I hope to attend the opening of his memory wall and also bring along my father who was born in the area and is now in his 80`s. so see you all soon . Andy

Posted by: marina 31st May 2006, 09:33pm

this has been a great read, ill be popping in to see the next episode, good luck paul on finding out more

Posted by: valros 1st Jun 2006, 08:52am

AndyR1,

Good to see someone else having connections with the area.
If I knew your Dad's name I may have heard of him or heard my parents mention the name.
Possibly Lizmac and Magsos too would recognise the name.

What was it you wanted to know about the area as it was ? If I know anything I will certainly tell you.

Valros

Posted by: AndyR1 3rd Jun 2006, 07:00am

Thanks Valros the name of the families are Reidford, Clark and Brown and as far as I can tell the Reidfords lived in 74 Earlston Avenue from the early 1930`s until the 1950`s but the families lived in the area before these dates. The Clark/Brown family had a grocery shop in the area but I dont know its name. Any help would be great as I`ve got family in Canada who are trying to find out more about Garngad.

Posted by: valros 3rd Jun 2006, 08:16am

AndyR1

My cousin and family lived at 134 Earlston Avenue in the mid to late 50s, I will ask them if they knew any of the names mentioned.
I lived close by myself but didn't know many people in the Avenue.

There were a couple of dairy shops that I can remember in it at that time, one was Anderson's dairy, the other was used much less.
I will post if I find out anything

Valros

Posted by: Paul Kelly 6th Jun 2006, 10:10am

At the start of the 20th century Glasgow was known as the 2nd city of the British Empire. Only London had a greater population.
Glasgow's population continued to grow and peaked at around 1.1 million in the 1931 census.

In the 1920s, Garngad had the highest population density of any area in the city of Glasgow with people living literally on top of one another. There was no space available for the construction of extra accommodation within the area due to the large number of factories - the very thing that had drawn so many people to the area in the 1st place.

The tenements of old Garngad had been quickly constructed to house the large influx of workers from mainly the northern counties of Ireland. These buildings were of low quality and only had outside communal toilets. Many large families had to stay in single-roomed homes. A few fortunate families stayed in two-roomed dwellings. There was gross overcrowding. Respiratory and lung diseases were rife due to the high levels of pollution from the factories. Mortality rates were high and Garngad's slums were considered to be amongst the worst in Europe. Something had to be done to alleviate the situation.

In 1933, Glasgow's 1st major slum clearance programme of the 20th century was started by the Glasgow Corporation in Garngad. Many of the worst buildings were demolished and new accommodation was built in their place. Some families were rehoused in the newly constructed Garngad tenements, though a large number were rehoused in Germiston, Blackhill and Provanmill, areas to the east of Garngad.

The Blackhill housing scheme opened in 1935. Around 40% of the scheme's original tenants were from Garngad. Blackhill was one of the most notorious housing schemes in Glasgow. It was the home of the late Arthur Thompson and more recently Paul Ferris.
Most of Blackhill was demolished in 1990 to make way for the M80 motorway.

Following the 2nd World War, even more intensive slum clearances were carried out by the Glasgow Corporation. These slum clearances took place in many of the inner city areas of Glasgow:- Garngad (again!), Gorbals, Bridgeton, Calton, Gallowgate, Townhead, Cowcaddens and others.
New housing schemes were built on the periphery of Glasgow- Easterhouse, Castlemilk, Drumchapel, etc - to rehouse people from these areas. The Scottish new towns of East Kilbride, Cumbernauld, Livingston and Irvine were also built.
Many Garngad families were relocated to the new housing schemes in the east and north of Glasgow - Easterhouse, Cranhill, Ruchazie, Barlanark, Garthamlock, Barmulloch etc.

Garngad's name was changed to Royston in 1942.

The slum clearances following the 2nd World War virtually obliterated Garngad's identity. Many old street names had been lost forever. More significantly, most of Garngad's families had gone.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 12th Jun 2006, 01:28pm

I was wondering if any of you have ever searched for your Garngad ancestors' birth, marriage and death certificates and census records on the www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk website or at the Mitchell Library. If you have, you would have realised that Garngad or Garngadhill did not exist as a distinct area on official documents in the late 1800s and early 1900s. The streets of Garngad were invariably described as being in the districts of St Rollox, Townhead, Dennistoun or even Springburn.

For example, my grandfather's 1895 birth certificate states that he was born at 248 Charles Street in the district of Dennistoun. Back then, Dennistoun was probably the 'poshest' area in the east end of Glasgow. Although it was to the immediate south east of Garngad, Dennistoun was in many ways a million miles from Garngad.
(Charles St was in fact in north Garngad and wasn't even close to Dennistoun.)

Garngad or Garngadhill only started to appear as a distinct area on official documents in the early 1900s (possibly around 1910).

In the late 1800s, the district of St Rollox usually referred to Garngad, Sighthill (Fountainwell Road) and the northern part of Townhead (around Castle St, Kennedy St, Parliamentary Road, Martyr St and Glebe St).
The southern part of Townhead (around High Street and Glasgow Cross) was in the district of Blackfriars.

Nowadays, Royston (formerly Garngad) and Sighthill are home to many of Glasgow's asylum seekers and refugees. In the early 21st century, just as in the late 19th century, Royston is the first home of many new immigrants to Glasgow.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 13th Jun 2006, 02:58pm

If you are interested in reading more about the Garngad area then you should do a GOOGLE search for

ROYSTON ROAD PROJECT HISTORY OF THE AREA

The history section of the Royston Road Project website was written by Jim Friel and contains a lot of information about Garngad/Townhead and the northeast of Glasgow.

TheGlasgowStory website also has information on Garngad, including a photograph from 1925. I would love to know where exactly in Garngad it was taken.

To see the photograph, do a GOOGLE search for

THEGLASGOWSTORY GARNGAD SLUM HOUSING

The photograph can be enlarged.

Regards,

Paul

Posted by: valros 13th Jun 2006, 10:35pm

Thanks for the information Paul.

I have already read all of Jim Friel's account of the Garngad and it gave vivid memories.
His Father in law was the very first barber to cut my hair, he was known as Joe the barber--Joe Piscane, his shop was on Royston Road.

Haven't looked at the other site but I will

Valros smile.gif

Posted by: maggie wilkie 14th Jun 2006, 07:32pm

very interesting ive been reseaching my tree too ,and my mothers family came from parliamentary rd ,always wondered where is was now i know,
maggie

Posted by: valros 14th Jun 2006, 07:47pm

I used to go with my Mother to do shopping in Parliamentary Road Maggie, and often went into Tyler's shoe shop for shoes for school !!

Valros smile.gif

Posted by: maggie wilkie 14th Jun 2006, 08:15pm

my great grandmother lived there but was around 1900

Posted by: valros 14th Jun 2006, 09:22pm

I think a wee bit before my time Maggie biggrin.gif

Valar

Posted by: maggie wilkie 15th Jun 2006, 07:05pm

yes i gathered that lol u would be over 100

Posted by: big tommy 16th Jun 2006, 06:00pm

Valros

I was born in Parliamentaty Road in 1929.

Ma maw couldny get a hoose laugh.gif

Tommy

Posted by: big tommy 16th Jun 2006, 06:05pm

By the way people

Its no Garngad any more !!!! it is Royston and Roystonhill !!

Tommy

Posted by: valros 16th Jun 2006, 08:06pm

Tommy,

It's been Royston Road and Roystonhill since 1942 but people still said Garngad. I never knew it as Garngadhill or road but my parents did.

Valros

Posted by: Paul Kelly 28th Jul 2006, 04:53pm

I have recently come across another website which contains a lot of information about the old Garngad. It is the homepage of the recently deceased Robert McLaughlin. In order to see the website you should do a GOOGLE search for

ROBERT MCLAUGHLIN HOMEPAGE GARNGAD

Posted by: valros 28th Jul 2006, 05:35pm

Paul,

Thank you very much for that information, will go and try it out.

Best wishes

Valros

Posted by: big tommy 28th Jul 2006, 08:27pm

Hello guys aand Gals

My late wife was a KELLY' and by a strange coincidence her mother was a ' MC CORMACK'
They wete fron Bishiopbriggs ,

.I was baptized in St Rochs School in 1931 .My mum lived in Parliamentary Road ,where i was born in my Grannies house.

MyGranda lived in Rhymer Stret as did many aunts and a few cousins .
My auntie was married to willy Lilly .Although, I speny all of my early

Anothe Aunt was my auntie Nelly . who married Eddie Fitzpatrick
I was born in Parlianmentary Road in my Grannie'house.in 1929.
I was baptizes in St Rochs in 1931 ( another story to be found) on this great site
Most of my early life was in Cowcaddens Cowcadens before movining up here to Bishopbriggs (among the toffs )Best of luck yours Tommy

Posted by: Paul Kelly 29th Jul 2006, 01:33pm

Hi Tommy.

I loved your story about being christened both ways. A real Glasgow story.

Tommy, there are too many Kellys in this world!

Kelly is the 2nd most common Irish surname. Murphy is the most common.

In fact, Kelly is the most common Irish surname found in Scotland.
If I am recalling correctly, Kelly is the 38th most common surname in Scotland.

McCormick is a Scottish surname, originating in Argyll.
McCormack is an Irish surname.

My McCormick greatgreatgrandparents came to Scotland from Donegal, Ireland in 1864. I know they were illiterate as they signed their childrens' Scottish birth certificates with crosses.

I am sure their real surname was McCormack but their surname was recorded incorrectly by officials on arrival in Scotland. In fact, nearly all Irish McCormack immigrants to Scotland had their surnames recorded in the Scottish form of McCormick.

The McCormack surname is very common in eastern Donegal. There are also a few McCormicks in Donegal, but they are descendants of the Scottish plantation of Ulster in the early 1600s.

I am going on a bit. I think I should introduce a new topic about Irish surnames in Scotland.

Paul

Posted by: valros 29th Jul 2006, 01:42pm

Hello Paul,

Just to let you know that I read through that site by Robert MC Laughlin and thoroughly enjoyed it.

At the beginning when he is mentioning characters--I remember so well my parents talking about these same people, and one or two names I recall myself as he came into his own era.

He has left a wonderful wealth of information for future generations of his family and seemed an extremely nice person.

Thanks again for bringing my attention to the homepage.

Valros smile.gif

Posted by: Paul Kelly 22nd Aug 2006, 10:17am

Hi again.

The GOOGLE search for

ROBERT MCLAUGHLIN HOMEPAGE GARNGAD

is no longer working.

In order to see the website you now have to do a GOOGLE search for

THE GARNGAD HERITAGE THE UNPUBLISHED WORK

You will come across articles written by 3 gentlemen about the
old Garngad:

Robert McLaughlin, Ronnie McDonald and a Mr F G Locherty

Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 23rd Aug 2006, 03:10pm

In 'The Garngad Heritage, The Unpublished Work', Robert McLaughlin says he remembers that one of the families that stayed next to him at Tharsis Street in the 1940s was the Collins family, and that he thinks one of the Collins boys was convicted of murder in later life. I recently came across a book in a bookshop here in Gaborone called 'Hugh Collins - Autobiography of a Murderer'. The book is about convicted murderer, Hugh Collins, born in Royston (Garngad) in 1951. It is the story of the archetypal Glasgow hard man. The Gorbals had Jimmy Boyle. The Garngad had Hugh Collins. The book won't be everyone's cup of tea and the language is very strong.

Collins describes his early years growing up in Royston (Garngad) and his teenage years as a member of the Garngad gang - The Shamrock - of which he claims to have been a founding member, aged 15, along with his friends 'Wee' Joe Mulligan, Joe 'The Bear' Devlin and Albert Faulds.
He gives a vivid description of Glasgow's street gangs of the 1960s:
The Shamrock (from Garngad), The Cumbie (from Cumberland Street, Gorbals), The Calton Tongs, The Bridgeton Spurs and The Maryhill Fleet. He describes how he was stabbed and slashed, aged 15, in a gang fight against The Cumbie, and again, aged 18, in a gang fight against The Tongs. He explicitly describes his gangland life which continued into his 20s and which ended ultimately in tragedy. In 1977, Collins was convicted of the murder of William Mooney, whom he stabbed to death in a Glasgow bar. Collins was released from prison in 1992 and nowadays lives with his wife in Edinburgh.

The early part of the book has a lot of info on Garngad in the 1950s and 1960s. Chapter 1 of the book starts as follows:

I'm five and a half years old, attending St Roch's Primary School in Glasgow. The teacher, Miss O'Donnell, has asked us each to stand, walk to the front of the class, and tell the others what our fathers do.
'My da's a railway worker,' says one, and sits down.
'My da's a postman. He delivers the mail.'
It's my turn, and I walk to the front with some pride.
'My da,' I say, 'is Wullie Collins. He's like Robin Hood. He takes from the rich and gives to the poor. My da's a bank robber.'
The class erupts, shrieking with laughter. I'm immediately embarrassed. Miss O'Donnell is taken by suprise. That's the end of that exercise, and my Granny is summoned.
'He's not a bank robber, Hughie. You mustn't say that. You musn't ever say that.'
So who had told me? Did I get the idea from Ginger McBride?

I guess you will have to buy the book if you want to read more.

Posted by: Rabbie 23rd Aug 2006, 10:46pm

Might just huv a get a copy of that!

Might be worth a wee looky here, if yer missed it. The link is good as of time of posting.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/robert.mclaughlin4/page4.html biggrin.gif

Posted by: Paul Kelly 30th Aug 2006, 08:45am

Hi Valros.

In 'The Garngad Heritage, The Unpublished Work', Robert McLaughlin and Ronnie McDonald both write affectionately about a man called Big Willie John Monaghan. Even Hugh Collins in his autobiography makes a warm reference towards him. I am sure Big Willie John must have been a well known character in the Garngad area in the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s. I was wondering if you knew him.
I have also been meaning to ask you if you knew a Glen or Glenn family from the Garngad. They would have been distant relatives of mine through my McCormick ancestors.

All the best,

Paul

Posted by: big tommy 30th Aug 2006, 12:33pm

DEar John

My grandmother was a Mc Cormack until she married my Granda
Tommy

Posted by: valros 30th Aug 2006, 12:58pm

Hi Paul,

Willie John Monaghan is a name I heard a lot of while growing up in Garngad. Do you know if he was related to the Romeo family? If so, then I do know who the person is--I didn't know him personally though.

I was brought up in Rhymer Street but knew such a lot of people from the "Road"

Many of the names mentioned in the webpage, I have heard my parents speak of. Rosie Romy as she was known as, lived two closes away from my grandmother in Villiers Street. I don't remember the woman myself but I knew her grandsons through school and living in the area.

Can you tell me where the Glenn family lived Paul?

How I dearly wish I had seen that Garngad site before Robert McLaughlin died, there are a few questions I would loved to have asked him.

Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

My cousin's wife was brought up in Provanhill Street and I have printed out some of it to send on to her because she too will know many of the names.
I will ask her if she knew of a Glenn family.

In fact Paul, one of the articles there is about Hogmanay in the old Hibernian Hall, she and my cousin used to go there all the time when it changed to Royston Social Club, I was in it myself a few times.

Small world isn't it? wink.gif

Valros

Posted by: Paul Kelly 16th Sep 2006, 09:51am

Hi Valros.

The Glen family were staying in Bright Street at the time of the 1931 census but I don't know what happened to them after that. It is possible that they left the Garngad area in the mid 1930s during the 1st slum clearance programme as happened with a lot of Garngad families. None of my older living relatives seem to know what happened to the Glen family

Paul.

Posted by: valros 16th Sep 2006, 10:45am

Hi Paul,

re-Glenn Family, if they left Garngad mid 30s then it's way before my time--I can't even recall my parents mention the name,this is the way I got to know about others from their era.

When I was at St Roch's Primary, I had a teacher called Mr Glenn, he lived in Stirling Road but don't know if his parents had ever came from Bright Street.!!

Valros smile.gif

Posted by: Paul Kelly 16th Sep 2006, 02:41pm

Thanks for that Valros. I wasn't suggesting for a moment that you were around in the 1930s! Sorry about that. I know that Sammy Glen and Mary Glen (nee O'Brien) were staying at Bright Street, Garngad with their young family in 1931. I thought you might have come across some of their descendants since you grew up in the Garngad area. Mary O'Brien (born Garngad 1891/92) was the daughter of Mary McCormick (born Bridgeton 1866), my greatgrandmother Elizabeth McCormick's younger sister. (See introduction to My Garngad Family History). Sammy Glenn was also born in Garngad around 1890 and his parents were Patrick Glen and Margaret O'Neill.

Regards,

Paul

Posted by: valros 16th Sep 2006, 04:09pm

Hi Paul,

No need for apologies--I had a wee bit of a laugh when I read it though smile.gif Mind you, I am a bit "long in the tooth now !!!!

If I ever come across anyone who knew of a family called Glenn who lived in the area, I will let you know.

I will have another read at your history.

Best wishes

Valros

Posted by: sumac 18th Sep 2006, 05:19pm

Someone mentioned a Monaghan. I went to school with a Mary Monaghan in the 50s and 60s who came from Roystonhill. Her best pal was Mario McHaffie and we all went to St. David's School in St. James' Road, Townhead. Does anybody know if she is related? mellow.gif

Posted by: valros 18th Sep 2006, 09:24pm

Hi Sumac,

I don't remember Mary Monaghan from Roystonhill but when I was in Primary(St Roch's) there was a lad in my class called Albert Monaghan.
I don't know where in Garngad he lived but perhaps he was a relative?

Valros

Posted by: Paul Kelly 3rd Oct 2006, 01:13pm

Hi Valros.

I have recently discovered from my dad's older sister Mary, who turns 80 next year, that Sammy and Mary Glen (nee O'Brien) had 3 children - John, Betty and Ina - all of whom must have been born around 1920. My Aunt Mary confirmed that the Glenns had been staying at Bright Street, Garngad in the early 1930s but she does not know what became of them thereafter.

My interest in the Glens started when I came across Mary O'Brien's death registration details on the net. (A married woman's death certificate is usually recorded under her maiden surname and the deceased's parents are also usually given.) Mary O'Brien - daughter of Willie O'Brien and Mary McCormick - died in Glasgow (district not specified) in 1987, aged 96 years. I already knew from the scotlandspeople website that Mary O'Brien had been born in 1891 at Turner Street, Garngad.

Paul.

Posted by: valros 3rd Oct 2006, 09:37pm

Paul,

It's amazing what you can find out on the net, isn't it?

It's a cert that my parents would have known the Glenn's from Bright Street because they lived next street in Villiers Street in the late 20s and early 30s, they moved to Rhymer Street around
in 1934 during what was called the slum clearance.
My Grand Mother lived in Villiers Street until the houses were being closed up and demolished.

I recall names of people that my parents spoke about and would you believe that a Lizzie Glenn was one !!! I don't know what street she lived in.
I had what was known as "old parents" Paul, my Mother was 40 before I was born so I can only go on names that I heard.

Wish I could help more smile.gif

Valros

Posted by: magsos 6th Oct 2006, 07:24am

paul.i have found the posts on garngad to be very interesting,especially robert mclaughlins web page.ithink everyone should do one just like it for future generations.

my family all came from the garngad.my father thomas coughlan,was born in 1910,at 4 villiers st,to thomas coughlan ,and margaret cahill.

my mother was barbara burnett,born1914 to stephen burnett,and barbara ingram,at 9 turner st.
they were married in st rochs chapel in 1931.their witnesses according to their marriage cert,were terence welsh,of 39 villiers at,and annie mc naughton,of 236 castle st.

i have often heard my mother speak of rosy romy,i believe her name was really romeo,and her maiden name monaghan.

all my relations resided in the garngad for a while,before being shifted to new houses in springburn, balornock, easterhouse,castlemilk,parkhead,etc,etc.

my fathers siblings.were james,and lawrence,katie,and agnes,and rubina coughlan.
my mothers siblings were,mary,betty,rose,and millie,tommy.and steve burnett.
it is a vey interesting subject...please keep it going.

Posted by: valros 6th Oct 2006, 11:28am

Magsos,

I remember my mother speaking about Terry Welsh--can you believe he was her coalman smile.gif

My parents would most certainly have known yours too.

They lived at 12 Villiers Street too then I think my grandmother got their wee single end when they moved to Rhymer Street.

My parents were also married in St Roch's on 11th June 1923, I think I still have their marriage certificate !! I was married in St Roch's too.

Valros

Posted by: valros 6th Oct 2006, 11:38am

Paul,

When you first mentioned the name Glenn I could only think about the school teacher, then it came to me when you posted one of the names--Elizabeth--that my Mother spoke about a Lizzie Glenn.
I don't know whether this was the woman's maiden name or married name.
I also get the feeling that I met the woman a couple of times when I was in my teens so if that is the case--and it is the same person--chances are she didn't move too far away from the area!!

Like magsos, I am finding this thread interesting.

Valros

Posted by: J.McInally 13th Dec 2006, 09:06pm

Hello everybody. I found this site through reading Robert McLaughlin's site and I must say the whole route has been very interesting. I am an ex-Garngader myself, and I state here and now it will always be the Garngad to me, I never refer to it as Royston, I even address all my letters to there as Garngad ( the Garden of God ) to this day and they still get there. I was born in Rhymer St and at an early age (5) we moved to Tharsis St where I lived in the same close as the McQueens and the Collins', referred to by Robert. I ran about with Harry McQueen and Hughie Collins, the guy mentioned by Robert as being jailed for murder, as well as his uncle Alec, among others. It was ironic that when reading through Robert's site that I couldn't recall him, him stating that he had been a policeman and from Tharsis St,that wouldn't have gone un-noticed in Garngad, until he mentioned that he had lived in the Copperwork and had then moved to the flats, that's when everything came together and I realised that I had ran about with his brother Tommy. I have since E-Mailed Tommy and he does recall me and as I had praised his brother's site, he thanked me for my kind words, it was just a shame that I never got the chance to express them to Robert himself. I knew Big Willie John Monaghan and all his family, many's the times I climbed the drainpipe for Mrs Monaghan because she had left her key in the house. I ran about with and played football with his son Willie junior, I even manged to bump into him on a visit back to the Garngad to see my old man, who still resides there ( age 82 ).I stood at Celtic Park with Willie junior and the Romeos (or the Romies as they were referred to ), and willie juniors brothers James and Terry. The Faulds' that Robert mentioned as well were, I am sure, cousins of the Monaghans, and Albert is back living in the Garngad. Sad to say one of the daughters, Helen, who I also knew from my childhood. died not too long ago. My Father was brought up, and as I said, still lives in the Garngad. My Mother, who has sadly passed away, was also brought up in the Garngad, her maiden name was McDade.

To Paul Kelly, Paul thanks for another bit of history and nostalgia about the Garngad. Between you and Robert McLaughlin it has been to say the least very interesting.
Can I also add that as far as I know the wee Roch will be celebrating it's Centenary this year, I am sure.
'Bye everyone, Joe.

Posted by: valros 13th Dec 2006, 10:48pm

Hi Joe,

What a good post you have made, such a lot of information there.

Robert Mc Laughlin's webpage was certainly a great one for me and like yourself, it would have been nice to send him an e-mail about it.

I copied out some things he spoke about on his site and sent them on to my cousin and his wife, I asked them on the phone if they had known him, they both did know him and called him "Big Robbie" They also recognised the names mentioned.

I had mentioned in a much earlier post that I had a guy called Albert Monaghan in my class in school, could possibly be the same one as you knew. ?

The Centenary for the Primary school and the Church are next year Joe 2007.

I keep hoping that Paul can come up with more bits of history for us smile.gif
I just wish I had kept a diary when I was young and put on paper everything my parents spoke about.

Thanks again for your interesting post Joe.

Best Wishes

Valros

Posted by: Paul Kelly 15th Dec 2006, 07:57am

Hi Joe.

Welcome to Glasgow Guide. I enjoyed reading your post. I remember seeing the McInally surname a couple of times in Robert McLaughlin's website. I think it was in the articles by Ronnie McDonald.

Paul.

Posted by: J.McInally 15th Dec 2006, 11:48pm

I saw them as well Paul, but alas they are not related to me, although I knew quite a lot of McInallys in the area. In the article by Ronnie McDonald, many of the people mentioned in it, were, and still are, friends of my Dads.

Thank you for your welcome.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 8th Jan 2007, 12:32pm

Hi Valros.

Until I read your last post, I wasn't actually aware St Roch's RC Church was celebrating its centenary this year. I had often wondered why my greatgrandparents Hugh Kelly and Elizabeth McCormick/McCormack had married at St Mungo's RC Church, Parson Street, north Townhead, in 1890 and not at St Roch's in Garngad. (They were residing at Villiers Street and Turner Street, Garngad respectively at the time of their marriage.) Now I know why. St Roch's only came into existence in 1907 to help alleviate the pressure on St Mungo's caused by the large Catholic population in Garngad and north Townhead at the start of the 20th century.

Paul

Posted by: valros 14th Jan 2007, 02:55am

Hi Paul,

A friend very kindly got me a calendar especially printed for the centenary year, it says

St. Roch's Garngad 1907----2007

So that is why your great grandparents married in St Mungo's.

Valros

Posted by: J.McInally 19th Feb 2007, 02:50pm

QUOTE (J.McInally @ 16th Dec 2006, 12:05 AM) *
I saw them as well Paul, but alas they are not related to me, although I knew quite a lot of McInallys in the area. In the article by Ronnie McDonald, many of the people mentioned in it, were, and still are, friends of my Dads.

Thank you for your welcome.



I am sorry to say that I spoke to my Father just recently, and he told me that Ronnie McDonald has passed away.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 23rd Feb 2007, 11:05am

Hi Joe.

I am sorry to hear about the death of Ronnie McDonald. I enjoyed reading his articles on the Garngad.

Paul

Posted by: gerry mcdonald 25th Feb 2007, 03:27pm

Ronnie McDonald a "Garngad Man"

My Da passed away peacefully on the 11th of Feb 2007 in Stobhill. He was surrounded by the most important thing in his life, his Family. This was a fitting end to his long and happy life.

The other great loves of my Da's life were, his heritage, St Roch's Juniors and the Garngad. Because although my Da was born in France he was a Garngad man through and through. I grew up listening to all the old stories of the "road" and the "hill" and his old haunt the "Hibs". He also liked his daily flutter in "Smith" the bookies he seldom won, we all believe all his selections carried an extra few pounds.

I am sure everyone knew my Da knows he was a man of strong principles and these principles may not have agreed with everybody but my Da always said that "Everyone had the right to be wrong".

My Da was also a great organiser or so he thought, but on the whole he tried to put other peoples pleasure before his own.

My Da always made sure we had a family holiday every year and we spent many a fantastic time in Jersey with the whole gang. These memories can never be erased and will be cherished forever.

We all thought my Da was indestructible, I'm just glad when the end did come it was just as he would have wanted it surrounded by his family.

There was a massive turnout at the funeral and the hymns and offertory were sung by Patricia fearon. Father Boyle spoke very highly of my Da and my sister Rosemary gave my Da a fantastic eulogy. All this was a great comfort to the family and especially my Wee Mammy.

My Da was not just a good man he was a "GREAT" man, most of all he was a "Garngad Man".

Posted by: valros 25th Feb 2007, 04:42pm

Hello Gerry,

Condolences to you and your family on the death of your father. You are very proud of him,I can see that in the way you speak of him.

Many a time I had to go to Smith's the bookie to put a line on for my Dad. I haven't been up the area for over 40 years but I always loved my growing up years in it, I attended both St Roch's Primary and Secondary schools and never forget my roots.

It was good to hear from you Gerry, best wishes

Valros

Posted by: Angela Chick 25th Feb 2007, 04:46pm

Gerry i dont have anything to say on Garngad history, but just wanted to offer my condolences on the loss of your dad may he rest in peace.

Posted by: Melody 25th Feb 2007, 04:51pm

Gerry, my heart goes out to you. Those beautiful words just created the picture of a lovely and yes ' Great' man. God grant you solace in your loss, it must still be very raw to you just now. God bless and thanks for letting us know your lovely Da.

Posted by: magsos 26th Feb 2007, 12:26am

Gerry,condolences on the passing of your dear Dad.some lovely memories you have of him.

Posted by: lizmac 26th Feb 2007, 12:26am

Hello Gerry,i am so sorry to hear about your father.I knew him many years ago,he was a lovely man.My father (Pat Neeson) and him were pals and my father thought a lot of him.Whenever i came home on holiday from the states,i would go into the hibs and your father would come and sit with us and have a laugh.nice,nice man.
Regards
Liz.

Posted by: cumbie 24th Mar 2007, 06:38am

i was reading your posts and i would like to first give my condolences on your loss. i was wondering what the "The Cumbie (from Cumberland Street, Gorbals)", is. i am from the u.s.

Posted by: Michele 26th Mar 2007, 08:41pm

Hi Paul:
Its been a year since the last posting to your original. I hope you still check for responses.
Thank you for your history - it was interesting and informative. I too am working on family history and came upon my great-great-grandmother (Jane Paterson nee. Devine) who lived at 42 turner Street, Garngadhill. She was born about 1856-1858 and died in 1908 at that address. I came upon an old map povided in the questions section of this site that showed Charles Street and Garngad Road with four unmarked parallel streets in between. Thank you for filling in the blanks and showing me where my family once lived.
Sincerely, Michele McCann

Posted by: Michele 26th Mar 2007, 09:40pm

...and I forgot to mention. I too have a relative by the name of Eliza McCormick. However, she married Daniel Cook and lived in the Govan area.
- Michele McCann

Posted by: Paul Kelly 28th Mar 2007, 12:45pm

Thanks Michele.

The next time you visit Glasgow you should try and buy the 1894 Old Ordnance Survey map for St Rollox, Glasgow. The last time I was home in Glasgow - December 2005 - I bought the 1894 St Rollox map at the Mitchell Library. It is a very detailed map of the Garngad, north Townhead, Sighthill and Port Dundas areas of Glasgow in the late 1800s. The individual tenement buildings on streets such as Turner Street are clearly indicated. My McCormick/McCormack greatgreatgrandparents stayed at 32 Turner Street for many years in the late 1800s. I am sure they must have known your greatgreatgrandparents at 42 Turner Street.



Hi Cumbie.

You must be referring to post #37 of this topic. As far as I am aware, the Cumbie were a 1960s street gang from the Gorbals. They were named after Cumberland Street in the Gorbals.

Cumbie Ya Bass!! (Please don't ask me what this means, but this was once famous Glasgow graffiti)


Regards,

Paul

Posted by: gerry mcdonald 28th Mar 2007, 07:30pm

QUOTE (lizmac @ 26th Feb 2007, 12:43 AM) *
Hello Gerry,i am so sorry to hear about your father.I knew him many years ago,he was a lovely man.My father (Pat Neeson) and him were pals and my father thought a lot of him.Whenever i came home on holiday from the states,i would go into the hibs and your father would come and sit with us and have a laugh.nice,nice man.
Regards
Liz.

Posted by: gerry mcdonald 28th Mar 2007, 08:02pm

QUOTE (lizmac @ 26th Feb 2007, 12:43 AM) *
Hello Gerry,i am so sorry to hear about your father.I knew him many years ago,he was a lovely man.My father (Pat Neeson) and him were pals and my father thought a lot of him.Whenever i came home on holiday from the states,i would go into the hibs and your father would come and sit with us and have a laugh.nice,nice man.
Regards
Liz.
I knew your Da well he was something else. I worked beside him in the caley, no matter what mood you were in Pat Neeson could always tell you a story that would have you in stitches. I could tell you a load of stories about his war escapades.

Posted by: keezy 6th Apr 2007, 06:49pm

soz bout yer da nevr new em dae u no wee benny mcphee or es boys davie an joe or elain brown or tam shannon

Posted by: Paul Kelly 14th Apr 2007, 03:11pm

Hi Michele

http://www.nls.uk/maps/townplans/glasgow_2.html

In my last post I advised you to buy the 1894 Ordnance Survey Map for the St Rollox district of Glasgow. The above website address is for the 1894 Ordnance Survey Map for the whole of Glasgow and the St Rollox district is contained in it. If you zoom in you can see the streets of Garngad in 1894. Turner Street is clearly indicated on sheet VI.7.19

Paul

Posted by: kathleenb 26th Apr 2007, 03:06pm

My name is Kathleen Brannan. I was born 1931 and lived in Bright st. I attended St Roch's.
My mother was Isa Brannan and Father John Brannan. I have a sister Betty and my brother John, like so many died during the War whilst serving in the Navy on the HMS
I have so many fond memories of those days in the tenements. Are there any other old folk like myself out there still.
This is a wonderful site and it is great to read about people from the Garangad, so many sites seem to be folk from the Gorbals or the East End but the Garangad was also a great community lets here more!

Posted by: LETTY JARVIS 4th Jun 2007, 09:22pm

Hello Gerry,
I knew your Da all my life, I agree he was indeed a lovely man
Letty Jarvis (Mc Laughlin)

Posted by: Oor Wullie 6th Jun 2007, 01:08am

QUOTE (kathleenb @ 26th Apr 2007, 03:23 PM) *
My name is Kathleen Brannan. I was born 1931 and lived in Bright st.


My maternal grandmother was born in Bright Street in 1892.

I can't find it on the 1894 map of Glasgow.

Can anybody tell me where it is / was ?.

Posted by: Java 6th Jun 2007, 05:09am

Copied from Paul Kelly's starting post....

So where exactly are Turner Street and Villiers Street? Well, they no longer exist! The last time I was home in Glasgow, I purchased an 1894 map of the St Rollox (Townhead, Port Dundas and Garngad) district of Glasgow from the Mitchell library. In 1894, the northern part of Garngad consisted of 4 parallel streets, each running in a south to north direction. Starting from the west, the 4 streets were Turner Street, Villiers Street, Bright Street and Cobden Street. These 4 parallel streets were enclosed on the north by Charles Street and on the south by Garngad Road. Both Charles St and Garngad Road still exist today, though Garngad Road is now called Royston Road.

Posted by: Oor Wullie 6th Jun 2007, 08:26am

Many thanks to Paul Kelly [ via Java] for the information on Bright Street.

Posted by: Gallusbisom 6th Jun 2007, 04:19pm

First day back for a while, and lo and behold this is the first topic that came up which is interesting because I just heard from a cousin that our Gran (nee Musgrove) her mother's name was Isabella McGinness and she married William Musgrove (Musgrave) in 1874 at St. John's Chapel, Portugal St. and that some of Gran's relatives lived in the area. Circa 1935-40 the only name we have is Edward or William McGinness. A cousin of Gran's perhaps? Very slight chance of this going anywhere but here's hoping. smile.gif
GB

Posted by: Tommy Kennedy 6th Jun 2007, 04:34pm

Does anyone here know/remember the 'Kennedys' who lived at 31 Sandmill Street, Garangard - 1936/37/

Posted by: Paul Kelly 7th Jun 2007, 08:39am

Hi Gallusbisom,

St John's Chapel, Portugal Street was in the Gorbals, not the Garngad. It is easy to get the 2 Gs mixed up. I understand the church no longer exists.


Hi Wullie,

Zoom in on rectangular sheet VI.7.19 to see Bright Street, Garngad in 1894

http://www.nls.uk/maps/townplans/glasgow_2.html



Paul

Posted by: penny dainty 7th Jun 2007, 09:50am

Valros , just noticed with intrest that you remember Andersons Dairy in Earlston Avenue, it was actually owned by my Uncle Alec and Aunt Norah, do you remember much about it that you can tell me about as I was too young to remember much it when it was still there.

Posted by: valros 7th Jun 2007, 11:23am

Hello Penny Dainty,

I certainly do remember Anderston's dairy very well and was in it often, I lived in Rhymer Street which was off Earlston Avenue.
Alec and his wife were a nice couple, my cousin's wife actually worked in their shop for quite some time--she lived in Earlston Avenue too.

When the people were being re-housed, Alec moved his premises to Glebe Street across from the Royal Infirmary, they were there a good few years too.
I moved out of the area and didn't hear any more about them

Valros

Posted by: penny dainty 8th Jun 2007, 07:13am

I can remember the dairy in Glebe Street opposite the hospital, Mum took me there a couple of times when I was a child.Alec is long gone now and I have lost touch with Norah, she may be gone too, my brother still hears from their daughter Fiona .

Posted by: valros 8th Jun 2007, 08:37am

Hi Penny Dainty,

My cousin's wife and I were just talking about the dairy about a month or so ago, she did mention that Mrs Anderson has passed away.

Valros

Posted by: AndyR1 9th Jun 2007, 12:56pm

[size="5"][/size]Hi again its been a while from I was last here, My family lived in Earlston Ave in the 30`s until the 50`s they also moved to glebe st too and had a shop there, the family had a dairy in Parly rd but Im not sure what the shop in glebe st was. Im still searching for any photos of Earlston Ave as of yet Ive had no luck. my family`s names are Reidford/ Clark/ Brown

Posted by: valros 9th Jun 2007, 09:52pm

Andy R1 I've been looking for photos of Earlston Avenue myself. Try and find out what kind of shop it was in Glebe Street, my mother did a lot of shopping in Parliamentary Road.
I don't suppose you have by any chance--a photo of the Grafton Picture hall in Parly Road?

Valros

Posted by: AndyR1 10th Jun 2007, 12:21pm

Sorry Valros I dont have a picture but this is the only thing I could find right now, I do know there are photos about of the picture house

 

Posted by: AndyR1 10th Jun 2007, 12:26pm

The family shop in Glebe st as far as Ive been told was a tailors, something to do with the Clark/Brown side of the family, The shop in Parliamentary rd was a dairy/grocers again Im not sure what part of the road it was on or what it was called.

Posted by: valros 10th Jun 2007, 02:43pm

Thanks for your reply Andy R1, if you ever find a picture of the Grafton will you let me know please--thanks.

There were so many different dairy/grocers in Parliamentary Road but if I knew the name it may come to mind. The tailors in Glebe Street does ring a bell--it's so long ago smile.gif

Valros

Posted by: Lena 11th Jun 2007, 06:21am

QUOTE (Oor Wullie @ 6th Jun 2007, 01:25 AM) *
My maternal grandmother was born in Bright Street in 1892.

I can't find it on the 1894 map of Glasgow.

Can anybody tell me where it is / was ?.



biggrin.gif Hi, my mother Margaret Cassidy, remembers a Kathy Brannan from the Garngard. She was born at 45 Villiers St. She said did you have a sister Betty and a brother John? She tells me her uncle Pat was married to your auntie Nellie. Pat was killed in WWI.

Cheers

Posted by: Guest Maria * 16th Jun 2007, 04:49pm

#84 Andersons Dairy Earlston Avenue

I remember one day I was in the dairy & Carl Denver the country & western singer was in too see his aunty (I think she was the owner) There was a big blue American car outside, he was dressed in a pale blue cowboy style suit (Like the one's the Texan oil men wear) He also had on a big white cowboy hat on. The shop was so crowded as everyone wanted his autograph, he sang a song I can't remember the title, he also said that he knew Elvis & that he had stared along side him in Las Vagas...I don't know if that was true!!! My aunt Margaret stayed there before she moved to Pravanmill...then imigrated to Australia with her family...I think that Lena (last reply page 7 is my cousin as my grandmother was also born in Bright St.I think Turnner St or (Road) as it is now called is where the Costco's & Post Office depot is. I will check the next time I am round that way...I also knew Hugh Colins...I worked part time in the fish & chip shop Royston Rd just arround the corner from Earlston Av...I was 12yars old & also went to St Rochs Sec...I then went on to St Gerards in Govan...the headmaster @ St Rochs at the time was a Mr. Jameson my teachers name was Miss Gewer...her married name was Mrs O Neil.

Posted by: Guest Maria * 16th Jun 2007, 04:58pm

QUOTE (valros @ 10th Jun 2007, 03:00 PM) *
Thanks for your reply Andy R1, if you ever find a picture of the Grafton will you let me know please--thanks.

There were so many different dairy/grocers in Parliamentary Road but if I knew the name it may come to mind. The tailors in Glebe Street does ring a bell--it's so long ago smile.gif

Valros

You will get a Photograph Book of the old Townhead from the Bargain Book Shop In the city centre...there is a photo copy of the Grafton Cinema & the Casino & many many more of that area.

Posted by: penny dainty 18th Jun 2007, 06:20am

Maria , I don't know if Andersons dairy had any other owners apart from my Aunt and Uncle , but I can assure you we had no country singers in our family famous or otherwise, unless he was related to one of the staff maybe.

Posted by: Lena 18th Jun 2007, 09:51am

biggrin.gif Hi, I lived at 45 Earlston Avenue until 1963 prior to moving to Provanmill. We later emigrated to Australia in 1969. So knowing all that information it does sound like you are my cousin Maria and I must say that I am pleased that I put that note on to Kathy Brennan.

Mum tells me that Karl Denver was in Glasgow to attend his ex wife's funeral and probably the reason he turned up at Anderson's Dairy. He was apparently married to Grace Boyle's sister from Rhymer St. Grace was our aunt Jane's pal.

My mum's cousins Betty Smith, Jean Smith and Winnie Keenan also lived in Earlston Ave with their families.

Hopefully now that we have found each other again Maria we can keep in touch. May somehow be able to exchange email addresses.

Posted by: Guest Maria * 22nd Jun 2007, 11:33pm

Reply to #96

Thank you for your added information on Karl Denver Lena...I am glad too, that we have found each other again 38 years is a long time. I would so much like to be able to keep in touch...I don't know how we are going to be able to exchange e-mail addresses...maybe we could meet up & do this?

Your mum (my aunt Margaret) is such a store of knowledge...give her my love.

Looking forward to hearing from you soon.

Posted by: valros 23rd Jun 2007, 06:49pm

I have been on holiday for the past week and got a surprise when I saw the posts that had been added.

Maria-- the book you talk about, is it called "The Old Townhead's a Goner" ? if so, I do have that one and it has photos of the Carlton and Casino in Castle Street, sadly a tramcar is in front of the Grafton and you can't see the picture hall


If you are talking about a different book will you let me know please?

Valros

Posted by: valros 23rd Jun 2007, 07:13pm

This post is to both Lena and Maria---first I would like to say how pleased I am to see you have discovered you are related--just great!!!

When I was at St Roch's Primary one of my close friends at school was a girl called Kathleen Cassidy and she lived in Villiers Street, I was in her house several times. We all called her Lena and I am wondering if you ladies are related to her?

On the subject of Anderson's dairy, I never knew anyone else other than Alec and his wife as owners of it.

I lived in Rhymer Street and saw Karl Denver on very many occasions as he married Jean Boyle who lived two closes from me. I was friendly with her younger sister Anne, I can remember Grace but not as well as the other sisters.

I don't know if you have exchanged e-mail addresses yet but one way is to become a member of Glasgow Guide and then send each other a PM with your e-mail address on it!!!
Hope you both keep posting as I love to hear from people who came from the area

Valros smile.gif

Posted by: Lena 24th Jun 2007, 06:22am

Hi Maria, both mum and I are looking forward to catching up after such a long time. I have become a member of the Glasgow Guide as suggested by Valros. Hopefully we can exchange email addresses through this forum otherwise we could set up a hotmail to do the exchange.

I apparently got it wrong about Karl Denver as it was his son's funeral he returned to attend and not his wife's. Apparently the child was killed in a traffic accident, I think it was on the Royston Rd but not sure.

Valros, Kathleen Cassidy was our aunt Lena. I am named after her. Lena died when she was only 21. My mum was happy to hear you remembered Lena as we often talk about her and her other siblings.

We have a big connection with the Garngad through our grandparents and their siblings and I am lucky that my mother has such a good memory and tells great stories of the Garngad and the characters that lived there. I should write it all down next time we get chatting. I read out some of the stuff on this site and other sites I have found and between her and my dad I find out lots of history. They both went to the Rock school (primary and secondary) and remember many of the teachers. I myself went to the Mungo primary, then the Mena and then Charlotte St as did my older sister (my Irish twin).

Valros, can you please explain how we exchange our emails through this site ie what is a PM?

Be back to visit soon.

Posted by: Maria M6 24th Jun 2007, 04:53pm

smile.gif smile.gif Hello Lena, I also have become a member of the Glasgow Guide...I am looking forward to exchanging e-mail addresses...The page that I am on in the right hand corner (top) (0 New PMs).
Do I klick this & send my e-mail address? (Valros)...is it secure?...awaiting your reply...

Posted by: Maria M6 24th Jun 2007, 05:04pm

Post #98 Valros...In reply to your question "The Old Townheads a Gonner"
I don't really know if that is what the book is called...you see the book that I was relating too is in my attic...I shall make a point in going up & having a look for it during this week & let you know ASAP...And yes I to can confirm that Kathleen Cassidy is indeed our late aunt...I just so love this site...I am so lucky to have found it...

Posted by: valros 24th Jun 2007, 11:45pm

Maria,

If you want to send a PM (private message) to Lena, click on Lena's name and you will see "send a message".
No one else will see your PM.

I don't want you to go to a lot of bother about the book title, if it's easy to find then that's okay and thank you.

As I said before, I am just so pleased that you ladies have found each other . You must keep in touch though!!

When you do start sending PMs don't forget and post on here too please smile.gif

Valros

Posted by: valros 25th Jun 2007, 12:10am

Lena,

You will see that I have suggested to Maria how to contact by PM (private message) Once you have received a message you can continue to reply from that one.

If you mention any names from the Garngad or have a question about anyone just ask and I will certainly try and find out if I don't know myself. If there is anything you want to ask privately then PM me.

My parents lived all of their married life there.
There is another member who comes from Garngad and had lived in Villiers Street as a child, she lives in USA and should be on here too in the near future.

I was told many years ago that Lena had died but I didn't mention it on my post to you in case the information was wrong.
I was so very sorry to hear that, Lena was a nice pal to have at school and when the time came for us to go to secondary school, that's what split us all up.

I have a class photo taken in approx. 1948 and Lena and myself are in it, I tidied it up with a photo programme and added all the pupils names on it--I did remember every one --that's pretty good going--eh? biggrin.gif

Will look in tomorrow

Valros

Posted by: Lena 25th Jun 2007, 11:06am

Hi Valros and Maria

Thank you Valros for all your help I have managed to send Maria my email contact by following your instructions.

I am amazed that you have a school photo from 1948 with our aunt Lena in it. I would love to have a copy if you would be willing to send it on to me. If you are agreeable I will PM you my email address. I know that my mum would love to see it too.

Maria, I hope you received my PM and that we can start communicating soon. Love to catch up as we have missed hearing about you girls. Thirty eight years of catching up.

I promise to keep coming into the message board Valros as I enjoy reading the information on the Garngad and may be able to add a few wee stories in the future...as remembered by my mother of course.

I remember Earlston Avenue and going to Andersons Dairy to get milk and bread for my mum. Alec knew my sister and I pretty well. Somehow we alway used to lose the money on the way we lived at #43 so we were only a couple of closes away, luckily we always managed to find it as it usually blew into the back of one of the closes. I remember going around to Silvio's ice cream shop for a Jubilee and to the swing park on the Royston Rd, also the swing park at Rhymer St.

I went into John McLaughlin's page and think that I found a photo of my aunt May Cassidy. I have forwarded the name of the site onto her son. My mother recognised a couple of faces in the photo's too.

Catch up with you again soon cool.gif

Posted by: valros 25th Jun 2007, 06:02pm

Hi Lena,

Thanks for your reply. You are more than welcome for any help I can give.

I thought that your Mum may be interested in a photo with Lena in it, that's why I mentioned it. I would be only too happy to let you have a copy of it, maybe Maria would like a copy too?
Just click on my name as before and send me your e-mail address so I can attach the photo for you. Perhaps your Mum may recognise other faces from it as another couple of the girls lived in Villiers Street then--Agnes Daly, Helen McShane who was also known as Rice, think she lived with an aunt. I have all the names at the bottom of the photo.
You can always print out a copy of the photo too if you have a printer, you will probably know all this yourself though Lena. I use glossy A4 size paper for photos.

I remember Silvio's okay-many a "pokey hat" I had out of there biggrin.gif

When you went into Anderson's dairy Lena, did you know one of the workers called Betty Wright? she lived at 134 Earlston Avenue, had a son and daughter who both went to St Mungo's primary.
She worked in the shop for years.

I lived in the building facing the swing park in Rhymer Street, our windows looked into the boys end of the school.

I just loved John McLaughlin's site in fact I have printed all the stuff out, so sad that he died shortly before I had discovered the site. I recalled all the names he mentioned, mainly through my parents speaking about them. Will have to have a look at the site again because I may well know some of your relatives, are they still living up there?

St Roch's Church and school are in their centenary year just now and I believe there will be some celebrations in August.

Believe this or not but over the years I have often thought of Lena and the other pals I had at the primary school---they are such good memory's too.

Look forward to hearing from both you and Maria again

Valros

Posted by: Maria M6 26th Jun 2007, 10:16pm

Post#105 & 106
Hello Lena & valros

Don't know if you got my PM's I have written down my e-mail address...I know that Lean's PM that I sent has no tracking that I can follow...I must have done something wrong...I received your PM Lena...have sent you an e-mail off to your address that you gave me...hope that you receive it OK...Cheers to Valros for the kind guesture of a copy of my aunt Lena's school photo...I have sent a PM to you also with my details...I do hope that you receive it...

Thanks once again to both of you...

Maria xx

Posted by: valros 26th Jun 2007, 10:47pm

I have received all PMs from Lena and yourself Maria, have sent you both a copy of the photo

Best wishes

Valros wink.gif

Posted by: Eddie Johnston 4th Aug 2007, 07:31am

QUOTE (valros @ 16th Jun 2006, 08:23 PM) *
Tommy,

It's been Royston Road and Roystonhill since 1942 but people still said Garngad. I never knew it as Garngadhill or road but my parents did.

Valros


From memory, people simply refrerred to "The Hill" or "The Road".

Posted by: Guest Bill * 20th Aug 2007, 09:11am

Has St. Roch's had its centenary celebrations yet?

Posted by: Paul Kelly 8th Sep 2007, 08:34am

I understand St Roch's church and St Roch's primary school (the Wee Roch) are both celebrating their centenary this year, though not the secondary school (the Big Roch). I don't know anyone who stays in Garngad/Royston these days and I am not sure when exactly the celebrations are being held.

Posted by: valros 8th Sep 2007, 10:52am

I have a booklet that was specially printed for the Centenery year and according to that the celebrations were supposed to be held in August. I didn't hear anything about it though.
I have a friend who lives there and I will e-mail her and ask.

Valros

Posted by: Eddie Goodbrand 6th Oct 2007, 01:46pm

HI Paul,

My mothers name was Helen Kelly (born 1935) and Her Father was Edward and they came from the Garngad and ended up in Avonspark Street.

Either coincidence of there must be some connection.

My mother had a Brother Edward who died young, about 5 I think, and two sisters Annie and May who was the youngest.

My mother died in 1991 aged 56.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 9th Oct 2007, 07:59am

Hi Eddie.

What a strange coincidence! I spoke to my dad last night on the phone and he says there were other Kelly families staying in Avonspark Street but he did not know them that well. He says he did not know a Helen Kelly. My Kelly grandparents - James Kelly and Sarah Rutherford - married around 1925 and stayed first of all with my greatgrandfather - Hugh Kelly - at McNeil Street, Hutchesontown, Gorbals. Around 1928 they moved to their own place at Bright Street, Garngad and around 1933 they moved to Gadshill Street, Garngad where my dad was born in 1934. They moved to Avonspark Street, Balornock after the 2nd World War. My dad says he was evacuated to Kilmarnock for a short period during the 2nd World War. Avonspark Street is a long street. My grandparents stayed at the end of Avonspark Street next to Edgefauld Road (containing Barnhill/Foresthall) and the block they stayed in was directly opposite the opening to Dykemuir Street. My dad says this sole block was demolished in the 1990s.

My dad's family consisted of Betty (born 1926), May (1927), Hugh (1928/29), Bernie (1930/31), Jim (my dad 1934), Jack (1937), Jinty (1941)

You say your grandfather's name was Edward Kelly. Do you know the names of his parents? My greatgrandfather - Hugh Kelly - came to Glasgow from Donegal around 1886/87/88 and lodged with his older brother Willie Kelly and wife Mary McGlynn at Villiers Street, Garngad. He seems to have stayed with them until he married in 1890. I remember looking up Willie Kelly's family in the 1891 and 1901 censuses at the Mitchell Library the last time I was home in Glasgow and he had 6 children, 3 boys and 3 girls. I think the names of the boys were Charlie, Danny and Eddie. I would need to double check this and I will the next time I purchase units on the scotlandspeople.gov.uk website.

All the best,

Paul

Posted by: Guest Lena * 12th Oct 2007, 12:18pm

Response to post 113

Hi Eddie, my mother knew a Nellie Kelly who lived at the bottom of Villiers St. She said that Nellie had really dark black curly hair... could this be your mother? She had an older sister Kathy...possibly a brother called James...she is not sure as it is so long ago.
My mum was born in Villiers St... and my research shows that my father an mothers family resided in the area for some time.
My mother tells me that there were a lot of Kelly families...common name in the Garngard ...

Posted by: Eddie Goodbrand 24th Oct 2007, 09:01am

QUOTE (Guest Lena * @ 12th Oct 2007, 01:35 PM) *
Response to post 113

Hi Eddie, my mother knew a Nellie Kelly who lived at the bottom of Villiers St. She said that Nellie had really dark black curly hair... could this be your mother? She had an older sister Kathy...possibly a brother called James...she is not sure as it is so long ago.
My mum was born in Villiers St... and my research shows that my father an mothers family resided in the area for some time.
My mother tells me that there were a lot of Kelly families...common name in the Garngard ...


Hi Lena,

Not really sure where my Mum lived exactly, but she had a brother Edward who died when he was 5, and two sisters Annie and May.

My Grandad Eddie was in the Fire Service during the war years, and when I was small I remember him mentioning the Fire at a Whisky Bond called Brabbies or Brabby's, not sure of the spelling.

The only person remaining is my Auntie May who is now in her 60's and lives in Carmyle.

Posted by: valros 28th Oct 2007, 05:08pm

Eddie,

I have just seen your post. Braby's was a steel work my fatherworked in it. Trying to post a photo of it for you


Braby's 1910


Frederick Braby and Company moved to the Eclipse works in Petershill Road from Garngad Road, owing to Springburn's excellent location adjacent to sidings from four railway companies.

The company made galvanised iron and steel products including roofing and windows, hot-water cylinders, chimney cans, wine bins and even cattle troughs. Some Braby workers were involved in the construction of the Ferris wheel at Blackpool in the 1920s.

The man in the centre of the foreground is a foreman. The 'hard-hats', as they were called, were not popular among the working men, and it was said that the bowler hat was not only a symbol of the foreman's position but protected him from rivets and the like 'accidentally' dropped by workers from above.


 

Posted by: Catherine Kennedy 31st Oct 2007, 07:33am

Thank you Paul for some fantastic information. I'm just researching my family history and have found a list of addresses where my great grandparents lived from around 1892 through till about 1918. At some stage they came to Australia (around 1914), but when my g-gf was injured in WW1 my g-gmother did come back to Scotland. I had figured out that Garngad Rd had become Royston Rd, but couldn't figure out where the other streets they had lived were. I'm not sure if anyone could help me and I'm not even sure that the addresses are in Garngad, some of them are in Dennistoun, please forgive my ignorance, I've never been to Glasgow so have no idea of the geography and how far apart places are.
My great grantparents were married at St Mary's Chapel Calton, in 1892. Their address at the time was given as 89 King St,Glasgow. The next address I have is 6 Comely Park Place, Glasgow, I can't find this address anywhere. The next address I have is from my great aunt's death certificate. In 1906 they were living at 37 Cobden St, which was described by Paul so now I have a mental picture. In 1911, my great grandmother inherited money from her brother, so there is a lot of correspondence from the solicitors and her address changes 3 times in about 2 years. In April 1911 it was 7 Wesleyan St Gallowgate, then by August 1911, 20 Bright St Garngad and finally Dec 1912, 149 Garngad Rd. My great aunt Ellen Kennedy married William Croal at St Roch's 18th July 1913. It's been interesting to read all the information, and I'm sad in a way that I won't be able to visit and see where they lived, but I'll look up the link suggested and hopefully find some old photos.
Catherine

Posted by: Catherine Kennedy 31st Oct 2007, 10:43pm

Hello Everyone,
Just wanted to thank you all for the interesting information and you Paul for the old map site at NLS. I've looked on the site, found a 1912 map, and located all the streets where my great grandparents lived. I was so excited. Wesleyean St and Comley Park Place are both off Gallowgate Rd, on a modern map they aren't there, but the nearby Sword St is, so I still have an idea of the location. I have also looked at the Garngad addresses of Bright St, Cobden St and Garngad Rd. After reading the other postings the ghettos sounded awful. I have copies of letters that were written to my great grandmother from her brother, where he asks after her mental state. No wonder she was probably going crazy, shared outside toilets, whole families and lodgers sharing one room. She moved around alot, I'm not sure if this was common, who knows, she was probably evicted many times. Does anyone know where the closest burial ground was? My g-grandmother buried at least 2 children while living in the area. One died when she was living in Cobden St and the other when she was on Garngad Rd. Would it have been St Roch's?
kind regards
Catherine

Posted by: Paul Kelly 2nd Nov 2007, 11:10am

Thanks Catherine.

As I mentioned in post #20, Garngad's streets were sometimes described as being in the neighbouring district of Dennistoun on official documents, especially in the late 1800s. However, Garngad and Dennistoun were separate districts and had very little in common other than the fact that they were neighbouring areas. Garngad was a very poor area with a large Irish immigrant population whereas Dennistoun was probably the best off area in the east end of Glasgow and had very few Irish immigrants staying in it.

The following link shows an old image of Cobden Street, Garngad, a street of course which no longer exists.

http://www.mitchelllibrary.org/virtualmitchell/index.php?a=street&s=item&key=rYToxOntpOjA7czo5OiJDb2JkZW4gU3QiO30=&pg=2

In addition, if you zoom in on sheet VI.7.19 of the following link, you will find a street map of Garngad in 1894.

http://www.nls.uk/maps/townplans/glasgow_2.html

St Mary's, Abercromby Street, Calton, next to Bridgeton, is the 2nd oldest Catholic Parish in Glasgow (established 1842), and is where Celtic FC was founded in 1888. (see post #53 and post #70 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland')

I know of 2 Catholic cemetries in Glasgow:
St Kentigern's, Balmore Road, Lambhill
and St Peter's, London Road, Dalbeth

Posted by: Paul Kelly 2nd Nov 2007, 12:33pm

Catherine, I forgot to add the following link in my last post.

http://www.theglasgowstory.com/image.php?inum=TGSA05269

You can click on 'View Larger Image'.

I am not sure where in the Garngad this photograph was taken.

Paul

Posted by: valros 2nd Nov 2007, 01:07pm

Paul,

I would say that the photo was possibly taken from the old Charles Street which ran at the top of Cobden St, Bright St. Villiers St and Turner St.

Valros

Posted by: Catherine Kennedy 3rd Nov 2007, 09:04am

Thank you Paul for the links and information and valros for the photo orientation. Talk about pollution! I have book marked them as well as this site so I can keep checking in on any other interesting developments. As you can tell from my surname, I have Irish heritage, and until recently, thought I had a lot more Scottish blood in me than I seem to have. We always thought that my great-grandmother had a Scottish mother and father, but it seems that her father was from Ireland (probably originally from England with a name like Close) and came over during the famine. The only Scottish name we have on the tree so far is Morrison, her mothers name. Her husband, Joseph Kennedy came to Scotland from Limerick, not sure when, not sure why, probably in the late 1880's. Interestingly, on all the certificates I have seen his signature is really very elegant. He was a tobacco pipe maker, a trade that you wouldn't necessarily link with literacy. We always thought that his mother was Scottish, but no, it seems she was Irish as well. Once again, thankyou. I can now impress my extended family with my knowledge of Glasgow circa 1900!
Catherine

PS After I finished reading all the posts before I added my comment, the first thing I saw was a google ad for a holiday in the Blue Mountains, Aust. I had to laugh, it's where I live! On a Scottish site reading ads encouraging me to holiday in my own backyard.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 6th Nov 2007, 11:05am

Thanks again Catherine.

I am interested in the 3 surnames you have mentioned. Kennedy can be an Irish or a Scottish surname. However the Irish Kennedys and the Scottish Kennedies are in no way related. I discussed the Kennedy surname at length in post #22 of the topic 'Are The Scots Really Irish?'

While Morrison is generally considered to be a Scottish surname, it is sometimes a native Irish surname. The O'Muirgheasain family of west Derry and the Inishowen peninsula in north east Donegal adopted Bryson and Morrison as the Anglicised versions of the surname in the years following the 17th century Plantations of Ulster. (See post #189 and post #38 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland')

Finally, Close is quite a common surname in east Ulster, especially County Antrim. While some of the Closes in Ulster are descendants of 17th century English Protestant Planters from Yorkshire, it seems that the others are descended from the native Catholic Irish O'Cluasaigh family - meaning 'having big ears' - who adopted Close as the Anglicised version of the surname in the years following the Plantations. Catherine, does your family have big ears? biggrin.gif

http://www.irishgen.com/surnames/details.asp?surname_id=1143

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname

Paul

Posted by: Mahegradon 6th Nov 2007, 12:07pm

Just found out yesterday (Nov 5th), that St. Roch's Chapel had it's Centenery Celebrations
on Sunday November 4th.
St. Roch's Primary had an open day earlier this year.

Posted by: Catherine Kennedy 8th Nov 2007, 04:43am

Great.....Kennedy means "ugly head" or "rough-head" according to one of the links you suggested Paul, but I'm sure with your vast knowledge of Irish names you probably knew that already. I have also seen it described as "helmut-headed" presumably because we were so ugly that we had to cover our heads! So apart from being generally ugly I now have large ears....fantastic. The next names I discover in the family tree will probably mean fat arse or hairy cheeks or something like that. I was going to try and post a picture of Jane Close so you could judge for yourself, but my sister has the pictures scanned and I'm not organised enough. Since you are also suggesting that Morrison also has Irish origins in some cases, what about Murray? I've just been in touch with a 4th or 5th cousin on my paternal grandmother's side via genes reunited and she has been able to add the parents of my g-g-g-grandmother Charlotte Bayliss born Edinburgh, they were Samuel Bayliss and Elizabeth Murray. Surely Murray must be Scottish! I just want a tartan to wear with some sort of connection. Oh well, I'll keep trying.
Catherine

Posted by: Guest BigArturo * 8th Nov 2007, 03:03pm

I would suggest from the big chimney on the horizon, that this is the Cleansing Dept chimney on Charles Street where they incinerated the domestic waste. That would put the location the photo was taken from to around the top of the old Provanhill Street which I believe ran from the Road up to the church on Garngadhill. More or less where the top of Rhymer Street was.
I remember playing outside the Cleansing when I was a boy in the 1950's and that chimney belched out smoke over the area. It was eventually demolished when they built the Charles Street multi-storey flats in the early 60's which overlooked the Cleansing.

Posted by: BigArturo1 8th Nov 2007, 03:36pm

Paul,

From the chimney in the photo, I would suggest that is the incinerator chimney of the Charles Street Cleansing Dept which would put the location it was taken from to be around the top of the old Provanhill Street which ran from The Road up to the church on The Hill. Where the top of Rhymer Street was. I remember as a boy in the 1950's playing outside the Cleansing catching "hudgies" on the lorries and that chimney belched smoke over the whole area. It was eventually demolished in the 1960's as they were building the Charles Street multi-storey flats opposite.

Posted by: Catherine Kennedy 9th Nov 2007, 08:49am

I've just read one of your posts Paul about "Murray" not being Scottish in all cases, I'll have to see how far back I can go to validate the Scottishness of my Elizabeth Murray. I'll see how I go.
Catherine

Posted by: Paul Kelly 9th Nov 2007, 12:25pm

Thanks for that info BigArturo.

The Glasgow Corporation Cleansing Department is clearly indicated on the northern side of Charles Street on sheet VI.7.19 of the 1894 nls map. According to the map, the chimney is directly opposite the northern entrance to Villiers Street.

http://www.nls.uk/maps/townplans/glasgow_2.html

My grandfather was born in 1895 on the southern side of Charles Street between the northern entrances to Turner Street and Villiers Street. See introductory post of this topic. He must have grown up directly opposite that polluting chimney. He still managed to live until 1970.

Yes Catherine.

The Irish Gaelic for Kennedy is O'Cinneide meaning 'ugly-headed'.

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=History&Surname=Kennedy&UserID=

Although Murray is generally considered to be a Scottish surname and many of the Murrays in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters, some native Gaelic Irish families adopted Murray as the Anglicised version of their surnames in the years following the Plantations. See posts #203 and #38 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'. GG member 'stratson' is descended from one of the native Irish Murray families. See posts #2, #11 and #27 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'.

Paul

Posted by: Guest jean * 21st Nov 2007, 05:33pm

QUOTE (AndyR1 @ 3rd Jun 2006, 07:07 AM) *
Thanks Valros the name of the families are Reidford, Clark and Brown and as far as I can tell the Reidfords lived in 74 Earlston Avenue from the early 1930`s until the 1950`s but the families lived in the area before these dates. The Clark/Brown family had a grocery shop in the area but I dont know its name. Any help would be great as I`ve got family in Canada who are trying to find out more about Garngad.



My Dad lived at 73 Earlston Avenue, Andrew Duncanson with his mother and two sisters, Betty and Nancy.

Posted by: Guest eddie goodbrand * 1st Dec 2007, 07:58am

QUOTE (valros @ 28th Oct 2007, 05:15 PM) *
Eddie,

I have just seen your post. Braby's was a steel work my fatherworked in it. Trying to post a photo of it for you
Braby's 1910
Frederick Braby and Company moved to the Eclipse works in Petershill Road from Garngad Road, owing to Springburn's excellent location adjacent to sidings from four railway companies.

The company made galvanised iron and steel products including roofing and windows, hot-water cylinders, chimney cans, wine bins and even cattle troughs. Some Braby workers were involved in the construction of the Ferris wheel at Blackpool in the 1920s.

The man in the centre of the foreground is a foreman. The 'hard-hats', as they were called, were not popular among the working men, and it was said that the bowler hat was not only a symbol of the foreman's position but protected him from rivets and the like 'accidentally' dropped by workers from above.


Hi Valros,

Thanks for the info, and posting the photo.

I'm obviously confused about the Fire connection then but I do remember him talking about Braby's, and think he must have worked there at some point..

The Fire was obviously at another place cos' I definitely remember him talking about it, and it was definitely a distillery or whisky bond.

Cheers again for the info.

Eddie

Posted by: valros 2nd Dec 2007, 10:42pm

You're welcome Eddie, so long ago !!!

Here is a photo of Garngad Road and Turner Street, I remember the newsagents very well, Sarah Keenan was the woman's name who owned it----at the corner is one of the many pubs on Garngad Road rolleyes.gif

Valros



Posted by: valros 2nd Dec 2007, 10:51pm

Anyone who lived in the Garngad/Townhead area would remember this cinema. I preferred the Carlton across the road though!!
Used to go into Hilley's Cafe for my sweeties to eat while watching the picture wink.gif


Valros




Posted by: Garvan 2nd Dec 2007, 11:06pm

QUOTE (valros @ 2nd Dec 2007, 10:58 PM) *
Anyone who lived in the Garngad/Townhead area would remember this cinema. I preferred the Carlton across the road though!!
Used to go into Hilley's Cafe for my sweeties to eat while watching the picture wink.gif
Valros




Must have been demolished before I grew up

Posted by: valros 2nd Dec 2007, 11:09pm

Garvan

The Casino was demolished in 1973 and the Carlton across the road from it demolished in 1966

Valros

Posted by: Garvan 2nd Dec 2007, 11:28pm

For some reason, I cant remember them Valros

Posted by: valros 3rd Dec 2007, 10:53pm

Probably too young Garvan----wish I had that problem biggrin.gif

Valar

Posted by: Garvan 4th Dec 2007, 04:44am

QUOTE (valros @ 3rd Dec 2007, 11:00 PM) *
Probably too young Garvan----wish I had that problem biggrin.gif

Valar



spring chicken me smile.gif

Posted by: John leese 10th Dec 2007, 03:20pm

Hi folks, it's been a wee while since i've been on here, but i have enjoyed reading all the postings. My dad worked in the ''hibs hall'' for many a year and i frequented it myself. Before working in the hibs my dad worked in ''Dougans'' pub. I think most of you would have heard of or know about that. I have been told of many a story from these places and always have a laugh or two when hearing about the characters.

The wee roch school was the best, what a time wee had there albeit looking back. Saturday mornings as well, playing for the school football team up the cowp. 3 weeks later and your ankles were still black from the ash of the park.

Hope to be back soon

Take care folks

Posted by: hughmac 6th Jan 2008, 01:55pm

Does anyone know of any Parkers or McInallys in the Garngad or surrounding area? I'm trying to trace connections to my G.G. Grandparents Alexander & Minnie Gordon Parker who came from Stranraer and who lived at 63 Garngad Road around 1897. Alexander was a railwayman of sorts. Their daughter Agnes Parker married Hugh McInally from Govan (my G.grandparents) and he was a boilermaker's labourer, presumably working in the railway engineering works at St. Rollox, and then in the Govan shipyards. My grandfather, Hugh McInally,was also born there.
In 1900, they were at 27 Villiers Street, were their son Alexander was born. (died at 16 months).
By 1902 they were living at 106 Parliamentary Road, where daughter Minnie was born. They then seemed to have moved back to Govan, as their remaining children were born there.

Agnes had five brothers : Robert, Thomas, John Gordon, William Gordon and Alexander. There was also a younger sister, Mary. The Parkers probably lived in the area from around 1887, as the two younger children appear to have been born in Glasgow. Robert, Thomas and William may have emigrated; 1 to Canada, 1 to New Zealand and 1 to Luton, England. It's unlikely then that they have any descendants in Scotland, so I don't expect to find anyone in Garngad who new of them! John Gordon McInally has been traced to the Kinning Park area and some of his descendants are known.

I'm also trying to trace my McInally roots. My G.G. grandfather Henry McNally was from Ireland (Belfast?) born c.1832. In 1857 he married Janet Rogers in Paisley, where seven of their eleven children were born. The other six were born in Govan. All of the (surviving) boys worked in the Govan yards, but I'm uncertain as to why Hugh moved to and married in Garngad.

The first trace of my G.G. grandfather Henry was his marriage in Paisley. I don't know if he went there direct from Belfast on his own, or if his parents, John and Margaret McNally and possibly siblings, moved to Glasgow en masse. I have been unable to find any of his relatives and wonder if my G. grandfather Hugh lived with any when he moved to Garngad?

Are there any McNally or McInally families still living in the area, who think they could be connected? I'm hoping so.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 6th Jan 2008, 03:50pm

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 15th Dec 2006, 10:04 AM) *
Hi Joe.

Welcome to Glasgow Guide. I enjoyed reading your post. I remember seeing the McInally surname a couple of times in Robert McLaughlin's website. I think it was in the articles by Ronnie McDonald.

Paul.



QUOTE (J.McInally @ 16th Dec 2006, 01:55 AM) *
I saw them as well Paul, but alas they are not related to me, although I knew quite a lot of McInallys in the area. In the article by Ronnie McDonald, many of the people mentioned in it, were, and still are, friends of my Dads.

Thank you for your welcome.


Hi again Hugh.

I think there were a number of McInally families in the Garngad area. Like Kelly, McInally was a common surname in the Garngad. Maybe Joe McInally will be able to tell you something the next time he checks the GG website.

You said you greatgrandfather and grandfather - both called Hugh McInally - were staying at 27 Villiers Street in 1900. My greatgrandfather - Hugh Kelly - was staying at 27 Villiers Street at the time of his marriage in 1890. 27 Villiers Street was actually the home of his older brother Willie Kelly, with whom he lodged, after arriving in Glasgow from Donegal around 1887. Willie Kelly and his wife Mary Kelly (nee McGlynn) and children were still staying in Villiers Street in the 1891 and 1901 censuses. I remember checking this at the Mitchell Library the last last time I was home in Glasgow (December 2005), though if I am remembering correctly, I think they were staying at 25 or 29 Villiers Street in the 1901 census. Willie Kelly and Hugh McInally must have been neighbours in 1900. My greatgrandfather, Hugh Kelly, was staying in Turner Street in the 1891 census and in Charles Street in the 1901 census. My grandfather, James Kelly, was born in Charles Street in 1895.

Paul

Posted by: Wee Mary 14th Jan 2008, 07:35am

Hi Paul

I've been reading your posts with great interest. I think your William O'Brien is one of my ancestors. My William O'Brien was the son of Joseph O'Brien and Margaret Patterson, born in Lurgan, County Armagh in 1867. He was one of twelve children. The O'Briens migrated to Glasgow (Govan) about 1880 and there followed four generations of shipbuilders on the Clyde.

Joseph O'Brien is my great, great, grandfather which makes William my great uncle.

Can you confirm if we have the same William? If so, I can give you more O'Brien family tree information. Interestingly, our William O'Brien had a younger brother called John who migrated to South Africa after the Boer War and married there. He died in Mombasa.

Hello to everyone. I'm a new poster. I originally came from Cowcaddens in Glasgow and have lived in Australia since 1973.

Cheers
Mary

Posted by: RonD 14th Jan 2008, 02:53pm

Glad you found us Mary, welcome to the boards.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 14th Jan 2008, 03:26pm

Hi Mary and welcome to the Glasgow Guide.

It is the same William O'Brien!

My greatgrandmother Elizabeth McCormick/McCormack was born near Ballybofey/Killygordon in the parish of Donaghmore in County Donegal in 1863. In 1864 she moved as an infant with her parents to Scotland. Her younger sister Mary was born in Carnbroe (between Coatbridge and Bellshill) in the district of Bothwell, North Lanarkshire in 1864. Mary died as an infant. The McCormicks had another daughter called Mary who was born in Dalmarnock Road, Bridgeton, Glasgow in 1866. This Mary McCormack married William O'Brien on the 15th November 1889 at St Mungo's RC Church, Townhead, St Rollox district, Glasgow. I downloaded their marriage certificate some time ago from the scotlandspeople website. The certificate states that William's parents were Joseph O'Brien and Margaret Patterson. As you mentioned in your post, William had been born in Lurgan, County Armagh in 1867. Both William and Mary gave their address at the time of marriage as 32 Turner Street Garngad. This was the home of Mary's parents (my greatgreatgrandparents) John McCormick and Rose Ann McCormick (nee McArthur/McAteer/McIntyre/McEntyre). (My greatgreatgrandmother's maiden surname had many different forms though it was usually recorded as McArthur on Scottish documents!) It seems that William was staying with the McCormicks BEFORE he married Mary. I had no idea that his parents and siblings were staying in Govan. I had always thought that he had arrived in Glasgow from Ireland on his own, met up with Mary, and moved in with her parents. William's occupation is given as Shipbuilder's Labourer on the marriage certificate. Mary was a Cotton Power Loom Weaver. William put his signature on the marriage certificate. Mary just put a cross. She was obviously uneducated, even though she had been born and brought up in Scotland

In the 1891 census William and Mary were still staying at 32 Turner Street with Mary's parents. As far as I am aware, William and Mary had only 2 children, Joseph and Mary, born in 1890 and 1891 respectively. Joseph did not marry and died in 1932 in Charles Street, Garngad aged 42 years. Joseph actually stayed with his Uncle John McCormick (born Turner Street, Garngad, 1878), who also never married and who outlived Joseph. Mary O'Brien was born at 32 Turner Street on 28 November 1891. Mary married Sammy Glen at St Mungo's, Townhead in June 1912. Sammy Glen had been born and brought up in the Garngad - his parents were Patrick Glen and Margaret O'Neill - and he was staying in Cobden Street at the time of his marriage to Mary. I suspect that the family's surname of Glen/Glenn might have been a Scotticised version of the Irish surname McGlynn. I think Sammy Glenn and Mary O'Brien had 3 children - John, Ina and Betty - and they stayed in Bright Street, Garngad in the 1920s and early 1930s. According to my dad's older sister - who is also called Mary - Mary Glen (nee O'Brien) was close to my grandfather (James Kelly, born Charles Street, Garngad, 1895) and she was the godmother of several of my dad's older brothers and sisters. I don't know what happened to the Glens, though according to the International Genealogical Index Mary Glen (nee O'Brien) died in 1987 aged 96 years, somewhere in Glasgow. The death is recorded under the maiden name of Mary O'Brien, as was the custom. My grandfather - James Kelly - died in late 1970, aged 75 years.

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?Page=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true

My parents lived in Sydney, Australia from September 1968 up to November 1970. I was nearly an Australian. I was certainly conceived in Australia. It was my grandfather's ill-health that brought my dad back to Glasgow, though by the time my parents arrived back in the UK, my grandfather was dead. They sailed from Australia to the UK via the Panama Canal, though there was a fire on board the ship shortly after their journey started and they had to spend a couple of weeks in Fiji while the ship was being repaired. (They enjoyed their stay in Fiji.)

So my great aunt was married to your great uncle. They probably have greatgrandchildren and greatgreatgrandchildren staying in the Glasgow area today, though I don't know any of them.
It was great to hear from you.

Paul

Posted by: Paul Kelly 14th Jan 2008, 06:07pm

QUOTE (Wee Mary @ 14th Jan 2008, 09:42 AM) *
Joseph O'Brien is my great, great, grandfather which makes William my great uncle.



QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 14th Jan 2008, 05:33 PM) *
So my great aunt was married to your great uncle. They probably have greatgrandchildren and greatgreatgrandchildren staying in the Glasgow area today, though I don't know any of them.
It was great to hear from you.


Hi Mary.

I meant to say my great grandaunt, Mary McCormick, was married to your great granduncle, William O'Brien. This genealogy business gets very confusing at times. biggrin.gif

Paul

Posted by: Wee Mary 15th Jan 2008, 07:45am

Hi Paul

This is amazing! This elusive William has been hard to track and we've found him at last. A bit about the O'Briens.

Joseph O'Brien (father of William born 1867 in Lurgan) married Margaret Patterson by civil ceremony in Lurgan in 1852. It was one of the first civil ceremonies performed in Ireland as they were of different religions. Joseph was the son of (wait for it!) Joseph O'Brien and Mary Ditty. We have more Joseph O'Briens in this family tree than you could shake a stick at. The Ditty surname is common to Derry (or Londonderry); they were (and are) a family of bakers.

Joseph O'Brien and Mary Ditty's children - we have found three so far: Joseph born c.1831, brother William b.1834 and sister Mary b.1835. Joseph (1831) is the father of William b.1867.

Where old Joseph and Mary Ditty came from, we cannot ascertain at this point. What we do know is that William and Mary were baptised in Lurgan (parish of Shankill), but Joseph b.1831 we haven't found a birth record as yet; we think they came from elsewhere. Not many O'Briens in northern Ireland, then or now.

I found Joseph O'Brien and Margaret Patterson in the 1860s, living in the hamlet of Knockramer, and the hamlet of Beauconnel from Griffiths Valuation of Ireland (about 1864). These hamlets were on the outskirts of Lurgan and all of the land, including the town of Lurgan, belonged to Charles Brownlow, Lord Lurgan. The Brownlows inherited the land from a Brownlow who was given the land by Elizabeth I after the Flight of the Earls. The land originally belonged to the O'Neills. There's plenty of historical information on the Brownlows on the internet. The Brownlow rent rolls are held by the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland (PRONI), but there's no mention of our Joseph in it, his holding was too small. According to Griffiths Valuation he lived in a cottage which was valued at ONE POUND! On some of the birth records he is listed as a weaver - Lurgan and other parts of Northern Ireland were famous for their linen weaving in those days.

Charles Brownlow seems to have been a benevolent man and a fair landlord. He gave his catholic tenants a piece of land to build their church on. He died during the famines of famine fever, helping out at the poor house etc. His story is on the internet. Brownlow House (his mega mansion) is now the world headquarters of the Orange Lodge.

You've solved a riddle for us. We now know that Joseph O'Brien, his wife Margaret Patterson and their substantial brood of 12 children, migrated to Glasgow via BELFAST. I found them on the 1881 census for Scotland, living in Queen Street, Govan. They had a child born in Lurgan in 1874 (I think), so they must have gained employment in the ship building in Belfast (Harland and Woofe?) and then moved on to employment on the Clyde. Every generation thereafter all were ship builders on the Clyde, including my own father who worked in John Browns Ship Yard in Clydebank.

The O'Briens moved to Gordon Streeet, Whiteinch where they lived until Joseph died in 1896. All the details, dates of births, deaths etc are on my cousin Helen's website:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~pavlich/

Helen's very clever. She's got a whiz bang web site. I have a web site too for the O'Brien Clan world wide. I'm the host for Australia:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~obrienclanaus/

Mine's not as clever as Helen's, but it's been a bit of a labour of love!

Have a look and see what you can glean. I'll give Helen the latest data to add to the tree.

Cheers
Mary

Posted by: Paul Kelly 15th Jan 2008, 08:50pm

Hi Mary.

I can see that genealogy is a labour of love for both you and your cousin Helen, as it is for me. I enjoyed looking through your websites.

I am very interested in the origins of surnames - especially Irish and Scottish surnames - and the following paragraph in your last post caught my attention.

QUOTE (Wee Mary @ 15th Jan 2008, 09:52 AM) *
Joseph O'Brien (father of William born 1867 in Lurgan) married Margaret Patterson by civil ceremony in Lurgan in 1852. It was one of the first civil ceremonies performed in Ireland as they were of different religions. Joseph was the son of (wait for it!) Joseph O'Brien and Mary Ditty. We have more Joseph O'Briens in this family tree than you could shake a stick at. The Ditty surname is common to Derry (or Londonderry); they were (and are) a family of bakers.


Joseph O'Brien and Margaret Patterson raised their children - including William - as Catholics. This strongly suggests that Joseph and Margaret married in the Catholic Church, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to have their children baptised as Catholics. Of course, Margaret Patterson may very well have been a Protestant. Paterson is a common Scottish Planter surname in Ulster, where it is usually spelt Patterson.

I have never heard of the Ditty surname before. I have been looking through the International Genealogy Index to see where exactly in Ulster the surname was found. The surname was found in a very small geographical area to the immediate south and west of Lough Neagh. The surname was found in North Down (around Newtonards), North Armagh (around Portadown which is near Lurgan), east Tyrone (around Dungannon and Cookstown) and south east Derry (around Magherafelt). As you mentioned, the name was most numerous in the southeastern part of County Derry around Magherafelt. Unsurprisingly, the Ditty surname was also found in the city of Belfast. It is clear from the IGI that the Ditty family of Ulster is of Planter extraction. I don't know whether they are of Scottish or English extraction. I was reading on one website that the Dittys of Ulster could be of French Huguenot extraction. While the majority of the 17th century Protestant Planters in Ulster were Scots, there were also some English and a few French Huguenots among the Planters. So a French Huguenot connection is a possibility.

I came across the following Religious Census for Magherafelt Parish, County Derry in the year 1766. By Protestant I think they mean the Church of Ireland (Anglican), and by Dissenter I think they mean Presbyterian.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~mdbnotes/library/ir-1766.htm

All 8 Ditty households in Magherafelt, County Derry in 1766 were Prebyterian which suggests the Dittys of Ulster are of Scottish extraction. I am not sure whether the few French Huguenots who settled in Ulster followed the Church of Ireland or Presbyterianism - probably both - so there is still the possibility that the Dittys are of French Huguenot extraction.

Mary, most websites state that mixed marriages (Protestant Catholic intermarriages) have never been common in Ulster. The 2 communities are said to have remained largely polarized over the past 4 centuries. However, mixed marriages seem to have occured more than once in your Ulster family history (in County Armagh) in the 19th century. I have come across an instance of it in my own Ulster family history in County Donegal in the 19th century.

O'Brien is a very common Irish surname and it is especially common in the southern counties of Ireland. According to the 1857 Griifith's Valuation, the O'Brien surname was quite common in ALL the counties of Ulster.

Paul

Posted by: Wee Mary 19th Jan 2008, 04:19pm

Hi Paul

Thanks for a great post.

Ireland is so challenging for ancestor hunters. The General Record Office (Dublin) web site states that there is a digitisation program afoot that will place all the births, deaths and marriages on-line. Our difficulty is that many of the early records are still held by the parish, particularly so with the RC records. As you say, Joseph O'Brien and Margaret Patterson may well have gone through a religious ceremony, but I have the record for their civil marriage ceremony and we've always presumed it was because MP was non-catholic. Patterson yes, a very Scots name and likely of planter origin. Her father's name was given as Thomas Patterson and she was born circa 1834.

From what I can gather, after the rebellion of 1798, catholics were forbidden to practice their religion. They did so of course in secret. The restrictions were lifted in 1822 but this meant that many marriages and baptisms were done at home by the local priest and were not recorded in the church registers. The catholic records for Shankill are held by the parish priest, although PRONI have them on microfilm and will only sell the film if the consent of the parish is given in writing. I'll get around to writing to the parish one of these days.

The early records for Lurgan and district were in the district (or diocese?) of Seagoe. The later records are in the parish of Shankill.

Another interesting fact I found on microfilm through the LDS genealogy centre locally, was in the Poor Union (work house) records for Lurgan during the famines. The register stated that Joseph O'Brien (b.1831) and his brother William (b.1834) were brought in to the Union hospital with famine fever, "brought on a hand cart by their father Joseph O'Brien". They both recovered fortunately, but the records show that deaths during the famine were numerous in Lurgan (and Armagh generally), including Lord Lurgan who succumbed to typhus. I was really delighted when I found these references to Joseph and William (and their father), having gone bleary eyed winding the very long microfilm for hours. When I ordered the film it was a long shot, but one that paid off and added a bit more to our knowledge.

Yes, genealogy can be challenging, and exceptionally so in my case as my parents were both O'Briens! My father is descended from Joseph and Mary Ditty, and my mother's family came from Sligo. We have a lot of Patricks, Johns, Josephs, Marys and Noras.

I'll follow up the Hugenot clue on the Fianna web site. My husband's family were Irish Hugenots and I found their name on the list of Hugenot refugees who fled to Ireland during the reign of Louis IV in the 1640s. I've always had an interest in the Hugenots as I studied them back in time (I've a history degree) and I suppose they felt they'd be welcomed in Ireland where protestant Britain ruled and the native catholic population had been dispossessed and disempowered. The Hugenot history is certainly an interesting one.

Many thanks for your input! All information is gratefully received.

Cheers
Mary

Posted by: Paul Kelly 20th Jan 2008, 09:42am

QUOTE (Wee Mary @ 19th Jan 2008, 06:26 PM) *
As you say, Joseph O'Brien and Margaret Patterson may well have gone through a religious ceremony, but I have the record for their civil marriage ceremony and we've always presumed it was because MP was non-catholic. Patterson yes, a very Scots name and likely of planter origin. Her father's name was given as Thomas Patterson and she was born circa 1834.


Thanks Mary.

It is known that a few native Irish families adopted Planter surnames as the Anglicised versions of their Irish Gaelic surnames in the years following the Plantations when they thought it would have been to their advantage.

Paterson is a common Lowland Scots surname meaning 'Patrick's son' and it was also used as the Anglicised version of the Highland Scots surname Mac (Gille) Phadraig meaning 'the son of (the follower of St) Patrick'. As I mentioned in my last post, most of the Pattersons in Ulster are undoubtedly descendants of 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters. However, in the Province of Connacht in the west of Ireland, Patterson was sometimes adopted as the Anglicised version of the native Irish O'Casain surname.

Mac Phaidin is a Gaelic surname which arose separately in both Ireland (Ulster-Donegal) and Scotland (Argyll-Kintyre). Paidin is a diminutive of Padraig (Patrick). In Ireland the MacPhaidin surname was Anglicised as McFadden, in Scotland as McFadyen. Moreover, some Scottish McFadyens are said to have settled in Ulster as Gallowglasses in the 14th century and as Planters in the 17th century, where they adopted the Irish spelling McFadden. (See post #145 of the topic 'Common Irish surnames In Scotland' and posts #35 and #81 of the topic 'Are The Scots Really Irish?')

There is evidence that a few of the McFaddens in Ulster further Anglicised their surnames to Patterson in the years following the Plantations. While some of these McFaddens would have been of Planter extraction, the others would have been of native Irish or Galloglass extraction.

The Patterson surname also seems to have been adopted by a few of the 17th century Scottish Protestant McFetridge - meaning 'son of Peter' - Planters from Galloway.

Finally, Mac Giolla Phadraig - meaning 'son of the follower of St Patrick' - was a native Irish surname which was usually Anglicised as Fitzpatrick. (See post #80 of the topic 'Are The Scots Really Irish?' and post #195 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'.)

http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/surname


Paul

Posted by: JANEDUNCANSON 27th Jan 2008, 02:25am

dear paul ,

i may be able to put you in touch with arelative that knew a jessie connolly form stamford street who lived there during the 1950s.our own family lived in garngad and hailed originally form ireland and ayrshire. however, fate conspired to rehousee us in stamford street and my cousin jane became a close friend os a connolly family. i remember them vagely as a wee girlin the 50s

let me know if this is your own connection.

jane

Posted by: Paul Kelly 30th Jan 2008, 12:22pm

Hi Jane.

Jessie Taylor (nee Connolly) is my aunt and my mum's younger sister. She currently lives in Ayrshire with her husband Gerry.

As I mentioned in my introductory post to this topic, the Connollys moved from Dinwiddie Street, Germiston to Stramford Street, Barrowfield around 1946. The Connollys were certainly staying in Stamford Street in the 1950s. In the early 1960s my Connolly grandparents moved from Stamford Street to Carntyne Road, Carntyne.

There were 11 children in the family and my mum (Ann), Jessie (Jean) and Alec (Alexander) were the 3 youngest. My mum was born in 1937 and I think Jessie and Alec were born in the early 1940s.

Paul

Posted by: Guest davie * 5th Apr 2008, 03:04pm

Hi Paul, the OP


Like your ancestor Sarah McKenzie, my grandparents & great-grandparents came from Taylor Street and stayed there for over 50 years so they must have known each other in passing at least.

definitely a small world

Posted by: mariemc 19th Apr 2008, 01:10pm

Hi there, were there any McCaig's or Timmony's living in Garngad at any point? Thanks!

Posted by: Lena 27th Apr 2008, 04:00am

QUOTE (mariemc @ 19th Apr 2008, 01:17 PM) *
Hi there, were there any McCaig's or Timmony's living in Garngad at any point? Thanks!



Hi Marie, I found the following on the 1913-14 valuation roll for the Garngad.

The surname is spelt slightly different but that is not unusual.

Patrick Timoney, 36 Villiers St, labourer.
Patrick Timoney, 18 Villiers St, labourer.
Thomas Timoney, 52 Bright St, labourer.

You can find the Valuation Roll on the link http://theglasgowstory.com/index.php.

Who knows, there may be a link, worth a look.

Cheers
Lena

Posted by: wellfield 10th Jun 2008, 03:06am

Did you know that Stevie Chalmers(Celtic)was from Garngad before his family moved to Lamont Rd in Balornock when he was a lad.

Posted by: Isobel 10th Jun 2008, 12:45pm

My Grandparents lived in the Garngad in the late 30's and early 40's they then moved to Glebe St then on to Black St. Townhead. They were Isaballa and William Green.Better known as Bell and WillieGreen Does anyone remember them.They had ten kids my mother Margret(Meg) being one of the younger ones.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 10th Jun 2008, 06:46pm

QUOTE (Lena @ 27th Apr 2008, 06:07 AM) *
http://theglasgowstory.com/index.php


Hi Lena.

That is a great link. I had never seen the 1913-14 Valuation Rolls before.


QUOTE (wellfield @ 10th Jun 2008, 05:13 AM) *
Did you know that Stevie Chalmers(Celtic)was from Garngad before his family moved to Lamont Rd in Balornock when he was a lad.


Stevie Chalmers was in the same year at St Roch's Primary School as my dad's younger brother John (Jack) Kelly. In fact, my Uncle Jack was in the same class as the former Celtic player John Kelly (no relation). They were known as John Kelly A and John Kelly B.

My dad, Jim Kelly (born 1934), attended St Roch's Primary. My Uncle Jack (born 1937) attended St Roch's Primary up to the age of about 8/9, after which he attended St Bede's Primary School in Balornock after the family was relocated from Garngad to Avonspark Street, Balornock around 1945/46. It seems that quite a number of Garngad families were relocated to Balornock after the 2nd World War.

It is just as well that my Uncle Jack went to school with Steve Chalmers as he was Celtic daft. My Uncle Jack - who died in the mid 1980s - followed Celtic everywhere, home, away and in Europe. He never missed a match. He was in Lisbon when Stevie Chalmers scored the winning goal for Celtic against Inter Milan in the 1967 European Cup Final.

He always used to talk about the 1967 European Cup semi-final 2nd leg in Czechoslovakia between Dukla Prague and Celtic which he attended. He claimed he spent the night after the match drinking with Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor in a Prague hotel bar. What Richard Burton and Liz Taylor were doing in Prague in April 1967 I have no idea. My Uncle Jack would certainly have made a good drinking partner for Richard Burton.

Posted by: Lena 12th Jun 2008, 02:39am

Thanks Paul.

It is interesting the stuff you come across and what you find out when you are doing your family tree.

I managed to locate a number of my family on the roll though there was no listing for Middleton Place in that year. Perhaps it had been demolished by that stage.

Lena

Posted by: martinemcdougall 12th Jun 2008, 10:07pm

QUOTE (big tommy @ 28th Jul 2006, 08:34 PM) *
Hello guys aand Gals

My late wife was a KELLY' and by a strange coincidence her mother was a ' MC CORMACK'
They wete fron Bishiopbriggs ,

.I was baptized in St Rochs School in 1931 .My mum lived in Parliamentary Road ,where i was born in my Grannies house.

MyGranda lived in Rhymer Stret as did many aunts and a few cousins .
My auntie was married to willy Lilly .Although, I speny all of my early

Anothe Aunt was my auntie Nelly . who married Eddie Fitzpatrick
I was born in Parlianmentary Road in my Grannie'house.in 1929.
I was baptizes in St Rochs in 1931 ( another story to be found) on this great site
Most of my early life was in Cowcaddens Cowcadens before movining up here to Bishopbriggs (among the toffs )Best of luck yours Tommy

Posted by: mad for trad 14th Jul 2008, 08:08pm

hi have enjoyed reading wee articles you have written my dad james mcneill was brought up in garngadhill by his grandparents wee lizzie mcneill and his grandfather james im sure he would be much older than you but i remember visiting relatives my cousins all lived earlston avenue i remember the gangs in the sixties the shamrock and the tongs were always battling most of my relatives have gone now but thank you for the memories mad for trad smile.gif

Posted by: Paul Kelly 8th Sep 2008, 06:48pm

QUOTE (JANEDUNCANSON @ 27th Jan 2008, 05:29am) *
dear paul ,

i may be able to put you in touch with arelative that knew a jessie connolly form stamford street who lived there during the 1950s.our own family lived in garngad and hailed originally form ireland and ayrshire. however, fate conspired to rehousee us in stamford street and my cousin jane became a close friend os a connolly family. i remember them vagely as a wee girlin the 50s

let me know if this is your own connection.

jane



QUOTE (pr77 @ 29th Aug 2008, 10:49pm) *
Hi Paul,

My name is Patricia Rodgers and I have read your postings with growing interest as our families seem to be similar in many ways. My grandmother' name was Jane Houston and she married Samual Rodgers in the early 1900's. They lived in the Garngad Hill and they had four sons and six daughters and their names are: Jean; Rose(y); Samuel; Robert; Hugh(ie) - my father; Susan aka Sissy; Margaret; Betty; Cathie and John (who were twins). After the war they moved to Barrowfield (Stamford Street), where I lived from age 6 to 13. We had a Kelly family next close to us. Their mother had passed away and I think their father's name was James. There was Jean, Katie, Paddy and Johnny. This was in the early 70's. I wonder if you could enlighten me with any further information, especially as to the origin of the surname Rodgers.


Hi again Patricia.

As I mentioned to you in post #259 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland', my mum's younger sister Jessie Connolly (born c1940) was a close friend of Jane Rodgers and they were in the same class at St Anne's Primary School, Bridgeton next to the Gallowgate in the late 1940s and early 1950s.

I am just after GOOGLING Garngad to see if there is any new info on the web. I noticed the following from Jane Duncanson. You and JaneD must be related.

http://boards.ancestry.com/topics.cemetery.uk.ireland.ireland/260/mb.ashx

And here is the info about the Rodgers surname again.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6320&view=findpost&p=160394



While GOOGLING Garngad I also came across the following poem. It was written by Jim Scott who had come from Donegal to Garngad in the 1920s. After retiring, he settled in Drogheda, County Louth where he wrote the poem. The poem was discovered by Eddie McCafferty, a native of Donegal who stayed in Royston (Garngad), in the Irish Weekly (Belfast edition).

http://www.gihg.org/articles/6/1/Old-Garngad/Page1.html

Posted by: Paul Kelly 8th Sep 2008, 08:12pm

QUOTE (davidrpowell @ 11th May 2006, 08:25pm) *
Hi Paul,
My name is David Powell. I am a teacher at Saint Roch's Secondary School in the Gargad - been teaching there since 1972. My mother - Margaret Rodgers - was born in Middleton Place and later lived on Garngadhill. She is 85 and going strong although she has Alzeimer's. She spoke very fondly of the Garngad, especially the Hill, which she described as 'sylvan' even though it was amidst the smoke and smell from all the surrounding factories.
I am putting together A History Wall in the school at present and part of the display will be on the Garngad. I have some cracking photos but could do with a lot more.
The History Wall opening ceremony is on Friday evening, 23rd June 2006 if you are interested.
Regards,
David


Hi yet again Patricia.

I was wondering if you had noticed post #5 about Margaret Rodgers from Middleton Place. Another possible relative of yours? You mentioned that your father Hugh Rodgers had a sister Margaret. Jane Duncanson mentioned that your grandfather Samuel Rodgers had lived in Middleton Place and you mentioned that Samuel had lived in Garngadhill. David Powell said his mother had lived in Middleton Place and then Garngadhill. Middleton Place and Garngadhill were of course adjacent streets in Garngad.
The street called 'Garngadhill' still exists. Middleton Place, of course, disappeared decades ago.

Posted by: pr77 8th Sep 2008, 09:43pm

Hi Paul,

Thank you yet again. You are absolutely spot on as David Powell is my cousin and Jane Duncanson (nee Robertson) is also my cousin, she is the eldest daughter of my aunty Betty. I have never met David Powell, it happens in big families, but I remember Jane well.

I moved to London in 1973 and they, as far as I know, still live in Glasgow.

I appreciate the effort you have made on my behalf.

Patricia

Posted by: mad for trad 9th Sep 2008, 12:51pm

hi paul love youre articles my great granparents lived in garngadhill all their married life my gran was irish my grandad of irish descent I thougherly agree not enough written about the garngad Im sure there has been loads of interesting characters who lived there.

Posted by: biglad 28th Sep 2008, 04:26pm

Hi Paul,

I've got kinfolk that lived at 181 GarngadHill in the 1860s by the name of McKenna. Charles & Hannah (nee Cooney) were from Ireland but I don't know if they married there or in Glasgow, tho on each of the 5 birth records their marriage is listed as April 2nd or 5th in Glasgow but nothing is found on ScotlandsPeople. The 5 children were James, Charles, Sarah, Francis and William. Charles was the only one to live long enough to marry; the registrar for all 5 births was Peter Ferguson. Oddly enough, my bio-dad, aso named Charles McKenna was born at 27 Rosemount St., Garngadhill district, Glasgow in 1920; he died in 1984.

I've been trying to find the particular county in Ireland that Charles & Hannah were from so that I could continue adding to the tree.

Posted by: RonD 30th Sep 2008, 08:15am

What year did they get married and what years were the children born? If they were married before 1855 then it won't be listed in the civil registration as as registration didn't start in Scotland until 1855. I also looked at the census for this family and in 1871 they had a son listed on ancestry.com named "Lauge" any idea what this name is really? I have found more than one listings of names that transcribed improperly on this site. Wait I had another look through Familysearch.org and this can only be Francis born May 04 1869.

Posted by: Lena 2nd Oct 2008, 10:13am

Hi BigLad

Usually details of the childs parents marriage is listed on the birth certificate. Scottish birth certificates give more information than any other. Have you managed to get any copies of the birth certificates? I see on Scotland's People that there is only 1 Francis McKenna listed, born 1869...most likely yours. I done the search using his name, Lanark and all districts. May help by giving you additional information if you have not already got them.

I have my Grandfathers birth certificate which shows his parents married in Ireland, gives date and year of marriage and the townland or district. If you obtain more information you can go to Rootschat UK and possibly get additional help from the folks who use that site. I have found it pretty helpful.

Cheers
Lena

Posted by: Paul Kelly 25th Nov 2008, 05:12am

In post #158 I mentioned my Uncle Jack, my dad's younger brother. A former school friend of my late Uncle Jack noticed the post and has sent me an old photograph from St Bede's Primary School, Red Road, Balornock. The photo must have been taken in the late 1940s.

My Uncle Jack is on the back row far right next to the headmaster Mr Sugrue. The man who sent me the photograph - James Sullivan - is on the back row far left next to the teacher Mr Devlin. The Sullivans were neighbours of the Kellys in Avonspark Street, Balornock at the Edgefauld Road end next to Barnhill/Foresthall.


 

Posted by: Paul Kelly 20th Dec 2008, 09:51am

I think I have mentioned this before but it is probably worth repeating as I am still asked about it from time to time.

In the mid 1800s the streets of Garngad were described as being in the district of Springburn on birth, marriage and death certificates. Springburn was a district to the north of Garngad.

In the late 1800s, the streets of Garngad were described as being in the district of Dennistoun on birth, marriage and death certificates. Dennistoun was a district to the south east of Garngad and had very little in common with Garngad. Dennistoun was probably the poshest area in the east end of Glasgow in the late 1800s and had very few Irish immigrants staying in it unlike Garngad.

In the census forms of the mid/late 1800s, the streets of Garngad were described as being in Springburn or St Rollox or Townhead. Townhead was a district to the south west of Garngad.

It wasn't until the early 1900s that the streets of Garngad - Turner Street, Villiers Street, Bright Street, Cobden Street, Charles Street, Garngad Road, Middleton Place, Gourlay Place, Garngadhill, Tharsis Street, Rosemount Street, Millburn Street, Dunolly Street (and the newly created streets of Gadshill Street, Glenbarr Street, Rhymer Street, Provanhill Street and Earlston Avenue) - became recognised as being in the distinct Glasgow district of Garngad or Garngadhill on official documents. The problem had been that Garngad was a very small area geographically, though by the early 1900s (even after the creation of several new streets) it probably had as high a population density as any other part of the city and it also had a disproportionately high number of Irish immigrant families.

In the late 1800s and early 1900s up to 1918, Garngad was part of the Glasgow St Rollox parliamentary constituency. In 1918 Garngad became part of the Glasgow Springburn parliamentary constituency.

As I have mentioned before, in the late 1800s and early 1900s, St Rollox referred to northern Townhead (Castle Street, Parliamentary Road, Tennant Street, Kennedy Street, Hartfield Street, Stirling Road, Monkland Street, Barony Street, Glebe Street, Parson Street, Martyr Street, St Mungo Street, Taylor Street, Stanhope Street, McAslin Street (including the former Albert Street), Ronald Street, Weaver Street and St James Road), eastern Cowcaddens (Port Dundas), Sighthill (Fountainwell Road area) and Garngad.

Posted by: Guest lena * 25th Dec 2008, 03:39am

Hi Paul, just read your narrative and think you should collate the information you have and put it together in book form. I am sure there are plenty of folks when researching their kin who lived or settled in the Garngad area would find all the information you have gathered extremely helpful.

I find the information you put on very interesting and often read it out to my mother who remembers many of the names of people mentioned here. My mother came from Villiers St and like your dad she has lots of stories to tell of her life and that of her family and friends from that area.

I myself grew up in the Garngad, Earlston Avenue, before moving to provanmill in the early 60's. We left Scotland in '69 for Australia.


Posted by: Paul Kelly 27th Dec 2008, 10:06am

In my last post I mentioned that in the late 1800s and early 1900s the northern part of Townhead was in the Glasgow district of St Rollox. I have been looking a bit further into this. I have discovered that the old Townhead street of Rottenrow was the dividing line. Those Townhead streets to the north of Rottenrow were classed as being in the Glasgow district of St Rollox. Those Townhead streets to the south of Rottenrow were classed as being in the Glasgow district of Blackfriars. The district of Blackfriars actually stretched all the way from Rottenrow down to the River Clyde and was made up of the streets in and around High Street and Glasgow Cross including the once notorious District 14 (the area between the Trongate and the River Clyde which included Saltmarket, Bridgegate - Briggait - and Paddy's Market. See posts #29, #37 and #53 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland' for a discussion of District Fourteen). I think this Blackfriars/St Rollox division within Townhead lasted between 1885 and 1918. In 1918, Glasgow's parliamentary and ward boundaries were dramatically altered.

I am interested in the Townhead area as my grandmother Sarah Lawson McKenzie - whom I briefly mentioned in the opening post of this topic - was born in Tarbett Street, Townhead in 1896 and was brought up in Taylor Street, Townhead. Tarbet Street was to the immediate south of Rottenrow and was in Blackfriars district. Taylor Street was to the immediate north of Rottenrow and was in St Rollox district. Today, Tarbett Street and Taylor Street form part of the University of Strathclyde campus. Taylor Street still exists. However, Tarbet Street no longer exists and, looking at an old Glasgow street map, it seems that Richmond Street has been extended eastwards along what was once Tarbet Street. The part of today's Richmond Street which is to the east of North Portland Street corresponds roughly to what was once Tarbett Street.

Posted by: Paul Kelly 27th Dec 2008, 11:56pm

QUOTE (Lena @ 12th Jun 2008, 04:38am) *
Thanks Paul.

It is interesting the stuff you come across and what you find out when you are doing your family tree.

I managed to locate a number of my family on the roll though there was no listing for Middleton Place in that year. Perhaps it had been demolished by that stage.

Lena

Hi Lena.

I have been thinking about what you said about Middleton Place not appearing in the 1913-1914 Glasgow Valuation Rolls. In fact, I noticed that Middleton Place and Gourlay Place both didn't appear in the 1913/14 Valuation Rolls.

As I mentioned in post #1 and post #170, many new tenements were quickly built in southern Garngad in the early 1900s: Tharsis Street was lengthened considerably and several new streets such as Gadshill Street, Rhymer Street and Provanhill Street were created. Having looked closely at the few maps I have of the area, I think Middleton Place and Gourlay Place must have been largely or completely demolished to make way for the new Provanhill Street in the early 1900s.

http://theglasgowstory.com/valsearch.php

Posted by: Paul Kelly 12th Jan 2009, 10:33am

Garngad Square (now called Royston Square) was built in the extreme north west of Garngad in 1918 and was the first example of council houses in the city of Glasgow. James Maxton stayed in the Square from 1919 until he became the MP for the Glasgow Bridgeton parliamentary constituency (Bridgeton/Calton area) in 1922. As I mentioned in post #170, Garngad was part of the Glasgow St Rollox parliamentary constituency prior to 1918. In 1918, it became part of the Glasgow Springburn parliamentary constituency.

Jimmy Maxton never forgot his time in the Garngad, particularly the old tenemental slum streets to the east of Garngad Square and the incredibly high levels of tuberculosis and other respiratory diseases in the area. In a speech to the British Parliament in the 1920s, Maxton famously described the old slum streets of Garngad - Turner St, Villiers St, Bright St, Cobden St, Charles St, Garngad Rd - as being among the worst slums in Europe.

Maxton was described by former British Prime Minister Winston Churchill (a political adversary) as the greatest parliamentarian of his day. The current British Prime Minister Gordon Brown used Maxton as the basis of his PhD thesis at university and he also wrote a biography of him called Maxton.

I have posted the following photograph of the Garngad in 1925 before in post #121 but I was not sure of its exact location in Garngad. After taking advice from a few people including the GG poster BigArturo1, I am now sure that the photograph was taken from Provanhill Street looking northwards. The first thing you can see are the back courts of Garngad Road (Royston Road). Beyond Garngad Road, as you move from left to right (ie west to east), you can see the 4 parallel street of Turner Street, Villiers Street, Bright Street and Cobden Street each running in a south to north direction. Lastly, in the distance, you can see a big chimney in Charles Street opposite the northern entrance to Villiers Street.

http://www.theglasgowstory.com/image.php?inum=TGSA05269

http://www.theglasgowstory.com/imageview.php?inum=TGSA05269

James Maxton was a hero to many of the working class people of Glasgow even beyond his Glasgow Bridgeton parliamentary constituency. I know my grandparents loved him.

Posted by: Wee-Sprokit 1st Feb 2009, 09:07pm

QUOTE (Guest Maria * @ 16th Jun 2007, 05:36pm) *
#84 Andersons Dairy Earlston Avenue

I remember one day I was in the dairy & Carl Denver the country & western singer was in too see his aunty (I think she was the owner) There was a big blue American car outside, he was dressed in a pale blue cowboy style suit (Like the one's the Texan oil men wear) He also had on a big white cowboy hat on. The shop was so crowded as everyone wanted his autograph, he sang a song I can't remember the title, he also said that he knew Elvis & that he had stared along side him in Las Vagas...I don't know if that was true!!! My aunt Margaret stayed there before she moved to Pravanmill...then imigrated to Australia with her family...I think that Lena (last reply page 7 is my cousin as my grandmother was also born in Bright St.I think Turnner St or (Road) as it is now called is where the Costco's & Post Office depot is. I will check the next time I am round that way...I also knew Hugh Colins...I worked part time in the fish & chip shop Royston Rd just arround the corner from Earlston Av...I was 12yars old & also went to St Rochs Sec...I then went on to St Gerards in Govan...the headmaster @ St Rochs at the time was a Mr. Jameson my teachers name was Miss Gewer...her married name was Mrs O Neil.

I too remember 'Carl Denver' as he was once called, his real name was Gus Mckenzie, and married a Jeanie Boyle, He was in the Carl denver Trio when i knew him and played along side his brother-in-law Jimmy boyle and my uncle Dick mcleish,, he lived in Rymer St, before he became kinda famous and left his wife and son, His son was killed in a road accident many years ago,, the last i heard about him was a few years ago working in Spain doing the club scenes, he died about 2yrs ago, i doubt he ever got to meet elvis lol

Posted by: Wee-Sprokit 20th Feb 2009, 07:47pm

[font="Times New Roman"][/font][size="3"][/size]Hello Joe McInally,,,, Im sure your the same joe that lived at 35, Tharsis St, ?? if i remember well you lived at the bottom of the close with your Dad Hugh, and the McQueens next door to you, i was above the Mcqueen, and our name was McLeish, there were 10 weans in my family, (6 lassies, 4 boys) my da was Tam and my Ma was hannah, Harry rodgers lived next door to us and Hugh Collins was up the stairs, along with his unlces Jackie and alex, I remember when you moved out my uncle james Stewart moved into your house, and your Dad moved to 37 Tharsis st, ?? my granny stewart lived up that Close too, she was stone deaf and we had to sign langage to her, plus there were a lot in the Stewart family, it was great to read about you Joe,, Abnd hoping it is the same Joe McInally haha!!!

QUOTE (J.McInally @ 13th Dec 2006, 09:53pm) *
Hello everybody. I found this site through reading Robert McLaughlin's site and I must say the whole route has been very interesting. I am an ex-Garngader myself, and I state here and now it will always be the Garngad to me, I never refer to it as Royston, I even address all my letters to there as Garngad ( the Garden of God ) to this day and they still get there. I was born in Rhymer St and at an early age (5) we moved to Tharsis St where I lived in the same close as the McQueens and the Collins', referred to by Robert. I ran about with Harry McQueen and Hughie Collins, the guy mentioned by Robert as being jailed for murder, as well as his uncle Alec, among others. It was ironic that when reading through Robert's site that I couldn't recall him, him stating that he had been a policeman and from Tharsis St,that wouldn't have gone un-noticed in Garngad, until he mentioned that he had lived in the Copperwork and had then moved to the flats, that's when everything came together and I realised that I had ran about with his brother Tommy. I have since E-Mailed Tommy and he does recall me and as I had praised his brother's site, he thanked me for my kind words, it was just a shame that I never got the chance to express them to Robert himself. I knew Big Willie John Monaghan and all his family, many's the times I climbed the drainpipe for Mrs Monaghan because she had left her key in the house. I ran about with and played football with his son Willie junior, I even manged to bump into him on a visit back to the Garngad to see my old man, who still resides there ( age 82 ).I stood at Celtic Park with Willie junior and the Romeos (or the Romies as they were referred to ), and willie juniors brothers James and Terry. The Faulds' that Robert mentioned as well were, I am sure, cousins of the Monaghans, and Albert is back living in the Garngad. Sad to say one of the daughters, Helen, who I also knew from my childhood. died not too long ago. My Father was brought up, and as I said, still lives in the Garngad. My Mother, who has sadly passed away, was also brought up in the Garngad, her maiden name was McDade.

To Paul Kelly, Paul thanks for another bit of history and nostalgia about the Garngad. Between you and Robert McLaughlin it has been to say the least very interesting.
Can I also add that as far as I know the wee Roch will be celebrating it's Centenary this year, I am sure.
'Bye everyone, Joe.


Posted by: sally collins 7th Mar 2009, 11:35am

hello Paul, i came across this site trying to find out about Bright Street still existing,when i noticed your name was Kelly and your family resided at 27 villiers street,that is where my gggrandfather lived his name was John kelly who came from Donegal,my Great grandmother,Jane Kelly resided at 42 Bright street 1897 does this mean we are distantly related?

Posted by: supersal 7th Mar 2009, 02:39pm

Hi there,my gggrandfather was John Kelly on his marriage register he is listed at living 27,villiers street glasgow,he also came from Donegal,i also have my great gran living at 42,Bright street,Glasgow her name was Mary Kelly are my Kellys related to your Kellys paul if they both lived at the same address

Posted by: Paul Kelly 8th Mar 2009, 10:30am

Hi Supersal.

I am fascinated by what you are saying. You say you have your greatgreatgrandfather John Kelly's marriage certificate? Well, if his parents were John Kelly and Ellen Bonar, then we are from the same Kelly family in County Donegal, the Kellys of Meenavoy, Stranorlar.

As I mentioned in my introductory post to this topic, my greatgrandfather Hugh Kelly (born 1866 in County Donegal) moved to Glasgow around 1887/88 where he lodged with his older brother Willie Kelly at 27 Villiers Street, Garngad. Willie Kelly had moved to Glasgow around 1883/84 with his newly wed Irish wife Mary McGlynn. According to their childrens' Scottish birth certificates, it seems Willie Kelly and family had stayed at 23 Fountainwell Road, Sighthill when they first arrived in Glasgow. Willie had been a grave digger in Sighthill cemetery. In 1887/88 Willie Kelly and family moved to 27 Villiers Street, Garngad around which time my greatgrandfather Hugh Kelly came over from Ireland and lodged with them until his marriage to Elizabeth McCormick in 1890.

According to a Kelly 3rd cousin from County Donegal whom I met over the internet, my greatgreatgrandparents John Kelly and Ellen Bonar/Crampsey had at least 11 children and that 3 of the sons - John, William and Hugh (my greatgrandfather) - moved to Glasgow as young men. Willie was about 5 years older than Hugh and I think Willie and John were about the same age. According to my Irish 3rd cousin, John Kelly died young in a work related accident in Glasgow, leaving a wife and a young daughter. I have no idea where in Glasgow John had stayed - though Garngad seems likely - or the names of his wife and daughter.

Supersal, when exactly did your greatgreatgrandfather John Kelly stay at 27 Villiers Street and where and when did he get married? I have never bothered checking who was staying at 27 Villiers Street in the 1881 census as I know Willie and Hugh moved to Glasgow in 1883/84 and 1887/88 respectively. I have no idea when John came to Glasgow. I will check the 1881 census for 27 Villiers Street the next time I buy units for the scotlandspeople website.

Paul

 Meenavoy_Ancestors_Updated.doc ( 32K )
 

Posted by: supersal 8th Mar 2009, 11:39am

hello paul,John Kelly,married Jane Mcdonald in the district of st.Rollox 1878,they were both registered living at 27 Villiers Street Glasgow 1878,his fathers name was John Kelly but i cannot decipher his mothers name but it does look like too many letters for Ellen,John and Janes daughter was Mary Kelly(my greatgrandmother)she was born 1880 .it does seem a bit strange if they are not related but lived at the the same address.although they were living there some years previous to your Kellys.

Posted by: supersal 8th Mar 2009, 03:12pm

Sorry, i have made a mistake with Janes surname it was DONNELLY, not mcdonald

Posted by: supersal 8th Mar 2009, 10:26pm

hi paul, its me again, now iam confused,on Mary kellys death certificate her mothers maiden name is Donnelly on her marriage it says her mothers name was mcdonald also on janes death certificate her name was mcdonald,so iam sure John kelly was married to Jane Mcdonald lol

Posted by: supersal 8th Mar 2009, 10:36pm

My greatgrandfather,Athur Alcock who married Mary Kelly was living at 130,garngadhill 1897

Posted by: Paul Kelly 10th Mar 2009, 06:15pm

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 8th Mar 2009, 12:17pm) *
Hi Supersal.

I am fascinated by what you are saying. You say you have your greatgreatgrandfather John Kelly's marriage certificate? Well, if his parents were John Kelly and Ellen Bonar, then we are from the same Kelly family in County Donegal, the Kellys of Meenavoy, Stranorlar.



QUOTE (supersal @ 8th Mar 2009, 01:26pm) *
hello paul,John Kelly,married Jane Mcdonald in the district of st.Rollox 1878,they were both registered living at 27 Villiers Street Glasgow 1878,his fathers name was John Kelly but i cannot decipher his mothers name but it does look like too many letters for Ellen,John and Janes daughter was Mary Kelly(my greatgrandmother)she was born 1880 .it does seem a bit strange if they are not related but lived at the the same address.although they were living there some years previous to your Kellys.


Hi Sally.

I am just after looking up the marriage certificate for myself on the scotlandspeople website. It states your greatgreatgrandfather John Kelly was the son of John Kelly and Mary Docherty. (It is not very clear but I think it says Docherty.) John Kelly married Jane McDonald at St Mungo's RC chapel, Townhead on 11th May 1878. John and Jane had both been residing at 27 Villiers Street, Garngad at the time of their wedding. That is quite a coincidence as my greatgrandfather Hugh Kelly (son of John Kelly and Ellen Bonar) had also been residing at 27 Villiers Street, Garngad at the time of his wedding to Elizabeth McCormick at St Mungo's RC chapel, Townhead on 18th July 1890. I wouldn't rule out that my greatgrandfather and your greatgreatgrandfather were somehow related given that you said your greatgreatgrandfather came from County Donegal. Do you have any idea where in Donegal he came from? Kelly and Docherty are both very common surnames in east Donegal.


QUOTE (supersal @ 8th Mar 2009, 04:59pm) *
Sorry, i have made a mistake with Janes surname it was DONNELLY, not mcdonald



QUOTE (supersal @ 9th Mar 2009, 12:13am) *
hi paul, its me again, now iam confused,on Mary kellys death certificate her mothers maiden name is Donnelly on her marriage it says her mothers name was mcdonald also on janes death certificate her name was mcdonald,so iam sure John kelly was married to Jane Mcdonald lol


If your greatgreatgrandmother Jane was Irish or of Irish extraction then it wouldn't surprise me if her real surname was Donnelly. Many of the 19th century Irish immigrants that settled in Scotland 'Scotticized' their surnames. Sometimes it happened by accident as they were illiterate. Often though they did it deliberately as they thought they would have a better chance of 'getting on' in Scottish society and avoid discrimination with a Scottish surname. Donnelly is a native Gaelic Irish surname from the Donegal/Tyrone border area in west Ulster and I have briefly mentioned it before in the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'.

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6148&view=findpost&p=151050

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6148&view=findpost&p=151091

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/

Your comments reminded me that a few months ago I had correspondence with someone whose 19th century Donnelly Irish ancestors (from County Derry) settled in Glasgow and adopted the Scottish surname of Donaldson. It appears your Donnelly ancestors adopted the Scottish surname of McDonald.

Posted by: supersal 11th Mar 2009, 10:31am

hi Paul,thanks very much for the info,unfortunatley i dont know which part of Donegal they came from,i have spoken to my father about it, he just remembers visiting an uncle out there when he was about 6 years old well hes 76 now and his memory isnt what it used be,but thanks again cousin(maybe) LOL X

Posted by: stratson 29th Mar 2009, 03:48pm

Paul, I found your documentation of your forefather's very interesting. Your research is meticulous.
My forefather's were Irish, have successfully researched my maternal g/mother's side,
My mother's side am finding great difficulty, mum dying so young and not knowing where they were born is drawing blanks.
Was reading your profile, your daughter is a very beautiful looking child.
Do you get homesick at all.? smile.gif

Posted by: Paul Kelly 4th Apr 2009, 07:25am

Thanks Stratson.

I occasionally miss Glasgow and Scotland though not that much. However, I do miss my parents and my brother and I realise my parents are getting old. My dad turns 75 this year and my mum turns 72. I have stayed in Botswana since January 1996 and I have been back to Scotland several times for a holiday. My brother has visited me in Botswana and I am currently trying to persuade my parents to come out for a holiday while they can still manage. I think they might come later this year. I am keeping my fingers crossed.

I love staying in Botswana and I don't think I could ever go back and stay in Scotland. I am married to a Motswana and I am too used to the Botswana way of life. In January 2005 I renounced my British citizenship and became a citizen of the Republic of Botswana so there really is no going back.

Paul

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 4th Apr 2009, 11:24am

Hi Paul,
I agree with Stratson on your very beautiful daughter.
They say home is where the heart is.
I always believed it was where you hung your hat.
I met a girl during my travels who doesn't like to to travel, 20 years ago.
I gave up travelling
I was wrong; they were right.
We, you and I, both know that now, I guess.

Posted by: RonD 18th May 2009, 10:08am

It is with deep regret that I have to post this note from Paul's spouse:

" I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I wish to inform you that Mr Paul James Kelly had acar accident on the 7th of May and did not make it.

I wish to thank you all for being part of Paul's Life and for your contribution in this difficult time. I also wish to say to you all; lets celebrate the fact that we knew this wonderful man and that he was part of our lives. do not be saddened by his departure but rember the good things that he did in this world. HE IS A HERO TO OUR FAMILY AND I HOPE HE WAS ALSO THE SAME TO YOU ALL.

Please know that now this email address does not function in the sense that it will never be accessed. I just thought you deserve to know. Sorry for the shockfrom the address( for those who know already).
Thank you."

Mrs Kerly D Kelly ( Spouse)

Posted by: GG 25th May 2009, 08:54pm

Please note that I have moved all posts expressing condolences at Paul's death into the one topic located here, where they will be easier to find.

Sad News: The Death Of Paul Kelly
http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=16578

I will keep Paul's topics open to discuss the subjects covered.

GG.

Posted by: Patrick 2nd Aug 2009, 01:48am

I was born in 1958 and lived in Rhymer Street until 1988 when I got married.
My father was Patrick McNair and My mother was Lizzie McNair.
My Gran stayed near St Roch's primary school and her name was Mary Anne.
My Grandad was Jock who used to frequent the Budgie in Blochairn.
My father spent saturday afternoons at the footie and the hibs hall.
I went to St Roch's primary then Secondary.
We lived at the close near the lane (110) and my uncle Tommy lived in the house underneath us. He was known as Wee Roabbie and he was a plasterer to trade.

Posted by: corner boy 22nd Sep 2009, 09:45am

QUOTE (wellfield @ 10th Jun 2008, 04:11am) *
Did you know that Stevie Chalmers(Celtic)was from Garngad before his family moved to Lamont Rd in Balornock when he was a lad.


3 players that played as striker for scotland all came from the hill, JIMMY MCGRORY STEVIE CHALMERS AND THE hun JIM FORREST.
REGARDS
CORNER BOY

Posted by: gbawley 12th Oct 2009, 02:47pm

QUOTE (mariemc @ 19th Apr 2008, 02:15pm) *
Hi there, were there any McCaig's or Timmony's living in Garngad at any point? Thanks!


Posted by: gbawley 12th Oct 2009, 02:54pm

QUOTE (mariemc @ 19th Apr 2008, 02:15pm) *
Hi there, were there any McCaig's or Timmony's living in Garngad at any point? Thanks!

Marie,
the 1901 cenus for Scotland shows your GG grand father living at 52 bright street Townhead Glasgow.
Thomas Timoney age 50 born Ireland
Mary Timoney age 44
James age 24
Thomas age 23
William age 18
Elizabeth age 16
Sarah (your great gran ) age 14
Mary Ann Timoney age 10
Margaret Timoney age 8
Michael Timoney age 5
Patrick Timoney age 3
Adrew age 5 months

Posted by: rondo 10th Dec 2009, 10:34pm

the romemos are a family that have gerations brought up in the garngad my granda franise johnstone was brought up there untill with his own family moved to blackhill but my granny often spoke of rosie romeo i went to st rochs as did my mum and her broters and sisters the monaghans were related through marriage i went to scholl wae maggie romeo and i knew james mccormack and johnny there was alot of the family around the area i have found memories of the garngad in my younger days and the many stories my granda and granny told iam in my 40s and mr bonner was the asistant head wen i was at school mr gates music teacher was my reg teacher

QUOTE (valros @ 30th Aug 2006, 12:56pm) *
Hi Paul,

Willie John Monaghan is a name I heard a lot of while growing up in Garngad. Do you know if he was related to the Romeo family? If so, then I do know who the person is--I didn't know him personally though.

I was brought up in Rhymer Street but knew such a lot of people from the "Road"

Many of the names mentioned in the webpage, I have heard my parents speak of. Rosie Romy as she was known as, lived two closes away from my grandmother in Villiers Street. I don't remember the woman myself but I knew her grandsons through school and living in the area.

Can you tell me where the Glenn family lived Paul?

How I dearly wish I had seen that Garngad site before Robert McLaughlin died, there are a few questions I would loved to have asked him.

Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

My cousin's wife was brought up in Provanhill Street and I have printed out some of it to send on to her because she too will know many of the names.
I will ask her if she knew of a Glenn family.

In fact Paul, one of the articles there is about Hogmanay in the old Hibernian Hall, she and my cousin used to go there all the time when it changed to Royston Social Club, I was in it myself a few times.

Small world isn't it? wink.gif

Valros


Posted by: rondo 10th Dec 2009, 11:07pm

i knew galloways of that address think the kenndys stayed above them dont know if they are still around the area as its changed a great deal now

QUOTE (Tommy Kennedy @ 6th Jun 2007, 04:32pm) *
Does anyone here know/remember the 'Kennedys' who lived at 31 Sandmill Street, Garangard - 1936/37/


Posted by: Sean Sweeney 20th Dec 2009, 01:43am

My deepest sympathy to Paul's family at Paul's untimely death. I only visit the site every few months and the last visit was in the spring.

I came upon this thread by chance and while reading Paul's account of his family's history, realized that he and I were related, we shared the same great grandfather. In turn, his grandfather was Michail Connolly and mine was Patrick, who married Anne Moan, whose father's boarding house they resided in when arriving from Armagh.

I recall many afternoons spent with his grandmother, Sarah McKenzie, over tea and scones.

My mother was Bridgetta Connolly, Anne Moan and Patrick's first child, born in Truner Street in 1917. Granny Moan moved to Royston Sq after WW2 and I would spend summers there. My folks moved from Maryhill in 1950 with me to NYC, where I now reside.

So, it is with great regret to learn the loss of a dear relative and a great blogmaster.

Posted by: MICHELE ROMEO 9th May 2010, 08:31pm

Yes Big Willie Joh Monaghan is related to the Romeo's. Cousins. My father was Patrick Romeo, and when I was a little girl I used to go visit the Monaghan's often. My dad, Pat had a mobile grocery store (van), many people knew him, I believe on Royston Rd. Right up from the school and the church, parked at the top of the hill. write back if anyone knew my dad. He passed in 2003, we moved to the USA in 1980
thanks,
Michele Romeo

QUOTE (valros @ 30th Aug 2006, 01:15pm) *
Hi Paul,

Willie John Monaghan is a name I heard a lot of while growing up in Garngad. Do you know if he was related to the Romeo family? If so, then I do know who the person is--I didn't know him personally though.

I was brought up in Rhymer Street but knew such a lot of people from the "Road"

Many of the names mentioned in the webpage, I have heard my parents speak of. Rosie Romy as she was known as, lived two closes away from my grandmother in Villiers Street. I don't remember the woman myself but I knew her grandsons through school and living in the area.

Can you tell me where the Glenn family lived Paul?

How I dearly wish I had seen that Garngad site before Robert McLaughlin died, there are a few questions I would loved to have asked him.

Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

My cousin's wife was brought up in Provanhill Street and I have printed out some of it to send on to her because she too will know many of the names.
I will ask her if she knew of a Glenn family.

In fact Paul, one of the articles there is about Hogmanay in the old Hibernian Hall, she and my cousin used to go there all the time when it changed to Royston Social Club, I was in it myself a few times.

Small world isn't it? wink.gif

Valros


Posted by: andy k 22nd Jul 2010, 12:30am

QUOTE (Catherine Kennedy @ 31st Oct 2007, 08:43am) *
Thank you Paul for some fantastic information. I'm just researching my family history and have found a list of addresses where my great grandparents lived from around 1892 through till about 1918. At some stage they came to Australia (around 1914), but when my g-gf was injured in WW1 my g-gmother did come back to Scotland. I had figured out that Garngad Rd had become Royston Rd, but couldn't figure out where the other streets they had lived were. I'm not sure if anyone could help me and I'm not even sure that the addresses are in Garngad, some of them are in Dennistoun, please forgive my ignorance, I've never been to Glasgow so have no idea of the geography and how far apart places are.
My great grantparents were married at St Mary's Chapel Calton, in 1892. Their address at the time was given as 89 King St,Glasgow. The next address I have is 6 Comely Park Place, Glasgow, I can't find this address anywhere. The next address I have is from my great aunt's death certificate. In 1906 they were living at 37 Cobden St, which was described by Paul so now I have a mental picture. In 1911, my great grandmother inherited money from her brother, so there is a lot of correspondence from the solicitors and her address changes 3 times in about 2 years. In April 1911 it was 7 Wesleyan St Gallowgate, then by August 1911, 20 Bright St Garngad and finally Dec 1912, 149 Garngad Rd. My great aunt Ellen Kennedy married William Croal at St Roch's 18th July 1913. It's been interesting to read all the information, and I'm sad in a way that I won't be able to visit and see where they lived, but I'll look up the link suggested and hopefully find some old photos.
Catherine


Posted by: Dennis South 15th Sep 2010, 08:47pm

Hi

I would like if possible any information on the below believe father John Kelly born 1873 and lived in Glebe Street in 1907 - married Mary Kelly 2 March 1907 St Mungo's RC Church, Glasgow

Christina Kelly
12 December 1908 5h 30m PM
29 Parson Street, Glasgow
Father - John Kelly - Carter
Mother - Mary Kelly m/s Kelly
Parents married - 1 March 1907 - Glasgow
Registered by Father
ST ROLLOX - GLASGOW

Christina living at 39 Bright Street in 1924

Regards

Dennis

Posted by: Dennis South 15th Sep 2010, 08:55pm

Hi

I have another request if possible on the following pair

Marriage:
Record Type Civil Marriage
Date of Marriage 02 May 1887
Groom Name alexander CRAIG
Bride Name alice PATTERSON
Church Saint Annes Church of Ireland
Parish Shankill
Civil District Belfast
County Antrim

Surname Firstname Year Fathers Firstname county
CRAIG ALEXANDER 1887 JAMES Antrim

Surname Firstname Year Fathers Firstname county
PATTERSON ALICE 1887 THOMAS Antrim

Lived in Glasgow and were at 35 Young Street, Glasgow when a son Thomas Angus Craig was born in 1904

Death ..

Alice Craig
(married to Alexander Craig - Irondresser)
7 December 1907 3h 50m PM
1 Bowlinggreen Terrace, Glasgow
39 Years
Father - Thomas Paterson - Farmer (deceased)
Mother - Margaret Paterson m/s Paterson (deceased)
Cause of death - Pelvic cellulitis
Registered by A Craig - Son
BRIDGETON - GLASGOW

Any help would be most appreciated

Thanks Dennis

Posted by: Dennis South 15th Sep 2010, 09:22pm

Sorry one last entry

Looking for details on Sarah Craig b 1928 - her parents were Thomas Angus Craig a boot repairer and Christina Kelly - they were married in 1924 at St Rochs, RC Church, Garngadhill, Glasgow

Thanks

Dennis

Posted by: garngad ward 16th Nov 2010, 09:23pm

.

Posted by: *doncaster tom* 23rd Dec 2010, 02:17pm

i went to the roch wee daddy kelly was headmaster, my teacher was one eye joe .i came from blackhill was known as [shorty ] left school in 1956 new paddy monachan henry welsh packys youngest brother

Posted by: *doncaster tom* 24th Dec 2010, 12:49pm

To michelle romeo the romeos used to live in maryston street blackhill for a while .i remember them i last heard one of them lived in peterborough spoke to my brother 23/12/2010 in florida clearwater and he was with rosie romeo i think he said that was pats wife she lives in california tommy short.

Posted by: kirsty gray 12th Aug 2011, 05:44pm

hiya my nana and granda stayed in 24 provanhill street. their names were robert stewart and elizabeth stewart/caldwell. this was in 1946 when my nana had her first born robert stewart. just wondering if anyone remembers them. thanks x

Posted by: kirsty gray 12th Aug 2011, 06:07pm

hiya my nana and granda stayed in 24 provanhill street. their names were robert stewart and elizabeth stewart/caldwell. this was in 1946 when my nana had her first born robert stewart. just wondering if anyone remembers them. thanks x

Posted by: *Richard* 6th Sep 2011, 09:03am

Hi, I was very interested in your research. I am researching George Anderson whose address is given as 85 Garngad Road, Glasgow in the 1851 Scot Census, and whose occupation is Manager St Rollex Flax Mill. Does this Mill appear on your 1894 map of the St Rollox (Townhead, Port Dundas and Garngad) district of Glasgow? It seems that George Anderson (who was born in Liverpool) employed mainly Irish workers in his Mill. It also seems that he was not a bad person as he was a Liberal and was elected to represent Glasgow with William Graham and Robert Dalglish in the remarkable Liberal triumph of 1868. He retired in 1885.

Posted by: RonD 28th Sep 2011, 10:14am

I was driving through Hamilton, Ontario when I noticed a vanity licence plate on the vehicle ahead of me. It read "Garngad"!

Posted by: Jimmuck 30th Oct 2011, 04:57pm

Matches ma "BARL" wan Ron.
I have found out that my Gran' Sarah Brillie/Brilley came from Hartfield St, Toonheid, where her family lived. She had a brother 'Ned' probably Edward? who lived up the Garngad area. I seem to remember visiting them once and it was near/across from those big Gasworks? that were there.
Anybody know any Brillie's? Mr.Kelly??
I had a false lead that put my GGparents in Bellshill, but recently found out they were off of Parly Rd. all the time.
My auld auntie Agnes remembers they had 'wooden landings and stairs up to their houses' and she always felt unsafe.
How many times have I walked/bussed past the Castle St/Parly Rd corner and never had a clue my GGparents were from that area??
Haw Wullie, did ye ever go tae school wae a Ned Brillie pal??

Posted by: Glesga Geek 31st Oct 2011, 01:08pm

QUOTE (*Richard* @ 6th Sep 2011, 08:29am) *
Hi, I was very interested in your research. I am researching George Anderson whose address is given as 85 Garngad Road, Glasgow in the 1851 Scot Census, and whose occupation is Manager St Rollex Flax Mill. Does this Mill appear on your 1894 map of the St Rollox (Townhead, Port Dundas and Garngad) district of Glasgow? It seems that George Anderson (who was born in Liverpool) employed mainly Irish workers in his Mill. It also seems that he was not a bad person as he was a Liberal and was elected to represent Glasgow with William Graham and Robert Dalglish in the remarkable Liberal triumph of 1868. He retired in 1885.


Hi Richard,

I have found the Flax mills on the 1860 map and have also posted a modern map of it now:

Also Garngard St is now Royston Road so he lived in the street parallel to the mill.

Hope this helps?




 

Posted by: Jimmuck 1st Nov 2011, 08:15pm

Matches ma "BARL" wan Ron.
I have found out that my Gran' Sarah Brillie/Brilley came from Hartfield St, Toonheid, where her family lived. She had a brother 'Ned' probably Edward? who lived up the Garngad area. I seem to remember visiting them once and it was near/across from those big Gasworks? that were there.
Anybody know any Brillie's? Mr.Kelly??
I had a false lead that put my GGparents in Bellshill, but recently found out they were off of Parly Rd. all the time.
My auld auntie Agnes remembers they had 'wooden landings and stairs up to their houses' and she always felt unsafe.
How many times have I walked/bussed past the Castle St/Parly Rd corner and never had a clue my GGparents were from that area??
Haw anybody??? did ye ever go tae school wae any Brillie's folks??

Posted by: Charles K 2nd Nov 2011, 01:32pm

Hello all. . i'm quite new at this site and am really quite delighted to see so many people who remember Garngad. Although my name is also Kelly, I am no relation to the head master not the originator if the blog. .
My family lived in 27 Cobden St. I remember an old lady who had a shop in the street. A church meeting hall also in the street.
I also remember the "tally" cafe on Garngad road opposite Cobden St.
On the way to school ( St. Rollox) we had to pass the wash house as we walked over the "Coup" (not sure about the spelling) and passed the piggery. I also remember men playing pitch and toss in the back yard.
We were 4 families living on each landing and sharing a toilet on the stair. My mother took great pride in having a white doorstep as I'm sure some of your mothers did.
We lived in a room and kitchen with cold water. We had a gas stove and gas light.
The radio was powered by an accululator which was rechanrged at a garage in Villers St. if I remember correctly. .
We left Grangad when I was 7 and moved to Possil Rd to a 3 roomed flat with an indoors bathroom and electricity Such luxury !!
Please keep up writing about Garngad. .

Posted by: dlurinsky 11th Jan 2012, 01:15pm

Hello there been reading all the posts and its just like my dad said it was my dads name is samual lurinsky does anyone remember him or can give me some history about him and his family is love to read more

Posted by: Foxy52 11th Jan 2012, 01:29pm

QUOTE (dlurinsky @ 11th Jan 2012, 08:31am) *
Hello there been reading all the posts and its just like my dad said it was my dads name is samual lurinsky does anyone remember him or can give me some history about him and his family is love to read more


Hello , l was pals with a Louie Lurinsky, he had a younger brother called Danny, at that time they lived at 425 Keppochhill road, at the top of Pinkston road. They moved from there in the mid 60s to the Townhead area, l think around Taylor St. and Baird st. Would that be the same family?
Cheers
Foxy

Posted by: Foxy52 11th Jan 2012, 02:45pm

Hi again, Now that l think about it l am almost sure that Louie's young brother was Sammy. The one thing l can remember for sure was that Sammy's nickname was "BoBo"
Foxy

Posted by: dlurinsky 11th Jan 2012, 03:04pm

Yeah thsts the same family there were loads of them and they all had the same names but my dads uncle was Samuel and Louis and his dad was John lurinsky my dad is 64 now i love hearing my dads storys and now i love reading about it

Posted by: dlurinsky 11th Jan 2012, 03:04pm

Yeah thsts the same family there were loads of them and they all had the same names but my dads uncle was Samuel and Louis and his dad was John lurinsky my dad is 64 now i love hearing my dads storys and now i love reading about it

Posted by: May Adair 14th Jun 2012, 03:09pm

Hi Paul,

My mothers family came from Middleton St as well in the 1890's was wondering if anyone knew them or if there was still family living in the area. Rebecca McMenamy and Hugh mclarnon.

May

Posted by: JIMOBRIEN 11th Aug 2012, 03:35pm

[quote name='Wee Mary' date='15th Jan 2008, 09:00am' post='180063']
Hi Paul

This is amazing! This elusive William has been hard to track and we've found him at last. A bit about the O'Briens.

Joseph O'Brien (father of William born 1867 in Lurgan) married Margaret Patterson by civil ceremony in Lurgan in 1852. It was one of the first civil ceremonies performed in Ireland as they were of different religions. Joseph was the son of (wait for it!) Joseph O'Brien and Mary Ditty. We have more Joseph O'Briens in this family tree than you could shake a stick at. The Ditty surname is common to Derry (or Londonderry); they were (and are) a family of bakers.

Joseph O'Brien and Mary Ditty's children - we have found three so far: Joseph born c.1831, brother William b.1834 and sister Mary b.1835. Joseph (1831) is the father of William b.1867.

Where old Joseph and Mary Ditty came from, we cannot ascertain at this point. What we do know is that William and Mary were baptised in Lurgan (parish of Shankill), but Joseph b.1831 we haven't found a birth record as yet; we think they came from elsewhere. Not many O'Briens in northern Ireland, then or now.

I found Joseph O'Brien and Margaret Patterson in the 1860s, living in the hamlet of Knockramer, and the hamlet of Beauconnel from Griffiths Valuation of Ireland (about 1864). These hamlets were on the outskirts of Lurgan and all of the land, including the town of Lurgan, belonged to Charles Brownlow, Lord Lurgan. The Brownlows inherited the land from a Brownlow who was given the land by Elizabeth I after the Flight of the Earls. The land originally belonged to the O'Neills. There's plenty of historical information on the Brownlows on the internet. The Brownlow rent rolls are held by the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland (PRONI), but there's no mention of our Joseph in it, his holding was too small. According to Griffiths Valuation he lived in a cottage which was valued at ONE POUND! On some of the birth records he is listed as a weaver - Lurgan and other parts of Northern Ireland were famous for their linen weaving in those days.

Charles Brownlow seems to have been a benevolent man and a fair landlord. He gave his catholic tenants a piece of land to build their church on. He died during the famines of famine fever, helping out at the poor house etc. His story is on the internet. Brownlow House (his mega mansion) is now the world headquarters of the Orange Lodge.

You've solved a riddle for us. We now know that Joseph O'Brien, his wife Margaret Patterson and their substantial brood of 12 children, migrated to Glasgow via BELFAST. I found them on the 1881 census for Scotland, living in Queen Street, Govan. They had a child born in Lurgan in 1874 (I think), so they must have gained employment in the ship building in Belfast (Harland and Woofe?) and then moved on to employment on the Clyde. Every generation thereafter all were ship builders on the Clyde, including my own father who worked in John Browns Ship Yard in Clydebank.

The O'Briens moved to Gordon Streeet, Whiteinch where they lived until Joseph died in 1896. All the details, dates of births, deaths etc are on my cousin Helen's website:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~pavlich/

Helen's very clever. She's got a whiz bang web site. I have a web site too for the O'Brien Clan world wide. I'm the host for Australia:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~obrienclanaus/

Mine's not as clever as Helen's, but it's been a bit of a labour of love!

Have a look and see what you can glean. I'll give Helen the latest data to add to the tree.

Cheers
Mary
Hello Mary/Helen i have just been reading your pages,iam a bit confused no doubt you will put me right,my father William Joseph O'Brien and brothers and sisters lived i believe in Turner st ,my granny had a ham an egg shop again i think in Turner st,poss they are related to the O'Briens you mention,granny moved from there to barlornock and my father and mother Margaret (Peggy) nee Goodwin moved to Dunolly st after a short stat in Mary Hill.i tried to get onto your web site with no luck.

Posted by: petunia 13th Oct 2012, 04:33pm

does anyone know of any Reid family in that area in the late 1800 early 1900's?

Posted by: weemaryp 16th Oct 2012, 03:32pm

Hello everyone.
I am new to this site, but love it.
I too was born and brought up in Garngad,
in Rosie Romeo's old flat at 149 Royston Road.
Well, until 1959 anyway, when they demolished the old tenements.
My father's name was Hughie Paton from Bright Street.
He was a great accordionist, and very popular for weddings and bus runs.
My mother Annie (Nan) Mc Nulty came from Bright Street too.
Most of my family, on both sides come from Bright Street, or Garngad Road.
I would love it if someone remembered them, or their famillies,
but I suppose that they may all be gone. Pity.
Bye for now.
weemaryp

Posted by: weemaryp 16th Oct 2012, 03:42pm

PS
I am so sorry if anyone responde and I dont appear to reply,
but I have great difficulty using this site, as I find it really confusing.
It is so hit and miss with me.
Any hints would be appreciated,
thats if I can find them ?!!!!!!!!
Mary

Posted by: charlie mc garrigl 6th Dec 2012, 02:30pm

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 30th Aug 2006, 09:02am) *
Hi Valros.

In 'The Garngad Heritage, The Unpublished Work', Robert McLaughlin and Ronnie McDonald both write affectionately about a man called Big Willie John Monaghan. Even Hugh Collins in his autobiography makes a warm reference towards him. I am sure Big Willie John must have been a well known character in the Garngad area in the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s. I was wondering if you knew him.
I have also been meaning to ask you if you knew a Glen or Glenn family from the Garngad. They would have been distant relatives of mine through my McCormick ancestors.

All the best,

Paul


Posted by: Ekelly 11th Apr 2013, 08:04pm

QUOTE (sally collins @ 7th Mar 2009, 11:52am) *
hello Paul, i came across this site trying to find out about Bright Street still existing,when i noticed your name was Kelly and your family resided at 27 villiers street,that is where my gggrandfather lived his name was John kelly who came from Donegal,my Great grandmother,Jane Kelly resided at 42 Bright street 1897 does this mean we are distantly related?

Hi

I am probably to late to join this.

My Great grandfather was called john Kelly ( he was a widower) He went on to marry an Elizabeth McLaughlin (McGee/McGhee) he lived in 36 villiers street in 1913 and they went on to have a son in 1915 called Edward Kelly (My Grandfather).

Posted by: FerGeddes 2nd Aug 2013, 05:14pm

Hi all,

Great forum.

I am looking for anyone related to Alexander and Margaret McGrory in 1910 they living at 302 Garngad Road, St Rollox


Also looking for any descendants of John Glen and Mary Ferguson from around same area late 1880s to 1930s

Posted by: *Brian* 5th Oct 2013, 12:55am

QUOTE (Paul Kelly @ 23rd Aug 2006, 03:08pm) *
In 'The Garngad Heritage, The Unpublished Work', Robert McLaughlin says he remembers that one of the families that stayed next to him at Tharsis Street in the 1940s was the Collins family, and that he thinks one of the Collins boys was convicted of murder in later life. I recently came across a book in a bookshop here in Gaborone called 'Hugh Collins - Autobiography of a Murderer'. The book is about convicted murderer, Hugh Collins, born in Royston (Garngad) in 1951. It is the story of the archetypal Glasgow hard man. The Gorbals had Jimmy Boyle. The Garngad had Hugh Collins. The book won't be everyone's cup of tea and the language is very strong.

Collins describes his early years growing up in Royston (Garngad) and his teenage years as a member of the Garngad gang - The Shamrock - of which he claims to have been a founding member, aged 15, along with his friends 'Wee' Joe Mulligan, Joe 'The Bear' Devlin and Albert Faulds.
He gives a vivid description of Glasgow's street gangs of the 1960s:
The Shamrock (from Garngad), The Cumbie (from Cumberland Street, Gorbals), The Calton Tongs, The Bridgeton Spurs and The Maryhill Fleet. He describes how he was stabbed and slashed, aged 15, in a gang fight against The Cumbie, and again, aged 18, in a gang fight against The Tongs. He explicitly describes his gangland life which continued into his 20s and which ended ultimately in tragedy. In 1977, Collins was convicted of the murder of William Mooney, whom he stabbed to death in a Glasgow bar. Collins was released from prison in 1992 and nowadays lives with his wife in Edinburgh.

The early part of the book has a lot of info on Garngad in the 1950s and 1960s. Chapter 1 of the book starts as follows:

I'm five and a half years old, attending St Roch's Primary School in Glasgow. The teacher, Miss O'Donnell, has asked us each to stand, walk to the front of the class, and tell the others what our fathers do.
'My da's a railway worker,' says one, and sits down.
'My da's a postman. He delivers the mail.'
It's my turn, and I walk to the front with some pride.
'My da,' I say, 'is Wullie Collins. He's like Robin Hood. He takes from the rich and gives to the poor. My da's a bank robber.'
The class erupts, shrieking with laughter. I'm immediately embarrassed. Miss O'Donnell is taken by suprise. That's the end of that exercise, and my Granny is summoned.
'He's not a bank robber, Hughie. You mustn't say that. You musn't ever say that.'
So who had told me? Did I get the idea from Ginger McBride?

I guess you will have to buy the book if you want to read more.


Posted by: GG 16th Feb 2015, 12:24pm

.

Posted by: Kathleen Beattie 4th Mar 2015, 12:42pm

QUOTE (AndyR1 @ 3rd Jun 2006, 07:17am) *
Thanks Valros the name of the families are Reidford, Clark and Brown and as far as I can tell the Reidfords lived in 74 Earlston Avenue from the early 1930`s until the 1950`s but the families lived in the area before these dates. The Clark/Brown family had a grocery shop in the area but I dont know its name. Any help would be great as I`ve got family in Canada who are trying to find out more about Garngad.

To the fellow who had relatives called Redford at 74 earls ton avenue. My family nancy, John, John,Cecilia, Kathleen and. Gerard. Beattie, along with my mothers' father and mother, John and Jeannie Reilly lived at 84 Earlston avenue, from 1943 to 1956 love to hear that name again!

Posted by: Helen mccabe mcewan 14th Nov 2015, 04:50pm

Hiya my names Lynn also know as helen mccabe. Was wondering if anybody knows any information in the kellys that lived on 12 tharsa St garngad glasgow round about 1900 onwards. That was my great grans address annie kelly and her daughter my gran was called helen kelly (mccabe) married name. Thanks Lynn.

Posted by: Guest 12th Apr 2016, 12:52pm

QUOTE (Helen mccabe mcewan @ 14th Nov 2015, 04:58pm) *
Hiya my names Lynn also know as helen mccabe. Was wondering if anybody knows any information in the kellys that lived on 12 tharsa St garngad glasgow round about 1900 onwards. That was my great grans address annie kelly and her daughter my gran was called helen kelly (mccabe) married name. Thanks Lynn.


Posted by: AndyR1 7th May 2016, 08:06pm

QUOTE (Kathleen Beattie @ 4th Mar 2015, 01:42pm) *
To the fellow who had relatives called Redford at 74 earls ton avenue. My family nancy, John, John,Cecilia, Kathleen and. Gerard. Beattie, along with my mothers' father and mother, John and Jeannie Reilly lived at 84 Earlston avenue, from 1943 to 1956 love to hear that name again!

Hi Kathleen any info you can pass on to me would be great thank you

Posted by: JosieHiggins2015 4th Jun 2016, 09:06pm

Does anyone know of the Brown family living at 69 Provenmill Street or the Bell Family living at 30 Fillers Street Garngad