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> Scottish Independence, About voting yes/no
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JAGZ1876
post 24th Feb 2013, 04:16pm
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QUOTE (farrochie @ 24th Feb 2013, 11:44am) *
I spoke to a couple of people recently and got interesting responses.

1. D is English, living in Scotland this past 10+ years, married to a Scot and with 2 children. We worked in the same company for a time and now meet up occasionally. Her immediate response to my question on independence was that she would be sent out the country. After a few minutes of deconstructing the anti-independence "overnight foreigners" argument (A. Darling), I said that all "new Scots" are welcome here. She said she wants her children to grow up here and wants this to be their country, voted for Blair's government but will never again vote Labour owing to Iraq. I believe D will now vote Yes.

2. A is a waiter and is from Nepal; has lived and worked in Scotland for 4 years. He had a great feeling of connection between the Gurkhas and the Scots. [As with many Asians, "Braveheart" was a favourite film.] A will be voting Yes as he believes London does not have the interests of Scotland.

My point is, we really need to speak to people and find out what their concerns are and try to answer them truthfully. We can't leave this to the political parties and their supporters.


I can't understand where your Ex work colleague got the idea that she would be "sent out the country" farrochie as many YES voters are English living in Scotland, perhaps if the Tory led No Better Together are spreading lies about repatriation then English members of the YES Scotland campaign should allay their fears by making a statement debunking the unionist lies, the Scottish Governments Mike Russell (Education) would be ideal for this task.

Many Asian's will be voting YES next year, indeed the "Asians for Independence" movement is growing larger by the day, although to be fair there are still some Asians who like other unionists prefer Scotland to be ruled by an unelected Tory Westminster government who place Scotland and her interests very low on their list of priorities.

The concerns of the population could be addressed if the MSM presented a fair and balanced approach to the debate by giving both sides of the arguments instead of reporting the negative NO campaigns scare story's and lies as facts whilst ignoring the YES campaign.
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JAGZ1876
post 24th Feb 2013, 04:56pm
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QUOTE (Alex Saville @ 24th Feb 2013, 02:53pm) *
Interesting, farrochie, that you use the phrase "New Scot 's are welcome here".
This is a phrase trotted out on a regular basis by the SNP who don't share the publics concerns about immigration.


I believe we should be educating our own young people if we have a skills shortage in Scotland.
That, however, is not a view shared by the Politically Correct, nor, I'm sorry to say, the SNP..

Alex


Who made you spokesman for the great Scottish public Alex?

I think you will find an independent Scotland will be a welcoming place for people from elsewhere who want to work hard and add their skills to improving our country, you can quote all the British social studies attitude surveys you like, they are only going to give the views of the English dominant population, i think you will find the views of the people of Scotland on the EU and immigration very different.

There will be no place for xenophobia in an independent Scotland,

As for the SNP not "educating and giving our young people skills" Alex, i have lifted this from the SNP's own website.


Action on Youth Unemployment - We will provide support for 125,000 modern apprenticeships over the lifetime of the Parliament and a commitment that every 16-19 year old in Scotland not in work, part of a Modern Apprenticeship scheme or receiving education is offered a learning or training opportunity.

A little research goes a long way............
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Alex Saville
post 24th Feb 2013, 04:57pm
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Davey, I see that you still find the need to be offensive when you deride others comments.
If you feel that the figures presented by an independent organisation with charitable status are questionable, thats your prerogative.
Please also note I do not speak from a 'Better Together' perspective.
I speak from the perspective of my own view and relate the information I have came across for the perusal of others.
They can agree or disagree at their leisure.
I, however, reserve my right in a democratic society to express my views.
Since I live in Springburn, Glasgow, and you live in Yorkshire, perhaps you are more aware of whats happening in Scotland than I am.
If you want debate, fine.
If you want to be offensive, I'll treat your remarks with the contempt they deserve!


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Alex Saville
post 24th Feb 2013, 05:37pm
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JAG1876
So who made you the spokesman for the great Scottish public then?

That survey has been going for 30 years. Are you suggesting that that organisation has never polled in Scotland?
That Scots have never taken part?
Strange since they have an office here to do just that.
There will no nothing in Scotland if people like you get your way. The 'Thought Police' strive everyday to restrict what people think.
George Orwell got it right, he just got the year wrong!

Because people don't want unlimited immigration, want to restrict entry, and feel that the citizens of their country should come first, does not make them " Xenophobic"!
When people express an opinion other than the one you have does not make them Xenophobic, Racist, Homophobic or or anything else.
It makes the debate DEMOCRATIC.

I've read a number of your posts and you seem to be a staunch SNP supporter. Thats fine.
However, you'll have to accept that other people may not share your rigid views on the party.
I am not a member of any party, nor have I ever been. I am, however, a member of that Clan, the Scottish Working Man.

Whats on display on the SNP website is there for the benefit of fellow traveler's.
I think the problem with the SNP is that, like you, they thought that the massive result they received in 2011 was down to their policies.
I take the view (And I voted for them, by the way!) that the result was mainly because the opposition was poor, VERY POOR!
It will be interesting at the next election to see what that result will be.

I note also that you hide behind a non-de-plume. I have the courage of my convictions, therefore I use my own name!
As you will have noticed!




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wee davy
post 24th Feb 2013, 05:44pm
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??? Offensive, Alex? Help me SERIOUSLY with that one, please.

Your 'independant organization' works for, and provides surveys for, UKPLC. You even state so yourself, 'This survey is sponsored by a number of UK Government departments including the Dept. for Works & Pensions'

They are also BASED (in Milton Keynes, I believe) down South.

Full House - yet another doesn't want to answer the big Q

Attached Image

I'd rather NOT know this statistic, thank you


I dont think it matters a monkeys, where I live - I'm a Scot - a proud one - and will also speak my mind.

PS your Scottish 'leg' has about 3/4 Scottish employees and probably outsource actual polls the Uni's. In England, its about a staff of about 90 with London weighted allowances. Gimme a break here.


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bilbo.s
post 24th Feb 2013, 05:48pm
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If you want debate, fine.
If you want to be offensive, I'll treat your remarks with the contempt they deserve!


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


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Just because we disagree doesn't mean I don't like you, and just because I don't like you doesn't mean I disagree with you.
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JAGZ1876
post 24th Feb 2013, 06:42pm
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QUOTE (Alex Saville @ 24th Feb 2013, 05:54pm) *
That survey has been going for 30 years. Are you suggesting that that organisation has never polled in Scotland?
That Scots have never taken part?
Strange since they have an office here to do just that.
There will no nothing in Scotland if people like you get your way. The 'Thought Police' strive everyday to restrict what people think.
George Orwell got it right, he just got the year wrong!

Because people don't want unlimited immigration, want to restrict entry, and feel that the citizens of their country should come first, does not make them " Xenophobic"!
When people express an opinion other than the one you have does not make them Xenophobic

I've read a number of your posts and you seem to be a staunch SNP supporter. Thats fine.
However, you'll have to accept that other people may not share your rigid views on the party.
I am not a member of any party, nor have I ever been. I am, however, a member of that Clan, the Scottish Working Man.

Whats on display on the SNP website is there for the benefit of fellow traveler's.
I think the problem with the SNP is that, like you, they thought that the massive result they received in 2011 was down to their policies.
I take the view (And I voted for them, by the way!) that the result was mainly because the opposition was poor, VERY POOR!
It will be interesting at the next election to see what that result will be.

I note also that you hide behind a non-de-plume. I have the courage of my convictions, therefore I use my own name!
As you will have noticed!


Alex, any poll taken on a National (UK) level just like a general election will only reflect the views and wishes of the dominant English population, which is why no matter how we vote in Scotland we will only get the government elected by the English electorate.

You say that "people don't want unlimited immigration" but i don't recall any party advocating it, or do you mean that you don't want immigration full stop?

I'm a staunch supporter of independence Alex, the SNP and i don't see eye to on everything, they are only a vehicle to an end.

I do not hide behind a non-de-plume Alex, as you can see most people on GG use user names, if you want me to reveal my name i shall, but i can't see how this would change my or your view's?

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wee davy
post 24th Feb 2013, 07:19pm
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Ah hide behind bamboo shoots and do handstands, occasionally


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farrochie
post 24th Feb 2013, 10:01pm
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Thanks for the responses, folks.

I just wanted to tell these two stories because they are real people making up their minds about how to vote.

Alex, I'm happy to use the term "new Scots". Most of my ancestors went to Detroit, Michigan where they became new citizens of the USA, a country that prided itself in its welcome to people from other countries.

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
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wee davy
post 24th Feb 2013, 10:25pm
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What an exquisitely beautiful piece

"The New Colossus" is a sonnet by Emma Lazarus (1849–87), written in 1883 and, in 1903, engraved on a bronze plaque and mounted inside the lower level of the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty.

Thank YOU farochie, for sharing it with us


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*Abhrann*
post 25th Feb 2013, 01:54am
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QUOTE (farrochie @ 24th Feb 2013, 10:18pm) *
Thanks for the responses, folks.

I just wanted to tell these two stories because they are real people making up their minds about how to vote.

Alex, I'm happy to use the term "new Scots". Most of my ancestors went to Detroit, Michigan where they became new citizens of the USA, a country that prided itself in its welcome to people from other countries.

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

That is why the Irish " The wretched refuse of you teeming shore" left for there in their millions, they were not welcome in this xenophobic cabal of the united kingdom, nor its' offshoot of "North Britain".
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john.mcn
post 25th Feb 2013, 01:21pm
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Scottish independence: Scotland able to keep pound

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/polit...pound-1-2808127

QUOTE
AN INDEPENDENT Scotland will be able to keep the pound, the UK government will argue next month – but only if Scottish ministers accept budget constraints set by London, it was reported last night.



Another backtrack? Anyway as The BoE is an independent institution outwith Westminster control how can they insist on controlling Scotlands budget ??


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Mikhail Gorbachev
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JAGZ1876
post 25th Feb 2013, 03:59pm
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QUOTE (Abhrann @ 25th Feb 2013, 02:11am) *
That is why the Irish " The wretched refuse of you teeming shore" left for there in their millions, they were not welcome in this xenophobic cabal of the united kingdom, nor its' offshoot of "North Britain".


Had you been as up to speed with Scottish history as you clearly are with Irish history then you would have been aware that the Highland clearances of the 18th and 19th century's had seen the population being cleared to make way for sheep and other profitable agriculture trade, sending the native Highlanders like the Irish to make their way to North America as well as other places because of "this Xenophobic cabal of the United Kingdom", of which Ireland was a full part of as it was still under English rule.

So please don't try and pretend that it was only the Irish who suffered at that time in the history of the Union, Scotland (i refuse to use your unionist North Britain slur) has had more than it's fair share.
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DavidT
post 25th Feb 2013, 04:19pm
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QUOTE (farrochie @ 24th Feb 2013, 10:18pm) *
Thanks for the responses, folks.

I just wanted to tell these two stories because they are real people making up their minds about how to vote.

Alex, I'm happy to use the term "new Scots". Most of my ancestors went to Detroit, Michigan where they became new citizens of the USA, a country that prided itself in its welcome to people from other countries.

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

The huddled masses don't fare too well in Lou Reed's modern take of these lines in 'Dirty Boulevard'. The original lines reflect a nation's willingness to be a nurturing force for good. Reed's modern interpretation shows new arrivals begging, robbing and dealing on the streets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z3TPwOT31g...be_gdata_player
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farrochie
post 25th Feb 2013, 04:23pm
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QUOTE (Abhrann @ 25th Feb 2013, 02:11am) *
That is why the Irish " The wretched refuse of you teeming shore" left for there in their millions, they were not welcome in this xenophobic cabal of the united kingdom, nor its' offshoot of "North Britain".


Thanks, 'Abhrann'.

Almost an entire generation of my family left Uddingston for Detroit in the 1930s. My grandfather (like his father and grandfather (originally from Ireland)) were coal miners.

Remember too the large number of Scots who were forced by famine, crop failure and clearances to Canada and other territories. According to census data number of Canadians claiming full or partial Scottish descent is over 5 million.

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