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> Uk Independence Referendum - Brexit, Yes or No on EU membership
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Kemedian
post 9th Jun 2015, 11:27pm
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QUOTE (Alex Salmond, SNP Foreign Affairs spokesman @ Westminster today)
When you propose a referendum it should be because you are proposing a change, you are proposing a significant constitutional change, whether it be for the alternative vote, or Scottish independence, or Scottish devolution or Welsh devolution, you are proposing a change and you are looking for democratic sanction, the sovereignty of the people to back your change. But that is not the position of the Prime Minister, nobody seriously believes that the Prime Minister wants to take this country out of the European Union, the referendum is a tactic.

53 SNP MPs today voted against holding a Referendum on EU membership (and lost), for reasons explained by the MP for Gordon above.

Didn't the SNP say it wants to give Scotland a stronger voice at Westminster?

I want my voice to be heard. I say, bring it on, and no to UK Independence!

The UKIP will be delighted, of course, because the Referendum will present it with a huge platform on which to get its message across. It will be hoping to replicate the rise of the SNP on the back of last year's Scottish Independence Referendum (probably more than realistically hoping to achieve anything near the 45% of electorate support won by Scotland's very popular Yes campaign).

Politics in Scotland is thriving due to our own Indy Ref. Shouldn't our 56 SNP MPs be in favour of keeping the ball rolling? Another healthy constitutional debate, this time about Britain's membership of the EU, is surely in the public interest! Scotland did, after all, vote to be a continuing member state of the UK. Yet, by voting against the Bill in Parliament today, it could be argued that the SNP wants to deny the people of the UK (including us) the chance to have their say, which by definition would be undemocratic.

I am unconvinced by the SNP argument against holding an EU Referendum and, in my opinion, today the 56 failed their first test. The Scottish Government won the right to hold the last one, and it's only right and fair that the British Government gets to hold this one.

We learned where we stand in the debate on Scottish independence, and that's an important reason why I'm in favour of having another in/out referendum on Britain's EU membership. While knowing where we stand doesn't end the debate, it does however allow us to move forward with greater certainty and confidence (providing, of course, the Government accepts the outcome and isn't intending to embark on a 'neverendum' until it wins, and democracy loses).
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john.mcn
post 9th Jun 2015, 11:57pm
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Salmond is right though, Cameron is offering a referendum but doesn't want the UK to leave. We are simply getting one because the Tories needed to take the thunder away from Farage and UKIP, it worked. People who may have been Tories but wanted out of the EU stuck with Cameron.
Labour have now 180'ed because they are bricking it.
The SNP didn't fail their first(???) test they passed with flying colours, they were against it prior to the election and are still against it, sticking to their guns or shock horror, their election manifesto is why they are popular and why your party who flips theirs for power is not...


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“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”
Mikhail Gorbachev
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Kemedian
post 10th Jun 2015, 12:12am
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QUOTE (john.mcn @ 10th Jun 2015, 01:05am) *
why they are popular and why your party who flips theirs for power is not

Why do you insist on associating me with a particular Party, when I hold no Political allegiance whatsoever. I am simply a voter who makes up his mind at every election depending on what's being said by each Party.

Salmond accuses Cameron of using the EU Ref as a tactic, and regarding this point you are failing to make I accuse you of the same. dry.gif
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flam
post 10th Jun 2015, 09:28am
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I am with the SNP we must stay in EUROPE
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Betsy2009
post 10th Jun 2015, 09:39am
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Shame we couldn't just go back to the Common Market / Free Trade.
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Kemedian
post 10th Jun 2015, 03:05pm
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QUOTE (flam @ 10th Jun 2015, 10:36am) *
I am with the SNP we must stay in EUROPE

So you're against having a referendum, Flam?

I'd be interested in a poll of members on this very question:


'Are you for or against holding an EU referendum?'


Perhaps someone else could set up that poll, as I don't know how to? GG ? unsure.gif
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carmella
post 10th Jun 2015, 04:26pm
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I have always said that I did not want to be 'in Europe', actually, what I really mean is that I don't mind being in Europe, but what I resent is that it is Europe who tell us what to do, what to sell, and under what conditions. I don't want them to add their 2c worth into our legal decisions.

In other words, none of this was done when we were part of the Common Market, so I want out if it means staying under the present conditions, there is much I dislike about it. We can still trade with Europe as we did in the past.

We should be left to make our own decisions in these islands that are the United Kingdom.


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Silence is a true friend who never betrays.

Confucius - Chinese Philosopher - [551bc-479bc]
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DannyH
post 10th Jun 2015, 10:00pm
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QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 10th Jun 2015, 10:47am) *
Shame we couldn't just go back to the Common Market / Free Trade.



Hello Betsy

I agree with you entirely. The problem now is that many UK politicians see the European Union as another step up on the career ladder for themselves. I have lost count of the number of times I have read press reports, that former Westminster politicians have been given an unelected position in the EU, giving them a lucrative salary with expenses, all as a show of appreciation for the work they have done on behalf of their UK political party.

We can hardly expect Alex Salmond to go to the House Of Lords and save face, can we. However a few years down the line when he is suceeded by younger SNP politicians, Brussells will be a nice wee sideline. Neil Kinnock will be able to give him advice on how to make the most out of this 'little earner'. It is funny (but not funny Ha Ha) how an organisation that holds so much power, is full of has-been politicians.

Potugal, Italy, Spain and Greece all shining examples of why we should be in Europe. Countries that were formerly behind the Iron Curtain now forming a significant part of the EU. Turkey wanting to come in. The Ukraine been torn apart because some of their politicians want to be part of the EU.
You know Betsy, the more I ramble on, the more I agree with the one simple sentence you have posted. Well done!

Regards

Danny
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john.mcn
post 10th Jun 2015, 10:38pm
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QUOTE (Kemedian @ 10th Jun 2015, 12:20am) *
Why do you insist on associating me with a particular Party, when I hold no Political allegiance whatsoever. I am simply a voter who makes up his mind at every election depending on what's being said by each Party.

Salmond accuses Cameron of using the EU Ref as a tactic, and regarding this point you are failing to make I accuse you of the same. dry.gif


During the ref you insisted you were an SNP supporter but wanted to keep the union. In the run up to the election you were either for Labour or the Snp only to then come out of the broom cupboard to say you were Libdem. They couldn't hold onto their support never mind attract so called 'new voters' so you'll have to forgive me for doubting that you chose them at the last minute despite them refusing to work with the SNP (something that you say you dropped Labour for).
Now here you are criticising the SNP for having the audacity for actually following through on their election manifesto by voting against the EU bill going through parliament. It was right there in black and white for anyone to see and the people responded by sending 56 down to Westminster, if anything they should be commended for sticking to their guns.
Now bear in mind i am actually for EU change and if it doesn't then i will be putting my mark against the 'get me the hell outa here' box so my view goes against the SNPs but i would have been disappointed with them if they voted for the EU referendum when they were against it in the run up to the election, other parties it seems have no qualms about doing so though.


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“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”
Mikhail Gorbachev
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*Tally Rand*
post 10th Jun 2015, 11:22pm
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QUOTE (Kemedian @ 9th Jun 2015, 11:35pm) *
53 SNP MPs today voted against holding a Referendum on EU membership (and lost), for reasons explained by the MP for Gordon above.

Didn't the SNP say it wants to give Scotland a stronger voice at Westminster?

I want my voice to be heard. I say, bring it on, and no to UK Independence!

The UKIP will be delighted, of course, because the Referendum will present it with a huge platform on which to get its message across. It will be hoping to replicate the rise of the SNP on the back of last year's Scottish Independence Referendum (probably more than realistically hoping to achieve anything near the 45% of electorate support won by Scotland's very popular Yes campaign).

Politics in Scotland is thriving due to our own Indy Ref. Shouldn't our 56 SNP MPs be in favour of keeping the ball rolling? Another healthy constitutional debate, this time about Britain's membership of the EU, is surely in the public interest! Scotland did, after all, vote to be a continuing member state of the UK. Yet, by voting against the Bill in Parliament today, it could be argued that the SNP wants to deny the people of the UK (including us) the chance to have their say, which by definition would be undemocratic.

I am unconvinced by the SNP argument against holding an EU Referendum and, in my opinion, today the 56 failed their first test. The Scottish Government won the right to hold the last one, and it's only right and fair that the British Government gets to hold this one.

We learned where we stand in the debate on Scottish independence, and that's an important reason why I'm in favour of having another in/out referendum on Britain's EU membership. While knowing where we stand doesn't end the debate, it does however allow us to move forward with greater certainty and confidence (providing, of course, the Government accepts the outcome and isn't intending to embark on a 'neverendum' until it wins, and democracy loses).

Nothing was settled in a final sense by the "Loyal and true to the Red White and Blue brigade" 5%ers.

They voted in fear of loosing their darling queen and having a takeover of Scotland by the Vatican.
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Kemedian
post 11th Jun 2015, 09:58am
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QUOTE (john.mcn @ 10th Jun 2015, 11:46pm) *
I am actually for EU change and if it doesn't then i will be putting my mark against the 'get me the hell outa here' box so my view goes against the SNPs but i would have been disappointed with them if they voted for the EU referendum when they were against it in the run up to the election, other parties it seems have no qualms about doing so though.

I'd like to find out the spread of support/opposition on GG for the SNP's opposition (surprise, surprise) to the Government's proposed EU referendum, but somehow the board isn't allowing me to set up a poll.

Would you mind arranging the poll, while the issue remains live, because it would add to this debate?

Going by the replies above, I'm not sure but I think the score is currently 5 in favour to 2 against holding a referendum.
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Betsy2009
post 11th Jun 2015, 10:23am
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Well I'm in favour of holding a referendum but fear that it's just a very expensive PR exercise. Big business (including politicians who have fingers in several pies) won't let the UK leave the EU.
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john.mcn
post 11th Jun 2015, 05:53pm
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QUOTE (Kemedian @ 11th Jun 2015, 10:06am) *
I'd like to find out the spread of support/opposition on GG for the SNP's opposition (surprise, surprise) to the Government's proposed EU referendum, but somehow the board isn't allowing me to set up a poll.

Would you mind arranging the poll, while the issue remains live, because it would add to this debate?

Going by the replies above, I'm not sure but I think the score is currently 5 in favour to 2 against holding a referendum.



Why do you want to know if people agree with the SNP or not? It was in their manifesto so no one should complain that they did what they said they would do, labour were against having one but come the vote voted for it, so if there's to be any poll it should be asking if people who voted for Labour were miffed they reneged on their manifesto within a month of the election. I have no idea what was in the LibDems manifesto but we all know it's not worth the paper it's printed on anyway.


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“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”
Mikhail Gorbachev
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JAGZ1876
post 11th Jun 2015, 06:07pm
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There is no point in using facts to reason with kem John, best if he commissioned his own doorstep poll, i'd love to hear some of the comments he'd get. laugh.gif
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Kemedian
post 11th Jun 2015, 08:32pm
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QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 11th Jun 2015, 06:15pm) *
There is no point in using facts to reason with kem John, best if he commissioned his own doorstep poll, i'd love to hear some of the comments he'd get. laugh.gif

Perhaps I'd get a mixed response, although I'm not too sure what you're getting at.

As for John's quibble, as we know the SNP now represent/ speak for nearly the whole of Scotland at Westminster, which it seems is taking some supporters time to get used to. Going just by the replies so far, it does not appear however that the people of Scotland speak with one voice on the issue of whether or not to have a referendum. This is an undeniable challenge for the 56 SNP MPs, to effectively act on behalf of Scotland as a whole.

I would be interested in getting an indication of where Scottish opinion sits on the matter, by way of a poll on here. So, if you're reading this Mr Moderator (since I am also unable to use other board functions including private messaging, as I have been for some time), could you help by setting one up (or by enabling me to do so) ?
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