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> This Man Kennedy.
Betsy2009
post 24th Nov 2013, 01:37pm
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On a much smaller level - Obama will be a brave man to try to change 'every American's right to possess a firearm'.
I do hope that one day it will happen but human nature..!
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Noonan McKane
post 24th Nov 2013, 07:49pm
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QUOTE (Dante @ 24th Nov 2013, 08:29am) *
Kennedy like his family before him was a plutocrat and a racist. Racist that is because after having Sammmy Davis Jnr. A black and ostensibly Jewish, fight to get him elected, he excluded him from the inaugural ceremony in a despicable underhand way, by getting another actor to inform him as he was coward to do so himself. His antecedents were pro Hitler and strove valiantly to stop America entering the war in the Allies' favour. What did he accomplish, apart from vague inspirational speeches?

An escalation of the Vietnam war that cost the lives tens of thousands of young Americans. "Ask not what my country can do for me" Yeah right it can do Khe Sanh.



Racism? Don't call Sammy Davis "a black". He was black. He wasn't "a black". And he wasn't "ostensibly" Jewish. He was Jewish. Using the word 'ostensibly' suggests that he was pretending to be Jewish to hide the fact that he wasn't Jewish, which is just daft.
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Noonan McKane
post 24th Nov 2013, 08:16pm
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http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_FaQK48yiQlM/Rvb9...iteing+self.PNG

Look at this photo. It shows a group of men arrested and detained for 'vagrancy' in Dallas city centre on the morning of 22/11/63 by Dallas police, on the insistence of the secret service. They were ostensibly being removed from the scene for PR purposes, so as not to spoil the spectacle for the public and for the President, but it is very broadly held that one, probably more and possibly all of these men are in fact CIA 'black ops'; the marksmen who were to complete the task. There is no record of their arrest, detention or release, and none of them have been identified since.


(Sorry about the very small photo. I couldn't find any bigger ones.)
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dugald_old
post 24th Nov 2013, 09:02pm
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Hello Thh, and thanks for you tuppence worth. Oh yes, it's an interesting slant and there's not too much with which I can disagree. Och, I have to disagree with something (even if it is more of a digression than anything else!); how about the bit about him putting Kruschov in his place. Did JFK put Nikita in his place or did Nikita put Jack in his place? The world was in imminent danger of self-destructing. Now then, one or other of the pair had to back down... was it the 'backerdowner' who was the hero, or was it the 'hangerinner'? How did the American people view the outcome? Was it, "Wow! Thank God for JFK!" or was it "Wow! Thank God for Nikita'?

Ah tell ye Thh, I'm glad Nikita backed down, I see him as having been the hero. I wonder if the majority of Yanks saw it this way. Am I suggesting the majority of Americans didn't see anything wrong with them objecting to Soviet rockets in Cuba while Kennedy had his rockets surreptitiously stashed away on the Turkish border with the Soviet Union? No, I'm not, and in any case there was no reason to kill JFK for having taken the world to the brink of destruction. And after all, part of the Cuba settlement was the removal of the American rockets from the Turkish/Russian border.

So here I am, I've left myself wondering what this has to do with "This man Kennedy". Hmmm, well I think I'm okay here, but still stuck with the question: what does it have to do with Thh's contribution to "This man Kennedy".

By the way, I'd never have noticed your few extra capitals if you hadn't mentioned them. Oh, and your "I'm a doughnut" thing is worth a good chuckle.
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Dylan
post 24th Nov 2013, 09:47pm
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Many people at the time thought Nikita was the man of the moment.

Russia of course knew about USA Arsenal in Turkey and Cuba was a tit-for-tat.

It was suspected that Russia's Secret Service told Nikita that JFK was mad and would start WW3.

Nikita made the wise choice. !


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dugald_old
post 25th Nov 2013, 12:19am
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At the time Dylan, I too, thought Nikita was the man of the moment. I had a family of three young children at the time and I gave a lot of thought of how to get all of us out of the city of Toronto, a task which I knew very well was virtually impossible. At the time I was working under a transit engineer on a job for the Toronto EMO, the Emergency Measures Organisation (I think it was called). The Task was to use all of the city's transit vehicles and ambulances to evacuate all hospitals and old-folks' homes. We spent a whole week working on this and we'd pretty well organised an evacuation using mainly all public transit vehicles when the engineer came and told me to forget the whole thing because the drivers' union had vetoed the whole idea. Who can blame them, who was going to look after their families while the father was evacuating the old and infirm? From an analysis of the exits from the city it would have been neigh on impossible to drive out of the city. I was well aware of this and when Nikita backed down I felt an enormous relief.

I had never heard that JFK was mad and would start WW3, but I didn't think he'd have backed off going to war. They already had several divisions in Florida ready to invade Cuba, and when these high-ranking military Yanks have a chance to go to war, it takes a lot to get them to change their minds. No, I was scared. Nikita's turnaround for me was a great relief. I was afraid of Kennedy during the Cuban crisis.
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TeeHeeHee
post 25th Nov 2013, 12:00pm
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QUOTE (dugald @ 24th Nov 2013, 10:19pm) *
... Did JFK put Nikita in his place or did Nikita put Jack in his place? ...

Hi Dugald, funny you should ask that as I was just reading an article in Stern this morning in the Doctor's waiting room (got a bit too close to my finger yesterday with a cutting disc rolleyes.gif but two stitches sorted that out) and that particular author asked the same question as you ... and supplied detailed answers to explain why Kennedy's myth was smoke and mirrors.
The Chruschtow/Kennedy escapade; as we all know, did take us to the brink of WWIII and it was very likely that Nikita's backing down was what saved the day. Serge, Nikita's son, maintained that his father had the death of millions and the destruction in his land which resulted from WWII, still uppermost in his mind and didn't want to push the situtation so close to the edge where it would be catastrophic if Kennedy was left with only one option. Nikita's Cuba was Kennedy's Berlin.
There were four Russian nuclear-armed U-boats in the water about 300 miles off Cuba and although they were being shadowed, while maintaining radio silence, things were getting sticky down there: failed diesel engines were incapable of providing air conditioning leading to temperatures of between 50° and 60°, drinking water supplies were extremely low and tempers were high. Kennedy ordered depth charges which left the captain of the lead sub to believe that the shooting match had started and was ready to go down with all cannons blazing but his commander had ordered him to surface where he found a fleet of war ships, including an aircraft carrier, with all lights focused on him. Perhaps his commander was the real hero of that day.
The article went on to mention that Kennedy wasn't all that personally interested in the "black" problem either and gave it's reasons why but JFK had to be seen as doing something eventually. It mentioned too that it was JFK who ordered the use of the defoliant precursor to Agent Orange in Vietnam.
Although the author didn't involve himself with the various conspiracy theories he did give reasons why several groups would definitely want JFK to be taken out rather than risk another term in office. Lyndon B Johnson had enough of the Kennedy Clan and made his distaste, to put it mildly, obvious.
I read this morning too in an English newspaper that (next week?) another film taken on the day of the assassination; and held secret for 50 years, will be put up for view to the big TV stations and Newspapers, including Time, Fox, CNN etc, before going to auction.
The film purports to show clearly a gunman at the other disputed position; the grassy knoll.

By the time the good Doctor, who has difficulty seeing rolleyes.gif had stitched my wound (in that awkward spot between the index and middle finger) I'd completely forgotten about retreiving that Stern magazine .... but I'm going back tomorrow and I must read it again to see that wonderful quote made by JFK's VP, Lyndon B Johnson.
Watch this space. tongue.gif

ps. There was also a bit in the article which refered to one of the young ladies on the staff, whom JFK had bedded, who said that Jack told her while they were together in bed that rather than see his children killed in an all out war, he would rather that they grew up as communists: better red than dead was how she quoted him.

pps. The doughnut thing is echt, it's like saying I'm from Hamburg (Ich bin Hamburger) or I'm a hamburger (ich bin ein Hamburger). same with Ich bin Frankfurter as opposed to I am a big sausage (LOL as they say)


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dugald_old
post 25th Nov 2013, 09:32pm
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Great Post Thh! And if the stuff came out of Stern, it came out of a quality magazine. Maybe I wouldn't go so far as saying the Kennedy myth was all smoke and mirrors, I'm pretty sure a large part of it was. I believe what Kruschov's son said about his father having recent experiences of the death of millions and the destruction in his land during WWII--- aspects of war which Kennedy knew nothing about. How much the Soviet Military were breathing down Nikita's neck I can only guess, but I'm pretty sure their memories of WWII were just as vivid as Kruschov's, and in any case, if Stalin is something on which to base a bet, I'd bet that Kruschov lorded it over his military. Kennedy on the other hand I'd guess, yielded a great deal to the American Military not to mention the Industrial/Military complex of which Eisenhower warned us. The way I see it is that my fear of Kennedy and not Kruschov was not misplaced. Oh, and we'll give a meaningful nod too, to the captain of the Soviet sub who chose not to "go down with all cannons blazing".

I have never heard that the "atta boys" JFK received for his apparent contribution to solving the "black problem" were ill-deserved. This was one area I felt that his success was worthy of the highest praise. Can't be bothered looking further into the period when Luther King was assassinated and whether it coincided with Kennedy's reign, but I don't think it did. Neither was I aware that the Agent Orange disgrace had anything to do with JFK. Can one person have so many crosses to bear? Yea, well I guess he can, because I do recall quite a few of the American bombs which plastered Viet Nam had the JFK name on them, and he couldn't place all the blame on his Secretary of Defence, Robert McNamara , and Henry Kissinger, his part time foreign policy consultant.

No, there's no lack of strong motivation for getting rid of the Kennedys, but I still feel we need something further to bolster proof--- speculations aren't going to manage it by themselves. If indeed 'proof' at this late date can be found, how can we be sure it's genuine stuff? This other film purported to have been taken on the day of the assassination and held secret for 50 years for example, even if it looks genuine, with our knowledge of today's photographic skullduggery, how can we accept it? (Having noted your skill with photies, I'll bet you yourself could stick a gunman in a photo at the other disputed assassin's position on the grassy knoll). But hey Thh, don't forget to pick up Stern when you visit the doctor again.

I think your mention of the "better red than dead" incident regarding the Kennedy children, is the only good thing about the man that has appeared in our recent exchanges!

Übrigens, vielen Dank für die Auskunft bezüglich 'ich bin ein Hamburger' usw. (Es ist etwas das mich immer verwirrt. Nun verstehe ich.).

Interesting stuff to natter about here Thh. Cheers.
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carmella
post 25th Nov 2013, 11:18pm
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Again Dugald and I seem to be in agreement on many fronts. One of the things I've thought about re documentaries, you are of course correct, the closest we got in those days, certainly when I was very young and a teenager too going to the pictures was where we saw the newsreels, apart from that there was very little on TV (when we eventually got one) of the documentary kind. Nothing like today.

I find myself often wondering if this was 1939 and we had 24/7 media giving us all manner of information as and when it happened, would the way we feel, or the outcome of, and progressing of WWII have been perceived differently by those countries not invaded by the Nazis, and would the number of Jews and others have gone to death camps, had we a modern day mode of vast information, sometimes too much information. We will never know.

I often wonder too what it would have been like during the Kennedy years and subsequent years, if we had 24/7 media coverage when things get picked up on more readily than in the past. Investigative journalists chasing stories, would we have found out about Kennedy's dalliances sooner. As for Robert, I'm not sure Dugald, but I think he had dalliances also, in fact, I think a certain lady it was rumoured was passed to him when John F. was finished with her, but don't quote me on it, I either read about this or heard it mentioned in a docu.

Time has moved on, and we live in a different era of that there is little doubt, there are many 'ifs' and 'what ifs' that we will never know.


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dugald_old
post 26th Nov 2013, 08:44pm
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There's no doubt in my mind Carmella, that if we'd had 24/7 media giving us all manner of information as and when it happened, back in 1939, I'm sure things would have unfolded in a manner a great deal more to our liking. What, with all this sneaky wiretapping that's going on these days, the Nazis wouldn't have got beyond square one!

Likely too, we'd have had something better on which to hang our hats during the Kennedy reign; well, better than the mere speculation on which we have to rely today. The doubt you express about Robert Kennedy is the first mention I've heard of him following in his brother's amorous footsteps. I guess I had him wrongly figured--- it must be the "Who me?" expression of innocence with which he had been endowed.

"If" is indeed the name of the game today: the big wheel on which today's 50th anniversary speculations roll along on their way to the next resurrection of that day in Dallas so many years ago, that shook the world.
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GG
post 27th Nov 2013, 11:37pm
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When I've got more time to do so, I'd like to post a reply to this very interesting topic. however, in the meantime, I'm going to post a link to a very informative profile I found of Neville Chamberlain on the web. Particularly interesting – I thought – was Chamberlain's apparent commitment to improving the life chance of the working classes, as well as his stated role in abolishing the barbarous Poor Law.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRchamberlain.htm

GG.


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TeeHeeHee
post 5th Sep 2017, 08:51am
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QUOTE (GG @ 27th Nov 2013, 11:37pm) *
When I've got more time to do so, I'd like to post a reply to this very interesting topic. however, in the meantime, I'm going to post a link to a very informative profile I found of Neville Chamberlain on the web. Particularly interesting – I thought – was Chamberlain's apparent commitment to improving the life chance of the working classes, as well as his stated role in abolishing the barbarous Poor Law.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRchamberlain.htm

GG.


A-hem ... rolleyes.gif

biggrin.gif


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