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> Scottish Independence, About voting yes/no
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wee davy
post 8th Jan 2013, 05:58pm
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Dear Friends

I think a new Topic might do us all a world of good.

To kick off.
It is of course impossible to seperate your politics from such a discussion, without using your colours to form your argument. But it IS possible to refrain from allowing your beliefs to cloud the issue.

It is without a doubt, a MASSIVE decision - not just for Scotland - but for the whole of the UK.
One very contentious thing, is nuclear (having recently been discussed on other similar Topics).
But there are SO many more.

Brothers and Sisters, Mothers and Fathers, whole FAMILIES will be affected by it, on both sides of the divide.

The argument, in my humble opinion, hasn't even BEGUN yet.
Until those who OPPOSE independence give their reasoned arguments for remaining unified with a Westminster Government who certainly for MY lifetime, and historically, has always favoured the South of the 'UK', there is a real danger, apathy will win YET AGAIN.
Over 300 years ago, a significant, well to do lot, in Scotland, sold the country down the river. You now have a chance to reverse that. DEMOCRATICALLY.

What about family businesses in direct competion with each other - fighting for the same contract
???

My dear fellow GG'rs.

What is said on this forum, DOES have a certain amount of weight.
It is read by a whole HOARD of people (probably even those who are closer to the important and crucial decision).

I think we can do this, with the minimum of acrimony, bitterness, or even self beliefs.

There is MUCH to be discussed, before your vote, NEXT YEAR - NOW is the time for everyone to fight their corner. For all I know, to remain unified, may just be the right result. But would it be conceivable for Canada to become the 51st State?


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angel
post 8th Jan 2013, 07:03pm
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Well Davy , whether or no you find this a satisfactory answer to the
yes vote in the Scottish referendum it does'nt matter to me .
I came to my decision after reading what I could on this
separation from the UK , reading both sides of the great divide.

I am still of the opinion that Scotland should not break up the United Kingdom but should have talks with Westminster regarding Devolution ,
whatever that would be .


On Yahoo answers , about this nonsense on Canada being the 51st state , is as follows .

More importantly, when will the USA join Canada? Canada has a far more superior financial infrastructure, economy, education system, health care system and democratic government than the USA. If Americans want to improve their standard of living, they should consider joining Canada.
I think so ! yes.gif yes.gif

PS , it's Puerto Rico who wishes to become the 51st state .


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wee davy
post 8th Jan 2013, 11:24pm
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Hi angel
First of all, thanks a lot for responding.

I care not which way people's kilts fly on this one, too.
I'm looking for some honest to goodness discussion about the 'pro's' and the 'cons' of it all.
So,... after reading what you could, would you care to discuss the pro's for the status quo? (As you appear to have arrived at this conclusion).

Devolution was granted in 1997 - Scotland has had its own Parliament since 1999 I was being ironic, by the way, regarding the 51st State . I know Canada would never in a million years, give up its independence.

So how come its ok for you - and not for Scotland?

Best Regards,
wee davy


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angel
post 9th Jan 2013, 02:09am
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So,... after reading what you could, would you care to discuss the pro's for the status quo? (As you appear to have arrived at this conclusion).

Davy , if I was thirty years or so younger , I would'nt hesitate for a
moment to discuss as to why I believe Scotland should not
separate from the UK . However , it seems to me that Scotand has
enough power through devolution , to govern the country within the
United Kingdom , although , that is not enough for those who are
determined to separate , do they have legitimate reasons for this
move , now this is were I am at a loss but by the same token their
gripes are not enough to break up the UK and I say , if your
government is worth it's salt , then start negotiating and talk the talk ,
find ways to make the union work don't look for ways to break it up .

Davy , I have actually said this before , but for those hell bent on
separation , especially on this board , it means nothing .
Regards , Pat.

Also Davy , lets not get sidetracked here by bringing Canada into this.
There is already enough to deal with .
The United Kingdom versus Scottish independence
on the Glasgow boards . dry.gif


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Dave Grieve
post 9th Jan 2013, 07:37am
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There are numerous good reasons to stay with the Union.

How could Scotland survive without the House of Lords.

We surely dont have the savvy to run the country without the guidance of London Politicians.

We dont have enough money in the kitty to pay for the whole country to be on benifits

We need the London goverment to pay for those benifits.

The reason we need the London goverment to pay those benifits is because we are a nation of scroungers and drunks that need guidance from our southern neighbours.

North sea oil is going to run out some time this century and what will we do without the London Goverment to fall back on.

We need the annual hounours list to pretend to the nation that we are appreciated by the rest of the Union.

Scotland is incapable of running its own armed forces without the London goverment.

Scotland is to wee.

Scotland is to poor.

Scotland is to (fill in your own excuse)

Scotland needs the London goverment to take people of benifits when it gets itself into another war and calls our sons up to be used as cannon fodder

There must be many more reasons for staying in the Union but I'm sure all the Unionists on the board can list them.
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JAGZ1876
post 9th Jan 2013, 11:44am
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A big hand for the comedy stylings of Mr Dave Grieve....Dave's here twice a day until Friday laugh.gif


Seriously wee davy i applaud you for trying to set up a thread to get both sides of the debate actually discussing the issues that will affect us all.

If we can leave party political rivalries at the door and discuss what is best for Scotland, because regardless of who we vote for the most important thing in all this is what kind of Scotland would we like to leave behind for our children and their children.

For that reason i am nailing my colours to the independence mast, although before i give some of my reasons for doing so can i just say that i have an open mind on the subject and if anyone can convince me that staying under Westminster rule will be better for Scotland then i will change my mind.

As you have mentioned Trident wee davy can i just say that by not having that abomination on our doorstep the financial savings alone (let alone the health risks) plus the our contribution to send forces to fight in other lands would be around £1.5 Billion per year, just think of what a small country like Scotland could do with that one saving alone (NHS, schools, housing) there are many financial benefits (many have been discussed on here already but we can go into greater detail later) but there is more to this than finance, can anyone name a country that would give up it's independence to be better of financially?

Hi Angel, i read your post with interest and i can understand why you would have an emotional tie with the country you left behind, but can you remember the reason why you and your family left the UK?

If it was to find work, a financial decision to improve your lifestyle as most ex pats around that time did, then you surely cannot begrudge those still living here the right to do the same by making our own decisions, i know you may be unaware living in Canada but if we vote to retain the status quo then we will lose all the benefits we have worked hard to improve the lives of the people of Scotland like free prescriptions, free travel for our pensioners, no fee's for our students etc, this will all go if Labour win the next Holyrood election as they have promised to carry out the UK Tory governments swinging austerity cuts that have been resisted by the present Scottish government.

You may be unaware Angel but certain area's of Glasgow have introduced food banks for the poor, unbelievable isn't it, food banks in the 21st century Scotland, Europe's largest oil and gas producer, it makes me weep to think about how our money is wasted by a Westminster government who cares little for Scotland, so devolution is not enough we have to take control of all our affairs and put our people first.

I hope this is of some help to you Angel as to why their is a growing need for self determination, take care Angel and enjoy the rest of your day.

I hope we can have a good open debate wee davy, you've got the ball well and truly rolling.
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wee davy
post 9th Jan 2013, 12:24pm
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Thanks for that Dave - I was beginning to think I would turn into a skellington , before getting some kind of respose to a question I've been asking consistently, for months.
(Plus it gave me a good laugh)
We can only hope, jagz.


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john.mcn
post 9th Jan 2013, 01:34pm
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An independent Scotland wont need to spend hundreds of millions of £'s on bungs... sorry meant foreign aid!
In these times of financial hardships of many our own countrymen, i find it unbelievable that the foreign 'aid' budget' increases year on year(over £12.6B by 2014) while cuts are forced upon us.
If people after being taxed to the hilt find it in their hearts and wallets to fund charities that is their right, but we should look after our own first.


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Dylan
post 9th Jan 2013, 02:32pm
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"You may be unaware Angel but certain area's of Glasgow have introduced food banks for the poor, unbelievable isn't it, food banks in the 21st century Scotland, Europe's largest oil and gas producer, it makes me weep to think about how our money is wasted by a Westminster government who cares little for Scotland, so devolution is not enough we have to take control of all our affairs and put our people first."

There are food banks all over Britain, not only Scotland. There are poor people all over Britain, not just Scotland. I care about all of them.

The culprits are the Coalition Wesminster Govt.( Labour are in opposition !!! )

Under Devolution The Scottish Govt. are responsible for " Health Care ".

The Westminster Parliament , whatever shade, have no power and could not remove Free Prescriptions.

Nor could they remove our Bus Passes.

Scare tactics .



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angel
post 9th Jan 2013, 02:40pm
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thought I would add this to the pot .


2011 International Aid Donated (Official Development Assistance) COUNTRY For each $100 earned in the country, how much is donated in aid Aid as % of income How close the country is to reaching the 0.7% goal
Sweden 102 cents 1.02 Already reached goal
Norway 100 cents 1.00 Already reached goal
Luxembourg 99 cents 0.99 Already reached goal
Denmark 86 cents 0.86 Already reached goal
Netherlands 75 cents 0.75 Already reached goal
United Kingdom 56 cents 0.56 Scheduled to reach in 2013
Belgium 53 cents 0.53 Scheduled to reach in 2015
Finland 52 cents 0.52 Scheduled to reach in 2015
Ireland 52 cents 0.52 Scheduled to reach in 2015
France 46 cents 0.46 Scheduled to reach in 2015
Switzerland 46 cents 0.46 No schedule yet
Germany 40 cents 0.40 Scheduled to reach in 2015


Why the 0.7% Agreement?
The countries made this agreement because they realized that it was hard for each country on its own to give a consistent, minimum level of aid each year. Despite good intentions, a country would find that the aid it wanted to give was eaten away by competing political interests, concern about budget deficits, “problems at home,” “problems abroad,” and so on. So they agreed to a minimal, flat rate that each country could afford each year regardless of its current political or economic state.

The 0.7% figure may sound complicated, but it is actually quite simple. You take the total income earned by all the people in the country and then the government gives 0.7% (seven tenths of one percent) of that as aid. Or to look at it another way: for every $100 earned in the country, the country gives 70 cents in aid.

How are the countries doing?
As the chart above shows, five countries have already met the goal to give 0.7% of their income in international aid: Denmark, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, and Sweden.

In 2002 and 2003, five other countries set up a schedule to give 0.7%: Belgium, Ireland, Finland, France, and Spain.

In July 2004, the United Kingdom set up a schedule to give 0.7%.

In April 2005, Germany set up a schedule to give 0.7%.

In May 2005, Austria, Greece, Italy, and Portugal set up a schedule to give 0.7%.

It was not easy for many of the countries to set up a schedule to reach the 0.7% goal. In some cases, such as Britain and Germany, it took the combined effort of many thousands of citizens writing and petitioning their government to get it done.

It's about 22 countries in all who give international aid to poorer
countries .


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angel
post 9th Jan 2013, 02:51pm
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Hi Dylan , I am aware of the food banks , and I do not think they are a bad thing , In many cases it means that there will be those who are less
fortunate , that will get food . cheers .


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wee davy
post 9th Jan 2013, 05:28pm
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Your not quite right on the powers ALLOWED by Westminster, Dylan.

Legislation creating devolved parliaments or assemblies can be repealed or amended by central government in the same way as any statute

Cop yer whack fer that, Dylan

Although I would agree it would be highly unlikely to give with one hand, and take back with the other - thats the REAL relationship. Scotland is no more than a County Council within the UK, with a bit more power.


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JAGZ1876
post 9th Jan 2013, 07:59pm
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QUOTE (Dylan @ 9th Jan 2013, 02:49pm) *
There are food banks all over Britain, not only Scotland. There are poor people all over Britain, not just Scotland. I care about all of them.

The culprits are the Coalition Wesminster Govt.( Labour are in opposition !!! )

Under Devolution The Scottish Govt. are responsible for " Health Care ".

The Westminster Parliament , whatever shade, have no power and could not remove Free Prescriptions.

Nor could they remove our Bus Passes.

Scare tactics .


First of all what a refreshing change to have a mature debate without resorting to name calling or insults, and that goes for both sides.

Now Dylan, you will probably be right about food banks in other parts of the UK, but surely that is something to be ashamed of, as i have said this is the 21st century not 19th century Dickensian Britain where the poor house was the norm, we should not be allowing this to happen, and while i take your point that is happening across the UK we the People of Scotland have a chance to change things for the better by voting for a fairer more socially aware Scottish parliament, where we will spend money on tackling poverty, building schools etc, and everything else that we should hold dear, putting society first before wasting £Trillions on WMDs or trying to be a superpower at the expense of our people.

I agree with you the culprits are at Westminster, but they are successive governments of all colours, your not seriously suggesting that Scotland prospered anymore under Blair's government from 1998 (let's be honest they were more right wing than Majors government) through to Browns till 2010, and as wee davy has mentioned they do have the power to overturn decisions made by the Scottish Government elected by the people of Scotland.

No the people who can and say they will revoke our hard earned benefits are Scottish Labour, if they win the next Holyrood election have promised to implement the cuts as dictated by the Tory Westminster government, as can be seen herehttp://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/5920-no-more-something-for-nothing-as-lamont-attacks-universal-benefits

Scary.......Yes Scare tactics, unfortunately NO.
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JAGZ1876
post 9th Jan 2013, 08:04pm
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Sorry i can't get the link to work i will try again.

This is where we get to see the potters wheel laugh.gif If you are under forty you will have no idea what i mean tongue.gif
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JAGZ1876
post 9th Jan 2013, 08:06pm
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http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scott...versal-benefits
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