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> Chilcot: Iraq War Inquiry, To be held next year
TeeHeeHee
post 21st Nov 2009, 12:54am
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Well noted, Alex, that you have not queried the defining characteristics of a phoney Christian rolleyes.gif


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"Destiny is a good thing to accept when it's going your way. When it isn't, don't call it destiny; call it injustice, treachery, or simple bad luck.”
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Tommy Kennedy
post 21st Nov 2009, 01:31am
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QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 20th Nov 2009, 11:49pm) *
What are the defining characteristics of a 'religious fanatic', and how does Tony Blair demonstrate these?


I should think Alex there are different 'Characteristics/ Degrees' of a 'Religous fanatic' ie.: a child brainwashed with religion: Some a adult who 'Hears' a God talking to him

I have to say Alex, in Blair's case it is only my opinion that he is a religious fanatic.

Unlike Bush, he is a highly inteligient man, he would not have been fooled by the WMD bull (I'm not suggesting Bush was, he knew it was bull, suited the Neo-cons plans to 'accept it')

There were rumours of his possible conversion to Catholocism. I think his conversion was odd, to say the least, a man of his intellgience to change for C.O.E/ or C.O.S...something going on in his mind.Might simply be of course his wife's influence. Most 'converts' are VERY devout and certainly Catholocism is opposed to Islam - I think he maybe thought he was 'doing God's work' re-Iraq, an Islamic country
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TeeHeeHee
post 21st Nov 2009, 02:57am
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I had never given a thought to that view ... before now unsure.gif


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auldbutcher
post 21st Nov 2009, 09:12am
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food for thought there tommy ,if i wis pope ad be gettin worried, how does pope antonious ra 1st sound ohmy.gif tongue.gif frightnin intit .o those spondules in the papel bank like lead fillings tae ah magnet ,ah rest ma case.
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Alex MacPhee
post 21st Nov 2009, 10:16am
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QUOTE (Tommy Kennedy @ 21st Nov 2009, 01:29am) *
I should think Alex there are different 'Characteristics/ Degrees' of a 'Religous fanatic' ie.: a child brainwashed with religion:

Whenever I see someone make some observation, I ask myself "Why do you think that? Why do you believe that?" It's not unusual to see someone say something like this, that someone being taught religion is being "brainwashed". Most descriptions of 'brainwashing' I'm familiar with involve the concept of extreme mental coercion employed for forcible alteration of an individual's beliefs. This is certainly not what happens in schools up and down the land where religion is taught, and it is primarily in schools that children encounter religious instruction in any formal context. Teaching religion, therefore, is no more "brainwashing" than is teaching children grammar or chemistry or history.

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I have to say Alex, in Blair's case it is only my opinion that he is a religious fanatic.

This merely invites the question 'What is a religious fanatic?' Your answer may be different, but to me, a fanatic is not merely someone who is an enthusiast, but who is prepared to use menace and coercion in furtherance of his objectives. Religious fanaticism, to me, includes such practices as 'punishing' apostasy with violence. Tony Blair kept his religious beliefs to a very low profile, so low a profile that when he converted to Catholicism, it was major news. This is hardly the profile of a religious fanatic. Neither has he sought to impose his religious perspective on others. This hardly fits the profile of a religious fanatic. His engagement in the military action against Saddam Hussein had no religious component. This hardly fits the profile of a religious fanatic. He hasn't sought to proselytise others. This hardly fits the profile of a religious fanatic. It is very hard to see where the word 'fanatic' has a role to play here.

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Unlike Bush, he is a highly inteligient man, he would not have been fooled by the WMD bull (I'm not suggesting Bush was, he knew it was bull, suited the Neo-cons plans to 'accept it')

Virtually all intelligence agencies believed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. Indeed, it suited Saddam's militaristic brinkmanship to have his neighbours, not least Israel, believe he really had weapons of mass destruction, which is surely one solidly-grounded reason why he played such cat-and-mouse games in the public eye with the hapless Hans Blix and his team of weapons inspectors.

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There were rumours of his possible conversion to Catholocism. I think his conversion was odd, to say the least, a man of his intellgience to change for C.O.E/ or C.O.S...something going on in his mind.Might simply be of course his wife's influence.

Mr Blair's interest in Catholicism pre-dates his marriage to Cherie Booth in 1980.

QUOTE
think he maybe thought he was 'doing God's work' re-Iraq, an Islamic country

I can't see any rationale for that. No part of the was against Saddam Hussein involved any kind of religious objective.


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Tommy Kennedy
post 21st Nov 2009, 11:39am
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I say again, if the the Neo- cons believed Sadaam had WMDs no way would they have attacked Iraq - indeed if Iraq had a strong army they would not have attacked it!!!

U.S. well knew how weak, what a rag tag army Iraq had.

Being taught 'Of religions in the world' as pupils of non faith schools are in this country is NOT brainwashing.

A child being taught in a Faith school 'one religion'....that the religion being taught is the 'true' religion IS brainwashing

Give me the child from one to seven - teach him 'one religion' and you have a potential 'Fanatic'.
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auldbutcher
post 21st Nov 2009, 11:52am
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yep tommy the jesuits had a credo some thin along these lines but fer the life o me a canny spout it verbatim somethin aboot gie me the child ,etc etc . like i've said many a time if there had never been such a thing as religion then i reckon the human race might have been spared many wars,murders,bigotry and intolerance . or am i just bein gullible. huh.gif
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tomtscotland
post 21st Nov 2009, 12:23pm
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QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 21st Nov 2009, 10:14am) *
Virtually all intelligence agencies believed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.


To quote you again “Whenever I see someone make some observation, I ask myself "Why do you think that? Why do you believe that?"”

Your use of “believed” is naīve. Truth is the “weapons of mass destruction” was pre-war scare-mongering propaganda – and you, like most of the public, were conned into thinking there was substance to the assertions. The war was pre-determined. The dossier was dodgy and re-written to provide a premise. Scarlett, the intelligence agent who approved the dodgy dossier, took the flak in all the subsequent "white-wash" enquiries. A grateful Tony Blair rewarded Scarlett by appointing him head of MI6. No doubt Tony felt “guided by God” when he made that appointment.

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Alex MacPhee
post 21st Nov 2009, 12:43pm
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QUOTE (Tommy Kennedy @ 21st Nov 2009, 11:37am) *
I say again, if the the Neo- cons believed Sadaam had WMDs no way would they have attacked Iraq - indeed if Iraq had a strong army they would not have attacked it!!!

Do you think Iraq's army was stronger than Hitler's or Emperor Hirohito's?

The point is that the United Nations thought Saddam had prohibited weapons, not just the US. Otherwise, how do you explain the Security Council Resolutions instructing Saddam to admit weapons inspectors?

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A child being taught in a Faith school 'one religion'....that the religion being taught is the 'true' religion IS brainwashing

How can that be true? Brainwashing is a technique, not a belief set. Is anyone taught biology in such a way that it is not the 'true' biology? Can anyone be taught the theory of evolution in such a way that it is not the 'true' theory? Is teaching moral values as 'true' moral values likewise 'brainwashing'?

It looks to me that 'brainwashing' to you is teaching anything you don't believe in.




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Alex MacPhee
post 21st Nov 2009, 01:36pm
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QUOTE (tomtscotland @ 21st Nov 2009, 12:21pm) *
To quote you again “Whenever I see someone make some observation, I ask myself "Why do you think that? Why do you believe that?"”

Your use of “believed” is naīve.

Can you explain why?

QUOTE
Truth is the “weapons of mass destruction” was pre-war scare-mongering propaganda – and you, like most of the public, were conned into thinking there was substance to the assertions.

Can I take if from this that you were admitted to Saddam's weapons facilities to inspect them, and are able to pronounce with certainty on a matter that the United Nations Security Council could not?

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The war was pre-determined.

I don't see how. If Saddam had complied with the Security Council Resolutions, the imperative for military action against Saddam would have been lost.


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Alex MacPhee
post 21st Nov 2009, 01:43pm
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QUOTE (auldbutcher @ 21st Nov 2009, 11:50am) *
if there had never been such a thing as religion then i reckon the human race might have been spared many wars,murders,bigotry and intolerance . or am i just bein gullible.

If that were true you should be able to point to societies with no organised religion, that are therefore free of wars, murders, bigotry and intolerance. What examples can we look to?



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bilbo.s
post 21st Nov 2009, 02:36pm
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To be fair, Auldbutcher said that we might have been spared many wars etc.


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TeeHeeHee
post 21st Nov 2009, 02:47pm
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But still a good question, Bilbo.


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bilbo.s
post 21st Nov 2009, 03:00pm
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I think Alex might have made his point better by pointing to wars not caused by religion e.g. WWI & WWII. He seems more intent however on defending religion. Is he implying that religion does not cause any of these problems? I suppose I should address the question to him. Perhaps he could also provide a list of countries with no religion to afford us a fair comparison. I cannot think of any offhand or I may well have moved there. smile.gif


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Alex MacPhee
post 21st Nov 2009, 03:13pm
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QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 21st Nov 2009, 02:58pm) *
I think Alex might have made his point better by pointing to wars not caused by religion e.g. WWI & WWII. He seems more intent however in defending religion. Is he implying that religion does not cause any of these problems?

Like the good general, I do not fire all my rounds on the first volley.

I can think of many situations where religious adherences have given oxygen to the blue touch paper (even though a good fuse works in the absence of oxygen) ; however, the notion that religion causes conflict is challengeable. It is at least as arguable that most wars are fought over territory and resources, not religious imperatives. Men may march into battle under the banner 'For God and the King', but that no more makes it a religious war than marching to fife and drum makes it a musical war.

Perhaps one should consider that conflict and war and murder are primitive human attributes, not properties of religion, and that religion can be press-ganged into service just as all other sorts of motives and rationales in pursuit of fundamentally human objectives.


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