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> Glasgow To Fine Kids For Dropping Litter, Litter patrols outside schools for two weeks
Glasgow To Fine Kids for dropping Litter
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GG
post 17th Feb 2008, 08:47am
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As part of the city's ongoing 5million initiative to clean up the city, Clean Glasgow Litter Wardens will - from Monday - be able for the first time to issue under-16s on-the-spot fines if witnessed dropping litter. The controversial move by Glasgow City Council leader Steven Purcell has been made to combat the problem of the accumulation of vast amounts of litter outside secondary schools across the city, especially discarded junk food wrappers which are left during lunch breaks.
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The legality and effectiveness of the controversial move, announced on Friday, has though been quickly called into question as it emerged that he 50 fines issued would not be unenforceable under Scots law and any child facing a penalty could simply refuse to pay.

Mr Purcell said:
QUOTE
"We hope issuing fixed penalty notices to the minority of under-16s engaging in this type of antisocial behaviour means we can continue to make an impact to the cleanliness of our city."

The decision to fine under-16s for litter offences has been rarely used in Scotland even though councils have the right to impose fixed-penalty notices on anybody over eight, the age of criminal responsibility. The problem arises in enforcement of the penalty notice, as there is no means by which councils are able to make children pay a fine. The only recourse for Glasgow City Council when faced with an underage non-payer is to refer the child to the Scottish Children's Reporter Administration, the body responsible for bringing youngsters before a children's panel, for the original littering offence but not the non-payment of the fine.

SNP council opposition leader, John Mason, a supporter of Clean Glasgow, questioned the sense of imposing fines on children who can simply refuse to pay them, adding:
QUOTE
"We have got to be more thoughtful about how we do this."


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Java
post 17th Feb 2008, 09:05am
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I'm missing something here. What is the point of creating yet another ream of paperwork that results in nothing? Presumably it's unenforceable because in this instance under 16's cannot be held responsible for their actions. Fine the parents who have brought them up to think it's okay to drop litter.


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glasgow lass
post 17th Feb 2008, 12:56pm
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Jave I agree that these parents should be held responible, if the parents cant afford the fine then parent and child should be given some community work to be done together,,,can you imagine having to go to work with your mummy or daddy, not cool laugh.gif
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Melody
post 17th Feb 2008, 01:01pm
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Ah think it's priceless can you imagine chasing a nine year old round the streets to issue them with piece of paper telling them that they have to pay a fine for dropping litter? They'll just drop that piece of paper as well. They might as well because it won't mean anything being unenforceable as it is. laugh.gif Sorry but whit brain of Britain thought that wan up? laugh.gif Ye've got tae laugh or ye'd greet.

All this is our own fault we have created a monster in giving up on anything that means anything to people. As a society we don't respect anything except money and are forced into living lives that have no spiritual or moral content. We encourage children to graze rather than have family meals at the table and we allow incredible amounts of packaging on everything that we buy. There is a huge price to be paid for this lack of concern and we see it all around us. Problems usually have to be resolved at source, how can you make up for the lack of good parenting? No amount of resources can put that in place and in fact often makes matters worse. Good parenting is a life long commitment and is irreplaceable, people are growing up with no notion of citizenship and what it means. In fact dropping litter could be the least of our problems.
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glasgow lass
post 17th Feb 2008, 01:13pm
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Aye Melody, its hard tae catch up and be a good parent after being a neglectful one, the kids heed would be spinning,, whats this noo rules !,, its never too late to try and turn it around but it would be a lot of hard work and some parents are not willing to put the effort into their own kids.
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Melody
post 17th Feb 2008, 01:27pm
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In the photograph above we see two men paid to stop a wee lassie who hardly looks as though she's about to commit a horrendous crime. Why? Oh, and wait a minute not two minutes ago we were discussing cameras on buses, instead of employing one of those men to do a job of work as a conductor. Why? Because the wee lassie costs money and the man/woman on the bus who may be attacked is of no importance, or so it seems.
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Glaswegian
post 17th Feb 2008, 09:37pm
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Of course we all want to see our streets cleaner and we all want children to respect and appreciate our city's environment, however, is this really the proper way to go about this? Changing school kids' behaviour will take long-term education and exposure to adult role models who demonstrate by their own actions how children should behave. What about, for example, a high-profile campaign employing the 'talents' of highly-paid footballers and pop stars to start the ball rolling?

To attempt to criminalise our children -- when there are so many other more pressing issues, e.g. drug-taking, alcohol abuse, weapon carrying, gang violence, etc. -- for dropping a crisp packet is a very disturbing course of action and demonstrates clearly that poor Steven Purcell has completely lost the plot in dealing with young people.

Then there is the other issue about whether relatively untrained litter wardens should be interacting with children near schools, when there have already been a number of complaints about their behaviour, including this one from the Daily Record last November:

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A litter warden with a dirty mouth called a teenager an "a***hole" after he dropped a cellophane cigarette wrapper in the street.

But the crafty youngster used his mobile phone to record the four-letter rant.

Ben Walsh, 18, took his evidence straight to the bully's bosses.

And his quick thinking paid off yesterday when council bosses cancelled his 50 fine for dropping the litter in the first place.

Make-up salesman Ben claims the warden who swore at him in Glasgow city centre also grabbed his arm during the incident.

He said: "I admit I dropped a little piece of cellophane from my cigarettes, and that was wrong.

"But I had never heard of litter wardens before so I was terrified when these two guys appeared and told me not to move.

"I didn't know what to think. I asked them if they were police officers and they said no so I told them I was going to walk away.

"It was when they wouldn't let me that I started recording.

"One of them told me, 'You're not going anywhere' and held on to my arm. Then he said to me, 'You are an a***hole'.

"I couldn't believe what was happening. I just wanted to get away from them but they kept insulting me and insisting that I give them my name and address.

"Considering I had no idea who they were Ididn't feel I should have to tell them anything.

"I accept that dropping litter is wrong but I think anyone would be worried these days if two men who are not police stop you and start asking for all sorts of information.

"I'm not the most threatening character and I wonder if they would have treated everyone the same way they treated me."

Ben, of Lenzie near Glasgow, marched straight to Glasgow City Council's offices to complain about the incident lastmonth. He played his recording of the wardens to Environmental Control team leader John Boyd.

Now the council have decided to drop the fine. A spokeswoman said: "An internal investigation was carried out and the matter has been dealt with."

She refused to say whether the warden who insulted Ben had been disciplined.

Litter wardens started patrolling the streets of Glasgow in May as part of the city's 4million Clean Glasgow campaign.

They have the authority to issue 50 on-thespot fines to anyone caught dropping rubbish.

The 30-strong group wear body armour. Bosses say they have been trained by police in how to resolve conflicts.

'They told me not to move. I was terrified'


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glasgow lass
post 17th Feb 2008, 10:12pm
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Hi Glaswegian, wrong people in jobs all over the place however the kid was cunning enough to do what he did and new just exactly how to get his fine dropped, regardless of the foul mouthed warden I think that the fine should have stuck.
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petalpeeps
post 18th Feb 2008, 12:00am
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We have brought our children up to put their litter in the bin , if one cannot be found outside they bring it home to bin . I usually clean pockets of crisp bags , sweetie wrappers etc . I know i am not with them 24/7, but would like to think they stick by this rule . I don't think it is fair to fine kids for this , as if they have not been brought up to bin their rubbish , then it's not truly their fault . I have seen more adults throwing rubbish in the street than i have witnessed kids doing it . My children when younger witnessed this themselves , and asked me why do we have to use a bin when that man doesn't . I explained that he should have ,and that if they threw their rubbish in the street it would add to his and make twice as much mess , luckily they accepted my explanation . I also think more rubbish bins should be provided for public use , non flamable ones , as a lot of the plastic ones on bus stop poles got set on fire . Although in saying that there is a large double one close to where we live , it doesn't seem to get used much .
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Lion
post 16th Mar 2008, 10:46am
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I agree with Glasgow Lass - this little tacker knew what it was all about. Ok, you do not know me. I am 57 years old - have been doing Family Day Care for 11 years now - know how children "tick".
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Jim D
post 17th Mar 2008, 02:57pm
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If a child receives a "fixed penalty ticket" for littering and does not pay it? How do you take it forward? If it was an adult, you could take the offence to the courts. A young person under 16 is normally reported to the Childrens Panel. I may be wrong but I believe the Childrens Panel do not have any powers to deal with fixed penalty tickets. Its the same with the wearing of seatbelts. A child who is 14 or over is responsible for making sure they wear a seatbelt whilst travelling in a moving car. If they are caught committing the offence they cannot be issued with a fixed penalty ticket like an adult. they must be reported to the Childrens Panel. Such action requires a Police Officer, not a Blue Meany!


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*Adam*
post 1st Oct 2010, 09:59pm
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I AGREE WITH GLASWEIGAN AS THE BOY IN THE QUOTE WHO WAS SWORN AT IS MY PARTNER AND HE AGREED IT WAS WRONG T DROP LITTER BUT THEY SHOULDNT HAVE SPOKE TO HIM THE WAY THEY DID SO CAN YOU PLEASE STOP SAYING OH THIS IS HOW CHILDREN ARE THE FINE SHOULD HAVE STUCK? NO IT SHOULDNT.
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