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Glasgow Boards/Forums _ Other Discussions _ Scottish Independence

Posted by: wee davy 8th Jan 2013, 05:58pm

Dear Friends

I think a new Topic might do us all a world of good.

To kick off.
It is of course impossible to seperate your politics from such a discussion, without using your colours to form your argument. But it IS possible to refrain from allowing your beliefs to cloud the issue.

It is without a doubt, a MASSIVE decision - not just for Scotland - but for the whole of the UK.
One very contentious thing, is nuclear (having recently been discussed on other similar Topics).
But there are SO many more.

Brothers and Sisters, Mothers and Fathers, whole FAMILIES will be affected by it, on both sides of the divide.

The argument, in my humble opinion, hasn't even BEGUN yet.
Until those who OPPOSE independence give their reasoned arguments for remaining unified with a Westminster Government who certainly for MY lifetime, and historically, has always favoured the South of the 'UK', there is a real danger, apathy will win YET AGAIN.
Over 300 years ago, a significant, well to do lot, in Scotland, sold the country down the river. You now have a chance to reverse that. DEMOCRATICALLY.

What about family businesses in direct competion with each other - fighting for the same contract
???

My dear fellow GG'rs.

What is said on this forum, DOES have a certain amount of weight.
It is read by a whole HOARD of people (probably even those who are closer to the important and crucial decision).

I think we can do this, with the minimum of acrimony, bitterness, or even self beliefs.

There is MUCH to be discussed, before your vote, NEXT YEAR - NOW is the time for everyone to fight their corner. For all I know, to remain unified, may just be the right result. But would it be conceivable for Canada to become the 51st State?

Posted by: angel 8th Jan 2013, 07:03pm

Well Davy , whether or no you find this a satisfactory answer to the
yes vote in the Scottish referendum it does'nt matter to me .
I came to my decision after reading what I could on this
separation from the UK , reading both sides of the great divide.

I am still of the opinion that Scotland should not break up the United Kingdom but should have talks with Westminster regarding Devolution ,
whatever that would be .


On Yahoo answers , about this nonsense on Canada being the 51st state , is as follows .

More importantly, when will the USA join Canada? Canada has a far more superior financial infrastructure, economy, education system, health care system and democratic government than the USA. If Americans want to improve their standard of living, they should consider joining Canada.
I think so ! yes.gif yes.gif

PS , it's Puerto Rico who wishes to become the 51st state .

Posted by: wee davy 8th Jan 2013, 11:24pm

Hi angel
First of all, thanks a lot for responding.

I care not which way people's kilts fly on this one, too.
I'm looking for some honest to goodness discussion about the 'pro's' and the 'cons' of it all.
So,... after reading what you could, would you care to discuss the pro's for the status quo? (As you appear to have arrived at this conclusion).

Devolution was granted in 1997 - Scotland has had its own Parliament since 1999 I was being ironic, by the way, regarding the 51st State . I know Canada would never in a million years, give up its independence.

So how come its ok for you - and not for Scotland?

Best Regards,
wee davy

Posted by: angel 9th Jan 2013, 02:09am

So,... after reading what you could, would you care to discuss the pro's for the status quo? (As you appear to have arrived at this conclusion).

Davy , if I was thirty years or so younger , I would'nt hesitate for a
moment to discuss as to why I believe Scotland should not
separate from the UK . However , it seems to me that Scotand has
enough power through devolution , to govern the country within the
United Kingdom , although , that is not enough for those who are
determined to separate , do they have legitimate reasons for this
move , now this is were I am at a loss but by the same token their
gripes are not enough to break up the UK and I say , if your
government is worth it's salt , then start negotiating and talk the talk ,
find ways to make the union work don't look for ways to break it up .

Davy , I have actually said this before , but for those hell bent on
separation , especially on this board , it means nothing .
Regards , Pat.

Also Davy , lets not get sidetracked here by bringing Canada into this.
There is already enough to deal with .
The United Kingdom versus Scottish independence
on the Glasgow boards . dry.gif

Posted by: Dave Grieve 9th Jan 2013, 07:37am

There are numerous good reasons to stay with the Union.

How could Scotland survive without the House of Lords.

We surely dont have the savvy to run the country without the guidance of London Politicians.

We dont have enough money in the kitty to pay for the whole country to be on benifits

We need the London goverment to pay for those benifits.

The reason we need the London goverment to pay those benifits is because we are a nation of scroungers and drunks that need guidance from our southern neighbours.

North sea oil is going to run out some time this century and what will we do without the London Goverment to fall back on.

We need the annual hounours list to pretend to the nation that we are appreciated by the rest of the Union.

Scotland is incapable of running its own armed forces without the London goverment.

Scotland is to wee.

Scotland is to poor.

Scotland is to (fill in your own excuse)

Scotland needs the London goverment to take people of benifits when it gets itself into another war and calls our sons up to be used as cannon fodder

There must be many more reasons for staying in the Union but I'm sure all the Unionists on the board can list them.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Jan 2013, 11:44am

A big hand for the comedy stylings of Mr Dave Grieve....Dave's here twice a day until Friday laugh.gif


Seriously wee davy i applaud you for trying to set up a thread to get both sides of the debate actually discussing the issues that will affect us all.

If we can leave party political rivalries at the door and discuss what is best for Scotland, because regardless of who we vote for the most important thing in all this is what kind of Scotland would we like to leave behind for our children and their children.

For that reason i am nailing my colours to the independence mast, although before i give some of my reasons for doing so can i just say that i have an open mind on the subject and if anyone can convince me that staying under Westminster rule will be better for Scotland then i will change my mind.

As you have mentioned Trident wee davy can i just say that by not having that abomination on our doorstep the financial savings alone (let alone the health risks) plus the our contribution to send forces to fight in other lands would be around £1.5 Billion per year, just think of what a small country like Scotland could do with that one saving alone (NHS, schools, housing) there are many financial benefits (many have been discussed on here already but we can go into greater detail later) but there is more to this than finance, can anyone name a country that would give up it's independence to be better of financially?

Hi Angel, i read your post with interest and i can understand why you would have an emotional tie with the country you left behind, but can you remember the reason why you and your family left the UK?

If it was to find work, a financial decision to improve your lifestyle as most ex pats around that time did, then you surely cannot begrudge those still living here the right to do the same by making our own decisions, i know you may be unaware living in Canada but if we vote to retain the status quo then we will lose all the benefits we have worked hard to improve the lives of the people of Scotland like free prescriptions, free travel for our pensioners, no fee's for our students etc, this will all go if Labour win the next Holyrood election as they have promised to carry out the UK Tory governments swinging austerity cuts that have been resisted by the present Scottish government.

You may be unaware Angel but certain area's of Glasgow have introduced food banks for the poor, unbelievable isn't it, food banks in the 21st century Scotland, Europe's largest oil and gas producer, it makes me weep to think about how our money is wasted by a Westminster government who cares little for Scotland, so devolution is not enough we have to take control of all our affairs and put our people first.

I hope this is of some help to you Angel as to why their is a growing need for self determination, take care Angel and enjoy the rest of your day.

I hope we can have a good open debate wee davy, you've got the ball well and truly rolling.

Posted by: wee davy 9th Jan 2013, 12:24pm

Thanks for that Dave - I was beginning to think I would turn into a skellington , before getting some kind of respose to a question I've been asking consistently, for months.
(Plus it gave me a good laugh)
We can only hope, jagz.

Posted by: john.mcn 9th Jan 2013, 01:34pm


An independent Scotland wont need to spend hundreds of millions of £'s on bungs... sorry meant foreign aid!
In these times of financial hardships of many our own countrymen, i find it unbelievable that the foreign 'aid' budget' increases year on year(over £12.6B by 2014) while cuts are forced upon us.
If people after being taxed to the hilt find it in their hearts and wallets to fund charities that is their right, but we should look after our own first.

Posted by: Dylan 9th Jan 2013, 02:32pm

"You may be unaware Angel but certain area's of Glasgow have introduced food banks for the poor, unbelievable isn't it, food banks in the 21st century Scotland, Europe's largest oil and gas producer, it makes me weep to think about how our money is wasted by a Westminster government who cares little for Scotland, so devolution is not enough we have to take control of all our affairs and put our people first."

There are food banks all over Britain, not only Scotland. There are poor people all over Britain, not just Scotland. I care about all of them.

The culprits are the Coalition Wesminster Govt.( Labour are in opposition !!! )

Under Devolution The Scottish Govt. are responsible for " Health Care ".

The Westminster Parliament , whatever shade, have no power and could not remove Free Prescriptions.

Nor could they remove our Bus Passes.

Scare tactics .


Posted by: angel 9th Jan 2013, 02:40pm

thought I would add this to the pot .


2011 International Aid Donated (Official Development Assistance) COUNTRY For each $100 earned in the country, how much is donated in aid Aid as % of income How close the country is to reaching the 0.7% goal
Sweden 102 cents 1.02 Already reached goal
Norway 100 cents 1.00 Already reached goal
Luxembourg 99 cents 0.99 Already reached goal
Denmark 86 cents 0.86 Already reached goal
Netherlands 75 cents 0.75 Already reached goal
United Kingdom 56 cents 0.56 Scheduled to reach in 2013
Belgium 53 cents 0.53 Scheduled to reach in 2015
Finland 52 cents 0.52 Scheduled to reach in 2015
Ireland 52 cents 0.52 Scheduled to reach in 2015
France 46 cents 0.46 Scheduled to reach in 2015
Switzerland 46 cents 0.46 No schedule yet
Germany 40 cents 0.40 Scheduled to reach in 2015


Why the 0.7% Agreement?
The countries made this agreement because they realized that it was hard for each country on its own to give a consistent, minimum level of aid each year. Despite good intentions, a country would find that the aid it wanted to give was eaten away by competing political interests, concern about budget deficits, “problems at home,” “problems abroad,” and so on. So they agreed to a minimal, flat rate that each country could afford each year regardless of its current political or economic state.

The 0.7% figure may sound complicated, but it is actually quite simple. You take the total income earned by all the people in the country and then the government gives 0.7% (seven tenths of one percent) of that as aid. Or to look at it another way: for every $100 earned in the country, the country gives 70 cents in aid.

How are the countries doing?
As the chart above shows, five countries have already met the goal to give 0.7% of their income in international aid: Denmark, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, and Sweden.

In 2002 and 2003, five other countries set up a schedule to give 0.7%: Belgium, Ireland, Finland, France, and Spain.

In July 2004, the United Kingdom set up a schedule to give 0.7%.

In April 2005, Germany set up a schedule to give 0.7%.

In May 2005, Austria, Greece, Italy, and Portugal set up a schedule to give 0.7%.

It was not easy for many of the countries to set up a schedule to reach the 0.7% goal. In some cases, such as Britain and Germany, it took the combined effort of many thousands of citizens writing and petitioning their government to get it done.

It's about 22 countries in all who give international aid to poorer
countries .

Posted by: angel 9th Jan 2013, 02:51pm

Hi Dylan , I am aware of the food banks , and I do not think they are a bad thing , In many cases it means that there will be those who are less
fortunate , that will get food . cheers .

Posted by: wee davy 9th Jan 2013, 05:28pm

Your not quite right on the powers ALLOWED by Westminster, Dylan.

Legislation creating devolved parliaments or assemblies can be repealed or amended by central government in the same way as any statute

Cop yer whack fer that, Dylan

Although I would agree it would be highly unlikely to give with one hand, and take back with the other - thats the REAL relationship. Scotland is no more than a County Council within the UK, with a bit more power.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Jan 2013, 07:59pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 9th Jan 2013, 02:49pm) *
There are food banks all over Britain, not only Scotland. There are poor people all over Britain, not just Scotland. I care about all of them.

The culprits are the Coalition Wesminster Govt.( Labour are in opposition !!! )

Under Devolution The Scottish Govt. are responsible for " Health Care ".

The Westminster Parliament , whatever shade, have no power and could not remove Free Prescriptions.

Nor could they remove our Bus Passes.

Scare tactics .


First of all what a refreshing change to have a mature debate without resorting to name calling or insults, and that goes for both sides.

Now Dylan, you will probably be right about food banks in other parts of the UK, but surely that is something to be ashamed of, as i have said this is the 21st century not 19th century Dickensian Britain where the poor house was the norm, we should not be allowing this to happen, and while i take your point that is happening across the UK we the People of Scotland have a chance to change things for the better by voting for a fairer more socially aware Scottish parliament, where we will spend money on tackling poverty, building schools etc, and everything else that we should hold dear, putting society first before wasting £Trillions on WMDs or trying to be a superpower at the expense of our people.

I agree with you the culprits are at Westminster, but they are successive governments of all colours, your not seriously suggesting that Scotland prospered anymore under Blair's government from 1998 (let's be honest they were more right wing than Majors government) through to Browns till 2010, and as wee davy has mentioned they do have the power to overturn decisions made by the Scottish Government elected by the people of Scotland.

No the people who can and say they will revoke our hard earned benefits are Scottish Labour, if they win the next Holyrood election have promised to implement the cuts as dictated by the Tory Westminster government, as can be seen herehttp://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/5920-no-more-something-for-nothing-as-lamont-attacks-universal-benefits

Scary.......Yes Scare tactics, unfortunately NO.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Jan 2013, 08:04pm

Sorry i can't get the link to work i will try again.

This is where we get to see the potters wheel laugh.gif If you are under forty you will have no idea what i mean tongue.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Jan 2013, 08:06pm

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/5920-no-more-something-for-nothing-as-lamont-attacks-universal-benefits

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Jan 2013, 08:13pm

QUOTE (angel @ 9th Jan 2013, 03:08pm) *
Hi Dylan , I am aware of the food banks , and I do not think they are a bad thing , In many cases it means that there will be those who are less
fortunate , that will get food . cheers .


Hi Angel, do they have food banks in Canada?

If they do then i think the western world is in a bigger mess than even i imagined, what about other parts of the world, US, Australia, NZ, etc.

Come on Ex pats, are we all in the brown stuff?

Posted by: Dylan 9th Jan 2013, 08:37pm

I would believe the Dailt Mail before this " Fact Sheet "

Note Independence not Independent !!!

Posted by: john.mcn 9th Jan 2013, 08:58pm

QUOTE (angel @ 9th Jan 2013, 02:57pm) *
thought I would add this to the pot .


2011 International Aid Donated (Official Development Assistance) COUNTRY For each $100 earned in the country, how much is donated in aid Aid as % of income How close the country is to reaching the 0.7% goal *snip*



I couldn't care less which country spends what on foreign aid, if our politicians feel the desire to eradicate poverty or educate the uneducated then they should use that 0.7% and start within these borders. If they and others wish to help people abroad then simply pull out your own cheque book.

Posted by: angel 9th Jan 2013, 09:28pm

[Post deleted at member's request. GG]

Posted by: wee davy 9th Jan 2013, 09:38pm

Please - I put this Topic in for people to have rational discussion about the Independence Issue, of which Glasgow will play a crucial role - yay or nay

Long diatribes about pro's and con's of food banks are WAY off the mark.
(As are statisitics about 'feeding the world' angel)

I would politely ask those who wish to enter into the debate, to remain on topic.

wee davy

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Jan 2013, 10:08pm

Point taken, apologies, i started the food bank discussion only as to make a point as to why such a potentiality rich small country should be squandering £Billions on armaments when clearly the money could be put to better use on providing care for her people.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Jan 2013, 10:13pm

QUOTE (angel @ 9th Jan 2013, 09:45pm) *
What is the brown stuff ?


Really!..........Angel, if the brown stuff is number 2..............are you taking the number 1 out of me biggrin.gif

Posted by: Dave Grieve 10th Jan 2013, 02:21pm

Really is there any one/1/wan good reason to vote no in the referendum, people can shout all they like about staying within the Union but even one good reason would be better than the overwhelming silence that comes from any of the pro unionists on the board or off it.

Personally when this debate first surfaced on the board I was a fence sitter more concerned with going with the option that would provide more jobs for Scots people.
I couldn't give a monkeys if somebody in London ,Newcastle or Liverpool loses out on a job for the sake of the job coming to Scotland.

Ever since I can remember going back to the 50's any time companies had to downsize (lovely word that to describe a families heartache) it was ALWAYS at the expense of the branch in Scotland.

We have had over 300 years of one way traffic when it comes to affluence I say its time to take it back.

I wont have a vote but I do have an opinion.

Posted by: wee davy 10th Jan 2013, 02:35pm

The London Borough of Wandsworth granted detailed planning permission for Phase One of the Battersea Power Station development on 13 December 2012.


This followed the Autumn Statement on 5 December 2012, in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer confirmed the UK government’s support for a £1 billion loan and a guarantee to extend the Northern Line underground (for access to new development @ wee davy)


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2260042/Battersea-Power-Station-Inside-planned-penthouse-flats-cost-cool-6m-each.html#ixzz2HaGGZocH
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

An example of how your taxes are spent making London richer and richer - read full article.
Wonder who these companies are that are going to develop everything? Wonder if the profits will /how be paid? Wonder if the loan is a 999 year one?

Glasgow gets sweet FA for a half decent face lift for the public face of their City Centre

It pays to vote No?

Posted by: JAGZ1876 10th Jan 2013, 08:55pm

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/salmond-cleared-of-breaching-ministerial-code-in-eu-advice-row.1357818327

Posted by: JAGZ1876 10th Jan 2013, 08:57pm

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/salmond-cleared-of-breaching-ministerial-code-in-eu-advice-row.1357818327

With the FM being cleared of not breaching the ministerial code, i wonder if the better together NO campaigners will finally come up with examples of why we are better together or are they planning their next mud slinging campaign.

I doubt if we will hear any apologies for the "Bare faced liar" comments either.

Posted by: angel 11th Jan 2013, 12:32am

QUOTE (angel @ 9th Jan 2013, 08:45pm) *
[Post deleted at member's request. GG]



Thank you Martin. !

Posted by: JAGZ1876 11th Jan 2013, 06:55am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-20972218

I posted this up on one of the other independence threads wee davy, but i thought it would fit in with your non party politics, give good reasons for and against dissolving the union debate, i'm glad to see that this one has an air of civility about it, well done both sides.

Posted by: wee davy 13th Jan 2013, 12:06am

I would like to thank the members for respecting my request.

My old boss was a great one, for 'what ifs'.
It is indeed a very useful way of coming to reasoned conclusions.

What if Scotland DOES vote for Independence?
Have you thought about how it might affect your immediate circumstances?
(I'm addressing the resident Glaswegians of course)
Do you think things will change in the short term?
If so, ... HOW?
How do you feel things might change, in the longer term?
Or don't you really give a fig? (If so,... your on the wrong thread)

Posted by: Dave Grieve 13th Jan 2013, 05:59am

Independence seems to be a done deal as far as Blackberry are concerened I was downloading a new App for my phone and had to put in the country I am in, while scrolling down looking for South Africa I found Scotland listed, they have never been listed seperately before always as part of the UK.
The UK is still listed.
smile.gif

Posted by: serabash 13th Jan 2013, 03:23pm

well that's a positive thumbup.gif

Posted by: wee davy 13th Jan 2013, 03:48pm

QUOTE
Scottish Secretary Michael Moore insists the UK government would not enter into negotiations over the terms of Scottish independence before the 2014 referendum.

Writing in the Scotland on Sunday newspaper, he revealed that the government at Westminster plans to publish a series of papers over the coming months that will look at Scotland's current position, and the choices it would face if the country voted to leave the UK.


Then theres the NOT SO POSITIVE.
In fact, there's the downright refusal of the UK government to enter into any sort of meaningful discussion, preceding next years vote.
Shameful, arrogant, and downright belittling.

Posted by: Melody 13th Jan 2013, 03:54pm

Well Davy what would you expect? Ye know they canny come out of character sure.

Posted by: wee davy 13th Jan 2013, 04:18pm

So childish, Melody.
Its like 'this OOR baw and ye's are no playin' wi it'

Oh well,... if the Westminster politicians are not going to play, this might just (yet again) be another disastrous opening gambit by the NO team. Do they not realise Scotland MIGHT just vote for Independence next year?

Its almost an Empire attitude.

Posted by: serabash 13th Jan 2013, 06:31pm

I think they are probably doing more for the yes cause with this attitude.

Posted by: wee davy 13th Jan 2013, 06:41pm

Its already beginning to smell like 'all we promised you was a vote - we didn't say' we will abide by the Scottish People's wishes''.

How can such an important decision of this magnitude, not be discussed?
(Before the event) (Unless you know the outcome)

Posted by: Dylan 13th Jan 2013, 06:49pm

We know the outcome.!!

Posted by: wee davy 13th Jan 2013, 07:07pm

Aye - like Maggie Thatcher did, when she introduced a poll tax that some poor sod lost his head fer, 600 years before (she forgot to check history)

Posted by: bilbo.s 13th Jan 2013, 07:09pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 13th Jan 2013, 08:06pm) *
We know the outcome.!!



Is that "We" as in "We are the peepul" ?

Posted by: Isobel 13th Jan 2013, 07:17pm

I just hope and pray that the people ALL turn out and vote.

Posted by: bilbo.s 14th Jan 2013, 08:37am

Interesting views from an Australian expat in the Herald:-

There is no doubt there are complex issues involved in deciding what to vote in the referendum. I find it amazing however, that the Scots, alone, do not have the confidence to vote to rule themselves. I know of no other people in the world that have knocked back the chance of self-rule, where your own parliament makes your decisions.
It is not as if the people in these islands are going to throw up Berlin-type walls between themselves. There will be free population movement accross British and Irish borders as there is now. Westminster makes laws with an eye to the majority of the population as that is where the votes are and they want re-elected. The majority of the population happens to be in England (over 80%), and in particular, the south-east of England. Hence the huge public spending in this area.
If Scotland doesn't vote for independence, they will have Tory governments, so voting for your own parliament with full powers makes sense.
No country that has become independent has asked for a return to their previous situation. They got on with it and prospered. Look at the USA, Singapore, Malaysia, Estonia and closer to home, Norway. In 1905, over 99% of Norwegians voted to break the union with Sweden, and now their standard of living is away beyond Scotland, and they have fewer resources.
I don't know why Scots have such a lack of confidence in themselves to goit alone, because as a people, they are high achievers. Perhaps they get worn down with indecision because of the innuendo and untruths thrown at them. Loss of 19,000 jobs in Faslane being the daddy of them all. Then, there is the surpression of the truth. eg Told thirty years ago the oil wouldn't last long. It goes on and on.
My goodness Dr Goebbels could have honed his skills if he were alive today.

Posted by: john.mcn 14th Jan 2013, 09:58am



But the oil is running out..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-21003704

'Oil and gas 'jobs boom' forecast for North Sea'

Posted by: tamhickey 14th Jan 2013, 09:59am

I have yet to hear anyone make a positive case for maintaining the Union. All I seem to see are scare stories and "what if" arguments. In my opinion, the Labour Party in Scotland would be freed from the constraints of Westminster should we vote for Independence and become more attuned to the needs of the populace. My worry is that it may be staffed by the kind of people who currently run Glasgow City Council. To me, the No campaign has to show me good reasons to stay within the Union and they haven't done so at all so far. We ought to stay in this Union to help the South of England and the City of London with our taxes, oil and gas revenue, whisky, fishing, tourism etc.
Surely with all we have going for us, we could do so Independently? As for cross border trading, I see no problem with this continuing with our English neighbours. We already trade worldwide so it's not going to change anytime soon.
Nuclear weapons on the Clyde are just not acceptable to Glaswegians or Scots from elsewhere in the country. This country has contributed billions over the years to the USA for this fallacy of fools, yet the USA are the ones who not only construct and ship them, but control their use. I for one do not accept that we need WMD's on our doorstep, especially as they will never be used.
The Tories have just implemented horrible beneifit changes to the poorest and most vulnerable in society. Should we in Scotland stand for the same? We need better. We need Independence.

Posted by: wee davy 14th Jan 2013, 10:21am

QUOTE (Isobel @ 13th Jan 2013, 07:34pm) *
I just hope and pray that the people ALL turn out and vote.


I just hope ALL Glaswegians who normally make the effort, do not sleep walk, as they so often do, to the polling stations. If they really consider the issues, carefully, the FULL implications of their decision, then I believe they will make the right call.
Generation after generation has voted loyally, for' the working man', traditionally. For what?
Has that loyallty EVER been rewarded?
By voting for Independence, I believe they may eventually achieve what they've always wanted and hoped for.
Jobs, investment, and above all, a CHANCE to achieve those things.

Whit dae Glaswegians think of the 'ye kin hiv yer vote - but were no talking tae ye aboot it, until were ready!' If I know Glaswegians, the one thing they do NOT like, is being IGNORED. The/Cam Glegg consortium, are relying upon Glasgow to 'pull through' for them.
In fact, the RED half of Westminster are assuming upon having nothing to do (AGAIN) after THE VOTE (for OR against).
At least the GOVERNMENT of the UK, on the day, will have NO CHOICE but to respond.

Posted by: Melody 14th Jan 2013, 02:04pm

We should tell them that no way do we want Independence and then they'll force it on us. laugh.gif

Only by being Independent will we in Scotland get the government we vote for.

Posted by: DavidT 14th Jan 2013, 11:20pm

When Scotland gains independence from the UK just think of the jobs that will be created throughout the British Isles as companies and Government departments (in both of the newly formed countries) will have to change headed papers, etc. Printers will be working flat out. Sign makers, van livery designers, stone masons will have to take on extra staff to cope with demand. Recycle plants will struggle to cope with the extra pressure put on them by dealing with the old UK stock. This may all be my rose tinted dream, but I am looking forward to owning one of these...

Posted by: bilbo.s 15th Jan 2013, 08:32am

During the last month or so I have had conversations with family, friends and acquaintances of Spanish, Danish, German, Norwegian, French and even English nationalities. Without exception they expressed amazement that some Scottish people were against independence. There is clearly something peculiar about the Scottish psyche.

Posted by: wee davy 15th Jan 2013, 09:06am

They've got so used to being the nodding dog - they've yet to realise the heid is stuck!

Posted by: serabash 15th Jan 2013, 09:59am

canny come quick enough for me.

Posted by: Dylan 15th Jan 2013, 12:47pm

I have spoken to 47 different Natationalities, in their own language BTW and they all said they had also spoken to a different 47 and every last one of them can not understand why some Thistle Munchers would want to break up The UK .

I told them that the fishul SNP response is that we are all Nodding Dogs. Good eh !!

Melody and Serabash are only voting YES because Alex Salmond is so handsome and sexy. What a man, what a world leader he will make. Mel Gibson has been approached if Alex looses his teeth.
Now that is planning and strategy .

If Bilbo can supply the names of people he has spoken to I will do likewise. Unless of course he is making it up.

Good tactic, up there with " I was undecided, so was my wife but now we both want Independence ".

Posted by: Dylan 15th Jan 2013, 12:55pm

QUOTE (DavidT @ 14th Jan 2013, 11:37pm) *
When Scotland gains independence from the UK just think of the jobs that will be created throughout the British Isles as companies and Government departments (in both of the newly formed countries) will have to change headed papers, etc. Printers will be working flat out. Sign makers, van livery designers, stone masons will have to take on extra staff to cope with demand. Recycle plants will struggle to cope with the extra pressure put on them by dealing with the old UK stock. This may all be my rose tinted dream, but I am looking forward to owning one of these...



Hi David,

Why would a Scottish Passport have Gaelic writing on it. ?

Less than 2% of Scots have some Gaelic and they mostly live in Highland , Argyle and Bute.

More people speak Urdu ??

tongue.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 15th Jan 2013, 01:12pm

Usual load of "humour" from the Scheissmeister. What a pathetically absurd post from Dylan, but no one expects otherwise.

Posted by: Dylan 15th Jan 2013, 01:47pm

Naw it's no !

Posted by: bilbo.s 15th Jan 2013, 01:58pm

And here wis me thinkin´ye were an aficionado of Oscar Wilde. sad.gif

Posted by: wee davy 15th Jan 2013, 02:00pm

Youve been taking in too many Panto's this Festive Season, Dylsm

Posted by: JAGZ1876 15th Jan 2013, 02:01pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 15th Jan 2013, 01:04pm) *
If Bilbo can supply the names of people he has spoken to I will do likewise.

Good tactic, up there with " I was undecided, so was my wife but now we both want Independence ".


No you can't, it's just another one of your fabrications.

Are you saying that none of the undecided's (Don't knows) won't decide to vote YES?

Posted by: DavidT 15th Jan 2013, 02:07pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 15th Jan 2013, 01:12pm) *
Hi David,

Why would a Scottish Passport have Gaelic writing on it. ?

Less than 2% of Scots have some Gaelic and they mostly live in Highland , Argyle and Bute.

More people speak Urdu ??

tongue.gif

Hi Dylan..in short...I dunno. What I do know is if it's written in Arabic or Glaswegian gang slang or finest Morningside...I want one.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 15th Jan 2013, 02:14pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 15th Jan 2013, 01:12pm) *
Hi David,

Why would a Scottish Passport have Gaelic writing on it. ?


Glasgow railway stations have their Gaelic names written underneath their English names, so why not the passport.

Posted by: Dylan 15th Jan 2013, 02:16pm

WHY ???

Posted by: serabash 15th Jan 2013, 03:05pm

love your bit of humour dylan biggrin.gif but as I have said before you don't have to like alex salmond to want independence. you don't even need to want the snp to rule scotland to want independence. I just want the chance to go it on our own .

Posted by: Dylan 15th Jan 2013, 03:19pm

Why thank you Serabash.

I know you do smile.gif

Posted by: wee davy 15th Jan 2013, 05:41pm



Just in case your mulling things over

Posted by: Dylan 15th Jan 2013, 07:04pm

Fair unbiased information .?

Posted by: wee davy 15th Jan 2013, 07:30pm

Yup.
The truth can be fairly powerful, however.

Posted by: Dylan 17th Jan 2013, 10:25am

Alex Salmond is to meet the head of Quebec's separatist party, who is planning a third referendum since 1980.

Critics fear that Quebec Premier Pauline Marios wants a " Neverendum ", a continuing series of referendums.

Critics of Salmond fear he may copy that tactic if they lose the vote next year.

I assume this would depend if the SNP having lost the vote would be re-elected as the Scottish Govt. ?

We would then have these " Debates " infinitum. !

Posted by: john.mcn 17th Jan 2013, 12:47pm

The premiere of Quebec is visiting Scotland as part of a European tour, should Salmond not meet her just because she is also the leader of Parti Quebecois ?

BTW the Daily Record spelled her name wrong, it's Marois not Marios, methinks they're playing their Nintendos too much.

How many referendums on an issue should be allowed?
I and i'm sure many others would like a say on the EU, i was too young to vote on the only one we had. It would be wrong to consign something to the bin just because 1 generation didn't like it, if a party stands on a referendum issue and wins then they have a mandate to hold one, if thats every 5 years then so be it.

Posted by: Judah 20th Jan 2013, 08:50am

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 17th Jan 2013, 01:04pm) *
The premiere of Quebec is visiting Scotland as part of a European tour, should Salmond not meet her just because she is also the leader of Parti Quebecois ? ....

The patri Qubecois is a racist as well as separatist party. After the failure of their last referendum, they blamed the First Nation tribes of western Canada for their failure to separate from that great country. Had they achieved their goal only French would have remained as the only language taught in schools. The rights of indigenous Canadians would have ceased to exist as they are not considered French or Francophone. As Scotland existed as a country for 700 years before the advent of union, the situation between the two countries has little parallel. For a Scottish politician to seek the advice from such a small minded racist entity does their cause no credit.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 20th Jan 2013, 01:22pm

I thought i'd post this on your thread wee davy as another positive for the YES campaign.

As a former advisor to Madeleine Albright and expert on International law Professor David Scheffer say's an independent Scotland and England would be joint successor states to the EU.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/scotland-will-stay-in-eu-says-top-lawyer.19963361?utm_source=headlines&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email%2Balert

Perhaps some of the Tory led No campaigners who have been claiming Scotland would be kicked out of the EU would like to respond?

Posted by: lindamcf 20th Jan 2013, 02:49pm

Hello All,
Ive voted SNP all my life for one reason.
I couldn't stand Labours arrogant assumption that the Scottish people would always vote for them and that they could do no wrong on our eyes and therefore they could do what they liked.
I cant see one good valid reason for staying in the Union, but on the other hand i cant see one good valid reason for leaving either.
If we wanted to be truly independent WHY would we want to stay in the EU.
As an oil and whiskey(amongst other things) producing country you would think that we would be able to negotiate trade with other countries without the money guzzler that the EU has become.
I see it as just changing one master for another.
I will vote when the time comes, but just now i still don't know where my X will go,
Linda

Posted by: Mathieson 20th Jan 2013, 04:33pm

QUOTE (lindamcf @ 20th Jan 2013, 04:06pm) *
As an oil and whiskey(amongst other things) producing country



Since when, Linda? ohmy.gif





biggrin.gif

Posted by: wee davy 20th Jan 2013, 04:47pm

Hello lindamcf

The EU is a bit of a sideshow.
Although a significant one, but think on.
Fact
The UK, England, or any other member will NOT be leaving the EU, after your independence vote.
Your years of support for the SNP, I'm sure wasn't just dependant upon a Scotland, 'on its own', but a Scotland free of the Westminster monopoly of important decisions with regards Scottish interests.
Westminster/London PRIORITIES, lie South of the Watford Gap.
Living in the North of East England, I can assure you of that.

Regards,
wee davy

Posted by: JAGZ1876 20th Jan 2013, 04:53pm

QUOTE (lindamcf @ 20th Jan 2013, 03:06pm) *
Hello All,
Ive voted SNP all my life for one reason.
I couldn't stand Labours arrogant assumption that the Scottish people would always vote for them and that they could do no wrong on our eyes and therefore they could do what they liked.
I cant see one good valid reason for staying in the Union, but on the other hand i cant see one good valid reason for leaving either.
If we wanted to be truly independent WHY would we want to stay in the EU.
As an oil and whiskey(amongst other things) producing country you would think that we would be able to negotiate trade with other countries without the money guzzler that the EU has become.
I see it as just changing one master for another.
I will vote when the time comes, but just now i still don't know where my X will go,
Linda


Hi Linda, i would have thought that someone who has voted SNP all their life would have had at least one good reason for voting YES, however if you look through the other independence threads on GG you will find many good reasons for the people of Scotland to vote YES next year.

As for the EU issue, i am no great fan of the EU either, but the question of EU membership is always raised by the unionists as a way of trying to scare undecided voters that somehow an independent Scotland would become a pariah on the World stage, a lot of issues regarding independence don't need to be discussed before the referendum but are thrown out by the NO brigade just to muddy the waters and confuse the independence issue.

As you have already said of our oil and whisky among the many other home produced industries, will ensure the World beats a path to our door to purchase our second to none produce, so we would survive even without the EU, and being accountable to the people of Scotland any Scottish government would have to listen to the people if we decided to have a referendum on staying or leaving the EU or if we want a referendum on the monarchy or any other issue that can be decided after we are an independent nation again.

And i don't think many of the No campaigners would agree with you as you see us as swapping one master for another, as they will remind you we are equal partners in an equal union.

Aren't we?

Posted by: JAGZ1876 20th Jan 2013, 04:58pm

QUOTE (Mathieson @ 20th Jan 2013, 04:50pm) *
Since when, Linda? ohmy.gif





biggrin.gif


I didn't want to point that out tongue.gif

Posted by: lindamcf 20th Jan 2013, 05:19pm

Hi wee Davy,
I know and agree with what your saying but it still gets oan ma goat that the SNP are still willing to hand our independence to Brussels


Hi Mathieson biggrin.gif to you too tongue.gif


Hi Jagz,
do you honestly think that if the people want a referendum on the EU that whoever is in control at Holyrood will let us have one. We've been shafted (politest word i could think of) for years by the self serving political classes, independence wont change that fact





Posted by: lindamcf 20th Jan 2013, 05:20pm

sorry mathison the wee faces should be the other way round

Posted by: wee davy 20th Jan 2013, 05:34pm

Ah,... I see your point. (DOH).
You feel w'ed only be ditching ONE master, whilst the EU Behemoth still runs the show?.
This is however, clearly not true. For as we see, Westminster are currently suggesting to the EU, that 'enough is enough'. There would (as jagz has pointed out) be EVERY attempt to extracate Scotland from the European Chains (which Edward Heath firmly wrapped around us, and a successive incompetent toerags have perpetuated, since).
Make no mistake - Brussels are worried about the consequences of their hungriness to seize FULL control of Europe. And the independence question is very much part of that concern.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/20/scottish-independence-becoming-only-option
this may help your quandry, linda

Posted by: JAGZ1876 20th Jan 2013, 05:58pm

This in today's Guardian from Arch unionist Kevin McKenna who seems to be coming around to the idea of dissolving of the union when he writes of fellow unionist lack of an argument for the union (see, it's not just the unionists on GG that can't put up argument to retain it wee davy) when he say's.

"The champions of the union these days have curiously little to say that is positive about their cherished political Nirvana beyond the Queen, some shared former glories and a nebulous stability."

And this is my favourite part (does it remind you of anyone)

"When their anti nationalist invective outweighs their pro-union adulation you realise that they are not convinced either."

I never thought i would find myself nodding in agreement to one of Mr McKenna's columns, here's hoping he's the first of many...................

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/20/scottish-independence-becoming-only-option.

Sorry but i can't seem to get the link up.

Posted by: wee davy 20th Jan 2013, 06:01pm

were in danger of catching linda in a pincer movement, jagz lol

Posted by: JAGZ1876 20th Jan 2013, 06:05pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 20th Jan 2013, 06:18pm) *
were in danger of catching linda in a pincer movement, jagz lol



OOOOHHHH Matron. laugh.gif


I see you have the Guardian link up........What is it the say about great minds........ tongue.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 20th Jan 2013, 06:11pm

QUOTE (lindamcf @ 20th Jan 2013, 05:36pm) *
Hi Jagz,
do you honestly think that if the people want a referendum on the EU that whoever is in control at Holyrood will let us have one. We've been shafted (politest word i could think of) for years by the self serving political classes, independence wont change that fact


Yes i do Linda, unlike the Westminster parliament we can bring down any Scottish government who doesn't put Scotland and her people first and foremost.


Posted by: GG 20th Jan 2013, 06:28pm

An interesting read from Kevin McKenna in the Guardian today, including:

QUOTE
Scottish independence is fast becoming the only option

[...] The most common wet dream of every Bullingdon Tory is the national lottery. And what a jolly wheeze it is: get the poor to fund our biggest capital projects in exchange for a cruel fairy story. Now they've doubled the stake to £2, confident that the benefit cuts are increasing their customer base daily. In Glasgow, the boss of a council-run regeneration agency was given a £500k pay-off at a time when the Citizens Advice Bureau is reporting almost 1,000 calls a day from people whose families have been impoverished by the benefit cuts. Life for millions of people under the most rapacious and reactionary government in 150 years has diminished. To prevent the peasants revolting, however, they have been treated to exaggerated displays of unity euphoria such as the Olympics and assorted royal jubilees.

Labour in the UK long ago gave up any pretence at being the party of the marginalised and the vulnerable. Instead, it throws rotten fruit at the SNP when it says what Labour should be saying. Alex Salmond last week painted a handsome picture of what a new Scottish constitution following independence would look like. Every Scot, he said, would have a right to a home and free education. There will be no nuclear weapons. And we'll decide who we're fighting and who we're not. Until Blair, Mandelson, Balls and Miliband hijacked the party, that was what I thought Labour stood for. Now they simply boo and hiss with the Tories and say it can't be done. [...]

Full article here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/20/scottish-independence-becoming-only-option

Sorry, JAGZ1876, just noticed you put up the same story - fixed the link!

GG.

Posted by: john.mcn 20th Jan 2013, 07:25pm

LOL you guys are slow, i read that this morning biggrin.gif Probably the only good thing about facebook wink.gif

As regards to European union, as many will be aware i've argued that we are in it and will continue until we say so (imho) thats not to say i'm pro EU as it is, i much prefer a EU with free trade and none of the stupid laws or expenses. If Scotland does become independent i would hope that whoever wins in 2016 looks at all options, fully in but not budging on having a veto, or discussions with Norway and the other option of being part of the economic area but not being in the EU. Hopefully the main parties recognise the need for debate on this issue once we are 'free' and a vote will take place.

Posted by: lindamcf 20th Jan 2013, 09:09pm

Thanks for the input fellas,
I so hope your right JAGZ, i think that independence is just the first rung on the ladder towards self rule. Its just getting the powers that be to agree that's the problem, Linda

Posted by: JAGZ1876 20th Jan 2013, 09:18pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 20th Jan 2013, 07:42pm) *
LOL you guys are slow, i read that this morning biggrin.gif Probably the only good thing about facebook wink.gif



Some of us have lives John tongue.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 20th Jan 2013, 09:27pm

QUOTE (lindamcf @ 20th Jan 2013, 09:26pm) *
Thanks for the input fellas,
I so hope your right JAGZ, i think that independence is just the first rung on the ladder towards self rule. Its just getting the powers that be to agree that's the problem, Linda


No Linda, devolution was the first rung of the ladder towards self rule, independence is the end game.

And i'm sure the powers that be will come to an amicable agreement Linda.

Vote YES next year thumbup.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 28th Jan 2013, 04:47pm

Here a comment from David Cameron today about the new HS2 link between London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds in today's Guardian.



The prime minister, David Cameron, said: "Linking communities and businesses across the country and shrinking the distances between our greatest cities, high-speed rail is an engine for growth that will help to drive regional regeneration and invigorate our regional economies.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jan/28/hs2-high-speed-rail-links-unveiled

Whatever happened to the "One Nation" speeches from Ed Miliband and the vote NO campaigners, when "across the country" doesn't even reach halfway up the Nation, perhaps some of the Nae sayers, can explain, or am i right in saying we are only One Nation when it comes to helping to pay for their big train set.

Posted by: wee davy 28th Jan 2013, 05:37pm

You'll be there, in Birmingham, waving yer wee union jack, as it pulls into the station - saying ' thank you Mr Cameron for seeing all the 'regions' are regenerated and invigorated.
DING DONG
HS2 - will NOT be calling at Carlisle, Glasgow, Fort William, Inverness, Aberdeen, Kircaldy, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Darlington, or York.

Posted by: john.mcn 28th Jan 2013, 07:47pm



Go To England and tell people you're from up North, you'll get funny looks. You see, the people that like to tell us we are all British are wrong, there is the English then everyone else that tags along. We up here aren't northerners but Scots/Jocks/Sweatys. So dont be surprised when National isn't really national in the British sense, it never has been, you have National xxxx then you have a Scottish offshoot that isn't quite as important.

Millibland wants us to be all 'British', its handy for Labour votes because without them winning power in Westminster is all the more difficult, it's also handy to have a few thousands lads ready to die for the lies when the next incursion into foreign lands happens.


Posted by: wee davy 28th Jan 2013, 08:01pm

Kevin McKenna's column in the Guardian, is fast becoming Scotlands equivalent of Blitz Krieg, at the moment. He's doing a MUCH better job than Mr Fawkes lol

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jan/26/kevin-mckenna-scottish-independence

Posted by: wombat 28th Jan 2013, 08:09pm

thumbup.gif yir post sez it aw kermit yes.gif

Posted by: Jimmiboay 8th Feb 2013, 09:36am

I was never confident that Scotland would ever cut it's ties with the English lords of our small destiny. There are too many chattels being carried on the backs of Scots and their history to ever be independent. Is there a place for the Germanic royal succession ? Will Scots be lumbered with Loopy king Charlies and queen Camillias for the rest of eternity? And will we be confident in the defence of Scotland when the British army is no longer calling for the Scots to go and fight in Iraq or Afghanistan or Timbuktu to uphold our national pride. What industries will Scotland have left to send down south in the name of efficiency. And will the scattered migrants return en masse to rediscover the riches that the Westminster government has set in store to repay for that which has been sent packing for the greater prosperity of the "Kingdom" of Great England.

Keep in mind that the act of union abolished the name "Scotland" as Burns put it ("Fareweel e'in' tae oor Scotish name") and replaced it with "North Britain" .

Posted by: thurso01 9th Feb 2013, 12:10am

Does anyone here really think that Salmond wanting us to stay in the european Union will benefit us in Scotland?

Does anyone think that they (the E.U.) will have our best interests at heart.

Where is the Independence in Europe? We will be merely throwing off the shackles of English Rule only to be shackled to European Rule. Just cutting out the middleman.

It will not happen. Salmond is selling us down the river, he does not believe in independence or why does he want to shackle us to the E.U. ?

Germany has taken over Europe without firing a shot.

Posted by: tamhickey 9th Feb 2013, 10:15am

it's not up to Alex Salmond or the SNP as to whether or not we remain in the EU. It is a matter for the Scottish people to decide post independence. Not everyone who supports independence are followers of the SNP.

Posted by: wee davy 9th Feb 2013, 01:19pm

Its really quite frightening the numbers of people think that, tam.
Nevertheless, in fact independence supporters come from ALL walks of life
I watched a Pakistani (born) man animatedly tell us on TV how proud he was to be a Glaswegian, and how most certainly he was voting YES.
AND Pakistan would too, if the they had a vote LOL

Posted by: serabash 9th Feb 2013, 01:27pm

yes I agree it seems incredible that folk still believe that, though it might be because the no voters keep trying to scare folk with untruths about independence. just a thought.

Posted by: wee davy 9th Feb 2013, 01:39pm

After 700 years of subjugation (on and off), we shouldn't be.
But this is 2013. The world is a different place. London (announcement of Queen Mary II being docked at end of service, for the purposes of tourism etc) has wrung Scotland drier than the Gobi Desert.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Feb 2013, 03:17pm

QUOTE (thurso01 @ 9th Feb 2013, 12:27am) *
Does anyone here really think that Salmond wanting us to stay in the european Union will benefit us in Scotland?

Does anyone think that they (the E.U.) will have our best interests at heart.

Where is the Independence in Europe? We will be merely throwing off the shackles of English Rule only to be shackled to European Rule. Just cutting out the middleman.

It will not happen. Salmond is selling us down the river, he does not believe in independence or why does he want to shackle us to the E.U. ?

Germany has taken over Europe without firing a shot.


Welcome to GG thurso01, always nice to hear the opinions of new members regardless of their views.

Your views on remaining in the EU are valid, you are however falling into a trap perpetuated by the unionist NO campaign and media that somehow the independence campaign is a one man or even one party show as others have pointed out.

Being new to this forum i would recommend that you read back previous posts on the three independence threads on GG and you will find most of the points you have raised have been covered, like "throwing of the shackles of English rule only to be shackled to European rule", if that were true then we are already "shackled to European rule", the point of independence being that Scots will be putting the interests of Scotland first in the EU, unlike the status quo where the interests of Westminster are first and foremost.

As for your "Salmond is selling us down the river", the Scots were sold down the river 306 years ago and we have been paying for it not just in financial terms but in the blood of our brave young men from then until the present day, those are just two examples of what the EU will not be able to do to an independent Scotland, take our income from our resources and hand us back our pocket money, nor will they be ordering our defence forces into conflicts in other countries for the benefit of other States.

Once again welcome thurso01,

Posted by: DannyH 10th Feb 2013, 12:33am

Hello All

I have recently been involved in reseaching my family history, and as a result of that it made me start wondering if the Scots living in Scotland today who are direct decendants of the Scots who were living in Scotland at the time of the Union of the Crowns, are actually in a minority? In brief, the fate of Scotland will actually be decided by decendants of immigrants to Scotland since then?

In researching my family history, my great Grandparents were born and married in Ireland. They like hundreds of thousands of Irish came over and populatated the Central belt. Up North the 'real' Scots were being shipped off to Canada to make way for sheep. Since the 1950's the Asian population has grown steadily and thousands of them will be eligible to vote in the forthcoming Independence election. They have every right to do so, but with the passage of time, say 100 years from now, they might be the majority, just like the descendants of those who came over with my Grandparents .

Just a thought that crossed my mind.

Regards to All

Danny Harris

Posted by: Ossie 10th Feb 2013, 05:10am

QUOTE (serabash @ 9th Feb 2013, 01:44pm) *
yes I agree it seems incredible that folk still believe that, though it might be because the no voters keep trying to scare folk with untruths about independence. just a thought.



Might ?.... Their their whole case , ( or more precisely lack of one ) is based on it .


Ossie .

Posted by: Melody 10th Feb 2013, 11:20am

The more the UK protest about separation the more determined the yes vote should be. Ask yourself, ' If they think we are a bunch of work shy welfare dependant individuals up here why do they want to hang on to us?'

Posted by: JAGZ1876 10th Feb 2013, 11:47am

QUOTE (DannyH @ 10th Feb 2013, 12:50am) *
Hello All

I have recently been involved in reseaching my family history, and as a result of that it made me start wondering if the Scots living in Scotland today who are direct decendants of the Scots who were living in Scotland at the time of the Union of the Crowns, are actually in a minority? In brief, the fate of Scotland will actually be decided by decendants of immigrants to Scotland since then?

In researching my family history, my great Grandparents were born and married in Ireland. They like hundreds of thousands of Irish came over and populatated the Central belt. Up North the 'real' Scots were being shipped off to Canada to make way for sheep. Since the 1950's the Asian population has grown steadily and thousands of them will be eligible to vote in the forthcoming Independence election. They have every right to do so, but with the passage of time, say 100 years from now, they might be the majority, just like the descendants of those who came over with my Grandparents .

Just a thought that crossed my mind.

Regards to All

Danny Harris


I don't have any facts as i haven't researched the subject Danny, but i would have thought the majority of living Scots would be descended from Scots living around the time of the Union of the Crowns (1603) and i would dispute your claim that the majority of the population are of Irish decent.

I have traced both sides of my family tree back to the mid 1600's and my surname originates from the Central belt where West Lothian is now, but it matters not where anyone originally comes from, there could be someone living in Nigeria at this moment who will move here next week and will be eligible to vote, that's the way democracy works.

I doubt the if USA worry about their elections being decided by the descendants of immigrants laugh.gif

Posted by: thurso01 10th Feb 2013, 03:56pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 9th Feb 2013, 03:34pm) *
Welcome to GG thurso01, always nice to hear the opinions of new members regardless of their views.

Your views on remaining in the EU are valid, you are however falling into a trap perpetuated by the unionist NO campaign and media that somehow the independence campaign is a one man or even one party show as others have pointed out.

Being new to this forum i would recommend that you read back previous posts on the three independence threads on GG and you will find most of the points you have raised have been covered, like "throwing of the shackles of English rule only to be shackled to European rule", if that were true then we are already "shackled to European rule", the point of independence being that Scots will be putting the interests of Scotland first in the EU, unlike the status quo where the interests of Westminster are first and foremost.

As for your "Salmond is selling us down the river", the Scots were sold down the river 306 years ago and we have been paying for it not just in financial terms but in the blood of our brave young men from then until the present day, those are just two examples of what the EU will not be able to do to an independent Scotland, take our income from our resources and hand us back our pocket money, nor will they be ordering our defence forces into conflicts in other countries for the benefit of other States.

Once again welcome thurso01,



Thanks for your welcome JAGZ 1876. I am a yes voter all the way. I am still of the opinion that Salmond is selling us down the river by his wanting to be a member state of the E.U.

There is too much emphasis being placed on this issue and detracting from the main issue of Scottish Independence, thereby playing into the hands of the no vote.

Salmond should concentrate on first getting our (Scottish) Independence and Then put it to a vote if we the people of Scotland want to be Shacled to the E.U.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 10th Feb 2013, 04:49pm

Hi Thurso01, i'm delighted to hear that you are in the yes camp, and yes we are being forced to discuss too many issues being raised by the Tory led No campaign, but like it or lump it we are forced to address the issues raised.

I am not convinced an independent Scotland will benefit from being part of the EU either, but the SNP are just putting forward their view of how they will deal with the EU, other parties will have their own views post independence, and if one of them offer a referendum on withdrawing from the EU then that will be the time to weigh up the pros and cons of EU membership.

I'm sure the FM would love to concentrate on delivering Scottish self determination by dissolving the union, but if he doesn't address the red herrings and the scare stories thrown at him he is accused of dodging the issue's............Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

I look forward to reading your views on all the GG threads Thurso01.

Vote YES next year thumbup.gif

Posted by: wee davy 10th Feb 2013, 06:58pm

QUOTE
I have traced both sides of my family tree back to the mid 1600's and my surname originates from the Central belt where West Lothian is now
jagz

I have traced my mothers side, back to the 45 Rebellions, (as most living of Scottish descendency can do), then there's a bit of a gap - back to the 800's!!
(Which not many people can boast of)

Its so very important to realise that those who will be voting next year, WILL be the Scots of Today - but more crucially, the Scots of tomorrow.
You carry a great responsibility before you - and whatever the result is, I wish you Peace and Prosperity.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 10th Feb 2013, 07:39pm

What do you mean traced back to the 45 rebellion..........i heard you were Bonnie Prince Charlie's valet, wi yer wee powdered wig laugh.gif

Posted by: Dave Grieve 11th Feb 2013, 05:56am

I reckon anybody voting No should be entitled to a second ballot paper where the question should be 'Do you agree Scotland should change its name to North England'

Posted by: wee davy 11th Feb 2013, 08:51am

Scotlandshire - I have actually HEARD Americans USING this term!
Bless them.

Posted by: DavidT 11th Feb 2013, 10:32am

QUOTE (wee davy @ 11th Feb 2013, 09:08am) *
Scotlandshire - I have actually HEARD Americans USING this term!
Bless them.

laugh.gif I've got a feeling that a lot of folk on here get the news from BBC Scorlandshire. Och Aye The News...
http://www.bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk/

Posted by: JAGZ1876 11th Feb 2013, 11:06pm

QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 11th Feb 2013, 06:13am) *
I reckon anybody voting No should be entitled to a second ballot paper where the question should be 'Do you agree Scotland should change its name to North England'


Sadly Dave there are a few on here who will be voting NO who wouldn't care if we were called North England, who in the past and in the here and now are quite happy to turn a blind eye to things like "England won the war", "The Prime Minister of England", Anglo/French/German etc relations, or the most recent "the trains will travel from London to the North of the country (Leeds 260 Miles from South coast - 494 Miles to the North coast) these are the people who are quite happy to live in a minor English region, they will never change their minds no matter what facts are put in front of them, no matter how better of they would be they will never let go of their masters apron strings.

I'm only interested in convincing the fence sitters, the don't knows, who can be convinced of facts and reason, it can be done.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 11th Feb 2013, 11:07pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 11th Feb 2013, 09:08am) *
Scotlandshire - I have actually HEARD Americans USING this term!
Bless them.


I've actually HEARD the English USING this term yes.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 12th Feb 2013, 10:45am

Actually the Yanks were probably right, when you read this from yesterdays UK governments it seems Scotland ceased to exist and we were just incorporated into a larger England.

Taken from yesterdays document #35


as a matter of international law England continued, albeit under a new name and regardless of the position in domestic law, and was simply enlarged to incorporate Scotland

Perhaps some of our No campaigners could explain how this information was kept from us for over 300 years and do they still claim we live in an equal union?

Posted by: wee davy 12th Feb 2013, 10:56am

smile.gif
thought somebody else might spot that one

Wonder how come Lanark'shire' came about?

Posted by: wee davy 12th Feb 2013, 11:54am

All down to David I (often considered the 1st King of Alba), it would appear
(If you believe contemperary English historical reports)

Due to the fact he only assumed the title of Scottish King, under the protection of Henry I of England. (With whom he paid homage, until the death of his brother, Alexander I)
Henry was the first to utilise this commonly method of identifying counties.

SO YER' AWE ENGLISH SINCE 1124 LOL

Posted by: JAGZ1876 12th Feb 2013, 12:10pm

From today's Herald.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/breakaway-scotland-may-need-more-public-bodies.20191766?utm_source=headlines&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email%2Balert


How can the creation of thousands of jobs in Scotland be reported as a bad thing?

Posted by: wee davy 12th Feb 2013, 12:37pm

But you just dont get it, jagz - Westminster provide all these magnificent jobs down there - for SCOTLAND. So,... you should sit back and thank oh Great and Benevolent Britain, for saving you the trouble!

Posted by: Dave Grieve 12th Feb 2013, 01:17pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 12th Feb 2013, 01:27pm) *
From today's Herald.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/breakaway-scotland-may-need-more-public-bodies.20191766?utm_source=headlines&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email%2Balert


How can the creation of thousands of jobs in Scotland be reported as a bad thing?


When
the American colonies
Canada
Australia
New Zealand
Rhodesia
Kenya
South Africa
India

and countless other countries became independent or self governing they had to set up goverment departments that had previously been run for their benifit by Westminster.
The all succeeded despite having to go it alone and provide new jobs for their own people.

Just think, a Scottish company will be forced to print documents for a Scottish Goverment, a Scottish company will have to deliver those documents.
A Scottish Goverment will have to set up Scottish goverment offices staffed by Scots people living in Scotland.
The magnanimous Westminster goverment will no longer have to employ anybody in the London area to do anything in connection with Scotland, think of the money they will save on salaries, however it could be tempered by an increase in benifits to people living in the London area who were previously employed looking after those lazy Scots gits that dont want to work.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 12th Feb 2013, 01:33pm

Of course wee davy and Dave are both correct, i just don't understand how the Tory led No campaigners are trying to portray these things as negative, most of what they have highlighted in this first document acknowledges what the SNP have been saying for years, i just hope the other twelve documents they release will be as pro independence as this one.

If i didn't know better i would say that David Cameron really does want shot of us laugh.gif

How about it unionists, am i mistaken?

Posted by: wee davy 12th Feb 2013, 01:51pm

I'm really glad they've decided to take part though.
I have heard many's a Scot interviewed, asking 'what's it all about' - I just dont know enough about it.
Expressing their abject fear of the consequences of fully managing they're own affairs. Rightly so. Its a big step of faith.

Well, at long last, ALL will be revealed.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 12th Feb 2013, 05:09pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 12th Feb 2013, 02:08pm) *
I have heard many's a Scot interviewed, asking 'what's it all about' - I just dont know enough about it.


A lot of the people that i come across who ask this question whether personally or in online newspaper comments claim they don't know enough but ask the same "What about the EU/Currency/Defence/Lost shipyard jobs/ETC ETC, questions, no matter how many times you answer their questions their back the next week asking the self same questions.

Its a well known delaying tactic, convincing someone who is genuinely interested but undecided can be done, convincing someone who has already made their mind up is impossible.

Posted by: DannyH 13th Feb 2013, 12:24am

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 10th Feb 2013, 01:04pm) *
I don't have any facts as i haven't researched the subject Danny, but i would have thought the majority of living Scots would be descended from Scots living around the time of the Union of the Crowns (1603) and i would dispute your claim that the majority of the population are of Irish decent.

I have traced both sides of my family tree back to the mid 1600's and my surname originates from the Central belt where West Lothian is now, but it matters not where anyone originally comes from, there could be someone living in Nigeria at this moment who will move here next week and will be eligible to vote, that's the way democracy works.

I doubt the if USA worry about their elections being decided by the descendants of immigrants :lol:


Hello again my old friend, JAGZ1876

Thanks for responding to my input to this topic. I always get a well thought out non-vindictive reply from you to my posts, which I appreciate.

In retrospect I think I probably wote my contribution with a bit of 'tongue in cheek', but with a certain amount of real concern - more of that later.

Anyway, If you look at my first paragraph again, you will note that both sentences end with question marks. I was not making a definitive statement.

Regarding the descendents of the Irish population, I should have said that they represent a significant number of voters on this issue, residing in the Central belt of Scotland.

Regarding your comment that that anyone who is a resident of this country, no matter what their origin is, you will see that I said that the Asian population of this country are entitled to take part in this vote. I have no objection to that. All I am putting forward is the premis that in say 100, years from now, the Asian population could be the majority in Scotland. I may be wrong but I think that is what has happened in Fiji.

Regards to All

Danny Harris

Posted by: JAGZ1876 13th Feb 2013, 08:09am

Thanks for your kind words DannyH, its not difficult to debate a subject in a civil and courteous manner, especially with someone like yourself who asks reasonable intelligent questions and actually listens and digests the answers.

And don't worry about tongue in cheek questions, we love those on GG.

I accept that you were asking questions rather than a statement of fact.

I agree that Irish descendants do make an impact in all areas of politics (Glasgow City Council being one example) as to a lesser extent the Asian population who have representatives on both sides of this debate, and rightly so, as the outcome of next years referendum will have a huge impact on us all.

I don't know enough about Fiji to comment Danny and as i don't have a crystal ball i can't speculate on how Scotland will look in 100 years, but i do remember people making similar remarks about Irish descendants in the 60s/70s, those fears were groundless as will be the fears of Asians taking over the country with their Shania Twain law.

You take care Danny, and be careful if you go out in the snow.



Posted by: DannyH 13th Feb 2013, 11:56pm

Hello Again JAGZ1876,

It's the Auld yin back again!

Thanks for your courteous reply.

I am back again because there one or two wee points I missed out in my first response to your post #101.

You say that you doubt if the USA worry about their elections being decided by immigrants.
You obviously keep up to date with what is going on in the world, so you must have forgotten that at the recent Prersidential elections, in the USA, 46% of the voters were of Hispanic origin. The reason there was such a surge in the numbers of Hispanicis taking part in the elections, was that the rules were changed to allow the descendants of illegal Hispanic immigrants to vote. Many of the non-Hispanic American citizens are very worried!

Regarding Fiji, I obtained my information via Google. The Fijian Indians are direct descendants of the Indian labourers brought to Fiji by the British in the late 19th century until 1916. The Fijian government is in the control of the Fijian Indians.

I can't recall any problems with the Scottish desendants of Irish immigrants trying to take over Scotland. Was it descendants of the Roman Catholic Irish? I can't see the members of the Orange Order being involved in that!

Anyone who lived in the tenements of Garscube Road, between Queens Cross and New City Road, will tell you that most of the streets off Garscube Road had a high Irish population. Streets like Lyon Street which was given a memorial plaque to commemorate the fact that nearly every family lost relatives fighting on our behalf during World War I. Oakbank Street, Lilac Place, Caithness Street, etc
They were a mix of Protestants and Roman Catholics Irish descendants of the original immigrants. I lived there and can't recall any talks of breaking away from the UK.


Finally, since I have learned that I am a descendant of an Irish family, I won't feel comfortable singing "Oh Flower of Scotland" at International football matches, anymore because my family were peasants in Ireland when the brave Scots were fighting for their country.

Regards to All

Danny Harris

Posted by: JAGZ1876 14th Feb 2013, 06:07pm

Hi DannyH, the point i was making about the USA (rather poorly apparently) was that unless you are a Native American then you are of foreign descent.

I know you can't recall any problems of people of Irish descent trying to take over Scotland as it never happened, nor did i say that it did, i said that i could recall people predicting that it would happen just like you implied would happen in the future with the Asian population, it won't.

I was aware of the incredible sacrifice of the men of Lyon St,

Why won't you feel comfortable singing Flower of Scotland, a song that commemorates an important turning point in the 14th century battle for Scottish independence?

Posted by: john.mcn 14th Feb 2013, 07:08pm



Have you any links about the 46% of US voters being Hispanic? The figures i found were around 10%

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 15th Feb 2013, 02:45pm

After a long search, I can't find an appropriate topic to post this link ... so I'm shoving it in here. tongue.gif
The point I'm making will, or might, be made clear when you go past the article and look at the readers' comments after clicking on "Worst Rated".
Of course a lot of the comments might have been of the usual tongue in cheek variety - but who knows?

QUOTE
Independence for Scotland now! The NHS has enough problems on its plate without this bunch of lemmings clogging the queue with their clogged veins, it reminds me of the photos when Moscow got its first McDonalds... sad people!

- jon, southampton, 15/2/2013 12:25


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2279029/Edinburgh-traffic-chaos-Krispy-Kreme-doughnuts-opens-Hermiston-Gait.html#ixzz2KyqxJ8kH
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2279029/Edinburgh-traffic-chaos-Krispy-Kreme-doughnuts-opens-Hermiston-Gait.html

Posted by: serabash 15th Feb 2013, 02:56pm

dae ye think they don't like us doon there laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 15th Feb 2013, 03:35pm

Just looks like a pale imitation of Dunkin' Donuts, and the guy from Southampton needn't worry as "This bunch of lemmings with clogged veins" will not be putting anymore strain or adding to the problems of the English NHS as Scotland has its own independent NHS, while not perfect it's in far better health than it's English counterpart, and unlike theirs ours is not in danger of being privatised, unless of course the Tory led No Better Together campaigners win the referendum, in which case we have been promised at least a decade of austerity cuts.

I wonder why he didn't mention that the first person in the queue was English, or the fact that this company already has over 30 outlets in England?

Posted by: JAGZ1876 21st Feb 2013, 05:25pm

Another myth by the Tory led No Better Together campaign bites the dust.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/lord-malloch-brown-independent-scotland-will-be-welcomed-into-eu.1361449365

Posted by: JAGZ1876 23rd Feb 2013, 11:19am

Yet more bad news for the Tory led No Better Together Campaign.

One of their biggest arguments against an independent Scotland was that the cost of borrowing would shoot up as Scotland would not have a AAA rating and the only way to preserve a Triple A rating was to reject independence and stay within the protection of the UK's economy.

Well it looks like George Osborne is keeping his promise of decades of austerity as the UK looses it's Triple A rating.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/john-swinney-tory-economic-plans-utter-failure-1-2806893

Vote YES next year.

Posted by: DannyH 23rd Feb 2013, 11:01pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 14th Feb 2013, 08:25pm) *
Have you any links about the 46% of US voters being Hispanic? The figures i found were around 10%


Hello john.mcn

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you.

I have to be honest and say that I remember this information being given on a television programme after Obama was re-elected. I may have picked it up wrong. It could have been a reference to the States most densely populated by Hispanics. I will see if I can obtain the most up to date figures available to the public. I will get back to you.

Regards

Danny Harris


Posted by: farrochie 24th Feb 2013, 11:27am

I spoke to a couple of people recently and got interesting responses.

1. D is English, living in Scotland this past 10+ years, married to a Scot and with 2 children. We worked in the same company for a time and now meet up occasionally. Her immediate response to my question on independence was that she would be sent out the country. After a few minutes of deconstructing the anti-independence "overnight foreigners" argument (A. Darling), I said that all "new Scots" are welcome here. She said she wants her children to grow up here and wants this to be their country, voted for Blair's government but will never again vote Labour owing to Iraq. I believe D will now vote Yes.

2. A is a waiter and is from Nepal; has lived and worked in Scotland for 4 years. He had a great feeling of connection between the Gurkhas and the Scots. [As with many Asians, "Braveheart" was a favourite film.] A will be voting Yes as he believes London does not have the interests of Scotland.

My point is, we really need to speak to people and find out what their concerns are and try to answer them truthfully. We can't leave this to the political parties and their supporters.

Posted by: wee davy 24th Feb 2013, 11:42am

Bang on the button, farichie

Posted by: Alex Saville 24th Feb 2013, 02:36pm

Interesting, farrochie, that you use the phrase "New Scot 's are welcome here".
This is a phrase trotted out on a regular basis by the SNP who don't share the publics concerns about immigration.
If you mean 'New Scots' from the rest of the UK, most people would perhaps agree with that.
If you mean from overseas then I wonder perhaps if that is not the case.
I refer you to the 30th British Social Studies Attitudes Survey, published in 2012.
This survey is sponsored by a number of UK Government departments including the Dept. for Works & Pensions.

According to the latest report, 75% of the public want immigration reduced immediately. This is up from 63% in 1995.
The proportion who view the economic impact of immigrants negatively increased by 9% between 2002 and 2011, up from 43% to 52%.
Negative judgements about the Cultural Impact of migrants increased by 15% during the same period, from 33% to 48%.
48% think migration undermines Britain's Cultural Life.

The one paragraph that stands out is this one "IT IS CLEAR THAT THE PUBLIC PERCEPTION OF CONTEMPORARY MIGRATION FLOWS IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF POLICY MAKERS."

Although this survey is a 'British' one, it would be foolish to suggest, I believe, that these views are not held this side of the border.
Other than by politicians and the politically correct, of course.

You state "My point is, we really need to speak to people and find out what their concerns are and try to answer them truthfully. We can't leave this to the political parties and their supporters."
The problem we face here is that the politicians and the political parties are only too well aware of the publics views on matters such as immigration.
As far as they are concerned, they know better than the public.
Thats not going to change in an Independent Scotland.
What we'll get is more of the same. Not less.
Politicians cant deliver home's for all Scots, jobs for all Scots, etc. etc.
They claim more 'New Scots' will bring skills to Scotland for her benefit.
I believe we should be educating our own young people if we have a skills shortage in Scotland.
That, however, is not a view shared by the Politically Correct, nor, I'm sorry to say, the SNP..

Alex


Posted by: TeeHeeHee 24th Feb 2013, 03:02pm

QUOTE
... I believe we should be educating our own young people if we have a skills shortage in Scotland.

Germany, for obvious reasons, was more than happy (officially) to welcome the influx of skilled labour over the years since the war; especially in the '70s, but she soon after that came to learn that it was very important to create space for trainees from among it's own young people - even at the cost of subsidising their wages- if she was ever going to stand on her own feet again.
This has paid off in spades.

Posted by: wee davy 24th Feb 2013, 03:59pm

Hi Alex

Nice to see someone posting from a 'Better Together' perspective.
You are more scarcer than hens teeth.

I 'surveyed' your British survey crew - who recently carried out a dodgy poll at the end of last year - then issued it in the late January when the t's and i's were crossed (on the same day, as a matter of fact)

Your source material I do not doubt - is accurate for the UK as a whole.
What SCOTLAND thinks isn't known. This fool completely refutes your claims and assumptions, compiled for the UK PLC (Westminster, London)

QUOTE
Politicians cant deliver home's for all Scots, jobs for all Scots, etc. etc.
They claim more 'New Scots' will bring skills to Scotland for her benefit.
I believe we should be educating our own young people if we have a skills shortage in Scotland.


How do YOU know? Its never been tried before!

You talk about more of the same - well there's nothing surer than that if you vote NO next year.

PS Look forward to your million dollar answer to '
How would the deep South improve Scotlands 'lot' if they vote NO?

Posted by: JAGZ1876 24th Feb 2013, 04:16pm

QUOTE (farrochie @ 24th Feb 2013, 11:44am) *
I spoke to a couple of people recently and got interesting responses.

1. D is English, living in Scotland this past 10+ years, married to a Scot and with 2 children. We worked in the same company for a time and now meet up occasionally. Her immediate response to my question on independence was that she would be sent out the country. After a few minutes of deconstructing the anti-independence "overnight foreigners" argument (A. Darling), I said that all "new Scots" are welcome here. She said she wants her children to grow up here and wants this to be their country, voted for Blair's government but will never again vote Labour owing to Iraq. I believe D will now vote Yes.

2. A is a waiter and is from Nepal; has lived and worked in Scotland for 4 years. He had a great feeling of connection between the Gurkhas and the Scots. [As with many Asians, "Braveheart" was a favourite film.] A will be voting Yes as he believes London does not have the interests of Scotland.

My point is, we really need to speak to people and find out what their concerns are and try to answer them truthfully. We can't leave this to the political parties and their supporters.


I can't understand where your Ex work colleague got the idea that she would be "sent out the country" farrochie as many YES voters are English living in Scotland, perhaps if the Tory led No Better Together are spreading lies about repatriation then English members of the YES Scotland campaign should allay their fears by making a statement debunking the unionist lies, the Scottish Governments Mike Russell (Education) would be ideal for this task.

Many Asian's will be voting YES next year, indeed the "Asians for Independence" movement is growing larger by the day, although to be fair there are still some Asians who like other unionists prefer Scotland to be ruled by an unelected Tory Westminster government who place Scotland and her interests very low on their list of priorities.

The concerns of the population could be addressed if the MSM presented a fair and balanced approach to the debate by giving both sides of the arguments instead of reporting the negative NO campaigns scare story's and lies as facts whilst ignoring the YES campaign.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 24th Feb 2013, 04:56pm

QUOTE (Alex Saville @ 24th Feb 2013, 02:53pm) *
Interesting, farrochie, that you use the phrase "New Scot 's are welcome here".
This is a phrase trotted out on a regular basis by the SNP who don't share the publics concerns about immigration.


I believe we should be educating our own young people if we have a skills shortage in Scotland.
That, however, is not a view shared by the Politically Correct, nor, I'm sorry to say, the SNP..

Alex


Who made you spokesman for the great Scottish public Alex?

I think you will find an independent Scotland will be a welcoming place for people from elsewhere who want to work hard and add their skills to improving our country, you can quote all the British social studies attitude surveys you like, they are only going to give the views of the English dominant population, i think you will find the views of the people of Scotland on the EU and immigration very different.

There will be no place for xenophobia in an independent Scotland,

As for the SNP not "educating and giving our young people skills" Alex, i have lifted this from the SNP's own website.


Action on Youth Unemployment - We will provide support for 125,000 modern apprenticeships over the lifetime of the Parliament and a commitment that every 16-19 year old in Scotland not in work, part of a Modern Apprenticeship scheme or receiving education is offered a learning or training opportunity.

A little research goes a long way............

Posted by: Alex Saville 24th Feb 2013, 04:57pm

Davey, I see that you still find the need to be offensive when you deride others comments.
If you feel that the figures presented by an independent organisation with charitable status are questionable, thats your prerogative.
Please also note I do not speak from a 'Better Together' perspective.
I speak from the perspective of my own view and relate the information I have came across for the perusal of others.
They can agree or disagree at their leisure.
I, however, reserve my right in a democratic society to express my views.
Since I live in Springburn, Glasgow, and you live in Yorkshire, perhaps you are more aware of whats happening in Scotland than I am.
If you want debate, fine.
If you want to be offensive, I'll treat your remarks with the contempt they deserve!



Posted by: Alex Saville 24th Feb 2013, 05:37pm

JAG1876
So who made you the spokesman for the great Scottish public then?

That survey has been going for 30 years. Are you suggesting that that organisation has never polled in Scotland?
That Scots have never taken part?
Strange since they have an office here to do just that.
There will no nothing in Scotland if people like you get your way. The 'Thought Police' strive everyday to restrict what people think.
George Orwell got it right, he just got the year wrong!

Because people don't want unlimited immigration, want to restrict entry, and feel that the citizens of their country should come first, does not make them " Xenophobic"!
When people express an opinion other than the one you have does not make them Xenophobic, Racist, Homophobic or or anything else.
It makes the debate DEMOCRATIC.

I've read a number of your posts and you seem to be a staunch SNP supporter. Thats fine.
However, you'll have to accept that other people may not share your rigid views on the party.
I am not a member of any party, nor have I ever been. I am, however, a member of that Clan, the Scottish Working Man.

Whats on display on the SNP website is there for the benefit of fellow traveler's.
I think the problem with the SNP is that, like you, they thought that the massive result they received in 2011 was down to their policies.
I take the view (And I voted for them, by the way!) that the result was mainly because the opposition was poor, VERY POOR!
It will be interesting at the next election to see what that result will be.

I note also that you hide behind a non-de-plume. I have the courage of my convictions, therefore I use my own name!
As you will have noticed!





Posted by: wee davy 24th Feb 2013, 05:44pm

??? Offensive, Alex? Help me SERIOUSLY with that one, please.

Your 'independant organization' works for, and provides surveys for, UKPLC. You even state so yourself, 'This survey is sponsored by a number of UK Government departments including the Dept. for Works & Pensions'

They are also BASED (in Milton Keynes, I believe) down South.

Full House - yet another doesn't want to answer the big Q


I'd rather NOT know this statistic, thank you


I dont think it matters a monkeys, where I live - I'm a Scot - a proud one - and will also speak my mind.

PS your Scottish 'leg' has about 3/4 Scottish employees and probably outsource actual polls the Uni's. In England, its about a staff of about 90 with London weighted allowances. Gimme a break here.

Posted by: bilbo.s 24th Feb 2013, 05:48pm

If you want debate, fine.
If you want to be offensive, I'll treat your remarks with the contempt they deserve!


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 24th Feb 2013, 06:42pm

QUOTE (Alex Saville @ 24th Feb 2013, 05:54pm) *
That survey has been going for 30 years. Are you suggesting that that organisation has never polled in Scotland?
That Scots have never taken part?
Strange since they have an office here to do just that.
There will no nothing in Scotland if people like you get your way. The 'Thought Police' strive everyday to restrict what people think.
George Orwell got it right, he just got the year wrong!

Because people don't want unlimited immigration, want to restrict entry, and feel that the citizens of their country should come first, does not make them " Xenophobic"!
When people express an opinion other than the one you have does not make them Xenophobic

I've read a number of your posts and you seem to be a staunch SNP supporter. Thats fine.
However, you'll have to accept that other people may not share your rigid views on the party.
I am not a member of any party, nor have I ever been. I am, however, a member of that Clan, the Scottish Working Man.

Whats on display on the SNP website is there for the benefit of fellow traveler's.
I think the problem with the SNP is that, like you, they thought that the massive result they received in 2011 was down to their policies.
I take the view (And I voted for them, by the way!) that the result was mainly because the opposition was poor, VERY POOR!
It will be interesting at the next election to see what that result will be.

I note also that you hide behind a non-de-plume. I have the courage of my convictions, therefore I use my own name!
As you will have noticed!


Alex, any poll taken on a National (UK) level just like a general election will only reflect the views and wishes of the dominant English population, which is why no matter how we vote in Scotland we will only get the government elected by the English electorate.

You say that "people don't want unlimited immigration" but i don't recall any party advocating it, or do you mean that you don't want immigration full stop?

I'm a staunch supporter of independence Alex, the SNP and i don't see eye to on everything, they are only a vehicle to an end.

I do not hide behind a non-de-plume Alex, as you can see most people on GG use user names, if you want me to reveal my name i shall, but i can't see how this would change my or your view's?


Posted by: wee davy 24th Feb 2013, 07:19pm

Ah hide behind bamboo shoots and do handstands, occasionally

Posted by: farrochie 24th Feb 2013, 10:01pm

Thanks for the responses, folks.

I just wanted to tell these two stories because they are real people making up their minds about how to vote.

Alex, I'm happy to use the term "new Scots". Most of my ancestors went to Detroit, Michigan where they became new citizens of the USA, a country that prided itself in its welcome to people from other countries.

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

Posted by: wee davy 24th Feb 2013, 10:25pm

What an exquisitely beautiful piece

"The New Colossus" is a sonnet by Emma Lazarus (1849–87), written in 1883 and, in 1903, engraved on a bronze plaque and mounted inside the lower level of the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty.

Thank YOU farochie, for sharing it with us

Posted by: Abhrann 25th Feb 2013, 01:54am

QUOTE (farrochie @ 24th Feb 2013, 10:18pm) *
Thanks for the responses, folks.

I just wanted to tell these two stories because they are real people making up their minds about how to vote.

Alex, I'm happy to use the term "new Scots". Most of my ancestors went to Detroit, Michigan where they became new citizens of the USA, a country that prided itself in its welcome to people from other countries.

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

That is why the Irish " The wretched refuse of you teeming shore" left for there in their millions, they were not welcome in this xenophobic cabal of the united kingdom, nor its' offshoot of "North Britain".

Posted by: john.mcn 25th Feb 2013, 01:21pm

Scottish independence: Scotland able to keep pound

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/politics/scottish-independence-scotland-able-to-keep-pound-1-2808127

QUOTE
AN INDEPENDENT Scotland will be able to keep the pound, the UK government will argue next month – but only if Scottish ministers accept budget constraints set by London, it was reported last night.



Another backtrack? Anyway as The BoE is an independent institution outwith Westminster control how can they insist on controlling Scotlands budget ??

Posted by: JAGZ1876 25th Feb 2013, 03:59pm

QUOTE (Abhrann @ 25th Feb 2013, 02:11am) *
That is why the Irish " The wretched refuse of you teeming shore" left for there in their millions, they were not welcome in this xenophobic cabal of the united kingdom, nor its' offshoot of "North Britain".


Had you been as up to speed with Scottish history as you clearly are with Irish history then you would have been aware that the Highland clearances of the 18th and 19th century's had seen the population being cleared to make way for sheep and other profitable agriculture trade, sending the native Highlanders like the Irish to make their way to North America as well as other places because of "this Xenophobic cabal of the United Kingdom", of which Ireland was a full part of as it was still under English rule.

So please don't try and pretend that it was only the Irish who suffered at that time in the history of the Union, Scotland (i refuse to use your unionist North Britain slur) has had more than it's fair share.

Posted by: DavidT 25th Feb 2013, 04:19pm

QUOTE (farrochie @ 24th Feb 2013, 10:18pm) *
Thanks for the responses, folks.

I just wanted to tell these two stories because they are real people making up their minds about how to vote.

Alex, I'm happy to use the term "new Scots". Most of my ancestors went to Detroit, Michigan where they became new citizens of the USA, a country that prided itself in its welcome to people from other countries.

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

The huddled masses don't fare too well in Lou Reed's modern take of these lines in 'Dirty Boulevard'. The original lines reflect a nation's willingness to be a nurturing force for good. Reed's modern interpretation shows new arrivals begging, robbing and dealing on the streets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z3TPwOT31g&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Posted by: farrochie 25th Feb 2013, 04:23pm

QUOTE (Abhrann @ 25th Feb 2013, 02:11am) *
That is why the Irish " The wretched refuse of you teeming shore" left for there in their millions, they were not welcome in this xenophobic cabal of the united kingdom, nor its' offshoot of "North Britain".


Thanks, 'Abhrann'.

Almost an entire generation of my family left Uddingston for Detroit in the 1930s. My grandfather (like his father and grandfather (originally from Ireland)) were coal miners.

Remember too the large number of Scots who were forced by famine, crop failure and clearances to Canada and other territories. According to census data number of Canadians claiming full or partial Scottish descent is over 5 million.


Posted by: JAGZ1876 25th Feb 2013, 09:33pm

Breaking news from yesterdays Scotland on Sunday..........

Independent Scotland Faces Nuclear Arms Ban ohmy.gif

http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/independent-scotland-faces-nuclear-arms-ban-1-2807469


I had to keep checking the date to make sure it wasn't April 1st laugh.gif







Posted by: john.mcn 25th Feb 2013, 09:41pm



Or that it wasn't 2003, seriously hasn't the NPT been pointed out many times?

Posted by: JAGZ1876 26th Feb 2013, 07:36am

Whatever next..........

"An Independent Scotland Won't Be Allowed To Show Repeats Of The 1966 World Cup Final". laugh.gif

Posted by: wee davy 26th Feb 2013, 08:11am

Perish the thought, jagz! Were hivin loads right now because Bobby Moore hiz bin deid 20 years!
He wiz good - bit no THAT good.
I saw him play an absolute howler for West Ham 'back in the day'. He didnae know where the ba; wiz!

Posted by: farrochie 26th Feb 2013, 08:55am

Reading the Better Together stuff:

Some of the things I've heard include:

http://bettertogether.net/press/entry/jp-macintosh-lecture

One of the most scaremongering statements I've seen is "your friends in Wales, your family in England and your workmates from Northern Ireland will, effectively and overnight, become foreigners". What a foolish statement in a modern world; with family, friends and work colleagues from all over the world, I would hesitate before using the word "foreigner" about anyone. Something 20th century about it cool.gif .

We also have this: "Why on earth would we want to erect a brand new border, not just within Europe, but within this island?" What neutralises this argument is that the land border between Ireland and Northern Ireland has been completely open for many years. No border posts, no passports needed.

Darling says about Westminster rule: "if you don’t like the Government you can kick them out". But what if we don't want the sequence of Labour/Tory/Labour/Tory....that we get at Westminster; the Tories have virtually no mandate from Scotland. What if we could have a new politics at Holyrood? The referendum gives us this opportunity.

As to the EU and other institutions. For 40 years, Scotland has had the legislation and institutions that meet EU standards; we already implement directives on devolved matters; the EC has had an office in Scotland since 1975. We can manage accession to all the necessary treaties in a modern and respectful manner. Who would deny us that right?

I think Better Together's true, but unstated, message is that Westminster is better at making decisions for Scotland. History tells us that this is not true, whether it is the devastating effects of the Thatcherites on our industry, the taking of our oil revenues, Trident, the Iraq war, the continued massive military spending...None of this has been to the benefit of society in Scotland.

I hope that people will really examine the statements of each side as we progress towards the referendum. It will be a historical decision for Scotland!

Posted by: JAGZ1876 26th Feb 2013, 09:00am

wee davy, Like many an English international (an still true today) he was elevated to a higher status than his skill could match, a very good player but not an all time great.

I saw him play several times for England, did you know he walked like a woman and wore a bra? tongue.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 1st Mar 2013, 01:55pm

Hot on the heel's of Lord Malloch-Brown's revelation that "Scotland would be welcomed into the EU", then the loss of the UK's Triple A rating, another thread of the Tory led Better Together fabric of scare story's unravels.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/political-news/treaties-admission-by-coalition.20374657

Vote YES next year for the most important decision in Scotland's History. thumbup.gif

Vote NO next year.............SCOTLAND'S HISTORY angry.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 1st Mar 2013, 02:16pm

The English Broadcasting Corporation has decided to try subtlety in its "NO" campaign. Here they are implying that Scots would all have to pay 65% income tax.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21593225

Posted by: JAGZ1876 1st Mar 2013, 03:05pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 1st Mar 2013, 02:33pm) *
The English Broadcasting Corporation has decided to try subtlety in its "NO" campaign. Here they are implying that Scots would all have to pay 65% income tax.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21593225


You've hit the nail on the head Bill when you use the word "implying", as there is nothing in that story to suggest that taxation would be anywhere near 65% in an independent Scotland.

Mr Buchanan and his BEEB cronies are in a class of their own when it comes to talking Scotland down.

Posted by: bilbo.s 1st Mar 2013, 03:12pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 1st Mar 2013, 04:22pm) *
You've hit the nail on the head Bill when you use the word "implying", as there is nothing in that story to suggest that taxation would be anywhere near 65% in an independent Scotland.

Mr Buchanan and his BEEB cronies are in a class of their own when it comes to talking Scotland down.



Income tax in Denmark is nothing like that for an average earner. The couple interviewed were a doctor and a lawyer!

Posted by: odeonclubboy 1st Mar 2013, 07:14pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 26th Feb 2013, 08:28am) *
Perish the thought, jagz! Were hivin loads right now because Bobby Moore hiz bin deid 20 years!
He wiz good - bit no THAT good.
I saw him play an absolute howler for West Ham 'back in the day'. He didnae know where the ba; wiz!

Now please dont get me wrong.....I am Scottish....very Scottish but i'm afraid that i have here to stand up and defend an Englishman......I am old enough to have seen Bobby Moore play many times and he truly was a "Great" Not just my opinion ask Pele no less

Posted by: odeonclubboy 1st Mar 2013, 07:18pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 1st Mar 2013, 03:29pm) *
Income tax in Denmark is nothing like that for an average earner. The couple interviewed were a doctor and a lawyer!

Tax??? Whos payin tax? Has Mr Salmon no twigged yet? Wur aw goin oan the "Burroo" and free malt and white lightning fur aw

Posted by: john.mcn 2nd Mar 2013, 08:43pm


I gotta admit i did LOL wink.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9xkJbIsaY2E

Posted by: farrochie 8th Mar 2013, 09:47am

The latest "scare" splashed across every paper yesterday was that the Scottish Government has been assessing finances in an independent Scotland, and the choices that Scotland will have to make.

In the normal world (in business too), a position paper like this would be seen as an essential and prudent preparation. Such a paper would likely be updated frequently as new situations arise and new options emerge. Government Ministers are required to keep business confidential, unless they decide to issue a publication.

The accusation was levelled at the SNP that this paper was somehow "secret". Well, actually this is a requirement of the Ministerial Code: "2.26 Ministers have a personal responsibility to safeguard the integrity and confidentiality of Government business."

I do wonder if the other parties in Scotland (particularly the main opposition parties) are preparing themselves for the eventuality of a YES vote in the referendum. Are they preparing position papers? Are they leaving it until a decision is made? How would they manage Scotland's finances if they were suddenly propelled into government?

This also draws attention to the difference between the SNP as the "government". It is bound by "collective responsibility". That is, every Minister must agree with a policy, or they should resign. (According to Donal Dewar, shadow cabinet's are also bound by collective responsibility).

The SNP as a "party" will no doubt have its own strategies for leadership, development of manifesto, etc, as will other parties.

What has been called the "SNP's independence referendum" is really no such thing now. You could argue that the SNP developed the policy. But does the SNP have any power to stop the referendum? Answer, No. Why? Because it has been agreed by the Scottish Parliament, backed up by the Scotland-UK Edinburgh Agreement, and about to be legislated in Holyrood. This is now, on behalf of the people of Scotland, the Scottish Parliament's Referendum, not the Government's, nor the parties'.




Posted by: JAGZ1876 8th Mar 2013, 11:06am

QUOTE (farrochie @ 8th Mar 2013, 10:04am) *
The accusation was levelled at the SNP that this paper was somehow "secret". Well, actually this is a requirement of the Ministerial Code: "2.26 Ministers have a personal responsibility to safeguard the integrity and confidentiality of Government business."

I do wonder if the other parties in Scotland (particularly the main opposition parties) are preparing themselves for the eventuality of a YES vote in the referendum. Are they preparing position papers? Are they leaving it until a decision is made? How would they manage Scotland's finances if they were suddenly propelled into government?


You are perfectly correct farrochie, this is a ministerial code requirement, however the unionist MSM would never allow the general public to have this information, we really shouldn't be surprised that they don't want to have a fair and balanced debate, the misinformation and scare story's being released by the Tory led No Better Together campaign and being repeated unchallenged by MSM especially the BBC would make Goebbels blush.

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

Joseph Goebbels.

It was no coincidence that this fable was manufactured to coincide with the release of the GERS figures which showed Scotland's economy is in far better health than the rest of the UK.

Is it just another coincidence that these Anti Scottish government tales appear on a Wednesday just in time to give the unionist party leaders some ammunition to attack Alex Salmond at FM questions on a Thursday?

Well it's not working, watching yesterdays proceedings of Lamont, Davidson and Rennie in attack mode was akin to watching three lambs trying to bring down a fully grown lion laugh.gif

Of course the don't have post referendum plans for a YES vote, just like the MOD have no plans to remove Trident from the Clyde, their London bosses won't let them make any.

Posted by: farrochie 9th Mar 2013, 04:08pm

It seems now that Scotland will be 3rd richest country in the EU, though you wouldn't think that from the headline.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/warning-over-scots-eu-costs.20449228

The arguments against managing our own affairs get more and more ridiculous.

Jagz1876 - Do you have a Twitter account. I am @farrochie

Posted by: john.mcn 9th Mar 2013, 04:52pm



So Scotlands share of the present rebate is £124m but if we become independent and retain the rebate it would be £378m...Now its been quite a few years since i left School and my maths may not be up to much, but surely if Scotland is such a drain on the UK finances and needs to be heavily subsidised that our payments would actually go down ??? Or is it just maybe Westminster and the Unionist press has downplayed how 'rich' Scotland is/can become..

Also if the Herald is somehow trying to deter people from voting yes next year they're not doing a good job because to me it just reinforces my belief we will be better off separate.

Posted by: wee davy 9th Mar 2013, 05:18pm

I know its very early days yet,... but the No Campaign (of which the Herald is clearly pioneering) are doing a terrific job for the Yes Campaign.
Every ball they bowl, has currently been hit for a six, by a capable and fearlessly well organised Scottish Independence movement.

Who would've ever expected a headline like THAT a few years ago?

I can't wait for Westminster to get involved or have the Tories realised the only way they wll retain power in the next UK Election, is to allow Scotland to 'float away' lol Perhaps they are too busy making themselves a piriah in Europe. Or perhaps they've finally realise the good days of picking the bits from the carcasse, are over?

They've done a deal with King Boris of London!

Posted by: wee davy 9th Mar 2013, 08:37pm




Posted by: farrochie 10th Mar 2013, 10:03am

Alistair Darling's argument is that we shouldn't be concerned about Tory governments in London, because Labour will be in power in Westminster some time in the future. He conveniently forgets that the Labour no longer has a real commitment to social justice. Labour must have policies that favour middle England; they have said this many times, including recently Ed Milliband. Westminster favours London and the south-east, always has, always will.

Had the union been one of equals, Scotland would have a population of 10-15 million, a globally competitive financial centre, modern industry and commerce. Look at the way our population was allowed to dip below 5M just a few years ago.

I believe that an independent Scotland will see immediate benefits in terms of investment and jobs. Why? Because Scottish Governments (no matter what make-up) will have to make major investment in new government departments that will have spending power over our revenues.

At the moment, all of our Corporation Tax, NICs, VAT, Income Tax, Fuel Tax, Petroleum Revenue Tax....ALL OF IT, goes down to the Westminster Treasury. Westminster politicians decide how that money is to be spent (Trident, foreign aid, wars, House of Lords...) and some comes back to Scotland. Of course there is a "transaction charge", like banks, they take money from us to manage OUR money!!!

Scotland needs to collect its own taxes and spend its revenues on what the people of Scotland decide. Westminster will never make decisions that favour Scotland. Only a Scottish Government with full powers will act on behalf of the people of Scotland. Scotland has talented people who can govern and administer; we have demonstrated that on a global scale.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 10th Mar 2013, 11:23am

QUOTE (farrochie @ 10th Mar 2013, 10:20am) *
Alistair Darling's argument is that we shouldn't be concerned about Tory governments in London, because Labour will be in power in Westminster some time in the future. He conveniently forgets that the Labour no longer has a real commitment to social justice. Labour must have policies that favour middle England; they have said this many times, including recently Ed Milliband. Westminster favours London and the south-east, always has, always will.


He also forgets that it was Harold Wilson and his government who gave the order to bury the McCrone report (for any unionist defenders who do not know about this, just Google "The McCrone Report") and we should be very concerned that a Labour (Tory Lite) government may again get into power in Westminster.

Perhaps some Labour supporters on here could tell us what good the Wilson/Callaghan and Blair/Brown governments actually did for the interests of Scotland and her people?

Vote YES Next Year thumbup.gif

P.S Sorry farrochie i'm not on Twitter, i've only just retired my carrier pidgeon biggrin.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 10th Mar 2013, 11:53am

Here´s the best summing up of the McCrone Report that I have read:-

http://weegiewarbler.blogspot.com.es/2012/01/dissecting-mccrone-report-official.html

Posted by: JAGZ1876 10th Mar 2013, 12:12pm

It just keeps on getting worse for the Tory led vote NO Better Together campaign.

The normally eloquent and well mannered Labour MP Ian Davidson who famously admitted to threatening to give fellow Westminster MP Ms Eilidh Whiteford "a good doing" is at it again this time caught on microphone referring to a fellow Better Together laugh.gif Campaigner as a "Stupid B*****d", then "The most stupid of them all".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU5AJAhb-sg

Sadly, if this lot get their way and we vote No next year, then we, THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND will be the STUPIDEST B*****D'S of them all yes.gif

Vote YES next year thumbup.gif

Posted by: DavidT 10th Mar 2013, 12:35pm

"Sadly, if this lot get their way and we vote No next year, then we, THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND will be the STUPIDEST B*****D'S of them all

Vote YES next year"
Jagz1876

Yes I believe I will smile.gif

Posted by: DavidT 10th Mar 2013, 12:36pm

"Sadly, if this lot get their way and we vote No next year, then we, THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND will be the STUPIDEST B*****D'S of them all

Vote YES next year"
Jagz1876

Yes I believe I will smile.gif

Posted by: DavidT 10th Mar 2013, 12:38pm

Well that seems to be two yessesez from me.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 10th Mar 2013, 12:47pm

QUOTE
Responding to the (Tony Blair) speech, SNP MSP Christina McKelvie MSP, said: "This is a good development for the 'yes' campaign, because the 10th anniversary of Tony Blair's invasion of Iraq on false pretences is a compelling illustration of the need for Scotland's parliament to have the full powers of independence.

"Scotland needs a parliament with the ability to speak with our own voice in the world, get rid of nuclear weapons and build a fair society and strong economy.

"That is why we need an independent Scotland - and the more often Tory Blair argues for 'no', the stronger the 'yes' vote will become."

What ever this manipulator is against would be reason enough for me to vote the other way.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-21686240


Posted by: farrochie 10th Mar 2013, 01:17pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 10th Mar 2013, 11:40am) *
Sorry farrochie i'm not on Twitter, i've only just retired my carrier pidgeon biggrin.gif


Think about opening a Twitter account, Jagz, it is just a simple registration. Lots of fun to be had posting there, as long as you can make your point in 140 characters. smile.gif

Posted by: wee davy 10th Mar 2013, 02:13pm

No disrespect to you, farrochie, but this is why Twitter seems to be often restricted to retarded footballers, poor authors, and 'celebrities' who feel they have something to say (whilst getting a bit of free advertising).
I'm not all THAT impressed with FB, and in fact as its about to increase its advertising space, considerably, as soon as it does, that'll probably be that for me there, too. I only use THAT to be nosey about extended family - to be honest with you.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 10th Mar 2013, 03:42pm

QUOTE (DavidT @ 10th Mar 2013, 12:55pm) *
Well that seems to be two yessesez from me.


Oh no David......You'll have the Tory led Vote NO Better Together supporters screaming about dirty tricks laugh.gif

Well it's no worse than the other straws they've been clinging to tongue.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 10th Mar 2013, 03:45pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 10th Mar 2013, 02:30pm) *
I only use THAT to be nosey about extended family - to be honest with you.


Is that the virtual equivalent of keeking oot the net curtains WD? biggrin.gif

Posted by: wee davy 10th Mar 2013, 06:21pm

Naw - its no even as much fun as that! lol
Ma daughter talked me intae using it - noo she's direct linked on ipad and iphone 55.5

Posted by: JAGZ1876 10th Mar 2013, 08:18pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 10th Mar 2013, 06:38pm) *
noo she's direct linked on ipad and iphone 55.5


Nope.....I didn't understand a word of that tongue.gif

Posted by: wee davy 10th Mar 2013, 08:55pm

Am oot the link - you'll need to ask apple.com lol Awe ah know is it costsa fortune. I'll end me days on a fixed line Windows with Outlook 2007 Office lol I refuse to keep up any more.

Posted by: serabash 11th Mar 2013, 08:17pm

QUOTE
Scottish Government: Oil and Gas Analysis

The Scottish Government’s Oil and Gas analysis published today confirms Scotland’s long term future as a major oil producing nation.

Our position as the EU’s energy capital is reaffirmed by the analysis, which shows that Scotland accounted for:
  • 96% of total UK offshore oil production in 2011.
  • 78% of total UK oil and gas production in 2011.
  • 52% of total UK gas production in 2011.
  • 64% of EU oil production in 2010.
  • 36% of EU oil and gas production in 2010.
Scotland’s oil and gas sector is going from strength to strength
  • The oil and gas sector contributed an estimated £25bn to Scottish GDP in 2011; 17% of total GDP.
  • Total UK production of oil and gas boosted the UK balance of payments by around £40bn in 2011.
  • Industry body Oil and Gas UK estimate that up to 24 billion barrels of oil and gas equivalent could still be recovered, with an estimated value of up to £1.5 trillion.
  • Investment in the North Sea is at its highest in 30 years, expected to rise to £13bn in 2013.
  • Total investment in companies’ plans is worth around £100bn.
  • In recent years, oil prices have often exceeded forecasts. For example, in 2010 future markets implied an oil price of around $85 a barrel in 2011 and 2012. Actual prices averages at over $110 a barrel.
Scotland’s long term future as a major oil producing nation has been confirmed.
  • The new analysis showed Scotland is in line for a renewed oil boom, with around £48bn of revenue predicted over six years.
  • Taking account of recent trends in investment and prices, the industry could generate between £41 and £57bn in tax revenue between 2012-13 and 2017-18.
  • Over half the wholesale value of the nation’s oil reserves are estimated to still to be extracted.
  • It is estimated that approximately 85% of remaining UK oil and gas reserves lie in Scottish waters.
  • Scotland’s share of estimated oil reserves is thought to be higher still, with in excess of 90 per cent of UK oil reserves believed to be located in Scotland’s share of the UKCS.
  • Even the UK Government admits the North Sea has long term future. UK Energy Minister John Hayes said last week: “one of the messages I broadcast regularly, both here and elsewhere, is that the North Sea has a long life ahead of it. It’s very important that, through enhanced extraction and new discoveries, there is a bright future ahead for oil and gas” (Press & Journal, 6 March 2013)
Scotland's oil and gas sector is going from strength to strength.
  • The latest forecasts by Oil and Gas UK suggest that production could reach 2m barrels a day by 2017 - a 30% increase on current production levels. This is evidence of a second oil boom.
  • Last week, the OECD suggested that oil prices could exceed $150-a-barrel by 2020.
  • Even with a cautious estimate of prices remaining at $113 a barrel being used, it’s clear that Scottish oil and gas could generate more revenues than has previously been assumed.
  • In recent years, oil prices have exceeded many initial forecasts. The Scottish Government analysis outlines that in 2010, futures markets implied an oil price of around $85 a barrel in 2011 and 2012. Actual prices over this period averaged more than $110 a barrel.
The recent surge of investment in the North Sea shows the industry’s confidence about its future
  • Reports last week saw Talisman Energy confirming plans to invest around $800m in the North Sea during 2013. And the boom of investment in the North Sea over the last two years will increase revenues by £3 billion in 2017.
  • A report from Lloyds published on Monday 4 March found that more than 34,000 jobs will be created in the oil and gas sector in Scotland over the next two years.
    o 83% of Scottish oil and gas firms expected to see more business.
    o 21% of English firms were interested in diversification, compared with 39% in Scotland.
    o Stuart White, area director of Lloyds Bank’s commercial banking in the north of Scotland said: “This is good news for the UK economy and north-east Scotland, in particular, where there is a concentration of oil and gas companies.”
  • A report from Oil and Gas UK published on Monday 25 February found that investment in the North Sea is at its highest in 30 years, and is still rising.
    o Companies looking for offshore energy invested £11.4bn in 2012
    o This figure is expected to rise to at least £13bn in 2013.
About the analysis: The analysis is the first in a series of Scottish Government bulletins summarizing statistics and analysis of the Scottish oil and gas industry. Today’s bulletin focused on production levels, remaining reserves and potential future revenues.

Posted by: bilbo.s 13th Mar 2013, 10:37am

Good article from Daily Record, but seemingly not in the printed edition - why not??

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/joan-mcalpine-oil-money-scotland-1757614

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 13th Mar 2013, 01:12pm

Why not indeed, Bill.

Posted by: farrochie 13th Mar 2013, 08:19pm

I find the mainstream press and tv to be verging on hysteria, trying to cobble together negative headlines against independence.

Every issue, EU, AAA credit rating, 16 year olds voting, 14000 treaties...every one of them is shown to be overstated.

Scotland can manage these matters. For goodness sake we have provided politicians, administrators, engineers, scientists, doctors, oil men and inventors to the world. We can have a government in Scotland that is answerable to Scots voters, not a distant, expensive and wasteful Westminster. Independence is Scotland's next logical step.

Posted by: wee davy 13th Mar 2013, 10:30pm

Bona Sera, my friends

You will get no dissenters here with that, farrochie.
Any possibility of reasoned, intelligent debate, has been consistently been ignored on here.
I watched the youngsters today, on tv, put their peers to shame by showing them how seriously they will take their future in their hands,
I find it despicable, people SENIOR people, completely refuse to join in the debate - give us ONE reason for remaining in a union which, for 50 years, has given Scotland a bum deal.
The fact that not ONE person has answered my question, 100's of posts (I will continue to ask, by the way), is a terrible way to behave on a subject of such importance to Scotland.

Posted by: farrochie 14th Mar 2013, 01:20pm

Now "Jags for Independence"

https://www.facebook.com/JagsForIndependence

wee davy, I know what you mean about Twitter, but there is also serious posts by newsmen like Alex Thomson. Jon Snow, very quick access to news. You select what you want to see. If you think standard on Twitter is poor, then think about joining up and help me improve it smile.gif

I hardly use FB now, disable account, but opened it again recently. There is hardly anything it does for me that I can't do using e-mail and Skype.

I most look at #indyref stuff, lots of good posts by people.


Posted by: wee davy 18th Mar 2013, 03:42pm

http://nationalcollective.com/2013/03/14/amy-shipway-independence-will-provide-local-solutions-for-local-problems/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=amy-shipway-independence-will-provide-local-solutions-for-local-problems&utm_source=Collective&utm_campaign=e36fcdadfd-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email

QUOTE
A concept that the Better Together campaign strongly promotes is the idea that the UK as a whole represents a ‘family’ and that we are more secure as a family unit, under one metaphorical roof. But there are many types of family, and a break in the Union of Parliaments does not mean that we will no longer be related. After all, we will still remain under the British monarchy. Despite the fact that we will no longer live under the same ‘roof’, we may still respect and support each other. If we applied Better Together’s notions of security to our own lives, we would be grown adults still living under our parents roofs, not exactly appealing to most. The kind of anxieties that crop up in the discussion of Scottish independence are parallel with the kind of anxieties that arise when we take the first steps to moving out of our parents homes: ‘Will I be able to manage on my own?’ ‘Will I be able to cope financially?’ Despite these anxieties we do not let them hold us back from taking a step our personal freedom, so why should the question of Scottish independence be any different? It should not. We should not be governed by


Amy Shipway - a snippet

(Sorry - double bounce)

Posted by: JAGZ1876 19th Mar 2013, 06:41am

I found this interesting Facebook site about Trade unions for independence.

http://www.facebook.com/Tu4si?group_id=0

I have never been a big trade union fan but all the best guy's.

And our friends at Labour for independence seem to be going from strength to strength, good work people.


http://www.labourforindy.co.uk/

Vote YES next year thumbup.gif

Posted by: Alex Saville 20th Mar 2013, 02:22pm

The Herald had an article on Sunday which told us that Salmond is giving £5m to Malawi in aid.
A few years ago, Salmond was at the forefront of a campaign to allow failed asylum seeker Florence Mhango and her daughter Precious (From Malawi), to stay in Scotland. (I believe they have since absconded! So much for not detaining them at Dungavel!)
On the one hand, Malawi is a destination for £5m of the Scottish Governments budget and on the other it's a terrible place to send back failed asylum seekers.
If its such a terrible place, why are we funding it to the tune of £5m?
If it's not a terrible place why did Salmond support not sending back failed asylum seekers?

Where are they getting this £5m from? They keep telling us that Westminster has made savage cuts in their income.
Wouldn't that £5m go to keeping Remploy workers in Scotland in employment?
In 2010 the UK, Germany, Norway, the World Bank, the EU, the African Development Bank, all cut funding to Malawi because of misuse of aid moneys.
Malawi bought a £8m jet for Government use. Why didn't they spend that on helping their countrymen and women?

Clearly the SNP have never heard of Charity beginning at home!
Alex

Posted by: bilbo.s 20th Mar 2013, 02:42pm

Alex, I suspect that you are trying to make the point that Scotland should not be independent, because of wrongful squandering of taxpayers´money like this example, although the UK Government has a far worse record of donations to other undeserving countries. Let´s not even mention Trident - a teensy bit more than 5 million.

I do not support every decision by the Scottish Government - (who in his right mind would give blanket approval of decisions by any government ? ) - but I believe that the Scottish people should have the power to control their own affairs, by electing the government of their choice.

Posted by: wee davy 20th Mar 2013, 04:03pm

I can see your argument Alex.
Your suggesting a vote for Independence, next year, is a vote for the SNP.

A great many people will support you in this argument.
(The word National is a bit of a giveaway).
The SNP were indeed founded on such a proposal.
You seem to think the SNP will be voted into permanent power, should YES be the outcome.
There is another argument.
The SNP MIGHT just be making themselves redundant - having achieved a founding goal!

The 'big stick' for those of you who fear 'going it alone' is the fact you will lose a say in Westminster decisions, following a YES vote. I've been asking consistently on this forum, WHY would any of you WANT that say?
As yet, I haven't had ONE credible reply.

I'm not talking about your personal view, but I think the REAL reason there is sizeable opposition (but their not willing to COME OUT with it) is, they are COMPLETELY Anglified, and integrated into 'Great Britain'.
I dont KNOW this, but I think it a reasonable assumption to make.

Carrots have been coming out of YES groups ears, regards Independence.

Why dont the NO's come out of hiding and join in a debate which will affect the Scottish People's Future??

I am quite frankly STUNNED by the lack of participation.
Many of them are about as SCOTTISH as George III. (Or William The Conquerer), or one of the Queen's Corgie's.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 20th Mar 2013, 04:40pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 20th Mar 2013, 04:20pm) *
... Many of them are about as SCOTTISH as George III. (Or William The Conquerer) ...

I thought I ewas about to read ... as Scottish as George III (or William the third) ... laugh.gif

Posted by: Alex Saville 20th Mar 2013, 05:08pm

Actually, you two have got the wrong end of the stick here! Completely!
I've never said I would vote no!
I have said "Please also note I do not speak from a 'Better Together' perspective.
I speak from the perspective of my own view and relate the information I have came across for the perusal of others.
They can agree or disagree at their leisure.
I, however, reserve my right in a democratic society to express my views."
Having said that, I'll point out that for 46 years I voted for the SNP.

In the last few years, however, I've began to wonder if that was a waste of time.
I believed that in an Independent Scotland, we would have a more democratic society, where the wishes of the people would take precedence over the wishes of an increasingly out of touch collection of political parties. Sadly, I now include the SNP in that category.
From my point of view, I cant see the difference between the policies of those parties who favour a united UK and the party that favours an independent Scotland.

The SNP favour more immigration, the unionist parties don't say they are in favour, instead they just make noises but in reality don't do anything to reduce it.
The SNP gives away cash as foreign aid, as do the unionists (All of them!)
The SNP says Westminster has cut their budget so we Scots are suffering because of Unionist Westminster.
Unionist Westminster (All parties) say that the SNP are making Scots suffer!
Meanwhile the SNP gives £5m to Malawi!
The SNP favour same sex marriage, as do the unionist parties, no difference there either, despite the sham consultations on both sides of the border.
The SNP wont give Scots a referendum on Europe if Scotland becomes independent.
The other parties (Despite what the Tories say) wont either if it is a NO vote in 2014.

So will we be better off independent? Perhaps.
Will we better off if we aren't? Maybe the answer to both these questions is 'Will we any worse off?'
Will we live in a more democratic Scotland? I doubt it.
More of the same politically correct legislation and more of the same politically correct politicians and their hangers on, will be the likely result.
All of them, whatever party is in power, totally out of touch with public opinion.
Alex




Posted by: farrochie 21st Mar 2013, 09:48am

Today the date of the referendum will be announced. A Thursday or a Saturday, that's the first question.

The referendum becomes less and less about the political parties, more about what we Scots think. It becomes two campaigns, the Yes Scotland and the Better Together. Many have made up their minds, many still to decide.

I hope that people will seek the facts, don't just accept what the campaigns say. Especially don't just accept what you read in the papers. Listen to the arguments and counter arguments. Which ones are based on facts, and ring true? Which ones are logical? Which appeal to you? What does your instinct tell you?

Is Scotland really uniquely incapable of running its own affairs? Are we really "better" tied to Westminster with 59 MPs out of 650, and the certainty of Tory...Labour..Tory...policies for middle England, a future of international meddling and arms supply? Or can we make our own decisions as a fully-fledged country with a unique voice in the family of nations?

I have chosen to vote YES, and I am now going to work towards an Independent Scotland. The world is waiting for us!

Posted by: DavidT 21st Mar 2013, 10:39am

So far I have found the best campaigners for a YES vote to be IDS, David Cameron and lets not forget the Chancellor..bless him.

Posted by: wee davy 21st Mar 2013, 10:50am

Yep,... their doing a storming job!

Zero growth. Exponential borrowing, and STILL persisting with eco friendly policies (which is where all the money is really being syphoned off, I'll bet)

Oh,... and lets not forget, stealing from the poor, to give to the rich!

Go Davy,... Go IDS,... Go George!
Your doing a cracking job for the YES campaign.

Posted by: farrochie 22nd Mar 2013, 08:39am

So now we know:

18th September 2014

No matter what side you take, it is important that people get out and vote, and make sure that we demonstrate a real democratic mandate to the world.

As for me, I have great confidence in Scotland's abilities to make the important decisions for ourselves, without always having our 59 MPs outnumbered in Westminster. Left-leaning people are having to wait 5 to 10 years, and more, to overturn unpopular Tory governments.

In an independent Scotland, my hope is for new parties to form. Labour, LibDems and Tory parties are currently all registered in England. They just stick Scottish in front of their name, it's meaningless as they are managed from London, forcing them to support Trident and foreign adventures.

Scotland has great people, sufficient resources and tremendous determination to better ourselves and to help our fellow citizens. These are the reasons I'll be voting YES in 2014.

Posted by: serabash 30th Apr 2013, 10:48am

http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/yesscotland/pages/1755/attachments/original/1366895555/YES_A4_Volunteer_Narrative_A_Apr13_NOCROPS.pdf?1366895555

worth a look.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 5th May 2013, 04:25pm

More of that volatile black stuff.............is there no end to our misfortune....we were told it would have ran dry by the 90's.... we're all doomed.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/scotland/article1255361.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2013_05_04

Vote YES next year thumbup.gif

Posted by: wee davy 5th May 2013, 07:30pm

QUOTE
However, a global law firm has warned that constitutional uncertainty could discourage companies from investing in the North Sea
Times

Yeah,... right.

That 'Global'Law firm wouldn't be based in London, perchance?

Posted by: farrochie 5th May 2013, 07:58pm

wee davy

"constitutional difficulties" don't stop oil companies. The only thing that they are nervous about it undefined borders eg Scotland/Faroes and Norway/Russia got solved very quickly to enable oil exploration in these "unresolved" or "disputed" boundaries.

Scotland's Exclusive Economic Zone will be pretty easily defined, though we need to disput the area given away to England just before devolution...disgraceful behaviour and an example of how Westminster are likely to pursue negotiations with Scotland.

Posted by: wee davy 5th May 2013, 09:14pm

I'm very interested in the 'give away' farrochie - where was that exactly? I was out of the country when all that was being kicked about.

Just point me in the right direction, for info.

BTW Thank you to those who have done just that for me, today.

Posted by: john.mcn 5th May 2013, 09:53pm



Oil companies go where the black stuff pours, they are present in several dodgy places where workers risk kidnapping so i think possible constitutional change will not even register.

Posted by: john.mcn 5th May 2013, 09:58pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 5th May 2013, 09:31pm) *
I'm very interested in the 'give away' farrochie - where was that exactly? I was out of the country when all that was being kicked about.

Just point me in the right direction, for info.

BTW Thank you to those who have done just that for me, today.



Farrochie means the 6,000 or so sq miles now coming under English jurisdiction, personally i think that if it came to an international arbitrator the medieval maritime border wouldn't hold water(pun intended) this was drawn before the union and at a rough 90 degrees from the tweed even though the land border runs at approx 45 degrees.

Posted by: wombat 5th May 2013, 10:06pm

laugh.gif and they called sadaam hussien a crook for "slant drilling"into kuwait

Posted by: JAGZ1876 6th May 2013, 09:42am

QUOTE (wee davy @ 5th May 2013, 09:31pm) *
I'm very interested in the 'give away' farrochie - where was that exactly? I was out of the country when all that was being kicked about.

Just point me in the right direction, for info.

BTW Thank you to those who have done just that for me, today.


There are many sites you can read about it WD, this is just one.

http://www.oilofscotland.org/scotlands_stolen_sea.html

It will be returned before independence day.

Vote YES next year thumbup.gif

Posted by: Dave Grieve 6th May 2013, 02:49pm

Reading about the threat to stop us using the Pound after independence, why not preempt this by changing the currency to the Scots Dollar, that would really get up their noses in london thumbup.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 6th May 2013, 05:06pm

QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 6th May 2013, 03:06pm) *
Reading about the threat to stop us using the Pound after independence, why not preempt this by changing the currency to the Scots Dollar, that would really get up their noses in london thumbup.gif


That's all it is Dave, a threat, nothing more, the Pound Sterling is as much our currency as it is England's, the same goes for the Bank of England despite the name.

Although i'm with Denis Canavan on the currency issue (our own currency) i don't mind us using Sterling in the short term until we establish our own currency.

Posted by: farrochie 6th May 2013, 09:33pm

Thanks for providing wee davy wi the info, JAGZ.

I think there will be a lot of negotiations needed. Jobs galore for constitutional and contract lawyers by the looks of it.

Rockall already belongs to Scotland too and is assigned to Invernesshire smile.gif

[Rockall Act 1972]

Posted by: wombat 6th May 2013, 10:01pm

smile.gif thx fer that info farrochie,

Posted by: JAGZ1876 8th May 2013, 08:54am

The unacceptable face of British Nationalism.

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4917430/Top-lawman-in-P-race-storm.html

To accuse your opponents of what you are guilty of yourself really is the lowest of the low.

Don't give this smug racist weasel his dream of 100 years of Tory rule.

Vote YES next year thumbup.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 8th May 2013, 09:37am



I hate it that anyone who uses the 'P' is smeared as a racist, it is an abbreviation as much as Scot. Brit or Aussie. Actions should be criminal not words.

As to that twitter post, it pisses me off more that that idiot is somehow linking an Independant country to pogroms or expulsions of peoples. These cretins that populate the 'No' campaign are given free reign to brand independence supporters everything from pol pot to mugabe to Mussolini, yet if a 'Cybernat' misplaces a comma all hell breaks loose on their ranks...

There should be T-shirts available then i could wear it with pride, some though would probably be offended and complain to the the police.



Posted by: JAGZ1876 8th May 2013, 10:15am

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 8th May 2013, 09:54am) *
I hate it that anyone who uses the 'P' is smeared as a racist, it is an abbreviation as much as Scot. Brit or Aussie. Actions should be criminal not words.


I don't disagree on that point John, but this moron is trying to imply that after independence the people of Scotland will become racist and turn on Pakistani's and Pole's etc, and to compare supporters of the YES campaign to members of the KKK is ignorance of the highest order, from a supporter of a regime who want more and more to remove and isolate the UK from the rest of Europe.

How ironic.

Posted by: DavidT 8th May 2013, 10:48am

laugh.gif Jack McConnell (52 laugh.gif ) thinks cyber "jocks" should "get a life" and "grow up".
Ya big lassie McConnell laugh.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 8th May 2013, 10:55am

here´s an interesting article:-

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/how-scotlands-economy-went-south/

Posted by: bilbo.s 8th May 2013, 11:38am

A wee bit of light relief:-

https://www.facebook.com/TheUllapoolNews?hc_location=stream

Posted by: john.mcn 8th May 2013, 11:39am

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 8th May 2013, 10:32am) *
I don't disagree on that point John, but this moron is trying to imply that after independence the people of Scotland will become racist and turn on Pakistani's and Pole's etc, and to compare supporters of the YES campaign to members of the KKK is ignorance of the highest order, from a supporter of a regime who want more and more to remove and isolate the UK from the rest of Europe.

How ironic.



I dont think it's ignorance at all, i think this 'labeling' is done on purpose because they know that if a lie is repeated enough people accept it as the truth, mmm wonder where they got that idea from wink.gif

Posted by: farrochie 8th May 2013, 03:18pm

Smart won't apologise, blames the SNP, claims that if we become independent and economy does not work well, we, the people of Scotland, will "turn on" minorities. This clown is playing a race card in the independence debate.

"There is a worry" he says. Well I have never heard this "worry". Who are "these people" that he refers to that are going to turn on others.

Watch him defend himself here (after the grey hair advert).

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/224429-ian-smart-race-row-over-independence-and-nationalist-comments/

Posted by: wee davy 8th May 2013, 05:45pm

This little pearler were snuck in halfway through the queen's speech today, but it does'nt appear in any of the 'FULL' written reports (I've only checked the BBC/Telegraph/Guardian or anywhere in the Scottish media - yet.

QUOTE
Queens Speech "my government will continue to make the case for Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom"


Will somebody tell the NO campaign?
Then will someone have the decency to tell the people who matter? The Scottish People. Who can then finally engage in some meaningful dialogue?

I had to listen to it over again on video, to make sure of my facts. Its exactly six minutes in - for those of you who may be interested.

(continue to make the case??? shouldn't it be 'my governments will to do everything to explore the question of Independence for Scotland??)

Posted by: wee davy 8th May 2013, 05:58pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 8th May 2013, 09:54am) *


If anybody's making these, put me down for 2 XXL's

Posted by: JAGZ1876 8th May 2013, 06:56pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 8th May 2013, 06:02pm) *
This little pearler were snuck in halfway through the queen's speech today, but it does'nt appear in any of the 'FULL' written reports (I've only checked the BBC/Telegraph/Guardian or anywhere in the Scottish media - yet.



(continue to make the case??? shouldn't it be 'my governments will to do everything to explore the question of Independence for Scotland??)



Yes WD the tea time BBC in Scotland Misreporting Scotland had a 5 minute report on it (even though it only took a couple of seconds for Liz to announce it) but credit to the English BEEB Westminster reporter who repeatedly tried to quell Jackie Birds hysteria by reminding her that the speech was written by the UK government themselves.

As most of us in the YES campaign expected no mention whatsoever on the Ian Smart story, after a week of wall to wall coverage of the Susan Calman (someone who is pro independence may have sent her a death threat that no one has actually seen) circus they must be all tired out.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 8th May 2013, 07:08pm

It's hard to argue against this.

http://ayewecan.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/my-brother-ian-smart-is-not-racist.html

Vote YES next year thumbup.gif

Posted by: DavidT 8th May 2013, 10:21pm

What's in a name?
NHS initiative - is this name a coincidence or a subversive message. Check out the posters at your local surgery. tongue.gif

http://www.healthcareimprovementscotland.org/our_work/patient_experience/better_together.aspx

Posted by: wee davy 9th May 2013, 02:08pm

Here we go, here we go, here we go-o,... here we go here we go here we go-o!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2321864/Mortgage-costs-soar-Scotland-breaks-away-UK-Treasury-warn-support-independence-slumps-again.html

FIGHT!

Lies, lies, pants on fire! The day after it slid a wee aside in, via the Queens Speech. Well, if this is the standard we are to expect, from the NON's, we have very little fear.

Posted by: bilbo.s 9th May 2013, 04:17pm

More dirty tricks!

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/legal-experts-snp-bound-by-law-to-stop-independence-campaign-28-days-before-referendum.136809765

Posted by: bilbo.s 9th May 2013, 04:25pm

Aye, Davy - some wonderfully educated people read the Mail. laugh.gif

Posted by: wee davy 9th May 2013, 05:29pm

'purdah' isn't even an English word derivative. It has a Muslim basis! Now that really IS muddying the waters!

thank you for providing yet another pearler, sahib

Posted by: wombat 9th May 2013, 10:41pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 9th May 2013, 03:25pm) *
Here we go, here we go, here we go-o,... here we go here we go here we go-o!! sez wee davy

a scowling auld wummin wie a big stick appears

sad.gif No we wont... No we wont .... No we wont.... laugh.gif

where's t hee ,rab etc? cheers




Lies, lies, pants on fire! The day after it slid a wee aside in, via the Queens Speech. Well, if this is the standard we are to expect, from the NON's, we have very little fear.

Posted by: farrochie 10th May 2013, 07:48am

I suppose like everybody I read these frequent polls that gie the YES side about 30% and wonder just what is going on in people's minds. Our own poll of 1002 people on this board shows a consistent 67% YES.

But take a look at how the polls went just before the 1997 devolution referendum; it makes interesting reading:-

http://www.scottishaffairs.org/onlinepub/sa/mccrone_1997-98polls.html

The YES vote was on a slow decline to near 60%, but the result was 74%. The YES to tax raising went down to 45% in the polls, but the result was 63%.

This gives me hope that the general voters (as opposed to those of us who are active in discussion) make up their minds quite late in the process. Once in the ballot box, you might just ask yourself the question: Scotland, can we do it? YES WE CAN smile.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 10th May 2013, 08:03am

Better together ???

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/political-news/another-74m-lost-on-carrier-plan-mps-told.21042053?utm_source=headlines&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email%2Balert

Posted by: wee davy 10th May 2013, 09:16am

Mr Murphy (Shadow Defence) really needs to go back to school.
I suggest he begins at MOD Contracts, and how they are fulfilled.

Another example of some numpty being given a job, who doesn't do his homework properly.

I'm surprised some politicians can tie their shoe laces or put their pants round the right way - honestly, I am losing complete faith in they're ability to even feed themselves.

Michael Portillo (who's eked out a nice we earner as a comedian on THIS WEEK show) said last night 'but we poor souls don't get any training you know - flung in at the deep end - sink or swim.

I'm surprised any ever rise to the top again.

Neiither use nor ornament.

Posted by: Dave Grieve 10th May 2013, 02:07pm

I read somewhere that the no vote is increasing? don't know if its true but I have 50 reasons to vote YES.

Google 'richest towns in Britain' and it returns an article from the Telegraph from April 2008 where the top 50 richest towns are listed based on the property value.
No Glasgow is not there and surprise surprise there is not one town in Scotland makes it into the top 50.
Nor Wales or N Ireland all the richest towns are in England and noticeably in the south of England.

Posted by: john.mcn 10th May 2013, 03:11pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 10th May 2013, 09:33am) *
Mr Murphy (Shadow Defence) really needs to go back to school.


Ohh Mr Murphy knows fine well how to add up and do maths, after all he's been subject to a lot of criticism in what he has claimed for since becoming an MP for the area i live in. One of which, a new bathroom, he was forced to repay over £3,000 back, then there's him flipping his 2nd home to his house in Giffnock and we get to pay his mortgage, or how about his London pad where he lets it out then rents another place and claims back the rent. of course who could forget the subletting of his constituency office to the local MSP and both claiming back the rent, something Henry McLeish was forced to resign for.. It seems ole teflon Jim is untouchable....for now.
I find it somewhat ironic that Mr Murphy is concerned about public cash considering he has claimed well over £1M in expenses, much of it in food that we, as tax payers, get to pay for while there's talk of food banks opening up.. So i think he has many problems but maths certainly isn't one of them..

As a constituent of his i definitely don't feel he is value for money

Posted by: wee davy 10th May 2013, 03:30pm

How come this guy aint swinging from the gallows, then?

If thats all he spends his time on - adding up his claims.

For he certainly doesn't read up on MOD contracts.

More proof (if ever it were needed) Westminster is simply a skool for sharks!

Posted by: bilbo.s 12th May 2013, 08:19am

Interesting article, even if it is from the Sun :-

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/scotlandfeatures/4924051/Expert-Scotland-can-legally-leave-the-UK-and-be-debt-free.html

Could radically improve our bargaining position and also influence some of the Don't Knows.

Posted by: bilbo.s 12th May 2013, 08:51am

...and from the Herald :-

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/adviser-to-german-government-indy-scotland-would-still-be-in-europe.20948699

Posted by: john.mcn 12th May 2013, 08:51am



Pretty much what some of us have been saying all along.

Posted by: DavidT 12th May 2013, 09:26am

What? Germans on our side? Experts say Scotland would do just fine? Tories falling out over Europe? Labour fall out with Better Together pals?

All together now...
"oh what a beautiful morning.. "

Posted by: serabash 12th May 2013, 11:28pm

just found this , hope you enjoy. wink.gif


Scotland Inspires Me - By Gordon S.Kerman


I had heard about Scotland all my life, growing up in a Canadian family with a Scottish mum, whom I call M.

Before leaving Canada I travelled the length and breadth of it, from British Columbia to Nova Scotia and Dawson City, Yukon Territories to the border of the United States and beyond.

My first holiday in Scotland was in August 1995 for a two-week period. I was immediately taken by how different and beautiful the country was in comparison to Canada. While waiting for the bus into the city I noticed something that set a seed of understanding. A tourist, having her bags loaded into a taxi, didn’t notice papers and a £50 note which had flown out of her grasp. An observant Scot quickly responded, handing them back to her. Her body language said it all.

After my two weeks of inspiring bliss, awe-filled events and sights, touring the highlands, walking all over Edinburgh and seeing some of the most beautiful women I’d ever laid eyes on, the holiday was over.

I knew then that I had to come to live and work here. I belonged.

My first week back in Canada was spent calculating finances, logistics and doing a feasibility study. It was going to take seven years of focused determination to be able to arrive on my own terms: single and with a decent nest egg to see me through a long holiday and searching for a job.
After two years of focus, a reality occurred, a different tactic was needed. The exchange rate between the Canadian dollar and the pound was moving the seven year goal post closer to twelve years. So after much deliberation and determination my focus adjusted to locating a job in the USA, as the exchange rate was almost double at that time. That process took me a full year and involved contacting agencies and companies alike. Finally making two contacts that confirmed job offers, I accepted the best one and received a signing bonus, travel expenses, moving costs and rent on a flat for the first month.
The money was far better and it allowed me to pay off my debts and build a healthy nest egg much, much quicker. Three years in the States and my plan was ready.

Touch down in Edinburgh, 9th of August 2001. My life in Scotland began.

The first five month period of my life here was all about immersing, as it still is today. I met people from all over the world, including my closest friends who are from Scotland, Wales, England and Ireland. I delved into everything and enjoyed all aspects of what Scotland has to offer including my friends’ company. This did the trick and convinced me that I would remain in Scotland for the rest of my life.

After the first year had passed, I started to take a keen interest in politics and, being my own man, it was necessary for me to do the appropriate research and find out for myself ‘what-was-what’. While scouring the papers to see what people from Scotland were being subjected to I gained some insight into what our other three countries were being influenced by. My research lead me to libraries and online networks, taking the time to investigate the fiction, spin and cover ups that affect everyone’s lives to the government’s advantage.

My understanding soon turned to outrage, not only on a personal level, but also on many levels of decency and integrity. I simply couldn’t believe the political hierarchy, condescension, arrogant child’s play and fervent denial of Scotland’s requests on even a basic level. At that point, my respect for the UK government was equal to absolute zero. All of it plunging from the depths of the unionist ideology, in almost authoritarian terms. How else would you describe political parties in one country that can’t say or do anything until their masters down south in another country approve it? My political vote had a name.

From the highland energy grid to the constant assault of taxes on our resources, the list of areas where resentment occurs with complete legitimacy is now so mired in union that the best method of fixing it is to vote it out. Accordingly, resolving union-specific issues for Scotland and England, leading to the resolution of country-specific problems in our two nations.

The revelations I read about led to an understanding of how to view unionist parliamentarians when they spoke, wrote and took action. It’s called observational cynicism. Observing what they don’t want you to know or ask.

Currently, the people of our nations are being sold a bill of goods, over and over again, blatantly meant to purposely mislead voters into believing an idea that makes the government seem all powerful, well beyond its own abilities and competence, in order to facilitate a façade. The people had to sign this blank cheque, not knowing the contents of the goods and were expected to immerse into the mindset of acting the part, having it rule their lives, and to protect it, no matter what the cost. This is the very definition of a con. An approach designed specifically to enhance the lives of government, while the people they represent are expected to believe that the government are entitled to that life, creating an atmosphere of hierarchy that divides the people.

This then, is not an opinion, but rather, this is the cold hard truth. An archaic idea based on the premise of a con. There are many shows on TV at the moment exposing the perpetrators of scams and cons, but the most elaborate one that is right in front of our eyes, is that the unionists are conning people, and it goes unnoticed. For their part the main stream media could certainly use a public bare-bottom spanking.

Within the current climate of politics in Scotland, all of the bits and bobs of it are being thrown in your face right now. The essence of the con does not require a microscope to view it, and couldn’t be more neon in nature or plastered more openly on a billboard. As such, it is affecting our life in a negative way, as it always has done.

So please tell me, if someone in your life or someone you knew of was being affected by this, how would you react?

My granddad always teased me by saying, “I don’t know where to hit you to save your life” In essence, this is exactly the problem that has arisen. All of you, intentional no voters and the undecided, need to understand that you don’t have to put up with any of this. This is not ‘Britishness’, it’s a mindset of arrogance. You can start living a life that is free from it.

Scotland’s people are undervalued, they are peripheral thoughts and Scotland’s resources are highly prized. The UK government and certain others view Scots as the summer’s midges, an annoyance in the ear and therefore to be treated as children on the playground. This is highlighted by the approach that the UK government has taken in the past and present with regards to what they tell us about our resources.

I’ve lived here under Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and now David Cameron so I am witness to how each one of them has treated Scotland.

Doesn't it make you wonder why supporters of independence have a passion for it? They can see all of this and the political patterns set by history as well as the present day conditions set by the parliamentarians. They feel that it is incumbent upon them to advise people of that history and what will be set in place for future generations should the UK government be allowed to continue in the manner to which they have become accustomed.

Independence supporters have the vision to see more effectively managed future resources and the ideas and energy to think further. Especially so, given Scotland's historic and present contributions to the world.

It's right in front of our eyes, crying out like a neon sign, "Where is your self- belief, your fight, your desire to make Scotland a nation that is revered as a country to live in?”. There is a world waiting for the people to make the choice to stand on our own two feet, so that others will make the choice to change not only their lives, but also the lives of the future generations.
A yes vote win will provide all encompassing changes, each in its own time. It will be written in books, that we were the catalyst for a myriad of positive developments on the world stage. Of this, I am completely confident. I believe so much in the people of Scotland that no amount of money or anything else would make me turn my back on them.

We need a no camp win like we need another world war. The union is archaic, dysfunctional and highly hypocritical. This see-sawing tactic has got to stop. The no camp comes out with ridiculous comment after audacious comment, spreading manure like a farmer does to pasture. They leave the nation thick with it, fuelling the worst of the human condition, in supposed debates.

Upon Independence, new policies will start working. Right now, they only exacerbate the issues and cause undue levels of incremental resentment. Scotland's people suffer the effects of problems not felt down south; the bedroom tax is one such example of the “let them eat cake” thinking. This is much like Canada and how it saw the effects when American financial systems went into meltdown. Canada would have been in absolute tatters had there been any kind of monetary or political union with the US or the UK. Much the same as Scotland is in tatters because of decisions made south of the border. It has to end.

The monetary issue of keeping the pound that the UK government is rattling cages with, is the best possible short-term policy to help the UK and allow Scotland to stand on its own feet and start to make its own way on the world stage. Canada achieved this on April 17th 1982 with the signing of the Canada Act by the Queen. Where is the new Governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney from? He is a Canadian and was the eighth Governor of the Bank of Canada and Chairman of the G20’s Financial Stability Board. It was stated that he was the best person in the world to be the new Governor of the Bank of England. There is no reason in the world that Scotland cannot take the same type of strategy and forward thinking to select the best candidate for the job of maintaining a solid and sound fiscal responsibility.

In summary, no doubt we will have our own specific date to be celebrating for centuries to come. The date when we become a viable, healthy, powerful nation contributing to the world on our own terms.

Posted by: wee davy 13th May 2013, 06:15am

Gordon S. Kerman for President!

What a refreshing, piece, which should gain the widest publicity.
I do hope he is ACTIVELY campaigning.

A rounded, and well thought out, interpretation of Scotland's ills, it's past problems, and where it might be, in the very near future.#

There are many signs of a clear and unmistakable pace to the YES coming
Youth are expressing it - business is expressing it - and above all, the people are expressing it.

I hope we can look forward to the new bank of England man, doing a bit of moonlighting lol

I have just one problem. I'd like to see where all this debate is going on?? For it sure as hell not being evident down here. I dont think there's a single unionist who could offer up a valid reason (on the evidence of the last 50 years - sorry - I keep repeating myself!) for Scotland remaining a chattel of Westminster.

THANK YOU SERABASH - keep spreading the word (as long as its not Lurpak!) Excellent find.

Posted by: DavidT 13th May 2013, 06:54am

Hi Serabash, where did you find this article (Gordon S. Kerman)? Is he from Radio Free Scotland (which I can't find now)? Has that bit the dust?

Anyway that was an interesting perspective.

Posted by: Dave Grieve 13th May 2013, 08:20am

The healthiest cities in the UK

Another 10 reasons to vote yes, why is there only one Scottish City in this list?


1) Bristol
2) Birmingham
3) Cardiff
4) Oxford
5 Edinburgh
6) Liverpool
7) London
8) Manchester
9) Sheffield
10) Southampton

Posted by: john.mcn 13th May 2013, 08:32am



Maybe because streets where there used to be a range of shops now house takeaways, off licenses and bookies?
I do believe the SNP are going down the right road to right this though, the minimum pricing on booze is a start and what will be to some a painful expensive road, what i hope follows is the taxing of foods that have a link to obesity, this is a ticking time bomb and it's only fair the cost of treatment comes out of the pockets of the ones gorging themselves. The other way is for the local authorities to limit the number of takeaways shops in a given area, it is a bit shocking and indicative of our society that takeaways far outweigh shops that sells fruit, veg, milk and bread.

Posted by: serabash 13th May 2013, 09:17am

QUOTE (DavidT @ 13th May 2013, 07:11am) *
Hi Serabash, where did you find this article (Gordon S. Kerman)? Is he from Radio Free Scotland (which I can't find now)? Has that bit the dust?

Anyway that was an interesting perspective.

david I am a member on glesga folks and bonny on there posted that article so I am sorry I don't know, but I will ask her where she found it. wink.gif I just felt it needs as much exposure as possible thumbup.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 13th May 2013, 09:36am

QUOTE (wee davy @ 13th May 2013, 06:32am) *
Gordon S. Kerman for President!

What a refreshing, piece, which should gain the widest publicity.
I do hope he is ACTIVELY campaigning.

THANK YOU SERABASH - keep spreading the word (as long as its not Lurpak!) Excellent find.


O wad some Power the gift tae gie us, To see oursels as ithers see us!

I can't remember if it was Burns or Dylan who came up with that laugh.gif

Posted by: wee davy 14th May 2013, 06:36pm

`I think there's something quite ironic, that the day after Mr Brown frae Fife throws his considerable weight behind the NO campaign, the next day he was exposed as FULLY responsible (amongst others) for Labours 'come one come all' policy, into the UK.

Yes. POLICY! (Mr Mandelson has admitted it)

Glaswegians - if THAT doesn't say something to you about LABOUR - then nothing will. Your automotons without a mind of your own, Cybermen, or Daleks!
PLEASE vote for the possibility of a bright new future for your children and grandchildren - I beg you.

Posted by: Mathieson 15th May 2013, 09:30am

Do you actually understand the meaning of "ironic"?

What, with you being a Scot living in North Yorkshire, ENGLAND (and presumably enjoying doing so) but professing your desire for your fellow Scots to vote to terminate the union with England?

"Ironic" indeed. laugh.gif


Posted by: wee davy 15th May 2013, 01:10pm

QUOTE (Mathieson @ 15th May 2013, 09:47am) *
Do you actually understand the meaning of "ironic"?

What, with you being a Scot living in North Yorkshire, ENGLAND (and presumably enjoying doing so) but professing your desire for your fellow Scots to vote to terminate the union with England?

"Ironic" indeed. laugh.gif


The irony I refer to, I think you perfectly understand, mattie.

As for a Scot expressing his view on any particular subject, I don't think it makes a blind bit of a difference where he makes it from. How do you know I'm not the guy who just arrived back from the ISS after playing 'Space Odyssey'?? unsure.gif

Nice to see you posting btw

Posted by: john.mcn 17th May 2013, 09:19am



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22566183

I'm all for the right to protest, but this wasn't one of them. This was mob mentality ironically shouting racist and go home at the same time. What ever happened to reason and debate to debunk a persons views, nowadays we just get some e-mates together to shout, intimidate and harass people we dont agree with.
I personally think that Farage is on the money with a lot of what he says regarding immigration , it needs to be controlled and it needs to be limited, this doesn't mean people born here of a different ethnicity aren't Scottish,English, Welsh or even British, frankly that some idiots link the two just shows that people should converse with others who hold different views and not try to shout them down or ban them. You cant understand people by ignoring them and if you cant understand them then you'll be ignoring a lot of people who agree with their views, thats how apathy sets in and governments get in with a small percentage of the vote.
Anyway i fully welcome parties of all opinions into the Scottish electoral system, it pointless calling for 'FREEDOM' when it's only for people you agree with.

Posted by: DavidT 17th May 2013, 10:08am

STV debate between Nicola Sturgeon and Michael Moore.
This went out on air last night 16th May 2013
http://m.stv.tv/news/politics/225688-nicola-sturgeon-and-michael-moore-clash-in-independence-debate/

Posted by: Guest 17th May 2013, 07:32pm

Farrage is a posh twit but the ones who trapped him the pub wer just rascist idiots.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 18th May 2013, 09:04am

QUOTE (Guest @ 17th May 2013, 07:49pm) *
Farrage is a posh twit but the ones who trapped him the pub wer just rascist idiots.


Would it have made any difference to you if he wasn't posh?

Why were those who protested against him racists?

Posted by: Guest 18th May 2013, 07:40pm

why were they rascist. ha. they were shouting about go home you english basket and stick ur union jack up your ass. theyr'e more like football hooligan than politicans. should of been jailed the lot of them.

Posted by: bilbo.s 18th May 2013, 10:11pm

That's what this forum was lacking- a bit of intellectual s(t)imulation! laugh.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 19th May 2013, 06:57am

QUOTE (Guest @ 18th May 2013, 07:57pm) *
why were they rascist. ha. they were shouting about go home you english basket and stick ur union jack up your ass. theyr'e more like football hooligan than politicans. should of been jailed the lot of them.


I believe one of those arrested was English so how can you be racist against your own nationality, as for them being more like " football hooligan than politicians", they were student's from the local university not politicians.

Don't waste too much sympathy on Mr Farage though, he got far more publicity than his political status in Scotland warrants.

Posted by: wee davy 19th May 2013, 08:26am

yeah, bilbo - some culture oan here is whits needed - perhaps Mr Farage would do us the honour of visiting us from time to time - we could scoof a few pints the gither!
THEN gie him the bums rush!

I admire his spunk, awe the same.
Its a wunner he didnae get a malkie.

He'll 'no be back again' in a hurry lol

Posted by: serabash 19th May 2013, 09:43am

another wee post I had to pass on,
Scottish independence, what's the story? by Jock Campbell

Many Canadians are under the impression that the Scottish independence campaign shares some commonality with the separatist campaign of the Bloc Quebecois... nothing could be further from the truth!


In fact, the ONLY similarities between the two political campaigns, is that both societies have the fundamental right to assert national sovereignty, a right enshrined in international law... and of course, the fact that both nations exist within British Commonwealth states.


Beyond these similarities, the two nations exist in very different circumstances... geographically as well as politically and thus should not be referred to in the same context. Indeed, I wonder if, had Quebec occupied some promontory of land that jutted from the Canadian mainland, or was in fact an island off the country's eastern or northern seaboards, if Canadians wouldn't really care too much whether Quebec separated or not?! But for the fact that the province of Quebec slices down through Canada, their proposed separation possibly cutting their beloved country in two... this changes things markedly.

The case for Scotland is that it is a promontory at the northern extreme of the British Isles, our independence effects our politics alone.


So the issue is entirely a political one.

In order for Canadians to gain a good basic understanding of Scottish politics, particularly what has led to the rise in popularity of the Scottish National Party, I have set out below a broad overview. I hope you enjoy...

-----------------------------------------------------
There may be a perception among our Canadian friends, that since the UK is a collection of separate countries governed under one parliament, that the UK operates a federal style political system the way Canada does. This is not the case.


In fact, Westminster (in London) operates as the primary seat of governance and fiscal control for the whole of the UK (that's England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland). Collecting all revenues, whether gathered through taxation or national production into a common pot. The government then allocates a proportion of the total of those funds to each of the four "regions" (those regions are in fact countries in their own right, but thanks to Westminster's ambitions to rule over the entire UK as a singular nation, they refer to these countries as "regions").


Scotland's share of UK funds are calculated using the 'Barnett Formula', a method developed by Lord Joel Barnett in the late 1970s. The formula however, does not take into account any increases in Scottish revenue performance, so Scotland could, theoretically, either work like a lazy dog, or work like a well-oiled revenues machine, raking in Billions for the treasury... it doesn't effect the block grant Scotland receives.


This is considered the great con of the Barnett formula, as it was in the mid 1970s that vast amounts of high-quality oil and gas were found below Scottish waters. This discovery lifted Scotland into another economic league. Effectively, Scotland become the 4th richest nation (per capita) on earth. It is not unreasonable to compare Scotland's oil wealth with that of Kuwait. However, the Scottish people saw no direct benefits of the oil discovery, save for an increase in industry on the east coast as Aberdeen became the oil capital of Scotland. But the true value of the oil and gas was kept a closely guarded secret, and has little real effect on quality of life in Scotland.


A report submitted to the British government in 1974 by professor Gavin McCrone, highlighted the "embarrassing" wealth that Scotland now had under its sea bed, however, the report was labelled "secret" and buried from public view. The document eventually came into public view in 2004 on the back of new laws designed to release government documents after a thirty year period.


A full transcript of the report is available here:http://www.oilofscotland.org/mccronereport.pdf


The oil, we were told, would run out in thirty years time. Certainly... the oil in the fields currently being tapped would run dry... but there are still hundreds of fields awaiting development!



The British government along with the media moguls of the day colluded to hide the truth from Scotland... and they were successful. While London became the most powerful banking city on earth, Scotland's industries were closed down, our infrastructure ignored.


Since then, Scotland has become akin to a third-world country, existing within the boundaries of what some would believe to be a first-world state. The state broadcaster, the BBC, has all but ignored Scottish cultural life. Their news reports make much noise of the negatives of Scottish life, while playing down our many achievements, labelling them "British" successes... whilst highlighting any murder or social ill as typical of Scottish life... such as alcohol abuse, which is no more prevalent here than it is in any other developed western country.

The Scottish nation has been browbeat with these negative stereotypes for two generations now... and it has an effect on health and well-being within our country, as indeed does the lack of infrastructure investment. Our housing is of poor quality, our wages provide little in disposable income to enjoy life to the full, our children have little choice but to leave in order to build themselves a gainful career.

Things have improved, but only very slightly since devolution gave Scotland its first parliament in 300 years... but in truth the Holyrood parliament is only a bit-player when it comes to real power. It controls but 8% of Scotland's economic assets... not a drop of the oil or gas... and yet, in it's short life it has made a difference. Despite the best efforts of the 'unionist' parties (parties dedicated to the United Kingdom's continuance at any cost... not to be confused with trade unions), the SNP administration in Edinburgh's newly devolved parliament has shown- dramatically- what can be achieved with good fiscal management.


For over 100 years now, the Scottish National Party has campaigned to have Scotland's parliament restored to full sovereignty. Today they could wield the massive oil wealth for the benefit of the Scottish nation rather than propping up a deeply flawed Westminster administration. In 2011 they won their first majority government... in a political system designed to prevent a majority from being returned! They wiped the Scottish political scenery clean of the London-controlled unionist parties, asserting Scotland's strong individual political idealism.

The vote followed another familiar pattern to British politics... that Scotland voted almost completely for one party, yet had to forebear another party having full control in London. This democratic deficit highlights the futility of Scotland's endeavours and the vast schism in British political life. We Scots hold differing values to those of London, but we must endure whomsoever the English nation elect to govern.

Since coming to power in Holyrood, the SNP have tailored their policies to better reflect Scottish social attitudes and despite having control of very little, they have nonetheless shown Scotland what CAN be achieved on our own behalf.

Looking to the future, the SNP have laid out a bold but realistic vision. Scotland's goegraphical position lends itself nicely to the use of a range renewable energy sources, including wind, wave, hydro and tidal generation. We've already made much of hydro and wind generation but there is room for more. With the new developments in tidal and wave energy bolstering an already impressive array of green energy strategies, Scotland is confident of producing all the energy we need from renewable sources. Any excess generated through carbon and nuclear processes can be sold off for a substantial profit. And let's not mention the vast array of fuels and hydrocarbon products from the oil we extract from the seas around our country. Yes, Scotland is and will be an energy rich nation for generations to come... oil or not.

So you see, Scotland's move toward independence isn't a selfish, blinkered romanticism that holds on to the past, it is a forward-thinking, positive endeavour to make the best use of our economic wealth and political wisdom to make Scottish lives better.

Jock.


www.oilofscotland.org/mccronereport.pdf

www.oilofscotland.org


Posted by: farrochie 19th May 2013, 10:12am

People have the right to demonstrate particularly when it is against what the PM, David Cameron, has called "fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists, mostly".

In spite of the face of the reasonable English chap, with a fag in his mouth and a pint in his hand, Farage is leading a party that has racist tendencies. Simple way to cover this up? Farage accuses the demonstrators of being racist and anti-English. What a joke, the leader of the demonstration and some participants then come out and tell us they are English themselves.

The Radical Independence Campaign were within their rights to demonstrate against Farage. The Edinburgh "mob" used to be famous for its political and religious protest, never holding back when Scotland's leaders needed to be reminded where the power lies.

john.mcn You say that "Farage is on the money with a lot of what he says". Now that is something that could be said about many unsavoury characters. Dig a bit deeper and you'll find UKIP and its members are from the extreme right, not a political philosophy that has ever been popular in Scotland. They have the right of free speech, as have those who oppose them to make their views known.

Posted by: john.mcn 19th May 2013, 02:23pm



I dont give a rats ass where someone places a person views on the political spectrum, if i have views on a subject they are my own and if it so happens those views are similar to a famous or indeed infamous persons, be it Ghandi, James maxton, Nick Griffin or Thatcher, then so be it and i wont be deterred in my views just because some unpopular person shares them.

I'm all for freedom of speech but a mob shouting down someone is not speech, surrounding him and preventing his transport leaving to me is criminal, add to that he was assaulted then it looks like affray. Farage was probably bricking it, if this is free speech can the BNP now gather at the local shop and scream abuse at it's owners because they dont like their political religious ideology ?

The irony is i bet these 'students' consider themselves tolerant, except when it comes to people who hold different views to themselves of course.

Posted by: Guest 19th May 2013, 02:34pm

Who likes this Farrage then - not me? That does'nt mean we shooud let hooligans trap him in a pub and shout rascist rubbish at him. They let thereselves down and the argument they were meant to be making. How you can make excuses for that I do'nt know.

Posted by: and riationu 19th May 2013, 02:37pm

And well said John.mcn.
They were just bullies and neds.

Posted by: Alex Saville 19th May 2013, 08:05pm

Farage is entitled to his views, which many people in Scotland share.
The yobs who accosted him were a bunch of rabble rousers. Internationalists, they describe themselves as, who believe we should open the doors to anyone who wants to come here.
They surrounded the taxi but the police only manage to make two arrests. Heads should roll there.

I notice on todays BBC Scotland News website that the SNP's Humza Yousaf criticises UK Immigration Policies.
No wonder Salmond refused to condemn the yobs who surrounded Farage, his External Affairs Minister is telling the world that Scottish Society is united in opposition to the UK's restrictive approach to immigration.
I wonder which part of 'Scottish Society' he refers too?
Does he mean the part that thinks like him, the Politically Correct part?
I wonder how many people he will put off voting 'Yes' next year because of his latest statement.
Alex

Posted by: wombat 19th May 2013, 09:04pm

QUOTE (Alex Saville @ 19th May 2013, 09:22pm) *
Farage is entitled to his views, which many people in Scotland share.
The yobs who accosted him were a bunch of rabble rousers. Internationalists, they describe themselves as, who believe we should open the doors to anyone who wants to come here.
They surrounded the taxi but the police only manage to make two arrests. Heads should roll there.

I notice on todays BBC Scotland News website that the SNP's Humza Yousaf criticises UK Immigration Policies.
No wonder Salmond refused to condemn the yobs who surrounded Farage, his External Affairs Minister is telling the world that Scottish Society is united in opposition to the UK's restrictive approach to immigration.
I wonder which part of 'Scottish Society' he refers too?

smile.gif probably the majority alex yes.gif


Does he mean the part that thinks like him, the Politically Correct part?
I wonder how many people he will put off voting 'Yes' next year because of his latest statement.
Alex


Posted by: john.mcn 19th May 2013, 09:04pm



Alex i could count on the one hand the people i know that thought immigration during the past 15 years or so was a good thing and those were not long out of Uni and quite frankly were idiots when it came to the 'real world', hell my sister was dating an immigrant and even he thought the 'let anybody in policy' was a joke.
I dont have a problem with the best and brightest coming here, i do have a problem with bringing in people who will compete for jobs with people born here, that includes any born here BTW. So top graduates, doctors, people at the top of the top professions, only a moron would say they wont be a benefit to the country, but low or medium skilled workers sorry but we have enough of those.
I'm not saying close the doors forever, just long enough to gauge what future problems we're facing 10 or 20 years down the line.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 19th May 2013, 09:07pm

An interesting interview with former Labour Chancellor Denis Healey in which he admits the value of North sea oil was deliberately underplayed to try and stave off the threat of Scottish nationalism in the 70's and even now he say's of an independent England,

“I think we would suffer enormously if the income from Scottish oil stopped but if the Scots want it [independence] they should have it and we would just need to adjust but I would think Scotland could survive perfectly well, economically, if it was independent. Yes, I would think so… with the oil.”

Full interview here http://www.holyrood.com/2013/05/still-raising-eyebrows/

Posted by: JAGZ1876 19th May 2013, 09:18pm

QUOTE (Alex Saville @ 19th May 2013, 08:22pm) *
Farage is entitled to his views, which many people in Scotland share.
The yobs who accosted him were a bunch of rabble rousers.

I wonder how many people he will put off voting 'Yes' next year because of his latest statement.
Alex


I would disagree that many in Scotland share Farage's views, and the "rabble rousers" played into Farage's hands to give him an excuse to launch into an Anti Scottish independence tirade.

As for your last point, not many.

Posted by: wombat 19th May 2013, 09:20pm

rolleyes.gif wunner what he meant when he said England would have to'' adjust'.


' (start drillin in the falklands? ) smile.gif

Posted by: seamus1954 20th May 2013, 03:38am

QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 9th Jan 2013, 07:54am) *
There are numerous good reasons to stay with the Union.

How could Scotland survive without the House of Lords.

We surely dont have the savvy to run the country without the guidance of London Politicians.

We dont have enough money in the kitty to pay for the whole country to be on benifits

We need the London goverment to pay for those benifits.

The reason we need the London goverment to pay those benifits is because we are a nation of scroungers and drunks that need guidance from our southern neighbours.

North sea oil is going to run out some time this century and what will we do without the London Goverment to fall back on.

We need the annual hounours list to pretend to the nation that we are appreciated by the rest of the Union.

Scotland is incapable of running its own armed forces without the London goverment.

Scotland is to wee.

Scotland is to poor.

Scotland is to (fill in your own excuse)

Scotland needs the London goverment to take people of benifits when it gets itself into another war and calls our sons up to be used as cannon fodder

There must be many more reasons for staying in the Union but I'm sure all the Unionists on the board can list them.

Dave hey hi Tongue firmly in cheek I love it all the best how the ell you've been

Posted by: JAGZ1876 20th May 2013, 06:11am

QUOTE (wombat @ 19th May 2013, 09:37pm) *
rolleyes.gif wunner what he meant when he said England would have to'' adjust'.


' (start drillin in the falklands? ) smile.gif


I took it as he think's an independent England would have to cut it's cloth accordingly, it would save £billions cutting back on defence alone (scrapping the next generation of Trident for eg) by losing the World power ego, and concentrate on her own domestic issue's, and yes Wombat, Westminster will be well aware of any natural resources in the waters surrounding the Falkland Islands.

Posted by: wee davy 20th May 2013, 07:46am

They're already drilling

Posted by: bilbo.s 20th May 2013, 12:16pm

Another excellent article:-

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/why-did-the-banks-only-become-scottish-after-they-failed/

Posted by: JAGZ1876 20th May 2013, 12:33pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 20th May 2013, 12:33pm) *
Another excellent article:-

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/why-did-the-banks-only-become-scottish-after-they-failed/


"Why did the banks only become Scottish – after they failed?"

For the same reason our sportsmen and woman become Scottish when they lose laugh.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 20th May 2013, 04:28pm

More debunking of UK government lies:-

http://www.yesscotland.net/treasury_paper_not_an_accurate_reflection_of_scotlands_financial_services

Posted by: JAGZ1876 21st May 2013, 07:29am

You would think that at least one person who supports the Anti Scottish independence campaign would come on and challenge what those of us who support a YES vote have been posting.

I just wish one of them would come on an tell us why the intend to vote NO.

It can't be that Scotland is too poor.

With the undisputed evidence of the McCrone report plus the admission of former Chancellor of the Exchequer Denis Healey that his and subsequent Westminster governments have lied to the people of Scotland over how much money that North sea oil was really generating, who from the mid 70's onward openly called the SNP and anyone who supported Scottish self determination liars for revealing the true value of the oil............How does that old saying go again?........Oh, that's right, "Once a liar, always a liar.

Even today, neither Cameron, Miliband or Clegg use that tired old chestnut of an excuse anymore, yet some Scottish unionists still do, why?

So come on all you unionists out there, if it isn't about finance, what are you worried about.

Or will you blindly vote NO regardless of how much better off Scotland would be?

Posted by: wee davy 21st May 2013, 09:31am

Its not peculiar to this forum, jagz.
EVERYTHING (which isn't a lot) I've seen or heard down here, is the same. A reluctance to discuss ANY issues.
Which is even stranger still, when you think it DOES have an impact upon the rest of the UK.
The only thing I do hear, is a resounding 'its their decision,... good luck to them. In fact there are areas of England which want independence from a government who consistently does'nt come up with the goods - regardless of whether their red, blue, or yellow.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 24th May 2013, 10:29am

Scottish Labour MSP Ken Macintosh attacks a Scottish government grant awarded to Amazon unaware that his party colleague MSP Helen Eadie had called for the grant as Amazon bring a significant volume of jobs to her constituency in Fife.

Not only did he not know that Amazon were awarded support by the former Labour administration in Scotland but he was also blissfully unaware that the Labour controlled Welsh assembly led by Labour's Welsh FM Carwyn Jones had been boasting of their success and role in attracting Amazon investment to Wales.

The clip can be viewed below but i doubt Mr Macintosh will want to watch it again, it's just as well the Anti Scottish independence media led by the impartial BBC has let the people of Scotland down once again by ignoring this and then editing FM questions to make Johann Lamont's rant's look as though the FM has no answers.

The people of Scotland deserve better.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8mhSdN4I9gA

I wonder when he had his Homer Simpson moment when he slapped his forehead as he said "DOH", and the look on Helen Eadie's face was priceless.

Posted by: DavidT 31st May 2013, 12:25pm

ONS video with statistics about wealth distribution.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGdRM3C_wjc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Posted by: JAGZ1876 31st May 2013, 01:45pm

I don't think anyone would be surprised to learn that the highest percentage of households in the UK were in the South East of England while Scotland has the least, perhaps some of the Better Together posters can come on and tell us just how exactly we are better together in this unequal union.

Speaking of unequal unions, it's quite comical to see now they divide the country into North and South, with the South covering the bottom 150 miles of the country and the North covering the remaining 700 miles.

Were all part of the one Nation..................You're having a laugh.

Vote YES next year thumbup.gif

Posted by: CAT 31st May 2013, 02:29pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 31st May 2013, 01:53pm) *
Were all part of the one Nation..................You're having a laugh.

Vote YES next year thumbup.gif


Tell you what for an undecided this thread puts up a good case for yes. Maybe I'm jist a fearty Cat laugh.gif
Either way we have to vote apathy is not an option.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 31st May 2013, 03:29pm

QUOTE (CAT @ 31st May 2013, 02:37pm) *
Tell you what for an undecided this thread puts up a good case for yes. Maybe I'm jist a fearty Cat laugh.gif
Either way we have to vote apathy is not an option.


You are quite correct Cat, next years vote is far to important for apathy, we owe it to future generations to get it right regardless of the outcome, in my own opinion a YES vote is the only sensible option for the reasons that have been made on this and other threads on GG over the last two years or so, i'm sure some NO voters will be on to tell you why you should vote NO.

And don't be a fearty cat, be a confident independent tail in the air Cat biggrin.gif

Vote YES next year thumbup.gif

Posted by: wee davy 31st May 2013, 04:02pm

BE A SOPHISTICAT, INSTEAD wink.gif

Posted by: angel 31st May 2013, 05:39pm


Tell you what for an undecided this thread puts up a good case for yes. Maybe I'm jist a fearty Cat
Either way we have to vote apathy is not an option.
.........................

You are so right Cat , indeed , apathy is not an option ,
when I talk with my friends and family member in Scotland , they most definately give this referendum a lot of thought and consideration and have come up with the opinion , that , everyone is listening too or reading the same
political hype , because that is what politics' is all about .
So Cats do'nt be too influenced , by what you read on this board , regarding this referendum . and don't let those post's influence your vote or make you feel bad .
A , no vote on anyone's part does not make you or they a big fearty ,
remember this when you decide to vote .

Do what you believe is better for your country .








Posted by: wee davy 31st May 2013, 06:03pm

Your last sentence is so accurate, angel.

Its about what Scotland decides.

Not old political/historical divides.

Board members in the mass majority. simply, and consistently bat back the lies, scaremongering, and outright intimidation which originates from Westminster (and other vested interests).

You will note, CAT, wherever you go on here, NO voters have been time and time again been asked to join in the debate. They have made they're choice to keep Scotland firmly at the bottom of the wealth ladder, within a UK, dedicated to keeping the South East of England, prosperous.

If you don't believe me, believe my brother (who lives and worked in Kent)
He freely admits, and offers no argument for the way things are, and in no way will change, following a NO vote. (he agrees - and was a former 'part of the Establishment)

Be Brave. Let your heart rule your head. Do it for Love!

(My current avatar, really does remind me of me!! lol)

Posted by: john.mcn 31st May 2013, 06:05pm

QUOTE (CAT @ 31st May 2013, 02:37pm) *
Tell you what for an undecided this thread puts up a good case for yes. Maybe I'm jist a fearty Cat laugh.gif
Either way we have to vote apathy is not an option.



Some on this board would try to paint a terrible picture of post independent Scotland, some of those dont even live here but still want a say in how WE are governed.
I'm not going to try to persuade you how to vote, all i ask of anyone who lives here and has the vote is to make an informed decision The YES camp here will post links and info that will obviously show that Scotland gets the shitty end of the stick a lot of times, the NO camp will post....... errr, have they posted ? wink.gif if you've read through the thread/s then you could look further into any info anyone has posted, dont take my/jagz/bilbo/wee davys and the others words for it, check it out yourself. Make an informed decision come the day and do it unafraid of the consequences.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 31st May 2013, 06:24pm

QUOTE (angel @ 31st May 2013, 05:47pm) *
Do what you believe is better for your country .


Absolutly spot on, good advice Angel thumbup.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 31st May 2013, 06:35pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 31st May 2013, 06:11pm) *
Be Brave. Let your heart rule your head. Do it for Love!

(My current avatar, really does remind me of me!! lol)


On the contrary wee davy, don't let your heart rule your head, the figures show that Scotland will be better off with self determination, it really is a no brainer, it's the fear of losing the old Empire that's tugging at the unionists heartstrings, but the sun has long set on the Empire, time to move on.

Really...........You look like Lord Kitchener?

Posted by: JAGZ1876 31st May 2013, 06:43pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 31st May 2013, 06:13pm) *
if you've read through the thread/s then you could look further into any info anyone has posted, dont take my/jagz/bilbo/wee davys and the others words for it, check it out yourself. Make an informed decision come the day and do it unafraid of the consequences.


John's right Cat, the truth is out there, yes read other peoples views and opinions, but do your own research as well, the internet is a wonderful tool to use to weigh up the pro's and con's to reach your own decision.

I won't tell you to vote YES next year Cat......You deside thumbup.gif

Posted by: wee davy 31st May 2013, 07:11pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 31st May 2013, 06:43pm) *
On the contrary wee davy, don't let your heart rule your head, the figures show that Scotland will be better off with self determination, it really is a no brainer, it's the fear of losing the old Empire that's tugging at the unionists heartstrings, but the sun has long set on the Empire, time to move on.

Really...........You look like Lord Kitchener?


Sometimes people (CAT may be one) who struggle with decisions maybe based upon gut instinct.
All I'm saying is ... listen to your heart. It might just be right. We spout a lot of information, but it is OK to feel patriotic/nationalistic/tribal whatever you want to call it.

When I was younger, jagz LOL

Posted by: Jim D 1st Jun 2013, 09:13am

Like most people in Scotland, i am undecided at this time. I want truth from politicians - a tough ask!

I am selfish in that I want to know how much independence will cost me. Like many other people, I have paid taxes since I was 16. Since retiring from my career I am fortunate to have a pension but also have another job, as I have 2 sons who are trying their best to get a foothold on a career.

I want to know how much more I will be asked to pay. I do not want a reduced standard of living.

I am not alone in this.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 1st Jun 2013, 10:41am

QUOTE (Jim D @ 1st Jun 2013, 09:21am) *
Like most people in Scotland, i am undecided at this time. I want truth from politicians - a tough ask!

I am selfish in that I want to know how much independence will cost me. Like many other people, I have paid taxes since I was 16. Since retiring from my career I am fortunate to have a pension but also have another job, as I have 2 sons who are trying their best to get a foothold on a career.

I want to know how much more I will be asked to pay. I do not want a reduced standard of living.

I am not alone in this.


I can understand your concerns Jim D, if you are asking will you be paying more in income tax than the rUK the answer would most certainly be no, if you want a definite answer as to what the tax rate will be in 2016 then you are asking an impossible question unless you know someone with a crystal ball, if you don't believe me then ask George Osborne what the tax rate will be in 2016.

If you mean a reduced state pension then the answer is once again no, pensioners in Scotland will have at least the same if not better pension than their rUK counterparts.

As for your own personal pension this will remain unaffected as these matters are decided by international law and international treaties, which the UK has already signed up to.

It is more than likely that your pension is with a Scottish based company, but even if it isn't your covered by the above paragraph.

All these questions you asked were answered in detail in a White Paper published by the Scottish Government in 2009, but as i was telling Cat yesterday you have to do a bit of research as the unionist media tries to bury any information that shows independence in a good light.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/293639/0090721.pdf

As for providing a career for your sons, ask yourself what opportunities has Westminster provided for the youth of Scotland over the last 30 years?

If you think that Scotland being independent and in charge of our own affairs is not normal and that we need to constanly produce proof that we are capable of doing what every other normal country takes for granted on a daily basis, then maintaining this extraordinary, indeed surreal, state of the UK ought to require an extraordinary standard of proof, yet the positive case for the Union is most notable for its absence.

Remember Jim D, a NO vote next year will most definitely see your standard of living reduced when George Osborne's promise of a decade of austerity kick's in.

For your own selfish sake Jim and more importantly for the sake of your son's.

Vote YES next year.

Posted by: Isobel 1st Jun 2013, 07:03pm

I have lived in Canada for over 40 years. I paid into my British pension plan,so I do have a small pension from Britain.Can you tell me how that might affect my pension. Also having been born in Scotland do I have the right to a vote.If I did it would definitely be a big YES.
I dont think things could be any worse for the working man and woman in Scotland.My husband is English and he even says the Scots have always been treated as second class citizens as far as Westminster was concerned.
PLEASE PLEASE VOTE YES.Have the guts to do it.

Posted by: wee davy 1st Jun 2013, 08:43pm

It really depends on who pays your pension,Isobel, Whether your talking about a state one, civil, or private.
The state and civil one's ought to remain 'as was' for the likes of yourself.
Some companies will probably 'try it on', and change how it is calculated. It would still be a very small change. Just my theory, for what its worth.I'm sorry to say we expats dont get a vote (I suspect it would be an overwhelming YES, if they had allowed us).
My spies are telling me the campaign is doing well - but remember - walls have ears lol

Posted by: angel 2nd Jun 2013, 02:36am


From this Expats opinion , voting on this referendon has
nothing to do with gutlessness or , scaredy cat'isim ' huh.gif
IT HAS SIMPLY TO DO WITH .." AM I SATISFIED WITH THE STATIS QUO OR NO " and will living in Scotland {as a separate country }'" May I add , " in every sense of the word ".. be better than being part of the UK. and for those who have a vote, , it is one Helluva decison 'Yes Or No." and most definately nothing to do with gutlessness .

If I lived in Scotland at this time , I honestly am not to sure
as to how I would vote , but I most definately take umbridge at
one or two members , who try to shove on these boards , their opinions down the throat's of other members .
We all read the same Political trype , and this , through experience in my life,
gives the voter the right to vote yes or no 'in this referendom , without being called a scaredy cat or other words to the same effect ,because they do not agree with your politics sounds like democracy is on it's way out on this topic .














Posted by: angel 2nd Jun 2013, 07:32am

but I most definately take umbridge

should be umbradge .



Posted by: john.mcn 2nd Jun 2013, 09:31am

How can someone shove their opinions down other peoples throat on a forum, if people dont like the independance discussion they are perfectly free not to view it, for the ones that are interested and want to expand their knowledge they can check out the opinions backed up by exterior links, it's unfortunate that the NO voters dont want to engage in dialogue, and put across their views and facts but that is hardly the fault of the YES voters.

The internet is the only place where a proper unbiased debate can take place, not being a resident here for however many decades you wont have a scooby about the hold the Unionists have on the Scottish media, many people have simply given up on it because it was perfectly clear(to me anyway) they became nothing more than a certain political parties mouthpiece.

A gentle ribbing and jocular name calling is hardly the end of democracy, it was even cat herself who said fearty cat rolleyes.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 2nd Jun 2013, 10:14am

QUOTE (angel @ 2nd Jun 2013, 02:44am) *
IT HAS SIMPLY TO DO WITH .." AM I SATISFIED WITH THE STATIS QUO OR NO "

but I most definately take umbridge at one or two members , who try to shove on these boards , their opinions down the throat's of other members .

We all read the same Political trype , and this , through experience in my life,
gives the voter the right to vote yes or no 'in this referendom , without being called a scaredy cat or other words to the same effect ,because they do not agree with your politics sounds like democracy is on it's way out on this topic .


As always it's good to read what the ex pats are thinking when it comes to the most important decision the people of Scotland have ever had to make.

I'm afraid there is a bit more to it than a simple "am i satisfied with the status quo or not", Angel

I'm not the biggest fan of opinion polls Angel, but they consistently return figures that show that the majority of the people do not favour the status quo, but not all of them favour independence either, the unionists tried to introduce Devo Max into the equation with hint's that a NO vote would mean that Westminster "May" grant more powers to Holyrood, but only if we vote NO first (Jam Tomorrow) the people of Scotland however remembered (as i'm sure you do too Angel) the promise of another Tory on eve of the 1979 Devolution referendum when the former Prime Minister Sir Alex Douglas Home urged Scots to vote NO, Sir Alec pledged that a future Conservative government would offer Scotland "something better".

However the "Something better" turned out to be Margaret Thatcher.
Mrs Thatcher's government refused to countenance any form of Scottish self-government, and subjected the country to almost 2 decades of monetarist policies which saw a massive rise in unemployment and the virtual destruction of Scottish industry, combined with unprecedented centralisation of power in Westminster.

I don't know who the one or two members are who you "take umbrage with" Angel but i have seen people debating on here and having heated arguments, but i can't say i have seen anyone trying to force their opinions down anyone's throat.

I don't know of anybody that has been called a scaredy cat, in fact the only person i saw use that remark was Cat a day or two ago when she was referring to herself.

As for democracy being on the way out, those of us on here who are campaigning for a YES vote for the very purpose of returning democracy to the people of Scotland, to give us the power to elect the government that we want, not who the English electorate want.

As for reading the same "Political Tripe", being so far away you are under the mistaken belief that both sides in this debate are given equal news time to get their points across, this i can assure you is wrong Angel.

The vast majority of the media is owned or controlled from England, so they are obviously going to push the unionist view, it is very hard to find a pro independence story, even when the Scottish government announces a jobs or investment increase the media find ways to turn it around as a bad thing eg new oil field discoveries are somehow bad, " Warning, oil is very volatile", another example is unionist politicians or experts! are given free rein to give out not only false information but downright lies without being asked to produce a single shred of evidence, whereas on the other hand any politician or member of the YES campaign is constantly interrupted and has to provide evidence for every statement given.

That is one of the reasons i urge undecided voters to do their own research before making their minds up.

I know you will be unaware of some of this Angel being so far away, but boards like these are very good at trying to even the playing field that like the union, is very one sided.

Take care Angel