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Glasgow Boards/Forums _ Glasgow News Blog _ Let's Have Our Own Referendum Now!

Posted by: GG 15th Oct 2012, 10:24pm

An historic agreement setting out the terms for a Scottish independence referendum was signed today by Prime Minister David Cameron and First Minister Alex Salmond.

The agreement, struck in Edinburgh, paves the way for a vote in autumn 2014, with a single Yes/No question on Scotland leaving the UK.

It will also allow 16 and 17-year-olds to take part in the ballot.

Rather than wait for 2014, it was suggested on the boards that we should have our own referendum today ... so here it is! Just answer the single yes/no question below.

Also, tells us your views on whether you think Scots living abroad should get a vote in the referendum in 2014?

GG.

Posted by: Jennifer Hutt 15th Oct 2012, 11:08pm

I cannot see anywhere to vote.

Posted by: GG 15th Oct 2012, 11:13pm

Hi Jennifer,

You should see the voting options in the first post above. However, you do need Flash installed to see the poll – this is the technology the poll runs on. If you don't have Flash, you will probably see a list of adverts.

You can download Flash for your browser here:

http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/otherversions/

Hopefully, you will then be able to vote.

GG.

Posted by: laura j 15th Oct 2012, 11:29pm

Not while alec salmonds involved - couldnt see extra poll re-ex pats - no they shouldnt.

Posted by: GG 15th Oct 2012, 11:38pm

Thanks Laura, there's no vote for that, it was just inviting discussion on whether ex-pats should be given the right to vote in the referendum. I've changed the wording above to make it a bit clearer.

GG.

Posted by: Noonan McKane 15th Oct 2012, 11:40pm

My answer to the secondary question is: No. Absolutely not. No ex pat of anywhere should be entitled to vote in elections held in their home nation. To me it's a total no-brainer; I can scarcely believe it when I hear people argue in favour of it. What right does a person who lives in Canada or New Zealand have to a say in how I get governed? I might as well say I want a vote in the next Spanish general election, so I can make sure it's all nice and tidy when I go there for my holidays.

It's even more amazing to hear recent arguments against prisoners retaining their voting rights. (usually from the same sort of folk who argue FOR Joe & Agnes of Vancouver to vote for Westminster and Holyrood..!) Prisoners are still citizens, are still certainly liable to taxation in some, probably many, of it's forms, and of course not all guilty of the crimes for which they've been convicted. If we insist on stripping prisoners of their vote, I'd insist no police officer on the South Yorkshire force be allowed to vote again, ever. Or get their bins emptied. Fair's fair.

So, it's 'no' from me.

Posted by: Bonny 15th Oct 2012, 11:51pm

YESSSSSSSSSSSSS thumbup.gif

From a friend

For all those that think Scotland couldn't go it alone......

Scotland has:
1. 90% of the North Sea continental shelf under international law
2. Almost half of the entire EU renewable potential (onshore, offshore and tidal)
3. 50%+/- of the entire global subsea engineering expertise
4. A booming biomedicine, pharmaceutical and genetics industry
5. More patents per head of population than any other part of the UK, second only to Germany in the EU
6. A booming food exports market
7. A booming whisky industry
8. A booming software industry
9. A smaller population than London, but equal productivity (richest part of entire UK outside London)
10. And while the UK saw a drop in tourism in 2012, even with the Olympics, our visitor rate increased by 7%

Oh, and lets not forget - fresh water, the commodity of the future.

We could finance ourselves solely on the income we earn selling water to drought-ridden UK. Unlike parts of England, when Scots drink a glass of tap water, we know it'll be the first and last time that water will be drank. I believe the average glass of London tap water has passed through a human being and been reprocessed at least 7 times? Correct me if I'm wrong...

Posted by: angel 15th Oct 2012, 11:53pm

As an Ex.Pat., I do not think that we should vote in / on this referendum , allowed or not .

Leave those domiciled in Scotland to do whatever they wish , it is they who live there , I am a Canadian with my Canadian Passport and thats enough for me .

As long as I can visit when I have the mind to do so , I'm satisfied .

Posted by: RDP 15th Oct 2012, 11:54pm

We will never be truly independent; all we will do is swap control from London to the Hague. If you don't live here and pay taxes then you don't get a vote, plain and simple.

Posted by: Bonny 15th Oct 2012, 11:54pm


Posted by: Bonny 15th Oct 2012, 11:58pm



Dear Independence Supporter

As organiser of the 2012 March and Rally I am dismayed, but not at all surprised, by the utterly inaccurate reporting by several newspapers regarding the figures reported as turnout for last Saturday and also the negative headlines with which they used the March and Rally to attack the Scottish Government.

The facts are that our attendance was 9,500. That is the reality, not the extremely inaccurate and adhoc method employed by an 'official' at the Meadows. This figure was derived by a cursory glance and calculation based on that glance - from the top if our bus!

Of course the media are, by and large, only to happy to seize upon any opportunity to attack the Scottish Government and in the past few months we have witnessed the intensification of that wholly unprofessional behaviour. Previously it barely passed as journalistic reporting but now it more closely resembles the press office of the NO CAMPAIGN.

In particular the Scotsman and DC Thomson have recently thrown to the wind any attempts to cover their contempt for fair and balanced reporting.

Recently we have seen senior journalists move positions from the Scotsman to DC Thomson, etc and as a result what was once a company that rose above the gutter press in Scotland has now joined the growing band of media outlets which take their orders from the boardroom - a boardroom which invariably has connections to the Conservative party. Whilst this is no surprise to us, and of course many of yourselves, what is distasteful is the collusion of the Labour party working together with the Tories in Scotland.

Each has a different reason but essentially it is to serve their own self-interests. The debate of what independence offers Scotland is ignored as the spend all their time colluding together to release the latest scare story, often including lies.

It's inevitable that these negative and relentless attacks will intensify in their frequency and voracity - reporting the truth is not even a passing consideration for the Courier in Dundee or The Scotsman any more.

It is OUR responsibility to fight back.

Posted by: Yalnig 15th Oct 2012, 11:59pm

The reason I would vote no at this time for an Independant Scotland, it purely Salmond the Grasper, He participated as an Mp for both England and Scotland purely for monetary reasons. Any decent Scotsman would have been content with Scotish Parliament only. I firmly believe that the vote and the 16 and 17 year old vote, is purely for his own benefit and his eye on a future position in Belgium where the big bucks is after he beats it from the Scottish Scene, just like Neil Kinnock.

Posted by: Bonny 16th Oct 2012, 12:09am



Calling London - by Matt O'Neill.

What price did you pay for our nation,
When you dealt in political sleaze?
Well the price that you paid has been more than defrayed,
By the oil that you took from our seas.

How long did you think you could hold us?
How long would we play Britain’s whore?
Now we've broken the spell, sounded Liberty’s bell,
We’re the poor man of Europe no more.

The further you travel from London,
The thinner the jam will be spread,
When the border is crossed all the flavour is lost,
With the Highlanders eating dry bread.

When’s the last time you opened the window?
When’s the last time you let in the light?
Your empire is dead, get it into your head,
It went quietly into the night.

Now you’re planning to buy nuclear weapons,
An attempt to impress all your friends?
But the poor have to pay without having a say,
Maybe soon you will reach your world’s end.

You never could learn from your errors,
Never saw past your own urban sprawl,
But with Britain astern, maybe now you will learn,
Greed and ignorance was your downfall.

Now the northern shires of old England,
Look set to down tools and rebel,
How long will it take for their patience to break?
The clock’s ticking but no one can tell.

Posted by: Libisa 16th Oct 2012, 12:12am

For years, I always said no to independence as I always believed in the Union (by the way I was raised and still am a loyalist). But the way this whole country is being ruined by consecutive Westminster governments has turned me round.

I am placing a load of trust on Salmond to deliver the goods. The first thing I want back, is rights over our own oil and gas reserves. Westminster sold this to foreign powers who in turn sell it back to us at inflated prices.

We have no choice in the matter now, as things will only get worse if we remain part of the UK. As say, it is a chance we take and a big gamble at that. But we could be damned if we do, and certainly damned if we don't!

Posted by: Bonny 16th Oct 2012, 12:25am

Mc Crone Report - Top Secret

www.oilofscotland.org

Posted by: Bonny 16th Oct 2012, 12:40am

Oil Of Scotland

End poverty in Scotland - register to cast your vote in early 2014. We understand that many Scots avoid the electoral roll due to debt collection agencies etc using the electoral roll to track them down and demand they pay when they are unable to. In early 2014 it is important that all Scots register to vote as they are the people who would benefit most from Independence. As in an Independent Scotland we will have a chance to re write the way the unfair system works as it currently enforces poverty and does not make it worthwhile for low paid Scots to get a job.

The only way we as people will ever be given the right to vote on whether we remain part of the disfunctional EU, that costs each of us nearly £300 a year. Would be if we obtain Independence for Scotland as Westminster unlike Ireland would never give the people the respect of voting on the EU or the treaties rogues like Tony Blair signed on our behalf.

We believe that the SNP should declare that in an Independent Scotland the people of Scotland would be given a second ballot paper when they go to the polls 6 months after Independence is declared to vote on the Government who will govern Scotland. It may be a Scottish Labour, Scottish Liberal, Scottish Green, Scottish Conservative, Socialist or SNP party who win this election for who will govern an Independent Scotland. This election is something that a lot of Scots do not understand is an intergral part of post Independence SNP policy. Yes Alex Salmond is a federalist but he is only one member of the movement for Scottish Independence.

In our global economy with its global corporations, the people of this globe have become but pawns in the great scheme of things. In an Independent Scotland we as a nation of down to earth, fair level headed people could champion the Global Trade Union. A Union that would correct the balance between rich and poor. As the powerful and rich in this World are few. The threat of Global industrial action by the many, would force them into correcting the balance. Osbourne claims he will make the rich pay ... how ? The only way to correct the imbalance is by a power shift. This need not be messy as we have the networks inplace to stand up to those who ravage the earth and its people for selfish personal gain.

Scotland is a very rich nation, with abundant natural resources and a small defiant population. A population that can make a difference in the World. The UK is the fourth largest nation in the World when it comes to the defence drain. Spending £62.5 billion (that we know about?) a year. (Hey why do you not get £10 billion out of that fund Mr Osbourne) However we are only the sixth richest country in the World. Germany spends less on defence than the UK. The UK also gives some £40 billion on overseas aid, when 250,000 Children in Scotland live below the poverty line. When the people of Scotland say YES in 2014 the World will be listening.

Posted by: Mrs L 16th Oct 2012, 12:49am

Sadly, no I don't think those of us living abroad should be able to vote in the referendum
Take care Ellen (Mrs L)

Posted by: PatBreslin 16th Oct 2012, 12:50am

To Bonny's posts I would add that in the light of a growing desire for full independence the last Labour government and the present coalition have dampened down the North Sea Oil industry using tax meaures and made it look worthless to scare us away from independence.
What's needed is a promise to invest in rigourous training for everyone in Scotland.


Prisoners voting is absurd. Incarceration means society has decided you are no longer a full member. No voting rights. Unless that position is changed democratically. Not by a judge in another country.

Posted by: Noonan McKane 16th Oct 2012, 12:54am

QUOTE (Bonny @ 16th Oct 2012, 01:06am) *
...
Oh, and lets not forget - fresh water, the commodity of the future.

We could finance ourselves solely on the income we earn selling water to drought-ridden UK. Unlike parts of England, when Scots drink a glass of tap water, we know it'll be the first and last time that water will be drank. I believe the average glass of London tap water has passed through a human being and been reprocessed at least 7 times? Correct me if I'm wrong...

You are, indeed. Quite wrong. Water is, sadly, finite. All our attempts to import it from other planets have thus far been unsuccessful, so we just use the same stuff over and over. (Google 'steam' or 'the water cycle' or 'the sun' or 'clouds' or something.)

Posted by: Noonan McKane 16th Oct 2012, 01:09am

QUOTE (Noonan McKane @ 16th Oct 2012, 02:09am) *
You are, indeed. Quite wrong. Water is, sadly, finite. All our attempts to import it from other planets have thus far been unsuccessful, so we just use the same stuff over and over. (Google 'steam' or 'the water cycle' or 'the sun' or 'clouds' or something.)

...wait,though: If we sell ALL our water to drought- ridden UK, wouldn't they become flood-ravaged UK, and then we'd be drought-ridden UK? I dunno if I'm more worried about being ridden or ravaged, me. I suppose they could sell us it all back (after they've drank it and pissed it out 7 times, obviously) and we could become a kind of self supporting OPEC style group of water exporters or somesuch kind of thing....

Posted by: weecal 16th Oct 2012, 01:27am

Anyone living abroad pemanently at the time of the referendum should NOT get a vote.

Posted by: petunia 16th Oct 2012, 01:27am

I have no wish to vote in any election in Scotland I am a Canadian and have lived here many years I am a duel citizen of the U.K. and Canada so as long as I retain what I have and can visit Scotland when I wish that is all I want.

I don't think people who do not reside in a country and pay taxes should have a say in the running of it.

What about Scots who live in England, Ireland, Wales or parts of Europe??

Posted by: Noonan McKane 16th Oct 2012, 01:52am

Exact same thing, Petunia. You wouldn't expect to get to vote in the council elections for North Ayrshire if you lived in East Sussex, for example, so I suppose people who live in England shouldn't expect to get a say in what happens to Scotland, however much they feel they ought to.

Having said that, this referendum will decide whether or not the UK is broken up, and the UK has 4 parts (even though they are all essentially 'regions' now, and only people born before 1707 can remember them as 'nation states') so one might wonder why wouldn't people in Wales, NI and England be consulted over whether or not they want a part of "Great Britain And Northern Ireland" (to give the UK it's Sunday name!) removed? If Wales, or England were planning a referendum in 2014, proposing this exact same thing, I'd want to vote. I'd want to vote no, because an independent England or an independent Wales is just as potty a notion as an independent Scotland, obviously.

Posted by: Isobel 16th Oct 2012, 02:33am

I have lived in Canada since 1973, I have a Canadian passport , and I am a Canadian citizen.. I would still like to be able to have a vote about what is going on in Scotland. However I do realize that I no longer have the right to a vote.I honestly believe that's how it should be. Once I became the citizen of another country I gave up all my rights.

Posted by: Elma 16th Oct 2012, 02:52am

You took the words right out of my mouth Isobel. I have been in Canada since 1967 and a Canadian citizen since 1972. I would love to see Scotland as an independent country and voted 'yes' in the GG poll but realize that is an emotional reaction although if I still lived in Scotland I would vote YES...YES...YES thumbup.gif

Posted by: Noonan McKane 16th Oct 2012, 03:20am

Elma, for goodness sake...why? Why would you 'love to see Scotland as an independent country'?

This isn't a rhetorical question. I honestly want you to tell me why you would love Scotland to be an independent country.

(PS I've lived in Scotland for as long as you've lived in Canada. Since the day I was born in 1967. I will die here. This is Scotland and this is Britain.)

Posted by: Catarina 16th Oct 2012, 03:49am

As a Scot, I have lived,and became a Canadian Citizen years ago..However. I would like to point out that it took me many years of residence in Canada to convince myself to become a Canadian Citizen.I am soo proud to be a Scot,from Glasgow.

As to your survey,re the question should Scotland seperate from England...I without hesitation,
voted...NO...then I thought to myself..."hey,you are not now,or in the future will be residing in Scotland,soo why should you even be given the privilege to vote?.

The answer to the above,is we face the same situation here in Canada....There is,and always has been,even violently,a Political force to declare Quebec a seperate Nation...

Look...My husband and I, have just arrived 'home in New Brunswick, after having visited family in Quebec, they,being in their early 40s,with young kids to offer an opinion as to..."seperation"....It was a resounding...NO.....Keep Quebec within Canada...

A UNITED KINGDOM,MUST BE AS THE WORD SAYS....UNITED...

PLEASE SCOTLAND .....STAY UNITED WITH ENGLAND.

Posted by: Oldsmiddy 16th Oct 2012, 03:52am

I did not vote, & my reason is, that although I'm still a Scot at heart, I left Scotland almost 50 years ago next month, & I'm now a Canadian Citizen, & I really don't think I now have the right to tell anyone who still calls Scotland home what to do. I personally think it's great for Scotland to have independance from England, & to have a say in their future, but I sincerely hope it would be beneficial financially & economically, but because of my absence for so long, I could not possibly offer a valid yes or no to a vote of independance. I still love the country of my birth, & my town of Coatbridge, which I haven't seen in a very long time, but still holds many pleasant & happy memories for me. Good luck for the future.

Posted by: ScotsmanfraeItaly 16th Oct 2012, 04:11am

Though now I'm far away, I'm still both Scottish AND British, I still feel being a Scotsman as one of the main reasons building up a true British citizenship, no mystery I've always been a unionist, a Labour unionist, and even if you told me a republic would be somewhat more democratic and "left-winged" I'd reply quickly: I live in a republic now and let me tell you... the UK's the more open-minded place I've ever been... Italy is no democracy, political parties rule over the people here, I don't want this to happen to Scotland, so I'd stick to the Kingdom and let the Queen be allowed not to pay taxes: it's always better than letting someone else do that (i.e. the Pope) and hence ruin your country's liberal and progressive attitudes...

Being a unionist does NOT mean being conservative at all, it doesn't even mean I'm Protestant (I may be Catholic, I wouldn't change my point of view), it doesn't mean "I'm in love with the English", oh not at all... Scottish and proud tae be, but if we do part company we're gonnae get intae troubled times, let alone I care for the Jack and that's enough fae me.

Posted by: angel 16th Oct 2012, 04:24am

As I have said before on this subject , make your government and politicians find ways to keep the United Kingdom together and not be looking for ways to break up the country .

Posted by: Guest 16th Oct 2012, 05:01am

You should have to be a citizen and on the voter's list in your district in Scotland- I don't think anyone else should have a say. j. macnab, canada

Posted by: beth 16th Oct 2012, 05:04am

I do not believe ex-pats of any country should be allowed to vote in the country they left. We chose to leave, for whatever reason, and any political decisions made will not affect us. We do not pay taxes in Britain and except for paying our pension, cos we always thought and still do think, that we would move back home, have had no input whatsoever. So, what right do we have in the decision making.

As for 16 and 17 year olds being able to vote, I do not agree with that. At that age I think their vote would be based on emotions and that is not a good thing. When I was 16 and 17 I was standing out in the rain handing out SNP posters cos I was in love with the idea of a free Scotland. It was nothing to do with politics or what would be good for Scotland, it was just a romantic idea and I loved being part of that scene

Posted by: weebren3 16th Oct 2012, 07:16am

I an for,all of Scotland,and yes I say ex pats have choices too.I live in Canada I am still A scot,s too. I will never change my status,give up my country it is my right,I payed Taxes and never took my pension,it will stay there all for Bonnie Scotland, it helps children who need funds for A better education wisdom for A better future.Adults too in need.So you see there maybe seats for Scottish Independence.This is my choice.I do hope for many more to keep fighting YEEEEEEEES

Posted by: gordymac 16th Oct 2012, 07:36am

No, expats should not be allowed to vote. Registered voters only.

Posted by: HEAT 16th Oct 2012, 07:49am

No, only those who reside in Scotland should vote. Btw does anyone know big Sean Connery still has a home here(I can see a great big home coming for 2014 rolleyes.gif )?

Posted by: runningrocker 16th Oct 2012, 07:58am

As a proud nation, we the Scots need to stop and think for a minute,
whyis London so set against Scotland becoming an independant counrty?

Sure;y is Scotland was such the liability and drain on the resources of Great Britain as it is made out to be by the press, the media and the so called government itself, then surely London and the rest of GB would want to get rid of us as quickly as possible.

The reason they dont want to get rid of us is because Scotland has to much to of GB in the way of Electricity, Water, Gas, Oil, Petrolium Spirit and its derivitives, income from Whisky sales IRN BRU exports (yes its only a soft drink but exports to other countries is on the rise and not just for the ex-pats living there), good fishing grounds wheremuch of GB's exported fish derives (If London lose that again they lose income) and thats only th ones I know about ther is bount to be other industries bring in much income which at the moment is going to purse GB but purse Scotland doesnt benefit from.

Another reason is defence, London is dis-arming all of the scottish regiments in favour of keeping the english regements, if Scotland were independant then we would be able to keep all of our own historic and great military regements as wellas one of the best military fighting forces in the world.

Cpme on Scotland be a nation again, cme together and rise to the challenge in front of us so that we may continue the fight that Wallace and Bruce started many years ago rather than let london strip us, rape us and throw us to the side lines.

If the Isle of Mann can be independant (Yes they are independant you need to get a work permit etc to work in IOM, or permission to go and live there etc, they are in the strictest sence of the word independnat making all their own laws, having their own banks:different entierly from the way Scotland has its own banks as they are still governed by the bank of enngland IOM banks are not.). If they can we can.

Just think about what I said, why does Londan wanht to hang on to Scotland so much if we are the supposed bain, drain and pain in their econemy? Its not because they feel sorry for us its because we offer so much to the econemy in return we become the GB wasteland.

Posted by: bilbo.s 16th Oct 2012, 08:12am

While I am in general agreement with your post, I question why you are making a point (wrongly) about the spelling of whisky. Scotch (and usually Canadian whisky) is spelt without an "e", but Irish (and normally American) whiskey has the "e". unsure.gif

Posted by: runningrocker 16th Oct 2012, 08:15am

QUOTE (beth @ 16th Oct 2012, 06:19am) *
As for 16 and 17 year olds being able to vote, I do not agree with that. At that age I think their vote would be based on emotions and that is not a good thing. When I was 16 and 17 I was standing out in the rain handing out SNP posters cos I was in love with the idea of a free Scotland. It was nothing to do with politics or what would be good for Scotland, it was just a romantic idea and I loved being part of that scene

I have to disagree with you there and all who say that those at 16 and 17 should not get the vote, after all at 16 you can go into the armed forces and be trained to start defending the country in which you live, at 17 you after basic training, which can be anything from 8 weeks to months depending upon the regiment you join, go to war, why should these people defend a country in which they have no say in how it is run?

So at 16 and above you can legaly get married (parents concent neede)
at 17 married no consent needed own choice
at 16 you can drive certain vehicle both on and off the road with the proper licience
at 17 drive a car and in the military an HGV or LGV as they are called now
at 16 leave school get a job and pay taxes to help the country run

So at 16 and 17 people have to make a legal contribution and effort to help sustain as well as even protect the country they live in but they cant have a say in how its run, wrong,

You talk about emotional voting, their are many out there at years past 16 and 17 who vot emotionally, or vote the way they did years ago which was based on the way their family voted.
I at 16 and 17 they are being treated as adults for crime, driving and armed forces etc they they must be treated like adults for voting rights as well, equality is what we are after and through independance that is what we will get, not the narrow minded thinking of London.

we need to stop treating them like children for one thing and adults for another its no wonder children/young adults are so pissed off with the world these days, we tell you to do this, we tell you to do that, but you aint getting a say, thats the way your parents and teachers brought you up through your young childhood years, like a child.

Allow votes for 16 and 17 year olds or raise the age for joining the militry to 18, the age for paying taxes to 18, the age for driving to 18 and continue to pay out child benefit till they are 18 and legal to vote.
we cant have it both ways.....

Posted by: farrochie 16th Oct 2012, 08:18am

Is Scotland unique in the world in being a country unable to make its own decisions and manage its own affairs? The natural state for any country is Independence. Otherwise we are continuously subject to the governments elected by the larger constituency of another country. This consistently gives us a cycle of Tory and Labour administrations, both vying for the middle England vote, and Tory administrations are thereby guaranteed for Scotland in the future. Labour proposes that Tory 50% of the time is better than Scotland making its own decisions.

All of our Corporation tax, VAT, income tax and NI flows to Westminster. There, following the deduction of transaction costs (expenses and commissions included), decisions are made in London about how our money will be spent (take Trident, don't want London as a target, come and fight in Iraq too, £35 billion black hole in the defence budget!). Then some of our tax is returned to Scotland for our disposal. This is completeley inefficient and a waste of our money.

As we create our own economic and administrative arrangements, the big companies will invest heavily in Scotland to get a share of the big infrastructure projects that the Scottish government will be free to pursue, and our capital will be a real international capital.

Just some of the reasons I'll be voting YES to Scotland's Independence.

Posted by: runningrocker 16th Oct 2012, 08:22am

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 16th Oct 2012, 09:27am) *
While I am in general agreement with your post, I question why you are making a point (wrongly) about the spelling of whisky. Scotch (and usually Canadian whisky ) is spelt without an "e", but Irish (and normally American ) whiskey has the "e". unsure.gif

Sorrry my mistake sad.gif, I know I was in mid conversation about whiskey spelling with an American friend and actually typed what I was sayin to them. I have gone back and corrected this terrible mistake and I thank you for correcting me.

I also thank you for your support and agreement smile.gif

RR

Posted by: Jupiter 16th Oct 2012, 08:33am

I was just sitting reading, Rob Roy (1817) by Sir Walter Scott when I came across this incredible quote,"When we had a Scotch Parliament,Pate,says I, (AND DEIL RAX THEIR THRAPPLES THAT REFT US O`T) they sat dousely down and made laws for a haill country and kinrick.
I think I know how Sir Walter would vote in the referendum although I think his view on the Parcel of Rogues is a bit extreme. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Tam O'Shafter 16th Oct 2012, 08:39am

Most of us paid our dues and taxes probably before many younger voters were born. Most probably lived in Scotland longer than you. Our fathers and many of us served in the armed forces of the country. Many were in proud Scottish regiments. Does it make us any less Scottish that many like myself lived in other countries. Does a person who has made their life south of the border have any less right to vote for independence. England is to my mind, always has been a foreign country. Or is it that posterity has granted to you a special dispensation to be more Scottish than the rest of us?

I am speaking as a direct descendant of Ian McKean of the McDonald. And this I must add gives me no special status than those Scots of Saxon, Norwegian, Norman, Irish or even Pakistani origin

Posted by: Les 16th Oct 2012, 08:51am

I think it is important to remember that the vote is to be cast based on the voter's residential status rather than birth. So, 'Scottishness' doesn't come in to it. Anyone eligible to vote in a UK election can get a vote in the referendum simply by moving to Scotland. Any ex-pat can make use of this trick if they can afford to. I wonder how your poll will reflect the fact that anyone with access can take part; even ex-pats like me living in England. Of course it is clear that most English based voters would vote to eject the Scots from the Union.

Posted by: Rab 16th Oct 2012, 08:54am

Dormant Members - ARISE! (Even if only to vote) thumbup.gif

Posted by: DavidT 16th Oct 2012, 08:55am

INDEPENDENCE v's DEPENDENCE. The yes vote is the only way for me.

Scotland would have a great future in renewable energies if only the fossil fuel energy companies would allow it. They are the ones who stand to lose out if we choose to take our power from the wind, the sea, hydro or the seldom seen sun. There has to be middle ground where we can use oil, gas and renewables. That only leaves the outmoded nuclear power industry out in the cold.

Posted by: Jupiter 16th Oct 2012, 09:13am

In the Union of the four countries I have always had the feeling for as long as I remember ,no facts data or figures to prove it,that England is number one two three and four in the pecking order and then there is the other three.Im in my early 60s and this is the last opportunity I will ever have to call myself a Scot,part of an independant stand alone nation and equal with all .Thats why I vote yes,call it heart over head but for me thats how it is.
Re ex pats who have made their lives abroad,good luck to them, but no vote.
16-17 year olds for the vote? Most certainly.This is as big a decision for them as anyone.They are the nations future and at present Scottish law gives them many voting rights at this age so it should be with the referenum.

Posted by: alex smillie 16th Oct 2012, 09:27am

Scotland has lost most of its manufacturig industries thanks to Maggie.
How many firms of any size are run from a Scottish headquarters, Halls of Broxburn are a prime exsample of Scottish compasnies being closed down, how many more if we go it alone.

Posted by: mlconnelly 16th Oct 2012, 09:49am

I'm still very undecided about Scottish independence, my heart says go for it but my head says no. Everyone has made very good arguments for independence but I'm just not conviced yet. Can anyone actually tell me what the practicalities of being independent are going to be. How will things like our health service be structured, how much will we have to pay in income tax and how will that money be spent, will there be jobs and if so were are thes jobs going to come from. Its things like these, among other things, that I want to know about. Without the relevent information, how can anyone make an informed choice?
As far as 16/17 year olds being allowed to vote, why not? If they are old enough to pay tax, if they're lucky enough to find a job, then they are old enough to decide how that money should be spent.
And at the risk of offending all expats, no, you shouldn't be allowed to vote. You don't live here so why would you be allowed to vote?
Out of curiosity, how many expats would be prepared to come back and live here if Scotland did gain indepenence?


Posted by: Jupiter 16th Oct 2012, 10:03am

I think that 16-17 year old will play a big part in deciding the outcome.

Posted by: *Peter* 16th Oct 2012, 10:23am

QUOTE (Libisa @ 16th Oct 2012, 01:27am) *
For years, I always said no to independence as I always believed in the Union (by the way I was raised and still am a loyalist). But the way this whole country is being ruined by consecutive Westminster governments has turned me round.

I am placing a load of trust on Salmond to deliver the goods. The first thing I want back, is rights over our own oil and gas reserves. Westminster sold this to foreign powers who in turn sell it back to us at inflated prices.

We have no choice in the matter now, as things will only get worse if we remain part of the UK. As say, it is a chance we take and a big gamble at that. But we could be damned if we do, and certainly damned if we don't!

I am from pretty much the same background and held the same views, and now? I am again aligned with your views. I am now firmly on the YES side as it is the only way forward for Scotland.

Posted by: pedropresley 16th Oct 2012, 10:33am

I totally agree with an independant Scotland we have bowed to this uk government for far to long and we do have the resources to go on our own so can't wait for 2014 and also the Commowealth games bring it on.

Posted by: Jupiter 16th Oct 2012, 10:39am

alex smillie I dont think the loss of Scotlands manufacturing industry can all be blamed on Mgt Thatcher.

Posted by: *ronnieauld2* 16th Oct 2012, 11:01am

Aye go for it we can't be any worse off than the way we are now gas electric etc, and why thatcher was not to blame for the decline of Scotland's heavy industries, steel, coal, shipbuilding etc. OK rant over. yes.gif

Posted by: Grenscot 16th Oct 2012, 11:03am

I am an expat Scot and have been for 45 years. I was basically an economic migrant in the 60s when I left to work on an overseas contract. I have maintained very close links with Scotland and come home at least once a year. I remitted money to help maintain my parents in their old age. I educated my children in Scotland. One of them opted to remain there after university and so I now have Scots grandchildren. I have followed and continue to follow the independence debate very closely. When I come home and discuss the independence debate with my siblings and friends I find that I am in fact much better informed than they are.

I am sure that many of the overseas Scots have a similar story to mine, however, none of that qualifies me, or should qualify me, to have the right to vote in Scotland. I don't live there and it does not matter whether it was by choice or necessity.

Should Scotland achieve its independence then I hope that it will engage with it's diaspora and harness what overseas Scots have to offer the homeland. The US requires all of its citizens to file tax returns in the US irrespective of where they live. In return they retain the right to vote no matter where they are in the world. I would be happy to make tax contributions to an independent Scotland in exchange for the right to enjoy the full privileges of citizenship, including the right to vote.

Posted by: The Callands Rebel 16th Oct 2012, 11:07am

The vote is a bit disappointing at the moment.

The wife (she's from Springburn) says the 37% voting No's, is
due to the English moving North into Scotland.

Hum, we have the same problem here in the Southern States of America,
the influx of the dreaded "YANKS" from the North.

"ALBA GU BRATH"

Pardon if I spelt that a bit wrong.

Even the "Air" once you cross the border into Scotland
from England is purer.

Sic Semper Tyrannis as us Virginians say

Jerry




Posted by: BEARGER 16th Oct 2012, 11:08am

QUOTE (laura j @ 16th Oct 2012, 12:44am) *
Not while alec salmonds involved - couldnt see extra poll re-ex pats - no they shouldnt.

No offence but that makes no sense. You want Independence but will not vote for it while Salmond's involved?!! You may not get another chance in your lifetime.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 16th Oct 2012, 11:53am

I agree BEARGER, it makes no sense; the vote would be a vote for an independent Scotland and not Salmond who may have a short term in office.
I'm sure that there are many "ex-pats" like myself who have never required, or aquired, a nationality other than the one they were born into. Until my dying day I will be the Scot that I was at birth. I belong to one country and one country only no matter where I have lived. If this Son of Scotland's ashes are one day brought home to his native soil will the bearer be told, "Sorry, no expats here." ?
Every Scotsman within the UK who carries a passport carries one like mine; a British Passport. When you have the right to claim a Scottish Passport I must have the same right, otherwise I may be classed as a Stateless Person; I certainly am not English ... or German. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 16th Oct 2012, 11:59am



No surprise to some but i voted yes.

Before the whole debate i never gave much thought to under 18's voting, after i've given it some thought and the fact my own daughter will be of age come the referendum i've decided i'm for it, not only for the referendum but for all elections. She has a sound head on her shoulders and is more than capable of weighing up the pros and cons than many people i know.

British vs Scottish ?? This is a vote on the disolving of the political union, a deep trench is not going to be dug seperating Scotland and England. We will all still be residents of the British isles, and can call ourselves either if we wish. We just wont be 'subjects' of the Westminster Parliament and it's laws/wars.


Posted by: chas1937 16th Oct 2012, 12:09pm

QUOTE (GG @ 15th Oct 2012, 11:39pm) *
An historic agreement setting out the terms for a Scottish independence referendum was signed today by Prime Minister David Cameron and First Minister Alex Salmond. ...

Personally I don't think anyone who doesn't stay here should get a vote.Even though they may traipsy between Scotland and elsewhere

Posted by: farrochie 16th Oct 2012, 12:09pm

This is not Alex Salmond's referendum, it is not the SNP referendum. This is OUR referendum.

Anyone who wants to know the ins and outs of Independence should get a copy of the wee booklet "Your Scotland Your Future". It covers Economy, Healthcare (Scotland already has its own NHS), Education, Justice, Transport, Welfare and Pensions, Citizenship, Finance, Business and Enterprise, Energy, Broadcasting, International Relations and Security.

Never fear, we have people of great ability in this country.

Our Scotland, Our Future.

Posted by: bilbo.s 16th Oct 2012, 12:18pm

Farrochie, You can tell this fact to some folk until you are blue in the face. Maybe there should be an IQ test for voters. rolleyes.gif I´ve already lost my vote because of non-residence, and so have nothing to lose. laugh.gif

Posted by: balornockrobin 16th Oct 2012, 12:25pm

I don't think Scots living abroad,or even elsewhere in the UK should be able to vote on the Independance question. How would you define a 'Scot'? It would be costly and impossible. Voting should be restricted to those registered to vote in Scottish constituences, whatever their background. It's the only fair way. If, for example, there was a vote on the UK's membership of the EU, ex-pats could not expect to have a say.

Posted by: *rab hay* 16th Oct 2012, 01:02pm

I will leave Scotland if uberfuhrer Salmond got his way and we became independent.

I am British by birth and Scottish by the grace of God

Rule Britannia.

Posted by: jak1948 16th Oct 2012, 01:23pm

I believe Scots living abroad should be allowed to vote in the 2014 referendum for the following reasons,
a] They are SCOTS after all,no matter where they live at present.
b] They may eventually return to their homeland.

Posted by: beth 16th Oct 2012, 01:51pm

jak1948, yes I am Scottish and will always be. For financial reasons we left 40 years ago, supposedly only for 2 years. but life happened and here we still are. It is my sincere hope that we will live in Scotland again. It is my own personal feeling, that at this stage I have no right to vote in the referendum. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion as stated by other members. I live by the laws of the land in which I live right now and pay my taxes to this government. I personally feel that the people living in Scotland, who have to live with the choices are the folk who should vote.
To a previous poster re 16 and 17 years olds voting. things sure have changed. If they can die for their country then I do agree they should be able to vote for their country, buy alcohol and cigarettes (If they can't already). I had to be 18 to try and join the military and 18 to get married without my parents consent, so I really am a bit of a dinosaur, and maybe that is another reason I should not be allowed to vote in the referendum

Posted by: Ayeyuya 16th Oct 2012, 01:51pm

Alex Salmond

the only person in the UK, that makes David Cameron a better looking electrol choice

Posted by: rumcdonald 16th Oct 2012, 01:57pm

I think it would be a big mistake for Scotland to go it alone. Alex Salmond..grrrrrrrrrrr!!! Since I now live in Canada, I'm not sure if I should have the right to vote..but I certainly hope that I can.

Posted by: shaggis 16th Oct 2012, 01:59pm

I must say, I'm disappointed to see even 37% would vote against independence, luckily most of the arguments put forward by them don't hold water, I sense a kind of battered wives syndrome behind their attitudes, understandable, since our country HAS been in an abusive relationship for more than 300 years.

Scotland's economy, resources and demographics line up with the Scandanavian nations, do you really think Norwegians ever doubt their ability to run their own independant nation?

I saw Margaret Thatchers name mentioned a few times in this discussion, she epitomized the english politician's attitude to Scotland, openly disdainful of tjhe Scots, she knew she, and her party, had nothing to lose or gain from their treatment of Scotland, hence Ravenscraig, Britoil, dismantling the SDA, for being "too successful", anytime a plant, factory or shipyard was to be shut, Scotland was at the front of the line.

If you want Scotland to remain at the mercy of foreign politicians whims, then by all means vote against independence, but remember, a no vote will only embolden the abusive partner, by the time those feeble hearted nae-sayers realize their mistake, it may be too late, and another chance may not come in our lifetimes.

Man up, vote yes.

Posted by: rumcdonald 16th Oct 2012, 02:01pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 16th Oct 2012, 08:33am) *
Farrochie, You can tell this fact to some folk until you are blue in the face. Maybe there should be an IQ test for voters. rolleyes.gif I've already lost my vote because of non-residence, and so have nothing to lose. laugh.gif

An IQ test wouldn't be such a bad idea.

Posted by: bilbo.s 16th Oct 2012, 02:01pm

QUOTE (Ayeyuya @ 16th Oct 2012, 04:06pm) *
Alex Salmond

the only person in the UK, that makes David Cameron a better looking electrol choice

I refer you to Post #60. Why do you think this is about one person's looks, personality or policies? angry.gif

Posted by: serabash 16th Oct 2012, 02:02pm

ayeyuya, do you not understand the vote is for independence NOT for alex salmond or david cameron, Not for snp or labour or any other party it is for Scottish independence or not which ever way the Scottish people vote. if folk think the way you do and don't understand the reason for the vote then we are lost.

Posted by: rumcdonald 16th Oct 2012, 02:03pm

QUOTE (jak1948 @ 16th Oct 2012, 09:38am) *
I believe Scots living abroad should be allowed to vote in the 2014 referendum for the following reasons,
a] They are SCOTS after all,no matter where they live at present.
b] They may eventually return to their homeland.

You make a very good point.

Posted by: bilbo.s 16th Oct 2012, 02:04pm

QUOTE (rumcdonald @ 16th Oct 2012, 04:12pm) *
I think it would be a big mistake for Scotland to go it alone. Alex Salmond..grrrrrrrrrrr!!! Since I now live in Canada, I'm not sure if I should have the right to vote..but I certainly hope that I can.

Thankfully your ineligibility to vote is cancelled out by mine ! laugh.gif

Posted by: marcam7 16th Oct 2012, 02:53pm

The expats thing is a no brainer a big NO,as for 2014 i made my mind up on that about 1964 i was working in England took aw the bother for my ma to vote by proxy Scotland voted for a labour government,the result Tory ive never voted for a unionist party since although it took me a wee while to vote SNP as we had no candidates for a while.

Posted by: john.mcn 16th Oct 2012, 03:12pm

QUOTE (rumcdonald @ 16th Oct 2012, 03:18pm) *
You make a very good point.

No he/she doesn't . If it's open to 'Scots' then does that mean non Scots living here dont get the vote? You are afterall using place of birth, not residence as rights to vote.

People may 'return', i may emigrate in the future, should i be allowed to choose the direction of the country i may, or may not move to in the future? Of course not, the idea is just bloody stupid, as is the idea of people living elsewhere for possibly decades deciding on the future of MY country, the place i was born, stay, raise my kids and pay taxes to for it's upkeep. You have no more rights to Scotlands direction as i do in deciding my parents wallpaper choice in my old room.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 16th Oct 2012, 03:23pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 16th Oct 2012, 04:27pm) *
... You have no more rights to Scotlands direction as i do in deciding my parents wallpaper choice in my old room.

laugh.gif Up till now that's about the best arguement I've seen. laugh.gif

Posted by: angel 16th Oct 2012, 03:36pm

laugh.gif laugh.gif






GG: [http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=24981&view=findpost&p=3592738.]

Posted by: Jupiter 16th Oct 2012, 03:46pm

Its a pity that until we know exactly what the voting arrangements will be Our Own Referendum Now will be a bit off key.As it stands at present and with our ex pats voting it looks like a yes vote.I t would be interesting if their vote was taken out.
I definitely think we are in for a very interesting and frenzified two years.
(Is frenziefied a word? rolleyes.gif )

Posted by: gardenqueen 16th Oct 2012, 04:19pm

Just out of interest, does Scotland still provide free personal care (and other benefits?) for the elderly and maybe others.

Maybe Scotland will see a mass return of ex pats as they get older. I wonder if just living there would qualify one for these benefits or would you have to live in Scotland during your working life?

Do immigrants qualify for such benefits (if they do, indeed, still exist)?

How long would you have to have been living in Scotland to qualify and to get the vote?

Just wondering, not planning to return myself. Thinking out loud, that's all.


Posted by: lesliecf 16th Oct 2012, 04:22pm

I've downloaded Flash but still see no sign of where to vote!

Posted by: droschke7 16th Oct 2012, 05:07pm

y n earth should children who asen't old enough to drink, buy cigarettes or serve their country (the majority of whom don't even work or pay tacx) be allowed to vote. I'll be voting NO!!!

Posted by: Jupiter 16th Oct 2012, 05:19pm

lesliecf,go to the first page of this topic and the voting panel is there.

Posted by: bilbo.s 16th Oct 2012, 05:28pm

Och , Joop ! You should have asked first which way he intended to vote. biggrin.gif

First post since joining 7 years ago - no wonder he´s lost !

Posted by: cocotkd 16th Oct 2012, 05:29pm

QUOTE (*rab hay* @ 16th Oct 2012, 02:17pm) *
I will leave Scotland if uberfuhrer Salmond got his way and we became independent.

I am British by birth and Scottish by the grace of God

Rule Britannia.

have a nice trip,watch you don't get lost.vote yes on independence

Posted by: bilbo.s 16th Oct 2012, 05:39pm

QUOTE (*rab hay* @ 16th Oct 2012, 03:17pm) *
I will leave Scotland if uberfuhrer Salmond got his way and we became independent.

I am British by birth and Scottish by the grace of God

Rule Britannia.

What an excellent post ! More nazi slurs ! Why are you British by birth and Scottish by the grace of God, and not vice versa ?

What exactly do you think Britannia rules ? Sure ain't the waves ! tongue.gif

Posted by: tartanfever 16th Oct 2012, 05:44pm

QUOTE (Yalnig @ 16th Oct 2012, 01:14am) *
The reason I would vote no at this time for an Independant Scotland, it purely Salmond the Grasper, He participated as an Mp for both England and Scotland purely for monetary reasons. Any decent Scotsman would have been content with Scotish Parliament only. I firmly believe that the vote and the 16 and 17 year old vote, is purely for his own benefit and his eye on a future position in Belgium where the big bucks is after he beats it from the Scottish Scene, just like Neil Kinnock.

I've never read so much nonsense in my life. My kids future depends on people like you seeing past your bigotry to listen to the arguments from all sides and making a rational judgement when it comes to the vote. Lord help us with people like you around.

Posted by: farrochie 16th Oct 2012, 05:47pm

Except for the Tories (some of whom would like to abolish Scotland's Parliament) who will offer no change, the Liberals and Labour are now coming up with their options of what they will GRANT us if Scotland votes NO. The Liberals will now offer HOME RULE, Labour in Scotland will have their own Devo version, depending on what Labour in London will allow.

The SNP and the Green Party are simply delivering what their manifestos told us they would do. They are the 2 parties that want Scotland to be independent.

None of this is about who currently leads any of the parties. It is about decisions about Scotland being made in Scotland by a government elected in Scotland. Following Independence, there may well be new or reformed political parties to meet the new circumstances.

Don't anyone vote NO because of fear for the future. We are a mature country, one of the oldest in the world, respected throughout the world for our culture, inventiveness and social justice, rich in many resources, most of all we have a highly educated population.

Vote YES and play YOUR part in creating our country as a fully independent country.

Posted by: cocotkd 16th Oct 2012, 05:58pm

DO OR DIE.


 

Posted by: beth 16th Oct 2012, 06:02pm

gardenqueen maybe some of us older ex-pats just want to come home, as it never was their plan to stay away for so many years. As said previously, life happened. Now the children are grown and flown the coup, we are just waiting for the dugs to die. See what I mean? Always something.Actually for many years, we simply could not afford to move home. A

Posted by: cocotkd 16th Oct 2012, 06:21pm

Scotland my home. Sit back and see the mess the UK is in,and it is only down to the people that are running the uk that has it in this mess,but it is also them who have made Scotland in such a mess.let us Scots clean up the mess that England has left us with,and we will bring our country back to its proud self,and we can believe me.

We are a proud nation and a very rich nation,so dont trust all the crap you will hear from now till the vote in 2014 trust only two things your Scottish pride and your Scottish heart.

Be brave my scottish brothers and sisters.
Vote yes for Scotland.

Posted by: gardenqueen 16th Oct 2012, 06:30pm

QUOTE (beth @ 16th Oct 2012, 07:17pm) *
gardenqueen maybe some of us older ex-pats just want to come home, as it never was their plan to stay away for so many years. As said previously, life happened. Now the children are grown and flown the coup, we are just waiting for the dugs to die. See what I mean? Always something.Actually for many years, we simply could not afford to move home. A

I'm not suggesting that people would only go back for the perks, but I expect it might be a consideration for some.

I know what you mean about life happening, I never intended to stay down South but once you have children, it is difficult to relocate.

Good luck if you do decide to go back to Scotland. I know it wouldn't work for me, I've been in England too long. Scotland is great for a visit to family and friends but I doubt if I could ever live there again, for many reason.

Posted by: Anthony McGregor 16th Oct 2012, 07:10pm

QUOTE (The Callands Rebel @ 16th Oct 2012, 12:22pm) *
The vote is a bit disappointing at the moment.

The wife (she's from Springburn) says the 37% voting No's, is
due to the English moving North into Scotland.

Hum, we have the same problem here in the Southern States of America,
the influx of the dreaded "YANKS" from the North.

"ALBA GU BRATH"

Pardon if I spelt that a bit wrong.

Even the "Air" once you cross the border into Scotland
from England is purer.

Sic Semper Tyrannis as us Virginians say

Jerry

Interesting point of view. I was born in England, but chose to move to Scotland when I was 21, almost 20 years ago now. I do not consider myself English, nor the artificial "British", but Scottish.

I will be voting yes, because I believe Scotland has what it takes to resume its place amongst the rest of the world, and again stand proud as a "Proper" country, not just a region of the ever Disunited Kingdom

Posted by: Billbhein 16th Oct 2012, 07:37pm

Scotland will last much longer than any particular politician, so don't worry about Alec Salmond. An opportunity like this may not come around again in most of our lifetimes, so be Brave, vote for Scotland, vote Yes.

Bill

Posted by: Heather 16th Oct 2012, 07:41pm

I cannot understand why those Scots who are living in another Country think they should get a vote in the Independence Referendum. They no longer live in Scotland, so they have no say in the matter.

I will vote YES, although I have some questions that I need answers to. So I think I will write to my SNP MSP and ask him and see what he has to say in answer to these questions.

For those who don't like Alex Salmond, then who's to say he will remain First Minister as he can be voted out after an Election.

Posted by: Jupiter 16th Oct 2012, 07:53pm

I believe that Alex Salmond,like him or not deserves credit for his efforts over the years which have culminated in the signing of the referendum agreement.A phrase often used is a weeks a long time in politics but whatever transpires Salmond will forever be known as the person who brought the referendum about.
What everyone needs and quickly so that choices can be made are answers to the many questions the referendum will throw up.

Posted by: DavidT 16th Oct 2012, 07:56pm

For people who live outwith Scotland, but wish to have a say in the referendum - the answer is simple - move here. Pay tax, work here, contribute to Scottish society, register for the vote then cast it. Or you could just keep living the life you've become accustomed to in your country of choice. wink.gif

Posted by: Michael Docherty 16th Oct 2012, 08:18pm

I'm an Ex-Pat, have been for over 30 years. Can't imagine why you would expect to be permitted to vote for changes in a country you made the effort to leave in the first place.

Posted by: Rab 16th Oct 2012, 08:24pm



Posted by: seamus1954 16th Oct 2012, 09:03pm

QUOTE (GG @ 15th Oct 2012, 11:39pm) *
... Also, tells us your views on whether you think Scots living abroad should get a vote in the referendum in 2014?

GG.

I think Only Citizens of a Country should be able to Actually vote , but those with an affinity for with a connection to Scotland can voice their Opinions An independant Scotland the Republic of Scotland .... AYE!!!!!!!!

Posted by: BigJim 16th Oct 2012, 09:09pm

Anybody who thinks that Iceland and Ireland represent what could happen to an independent Scotland should probably learn some facts -

Both countries per capita GDP has never fallen as low as the UK's (i,e, they are and have been through the recession richer than the UK)
Their economies are recovering faster than the UK's


In short, this is the era for independent small countries and we have to become part of it.

Posted by: seamus1954 16th Oct 2012, 09:09pm

QUOTE (DavidT @ 16th Oct 2012, 09:11pm) *
For people who live outwith Scotland, but wish to have a say in the referendum - the answer is simple - move here. Pay tax, work here, contribute to Scottish society, register for the vote then cast it. Or you could just keep living the life you've become accustomed to in your country of choice. wink.gif

DavidT , so you are saying that the millions of the Scottish Diaspora who have bloodties to Alba do not or for the most part SHOULD not have an opinion ???? is that not a little heavy handed

Posted by: seamus1954 16th Oct 2012, 09:17pm

QUOTE (Bonny @ 16th Oct 2012, 01:24am) *
Calling London - by Matt O'Neill.

What price did you pay for our nation,
When you dealt in political sleaze?
Well the price that you paid has been more than defrayed,
By the oil that you took from our seas.

How long did you think you could hold us?
How long would we play Britain’s whore?
Now we've broken the spell, sounded Liberty’s bell,
We’re the poor man of Europe no more.

The further you travel from London,
The thinner the jam will be spread,
When the border is crossed all the flavour is lost,
With the Highlanders eating dry bread.

When’s the last time you opened the window?
When’s the last time you let in the light?
Your empire is dead, get it into your head,
It went quietly into the night.

Now you’re planning to buy nuclear weapons,
An attempt to impress all your friends?
But the poor have to pay without having a say,
Maybe soon you will reach your world’s end.

You never could learn from your errors,
Never saw past your own urban sprawl,
But with Britain astern, maybe now you will learn,
Greed and ignorance was your downfall.

Now the northern shires of old England,
Look set to down tools and rebel,
How long will it take for their patience to break?
The clock’s ticking but no one can tell.

Awesome!!!!!! yes.gif thumbup.gif

Posted by: DavidT 16th Oct 2012, 09:18pm

QUOTE (seamus1954 @ 16th Oct 2012, 10:24pm) *
DavidT , so you are saying that the millions of the Scottish Diaspora who have bloodties to Alba do not or for the most part SHOULD not have an opinion ???? is that not a little heavy handed

People living anywhere in the world can have whatever opinion they wish to have. They can even try to influence the outcome by running whatever campaigns they wish, but they should not have a vote in a country they do not live in. I can't vote in a country I do not live in. As for diaspora..how many generations? Should Scottish Pakistanis run Pakistan or Scottish Poles run Poland?

Posted by: JAGZ1876 16th Oct 2012, 09:40pm

QUOTE (Rab @ 16th Oct 2012, 09:39pm) *


That will be the same Ireland and Iceland who will outstrip the UK GDP per capita in 2013 according to the IMF World economic outlook who have just published their latest quarterly statistics, they show that the UK will have a GDP per capita of $37,384 in 2013, 8.4% behind Iceland and 15.8% behind Ireland, and a huge 51.7% short of Norway who like Scotland have oil rich waters, who unlike Scotland have full control over their affairs.

It's no coincidence that smaller nations economies are recovering quicker than larger ones.

Posted by: rumcdonald 16th Oct 2012, 10:29pm

QUOTE (Noonan McKane @ 15th Oct 2012, 11:35pm) *
Elma, for goodness sake...why? Why would you 'love to see Scotland as an independent country'?

This isn't a rhetorical question. I honestly want you to tell me why you would love Scotland to be an independent country.

(PS I've lived in Scotland for as long as you've lived in Canada. Since the day I was born in 1967. I will die here. This is Scotland and this is Britain.)


I've lived in Canada since 1968. I still have my Brit passport, and never took out Canadian citizenship. I go home to Britain almost yearly to visit my hometown...Glasgow. I also visit my son who is Canadian but lives in London.
To separate Scotland from the Union would be madness. Alex Salmond is dead wrong!
The sad thing is that bigotry is alive and well in Glasgow, and when people say they hate England and the English..well, I just don't understand this at all and the haters will be voting.
I will always think of myself as British..which I am.


Posted by: angel 16th Oct 2012, 10:50pm

QUOTE (angel @ 16th Oct 2012, 03:51pm) *
laugh.gif laugh.gif

I wish that I could , delete this post of mine , # 77

It was a thoughtless move on my part , I , for a moment envisioned john.mcn arguing with his mother , whether or not his room should be pink or blue and this amused me for an instant , I certainly do not think the opinions of x.pats on this referendum should be given the same status as j.mcn's old room. angry.gif

Those x.pats as far as I can see , have in all honesty given their heartfelt feelings on this topic regarding their right to vote on this referendum and not once have they insulted , ridiculed or demeaned the Scots who will vote , and they most definately do not deserve this infantile nonsense . comming from so called mature voter's who will vote in the future of their country " thats scary" .

For my personal opinion on the x.pats vote , read my post #8. Also try post #30 , thats assumming you can find it after all of those who decided to register in order to get in their two bits worth and of course their vote on these boards.

And what about those members who never post , but did this one time .

Posted by: rumcdonald 16th Oct 2012, 10:52pm

QUOTE (farrochie @ 16th Oct 2012, 08:24am) *
This is not Alex Salmond's referendum, it is not the SNP referendum. This is OUR referendum.

Anyone who wants to know the ins and outs of Independence should get a copy of the wee booklet "Your Scotland Your Future". It covers Economy, Healthcare (Scotland already has its own NHS), Education, Justice, Transport, Welfare and Pensions, Citizenship, Finance, Business and Enterprise, Energy, Broadcasting, International Relations and Security.

Never fear, we have people of great ability in this country.

Our Scotland, Our Future.

Good advice! All this info is on the internet, so I'm printing it off for bedtime reading. I doubt if it'll change my mind, as I hope Scotland will stay in the Union.

Posted by: seamus1954 16th Oct 2012, 11:42pm

QUOTE (The Callands Rebel @ 16th Oct 2012, 12:22pm) *
The vote is a bit disappointing at the moment.

The wife (she's from Springburn) says the 37% voting No's, is
due to the English moving North into Scotland.

Hum, we have the same problem here in the Southern States of America,
the influx of the dreaded "YANKS" from the North.

"ALBA GU BRATH"

Pardon if I spelt that a bit wrong.

Even the "Air" once you cross the border into Scotland from England is purer.

Sic Semper Tyrannis as us Virginians say

Jerry

Hey Johnny Reb , I'm a yank and we have enough of YOUR"s Up here LOL wink.gif

Posted by: seamus1954 16th Oct 2012, 11:48pm

Remember Jerry ,What that Sainted Man St Abraham Lincoln said" A house Divided cannot stand"!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wink.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: wellfield 16th Oct 2012, 11:59pm

An article in the 'Los Angeles Times' today mentioned the fact that 16 and 17 year olds would be allowed to vote???......how in the hell did Salmond pull that one off! .....A continuing united Britain-YES

Posted by: AScotInArgentina 17th Oct 2012, 12:38am

I honestly think it would be a backward step for Scotland to be totally independent.

They're only playing at it just now....it would be a completely different ball game once they left the nest.

Posted by: Duns Stoshious 17th Oct 2012, 01:07am

QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 16th Oct 2012, 01:08pm) *
I agree BEARGER, it makes no sense; the vote would be a vote for an independent Scotland and not Salmond who may have a short term in office.
I'm sure that there are many "ex-pats" like myself who have never required, or aquired, a nationality other than the one they were born into. Until my dying day I will be the Scot that I was at birth. I belong to one country and one country only no matter where I have lived. If this Son of Scotland's ashes are one day brought home to his native soil will the bearer be told, "Sorry, no expats here." ?
Every Scotsman within the UK who carries a passport carries one like mine; a British Passport. When you have the right to claim a Scottish Passport I must have the same right, otherwise I may be classed as a Stateless Person; I certainly am not English ... or German. rolleyes.gif

When people ask me where I am from I tell them Melbourne. When asked what I am I say a Scot.

Posted by: loftypeak 17th Oct 2012, 02:57am

No I don't think people living abroad should be able to vote. They do not pay taxes or anything like that to the country. I am Scottish, have lived in Canada for 48 years almost, and although I took out a canadian citizenship. I will always be Scottish. But after being away for all those years, I do not believe I have a right to have a say on this.

Posted by: taurus 17th Oct 2012, 02:59am

Perhaps the ex pats could refrain from voting,but just give their opinions on the pros and cons of this very important decision the Scots must make,the most important national decision in everyone`s lifetime.I doubt if the ordinary man had a say back 400 years ago,so a big responsibility has been handed to the man in the street,I don`t envy them.

Posted by: seamus1954 17th Oct 2012, 03:21am

QUOTE (DavidT @ 16th Oct 2012, 10:33pm) *
People living anywhere in the world can have whatever opinion they wish to have. They can even try to influence the outcome by running whatever campaigns they wish, but they should not have a vote in a country they do not live in. I can't vote in a country I do not live in. As for diaspora..how many generations? Should Scottish Pakistanis run Pakistan or Scottish Poles run Poland?

Not run but should voice their opinions that is what this discussion group is All about.

Posted by: gardenqueen 17th Oct 2012, 07:20am

Interestingly, I have many friends, and family, living in Scotland and the majority of them don't want independence. These people are thoughtful voters. Most of my family and friends in England are all for it, largely because they couldn't care less

I have no real opinion as it won't affect me in the slightest but I do hope they know what they are doing up there for their sakes.

The thought of me having a vote when I was 16 or 17 fills me with horror. I was still playing with my dolls when I was not much younger than that. Any political thoughts that I voiced at 16 were usually those of others who had brainwashed me or I would come out with something radical to sound impressive.

I think they should go back to 21 for voting (and marriage). And, maybe some people shouldn't have the vote at all.

Someone on here mentioned the fact that some have posted on here who don't usually. Were they not invited to, or have I got that wrong? Is it not an open forum?

I expect, when the time comes to vote, there will be some who have never voted at any other election. Will their votes be welcome? I suppose it will depend upon the outcome.

Posted by: farrochie 17th Oct 2012, 07:47am

In this referendum, as in the previous referendums of 1979 and 1997, it will be the electorate in Scotland that has a right to vote. As I found when living abroad, I was not allowed to register to vote in the elections to the Scottish Parliament, though I could vote in Westminster elections. These rules are explained here:

http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/faq/overseas_voters.aspx

It is the responsibility of each of us to access the information on these matters and make our decisions based firstly on facts, then on our own feelings for what is best for Scotland. But my advice is don't let your feeling blind you to the facts. Remember there are a lot of vested interests (snouts in the trough, to be unkind) in the House of Commons and many doing well out of their elevated place in "The Lords". As the expenses scandal showed, many at Westminster are living high on the hog while applying cuts to the rest of us.

I speak for myself but I believe that decisions that affect Scotland are better made in Scotland and answerable to a Scottish electorate, not to a Westminster electorate dominated by the wishes of middle England voters. I'll be voting YES to Independence.

Posted by: DavidT 17th Oct 2012, 07:52am

QUOTE (seamus1954 @ 17th Oct 2012, 04:36am) *
Not run but should voice their opinions that is what this discussion group is All about.

Hello Seamus, you seem to be attacking me and at the same time agreeing with everything I say. Are you one of my relatives? ohmy.gif

Posted by: farrochie 17th Oct 2012, 07:55am

Vote Britain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-znkbMzi4A

This is a nice piece of poetry that some will enjoy.

Maybe it will help the doubters to consider voting YES to Independence.

Posted by: DavidT 17th Oct 2012, 08:39am

QUOTE (farrochie @ 17th Oct 2012, 09:10am) *
Vote Britain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-znkbMzi4A

This is a nice piece of poetry that some will enjoy.

Maybe it will help the doubters to consider voting YES to Independence.

Very good. He's a talented speaker. People who think a yes vote is an anti English vote might benefit from reading http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/4341-a-unionist-lexicon-an-a-z-of-unionist-scare-stories-myths-and-misinformation

Posted by: JAGZ1876 17th Oct 2012, 08:57am

QUOTE (rumcdonald @ 16th Oct 2012, 11:44pm) *
The sad thing is that bigotry is alive and well in Glasgow, and when people say they hate England and the English..well, I just don't understand this at all and the haters will be voting.
I will always think of myself as British..which I am.

Thanks to over 300 years of the union religious bigotry is alive and well in Glasgow, and please tell me, who are these people who hate England and the English?

Posted by: JAGZ1876 17th Oct 2012, 09:09am

QUOTE (AScotInArgentina @ 17th Oct 2012, 01:53am) *
I honestly think it would be a backward step for Scotland to be totally independent.

They're only playing at it just now....it would be a completely different ball game once they left the nest.

I'm sure Argentinians regret taking that backward step of becoming independent from Spain, how they must long for Madrid rule again.

Why don't you give a few reasons as to why the people of Scotland should remain in this uneven union.

Posted by: Dave Grieve 17th Oct 2012, 09:12am

I think the point of the referendum is to decide whether Scotland should go it alone or stay in the Union, ultimately it is about whether Scotland will be economically better of Independent, or as part of the Union, that should be the deciding factor, not as to whether the Scots hate the English.

Like a lot of other Scots families we have relatives who have married into English families, that link will not be dissolved.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 17th Oct 2012, 09:16am

QUOTE (gardenqueen @ 17th Oct 2012, 08:35am) *
Most of my family and friends in England are all for it, largely because they couldn't care less

That's been the attitude from Westminster towards Scotland since 1707, and that's why we're having this debate.

Posted by: serabash 17th Oct 2012, 09:17am

QUOTE
I have no real opinion as it won't affect me in the slightest but I do hope they know what they are doing up there for their sakes.
say's gardenqueen.

gardenqueen, I think you'll find it will very much affect you in England if we in Scotland manage to get independence, as we Scots give more per head to Britain than the rest of you.That is why they are so keen to keep us.

Posted by: farrochie 17th Oct 2012, 10:44am

Professor David Walker, Regius Professor of Law in the University of Glasgow from 1958-1990, has provided us with an authoritative and readable article on The Union and the Law. This explains how the Treaty of Union has been misunderstood and abused by Westminster over the years. Prof Walker also makes it clear that the treaty is a treaty in International Law and is not merely part of domestic (UK) law. Well worth a read.

http://www.journalonline.co.uk/Magazine/52-6/1004238.aspx

Posted by: Rab 17th Oct 2012, 10:47am

QUOTE (farrochie @ 17th Oct 2012, 11:59am) *
Professor David Walker, Regius Professor of Law in the University of Glasgow from 1958-1990, has provided us with an authoritative and readable article on The Union and the Law. This explains how the Treaty of Union has been misunderstood and abused by Westminster over the years. Prof Walker also makes it clear that the treaty is a treaty in International Law and is not merely part of domestic (UK) law. Well worth a read.

http://www.journalonline.co.uk/Magazine/52-6/1004238.aspx

Very interesting - especially the wisdom of the last paragraph!

QUOTE
It is clear that any political development which requires reconsideration of the Treaty and relative Acts of 1706-07 will require careful and anxious thought to avoid repeating or compounding mistakes of the past. It is not at all a simple matter.

Posted by: Rab 17th Oct 2012, 11:03am

I have lived in England for over 50 years. Family affairs compel me to remain in England for the forseeable future, although I would like to return. I have 2 sons who were born in England. One has gone to live in Scotland permanently. How will Independence in Scotland affect me and my family? - I haven't a clue! Despite attempting to find enough encouraging factors for such a change, I cannot.
I do however, have a very strong gut feeling that it would be wrong to break up the Union.
Do not forget that much has changed since Wallace called for freedom. We live in an economic age and the change will affect other members of the (remaining) UK as well as north of the border. One can still be a true Scot and still live within the Union, whatever its faults.

The change may not be as easy to achieve as the 'leaders' make out - see post above!

Posted by: The Callands Rebel 17th Oct 2012, 11:14am

To Anthony MacGregor:

Thanks for posting, all should voice their thoughts and the Glasgow Guide
affords all this opportunity. Thanks GG.

We real Virginians with roots to early 1600's are very much
still proud of our British ancestry, where we have Scottish, Irish
and English lineages.

My grandmother's line is Scottish (GRANTS) and many other Highland
Clans and she was a great influence on all us who grew up on the farms
in the mountains of southwest virginia.

And she still had that marvelous brogue.

Long Live Scotland,

Jerry




Posted by: Jupiter 17th Oct 2012, 11:15am

GG,I would like to see another poll on here,this time for those living in Scotland at present,(based on the assumption that ex-pats will not be voting) and respectfully ask our friends living outside Scotland to refrain.
I am really interested to see what it would show.

Posted by: john.mcn 17th Oct 2012, 11:19am

Why do people think this is going to be a Berlin wall type break up, it is a political break up. People will still holiday here and there, without border controls i might add. I've never had to show my passport going to Ireland, and the only border police i came across was during the foot and mouth epidemic, and that was only to spray the underside of the car and ask if i worked in a farm. If we have a different currency, then we will have to change it before going down south, something that many of us do anyway with our funny looking tenners.

Posted by: The Callands Rebel 17th Oct 2012, 11:45am

To JAGZ1876

'Hate" is a very strong word to use.

I still don't particularly like the Northern Yanks, but I don't "Hate"
them.

Distasteful seeds were sown by our northern friendly government on the south and so too, with England, your own history attests to this.

But fortunately we live for now in a world where you can agree to disagree, with this referendum and other controversial subject matters.

Apologies for getting off on another tangent.

Jerry

Posted by: Doug1 17th Oct 2012, 11:56am

Ref #post 131 John I think you are looking through rose coloured spectacles here. The break up would be a total divorce from the UK. Yes people would still holiday here and so on but Scotland would compete with England, Wales and Northern Ireland on all inward investment opportunities and indeed against the Irish Republic and who is to say what current UK firms might not move south

Posted by: Dave Grieve 17th Oct 2012, 12:15pm

QUOTE (Doug1 @ 17th Oct 2012, 02:11pm) *
Ref #post 131 John I think you are looking through rose coloured spectacles here. The break up would be a total divorce from the UK. Yes people would still holiday here and so on but Scotland would compete with England, Wales and Northern Ireland on all inward investment opportunities and indeed against the Irish Republic and who is to say what current UK firms might not move south

And who is to say what current UK firms might not move north?

Not advocating YES or NO but a seperate Scottish goverment would be in a position to offer tax breaks and investment opportunities to firms within its borders that are not currently available under the present UK dispensation. There would also be no dictation that any imported products had to come from English factories.

Not trying to be smart but I remember the sanctions that where supposed to bring SA to its knees, while the UK stood morally upright and enforced those sanctions thereby losing a lot of trade, all SA did was switch its business to other countries who where only motivated by business considerations. The result is today going from a country that was pro British in almost everything we are more like an American state.

It also had the effect of encouraging local companies to diversify into manufacturing products that had previously been imported.

Scotland should have the same aims and ambitions of the smaller countries in Europe like Norway and Denmark.

Posted by: john.mcn 17th Oct 2012, 12:27pm

QUOTE (Doug1 @ 17th Oct 2012, 01:11pm) *
Ref #post 131 John I think you are looking through rose coloured spectacles here. The break up would be a total divorce from the UK. Yes people would still holiday here and so on but Scotland would compete with England, Wales and Northern Ireland on all inward investment opportunities and indeed against the Irish Republic and who is to say what current UK firms might not move south

It will be a divorce but an amicable one, Scotland has had enough of the union, and some might argue so has England. We split on good terms before we are at each others throats.

Yes Scotland will compete with other parts of this island, just as it does now, what we will have then is the power to lower business taxes/rates to make it more financially rewarding to offset geographical locations.
I cant say how many firms move down South anymore than you can say how many wont, or in fact how many relocate here due to lower taxes. Now i know you may think we then get into a reverse tax auction, possibly but with little oil reserves, foreign wars and a nuclear detterent to pay for it would be very stupid for rUK to play that game. They either want to be a world power or they look after their own, i know which i prefer.

Posted by: petunia 17th Oct 2012, 12:38pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 16th Oct 2012, 05:27pm) *
No he/she doesn't . If it's open to 'Scots' then does that mean non Scots living here dont get the vote? You are afterall using place of birth, not residence as rights to vote.

People may 'return', i may emigrate in the future, should i be allowed to choose the direction of the country i may, or may not move to in the future? Of course not, the idea is just bloody stupid, as is the idea of people living elsewhere for possibly decades deciding on the future of MY country, the place i was born, stay, raise my kids and pay taxes to for it's upkeep. You have no more rights to Scotlands direction as i do in deciding my parents wallpaper choice in my old room.

You are so right there should be no discussion for people that live outside Scotland having the vote for independance as they don't have to live with the consequences good or bad afterwards. Hopefully all good.

Posted by: Isobel 17th Oct 2012, 02:22pm

So most of us all agree if you no longer live in Scotland, and are a citizen of another country you should not have the right to vote.

So now I would honestly like to hear from our members living in Scotland.

#1 Why they feel Scotland should be independent .

OR

#2 Why Scotland should remain part of UK.

Posted by: DavidT 17th Oct 2012, 02:22pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 17th Oct 2012, 01:42pm) *
Yes Scotland will compete with other parts of this island, just as it does now, what we will have then is the power to lower business taxes/rates to make it more financially rewarding to offset geographical locations.

I agree that in order to compete favourable tax rates should be offered to inward investors. But the lawyers would have to be involved early on to ensure that we don't end up in the same state as the UK where companies like Starbucks, Tesco or Amazon can make millions and pay ZERO tax to our economy.

Posted by: DavidT 17th Oct 2012, 02:26pm

John.mcn, sorry my last entry missed out a chunk of quotation of your earlier post. Sorry about that ..huge thumbs, small phone (no jokes please ha)

Posted by: john.mcn 17th Oct 2012, 03:26pm

You see DavidT all this talk of not paying tax is just BS, they do, in the form of NI, PAYE and local rates. The more employees and premises means they are paying a huge wack to the exchequer. What they are doing is using those rules that force them to pay taxes to legally not pay corporation tax. If what they did was against the rules they would be up in court for it. If having these rules means more people in jobs and rates to hard pressed councils then it's a price well worth paying.(imho)

Posted by: DavidT 17th Oct 2012, 03:39pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 17th Oct 2012, 04:41pm) *
You see DavidT all this talk of not paying tax is just BS, they do, in the form of NI, PAYE and local rates. The more employees and premises means they are paying a huge wack to the exchequer. What they are doing is using those rules that force them to pay taxes to legally not pay corporation tax. If what they did was against the rules they would be up in court for it. If having these rules means more people in jobs and rates to hard pressed councils then it's a price well worth paying.(imho)

I knew somebody would come out with the good for the economy nonsense..creating jobs and all that. Not paying corporation tax might be legal (i never stated that it wasn't) but it is certainly not in the interests of the country. It is a deliberate manipulation of the law to please the board. I hate the fact that the UK favours the ultra rich. I don't want that for an independent Scotland. Do you?

Posted by: JAGZ1876 17th Oct 2012, 03:46pm

QUOTE (The Callands Rebel @ 17th Oct 2012, 01:00pm) *
To JAGZ1876

'Hate" is a very strong word to use.

Jerry, hate is not a word i use very often as i don't hate anyone or anything (except cucumber, i hate cucumber) so if you read my post again you will see that i was responding to a remark made by Rumcdonald when he said "People who hate England and the English", i asked "Who are these people who hate England and the English?

I still await his reply.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 17th Oct 2012, 03:58pm

QUOTE (Isobel @ 17th Oct 2012, 03:37pm) *
So most of us all agree if you no longer live in Scotland, and are a citizen of another country you should not have the right to vote.

So now I would honestly like to hear from our members living in Scotland.

#1 Why they feel Scotland should be independent .

OR

#2 Why Scotland should remain part of UK.

Hi Isobel, if you go to the, Independence Campaign Begins thread you will read lots of reasons for Scotland to become an independent sovereign state, not so many (if any) on Scotland retaining the UK though.

Posted by: rumcdonald 17th Oct 2012, 05:11pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 17th Oct 2012, 05:12am) *
Thanks to over 300 years of the union religious bigotry is alive and well in Glasgow, and please tell me, who are these people who hate England and the English?

Are you kidding me? It's a well known fact that bigotry exists in Glasgow. The list of people I know is very very long. Billy Connolly often talks about how sad it is that there are so many bigots in Scotland. They are on facebook, you tube, and I've came across several on here who hate the English and England. One can stick ones head in the sand, but it IS a fact. I'm a Glaswegian who loves Glasgow people and their personalities, but there IS a lot of hard headedness there..some of it good, some of it not so much. I also love England, Wales.....and Ireland. The UK is a wonderful package. Politicians can work to make it better..not split it up As for Alex Salmond..well he is just plain daft.

Posted by: rumcdonald 17th Oct 2012, 05:35pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 17th Oct 2012, 12:01pm) *
Jerry, hate is not a word i use very often as i don't hate anyone or anything (except cucumber, i hate cucumber) so if you read my post again you will see that i was responding to a remark made by Rumcdonald when he said "People who hate England and the English", i asked "Who are these people who hate England and the English?

I still await his reply.

First of all, I'm not a "he", but that's neither here nor there. I'm using the word "hate" in the same way you "hate" cucumber, although I HAVE heard many many Scots using it against the English..in a strong way, which I would consider "HATE" (not of the cucumber type). I myself love cucumber!!

Posted by: john.mcn 17th Oct 2012, 05:51pm

QUOTE (DavidT @ 17th Oct 2012, 04:54pm) *
I knew somebody would come out with the good for the economy nonsense..creating jobs and all that. Not paying corporation tax might be legal (i never stated that it wasn't) but it is certainly not in the interests of the country. It is a deliberate manipulation of the law to please the board. I hate the fact that the UK favours the ultra rich. I don't want that for an independent Scotland. Do you?

I would rather have more people in work paying into the system than hammering companies who then cut jobs to save money, work does more for people than give them money. If thats nonsense in your eyes then so be it.
There are plenty of things not good for the country, i'm not going to worry about the ones that are perfectly legal.
What i want from an Independent Scotland is fair taxation, take someone working 80+ hours a week and earns a pretty good wage paying a higher ammount to the exchequer through taxes, they shouldn't be hammered because they work hard. You do that to people it's a disincentive to others, why work yer ass off if the government just wants (to quote Eddie Murphy) Half!! After all it's not like because you earn a little bit more you suddenly have £k's in the bank and loads of disposable income.
I have the exact same opnion with companies. I'd rather have low taxation and unemployment than high taxation and high unemployment.

Posted by: wee davy 17th Oct 2012, 06:04pm

Nice to see a forward looking, rational debate posted, on #Scotlands# future independence opportunity.

As I've made it quite clear already, I do think it should be only domiciles to decide upon such an important issue.

However, I do really want dual nationality (with passport) which I feel I am perfectly and legitimately entitled. Quite apart from anything else, it will get some much needed extra beans in the coffers!

Posted by: JAGZ1876 17th Oct 2012, 06:44pm

QUOTE (rumcdonald @ 17th Oct 2012, 06:26pm) *
Are you kidding me? It's a well known fact that bigotry exists in Glasgow. The list of people I know is very very long. Billy Connolly often talks about how sad it is that there are so many bigots in Scotland. They are on facebook, you tube, and I've came across several on here who hate the English and England. One can stick ones head in the sand, but it IS a fact. I'm a Glaswegian who loves Glasgow people and their personalities, but there IS a lot of hard headedness there..some of it good, some of it not so much. I also love England, Wales.....and Ireland. The UK is a wonderful package. Politicians can work to make it better..not split it up As for Alex Salmond..well he is just plain daft.

No, i'm not kidding you rum, i never claimed that bigotry doesn't exist in Glasgow, in fact if you read my post again i confirmed that it exists, as for hardheadedness! i don't know what your talking about, as for posts on facebook and you tube, then you will find even more that take an anti Scottish viewpoint, but that doesn't mean everybody in England is a bigot.

The politicians you talk of who can make things better, i assume they are the same unionist ones who have had over 300 years to make it better, who have taken an industrious proud nation and broken it into a subservient region of England, who has poverty and a life expectancy rate that would put most Third World countries to shame.


By the way rum, if the UK is so great......Why did you leave?

Posted by: DavidT 17th Oct 2012, 06:52pm

If anybody is wondering how the impending independence referendum is seen on another forum (not as good as this one of course) have a look here. Be prepared to see yourself as others see you. May provide a wee laugh or two though.

http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=143916&start=1

Posted by: GG 17th Oct 2012, 07:28pm

Some FAQs, courtesy of the Daily Mail:

QUOTE
What are the origins of the Scottish independence movement?
They go back to the Act of Union between England and Scotland in 1707. Scotland’s famous son, poet Robert Burns, wrote: ‘We are bought and sold for English gold.’

Didn’t Labour settle all this by devolving powers to Scotland?
Tony Blair created a parliament at Holyrood in 1999, but far from settling the issue, he sowed the seeds for the independence referendum. The electoral system was designed to ensure that no one party ever gained an overall majority and was able to push for independence, and constitutional powers were reserved to Westminster. But last year the Scottish National Party, which promised an independence referendum, scored a spectacular election victory.

What has now been agreed?
Under the Edinburgh Agreement an order has been made transferring the rights to hold a legally binding referendum to Holyrood.

Couldn’t David Cameron just have refused to allow a vote?
Yes. But Downing Street calculated that would allow Mr Salmond to foster nationalist sentiment. Mr Cameron wanted the referendum held as soon as possible, in 2013, but conceded to the date Mr Salmond demanded, 2014. The precise date is up to Mr Salmond, who may hope nationalist sentiment will be at a high around June 24, the 700th anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn when Robert the Bruce won a famous victory over the English.

What will the referendum question say?
Mr Cameron has had his way and ensured it will be a simple question with a ‘yes/no’ answer, having refused Mr Salmond’s demands for a third option, for greater economic independence but remaining within the UK. The Electoral Commission will advise on the precise wording.

Who will take part in the vote?
Unusually, 16 and 17-year-olds have been enfranchised, though they make up only 2.5% of the total electorate.

Would Scotland remain in the EU and keep the pound?
Mr Salmond claims an independent Scotland could simply remain in the EU and keep sterling. Constitutional experts and the Westminster government say, however, that Scotland would have to reapply to the EU for membership and commit – like all new EU members – to joining the ill- fated euro.

What about the Queen?
The SNP says the Queen would remain head of state.

What would independence mean for British armed forces?
Their likely break-up. The SNP has tended to disagree with many aspects of UK foreign policy. However, who would get which regiments, ships and aircraft is not clear.

What about the UK’s nuclear deterrent?
The UK’s entire nuclear arsenal is located in Faslane and Coulport in Western Scotland. The SNP has made it clear it will not allow nuclear weapons to remain in an independent Scotland.

What about North Sea oil?
This would be the subject of a legal battle between the continuing UK and an independent Scotland.

Will Scotland have to take a slice of the national debt?
Yes. The most obvious way to split the national debt is on a per capita basis, but this could leave Scotland with an unhealthy debt to GDP ratio of around 70 per cent.

GG.

Posted by: DannyH 17th Oct 2012, 09:44pm

The problem I have with voting 'Yes' for independence is, I don't know what comes with independence. We are being asked like sheep to vote "Yes" or "No". Is that it? No concrete facts or anything in writing from the SNP outlining their policies and means of making Scotland an economically viable country?

We haven't been told how it will affect us personally. For example, at the moment, Scottish pensioners are British pensioners. With independence, will they be treated like the present British pensioners who live abroad and have their pensions frozen when we get independence? Will the new Scottish Government have the funds to pay the pensions and the funds to support a newly created Scottish National Health Service? Or will they say like the present Tory-Liberal government, "We didn't know how bad things were before all this resposibility was passed to us".

What size will our army be? Will we need an army? If so, why do we need one? We wont have any countries that would rely on us for help, unless of course we stayed in NATO. Are we going to stay in NATO? Oops that would mean we would have to have troops.

Presumably we wont have a dictatorship controlled country, so that means free elections. Will the Labour Party get back in power? Will their main priority be to get Scotland back into the U.K?

We don't have many manufacturing companies. It would appear that Alec Slamonds answer to that is that every household in Scotland will have a wind turbine. Look at the jobs that would create!

Will we stay in Europe? How does the SNP know if the majority of Scottish people want to stay in Europe? Will we be allowed a referendum to find out?

What will be the SNP's policy on immigration? At the moment they seem to be quite happy to welcome anyone from Europe into the country. The are not the only political party which has that view, but we are talking about what happens if Scotland becomes independent.

Regards to all, no matter what your view is on independence.

Danny Harris


Posted by: seamus1954 17th Oct 2012, 10:56pm

QUOTE (DavidT @ 17th Oct 2012, 09:07am) *
Hello Seamus, you seem to be attacking me and at the same time agreeing with everything I say. Are you one of my relatives? ohmy.gif

David not attaching mind just could not resist the Yank part of your post , I find it very interesting how regional America truly is , 147 years after the Rebelion/ War for States rights depending on which side of the Mason Dixon Line the Rebel /Yank thing is still going on Which in of itself is a good thing staying true to ones's beliefs , makes a person who they are So my Fine Southern Gentleman from the Great State of Virginia , Not an attack just a gentle ribbing from A Yank from Penn's Woods wink.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: angel 18th Oct 2012, 01:05am

QUOTE (DavidT @ 17th Oct 2012, 07:07pm) *
If anybody is wondering how the impending independence referendum is seen on another forum (not as good as this one of course) have a look here. Be prepared to see yourself as others see you. May provide a wee laugh or two though.

http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=143916&start=1

I enjoyed that David and it is funny , I got a laugh biggrin.gif

Posted by: Jupiter 18th Oct 2012, 04:39am

Danny, I think you have many valid points re the vote.
I am starting a chronological list of all the subjects that will be affected if we vote YES.
My first subject on my list is Armed Forces andif you or any other members care to add any more I will be obliged as I intend to submit it to the Scottish Govt.

Posted by: Dave Grieve 18th Oct 2012, 05:40am

Good post DannyH, you have put in words what a lot of undecided voters are worried about.

Posted by: *donald anderson* 18th Oct 2012, 06:15am

It would be impossible to administer and check all those living in other countries, claiming to be Scottish. Like any other election it should be up to those living in the country and properly registered on the elector's roll.

Big YES from me.

Posted by: Doug1 18th Oct 2012, 07:15am

QUOTE (Backcauseway @ 17th Oct 2012, 03:56pm) *
How can pensions be paid to an increasing old population? No more defence orders Clyde ship yards close. No work for the estimated 11,000 employed in the defence industry in Scotland. Thousands of expensive windmills producing expensive electricity. If England starts to use shale gas via fracking. Their energy costs will reduce. How much is this referendum going to cost the Scottish taxpayer?Will support for the SNP "melt away" or"go away" once they loose the referendum? The SNP only got elected due to the incompetance of the other political parties. Then we have the currency problem. Can we use the Euro. Can we join the EU? Can we still use the £. When the Bank of England will dictate interest rates. Remember our biggest bank RBS is bust. Bankrupt. No way could the SNP or Scotland have bailed it out. Plus Bank of Scotland/ Halifax. If we cant save a meat factory that takes much of the Scottish pig farmed output what chance for our other industries in an independant Scotland.

You make a lot of good points that go along with my own thinking. Although I have posted many times regarding the independence subject I feel it to be rather pointless as I am perfectly happy with the country as it is. I am a born and bred Scot but I am also a British citizen and proud to be so I like Scottish history but I also like British history. Every time I meet a supporter of independence (like yesterday at the hairdressers) they keep telling me how great things will be and no matter what you say in return they always have a smart off-pat answer in reply. I'm just fed up with them

Posted by: john.mcn 18th Oct 2012, 08:11am

Jeez, you're fed up with them because they give you an answer rolleyes.gif

I've yet to see a list of answers that being part of the UK of GB is better than being independent.

Posted by: tombro 18th Oct 2012, 08:17am

I'm an expat and I wouldn't want to vote in a referendum that involves Scotland. I think that's the duty of those who still live there as they will have to continue living there once the decision has been made !

But I still wish Scotland; land of my birth; and all my Scots friends from GG, all the best, no matter what he outcome of the referendum !

Tombro smile.gif smile.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 18th Oct 2012, 01:21pm

QUOTE (GG @ 17th Oct 2012, 08:43pm) *
Some FAQs, courtesy of the Daily Mail:

GG.

Whoever compiled this really should have done their homework, but then again it is the Daily Mail so it's no surprise really.

Just two glaring errors that i can be bothered commenting on, "David Cameron got his own way on one single question"........No he didn't, at no time did the FM or the Scottish Government ask for another question to be added, a single YES/no question was the only choice.

"If Scotland has to join the EU as a new state it will have to accept the Euro as all new members do".....Really, tell that to the Czech Republic who joined in 2004 and still use the Czech Koruna.

What they conveniently forget to mention is that the newly independent state of England will be in the exact same position as Scotland.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 18th Oct 2012, 02:12pm

QUOTE (DannyH @ 17th Oct 2012, 10:59pm) *
The problem I have with voting 'Yes' for independence is, I don't know what comes with independence. We are being asked like sheep to vote "Yes" or "No". Is that it? No concrete facts or anything in writing from the SNP outlining their policies and means of making Scotland an economically viable country?

We haven't been told how it will affect us personally. For example, at the moment, Scottish pensioners are British pensioners. With independence, will they be treated like the present British pensioners who live abroad and have their pensions frozen when we get independence? Will the new Scottish Government have the funds to pay the pensions and the funds to support a newly created Scottish National Health Service? Or will they say like the present Tory-Liberal government, "We didn't know how bad things were before all this resposibility was passed to us".

What size will our army be? Will we need an army? If so, why do we need one? We wont have any countries that would rely on us for help, unless of course we stayed in NATO. Are we going to stay in NATO? Oops that would mean we would have to have troops.

Presumably we wont have a dictatorship controlled country, so that means free elections. Will the Labour Party get back in power? Will their main priority be to get Scotland back into the U.K?

We don't have many manufacturing companies. It would appear that Alec Slamonds answer to that is that every household in Scotland will have a wind turbine. Look at the jobs that would create!

Will we stay in Europe? How does the SNP know if the majority of Scottish people want to stay in Europe? Will we be allowed a referendum to find out?

What will be the SNP's policy on immigration? At the moment they seem to be quite happy to welcome anyone from Europe into the country. The are not the only political party which has that view, but we are talking about what happens if Scotland becomes independent.

Regards to all, no matter what your view is on independence.

Danny Harris

Danny, no one is expecting people to vote without hearing a reasoned debate by both sides, with the agreement being signed of on Monday allowing the referendum to be held, there will now be two years for facts and figures, pros and cons, no one will be left in any doubt as to what will be at stake.

A lot of answers to questions you have asked can be found on the "Independence Campaign Begins" thread, though your point about the pensioners is that after independence they will still receive their state pensions plus (unlike the current British pensioners) free prescriptions, free travel etc, everything they get at the moment, if on the other hand a no vote is returned and Labour are voted into power in the 2016 Holyrood election, then as Johann Lamont said in her speech, all the benefits that our pensioners and our students (Free tuition fees) currently have at the moment will be stopped as they carry out the Tory cuts that were promised in George Osborne's Decade's of Austerity" speech.

You mentioned the funds to support a newly formed Scottish National Heath service after independence, Danny, we already have our own heath service, NHS Scotland is funded by Holyrood, totally independent from their English equivalent which the current Tory Westminster government are determined to privatize.

I hope this has helped you a bit, your other concerns like Defence, Eu etc are covered in the other thread that i mentioned.

Posted by: farrochie 18th Oct 2012, 03:01pm

I have posted before that people who want to know about Defence, Pensions, Broadcasting etc should get a copy of the booklet "Your Scotland Your Future".

You can also participate in the discussions that are going on at Newsnet Scotland and other sites. However, don't be trapped into believing the guff of the mainstream media, who are conduits for Westminster and are untrustworthy when it comes to the truth (see Leveson Enquiry if you are in doubt).

http://www.newsnetscotland.com/

Posted by: DavidT 18th Oct 2012, 03:08pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 18th Oct 2012, 02:36pm) *
Whoever compiled this really should have done their homework, but then again it is the Daily Mail so it's no surprise really.

Just two glaring errors that i can be bothered commenting on, "David Cameron got his own way on one single question"........No he didn't, at no time did the FM or the Scottish Government ask for another question to be added, a single YES/no question was the only choice.

"If Scotland has to join the EU as a new state it will have to accept the Euro as all new members do".....Really, tell that to the Czech Republic who joined in 2004 and still use the Czech Koruna.

What they conveniently forget to mention is that the newly independent state of England will be in the exact same position as Scotland.

I agree..just want to point out that there will not be a "newly independent state of England". There will however be what is being called the rump UK I.e.England, Wales and N.I.
The rump UK will be a newly formed state just as Scotland will. How the changes to the Treaty of Union will affect us and rump UK will have to be thrashed out at the EU.
Also as far as currency goes Scotland already owns a percentage of the so called Bank of England (Bank of UK).

Posted by: wee davy 18th Oct 2012, 03:19pm

Just one wee thing, jagz.

Its not enough to just leave people to refer to another thread.
You must try and summarise for them - else they'll think your simply selling them some dogma.

(Doing a great job, by the way) smile.gif

I am ASTOUNDED not only by the lack of VALID argument offered up by any of the Unionist 'support', in both this 'new' thread, AND in the old 'campaign begins' one.
I wonder why that is???

Posted by: farrochie 18th Oct 2012, 05:06pm

DEFENCE
Scotland will have its own defence force which will be approriate to the risks that we face and will contribute to those international organisations with which we have treaties. That will include the UN, possibly NATO, but possibly also other emerging organisations that better meet future needs. Scotland will have nuclear weapons removed from our country. Our forces may be authorised by the Scottish Government to contribute to international peace keeping and security.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 18th Oct 2012, 06:10pm

QUOTE (DavidT @ 18th Oct 2012, 04:23pm) *
I agree..just want to point out that there will not be a "newly independent state of England". There will however be what is being called the rump UK I.e.England, Wales and N.I.
The rump UK will be a newly formed state just as Scotland will.

Have to disagree with you there David, the 1707 treaty of the union of parliaments was signed by Scotland and England only, the reason being is that Wales and the whole of Ireland were under English rule, but regardless of what they refer to themselves as, they will still find themselves in the same position as Scotland.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 18th Oct 2012, 06:15pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 18th Oct 2012, 04:34pm) *
Just one wee thing, jagz.

Its not enough to just leave people to refer to another thread.
You must try and summarise for them - else they'll think your simply selling them some dogma.

I know what you mean wee davy, but there are so many new posters asking questions that have been discussed on here for the past year it would save time and effort to refer them to the other site.

Posted by: wee davy 18th Oct 2012, 06:29pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 18th Oct 2012, 07:30pm) *
I know what you mean wee davy, but there are so many new posters asking questions that have been discussed on here for the past year it would save time and effort to refer them to the other site.


Vive la révolution, mon frere ph34r.gif

Posted by: DavidT 18th Oct 2012, 06:45pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 18th Oct 2012, 07:25pm) *
Have to disagree with you there David, the 1707 treaty of the union of parliaments was signed by Scotland and England only, the reason being is that Wales and the whole of Ireland were under English rule, but regardless of what they refer to themselves as, they will still find themselves in the same position as Scotland.

We all know which two nations signed the treaty. I disagreed with you when you stated that an independent state called England would be created. I know and you know that it will not. It would take an independence referendum for the English to create that state.
Now that's the nit picking oot the way. In general I agree with your views. biggrin.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 18th Oct 2012, 06:51pm

QUOTE (DavidT @ 18th Oct 2012, 08:00pm) *
Now that's the nit picking oot the way. In general I agree with your views. biggrin.gif


And me yours wink.gif

Posted by: big tommy 18th Oct 2012, 06:57pm

Alex Salmond is without doubt the best leader Scotlasnd ever had,so dont him for holding strong views.
Scotland shoud not be afraid to voye for independence .What have we got to lose >
?
SWE have been under Westminsters heel for far too long.
Tommy

Posted by: JAGZ1876 18th Oct 2012, 06:58pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 18th Oct 2012, 07:44pm) *
Vive la révolution, mon frere ph34r.gif


Voter oui mes freres et soeurs.

Posted by: DavidT 18th Oct 2012, 07:49pm

I just had a look at the result so far of this poll. At this time it is 66% in favour of independence. The polls reported in today's news are the complete opposite of this. Either the people using this forum are completely out of step with the rest of Scotland..OR the ministry of misinformation has been hard at work. Makes you wonder.

Posted by: angel 18th Oct 2012, 07:59pm

Hi David T , these are the GG boards ,
Not the rest of Scotland .

Posted by: DavidT 18th Oct 2012, 08:08pm

QUOTE (angel @ 18th Oct 2012, 09:14pm) *
Hi David T , these are the GG boards ,
Not the rest of Scotland .

So your answer is that we are out of step with the rest of Scotland. Cheers

Posted by: angel 18th Oct 2012, 08:25pm

David , Yes I think so , this being my conversations with my family and dear friends . Via Skype and of course during my visit to Scotland this past spring I would say the gg posts are not the word of " God " Cheers

Posted by: DavidT 18th Oct 2012, 08:28pm

My thoughts on the difference in polls were just out loud thoughts. It would be interesting to see the theories (or maybe even the explanation).

Posted by: GG 18th Oct 2012, 08:32pm

The poll is an interesting result, David. Certainly, as Angel says, this is not the rest of Scotland! However, I think the most interesting aspect is that it's a poll of Glaswegians – typically among the most unenthusiastic supporters of independence.

There's also a significant ex-pat factor, whereby, if these results are to be reconciled with the results in the media, there must by large numbers of ex-pats voting for independence here, and this voting pattern is the opposite of non-ex-pat Glaswegians.

I can break down the votes by country in very general terms: to establish where the vote originated, but not what the vote was, i.e. yes or no. The unfortunate irony is that all votes from Great Britain are taken together, so I cannot differentiate between an ex-pat resident in England and a Glaswegian living in Glasgow.

That said, it's still interesting that of the 774 votes cast thus far, 593 were cast from within Britain, especially when you consider that of the ex-pats living in England, it might be reasonable to assume that they would be more likely to vote NO!? Is this a reasonable assumption on my part?

Another important question to consider is whether we can trust traditional media outlets for accurate polling statistics when so many in the media have a vested interest in the outcome? I'd be interested to read comments on this also...

See the attached table of votes below.


GG.

Posted by: Rab 18th Oct 2012, 08:39pm

Don't agree GG. A persons geographical location cannot be presumed to affect their voting preference in this poll. Its all academic anyway as our wee poll was hardly going to prove any likely outcome in any event. But, there again, what do I know?

Posted by: john.mcn 18th Oct 2012, 08:56pm

Polls in my view are just for fun, whether they are on a forum or carried out by a body like yougov. You cannot accurately predict the outcome of anything based on a sample of around a thousand people. If i go into a pub and ask an opinion i'll get several different answers, and go in a different day completely different answers. The exact same thing would happen on any given day anywhere. It doesn't gauge the opinion of anyone but the people who took part. The real poll (not recent elections) will take place in a couple of years, that and only that will be a true reflection on the publics view, believing anything like limited polls between now and then is just stupid, and that goes for the politicians too..

Posted by: GG 18th Oct 2012, 09:26pm

Thanks Rab, John,

The one thing I would say about polls (not a fun one like here on the boards) is that the 'official' polls themselves, and the signals they communicate to potential voters, can be used to affect voting intentions. Nowhere is this more prevalent than in Glasgow, where vast swathes of voters have been persuaded not to bother voting at all because they believe that 'nothing will ever change'.

In fact, as I'm typing this, I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that polls were banned in the run up to elections in some countries ... maybe that's something that Alex Salmond might have considered negotiating?

Of course, the GG poll is not representative of the population as a whole because it is a self-selecting sample, i.e. the people who are voting are those who are inclined to visit discussion boards, not a random cross-section of the population. That said, it's still not a result that's to be expected given what we read in the papers.

GG.

Posted by: Bonny 18th Oct 2012, 09:32pm

http://www.yesscotland.net/questions






Posted by: Bonny 18th Oct 2012, 09:40pm

'Why we want an independent Scotland'


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VzYxmqYJ92U#!

Posted by: Bonny 18th Oct 2012, 09:57pm

YES to an Independent Scotland's photo.



 

Posted by: Melody 19th Oct 2012, 06:29am

And it's an absolutely yes from me. thumbup.gif

What is our alternative? As Labour are so lack lustre we would be facing a future of English Tory governments. No thank you.

Posted by: wee davy 19th Oct 2012, 07:35am

The smugness from the naysayers on Question Time (from Easterhouse) was quite astounding - its amusement value was immense - and Dimblbey was desperately trying to get an 'us v them argument going.
VFM BBC.

Posted by: bonnylass123 19th Oct 2012, 08:37am

QUOTE (Noonan McKane @ 16th Oct 2012, 12:55am) *
My answer to the secondary question is: No. Absolutely not. No ex pat of anywhere should be entitled to vote in elections held in their home nation. To me it's a total no-brainer; I can scarcely believe it when I hear people argue in favour of it. What right does a person who lives in Canada or New Zealand have to a say in how I get governed? I might as well say I want a vote in the next Spanish general election, so I can make sure it's all nice and tidy when I go there for my holidays.

It's even more amazing to hear recent arguments against prisoners retaining their voting rights. (usually from the same sort of folk who argue FOR Joe & Agnes of Vancouver to vote for Westminster and Holyrood..!) Prisoners are still citizens, are still certainly liable to taxation in some, probably many, of it's forms, and of course not all guilty of the crimes for which they've been convicted. If we insist on stripping prisoners of their vote, I'd insist no police officer on the South Yorkshire force be allowed to vote again, ever. Or get their bins emptied. Fair's fair.

So, it's 'no' from me.


Posted by: Ayeyuya 19th Oct 2012, 01:22pm

QUOTE (serabash @ 16th Oct 2012, 03:17pm) *
ayeyuya, do you not understand the vote is for independence NOT for alex salmond or david cameron, Not for snp or labour or any other party it is for Scottish independence or not which ever way the Scottish people vote. if folk think the way you do and don't understand the reason for the vote then we are lost.

Sorry but it is ALL about Shrek

Just look at his actions since he got in power , he has centralised, all the power in his inner cabals hands
As for the financial arguments in this thread, they are total pipe dreams , with no basis in reality

Posted by: bilbo.s 19th Oct 2012, 01:32pm

Methinks you are the one with the pipe and it ain´t baccy in it ! tongue.gif

Posted by: wee davy 19th Oct 2012, 02:21pm

Previous post but one.

Is it me, or did anybody else notice the complete LACK of reasoned contribution to the debate, re Scottish Independence, from the Union perspective?

Scottish Nationalism WAS once a pipedream - I think to many's a person it is no longer just a few nutters stood on a street corner, trying tae push the odd leaflet in yer face!

Personal attacks upon Alex Salmond are manna from heaven to him.
He has shown himself MORE than capable in rising above it.

Posted by: Bonny 19th Oct 2012, 03:01pm

50 Artists And Creatives Who Support Scottish Independence

http://nationalcollective.com/2012/08/30/50-artists-creatives-who-support-scottish-independence/

Posted by: JAGZ1876 19th Oct 2012, 03:09pm

QUOTE (Ayeyuya @ 19th Oct 2012, 02:37pm) *
As for the financial arguments in this thread, they are total pipe dreams , with no basis in reality

Perhaps you can help me Ayeyuya, when i posted financial figures on this thread i had stupidly taken them from HM Treasury (GERS) and the International Monetary Fund web pages, had i known they were Pipe Dream merchants with no basis in reality i would have given them a wide berth, so thank you for pointing this out to me.

So tell me Sir/Madam, where can i get the correct figures from?

Posted by: beth 19th Oct 2012, 04:31pm

I am not one of the South African ex-pats who voted as I have already given my reasons in previous posts. interesting to see 4 South AFricans have voted. I am only aware of zascot and Dave Grieg. Must have missed the others

Posted by: farrochie 19th Oct 2012, 04:31pm

ayeyuya,

You are presenting unsubstantiated opinions.

"He refuses freedom of Information requests"

Any refusal by a government department can be referred to the Information Commissioner, there are rules and an appeals process. No individual can refuse an FOI request.


"He goes off on numerous expensive jaunts around the globe at our expense"

For Scottish Ministers there are rules that have to be followed. One of Salmond's roles is to represent Scotland and to present Scotland as a great place to do business. You can make up your own mind about whether he does this well (say compared with his predecessors in the Scottish Parliament.

"He spends NOTHING acroos the Central belt"

This again is a sweeping generalisation. One could point to the new Forth Bridge as an example of funding in the Central Belt.

"He ignores our roads, our Airport links and our railways"

I refer you to the work of the transport minister in trying to get the best infrastructure for Scotland, with new links announced to Europe and the Middle East.

There is no total control in this country. As others have pointed out this is OUR referendum, OUR country; don't be so quick to criticise what we in Scotland have been able to make of our limited powers. All of YOUR taxes flow to London.

Take a look at what the Tories are doing to us, take a look at the Westminster MP expense scandal, the £35 billion black hole in the defence budget, take the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, take a look at the numpties that are governing YOUR life from London, look at the Lords with their snouts in the trough, look at the Ministers and MPs that have gone on to big positions in business. They are drinking fine wines on YOUR behalf, my friend, on YOUR tax money.

YES to Independence is what I will be voting.

Posted by: wee davy 19th Oct 2012, 05:06pm

welcome farrochie - havent seen you posting before.

i think you will be a valuable addition to the debate.

wee davy

Posted by: serabash 19th Oct 2012, 06:05pm

ayeyuya, sorry didn't see your reply until now but I will leave you to read farrochie's post 195 as that say's everything I need to. thumbup.gif here's tae an independent Scotland.

Posted by: Rab 19th Oct 2012, 06:25pm

QUOTE (beth @ 19th Oct 2012, 05:46pm) *
I am not one of the South African ex-pats who voted as I have already given my reasons in previous posts. interesting to see 4 South AFricans have voted. I am only aware of zascot and Dave Grieg. Must have missed the others

Beth, I am as reasonably informed as anyone on here that your best-known Nationalist Mr N. Mandela is using a nom-de-plume on here, is giving his whole support to Wee Leck and flies the saltire on his roof.

Posted by: beth 19th Oct 2012, 07:22pm

biggrin.gif tongue.gif

Posted by: DannyH 19th Oct 2012, 10:36pm

QUOTE (farrochie @ 18th Oct 2012, 07:21pm) *
DEFENCE
Scotland will have its own defence force which will be approriate to the risks that we face and will contribute to those international organisations with which we have treaties. That will include the UN, possibly NATO, but possibly also other emerging organisations that better meet future needs. Scotland will have nuclear weapons removed from our country. Our forces may be authorised by the Scottish Government to contribute to international peace keeping and security.

Hello farrochie

I am one of those who wont commit to voting 'Yes' until we get some concrete information from the SNP.

Where did you get the information that "Scotland will have its own defence force appropriate to the risks that we face ", etc? The SNP only voted today to change their policy about NATO. Now that we know that the SNP will keep us in NATO, could you tell me what size our Army, Navy and Airforce will be? I notice you use the term "our own defence force appropriate to the risks that we face.

So lets get logical here. As an ex National Serviceman called up in the 1950's because the West was at risk from Russia, I want to know who we will be at risk from if Scotland gets independence? I also want to know how you calculate the number of men and women you will need in these armed forces. Your use of the words "appropriate to the risks we face" is puzzling to me. How do you know how many young people will enlist in the new Scottish Armed Forces? We don't have National Service at this moment in time, so will the SNP bring it back if the numbers are inappropriate? If I were a young person, I would want to know that before I voted.

To me, the SNP leadership are now not content to get independence for Scotland. With this change in policy to join NATO it tells me some members of the leadership want to be able to go along to NATO conferences and join in the decision making of that organisation. The original Scottish Nationalists had only one concern - get independence for Scotland. They weren't interested in getting on the world stage.

Regards

Danny Harris

Posted by: wellfield 20th Oct 2012, 01:51am

As far as Scots overseas are concerned I don't believe they should have a say so in the vote,keep in mind,the majority of Scots overseas are Citizens of the country they reside in,I'm sure natives of Scotland don't want outsiders deciding their future,tho' there are countries that allow such,Mexico for example

Posted by: Dave Grieve 20th Oct 2012, 07:28am

QUOTE (beth @ 19th Oct 2012, 06:46pm) *
I am not one of the South African ex-pats who voted as I have already given my reasons in previous posts. interesting to see 4 South AFricans have voted. I am only aware of zascot and Dave Grieg. Must have missed the others

I never voted either that I can remember Beth, theres somebody near Sun city, Port Alfred, Zascot, You and me thats all I know of. Total 5

Posted by: Ronnie Fleming 20th Oct 2012, 08:34am

We are already a nation, I am proud to be Scottish and content being a part of the UK.
If independence does come about we will be worse off. the SNP are a bunch of ideologists, we run the risk of being over taxed to fund the cost of our mounting debts. being independent will not create jobs. Dont let As or NS drag us into a black hole. What significant impact has the SNP made since they became the majority party??

Posted by: DavidT 20th Oct 2012, 08:55am

QUOTE (Ronnie Fleming @ 20th Oct 2012, 09:49am) *
We are already a nation, I am proud to be Scottish and content being a part of the UK.
If independence does come about we will be worse off. the SNP are a bunch of ideologists, we run the risk of being over taxed to fund the cost of our mounting debts. being independent will not create jobs. Dont let As or NS drag us into a black hole. What significant impact has the SNP made since they became the majority party??

Hello Ronnie, as you say "we are already a nation". It's just a shame we are treated as a far off distant region.
Is there a political party not driven by ideology?
At present a lot of people feel they are being over taxed to pay for mounting debts. Don't let DC keep us in a black hole.
David

Posted by: JAGZ1876 20th Oct 2012, 09:56am

QUOTE (Ronnie Fleming @ 20th Oct 2012, 09:49am) *
What significant impact has the SNP made since they became the majority party??


For a start Ronnie what about no further education fee's for our young, or no prescription charges, free travel for our pensioners, council taxes frozen year on year, NHS Scotland operating at higher efficiency rates than their English equivalent, biggest economic growth in UK outside London, unemployment rate lower than UK average...........Before i go on any further Ronnie, how about you giving me some examples of what successive Westminster Governments have given Scotland over the past 50 years?

That should't be too difficult for you, as the few examples i have given only cover the five years that the SNP have been in power, promise's that they have delivered with one hand tied behind their back, so giving you ten times that period should make for some pretty impressive reading.

The floor is yours Ronnie.

Posted by: Ayeyuya 20th Oct 2012, 10:25am

farrochie

What good is a another Forth bridge going to do for the Central Belt , it will help Fife and beyond , allowing more People to use Edinburghs facilities and jobs, but not pay Edinburgh taxes, an Old Tory trick.


You did not answer, how Salmond will help the Central belts infrastructure, from the funds he controls NOW, not the usual answer of , we're fighting for London to pay for it. He has failed to invest, the funds he controls .

He has blocked and held up every freedom of information request made to him, he is even at this moment claiming Ministerial privilege, over the latest requests.

He has went on more expensive jollies than Cameron , while the Country is going through turmoil..

The Norwegian Oil minister called the SNPs Oil revenue predictions , a pipe dream

The Spanish wont allow Scotland automatic entry to the EU, so the Treasuries figures quoted in this thread, are based on being inside the EU, so are not correct

as for back slapping yourselves about how together, you all are, check the polls, the Yes vote is collapsing as people see what Salmond does with the power he's got, and run scared from what he might do given more.

Vote with your brain, not your braveHeart

Posted by: Dave Grieve 20th Oct 2012, 10:26am

QUOTE (Ronnie Fleming @ 20th Oct 2012, 10:49am) *
We are already a nation, I am proud to be Scottish and content being a part of the UK.
If independence does come about we will be worse off. the SNP are a bunch of ideologists, we run the risk of being over taxed to fund the cost of our mounting debts. being independent will not create jobs. Dont let As or NS drag us into a black hole. What significant impact has the SNP made since they became the majority party??


First lesson a Lawyer learns Ronnie.

Never ask a question in open court unless you know the answer.

Posted by: john.mcn 20th Oct 2012, 12:25pm



Why is it some people want the answers to questions about an Independent Scotland decades into the future, yet they dont ask the same of the London Parties about the UK .Do we know the state of the UK armed forces ten or even 5 years into the future, do we know what the European or world economy will be like?
The SNP is just a vessel for independence, after they reach that goal new parties may emerge in Scotland, certainly 'Scottish' Labour and the Conservative and Unionist party with no one telling them what to do, will likely split and the political landscape of Scotland might change. Who is to say even the SNP may go through it unscathed. The 1st elections after independence may not be won by the SNP, it might be a reviltalised Scottish 'Scottish Labour' who now not dancing to the London tune, may actually work for the people of Scotland.

Anyway Tommy Sheriden is not a man i agree with a lot(or at all ) but in this case he's right. It will be our choice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfo6i4DA4Rc

Posted by: bilbo.s 20th Oct 2012, 01:00pm

Excellent post, John. thumbup.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 20th Oct 2012, 01:03pm

QUOTE (Ayeyuya @ 20th Oct 2012, 11:40am) *
farrochie


You did not answer

The Norwegian Oil minister called the SNPs Oil revenue predictions , a pipe dream

The Spanish wont allow Scotland automatic entry to the EU, so the Treasuries figures quoted in this thread, are based on being inside the EU, so are not correct

Yes vote is collapsing as people see what Salmond does with the power

Vote with your brain


I'm sure farrochie, will respond to your question Ayeyuya, in the meantime why don't you answer the question i ask you yesterday when i asked you where i could get the financial figures you have access to?

As for your claim that Norwegian Minister for Petroleum and Energy Ola Borten Moe has called Scotland's oil revenue predictions a "Pipe Dream", i have checked the Norwegian Governments web site and checked newspaper sites covering the last 10 month's (i am assuming the quote is from this year) and can find no such quote, so could you please provide your source?

As for your claim that "Spain won't allow Scotland automatic entry into the EU".

Now this i do know, and you are talking absolute rubbish.

The official position of the Spanish government was given in January 2012 by the Spanish Foreign Minister Jose Garcia-Margall "Spain would not challenge an independent Scotland's entry to the EU".

The yes vote is not collapsing remember this is a two year marathon not a 100 yards sprint and i am sure the people of Scotland are more than happy with what the Scottish Government is doing with the powers the people have given them.

Posted by: DavidT 20th Oct 2012, 01:18pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 20th Oct 2012, 01:40pm) *
Why is it some people want the answers to questions about an Independent Scotland decades into the future, yet they dont ask the same of the London Parties about the UK .Do we know the state of the UK armed forces ten or even 5 years into the future, do we know what the European or world economy will be like?
The SNP is just a vessel for independence, after they reach that goal new parties may emerge in Scotland, certainly 'Scottish' Labour and the Conservative and Unionist party with no one telling them what to do, will likely split and the political landscape of Scotland might change. Who is to say even the SNP may go through it unscathed. The 1st elections after independence may not be won by the SNP, it might be a reviltalised Scottish 'Scottish Labour' who now not dancing to the London tune, may actually work for the people of Scotland.

Anyway Tommy Sheriden is not a man i agree with a lot(or at all ) but in this case he's right. It will be our choice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfo6i4DA4Rc

John, your post has got me wondering - where are the SSP and the Scottish Greens? How come they're no posting on here. Awfy quiet in the forums. You'd have thought that as neither of them were invited on to the BBC's Easterhouse Question Time that they'd be wanting a word in somewhere. Both pro independence. Both anti NATO. There must be some Greens and some Scottish Socialists out there.

Posted by: john.mcn 20th Oct 2012, 01:43pm

What makes you think they haven't posted? People have professed a choice of independence but they haven't stated which party they support.

Posted by: beth 20th Oct 2012, 02:07pm

Just watching the SNP Conference. Mr Salmond talks a good talk, we don't often get the chance to hear much of him on TV here

Posted by: DavidT 20th Oct 2012, 02:44pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 20th Oct 2012, 02:58pm) *
What makes you think they haven't posted? People have professed a choice of independence but they haven't stated which party they support.

I know John, but many of the posters have openly supported or opposed the SNP. There has been plenty of mentions of particular pro union parties. There has not been much talk of other pro independence parties.

Posted by: DavidT 20th Oct 2012, 02:49pm

QUOTE (beth @ 20th Oct 2012, 03:22pm) *
Just watching the SNP Conference. Mr Salmond talks a good talk, we don't often get the chance to hear much of him on TV here

Are you getting that live? In S.A? I'm watchingit here in Sunny Govan, but as someone on here previously refered to him as 'Shrek' al I could hear him say was "Donkey!"
Seriously he does talk the good talk.

Posted by: gerald 20th Oct 2012, 02:51pm

THE eton cowboy (cameron) and his poss'e (of pussies) the govenment wont be happy until they close down the whole of the u.k he is only out to get as much as he can for himself watch what happens when he is kicked out of government he will be off to the states like the rest of the nohopers that once was the government refuge like all the other toss pots pity help the next planet that gives him any space.

Posted by: john.mcn 20th Oct 2012, 03:02pm

IRT DavidT

It seems many of the opposers do so because they dont like Alex Salmond, as i have said i think it is part political jealousy,there are many of all political persuasions who think he is one of the best (if not the best) politicians in the whole of the UK. I wonder if he was leader of their chosen party if he would be hated so much, or would he be treated as the 2nd coming.

I doubt criticism of the SSP will come from the 'left' who oppose independence, sadly Sheridens ego pretty much buried them as a rising political force, but i would guess that some of their policies are popular with many pro union 'old' labour supporters, better to pick the bigger target than to actually listen to their independence views.

BTW, watching QT with Margaret Curran, she says that a vote for independence will kill devolution....Is she seriously that friggin stupid?

Posted by: gerald 20th Oct 2012, 03:23pm

ex-pats should have the vote they where forced to go elsewhere for better living conditions. for themselfs and thier family
given half the chance yous would have done the samething the english ripped this nation apart they should be happy and feel safe that we are going for a vote next time the scots WILL TAKE SCOTLAND BACK AND GIVE THE ENGLISH A CLIP ROUND THE EARS so shove that in with your waccy baccy and smoke it

Posted by: beth 20th Oct 2012, 03:58pm

Wow Gerald, sorry as an ex-pat I do not agree, but we are all entitled to our own opinions, that is what is so great about this board.We CHOSE to leave, yes for financial reasons, but we were young. IT WAS OUR CHOICE, a choice we regretted over the years, but nobody forced us. It was the Labour party that was in power when we left, the party of the working class. Harold McMillan. My family and Allan's family all remained in Scotland and had a good life. they all own their own homes, have cars and holiday abroad. They also work hard

Posted by: Ronnie Fleming 20th Oct 2012, 04:32pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 20th Oct 2012, 11:11am) *
For a start Ronnie what about no further education fee's for our young, or no prescription charges, free travel for our pensioners, council taxes frozen year on year, NHS Scotland operating at higher efficiency rates than their English equivalent, biggest economic growth in UK outside London, unemployment rate lower than UK average...........Before i go on any further Ronnie, how about you giving me some examples of what successive Westminster Governments have given Scotland over the past 50 years?

That should't be too difficult for you, as the few examples i have given only cover the five years that the SNP have been in power, promise's that they have delivered with one hand tied behind their back, so giving you ten times that period should make for some pretty impressive reading.

The floor is yours Ronnie.

Well thanks for the opportunity I would like to say that the council tax was frozen before SNP became the majority. Freezing council tax free precription bus passes and heating allowance are all well deserved for those who need it , preciptions free for the less well off and not for those in full time employment. I am approaching 60 next month I dont want any hand out from anyone id rather donate it back into the system. More importantly all of this cost money and subsequently jobs. Freezing the council tax will cost jobs.

The Scottish goverment his hell bent in wind farms billions of pounds is being spent (funded by you and I) through our utility bills you aint ever going to reap the benefit,, other countries have already scrapped the idea on wind farms. The future is nuclear westminster and the Scottish parliment dont want to put their name to it, AS because until last week was up for getting rid of Faslane, and DC because they dont want to invest in all of our futures both paties are poles apart in that respect.
Regards
R

Posted by: SgtBilko 20th Oct 2012, 04:44pm

Not sure of any strong argument in favour of allowing ex-pats to vote, nor am i aware of loud demands from the ex-pats themselves for such a power. But there is something of an irony in the fact that many ex-pats are very proud of their country, want the best possible future for it and the Scottish people and probably do a lot to promote the nation throuout the world regardless of the reasons why they left in the first place. And yet the power of vote will be given to a significant proportion of those simply because they live here, many of whom I interact with daily, who avoid paying taxes, who take our NHS for granted and regularly defraud it, who take the country and its social care and education for granted, who have no respect for the basic laws of the country, who have little concept of social responsibility, and as any visit to Glasgows city centre on a Saturday evening will clearly demonstrate, do nothing to promote a positive image for the country. We can only hope that in the lead-up to casting their vote, the fog will lift and they have a small period of clarity of thought and analysis of what is really important around them and be sure in their own mind of what they are voting for, regardless of what way they vote. This is no time for a tabloid level of analysis or understanding.

Posted by: beth 20th Oct 2012, 05:31pm

SgtBilko, thank you, on behalf of all us ex-pats. Yes we are very proud of our homeland although we CHOSE to leave, and all of us had good reasons. Non of us, I am sure, criticise it and most of us look through rose tinted specs. We have paid our stamps in the hope that one day we would move home. $0 years ago yesterday we left for 2 years. we never wanted to be songers when we came home so even when times were tough, we paid our pension dues. BUT that does not give me the right to vote in the Independence ballot. I am NOT currently living in Scotland and unless the dugs die, I will not be living there in 2014

Posted by: farrochie 20th Oct 2012, 08:00pm

A few comments and questions have come my way (Thanks, wee davy!). I am committed to Independence for Scotland and I have gone out and looked for answers myself, whether that be economy, defence or whatever. What I do know is that I run a wee business, and that all my corporation tax and VAT and all my income tax, NICs, fuel tax etc, is all taken by Westminster. Deductions are made by the Treasury, Westminster decides how our money will be spend and some money comes back to Scotland. We get little say in how the Tories spend our money, I'm sure most Scots will agree on that. Better for us to make our own decisions.

I am asked by DannyH:
"Where did you get the information that "Scotland will have its own defence force appropriate to the risks that we face ", etc?"

This is a good question. I was quoting partly from the booklet "Your Scotland Your Future" which sets out answers to many questions that have already been addressed by the Scottish Government. But I will agree much more detail needs to be provided and we have to press both sides, YES and NO, for their future plans for Scotland. This is no different than the situation we find ourselves in with the Westminster Governments of whatever hue. How often does a London administration carry out a defence review resulting in further cuts to the services, or places our troops into foreign conflicts of dubious legality.

ayeyuya. You said the SG is not spending money on the central belt. I said the new Forth Bridge is an example. You then diverted to argument to discuss the merits of that bridge, which is a completely different topic. If you follow this link you will see what the Scottish Government's plans are for the Central Belt. : http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2012/03/3099/258154

Quite some money is coming the way of the Central Belt when the Commonwealth Games are held in Glasgow 2014, but there is much more.

Posted by: DannyH 20th Oct 2012, 11:11pm

Hello again Farrochie

Thank you sincerely for your reply to my question regarding the source of your information; much appreciated.

I fully understand that Westminster Governments of all persuasions have implemented or wish to implement cuts to the size of the UK's armed forces, but the reality now facing the SNP is, what size will our armed forces be? Will we have a navy? Who will build the ships? Is it a done deal that they will be built on the Clyde or will EU rules force us to go out to tender for contracts abroad? Will we have an Air Force?

I ask these questions because we can't have our cake and eat it. Alec Salmond is determined to keep us in Europe. Therefore we would have to abide by their rules if he gets his way. So that raises another question, will the SNP hold a referendum in Scotland to let the Scottish people decide if they want to stay in the EU?

I know I am probably coming across as someone who is anti independence, but I am not. I just want to know what the SNP policies are, and how they are going to fund them, in major areas such as Armed Forces, Pensions, National Health etc.

Alec Salmond got a standing ovation today, but did he spell out any policies to the nation? Apparently the star of the conference was a 12 year old boy from Pollokshields, who spoke passionately aout why we should have independence. This says it all for me. It was easy for both speakers to get up on a stage and get their audience excited. They gave the audience what they wanted to hear. It is quite another thing to deliver the goods that were promised, come independence.

Regards to all

Danny Harris


Posted by: G-Man 21st Oct 2012, 12:36am

I'm replying before reading through the whole thread so apologies if repeating others posts/views.

I vote SNP as I want and always have wanted to live in an independent Scotland. SNP has been the only party who have offered this since I was able to vote. I don't support all of the SNP's policies, in fact I support very few but independence has always been so very important to me.
My family was a Labour family but my grandpa became very disillusioned with them and near the end of his life turned against them in a strong way and moved towards the SNP. He was a major influence in my life so I have to suppose his views may have coloured mine to some extent.
Living in a country where the ruling party have no support in mainstream media or print I've found the internet invaluable in researching the pro's and cons of independence. But there are many people like my mother in law who has no interest in computers and her views are based solely on the incredibly biased Daily Record and/or Sun newspapers. So for this reason I support the rights of those who are 16 years and 10 months and above the right to vote as hopefully they are more savvy in looking beyond the mainstream media.
I know Alex Salmond is the human equivalent of marmite but I hope people can look past the man to the party and to its main objective.

Posted by: Melody 21st Oct 2012, 07:05am

Great post G-Man, I thoroughly agree that the young should have been given a vote and believe that they are far more politically informed these days. They are also a generation which have been thrown on the scrap heap with what looks like a foreseeable future of poverty.

Posted by: farrochie 21st Oct 2012, 01:45pm

QUOTE (DannyH @ 21st Oct 2012, 12:26am) *
but the reality now facing the SNP is, what size will our armed forces be? Will we have a navy? Who will build the ships? Is it a done deal that they will be built on the Clyde or will EU rules force us to go out to tender for contracts abroad? Will we have an Air Force?

will the SNP hold a referendum in Scotland to let the Scottish people decide if they want to stay in the EU?

Danny,

Thanks for the further comments and questions. I am in a somewhat similar position as yourself, trying to figure out how things will shape up in an independent Scotland. Now, no country wants to give away its entire defence strategy, so you can imagine that certain aspects of defence and security have to be kept under wraps.

But here is what I would do. I would have my defence department figure out where our credible risks come from, what resources Scotland would need to protect or defend these, and determine a realistic level of response including alliances. The world has changed a lot since countries were prepared to send millions of people on to open battle fields, but new risks are emerging all the time. There is no reason why Scotland cannot live in peace with its neighbours so I believe we could form good air and naval alliances across the north east Atlantic from Greenland, through Iceland, Faroes, Ireland and Norway to Denmark. Globally, I think Scotland would play its part in the UN.

As to Europe, this is going to be a big question for Scotland, however it is already a bigger question for England. I really think that Cameron has already nailed his colours to the mast with his promise of an In or Out Referendum a tactic that is likely to see the Tories re-elected. Many Tories, along with UKIP, and middle England in general, want to withdraw from the EU. Now I am not sure what is the best for Scotland. Instinctively, I like the single currency, which is getting through its first major crisis. But remember "black Wednesday" when peerie Norrie Lamont had to withdraw the UK from the exchange rate mechanism, and George Soros made a billion short selling the pound! But what I would like is that in Scotland we have our own decision making process for deciding the extent of our involvement in Europe's institutions, rather than Westminster (pandering to Middle England) taking our decisions for us.

For me it is that simple, and I think we have people who have the vision and the calibre to take Scotland forward. But we do have to keep asking for answers to our questions and all sides have to provide the answers to what their vision is for Scotlands future, whether that be the status quo or a future as a fully independent country.

Regards,

Jimmy

Posted by: Doug1 21st Oct 2012, 03:29pm

People wanting independence are forever going on about this great vision for Scotland in the future which is fair enough. I look forward to seeing just how we are going to build up the military forces we need to protect our country. Military jets for our two big bases, coastal protection warships to protect our fishing fleets, an army to protect our shores and citizens. I work in the licenced trade and just recently a guy at the bar was going on about how the wealthy and big businesses would be taxed heavily to pay for all this expenditure plus big inward investment. Most inward investment to Europe now is in fact going to the far East due to lower costs and if it is not going there it going to Eastern Europe so why should we believe it will come to us and in any case the Irish both, north and south, plus Wales and England will be fighting us tooth and nail for every scrap of inward investment that there may be. Another independence guy was telling me how my pension would go up considerably in an independent Scotland. When I asked him where the money was coming from I was met with the usual phrase of "dont worry mate we know where we can raise the money" It never ceases to amaze me what people will say to get you to vote !!

Posted by: john.mcn 21st Oct 2012, 04:07pm

QUOTE (Doug1 @ 21st Oct 2012, 04:44pm) *
It never ceases to amaze me what people will say to get you to vote !!


Yeah the Unionist camp does trot out some utter sh**e nowadays doesn't it? wink.gif

Posted by: Doug1 21st Oct 2012, 04:25pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 21st Oct 2012, 05:22pm) *
Yeah the Unionist camp does trot out some utter sh**e nowadays doesn't it? wink.gif


Of course they do, as do the independence parties

Posted by: wee davy 21st Oct 2012, 05:10pm

QUOTE
Ronnie, how about you giving me some examples of what successive Westminster Governments have given Scotland over the past 50 years?
jagz

Care to answer his question, Ronnie?
In fact, would ANYONE like to answer jagz's question???

Posted by: wee davy 21st Oct 2012, 05:28pm

QUOTE (DannyH @ 21st Oct 2012, 12:26am) *
Alec Salmond got a standing ovation today, but did he spell out any policies to the nation? Apparently the star of the conference was a 12 year old boy from Pollokshields, who spoke passionately aout why we should have independence. This says it all for me. It was easy for both speakers to get up on a stage and get their audience excited. They gave the audience what they wanted to hear. It is quite another thing to deliver the goods that were promised, come independence.

Regards to all

Danny Harris

I cannot think of anyone better, to pose the case for a new, fledgling nation, Danny.

As for your questions - the only way you will get them is to 'try the coat on, and see if it fits'?

Posted by: farrochie 21st Oct 2012, 05:43pm

Doug1

I think your questions on economics and finances get to the heart of the Independence issue, with many people prepared to make their voting decision on the basis of whether they will be "better off". Defence and security are of course important but we do already have entitlement to a share of the UK defence resources which we have subscribed to and a history of providing service personnel over and above expectation based on our population size.

If you think logically about financing of Scotland's welfare and pension needs, would you come to the conclusion that Scotland gets a great deal from Westminster? In spite of the booms and busts of successive less-than-competent Westminster administrations, we have retained strong financial institutions here in Scotland. Our administrations in Scotland have shown themselves to be financially competent. (OK, some complain that John Swinney is too much like an accountant, well that's what makes him good at finance).

I hope you'll keep thinking about all these questions, be critical of everything you hear, especially fae the punters in the pub, and look for the facts. There are also strong British institutions (I include the press and broadcasting) that have a vested interest in keeping things the way they are. I hardly need to mention the Westminster MPs and Lords that are mintin it on our tax money.

I think Independence will offer a refreshing new future for Scotland. Even if we don't always get things right, we need to be able to have confidence in our own decisions.















Posted by: Doug1 21st Oct 2012, 06:04pm

Thank you visitor for you reply. Of course I will remain open minded but as I have said in many posts before, I was born a British citizen and that is what I want to be. I am in no way convinced by the theoretical assumptions that things will be better. You know just as I do that politicians of all parties will say anything to get elected. I am so amused when I hear of the SNP talking in very friendly terms about the Queen and how she will be made most welcome. Maybe Alex Salmon really believes that but if independence ever comes lets see how the Queen and other royals will feel about visiting a foreign country as a private citizens. I think the guys I meet at work are the true face of Independence and I dont like it !! I have listened to the SNP for most of my life but I notice now they are softening up their attitudes and making it look like we will still be members of a nice big happy family after independence. Anyone who think that is in cloud cuckoo land.

Posted by: john.mcn 21st Oct 2012, 06:19pm

I have no idea where you get your information from, the queen will remain the queen of Scotland when independence comes around. She will no more visit Scotland as a private citizen anymore than she would Canada, New Zealand, Australia etc, etc, etc.


Btw the way, the guys at your work aren't the true face of independence but a section of it. Just as the likes of the BNP, UVF, UDA aren't the true face of unionism.

Posted by: bilbo.s 21st Oct 2012, 06:24pm

Doug, As there is at present no plan to make Scotland a republic, the Queen would still be Queen of Scots, just as she is Queen of the Commonwealth countries, and would not be visiting a foreign country. I must say I have serious doubts about your claims to being open minded. You seem to have a reactionary attitude to independence, based on the attitude of clientele of your local hostelry. There are heid-bangers on all sides of politics.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 21st Oct 2012, 07:03pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 21st Oct 2012, 06:25pm) *
jagz

Care to answer his question, Ronnie?
In fact, would ANYONE like to answer jagz's question???

I was giving Ronnie a bit of time to respond to my question wee davy as i had stupidly asked him to give me examples over fifty years, so i can only imagine his keyboard has worn away typing so many examples, i know i had to stop for a break giving my response to Ronnie's question, and i only had a 5 year period of SNP rule, so i am really looking forward to reading his list.

He actually responded to my post, but only to point out that the SNP were actually a minority government when they introduced the council tax freeze and he that had specifically asked what they had done since becoming a majority government (silly me) of course what i should have said was, the have continued to freeze council taxes.

Like i have said i'll give him time to compile his list, but it's not just Ronnie, i have asked Ayeyuya two questions over the last day or so and still no reply, the first was when i asked if i cant trust HM Treasury and IMF financial figures, then where can i go to get the figures, then he's on posting a question to Farrochie (no doubt fully expecting a reply) but then quotes an alleged statement from Norway's minister for petroleum and oil which claimed Scottish oil predictions are a "Pipe Dream" of which i am still waiting for a reply as to the source of this statement.

The fact that i disproved his claim that "Spain will block Scotland's entry to the EU" makes me think his Norwegian claim will also be false, but then again he wouldn't be the first unionist on here to lie or make things up, which makes me think, how many others who do not take an interest in this debate but will vote will actually fall for the lies and scare stories, as Doug1 said in a post, "These Nationalists always have an answer for every question", that's because we have to, to counter the lie's.

Posted by: wee davy 21st Oct 2012, 07:07pm

LIAR LIAR, pants on fire lol laugh.gif wink.gif

Posted by: big al 21st Oct 2012, 07:38pm

I have been watching this section with bated breath hoping against hope that I might find some real answers to the questions that are being raised and what do I find? Nothing of a substantive nature that would bring some relevance to the discussion - and there's still two years to go - my god!

I voted a long time ago for Independence when it could have meant something really substantial for Scotland not long after the oil started flowing - and we know what happened to that - this time the central government doesn't even need to use a tactical device to ensure that the vote will fail because it will - well and truly!

I live in england now and cannot vote in this referendum, but, if I could, I would vote No!

With all of the information that is widely available through various government organisations, CBI, Bank Of England, Trades Unions, European parliament papers, it is hard to see where the money required to sustain the role of an independent Scotland would be able to fit with the existing policies which are in place to underpin the current scottish government - they cannot seriously expect to retain zero payment for further education, free prescription etc without some form of higher and harder taxation or reduction in the service levels which they currently provide without running out of cash.

It would seem to be economic madness to break away in this current economic climate around the globe without having real certainty about your future and there is nothing on the table at this time that shows that Independence would be a success......

You can spend the next two years arguing the toss on this board about who is right and what will happen but the truth of the matter is that nobody knows what will happen - the same can be said for the UK as a whole - irrespective of the referendum result we don't have a clue where or what the UK will be doing.

I suggest that if you want to debate this properly you stop some of the nonsense that purports to be debate and focus on the known facts - not on the SNP wish list - people will disagree on this - it doesn't make them wrong or right.

One thing is certain - this will get a lot worse before it is resolved one way or another!!

Posted by: JAGZ1876 21st Oct 2012, 07:49pm

QUOTE (Doug1 @ 21st Oct 2012, 04:44pm) *
People wanting independence are forever going on about this great vision for Scotland in the future which is fair enough. I look forward to seeing just how we are going to build up the military forces we need to protect our country. Military jets for our two big bases, coastal protection warships to protect our fishing fleets, an army to protect our shores and citizens.

the Irish both, north and south, plus Wales and England will be fighting us tooth and nail for every scrap of inward investment that there may be.

Doug, you and i have had at least two discussions on this over on the Independence begins thread, i thought we both ended up singing from the same song sheet (obviously not) from a purely financial viewpoint the cost of defending an independent Scotland would cost a lot less than we are paying at the moment, we currently spend £3billion per year, an independent Scotland's annual defence bill would be around £1.8billion saving the Scottish tax payer in an independent Scotland around £1.2billion a year.

Like we agreed previously we are both passionate about our brave servicemen and woman, which make it hard for me to understand how you can defend this union that has cut almost 11,000 defence jobs in the last ten years, that has a 5.6billion underspend in Scotland, cuts that are still continuing and have brought the manpower of the British army to a level not seen since the 1700s.

I can tell your an honorable man Doug, so i know you will answer me when i ask you, how can you defend these cuts, and if we take your advice and vote no what level will the armed forces fall to and how will the UK government build up the military forces we need to protect our country.

As for you point about scrapping with the other nations you mentioned for inward investment.....Doug, we already are in a scrap with them, and thanks to the Scottish government were winning (Scotland has the largest rate of inward investment outside of London) and that's with one hand tied behind their backs, just think of what we could do with both hands on the controls.

Posted by: farrochie 21st Oct 2012, 07:56pm

QUOTE (Doug1 @ 21st Oct 2012, 07:19pm) *
Thank you visitor for you reply. Of course I will remain open minded but as I have said in many posts before, I was born a British citizen and that is what I want to be.

Doug1,

No-one can take away the fact that you were born a British citizen. However, you will have a future option to be a citizen of Scotland. At the moment our passports do not even say that we are Scottish, even though that is how most of us describe ourselves. In how many countries is that basic right denied?

British Citizenship does not prevent you holding a future Scottish or indeed other citizenship. Scottish Citizenship, likewise, will not prevent you holding citizenship in another country. As the Border Agency says: "You will not normally lose your British nationality if you become a citizen or national of another country."

Every time countries make major changes in constitutional arrangements, arrangements are made to accommodate the desires of those who want to maintain their existing citizenship over their lifetimes. Ireland is a good example, but there are more recent examples. The Czech and Slovak nations is another, and I suppose the de-unification of Norway and Sweden would be another.

So don't let anyone put you off Independence by saying you will lose your citizenship.

Regards,
farrochie

Posted by: Rab 21st Oct 2012, 07:57pm

Post 239: Well said Al. I voiced the same opinions 4 days ago and a wee bit more succinctly. I have no vote like you as I too am south of the border, but the day may come when I will return. At the moment I have no idea where the cash is coming from and the 'assurances' from Salmond et al don't fill me with the excitement that seems to emanate from some of our members. I have no vote so I don't suppose it matters, but if I may suggest a bit of advice to my fellow Scots who can and will - CAVEAT EMPTOR!

Posted by: JAGZ1876 21st Oct 2012, 08:03pm

QUOTE (big al @ 21st Oct 2012, 08:53pm) *
I voted a long time ago for Independence when it could have meant something really substantial for Scotland not long after the oil started flowing - and we know what happened to that - this time the central government doesn't even need to use a tactical device to ensure that the vote will fail because it will - well and truly!

Tell me Al, what has changed your mind over the last forty years that makes you think that Scotland, unlike every other independent nation in the world is incapable of running her own affairs.

Posted by: farrochie 21st Oct 2012, 08:13pm

QUOTE (Rab @ 21st Oct 2012, 09:12pm) *
At the moment I have no idea where the cash is coming from

Good evening, Rab.

You leave me a bit confused. Are you saying that in general you don't know where countries get their money to support public expenditure? Or, are you saying that Scotland has no such sources and must depend upon the block grant from Westminster.

Although there is dispute about the exact figures, I don't think there is any dispute that Scotland would be able to fund its requirements. I'll refer you to the official figures from Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS).

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2012/03/9525/5

Regards,
farrochie

Posted by: wee davy 21st Oct 2012, 09:17pm

Rab - for your enlightenment

In the UK, consumer law has moved away from the caveat emptor model, with laws passed that have enhanced consumer rights and allow greater leeway to return goods that do not meet legal standards of acceptance.[5] Consumer purchases are regulated by the Sale of Goods Act 1979.

Big Al - welcome once again, to the 'fray'.

I would mibbe agree with your observations upon our deliberations up to now - but lets face it - it needs to start somewhere!
By the way, you actually voted YES (as indeed I did) for Devolution, in 1979 (significant year - see previous para) for which we (Scotland) were sold a real dummy - and didn't actually GET, until 1997 (another significant year).

Think of the reasons WHY you voted the way you did.
Whilst your about it - think about the union has done for Scotland in those 50 years jagz so eloquently posed a question to (which STILL is yet to be answered!)

Posted by: big al 21st Oct 2012, 09:19pm

I don't think that I said anywhere that Scotland would not be capable of running its own affairs - I don't see anything in the current scottish government that would inspire me to believe that they could make independence work in the way that the SNP position it.

I would be interested to see which of these successful independent nations you are talking about that came from the same type of set up in the UK - you surely don't mean the russian states- or where?

I have never been in favour of devolution - at the time of the original referendum in the 70's I felt the time was right to make the move for a full separation of powers - the economic situation looked good and we had politicians that you could believe in at that time.

Now they all look like a bunch of chancers - scotland is not alone in that -I just don't believe that you would get what you want from a move to independence - at the moment there is reliance on dependence on the UK and no clear vision of how you would go forward from that - but that's the leap of faith you need to take - and it would be a leap of faith - I just cannot see anyone in scottish politics today with the ability to make it happen properly.

I could be wrong - and so could you - let's wait and see - I just don't intend to spend the next two years arguing the toss about it - over and out.

Posted by: Doug1 21st Oct 2012, 09:22pm

Jagz Post #240

Thanks for you reply. I am a bit more vociferous now as the campaign hots up but just set out my stance again. I am not in any way a royalist or a supporter of any of the big parties I am the proverbial "man on the Clapham bus" or as others might say the "innocent bystander" and I am determined to have my say and to question anything that affects the future of my country. The problem with the debate is that the great silent majority say little, perhaps they dont have access to forums or twitter etc or just cant be bothered so thats why i like to put my tuppence worth in

Posted by: wee davy 21st Oct 2012, 09:23pm

bad case of hiccups, there al lol wink.gif

Posted by: A Mackinnon 21st Oct 2012, 09:24pm

Well someone here in Toronto just bought a bottle of 55 year old Glenfiddich single malt for $52,000, about 32,721 GBP shock3.gif

Do you folks have a few more bottles for sale? biggrin.gif

Posted by: DannyH 21st Oct 2012, 10:12pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 21st Oct 2012, 07:43pm) *
I cannot think of anyone better, to pose the case for a new, fledgling nation, Danny.

As for your questions - the only way you will get them is to 'try the coat on, and see if it fits'?

Hello Wee Davy

The problem with 'try the coat on and see if is fits', is , if we get Independence, it is too late if the coat doesn't fit. If you are in a shop buying a coat and it doesn't fit, you just hand it back and walk away.

Regards

Danny Harris

Posted by: Rab 21st Oct 2012, 10:57pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 21st Oct 2012, 10:32pm) *
Rab - for your enlightenment

In the UK, consumer law has moved away from the caveat emptor model, with laws passed that have enhanced consumer rights and allow greater leeway to return goods that do not meet legal standards of acceptance.[5] Consumer purchases are regulated by the Sale of Goods Act 1979.

Davy! You might have guessed that I knew all this! yes.gif In the context of my Latin quote, surely you knew that I was not referring to the purchase of a consumer product, but using it in the general term of 'Buyer beware' which was exactly my advice for those voters being sold ANY political promises from whatever quarter, particularly regarding the, to me, dangerously deep waters of independence. Sorry if I have to spell it out, but I don't want you to buy a Pup! wink.gif

Farrochie. Like Davy, I am sure you do not think I am so dumb that I do not know how countries obtain their wealth to run themselves. I was speaking in general terms over the loooong term. Others, more knowledgeable than me on this forum have explained the same worries much more eloquently than I. As for your GERS, you must learn that all governments produce figures to prove or assist their case and if you chose to believe them at face value, I wish you the best of luck. However, I 'hae ma doots' and I truly hope one day I will not have to say - I told you so -not that I would. As Al says, lets wait and see. wink.gif

Posted by: wee davy 21st Oct 2012, 11:35pm

Of course I knew the context within which you used your Latin.
However the only reason I stood to hastened to introduce a caveat to a caveat, was to point out, we (the scottish people) have only one person to to blame, if we get stuck wi 'same old, same old'.

Boldy go, where no (modern) man has gone before - seek new worlds - and one just might find the grass IS greener on the other side.

Faint heart never won a fair maiden.

(Look whit happened tae poor charlie windsor!)

Posted by: Isobel 22nd Oct 2012, 03:53am

At the end of the day it will be real interesting to see how much of a voter turnout you will get. unsure.gif

Posted by: Dave Grieve 22nd Oct 2012, 06:45am

QUOTE (Isobel @ 22nd Oct 2012, 06:08am) *
At the end of the day it will be real interesting to see how much of a voter turnout you will get. unsure.gif


It maybe Isobel that this is a case for a compulsary vote.

Posted by: farrochie 22nd Oct 2012, 08:35am

QUOTE (Rab @ 22nd Oct 2012, 12:12am) *
Farrochie. Like Davy, I am sure you do not think I am so dumb that I do not know how countries obtain their wealth to run themselves. I was speaking in general terms over the loooong term.

Hi Rab,
You said "I have no idea where the cash is coming from", but you really do know where the cash is coming from. So, I think you are probably very well placed to explain how Scotland can and will fund its public spending. Recently, Scotland has helped fund a £35 billion "black hole" in the defence budget, the Olympic Games and a war in Iraq. Our MPs in Westminster have been caught (and are still being caught) doing well out of their expense arrangements. What I am saying is that none of these issues is answerable to Scotland, as we have such a small representation at Westminster. Yet they have major impacts on Scotland. I believe that we can do better if we raise and spend our own revenues, not have it "filtered" through Westminster. What do you think? Am I wrong about Westminster's abuse of the public purse and the lack of accountability to Scotland?
Regards,
farrochie

Posted by: wee davy 22nd Oct 2012, 11:15am

QUOTE
Am I wrong about Westminster's abuse of the public purse and the lack of accountability to Scotland?


Sorry to answer a question, but is the Pope a Catholic?

Posted by: john.mcn 22nd Oct 2012, 11:50am

QUOTE (wee davy @ 22nd Oct 2012, 12:30pm) *
Sorry to answer a question, but is the Pope a Catholic?


So you think he's wrong then ?

wink.gif

Posted by: wee davy 22nd Oct 2012, 12:44pm

lol read it that way if you like.
I'm the only right one round here - aint that right, Dylan?

Posted by: Isobel 22nd Oct 2012, 01:18pm

QUOTE
It maybe Isobel that this is a case for a compulsary vote.


Good idea Dave

Posted by: Dylan 22nd Oct 2012, 01:26pm

IMO Democracy is the right to vote but also the right to abstain.

If we prosecute and criminalise people who abstain, we are on a slippery road.!!!

Unless we prosecute and punish/jail , them there is no case to make it compulsory.?


Posted by: JAGZ1876 22nd Oct 2012, 03:04pm

QUOTE (Doug1 @ 21st Oct 2012, 10:37pm) *
Jagz Post #240

Thanks for you reply. I am a bit more vociferous now as the campaign hots up but just set out my stance again. I am not in any way a royalist or a supporter of any of the big parties I am the proverbial "man on the Clapham bus" or as others might say the "innocent bystander" and I am determined to have my say and to question anything that affects the future of my country. The problem with the debate is that the great silent majority say little, perhaps they dont have access to forums or twitter etc or just cant be bothered so thats why i like to put my tuppence worth in

I don't have a problem with any of the above Doug, but you failed to respond to the two questions i posed to you.

How do you defend the Westminster defence cuts over the last ten years?

If we take your advice and vote no, how will the UK government build up the military forces we need to protect our country?

Posted by: Dave Grieve 22nd Oct 2012, 03:14pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 22nd Oct 2012, 05:19pm) *
I don't have a problem with any of the above Doug, but you failed to respond to the two questions i posed to you.

How do you defend the Westminster defence cuts over the last ten years?

If we take your advice and vote no, how will the UK government build up the military forces we need to protect our country?

Sorry for butting in Jagz but if the money needed was only to defend the UK it wouldent be a problem, the problem the UK taxpayer has is the war mongering politicians from all the main parties that think they are living in the 17th century.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 22nd Oct 2012, 03:53pm

QUOTE (big al @ 21st Oct 2012, 10:34pm) *
I don't think that I said anywhere that Scotland would not be capable of running its own affairs - I don't see anything in the current scottish government that would inspire me to believe that they could make independence work in the way that the SNP position it.

I would be interested to see which of these successful independent nations you are talking about that came from the same type of set up in the UK - you surely don't mean the russian states- or where?


at the moment there is reliance on dependence on the UK and no clear vision of how you would go forward from that

and it would be a leap of faith

Hi again Al, the fact that you have said that you would vote against independence, and again above, you don,t see anything that would inspire you to believe that they would make independence work, then clearly you think that the people of Scotland are incapable of running their own affairs.

As for other independent nations, let's stick to Commonwealth countries, countries who had had enough of Westminster rule and decided to take control of their own affairs, most of whom who can only dream of the natural resources, rich fishing grounds, highly skilled and educated workforce that Scotland has.

You have hit the nail square on the head about the reliance on dependence Al, that is the only weapon in the unionist armoury, they've been telling the people of Scotland that their dependent on the union for over three hundred years that a lot of Scots don't even question it anymore, but you're wrong Al when you say "that there is reliance on dependency on the UK and no clear vision on how to go forward from that", but there is Al, a crystal clear vision, it's called Independence, so let's all make that vision a reality, VOTE YES IN 2014.

Of course it will be a "Leap of faith" but no more than the leap of faith we will have in Westminster MPs if we vote no, and remember every time we open our front door and venture out into the big bad world, we're taking a leap of faith into the unknown, and that's what makes life exiting.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 22nd Oct 2012, 04:04pm

QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 22nd Oct 2012, 04:29pm) *
Sorry for butting in Jagz but if the money needed was only to defend the UK it wouldent be a problem, the problem the UK taxpayer has is the war mongering politicians from all the main parties that think they are living in the 17th century.

I totally agree with you Dave, but Doug questions how an independent Scotland will cope with defence issues particularly defence bases in the North and Highlands, defence forces that have been ravaged by cuts by successive Westminster governments that he want's us to remain tied to.

I am by no means defending UK foreign policy, i'm just trying to show up the unionist hypocricy to the independence debate.

And feel free to but in at anytime biggrin.gif

Posted by: DannyH 22nd Oct 2012, 10:49pm

Hello JAGZ1876

I would like to raise a couple of points regarding you post #240 dated 21st October

You state that "The cost of defending an independent Scotland would cost less than we are paying at the moment"

It is your use of the word "defending" that I have to question. This gives the impression that Scotland's armed forces would only be used if we were attacked. Sorry, but now the SNP have voted to stay in NATO, Scotland's armed forces would be used in conflicts that have nothing to do with direct attacks on Scotland.

You go on to say that an independent Scotland's annual defence bill would be around £1.8 billion. Where did you get that figure from? Did you obtain it before the SNP changed its policy and decided to stIck with NATO?

Regards

Danny Harris

Posted by: JAGZ1876 23rd Oct 2012, 05:59am

Morning Danny, yes i got the figures before the NATO announcement, but i based them on Danish armed forces annual figures as the Danes are of a size comparable to what will be required to defend Scotland and carry out any NATO duties.

Posted by: bilbo.s 23rd Oct 2012, 09:01am

[url="http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/pm-targeting-crushing-win-in-referendum.19222455[/url]

From today's Herald:

"Rebellious Scots to crush" - Has Cameron a hidden agenda to get rid of Scotland? Hope so !

Posted by: Heather 23rd Oct 2012, 11:16am

Aye Cameron is rattled at the thought of losing all the money England gets from Scottish Oil. He needs the money to fund the MPs fraudulent expenses.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Go for it Scotland.

Posted by: wee davy 23rd Oct 2012, 12:37pm

At the Battle of Dunbar, Scottish resistance was effectively crushed
(The Stone of Destiny being stolen by Longshanks)
But the opposition never won the day.

In February 1307, Bruce reappeared and started gathering men, and in May he defeated Aymer de Valence at the Battle of Loudoun Hill.[198] Edward, who had rallied somewhat, now moved north himself. On the way, however, he developed dysentery, and his condition deteriorated. On 6 July he encamped at Burgh by Sands, just south of the Scottish border. When his servants came the next morning to lift him up so that he could eat, he died in their arms.[199]

Edward I died, never having 'CRUSHED' the Scots.

Will Mr Cameron suffer the same fate, I wonder?

Posted by: DannyH 23rd Oct 2012, 10:06pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 23rd Oct 2012, 08:14am) *
Morning Danny, yes i got the figures before the NATO announcement, but i based them on Danish armed forces annual figures as the Danes are of a size comparable to what will be required to defend Scotland and carry out any NATO duties.

Hello again JAGZ1876

Thank you for the prompt honest reply, which I appreciate. I can see where you are coming from, but I sincerely hope the SNP are not going to use the same method as you to calculate Scotland's defence budget.

The Danes are descendants of the Vikings. They opted out of interfering with other countries affairs, many many years ago. It would appear that some of the SNP leadership want to keep interfering in other countries affairs. So I think Scotland's defence budget would be much higher than the Danes.

Regards

Danny Harris

Posted by: JAGZ1876 24th Oct 2012, 07:27am

QUOTE (DannyH @ 23rd Oct 2012, 11:21pm) *
Hello again JAGZ1876

Thank you for the prompt honest reply, which I appreciate. I can see where you are coming from, but I sincerely hope the SNP are not going to use the same method as you to calculate Scotland's defence budget.

The Danes are descendants of the Vikings. They opted out of interfering with other countries affairs, many many years ago. It would appear that some of the SNP leadership want to keep interfering in other countries affairs. So I think Scotland's defence budget would be much higher than the Danes.

Regards

Danny Harris

Thanks for you kind remarks Danny, this is the way a discussion board should be, debating opposing views but being civil at the same time.

I can't see why you would think that the Scottish Government wouldn't actually compare the budgets of similar sized countries, although as you have made the point, yes they'll put a lot more thought and effort into it than i have.

As for your point about and independent Scotland's defence budget being much higher than the Danes, what makes you say that?

Being a founding member of NATO (4TH April 1949) Denmark provides air support in Afghanistan and other countries as part of their alliance to NATO, a point that came back to bite David Cameron on the bum when he claimed an independent Scotland like other small nations would be "unable to commit forces on the international stage in a time of crisis" earlier this year.

So Danny, while my comparison to Denmark isn't an exact science, it gives a rough guide to what our defence budget would be, which will mean far better protection than we have at the moment, which means more conventional defence jobs than we have a the moment, while paying around £1bl less per annum than we are at the moment.

Posted by: ashfield 24th Oct 2012, 09:19am

Wasn't sure whether to post this here or on the bizarre or curious signs thread, sure is an odd one. I took this a few weeks ago in an EU country, after making some enquiries I was informed that it is common practice across the EU for a lower exchange to be given against Scottish notes. I understand that it is because the banks are giving less. Wonder what this says about a furture Scottish ecomomy?



Posted by: bilbo.s 24th Oct 2012, 09:55am

Ash, I am sure you know that, even before the EU, it has been almost impossible to get Scottish notes accepted abroad ( including Engurland !) . When it is possible, there is always likely to be a premium. I would suggest that this has more to do with confusion about Scotland having three different banknotes ( and even more, years ago) , and also the expense of handling them, probably through the Bank of England, than of any misapprehension about Scotland´s economy.

Posted by: Dave Grieve 24th Oct 2012, 10:17am

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 24th Oct 2012, 12:10pm) *
Ash, I am sure you know that, even before the EU, it has been almost impossible to get Scottish notes accepted abroad ( including Engurland !) . When it is possible, there is always likely to be a premium. I would suggest that this has more to do with confusion about Scotland having three different banknotes ( and even more, years ago) , and also the expense of handling them, probably through the Bank of England, than of any misapprehension about Scotland´s economy.


A few years ago while on holiday in the UK I stopped at a garage in Engerlund to fill up, they still had petrol pump attendants then, when I wanted to pay with a BoS Fiver he refused to accept it , I then offered him a South African credit card, so faced with the choice of a foreign credit card or a Scottish bank note he soon took the money. laugh.gif

Posted by: Ayeyuya 24th Oct 2012, 10:20am

Fit to run a Country

Contrary to Sturgeons claims, He did say that he had held talks with the Lord Advocate Frank Mulholland about this.


 

Posted by: bilbo.s 24th Oct 2012, 10:25am

What bearing does the above post have on whether Scotland should be independent ? unsure.gif

Posted by: ashfield 24th Oct 2012, 10:28am

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 24th Oct 2012, 12:10pm) *
Ash, I am sure you know that, even before the EU, it has been almost impossible to get Scottish notes accepted abroad ( including Engurland !) .

I should have mentioned that I have been going to this place every year for the last 20, this is the first time this has happened. In fact they were very happy to take Scottish notes, what could have caused the change in parctice this year rolleyes.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 24th Oct 2012, 10:46am

Ash, You should have asked them, not me. smile.gif There have also been cases reported over the years of higher rates being offered for Scottish notes, based on the mistaken idea that Scotland was separate from UK. Just as silly ! I guess you are trying to make the point that foreigners , like yourself, have no confidence in Scotland´s ability to govern itself.

Posted by: DavidT 24th Oct 2012, 11:35am

Shopkeepers worry about taking bank notes they are not familiar with. It happens here in Scotland when people from Northern Ireland present unusual looking money. This is not any kind of prejudice. It's plain old ignorance.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 24th Oct 2012, 11:54am

QUOTE (DavidT @ 24th Oct 2012, 12:50pm) *
Shopkeepers worry about taking bank notes they are not familiar with. It happens here in Scotland when people from Northern Ireland present unusual looking money. This is not any kind of prejudice. It's plain old ignorance.


As a taxi driver i accept Ulster bank notes without question.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 24th Oct 2012, 11:57am

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 24th Oct 2012, 11:10am) *
it has been almost impossible to get Scottish notes accepted abroad ( including Engurland !)


And there's the rub......Where is this one nation we keep hearing about?

Posted by: JAGZ1876 24th Oct 2012, 12:10pm

QUOTE (Ayeyuya @ 24th Oct 2012, 11:35am) *
Fit to run a Country

Contrary to Sturgeons claims, He did say that he had held talks with the Lord Advocate Frank Mulholland about this.

As bilbo.s said this is a different topic, perhaps you should start a new thread, i for one would be happy to discuss topic this with you.

By the way Ayeyuya, since your back on posting again perhaps you could answer the two questions i asked you over the weekend.

Where can i go to get the financial figures that that you have access to, as the HM Treasury and IMF ones that i use are "Pipe Dreams" and have no bearing in the"Real World"?

Also

What is your source regarding the alleged remark from the Norwegian oil minister?

Posted by: Dylan 24th Oct 2012, 12:19pm

QUOTE (Ayeyuya @ 24th Oct 2012, 11:35am) *
Fit to run a Country

Contrary to Sturgeons claims, He did say that he had held talks with the Lord Advocate Frank Mulholland about this.

Hi Ayeyuya,

Your post is valid and as valued as anyone elses and is pertient to this Thread.!!!.

It has stimulated discussion already thumbup.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 24th Oct 2012, 12:36pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 24th Oct 2012, 02:34pm) *
Hi Ayeyuya,

Your post is valid and as valued as anyone elses and is pertient to this Thread.!!!.

It has stimulated discussion already thumbup.gif

3 questions:-

1. Do you mean " pertinent" ?

2. Do you mean "simulated" ?

3. Is that a thumb or a finger?

rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Dylan 24th Oct 2012, 03:07pm

How adult and clever .

I am sure everyone is suitably impressed by your wit and spelling skills.!!

Keep it up.

Posted by: bilbo.s 24th Oct 2012, 03:20pm

Thank you. smile.gif

Posted by: Jupiter 24th Oct 2012, 04:27pm

Ive just checked the figures in our poll and its looking like a resounding YES majority.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 24th Oct 2012, 04:44pm

How can we be so far out of step with the other polls?

Glasgow is normally a strong unionist area so i am astonished by the result so far, we are getting to the 900 mark which is getting close to the sample number most polls and survey's take as an average cross section of public opinion.

Personally i am delighted, but i am no great fan of opinion poll's even if they are showing positive opinions to a subject i hold dear, yet again i say...........How can we be so far out of step with other poll's?

Posted by: farrochie 24th Oct 2012, 05:35pm

QUOTE (ashfield @ 24th Oct 2012, 10:34am) *
Wasn't sure whether to post this here or on the bizarre or curious signs thread, sure is an odd one. I took this a few weeks ago in an EU country, after making some enquiries I was informed that it is common practice across the EU for a lower exchange to be given against Scottish notes. I understand that it is because the banks are giving less. Wonder what this says about a furture Scottish ecomomy?



So, I wonder if they will give out Scottish notes in exchange for English notes? Can make a good profit here smile.gif

Posted by: Dylan 24th Oct 2012, 06:11pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 24th Oct 2012, 05:59pm) *
How can we be so far out of step with the other polls?

Glasgow is normally a strong unionist area so i am astonished by the result so far, we are getting to the 900 mark which is getting close to the sample number most polls and survey's take as an average cross section of public opinion.

Personally i am delighted, but i am no great fan of opinion poll's even if they are showing positive opinions to a subject i hold dear, yet again i say...........How can we be so far out of step with other poll's?

Now I have to be very very carefull how I word this.

So here goes.

It is possible that this Board has a higher percentage of SNP supporters than Glasgow which is normally a strong unionist area ????

Posted by: Rab 24th Oct 2012, 06:25pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 24th Oct 2012, 11:40am) *
What bearing does the above post have on whether Scotland should be independent ? unsure.gif

Why don't you ask about the banknote chat as well?

Posted by: Rab 24th Oct 2012, 06:28pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 24th Oct 2012, 01:09pm) *
As a taxi driver i accept Ulster bank notes without question.

As a permanently cash-strapped person I accept any banknotes without question! laugh.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 24th Oct 2012, 06:54pm

QUOTE (Rab @ 24th Oct 2012, 08:40pm) *
Why don't you ask about the banknote chat as well?

Rab,
Perhaps because I considered Ash´s post to be a comment on the desirability of independence, and I responded to it accordingly. I could hardly, therefore, then question the relevance of the chat. I do not, on the other hand, deem it relevant to the case for independence, whether Alex Salmond lied.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 24th Oct 2012, 08:00pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 24th Oct 2012, 07:26pm) *
It is possible that this Board has a higher percentage of SNP supporters than Glasgow which is normally a strong unionist area ????


Now with all due respect , can you provide any facts or proof for such an assumption whether real or imaginary?

Posted by: Dylan 24th Oct 2012, 09:00pm

NAW !!

Why would I ?

I am asking a question and quoting you. rolleyes.gif !!!

Posted by: Ayeyuya 25th Oct 2012, 07:10am

This board according to opinion polls is exactly opposite the views of the electorate ie 70% 30% for Yes where as Opinion Polls ( REAL ones) are 30% - 70%

---------------
Yesterday

Foreign minister José Manuel García-Margallo told the Spanish senate on Tuesday that an independent Scotland would have to go through a potentially long negotiating process and win the support of all 27 members, including Spain – directly contradicting Salmond's position on EU membership

Posted by: Dave Grieve 25th Oct 2012, 08:07am

QUOTE (Ayeyuya @ 25th Oct 2012, 09:25am) *
This board according to opinion polls is exactly opposite the views of the electorate ie 70% 30% for Yes where as Opinion Polls ( REAL ones) are 30% - 70%

---------------
Yesterday

Foreign minister José Manuel García-Margallo told the Spanish senate on Tuesday that an independent Scotland would have to go through a potentially long negotiating process and win the support of all 27 members, including Spain – directly contradicting Salmond's position on EU membership

Not an expert by any means but surely with Scotland getting independence then The United Kingdom otherwise known as Great Britain would no longer exist.
To my knowledge the UK came into being with the joining of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England, Wales and Northern Ireland were vassal territories belonging to England and came as part of the English throne.

With the breakup of Scotland and England there would no longer be a United Kingdom so both countries would have to reapply for membership.

Posted by: ashfield 25th Oct 2012, 08:08am

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 24th Oct 2012, 09:09pm) *
Rab,
Perhaps because I considered AshŽs post to be a comment on the desirability of independence, and I responded to it accordingly.

No, that was not my point at all. I haven't made my mind up about independence, there are too many questions to be answered yet. Salmond saying do I want to be governed by the Tory toffs or him doesn't make for a great choice, sadly. I would like to decide on issues rather than personalities thank you.

As I said in my post, over the past twenty years I have been able to exchange Scottish banknotes at the same rate as those from the rest of the UK, for some reason this has changed over the last three or four months. All the locals can tell me is that the banks are initiating the change, one assumes because the Bank of England is applying a similar lower rate. All I was saying was, why now and is there more than just a handling issue involved.

(ps, yes I know that Scottish money is not legal tender, thank you rolleyes.gif )

Posted by: bilbo.s 25th Oct 2012, 08:23am

Ash, I obviously misunderstood your angle on this, for which I apologise, but your attitude to independence has previously leaned towards the negative. As can be seen from my posts, I also abhor this debate being about personalities , or even political parties.

As for your currency exchange problems, I must say that , in my travels, I do not recall the Scottish pound being given equal status to English notes, when accepted at all. Admittedly , in recent years I have never been in the habit of carrying Sterling cash abroad, only using ATMs. My sister, who lives in the dark ages in North Lanarkshire always carries English currency, as she does not even possess a current account. If, as you say, this is a recent development where you go on holiday, then I would strongly suspect some political motive.

Bill

P:S: The only legal tender in Scotland are coins - no notes.


Posted by: DavidT 25th Oct 2012, 08:48am

Re banknotes
I wonder if changes to the Bank of Ireland (UK) plc have anything to do with the difference in exchange rates for Scottish, Northern Irish and other UK notes. Earlier this year the Bank of Ireland became liable for the backup of their own notes (cannot rely on the Bank of England). This shouldn't affect the rates of other UK notes.

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/Pages/about/scottish_northernireland.aspx

Posted by: wee davy 25th Oct 2012, 09:08am

Foreign minister José Manuel García-Margallo with the greatest respect needs to go and read his membership rule book again.