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Glasgow Boards/Forums _ Glasgow News Blog _ Glasgow: Worst Schools In Britain?

Posted by: GG 14th Sep 2011, 11:56pm

Research by one of the country's leading teaching unions has revealed that Glasgow schools are the worst in Britain when it comes to ensuring that children leave with any qualifications. The survey, by the University and College Union (UCU), shows a clear educational gulf across the UK, with Glasgow firmly rooted at the bottom of educational attainment levels.

Worst in the British league table was the Glasgow North East constituency where a staggering 35% of adults have no qualifications at all. Other constituencies joining the Springburn-centred constituency in the 'top 10' of the educational roll of shame included Glasgow East (4th worst) and Glasgow South West (8th worst).

Speaking about the figures, Sally Hunt, the UCU's general secretary said:

QUOTE
"There is a clear Glasgow-Edinburgh divide in Scotland. One city with education and the massive personal benefits it can bring, and the other without.

Education is central to our country's future, yet in some areas thousands of people still have no qualifications. There is a real danger that children, growing up in places where it is not unheard of to have no qualifications, will have their ambition blunted and never realise their full potential."

A Glasgow City Council spokeswoman responded:
QUOTE
"We will continue to work to ensure every young person leaves school with the skills and confidence to equip them for later life. The council is committed to improve the life chances of every young person in our schools.

Glasgow has been leading the way in a range of qualifications, matching the individual needs of the pupil, and youngsters have been very successful in gaining vocational qualifications in partnership with our colleges."


Tell us about your experiences of Glasgow schools - were they the best days or your life, or do you regret that they did not help you reach your full potential?

GG.

Posted by: murphy 15th Sep 2011, 01:48am

I went to Wellshot School in Tollcross, Glasgow East End, as I have caught up with classmates they have good jobs and are all over the world, maybe the system has changed over the years, but dont you think school is what children put into their learning experiences. I think the parents need to be more involved in their childrens' schooling. I certainly learned a lot and it has stood me in great stead, God bless the Miss Chisholms, Mary and Jean.

Posted by: terry 15th Sep 2011, 02:08am

An interesting topic to be sure. i went to saint gerards in govan for 4 1/2 years leaving half way through the 5th year. sad to say i experienced utter boredom for most of those years. and my lot was not too unusual because most of those who had started off with me in year 1 were gone well before my departure. pity. as it turned out i picked up on my education when i came to america and eventually ended my career as a professor in my adopted country.
tr

Posted by: tarheels 15th Sep 2011, 02:12am

Both of you spoke very clearly about your schooling, i think what a young person puts into his or her school work is what they will gain in life , in ferndale michigan usa , the school i attended didn't give me what i needed in life , it was after that i earned my engineers degree in the army , but i don't think what a school teaches is going to make us great , its what you do afterwards that makes the differants, i am 74 years young , an still learning , God Bless the Teachers, they can only do what they do best , TEACH , READING , MATH., THE FUNDIMENTALS OF SCHOOLING
clarence potter sr or tarheels, or reilly on the net
my 2 cents worth

Posted by: rumcdonald 15th Sep 2011, 02:18am

This is so sad! Who are the pupils in Glasgow schools now?? Who are their parents? What is their upbringing? I went to two public junior schools in Glasgow..Holmlea Rd school in Holmlea Rd Cathcart and Victoria school in Govanhill Glasgow...then Queen's Park Senior Sec School. Had a great education!!! What is going on now?????

Posted by: John the Jaw 15th Sep 2011, 04:08am

I went to Albert Secondary in Springburn, leaving in '76, and was one of the guys who went through the motions of going to school not achieving many certificates, 2 o'levels. It has taken years to understand that there were some kids that the teachers give up on because they are so overwhelmed by the system. 35 in a class at the time wasn't unheard off.

With schools now having up to 36 different languages it is no wonder the education system is failing the poorer parts of the country.


Posted by: crunchiebags 15th Sep 2011, 05:17am

Rumcdonald asks whats going on now in our schools. I would answer possibly the modern equivalent of what I experienced in my secondary school in the late sixties early seventies. We were taught by a gang of old dinosaurs, who wore billowing black cloaks and who's battle cry was "keep to the left" and "boys stairs for boys and girls stairs for girls". It used to be a senior secondary but those days had long gone, a fact which the incumbent staff seemed to be unaware of. We had a very old Maths teacher who smelled of urine and used inappropriate behaviour towards the female students. An English teacher who, if not already pissed, would leave the class and have a snort in the adjacent store room, (sometimes forgetting to come back). There were, of course, young teachers coming through the ranks but I think they felt as helpless as the pupils. Half of these older guys should have been retired early to prevent the embarassment they brought on themselves personally and the school in general.

Posted by: GG 15th Sep 2011, 07:14am

Herald columnist Ian Bell on this subject:

QUOTE
It counts as another of those distinctions a great city could do without ... in terms of education, Glasgow is a catastrophe.

There is no other useful word, but nor is there a useful explanation. Governments come and go. Wave after wave of reforms are enacted. Brave promises are made, generation after generation. And in 2011 the Glasgow North East constituency achieves the worst educational rating in the entire United Kingdom. Of its children, 35.3% have left school – have been allowed to leave school – with not a single qualification.

This is not just a matter of abstruse, difficult subjects, or even of those courses which are, in legend, “dumbed down” or “too easy”. UCU is saying that in north-east Glasgow 35.3% are functionally illiterate, certainly innumerate, and as ignorant of the world – of how the world works – as visitors from another, barren planet. By this measure, even the notion of vocational education is a joke.

You could console yourself, or find a feeble excuse, in the idea that a single constituency is uniquely afflicted. That won’t do. The UCU further reports that every last part of Glasgow is below the UK average for attainment in exams, while every Edinburgh constituency sits in the top third. As a native of the capital, even I’m surprised. The conclusion is not that Edinburgh is entitled to boast – not by a long chalk – but that Glasgow’s crisis is profound. ...

Full comment article here:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/ian-bell/why-lessons-must-be-learned-from-this-catastrophic-failure-1.1113607

GG.

Posted by: GG 15th Sep 2011, 07:32am

Posted by Agnes McManus via the 'report' button:

QUOTE
My nephew asked me to check over his homework, an essay which he was to hand in the following the following day. When I pointed out his spelling mistakes he told me that because we all use computers now, spelling is not important because we have a spell check which corrects your mistakes.

Lookin through his book I found the teacher totally ignored spelling mistakes. Not the way forward I think!

GG.

Posted by: Melody 15th Sep 2011, 07:40am

And they try to tell us that there is no direct correlation between poverty and educational success. dry.gif

Posted by: Norman G 15th Sep 2011, 07:52am

Another feather in the cap of the Labour administration.
But never mind, just vote them in again.

Posted by: *jacmac471* 15th Sep 2011, 07:59am

I was saddened to read this.

I attended Finnieston school , left in 1962, was sorry to leave ,because the teachers really cared for us ,and taught us well. I did not leave with any qualifications as such, but passed all my examinations.

They also instilled a sense of discipline and common decency ,which I feel is lacking in some quarters today ,and of course this should start in the home.

I went on to further my qualifications (electrical) at night school, and colleges through the years and, have travelled and worked around the world in an electrical consultancy capacity.

A lot can be achieved with hard work and determination.

Regards, John Mccabe Msc Miee Cibse Iosh.

Posted by: *greta* 15th Sep 2011, 08:17am

I have to say they were the best days of my life, although I didnt know it at the time. Speaking from personal experience I went to Barmulloch primary before my family decided (due to my fathers new job) to move south. When I got to my new school (in a rural area) it was discovered that my level of education was above that of the new school and I was moved up a primary. It may be different now I dont know but thats my experience of that time.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 15th Sep 2011, 08:24am

QUOTE
... When I pointed out his spelling mistakes he told me that because we all use computers now, spelling is not important because we have a spell check which corrects your mistakes.

Mmmm ... and what spell check does the spell check have?
That and "Txting" might have a lot to answer for.

I once attended an evening class; over here, to help me learn German. There were about 20 or more in the class and all of different nationalities including Chinese. The class could only advance as fast as the slowest student. Seeing that right away, I quit.

As a kid in school just outside Glasgow, lagging behind was discouraged. Pupils were pushed on to keep up with the rest of the class.
Maybe that's what went wrong.

Posted by: British Power 15th Sep 2011, 08:46am

Like Terry, I too went to St Gerard's S.S. School and, regrettably, did not fare too well there. However, that had very little to do with the School, the System or the Teachers, it was down to myself. Retrospectively, there is no doubt that the opportunities were there, in abundance, as many others went on to prove - this was purely a personal problem and difficulties I happened to be going through at that stage in my life.

I think that the schools do as good a job as can be expected of them given the myriad of changes, not all for the best, that have taken place within the education system over the last 30-40 years. It is not the schools nor teaching staff that gives me any cause for concern in the present times, it is the attitude of the public in general and certain parents in particular, some of which is deplorable and has a deleterious impact on their children if they could but take a step back and look at what they are doing.

Small wonder that teachers leave the profession early or embark on long-term sick leave with depression and/or stress disorders.

Oh, yes, and the various Governments have not exactly covered themselves in glory where the education system is concerned - they are the root and branch cause of much many of the present-day problems.

As someone who made a spectacular hash of his own education, perhaps I have a bit of a cheek articulating in the manner I have done. However, I put five children through Universities after their normal schooling and have therefore had first hand experience over the last 25 years of the education system and believe it is in reasonable shape overall - I think ! smile.gif

Posted by: Hank Green 15th Sep 2011, 09:51am

My schooldays in Glasgow ended in 1939 and they were happy and rewarding. I left Shawlands Academy and planned to continue to post-secondary education but the start of WW2 helped to change my plans. I went to work at the Glasgow Herald and in 1942 I entered the Royal Navy. On my discharge I entered Glasgow University and on graduation I emigrated to Canada. In Canada after one year I returned to studies and made a career in academia. I have always upheld the Glasgow School System. I married a Canadian sweetheart and have raised a Canadian family but I have never forgot the happiness of my early schooling.

Posted by: *alybainfan* 15th Sep 2011, 10:07am

I attended Knightswood Senior Secondary as it was then.. in the late 60's, and I have to say even back then Teachers concentrated almost wholly on the smarter cleverer pupils and pretty much left the rest of us get on with by ourselves.

I don't believe this is a new phenomenon unfortunately.

Posted by: amclpreston 15th Sep 2011, 10:37am

QUOTE (murphy @ 15th Sep 2011, 02:34am) *
I went to Wellshot School in Tollcross, Glasgow East End, as I have caught up with classmates they have good jobs and are all over the world, maybe the system has changed over the years, but dont you think school is what children put into their learning experiences. I think the parents need to be more involved in their childrens' schooling. I certainly learned a lot and it has stood me in great stead, God bless the Miss Chisholms, Mary and Jean.

Wellshot Road School was my first school, in 1957/58. My father worked as a gardener in Tollcross Park, and we lived in a flat in the park Mansion House.

I don't remember too much. What I do recall is feeling really lonely in the playground, lots of latch-key kids, and also the day I dropped my pencil in class. It rolled away, I told the teacher, she said that if I couldn't find it, and she had to lend me one, she would belt me. I can'r recall whether she did belt me, or whether she didn't, or whether I've just blanked it out.

Place to get out of, imo .

My father later became a teacher, and as he improved his career, the family moved every few years. First Milngavie, then Stranraer both primary and High School.

Far too easy to get beltings and thrashings in Scottish schools, in my opinion. And the belting, or threats of belting on 5 year olds, was beyond the pale.

Posted by: Scotsman 15th Sep 2011, 12:20pm

I went to Strathbungo Senior Secondary School for a while and I found that the level of teaching was a decent standard for most of the time but I kind of lost interest.... maybe the tachers could have done more??

I think the standard of education in Glasgow schools today is appalling compared to what it was when there was a system of senior secondaries who taught the brightest and best pupils. I think the teachers in todays comprehensive schools in Glasgow are just serving their time until they can get a job outside of the city or until they retire. A very poor standard indeed but do we ever hear politicians complaining.... let alone acting to make things better for our children??

Posted by: Southside jim 15th Sep 2011, 12:51pm

I attended Victoria primary in govanhill as well as copeland primary in govan. Both were really well run schools,and the teachers really helped you.

Then it was onto queen's park secondary ! Some of the staff didn't really bother as long as you held in your homework on time, and didn't disrupt the class. They were ok with what you did.

Now my sons schools years are totally different !! They attended victoria primary for 3yrs before moving to cuthbertson primary. And the teaching in both schools are terrible !

Is it the teachers or the way the government try and focus on various PC related issue's !

My son's were tested for dyslexia ! Tests went on for yrs only to find out that the school board were'nt quailified ion testing for this 1 So 3-5yrs wasted doing tests all over again ! Our youngest sons was bullied by a teacher in P1 !!! As she didn't really like dealing with young kids !!! Why be a teacher then !!

Our youngest sons' confidence was broken until he got a new teacher in P2. She was brilliant with him, and did everything she could to push him along and encourage him with his work !

Teachers have to go over and over the same things daily now, because of the infux of immigrants attending schools, who don't understand the basic english lanuage !! So class work sufferes for other pupils ! Then you have those who don't bother doing any type of school work ! And they disrupt the class !

Then you have head-teachers who it seems want one of those old-badges that McDonalds staff used to wear ! For customer service !! They will do everything they can to make surethe governments policy on immirants students meets the targets at the expense of the local children !!

If parents are not teaching their kids basic english at home ! Then what chance do the teachers have, when they have to keep teaching the basics every day for those who are not intrested !!

Now our twin sons are at shawlands academy. And things seem ok so-far ! A few things we've had to keep asking about ! But will see how the implement their dyslexia program later in the year. And if we feel its not working we will soon let them know !!

Posted by: mlconnelly 15th Sep 2011, 01:52pm

I cant make up my mind which way to vote on this 1. I attended both St Augustine's Primary and secondary schools in Milton and I left in 1976 with no qualifications but that never held me back as I got a job almost right away and was in employment constantly up until 3 years ago. At that time we were told that the Scottish Education system was 2nd to none in the world, and I believe at the time it was, so what happened? The powers that be, in their infinite wisdom, decided to change how things were done and in turn ruined it. What happened to "If its not broke, don't fix it". As I dont have children of my own I dont feel able to judge whether its the education system thats letting our kids down or somethings else. What I do know is that at age 7 I could read fairly well but at age 9 my god-daughter struggles to read a complete sentence without making mistakes and my 7 year old nephew can barely read at all. Mary

Posted by: LizzieLou 15th Sep 2011, 02:40pm

I was born and brought up in Glasgow and was always very proud of my schooling. I'm now a working pensioner and still proud. In my days a Scottish Education was deemed to be the best in the world and for many it still is, myself included. At least when we were young we learned the three "R's" nowadays so many of the youngsters can't read, write or do even simple arithmetic, technology is a wonderful thing but the basics must take priority. Our classes were often very overcrowded but all it did was give us determination to succeed, that determination has sadly gone for many of today's children. There is more funding than ever available for schooling but it doesn't always fall in the right places. An example of this is, teaching English as a first language to residents who should already be speaking the language of the country they live in. I rest my case Lizziellou.

Posted by: angel 15th Sep 2011, 03:18pm

I was one of the very fortunate children who attended school when
Scotland had a decent education system.
When I was in primary school , it was very important to me to learn how to read , even at that young age I realized that reading was knowledge
so when I would get home from school my father would spend time teaching me how to read the newspapers and next day our teacher would let me read whatever topic I had read , too the class .
Those teachers took an interest in their pupils , but I think in most cases
for today's teachers their profession is simply a job with a pay cheque .

Posted by: wee davy 15th Sep 2011, 03:59pm

I've just read this thread.

Have to say I'm not only shocked but dreadfully disappointed in the conclusions this Union report came to.

Tony said 'Education, Education, Education'. My, how those words should be resounding in his head.

Clearly, too much tinkering - too much theorising - about what is needed or not needed - has not done Glasgow, an OUNCE of good. Sadly, I have to say (and make an assuption) that those tasked with ensuring youngsters get a good start in life - have failed them miserably. sad.gif

Posted by: okiegal 15th Sep 2011, 04:21pm

I was born & raised in Glasgow & attended the best schools in the world. I attended Saint Aloysius in Renton St. then I went on to Garnethill Convent of Mercy & I believe my education was second to none. We had great respect for our teachers as they did expect this from us but they also respected us. I came to the USA in 1961 & my husband, kids & grandkids are Americans & wonderful people but I am still the same wee lassie fae "GLESGA" & I wouldn't trade my raising in "GLESGA" with anyone else in the world.

Posted by: Bob McDougall 15th Sep 2011, 04:38pm

@wee davy

I have to agree with you, especially having just read the story on the BBC website, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-14837587, that Glasgow is one of only three UK cities where more than 30% of homes have no-one working in them.

Saying that the Glasgow city fathers have failed miserably is an understatement!

Bob McDougall.

Posted by: *lizzielou* 15th Sep 2011, 04:39pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 15th Sep 2011, 04:45pm) *
I've just read this thread.

Have to say I'm not only shocked but dreadfully disappointed in the conclusions this Union report came to.

Tony said 'Education, Education, Education'. My, how those words should be resounding in his head.

Clearly, too much tinkering - too much theorising - about what is needed or not needed - has not done Glasgow, an OUNCE of good. Sadly, I have to say (and make an assuption) that those tasked with ensuring youngsters get a good start in life - have failed them miserably. sad.gif

Very much agree with you there.

Posted by: huffydoll 15th Sep 2011, 05:01pm

Well, I must say that we get what we vote for in this city. Year after year, generation after generation, and the talent our youth is wasted in schools that are quite obviously not fit for purpose.

Posted by: frame 15th Sep 2011, 05:21pm

Easter 1960 marked the end of my school days. I was all of 15 years old when I walked out of St Bernard's schoolyard gates for the last time. I was travelling light academically but that was down to me not the people employed to teach me, they did their best.
I'm ashamed to say that I had no interest in education or what the benefits of it might bring.
Walking through those gates was a kind of freedom and I believed then the only way for me was up.
Thankfully I discovered and very soon the error that I had made. The most important years of my life just tossed away through laziness, idleness and a complete disregard for learning. I started reading everything that came my way, anything I could get my hands on no matter what, I read it.
I took further education on the basics and moved on from there. I could actually feel energy flowing through me and at times couldn't believe how good I felt about myself. The years passed and I met and married, would you believe, a maths teacher.
We raised a family of three, a girl and two boys.
I know for certain that when they walked through their schoolyard gates for the last time, the only way was unquestionably up.

Posted by: lew dick 15th Sep 2011, 07:21pm

One point that han't been brought up. The authority of the teachers has been taken away. Back when I went to school, when the teacher told you to do homework, it was done without question. Today, it seems as if the pupils have too much say , in what goes on in the classroom. Teachers can't discipline those who don't apply themseves and the rest of the class gets held back waiting for them to catch up. I don't think it is the teachers at fault. I think it is the modern thinking of teenagers today.

Posted by: RobBob 15th Sep 2011, 09:56pm

Well I guess you could say my worst day was the one when the teacher told me I had to carry his bagpipes as he played his instrument and when I objected he told me to go down to the cafeteria and fill up on Haggis. Wow, talk about oatmeal for breakfast. Then there was the shortbread cookies, not that was a thing that truly identified my love of Scotland. Unfortunately, I have never been to school in Glasgow, nevermind ever been to Scotland but you can be assured that if I had gone to school in Glasgow whatever one I was in was the worst one in the city.....

Posted by: ceader bhoy 15th Sep 2011, 11:13pm

QUOTE (mlconnelly @ 15th Sep 2011, 03:38pm) *
I cant make up my mind which way to vote on this 1. I attended both St Augustine's Primary and secondary schools in Milton and I left in 1976 with no qualifications but that never held me back as I got a job almost right away and was in employment constantly up until 3 years ago. At that time we were told that the Scottish Education system was 2Nd to none in the world, and I believe at the time it was, so what happened? The powers that be, in their infinite wisdom, decided to change how things were done and in turn ruined it. What happened to "If its not broke, don't fix it". As I don't have children of my own I don't feel able to judge whether its the education system thats letting our kids down or somethings else. What I do know is that at age 7 I could read fairly well but at age 9 my god-daughter struggles to read a complete sentence without making mistakes and my 7 year old nephew can barely read at all. Mary

Mary they did not want us to learn as they were taught to keep us down, this is the same with the conservatives, i never learned a thing at school because the school teachers thought we were scum we got the belt for nothing as they were sadistic bastards from the old school they went to maybe fee paying schools don't know on my high horse at this moment love you cousin x

Posted by: lord anthony 15th Sep 2011, 11:18pm

Demand excelence!

Posted by: ceader bhoy 15th Sep 2011, 11:25pm

QUOTE (lord anthony @ 16th Sep 2011, 01:04am) *
Demand excelence!

you'r a little lord fouterloy ??

Posted by: DannyH 15th Sep 2011, 11:29pm

QUOTE (terry @ 15th Sep 2011, 03:54am) *
An interesting topic to be sure. i went to saint gerards in govan for 4 1/2 years leaving half way through the 5th year. sad to say i experienced utter boredom for most of those years. and my lot was not too unusual because most of those who had started off with me in year 1 were gone well before my departure. pity. as it turned out i picked up on my education when i came to america and eventually ended my career as a professor in my adopted country.
tr

I hate to sound sarcastic, but even though you are now a professor, you still wouldn't pass your English exam if you were attending a Glasgow school today. You have used 'i' instead of 'I' four times. You have started one sentence with the word 'sad'. It should be 'Sad'. You have also started another sentence with the word 'pity'. It should be 'Pity'. I was also taught in a Glasgow school that 'america' should be 'America'.

I am sure that you will agree that you have adopted the modern way of communication, i.e texting. This could be a contributing factor in why many school children are failing in English at schools.

Regards

DannyH

Posted by: ceader bhoy 15th Sep 2011, 11:46pm

QUOTE (DannyH @ 16th Sep 2011, 01:15am) *
I hate to sound sarcastic, but even though you are now a professor, you still wouldn't pass your English exam if you were attending a Glasgow school today. You have used 'i' instead of 'I' four times. You have started one sentence with the word 'sad'. It should be 'Sad'. You have also started another sentence with the word 'pity'. It should be 'Pity'. I was also taught in a Glasgow school that 'america' should be 'America'.

I am sure that you will agree that you have adopted the modern way of communication, i.e texting. This could be a contributing factor in why many school children are failing in English at schools.

Regards

DannyH

did you go to st columba's ??? know all

Posted by: DannyH 16th Sep 2011, 12:04am

I started primary school in Glasgow in 1936 when I was five. I attended Oakbank School in Garscube Road. We were all working class children. My memories of my time there are all happy ones.

I was evacuated to Canada in 1940 and attended a primary school there. In Canada at that time the starting age for school was six, so I had a head start and I was off to a flyer. Looking back now, I can say with confidence that the primary education I received in Oakbank School, was first class. Then, as now, if your parents took an interest in your education you had an advantage over those children whose parents had no interest.

The education I received in Canada was also of a high standard and I have many happy memories of my time there. However when I came home, I was placed in a junior secondary school because I was to old at thirteen to sit the 'qualy' exam. At this school I noticed a dramatic difference in the attitude of a small number of male teachers, compared to my primary schools teachers. Some of these seconday school teachers resorted to using the belt on pupils who were not grasping what was being taught. For some reason these teachers thought the slower pupils were being insolent and so deserved the belt. The fact was that these teachers were the failures. They were taking out their frustrations on some of the pupils because they themselves couldn't get a teaching post in a senior secondary school.

In spite of this, many of the boys who left school at 14 or 15 in those days, went on to do very well in life. I have met up with a few of them, and I am very proud of them.

Regarding modern schooling, I recently came across some exam papers for arithmetic and mathematics. I was shocked at how low a standard they were compared to the ones I took way back in the 1940's. I would like to see the Glasgow Guide asking employers what they think about modern education.

I also think in fairness to teachers nowadays, that they have much more to contend with than teachers of many years ago. It is a different world.

Posted by: DannyH 16th Sep 2011, 12:19am

QUOTE (ceader bhoy @ 16th Sep 2011, 01:32am) *
did you go to st columba's ??? know all

No, but you did.

Regards

Danny Harris

Posted by: mlconnelly 16th Sep 2011, 11:10am

My sister was a secondary school teacher (head of language department) but she took early retirement this year as she was completely disillusioned with the way the education system has change over the years. She became a teacher because she wanted to teach but was spending more and more time dealing with paper work, redtape and a higherarchy who didn't care or have a clue as long as they looked good on paper.
John, you obviously didn't have a great experience at school and your right that teachers then probably concentrated on the brighter kids to the detriment of the others but now that seems to have swung in the opposite direction and the brighter kids are being held back. When I was at St Augustines our classes were graded according to ability but again the powers that be decided that this wasn't fair to the pupils in the lower classes as they were being made to feel inferior. At the time I agrred but not so sure now. Mary

Posted by: norrie123 16th Sep 2011, 11:27am

I started school 1950 Elmvale school Springburn, then to Miltonbank Milton and finally a junior secondary school Colston, I can say I disliked school never took time off unless unwell
Of course even then we had bullies but you had to stand up to them
I dont feel the school failed me.
I was trained for trades, woodwork ,metal work, techie drawing, guess thats why I went into engineering
All in all, guess school set me up
Bye for now, norrie

Posted by: patsy 113 montrose st 16th Sep 2011, 11:42am

I attended school in Townhead St. Mungo`s Infants on to Glebe St. Primary the St. Roch`s Royston Rd.all between 1944thru.to55 I broke my heart the day i left,also i had the best teachers that my
Parents could ask to educate their children and they had no worries of our safety and health.
When i left school i had no Certs it made no difference i got into Broad St.pre school for Plumbing&
and Pipe Fitting and the rest is history 72 yrs. no regrets.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 16th Sep 2011, 11:58am





http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/271583

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2038030/Bring-cane-say-half-parents-Cameron-pledges-restore-order-schools-following-riots.html

This new broom sweeps clean. biggrin.gif

QUOTE
In the first three days of this term alone, he sent home 151 pupils for wearing trainers with Velcro, the wrong trousers, an unsuitable school bag and, in one case, a gold hairband.

Scores more were sent to after-school detention for failing to bring a pencil, paper, rubber and ruler with them to class, while dozens were put in an isolation centre for disrupting lessons.

Just 48 hours after the iron rules were introduced, teachers reported they had doubled the amount of teaching time in lessons, as they no longer had to perform ‘crowd control’.

While a handful of parents have attacked Dr Fox’s draconian measures, branding them ‘ridiculous’, there has been a groundswell of support from many grateful parents who are desperate for their children to learn in school.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2037885/The-wrong-trousers-No-ruler-Get-class-Iron-fisted-headteacher-causes-outrage-bars-150-pupils-lessons-breaking-minor-rules.html#ixzz1Y7AkYaLi

Is this perhaps the answer, or at least a part of the answer?
I was never an unruly kid in school although I was quite often belted for being a bit of a chatterbox ... Who? Me, miss? rolleyes.gif but I do know that without the support of the strap our teachers might have had little or no control over classes. Getting the belt for forgetting to return homework was an accepted punishment; by both pupils and parents, although being strapped for making a mistake in calculation or spelling might have seemed unjust but it certainly was an aid in paying attention ... and that is where I think things might have started to go wrong in schools.
When I read recently of some of the subject courses taken by school children which produced multi GCES and girls opting for hairdressing and not being allowed to use scissors during this course because of 'elf 'n safety regulations, I wondered which planet I was on ... remember all those wee scissors we used to cut paper with in infant school?

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 16th Sep 2011, 12:25pm

Memory has just been refreshed. tongue.gif

From my Man Management course in the RAF ...

QUOTE
The 3 rules of discipline are:-

1. Keep rules to a minimum
2. Never make a rule that you cannot enforce
3. The rules you do make you enforce with a rod of iron.
These rules work for commanding men, training dogs and bringing up kids.


biggrin.gif

Posted by: Dave Grieve 16th Sep 2011, 01:11pm

QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 16th Sep 2011, 02:11pm) *
Memory has just been refreshed. tongue.gif

From my Man Management course in the RAF ... biggrin.gif

Dont you know Tomi that they would scream blue murder if those rules where imposed on them not to mention its an infringement of their shuman rites.

Could blue murder be construed as a sectarian crime? rolleyes.gif

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 16th Sep 2011, 02:12pm

QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 16th Sep 2011, 01:57pm) *
Could blue murder be construed as a sectarian crime? rolleyes.gif

laugh.gif I'll have to check that out with ma sister laugh.gif

Posted by: Dylan 16th Sep 2011, 03:12pm

John aged 7 hits James age 7 in the playground.

Teacher hits James to teach him that hitting John was bad.

John now wonders why it was ok for Teacher to hit him, if it was wrong for him to hit James.

Teacher tells him that it is ok to hit someone who hits someone.

John is confused.!

Posted by: *Catherine* 16th Sep 2011, 04:15pm

I went to one of the first comprehensive schools in the UK in the 1950's, ie Crookston Castle, which sadly no longer exists. We had some of the best teachers anywhere and although I was miffed at not going to Shawlands Academy like my older brother, looking back I don't think it did me any harm.

Posted by: wee davy 16th Sep 2011, 06:36pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 16th Sep 2011, 03:58pm) *
John aged 7 hits James age 7 in the playground.
Teacher hits James to teach him that hitting John was bad.
John now wonders why it was ok for Teacher to hit him, if it was wrong for him to hit James.

Teacher tells him that it is ok to hit someone who hits someone.

John is confused.!

2011

John aged 7 kicks James age 7 in the head, as a Teacher stands by, powerless.

James finishes up with brain damage.

John is sent for therapy.

Who's confused now?

Posted by: bilbo.s 16th Sep 2011, 06:58pm

Well said, wee man ! smile.gif

Posted by: lord anthony 16th Sep 2011, 08:21pm

QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 16th Sep 2011, 08:11am) *
Memory has just been refreshed. tongue.gif

From my Man Management course in the RAF ...



biggrin.gif

This is why women have ALL the power. Men are always trying to wrestle or bully each other with rules while women control and manipulate them. Look at the matriarchy of Roman empire, lasted centuries.

If things are getting better it's because we're slowly figuring out how to work together, not by men "enforcing" bloody rules.
My formative years were miserable because of rules.

Posted by: Dylan 16th Sep 2011, 08:46pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 16th Sep 2011, 07:22pm) *
2011

John aged 7 kicks James age 7 in the head, as a Teacher stands by, powerless.

James finishes up with brain damage.

John is sent for therapy.

Who's confused now?

John is, he did not kick James on the head.

You made that up in the opinion it would enhance your argument for violence towards children.

It did not.

Can you think of no alternative to violence on children ?

Do you have children ? Do you hit them and would you be happy if someone else had the right to hit them if they alone thought fit ?

John then went to Janice who suggested he sit on a mat.

John sat on the mat.

I know this is true because I read all the " John and Janet " books..

Posted by: glasgow lass 16th Sep 2011, 10:53pm

See John run
See Janet run faster tongue.gif
Its never OK to strike a child or scream at a child for that matter.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 16th Sep 2011, 11:04pm

QUOTE (lord anthony @ 16th Sep 2011, 09:07pm) *
... not by men "enforcing" bloody rules.
My formative years were miserable because of rules.

If we didn't like the rules we could opt out of the forces; give the Queen her shilling back. wink.gif
In todays society, if they don't like the rules they torch the city.
My formative years were informative; including how to live with, or without, rules set by parents, church and school.
By the time I accepted the Queen's shilling I was a wee expert in bending rules. tongue.gif

nil illegitimus carborundum. biggrin.gif

Posted by: eidas 16th Sep 2011, 11:11pm

QUOTE (Norman G @ 15th Sep 2011, 06:38pm) *
Another feather in the cap of the Labour administration.
But never mind, just vote them in again.

Inappropriate comment!

Posted by: tamhickey 17th Sep 2011, 04:09am

I was brought up and educated in what is now regarded as the worst performing area of educational attainment in the U.K.
It seems almost inconceivable that educational standards have been allowed to fall as far as they have. When I was a child, my parents taught me to read prior to going to school, and my dad was in the TGWU who laid on education classes which helped with this. This meant I had a head start compared to some others when I went to St. Marthas, though not all; it seemed that some other parents had the same idea and we were asked to help the other children improve. This was a great way to bond young people together and forge friendships. The same applied where maths was a difficulty and had us thinking about and discussing the lessons afterwards.
This was a program of learning where no child was deemed more worthy than another and improvements, however slight were lauded. This gave confidence and allowed a lot of children a breathing space.
I went on to All Saints secondary and in first year, we were taught the Greek Classics, though quite why we were only taught in first year is a mystery. We also had drama classes and as part of our English classes we would occasionally be allowed to watch these new fangled videos which were pertinent to our understanding. Little did I know that in later years I would go on to help make and produce films.
I left school with three O grades, bitterly disappointed that it wasn't the five I had hoped for.
Years later, I went back to college and got a few Highers, realising that I was by now a much wiser person who had experienced so much more of life and read so much more during the intervening years and loved every second of it, including the homework!
It's always good to challenge yourself; I do hope that the teachers in Glasgow are up to the coming challenge.
Sadly though, I doubt if are able to. They don't have the finances we did in the 70's, they are given much more beaureacracy and form filling, they aren't funded to teach the Greek classics anymore, PE as a discipline seems to be on the decline, the students see no future for them as more and more people lose their jobs and the jobs in this area are miniscule.
It's my view that there ought to be more vocational qualifications available so that everybody, of whatever skills is able to use them.

Posted by: bilbo.s 17th Sep 2011, 07:54am

QUOTE (eidas @ 17th Sep 2011, 12:57am) *
Inappropriate comment!

Inappropriate comment !!

Posted by: Dave Grieve 17th Sep 2011, 08:06am

John must be really thick if he doesn't realise he is being punished for doing something he is not suposed to do.
First thing anybody learns at school is to follow the rules, big No No when I was at school
NO FIGHTING!!! or you will suffer the consequence.

Perhaps in todays namby pamby society kids are encouraged to be lawyers instead of law abiding citizens who learn to live with one another.

Posted by: GG 17th Sep 2011, 09:42am

QUOTE (eidas @ 16th Sep 2011, 11:57pm) *
Inappropriate comment!

Hi eidas, and welcome to the boards.

Could you please explain why the comment regarding the poor levels of qualifications in Glasgow as being "another feather in the cap of the Labour administration" is inappropriate? I would remind you that the Labour admistration has overseen a truly shocking decline in standards in qualifications in Glasgow schools over the last 40 years. In addition, and contrary to what the education spokesperson for Glasgow City Council tells us, the attainment gap between Glasgow and neighbouring council areas is actually rising, i.e. inequality in education is worsening... and still we see no solutions offered by councillors of the dominant Labour administration.

That said, I was somewhat encouraged to read the following comments by Glasgow North East Labour MP, Willie Bain, who shows a welcome grasp of both the complexity and the importance of the issue. Of course, all we need now is action... not just impassioned words, no matter how wise!

QUOTE
The recent University and College Union analysis of the number of adults without any educational qualifications across Britain has provoked genuine concern and debate about inequality and social mobility in our country. Over 12% of Scots lack any formal qualifications, but in seats such as Glasgow North East with high levels of inter-generational poverty and unemployment, some 35% of adults are without any qualifications at all. Local schoolchildren in Dennistoun and Robroyston recently lobbied me to ensure that their classmates in Africa have the right to an empowering education. The tragedy is that through a combination of social breakdown, lack of work, the absence of aspiration among the young, and expensive childcare, it has almost become acceptable to consider such inequality as inevitable in Glasgow.

In an economy where the shift from unskilled and semi-skilled labour to knowledge-based and high skill jobs is continuing apace, ending this situation is vital if we are to avoid not just a lost generation of young people without the skills or chance for work as in the 1980s and 1990s, but entire communities becoming dislocated from society, and locked into a downwards spiral of despair, poverty, ill-health, and apathy. ...

We must be creative in our thinking on skills and the education system. There are too few incentives for people to study or improve their skills after their mid-twenties, not only to improve their job prospects or to enhance their earning power, but to improve their wellbeing and quality of life. In north and east Glasgow, schoolteachers tell me the biggest enemy in pupil attainment is apathy in the home and a lack of aspiration. There are too few role models to draw upon in local communities, and links between schools, colleges and universities must improve. We must break down the barriers which insulate the talented in poor communities from taking life-changing opportunities. As a university lecturer, I found one of the best ways to show pupils that they were talented enough to go to University was to visit schools and offer mini-classes. Schools in poorer communities need the most passionate, cleverest and committed people to teach in them. The job of helping turn around the prospects of disempowered young people through education must count for more than a trader involved in commodity speculation. We need our best graduates for this task, and we need to reward them accordingly, following initiatives elsewhere such as Teach First. We need bolder leadership in our schools to refuse to tolerate a culture of underachievement and apathy towards children's education, through introducing education contracts between schools, pupils, and their parents.

A transformation in education, skills, and the way we look at work and welfare are required to tackle these inequalities. The education and social mobility conference I am hosting at North Glasgow College on August 26th will be the start of that process. It may take a generation, but politicians and civic society must begin the task now to save thousands of Glaswegians from a future unworthy of their great talents and abilities.

Full article on Labour List:
http://www.labourlist.org/multiple-deprivation-in-glasgow-north-east

GG.

Posted by: GG 17th Sep 2011, 10:04am

Regarding Mr Bain's concern:

QUOTE
... Local schoolchildren in Dennistoun and Robroyston recently lobbied me to ensure that their classmates in Africa have the right to an empowering education. The tragedy is that through a combination of social breakdown, lack of work, the absence of aspiration among the young, and expensive childcare, it has almost become acceptable to consider such inequality as inevitable in Glasgow. ...

I think he would find that the local schoolchildren who lobbied him did so as a direct result of the 'lobbying' of their teachers, who themselves were 'lobbied' by education officials who appear to concentrate way too much on what is happening in Africa, and not enough on what is happening in the schools to which they have a civic and professional responsibility... not to mention a moral one!

QUOTE
Improving education in Malawi
Friday 09 September 2011

The council announces an exciting new partnership to improve learning and teaching in Malawi.

Malawi Leaders of Learning (MLOL) is a unique opportunity set-up by Glasgow City Council and a new Scottish partnership being forged between the council’s education services and Malawi’s South West Division.

A new website for the project has just been launched with details of what is planned for this long-term project.

MLOL is a two-way charity and development scheme aimed at sharing resources and expertise between the two countries and ultimately improve the quality of learning and teaching in a challenging environment.

The council is working closing with two well-known charities on this exciting project, Link Community Development and Mary’s Meals, both already committed to changing the life chances of Malawi’s children. ...

http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/en/News/Malawi+leaders+of+learning.htm

GG.

Posted by: GG 17th Sep 2011, 10:40am

SCHOOLS TOLD TO BRING BACK CANING?

I think it's a valid point to raise, after all the decline in education standards did seem to time nicely with the removal of corporal punishment in schools. However, it also coincided with the brutal rise of neo-liberal policies which subverted the needs of community to the avarice of the 'free market' system.

While not wanting to go off-topic to a http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=15570 we have already discussed at great length, my own personal opinion regarding whether we should bring back corporal punishment to 21st Century schools is no. Here's my reasoning:

The goal of schools today is completely different to what it was when the belt was effective. In the past, schools – especially working-class ones – were designed to produce obedient workers for mundane, repetitive manual jobs. Thinking for yourself was largely not required, whereas discipline was very important, as was knowing 'your place' in the bigger scheme of things. Thus, belting kids was in fact beneficial to producing effective workers for the industrial economy: kids who, as future workers, would do what they were told, unquestioningly, and who knew the consequences of not paying attention to the task given to them. Today, the situation is vastly different. Our economy needs innovative, creative and adaptable workers for knowledge industries. Thinking for yourself is a fundamental prerequisite for developing these attributes, as is individuality, and even – to an extent – challenging convention and authority (teachers don't always know best). Therefore, I think re-introducing the belt would be counter-productive to the goal of modern schools.

That said – and here's the rub for us all to think about – if the goal of our schools in Glasgow is merely to produce children who are feeders of the middle-class poverty industry, then perhaps the Daily Express/Mail is right... and maybe we should all just shut up, do what we are told and trust that our 'betters' know better than us!

GG.

Posted by: Dave Grieve 17th Sep 2011, 12:59pm

Hi GG it’s all very well saying that education needs have changed over the last forty years and that corporal punishment is not the answer.
It’s probably true that we need better educated school leavers than before and for some reason Britain as a whole seems to be falling down on this critical part of the countries development.

What I know of kids through observation of my own, and other kids is it doesn’t matter what age they are if they can take a chance and get away with it, they will.
If schools are not allowed to use corporal punishment what alternative do you have for them?

In the past forty years the liberal do-gooders and PC brigade have done immense damage to British society by giving people (school kids) who are not mature enough yet to make reasoned decisions on a daily basis carte blange to cause havoc in classes with out fear of any type of retribution.

When I was going to school at St Rochs the belt was dished out willy-nilly every day sometimes it seemed for no good reason and sometimes sadistically.
But it kept every one on their toes and it seems as if my generation was better educated than the present one.
What’s the difference, between then and now?
The pupils today have more advantages than my generation.
They don’t go to bed hungry. My generation did.
They all seem to be well dressed. My generation went to school with thin jerseys and holes in the soles of their shoes.
Transport to and from schools doesn’t seem to be a problem with the number of cars on the road. We walked everywhere.
So with all the modern advantages why have standards dropped??

The old style belt may not have been the answer but the alternative of taking away the fear of punishment has failed, so until another method of keeping kids focused on their lessons can be thought up I say go back to it.
This could be coupled with a supervised approach, meaning the teacher cant just hand out punishment in the class like before, I have seen teachers overreact when losing their temper.
The pupil could go to some sort of area where the school nurse is present and punishment recorded, that way the transgressors as well as the teacher administering punishment could be kept track of.


Posted by: mlconnelly 17th Sep 2011, 05:12pm

The belt may or may not be the answer but it should never have been banned until something effective was put in place to replace it. Part of the problem in schools these day is that no one is taught disipline or respect, yet the youth of today demand respect as if its a god given right and not something that has to be earned. Mary

Posted by: Heather 17th Sep 2011, 05:57pm

Quite right Mary.

I am horrified when I hear the way the young of today speak to Teachers. In my day we would not have dared and if we had been cheeky to Teachers and our parents found out, they have given us a clip on the ear.

I rarely ever got the belt at School, it was mostly lines. We even got them for not wearing our School Uniform.
I defied a Teacher once and was sent to the Head and got the belt even though the Teacher was in the wrong.

Posted by: glasgow lass 17th Sep 2011, 08:00pm

QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 17th Sep 2011, 01:45pm) *
Hi GG it’s all very well saying that education needs have changed over the last forty years and that corporal punishment is not the answer.
It’s probably true that we need better educated school leavers than before and for some reason Britain as a whole seems to be falling down on this critical part of the countries development. ...

Interesting prospective Dave but what about giving the kids encouragement instead belting them with a strap.There is no such thing as a happy child who has to study under the threat of being hit if they do not understand what is going on in the class room.

Posted by: murphy 18th Sep 2011, 05:33am

This has been an amazing thread. Here in the States I have noticed if children do not put in any effort they are pretty much ignored, that is why parents have to regularly check on their childrens grades and citizenship. I remember the belt in school it was demeaning and abuse, I never got it for not doing work but I talked a lot and was always belted for my mouth flapping. This punishment did not work and I still flap my mouth off when I think it is neccessary. We need to support the teachers, do you remember going home and telling your Mother the teacher was mean to you for whatever reason, then we would be punished by our Mother who always took the teacher's side. I think the best form of disipline would be consequences I use this with my grandkids, and it sure works, that and consistency, and the children knowing what their consequence will be if they do not follow through and follow rules.

Posted by: ashfield 18th Sep 2011, 08:02am

I am not sure why the issue of the belt (or any other form of corporal punishment) is being discussed in this thread. The outcome of the study is about how Glasgow schools appear to be the worst in Britain. If you check you will find that the belt is banned across the whole of the Country, but some schools still seem to encourage children to perform well.

For what it's worth, my experience of the belt is that good teachers never (or rarely) had to use it.

I posted these links over a month ago in the "Glasgow schools falling further behind" thread, I think the second one offers some other possibilities about the cause of the problem.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/education/the-great-education-divide-1.1113401?62319

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/31/glasgow-edinburgh-poverty-chasm

Posted by: eidas 18th Sep 2011, 09:04am

QUOTE (GG @ 17th Sep 2011, 08:28pm) *
Hi eidas, and welcome to the boards.

Could you please explain why the comment regarding the poor levels of qualifications in Glasgow as being "another feather in the cap of the Labour administration" is inappropriate? I would remind you that the Labour admistration has overseen a truly shocking decline in standards in qualifications in Glasgow schools over the last 40 years. In addition, and contrary to what the education spokesperson for Glasgow City Council tells us, the attainment gap between Glasgow and neighbouring council areas is actually rising, i.e. inequality in education is worsening... and still we see no solutions offered by councillors of the dominant Labour administration.

That said, I was somewhat encouraged to read the following comments by Glasgow North East Labour MP, Willie Bain, who shows a welcome grasp of both the complexity and the importance of the issue. Of course, all we need now is action... not just impassioned words, no matter how wise!


Full article on Labour List:
http://www.labourlist.org/multiple-deprivation-in-glasgow-north-east

GG.

Inappropriate comment in this forum. Regardless of which political party has been in power for whatever number of years, in my opinion, would have made no difference to the situation. As I see it, discipline is the answer and this goes back a few generations, if parents and teachers did not experience discipline, how can they pass it on to their children and students? Perhaps a campaign across all forms of media with a slogan such as 'Please and Thank You' would be a good place to start.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 18th Sep 2011, 10:42am

QUOTE (eidas @ 18th Sep 2011, 09:50am) *
... Regardless of which political party has been in power for whatever number of years, in my opinion, would have made no difference to the situation. As I see it, discipline is the answer and this goes back a few generations ...

Surely if a Labour administration has, over several generations, removed the power from schools to administer disipline to pupils, then that Labour adminidstration must carry the can for the poor educational standards seen in schools all these generations later?
The old adage, spare the rod... springs to mind.

Posted by: benny 18th Sep 2011, 11:58am

Reintroducing the belt would do no good whatsoever. Hiv any of you actually looked at the size of some "weans" nooadays? Teachers hiv got merr tae fear frae gettin a duffin up frae the pupils than vice versa.

Posted by: bilbo.s 18th Sep 2011, 12:07pm

Kalashnikovs it is then ! unsure.gif

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 18th Sep 2011, 02:08pm

QUOTE (benny @ 18th Sep 2011, 12:44pm) *
... Hiv any of you actually looked at the size of some "weans" nooadays? Teachers hiv got merr tae fear frae gettin a duffin up frae the pupils than vice versa.

Nooadays? laugh.gif
I (neary 20 yrs old then) went up to Dollar wi' a mate of mine ... on the night the news of JFK's assasination came over ma tranny on the bus.
The Dollar schoolboys in short trousers who were givin' us outsiders from Glasgow a bit of hassle gave me the impression we were being faced by The All Blacks in blazers. laugh.gif

Posted by: glasgow lass 18th Sep 2011, 03:44pm

a duffin !,,, laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: ashfield 18th Sep 2011, 04:29pm

Still going on about the belt rolleyes.gif

Again, the belt is banned across the country so why are the results elsewhere still high?

I get the feeling that everybody is looking for simple solutions to what is a complex problem.

Posted by: glasgow lass 18th Sep 2011, 04:52pm

If I ruled the world every teacher would be given an assistant to help pick up the slack, slow learners are in every class and can really hold others back.I do not believe that kids have no interest in their studies so when a child is falling through the cracks a teacher should look much closer at the problem. I know that having an assistant in a class is really beneficial to teacher and students as I have seen it work wonders for the kids who could be left behind regardin grades.

Posted by: wee davy 18th Sep 2011, 05:22pm

Good God, Lass,... I do hope your not suggesting people actually put their hands in their pockets and invest in children's futures?
You revolutionary, you laugh.gif

Posted by: glasgow lass 18th Sep 2011, 05:35pm

It doesn't have to cost a penny davy, we can all give to others on a volunteer basis. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 18th Sep 2011, 05:46pm

My education in Glasgow started with a succession of happy wee schools, starting with St Margaret's in Kinning Park, through to my 'qualy' class in a wee school in Pollok, taught by a series of lovely women, the flowers of Scottish spinsterhood (teachers all seemed to be spinsters in those days) dedicated to their vocation, who are in my affections forever. Miss Mossop, Miss Summers, Miss McGuinness, Miss Broderick, Miss Kennedy, Miss Livingston, Miss Duffy (I loved her best), and Miss Lynn. For all she was tall, and could seem forbidding, Miss Lynn was as dedicated and good a teacher as you could wish for, and thinking of her takes me back fifty whole years to her class, Primary VII-2, where we were taught the old Scottish songs of love and patriotic fervour, she sitting at the classroom piano (aye, the days when every classroom had a piano and music lessons), pounding out the opening bars of the measured slow march, and the glorious sound of forty-four bairns giein' it laldy.

#Scots wha hae wi' Wallace bled
#Scots wham Bruce hath aften led
#Welcome tae your gory bed
#Or tae victor-ee!

As verse after verse came, and the slow march crescendo became louder and louder at the piano, those of us stirred most with the sound would begin to pound our hammer fists on the desk like anvil blows, our feet shod in untied shoes tramping out the beat of the march on the floor beneath us.

#Noo's the day and noo's the hour!
#See the front o' battle lour!
#See approach Proud Edward's pow'r
#Chains and slaveree!

By the time we had reached

#Wha for Scotland's King and Law
#Freedom's sword will strongly draw
#Freeman stand or freeman fa'
#Let him follow me!

we were an army on the march, our banners fluttering high in the breeze as we marched on Bannockburn, claymores drawn and the slogan in our throats -

#Lay the proud usurpers low!
#Tyrants fall in ev'ry foe!
#Liberty's in ev'ry blow!
#Let us do, or dee!

Then Miss Lynn, tall, stern, lank, and foreboding, would turn to the class, and I swear to God, that forbidding face had the merest hint of a trace of a shadow of a smile twinkle across it.

Miss Lynn is long gone, and so too is that wee school, but across the decades, I hear it yet, and when I do, the bristles rise on the nape of my neck, the heart beats faster, and the pulse races at the remembered sounds and the massed choral fervour of Primary VII-2. Magnificent stuff. I wouldn't trade it for a sporranful of Jerusalems.

Posted by: Dylan 18th Sep 2011, 06:14pm

QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 17th Sep 2011, 08:52am) *
John must be really thick if he doesn't realise he is being punished for doing something he is not suposed to do.
First thing anybody learns at school is to follow the rules, big No No when I was at school
NO FIGHTING!!! or you will suffer the consequence.

Perhaps in todays namby pamby society kids are encouraged to be lawyers instead of law abiding citizens who learn to live with one another.

John is not thick.

He is a child

He is only 7.

If you want to hit children I can not stop you, unless I was present.

However do not hit john. !!


As a matter if interest at what age do we stop hitting School Pupils boys / girls

Age 16 ? By that age a girl could be a wife. !

Does that change things ?

Posted by: Heather 18th Sep 2011, 07:10pm

Lass, I remember when in Primary School those of us who finished our sums first, were told to sit with the one's who were bit slower and help them.

The same thing happened at home. Our mum would tell the older one's to help the younger one's with their homework.

Posted by: glasgow lass 18th Sep 2011, 07:39pm

Heather I remember that and out here its called the buddy system, I think its a big help tho I still feel that an extra adult in class rooms would be a big plus. With so much unemployment in Glasgow maybe helping out in schools should become mandatory or else no benefits.

Posted by: Heather 18th Sep 2011, 07:48pm

Lass, any who did volunteer to help in Schools would have to be vetted first.
They would also have to be tested to see if they were capable of of helping out with the three Rs. Reading, writing & arithmetic.

Posted by: glasgow lass 18th Sep 2011, 09:43pm

Its the same here Heather back ground checks are done on everyone who works with children, but in hospitals for some reason there is no security checks done on volunteers. For hospital work its more of a medical ckeck e.g Tb testing with x-ray and a few booster shots paid for by the volunteer.

Posted by: glasgow lass 18th Sep 2011, 09:45pm

Forgot to mention Heather that there is no academic check done on school volunteers.

Posted by: glasgow lass 18th Sep 2011, 11:06pm

Heather I also meant to say that in one of the major hospitals we have seven hundred volunteers. biggrin.gif

Posted by: GG 18th Sep 2011, 11:19pm

QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 18th Sep 2011, 06:32pm) *
My education in Glasgow started with a succession of happy wee schools, starting with St Margaret's in Kinning Park ...

Thanks Alex, a wonderful reminiscence, and conveyed so evocatively; I can almost hear the rythmic thud of worn leather on the wooden floors! smile.gif

GG.

Posted by: angel 18th Sep 2011, 11:53pm

QUOTE
Then Miss Lynn, tall, stern, lank, and foreboding, would turn to the class, and I swear to God, that forbidding face had the merest hint of a trace of a shadow of a smile twinkle across it.

Miss Lynn is long gone, and so too is that wee school, but across the decades, I hear it yet, and when I do, the bristles rise on the nape of my neck, the heart beats faster, and the pulse races at the remembered sounds and the massed choral fervour of Primary VII-2. Magnificent stuff. I wouldn't trade it for a sporranful of Jerusalems.

I'm now thinking MacPhee that , that was part of the brainwashing we all went through . However I loved every moment of my schooldays , got the strap once , but never again . there are rules , regulations and laws to be obeyed by everyone in order that our society can function reasonably well and this should begin in the homes and in our schools . ...how to fix it , ...I don't know , but children must be taught that they have to pay for their actions . and so far nothing seems to be working.

Posted by: tamhickey 19th Sep 2011, 04:45am

This is not an issue about discipline. The issue at hand is one of educational attainment or the lack of it in comparison to the rest of the country. If this drops then questions need to be asked of the Council and education department. That's the pertinent issue at hand.

Posted by: GG 19th Sep 2011, 07:20am

I think you are correct, Tam. The plain and simple fact is that Glasgow's schools are not performing to an acceptable standard; they are not, to use the politician's jargon, fit-for-purpose. As an indicator of this, take the figures from last year, http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/education/school-league-tables-2010-1.1074728, which show that there was not a single Glasgow council school in Scotland's top 50 best performing schools. In the same year, the city had ten of its schools in the bottom 27 performing schools.

Lack of an adequate education standard is the single biggest driver of sustained poverty and deprivation in the city, yet it is generally perceived to be acceptable by those with the power to facilitate change.

GG.

Posted by: GG 19th Sep 2011, 07:30am

QUOTE (eidas @ 18th Sep 2011, 09:50am) *
Inappropriate comment in this forum. Regardless of which political party has been in power for whatever number of years, in my opinion, would have made no difference to the situation. As I see it, discipline is the answer and this goes back a few generations, if parents and teachers did not experience discipline, how can they pass it on to their children and students? Perhaps a campaign across all forms of media with a slogan such as 'Please and Thank You' would be a good place to start.

Thanks your reply, eidas. As we have not had an alternative political party to Labour running Glasgow's schools, you could be right in saying that any other party may not have performed better in addressing the apparently intractable educational problems in the city.

GG.

Posted by: Dave Grieve 19th Sep 2011, 08:03am

QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 18th Sep 2011, 07:32pm) *
My education in Glasgow started with a succession of happy wee schools ...

Alex
I get the impression you where transported back 50 years.

Posted by: Dave Grieve 19th Sep 2011, 08:20am

QUOTE (Dylan @ 18th Sep 2011, 08:00pm) *
John is not thick.

He is a child

He is only 7.

If you want to hit children I can not stop you, unless I was present.

However do not hit john. !!


As a matter if interest at what age do we stop hitting School Pupils boys / girls

Age 16 ? By that age a girl could be a wife. !

Does that change things ?

Dont know about you Dylan, but on my seventh birthday I had already been at school for more than two years already, and certainly knew the rules.
Stop making excuses, thats whats wrong with the kids today, to many well meaning adults trying to protect them from making mistakes and not allowing them to stand on their own two feet and face up to their own responcibilities.

Posted by: Dylan 19th Sep 2011, 08:55am

As TH said this is not an issue about discipline but some take any issue they can to introduce Corporal Punishment, just as they do about Capital Punishment .

I am not making excuses, the same opinions on this matter are aired every time and no one changes their opinion.

Being hit at 5 years of age does not enhance your argument Dave, if anything it makes it worse.

As far as I am concerned it is simple.

I think it is immoral to hit a child.

I never hit mine and my children have never hit theirs.

They learned by example from me !.

I had alternatives to violence which worked..

As a matter of interest , do you think it would be acceptable for a male teacher to hit a 16 year old girl or do we only hit the wee ones ????

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 19th Sep 2011, 09:27am

QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 19th Sep 2011, 09:49am) *
I get the impression you where transported back 50 years.

I was indeed. I'm not best placed to comment on how Glasgow schools perform today, but I'm fairly confident that at one time, they gave little away to the best of other towns and cities. My memories of my schooldays are good, and it would be a shame if pupils of today were not able to look back on their schooldays as times of excellence in learning to be proud of.

Posted by: Dave Grieve 19th Sep 2011, 10:42am

Hy Dylan
Lets get one thing straight before we go any further I am not advocating hitting kids for the sake of violence being the only answer to school disipline.

However the "lets treat kids as mini adults and if we talk to them like adults they will respond in an adult like manner" has been an abysmal FAILURE!!!

If that method had been a success this topic would not now be being discussed.
Twice now you refer to punishing a 16 year old girl as if that makes her royal game or something.
If any 16 year old, boy or girl has not learned their lessons in life or is not mature enough to understand what is required from them. Then they take whats coming to them.

I would start off by from the first day at school promote a culture of manners and highlight the need for achievement in school, with the knowledge that if behavioural and academic standards expected were not achieved disipline would be enforced.

How would you improve the failings in Glasgow schools, never mind anywhere else?

Posted by: mlconnelly 19th Sep 2011, 10:45am

Disipline, or lack there of, is very much part of the problem but not the whole problem. Dylan you've never hit your kids and thats great but I'm sure you taught them boundrys and thats another form of disipline. It dosen't have to involve physical punishment and I dont understand why so many people jump to the conclusion that it does. The do good brigade that took away the rights of both parents and teachers to disipline kids have not done this country any favours. There are some kids who just run riot, doing what ever they like knowing that there is very little that can be done to stop them, even the police are limited as to how they deal with them. Kids today demand what they want and, for the most part, get it, which means they value nothing and have no respect for anything or anyone.
In fairness, the majority of kids in school are probably well behaved but its the ones in the minority who cause disruptions in classes who are the problem. If they don't want to learn, why should they be allowed to hold other kids back. As for non-English speaking kids, surely they should be in different classes until their English us up to standard. Mary

[GG edit: Hi Mary, I changed "Alex" to "Dylan", as I'm sure you meant the latter.]

Posted by: Dylan 19th Sep 2011, 11:14am

Hi Dave,

Well at least you appear to accept that hitting kids is violence.

One either believes that violence is acceptable or not.

I believe not.

Regarding a 16 year old girl being hit by a man.

Your defence of this could be used by her husband.

I assume you would think this as unacceptable but condone a teacher hitting her. ?

As I previously said neither of us will change our opinions .

There is another way. I managed to raise two well adjusted children without resorting to violence.!

If I can do it so can trained teachers.

Enjoying the debate .

Just for the record John, James and Janet are fictional !!

Posted by: Dave Grieve 19th Sep 2011, 12:17pm

I think I had figured out John, James and Janet.
However I was asking a serious question when I asked you what you would do to improve Glasgow schools.

Through my job I have been into some of the top private schools in this country and the first thing that strikes you is how well mannered the pupils are, not one and I mean not one will walk past you without a greeting of either Good morning Sir or Good afternoon Sir.
Like the UK corporal punishment has been abolished here but these kids realise the benefit of a good education to them.

In the Goverment schools you may not get the greeting from every pupil but again the majority of pupils and parents ensure that their kids learn as failure results in being kept back for a further year.

In both types of school disipline within the school is there for everybody to see.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 19th Sep 2011, 12:29pm

I think we may be gettin' a wee bit carried away with the interpretation of discipline as violence. The only time where I was violently punished was on the occasion where my father battered and booted me (12/13 years old?) in front of two policemen for trying to burn down the bettin' shop where he worked ... and me feeling martyred later 'cos I was only carryin' out God's Work. laugh.gif
Since then I've only ever put match to Benson & Hedges and BBQs ... honest. cool.gif
But although some teachers could issue out sometimes severe or even unjust punishments I can never recall the feeling of being treated with violence in school by teachers ... and our school was once compared to a black-board jungle by the Bullettin Newspaper back then - even when the adjacent building to us was the local police station.
So lets not have slaps oan the lug fae wir grannies as a form of disipline and gettin' the belt at school being exaggerated as violence.
Admittedly some teachers (and grannies) could get carried away but in all honesty they would have had little or no control over classes of between 20 and 40 children between the ages of 12 and 15 back then without the threat of the strap.
I was in the "A" stream where we were relatively well behaved and reasonably well mannered but the teachers who had to put up with the "C" stream needed psychiatric help ... and they were only there to teach.
There must be some form of enforceable disipline in a great many schools - otherwise they can't function as they should and in turn fail the children who are there to learn.

I remember my dad once telling me when I was correcting my, then, 5 year old daughter for something, You'd have been as well gie'n hur a skelp oan the erse an be done wi' it, as leatherin' hur wi' yer tongue for 10 minutes.
He was right rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Dylan 19th Sep 2011, 12:45pm

Dave,

If private schools can do it any school can.

All children are the same at age 5 .!

TEE,

No misinterpretation, hitting anyone is violence , although some may argue by degree.

I do not.

Hit a child in the street and the Police will soon confirm this, in fact hit anyone in the street ?.

Carry on Gods Work Pal tongue.gif

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 19th Sep 2011, 12:47pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 19th Sep 2011, 01:31pm) *
Carry on Gods Work Pal tongue.gif

I gave Him my notice when I was about 15. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Dylan 19th Sep 2011, 01:12pm

Awwwwww Nawwwww.

I love fires mad.gif

Posted by: Dave Grieve 19th Sep 2011, 01:33pm

TeeHeeHee
I'me glad to see somebody has realised disipline doesen't have to mean the belt or violence.

Dylan

I dont understand you, you seem to have some kind of fixation on disipline only meaning kids getting hit. when you drive a car you dont drive all over the place doing what you want, you follow the rules of the road in other words you are a disiplined driver.

If as you say private schools can instill manners and disipline into pupils from the age of 5 onwards, why doesn't it happen in Glasgow?
The main reason it cant happen in Glasgow is down to the parents having no pride in themselves and the reason for that is because their parents in turn have been robbed of their rights to disipline and chastise their kids at home.
Couple that with teachers being robbed of all parental powers while the kids are in their charge and you have a recipe for disaster
Any time I go to Glasgow all I see and hear is foul mouthed youngsters who cant put two words together without swearing.
I dont live in a paradise, far from it but you can walk about all day here without hearing as much cursing and swearing as you will in one hour in the center of Glasgow.
Pride and manners should begin in the home and should only be continued in school.
perhaps thats the main reason Glasgow has fallen so far behind

Posted by: Dylan 19th Sep 2011, 01:55pm

" Dylan

I dont understand you, you seem to have some kind of fixation on disipline only meaning kids getting hit. "


Where did I say this Dave, I may be old but not senile yet.!

Corporal Punishment on children means kids getting hit. !

That is a fact.

I believe in discipline, I have told you I brought up my children using discipline but you do not have to hit a child to disipline it.

I think you do Glasgow Parents a great injustice.

Just my opinion but there are many Glasgow Parents on this Board and some may agree with me that we have pride in ourselves and our children.!!!!!

Could it be that Private Schools have a greater Teacher to pupil ratio and only hire the best Teachers ?

Posted by: glasgow lass 19th Sep 2011, 02:10pm

o so well said Dylan!.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 19th Sep 2011, 02:16pm

Found this a minute or two ago ... can't see it bein' off topic somehow. tongue.gif

http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/Images/TheNewTeacher_tcm4-581839.pdf


Posted by: Dave Grieve 19th Sep 2011, 02:25pm

Hey my man you can twist things, you dont have to say anything to give an impresion, just keep on with the same point!
I also said that kids at the goverment schools have pride and disipline and I know that they cant afford the best teachers.
Also the kids that go to goverment schools here are from ordinary working class families who realise the advantage a good education can give to their child.
Not to get your Matric (O levels) here is considered a big failure and both parent and child realise it.

I dont know where you live Dylan but next time you walk about dear old Glesga toon try opening your eyes and ears, you just might come to understand what I am getting at.

Posted by: Dave Grieve 19th Sep 2011, 02:40pm

QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 19th Sep 2011, 04:02pm) *
Found this a minute or two ago ... can't see it bein' off topic somehow. tongue.gif

http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/Images/TheNewTeacher_tcm4-581839.pdf


Like it THH

If that was the only problem we had, we wouldn't have a problem.

Posted by: Dylan 19th Sep 2011, 03:34pm

So Dude Dave, you think you are more savvy and streetwise than me and that is how you have a better understanding of Glasgow people .

I will be in the Horseshoe Bar tomorrow.

You will recognise me as the one with the glaiket expression.

See me, See wisestreets cool.gif


Posted by: wee davy 19th Sep 2011, 03:42pm

QUOTE (GG @ 19th Sep 2011, 12:05am) *
I can almost hear the rythmic thud of worn leather on the wooden floors! smile.gif

GG.


THAT WIZ MA HEID LOL

Posted by: Dave Grieve 19th Sep 2011, 03:43pm

I thought you were enjoying the discussion?
You still haven't put up any suggestions as to how to improve schooling in Glasgow and I think with your last post you lost any credibility.

Totsiens rah noo

Posted by: Dylan 19th Sep 2011, 03:48pm

I was enjoying the debate.

I do not have a solution to the education problem just as you do not have a sense of humour.

Say la vee.

Posted by: wee davy 19th Sep 2011, 03:50pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 19th Sep 2011, 04:20pm) *
I will be in the Horseshoe Bar tomorrow.

You will recognise me as the one with the glaiket expression.

See me, See wisestreets cool.gif


Tryin' tae make it difficult, eh? laugh.gif tongue.gif

Posted by: Dylan 19th Sep 2011, 04:13pm

laugh.gif

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 19th Sep 2011, 04:14pm

In the name o' the wee man! Haw Davy, don't you come in here causin' any trouble. Get an education furst. tongue.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: wee davy 19th Sep 2011, 04:53pm

I'd rather have a WURST THEE!

Posted by: mlconnelly 19th Sep 2011, 05:05pm

Excellent wee poem Tee. Mary laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: wee davy 19th Sep 2011, 05:05pm

My apologies for swanning off topic.

The truth of the matter is, if Glasgow is ever going to address the apparent deterioration in Educational Standards - its going to need all the help and determination it can muster.

In the pre and post war decades, although school discipline WAS particularly brutal in many ways it was effective in providing a consistently high standard

Now - the one thing we HAVE seen - in the last 40+ years - is successive and determined over Liberal attitudes creeping into both teaching methods - and a steady lack of discipline - both at school - AND at home.

THIS IS NOT A CO-INCIDENCE!

IMO The solution lies somewhere between capital punishment - (not abuse) and the introduction of a VALID agreement between parents and teachers about the measures used to control and encourage positive behaviour.

Posted by: angel 19th Sep 2011, 05:31pm



IMO The solution lies somewhere between capital punishment - (not abuse) and the introduction of a VALID agreement between parents and teachers about the measures used to control and encourage positive behaviour.

I'm thinking that just could be the problem Dave, no one will take on the responsibility of capital punishment " Not abuse " . what ever that would be ,

Posted by: Dylan 19th Sep 2011, 05:48pm

Capital Punishment Angel ?

Are you suggesting we Hang the naughty wee blighters ohmy.gif

Posted by: angel 19th Sep 2011, 05:55pm


Capital Punishment Angel ?

Are you suggesting we Hang the naughty wee blighters


Not unless you feel inclined Dylan . biggrin.gif biggrin.gif Take care .

Posted by: Dylan 19th Sep 2011, 06:34pm

Hang em high Angel laugh.gif

Posted by: Heather 19th Sep 2011, 08:50pm

Our son went to a Private School for his Secondary Education in the early 70s and there was no corporal punishnent.
They got 'sides' which was a slip of paper with about 6/7 lines on it and the top line had a saying on it which the boy had to copy on the rest of the lines in his best handwriting.
What ever the mis-behaviour was depended on how many sides they got. The sides were checked and if not written very good they had to do it all over again.
If it was considered the boy had broken a serious rule the parents got a letter informing them about it.
We got a letter one time and when I phoned the College the Priest who answered was one I knew and he laughed at me and told me, ' away and blow your whistle if that's all you have to worry you'. He knew I was a Netball Coach.
Apparently our son had been caught talking during a grand silence. laugh.gif

Posted by: eidas 19th Sep 2011, 09:13pm

QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 18th Sep 2011, 09:28pm) *
Surely if a Labour administration has, over several generations, removed the power from schools to administer disipline to pupils, then that Labour adminidstration must carry the can for the poor educational standards seen in schools all these generations later?
The old adage, spare the rod... springs to mind.

I think you'll find corporal punishment in schools was outlawed by the Thatcher government in 1987. However, it makes no difference which government introduced it, good on it for doing so!

I went to a school where the strap was used on a regular basis. It's in our nature to dislike some people we meet (or even those we don't meet, such as politicians), teachers are no different and I can clearly recall the dislike (perhaps bordering on hatred) some teachers had for some children!

Posted by: GG 19th Sep 2011, 09:58pm

In terms of improving exam results, the topic of this discussion, I think it is fair to say that corporal punishment (CP) is a red herring. Remember that CP is banned in all Scottish and British schools, not just schools in Glasgow. Even if punishing the child was to lead to improved exam results (highly debatable), this would happen more or less universally across all schools in Britain, still leaving Glasgow schools at the bottom of league tables for attainment.

I think the debate about CP also to a large extent puts the locus of blame for poor performance in schools on the pupils, rather in what happens concerning teaching and administration policy, i.e. the remit of the council. Are we seriously saying that Glasgow has the worst educational attainment record over decades because the city has the worst-behaved children? If that's the case, can anyone explain what is happening at Jordanhill School, Glasgow's state-funded, non fee-paying school in the west of the city which is regularly amongst the top three performing state schools in Scotland?

GG.

Posted by: Dave Grieve 20th Sep 2011, 06:32am

QUOTE
"can anyone explain what is happening at Jordanhill School, Glasgow's state-funded, non fee-paying school in the west of the city which is regularly amongst the top three performing state schools in Scotland?"

My personal opinion is you will find that the Parents are very much involved, both in attending school meetings and encouraging their kids. It could also be that the teachers are more motivated by feeding on the pupils responces.

Posted by: Dylan 20th Sep 2011, 07:41am

GG said.

"In terms of improving exam results, the topic of this discussion, I think it is fair to say that corporal punishment (CP) is a red herring."

Exactly and is why I introduced a tounge in cheek levity !!!

Posted by: Melody 20th Sep 2011, 10:47am

QUOTE
" If that's the case, can anyone explain what is happening at Jordanhill School, Glasgow's state-funded, non fee-paying school in the west of the city which is regularly amongst the top three performing state schools in Scotland?"

Easily Martin, take a well enough heeled area where parents are not beaten down by poverty and worry. Take those same parents who are able to retain 'normal' high ambition for their children. No specialised teaching required, no discipline problems, = Success. smile.gif

Posted by: Dave Grieve 20th Sep 2011, 01:02pm

QUOTE (Melody @ 20th Sep 2011, 12:33pm) *
" If that's the case, can anyone explain what is happening at Jordanhill School, Glasgow's state-funded, non fee-paying school in the west of the city which is regularly amongst the top three performing state schools in Scotland?"

Easily Martin, take a well enough heeled area where parents are not beaten down by poverty and worry. Take those same parents who are able to retain 'normal' high ambition for their children. No specialised teaching required, no discipline problems, = Success. smile.gif

Melody when I first read your post my first reaction was at last someone has put their finger on the problem.
I then started thinking about what you said about poverty and worry and decided thats not the reason.
Over here we have black people living in poverty like you could not imagine, the poorest person living in Glasgow lives a life of luxury compared to some of them, but the one thing most of the local blacks do is make sure they have money for their childrens education, not only for their secondary education but they will insure that if their kids are talented enough to go to university they will deprive themselves of everything to make sure their child gets the best education possible, with the minimum expected a matric (o levels).
They know the value of a good education for their kids future and will do anything to ensure they get it.
Try living in a tin shack with only a mother working to provide for three or four or more people and still being determined to insure your kids get a better life than you have had.
Thats poverty and worry
Sorry Melody but for me the reasons you put forward are not the problem.

Posted by: Melody 20th Sep 2011, 03:12pm

I can only speak from my experience in this country Dave. Education was often viewed as the way out of poverty here too in the past.

Posted by: ashfield 20th Sep 2011, 07:04pm

QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 20th Sep 2011, 02:48pm) *
Melody when I first read your post my first reaction was at last someone has put their finger on the problem.
I then started thinking about what you said about poverty and worry and decided thats not the reason.

Dave, you have described the situation in South Africa very well but I don't think you can equate the sociology of North Glasgow with the townships. There is a deep rooted problem in Glasgow, and as I alluded to in an earlier post, I don't see there being a single solution to what is a complex problem.

I agree with Melody about issues of poverty contributing, look at the economics of those areas doing well with those doing badly and it is as plain as the nose on your face. It is not just a poverty of economic proportions though, it is the lack of political will to resolve the failing infrastructures of the schemes. It is the generations of family unemployment, the suspicion with which success is viewed and the draining of what little ambition some families have left (think Rab C's "we're rubbish and we know we are"). We don't just need to sort the system of education, we need to sort the social injustice that exists.

I can already hear folk saying, look at me, we were poor and I did all right. My answer to that would be "there for the grace of" etc etc.

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 20th Sep 2011, 07:10pm

QUOTE (ashfield @ 20th Sep 2011, 08:50pm) *
We don't just need to sort the system of education, we need to sort the social injustice that exists.

What social injustices do you consider lead to the current situation?

Posted by: wee davy 20th Sep 2011, 07:26pm

Va va va voom! What a million dollar question, Alex mellow.gif

Posted by: Melody 20th Sep 2011, 07:43pm

As it is the situation in Glasgow North East we were discussing: Where to begin?

With 75% living in Glasgow North East classed as being in poverty, the constituency is, perhaps, the ultimate example of Britain’s ‘broken society’. Maybe this is a wee clue?

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 20th Sep 2011, 08:42pm

The report, curiously enough, isn't about the achievements (or perhaps more to the point, lack of achievement) of school leavers today and the current performance of Glasgow schools. It was a survey of adults of working age in the age range 16 - 64.

I think it can be agreed relatively easily that adults of 64 left school a long time ago. So this report isn't a snapshot, it's an integration across half a century, and there is perhaps little in the way of ammunition to fire at current educational standards or evidence in favour of a return to flog-em disciplinary methods.

Posted by: Heather 20th Sep 2011, 09:00pm

I think one way to sort out the discipline in schools, is for there to be more interaction between Teachers & parents with a lot of honesty on both sides.
Teachers should keep a recored of all mis-behavior of pupils and report this to the parents.
There would probaby be the need of a Security Officer hovering nearby.

Immigrants should not be allowed into main stream education until they are proficient in the English language.

Posted by: GG 20th Sep 2011, 09:06pm

I would agree that the issue is a complex one, and, by definition, one which has no easy solution. I think poverty, especially relative poverty, i.e. inequality has a lot to do with the problems people in Glasgow face. As Dave mentioned, in terms of absolute poverty, even poor Glaswegians appear to be better off than many other groups worldwide, however, even so, they still suffer much worse. An example of this is that a boy born in Calton is expected to live, on average, to 54 years of age, some 28 years less than a boy born in Lenzie just few miles away. On a global scale, that Calton boy will die years before a boy born in India, where the average daily income is less than a £1 per day. Although relatively 'more affluent', Glaswegians are still suffering to a greater extent than people in Third World countries.

One of the biggest barriers to achievement in education is 'poverty of aspiration' where kids quickly lose the will to do well in education. I saw this especially in my north Glasgow schools when we moved from primary to secondary schools. One of the biggest problems was the widespread lack of empathy shown by teachers to pupils. I could see in the faces of the teachers at secondary school that they simply didn't want to be where they were – either in the school or in the area. The school was one of the 'worst' in Glasgow, and the area was in rapid decline industrially, economically and socially. One thing that has always stayed with me was how no teacher wanted to be stay beyond four o'clock; they were always eager to retrieve their cars from the protected compound and speed away. There were never any prize-givings or social events in the evening. I knew the area was poor, but to see the almost contempt which teachers had for the place was, I think, very damaging to many children who became aware of it.

GG.

Posted by: glasgow lass 20th Sep 2011, 09:27pm

This is somewhat of what c/b has been saying in his http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=21782&view=findpost&p=3553578, it is very sad that some teachers have this kind of negative attatude toward certain children and it can be so crippling to many kids. Its a downright disgrace for any teacher to to show such snobbery.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 20th Sep 2011, 09:28pm

Back to John Bell of HeraldScotland ...

QUOTE
What would I do?
Clearing up the mess for illiterate addicts who choose to have children is not, or should not be, the school system’s task. Teachers have enough on their hands. Maintaining public libraries, or throwing laptops at people in dire need, will not restore Scottish education. Castigating Tory economic policies in a city dependent on the public realm makes plenty of sense, in its own right, but it will not solve this problem.

Money, contrary to the spirit of the age, will do that. I favour an old – these days horrifically expensive – solution: you get kept back. If you fail, you study again, and are taught again. In short, no-one is allowed to leave any school without a qualification, without demonstrable evidence of literacy, numeracy, or a useful skill. Isn’t that the law?

It would break every budget, of course. I would respond to that charge by asking after the sums being paid, right now, to ensure failure for a whole generation, and for generations yet to come.

The Idea of being kept back to study again was successful in RAF training schools and education sections.

Posted by: mlconnelly 20th Sep 2011, 10:21pm

Makes sense to me. Mary

Posted by: murphy 21st Sep 2011, 04:53am

I do not think you can make poverty an excuse, I grew up in Glasgow in rhe 40s we were all poor in the east end of Glasgow, went to school with holes in the arms of sweaters, boys wore tackity boots. Could it be the children do not want to learn they are happy with their lives doing nothing constructive, I have read through all the answers and there are some very good ones, I like the one where the lady mention Teachers Aides I thinks that is a great Idea. These children need self esteem and to be taught work ethics., and then there would be a diference in their education. I am sure not all the children in these areas are wasters, instead of giving money to people who move from other countries and get money from the Government said them back to where they came and put the money in the School system for Scottish children and the advancement of our country.

Posted by: Melody 21st Sep 2011, 08:07am

Most Asylum Seekers and Refugees have far higher aspirations that our children sadly. You probably would find it difficult to imagine some of the horrors these poor souls have faced and I know this from experience.
They come here often with no English they learn exceptionally quickly, so much so that it is quite staggering to observe. Their families are extremely ambitious for their children often indeed they are very well educated themselves.
To be honest some of our Scottish parents could take a lesson from these parents in what it is to be a good parent.
Please do not condemn people without any experience or knowledge of them. These children are far better off being integrated as quickly as possible and to be honest they can put our own to shame.

I hear young parents in particular actually using the worst of swear words to their tiny children in the street these days. Where does that show any self discipline never mind a good start and good example in life for our own infants? The duty of rearing a child does not lie with teachers it lies firmly with parents that is where discipline, respect and self reliance is taught. When they are of an age to go to school those lessons are already learnt or not as the case may be.

Family breakdown has much to answer for too in my opinion. Children need nurturing.

Posted by: Scotsman 21st Sep 2011, 11:48am

Have not been on for a few days but I did enjoy reading through the replies to this interesting discussion. It seems that so many things are being done wrong with education and other things which are related to it in this city that I just wondered if anyone thinks there is anything that the city fathers are actually getting right regarding education?? Is it all doom and gloom.... or is there hope on the horizon??

I would agree with the many who say that the home life is important and that the role of the parents is the one which should prepare children for their time in schools but are we maybe asking too much of parents who have also been through the same system and been failed?? A vicious cycle perhaps and who can imagine the situation of what the children of todays children will be like in 20 years time??

I was one of the worn jumpers and tackity boots brigade but I also think that some teachers could have helped me better.... some were just far too strict and wanted you to shut up even when asking for honest help.

Posted by: Heather 21st Sep 2011, 12:47pm

I was reading in one of todays newspapers that Teachers in cash-strapped schools are using their own money to buy basic classroom supplies.
Paper, pencils, ink, rulers & glue and those Teachers who can't afford it have to watch pupils go without.

Apparently school budgets have been cut by over 50% and schools are at breaking point.

Posted by: wee davy 21st Sep 2011, 12:50pm

QUOTE
Family breakdown has much to answer for too in my opinion. Children need nurturing.

An increasingly and predominately Secular and Godless Society only tends to encourage and support such negative outcomes.
The early breakdown of 'families' is most CERTAINLY a factor.
Not since before the war, have women 'looked after the nest', and the man went out to put meat (well in my case, beans on toast lol) on the table.

At the risk of being sent to Coventry, by 80% of the female population, it is
also a consequence of Equality.

THE most important factor, in nurturing children, is a mother's influence.
There is no stronger and essential ingredient to their development. What other results should we expect, when mothers are effectively FORCED to see their 'lot' as giving up quality time to their home, in turn for sufficient funds to run an adequate lifestyle?

In my view, women would do well to 'fight for the right' to remain at home in order to give tomorrow's children a fair 'crack'. I know however, this is not very 'PC' - not very 'modern thinking' - and a feminist's nightmare wink.gif

Please send all complaints to GG Admin (sorry Martin smile.gif )

wee davy

Posted by: wee davy 21st Sep 2011, 12:50pm

QUOTE
Family breakdown has much to answer for too in my opinion. Children need nurturing.

An increasingly and predominately Secular and Godless Society only tends to encourage and support such negative outcomes.
The early breakdown of 'families' is most CERTAINLY a factor.
Not since before the war, have women 'looked after the nest', and the man went out to put meat (well in my case, beans on toast lol) on the table.

At the risk of being sent to Coventry, by 80% of the female population, it is
also a consequence of Equality.

THE most important factor, in nurturing children, is a mother's influence.
There is no stronger and essential ingredient to their development. What other results should we expect, when mothers are effectively FORCED to see their 'lot' as giving up quality time to their home, in turn for sufficient funds to run an adequate lifestyle?

In my view, women would do well to 'fight for the right' to remain at home in order to give tomorrow's children a fair 'crack'. I know however, this is not very 'PC' - not very 'modern thinking' - and a feminist's nightmare wink.gif

Please send all complaints to GG Admin (sorry Martin smile.gif )

wee davy

Posted by: Melody 21st Sep 2011, 01:08pm

laugh.gif Davy jist to make it worse ye said it twice. laugh.gif It's ok ye can lift yer head.

To a certain degree I completely agree with you. Personally I chose to stay at home when my children were small, to be honest there was no way I would have left them with anyone else in this world. My choice, and the thing is I did have a choice, we had to cut our coat to suit our cloth but it was completely worth it to me even although I never really enjoyed being at home all the time.

Poor young ones today have little or no choice Davy or at least they perceive themselves to have no option but to go out to work. The churches turned into dance halls, it says it all really. Divorce went from being a kind of disgrace to being perfectly acceptable. That's if anybody bothers anymore about being married. I don't know what the answers are Davy. So much has changed so it really comes as no surprise that children grow up very differently these days. The product of all this Godless Society as you call it is what the poor teacher has to contend with in class.

Yes, Heather the personal purchase of materials has gone on for decades it's possibly going to get worse.

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 21st Sep 2011, 01:11pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 21st Sep 2011, 02:36pm) *
The early breakdown of 'families' is most CERTAINLY a factor.
Not since before the war, have women 'looked after the nest', and the man went out to put meat (well in my case, beans on toast lol) on the table.

I'm not sure it's as simple as that, certainly if one is also to argue that poverty leads to poor educational attainment.

In my case, our parents had little money to spare, with six children to feed and clothe. My mother went out to work to supplement the household income, but it didn't lead to a "breakdown of the family" with consequential effects on our schooling. She went out to work precisely to ensure that we had all the support they could provide both domestically and scholastically.

My wife went out to work for similar reasons when we had a family to bring up. My daughter is now a teacher and my son a police officer. This does not fit the nineteen-fifties sex roles pattern, and it was not an uncommon thing, either among my parents' neighbours, or mine.

Posted by: Melody 21st Sep 2011, 01:15pm

Alex can I ask? What qualities would you say that your mother possessed that are missing in today's young mothers? This could possibly answer the question as to what's wrong or at least missing today.

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 21st Sep 2011, 02:22pm

Gosh, listing my mother's qualities -- what's the word limit on posts?

She was a hard worker, and like my father, her family was central to her life, something she inherited from her own parents. She wanted her children to have a better start to life than she had, so she did housekeeping for others, cleaning, washing, and the like. Even when the need was gone, she carried on working, moving on from physical work to clerical work.

She'd help me with my homework (to make sure it got done) even where she had no knowledge at all of the subject. I remember her drilling me in French vocabulary, reading out the English words in the list, and having a good stab at recognising the French from my pronunciation. With English homework, if there was something in a reading passage I didn't understand, and she didn't know the words, she'd tell me, "Just read on a bit more, and you'll work it out from the context!" Invariably, she was right. By jove, there are times when I could have seen her far enough, when I'd rather be out playing with my chums and she insisted on homework being done first, but I look back on it differently now.

Although we never felt the want of anything, they had little money to spare, things were tight, and I was twenty years old before they first had a family holiday away. My parents saved up for a long time for that holiday.

I look back on them now, both gone, and think about what they achieved. I earned three times what my parents did, bringing up two children, where they brought up six. The magnitude of what they did now overwhelms me. They never left a bean, but what they did leave was a family and a treasure store of memories, and once a year (it's this weekend coming), we all get together, from all parts of the UK, to visit their grave and remember them, and have a marvellous time re-telling old stories and anecdotes, then the traditional toast to their memory. We call the gathering One Foot in the Grave, for reasons that may appear disrespectful if I try to explain them, but which would have had our mother howling with laughter.

I guess what is coming out of this is that it is not money, or the lack of it, in our case at least, that has the biggest influence on how we do at school, but a combination of the school itself and the support and attitudes at home. I am loth to suggest that my experience is a template for a solution to the issue being discussed, but I don't think, either, that my anecdotal experience is unusual.

Posted by: Melody 21st Sep 2011, 02:47pm

Thank you Alex, you describe wonderful parents there. Parents who held loving admirable qualities, qualities which I recognise in my own parents and grandparents and my husband's parents and grandparents. They really devoted their lives to us. No matter what the family came first. We were very lucky. Thank you again.

Poverty alone I know is not the soul cause of the lack of the above good qualities. There is also a poverty of another kind, a poverty of spirit. I don't seem to be able to put my finger on one thing that has caused this kind of malaise we see these days. Maybe it's a mixture of things. People seem to have lost their way somehow.




Posted by: Dave Grieve 21st Sep 2011, 03:58pm

QUOTE (Melody @ 21st Sep 2011, 04:33pm) *
Thank you Alex, you describe wonderful parents there. Parents who held loving admirable qualities, qualities which I recognise in my own parents and grandparents and my husband's parents and grandparents. They really devoted their lives to us. No matter what the family came first. We were very lucky. Thank you again.

Poverty alone I know is not the soul cause of the lack of the above good qualities. There is also a poverty of another kind, a poverty of spirit. I don't seem to be able to put my finger on one thing that has caused this kind of malaise we see these days. Maybe it's a mixture of things. People seem to have lost their way somehow.

Could it be Melody that the goverment has taken too much responsibility away from families day to day lives.
The big difference between the parents of yesteryear and today is in those days the parents were more in charge in their family's life whereas today the goverment wants to interfere and control everybody.

Posted by: wee davy 21st Sep 2011, 03:59pm

If I know ONE thing - the WAY is NOT the way, of people like Richard Dawkins - an intelligent man, who would want for all things spiritual to be erased/eradicated from the human psychi.

His blatant attempt at reaching young minds, with his own style of intense fundamentalism, in his new book, stands testament to that. His creed is it is only Science which matters.
In so many ways, this is also a factor, as is early breakdown of 'families' Alex. Your post simply reinforces my argument that it is the FAMILY which REALLY matters, in all of this.

He said the other day (Dawkins), he quite liked the Genesis story.

Wonder why he didn't choose The Passion.

Peace

QUOTE
The big difference between the parents of yesteryear and today is in those days the parents were more in charge in their family's life whereas today the goverment wants to interfere and control everybody.

Dave

The blame for this, falls squarely on the insane drive towards all things secular, Dave

Posted by: Isobel 21st Sep 2011, 08:25pm

Respect, I honestly feel that this is what we have lost.
Many of the children and young adults have no respect for authority. Parents, teachers, etc.

I dont often ride the bus however when on vacation in Glasgow two years ago it sure was an education riding the bus from Bishopbriggs to Glasgow.
I was blown away not only at the way the children spoke to their parents ,but the way parents spoke to their children.

My youngest daughter is a school teacher and she has spoken about how things have changed since she went to school. Not that long ago either she is 30.Teachers have their hands tied there is only so much they can do.So the problem is not just a Glasgow problem its world wide. However our education system is considered one of the best. I have said many times to the family I wish I was going to school these days. Its so interesting and geared to the pupils needs.

I left school in 1960 at that time my education was considered a good one.I attended Charlotte Street senior secondary school. I only had a school certificate when I left but it opened many doors for me.The Scottish education was considered one of the best ,if not the best in the world. Not anymore it seems to have become a joke.What went wrong?

I think we were given the right tools to go out into the world and continue our education. Most of my friends have done very well for themselves. Mind you we did'nt look for hands out or free rides.

Give the educators their power back and get back to basics, reading writing and math.Make sure all children have the basics before they can leave school.

Posted by: glasgow lass 21st Sep 2011, 10:30pm

For starters Glasgow should get rid of its methadone maintenance programs, this is so disgusting and its only enabling continued drug using. That would be first on my list to scrap that program , I cant believe whats going on in my beloved city, the children should be the priority not the drug users.

Posted by: mlconnelly 21st Sep 2011, 11:17pm

Your right Lass. Methadone is actually no less addictive than herion and most junkies use it to supplement their habit. Mary sad.gif

Posted by: GG 21st Sep 2011, 11:20pm

QUOTE (Heather @ 18th Sep 2011, 07:56pm) *
Lass, I remember when in Primary School those of us who finished our sums first, were told to sit with the one's who were bit slower and help them.

The same thing happened at home. Our mum would tell the older one's to help the younger one's with their homework.

Hi Heather, this 'buddy learning' system is back on the agenda after virtually disappearing from the school system for many years following the focus of education moving almost exclusively to the teacher teaching:

QUOTE
Pupils 'can help teach each other to read and do maths'
14 September 2011

Children as young as seven can help teach each other to read and do maths, research suggests.

A two-year study of 7,000 pupils in 129 primary schools in Scotland suggests pupils benefit from tutoring each other in regular, short sessions.

These involve two pupils of different academic ability and sometimes different ages.

Assessments at the beginning and end of the programme showed peer tutoring had a consistently positive effect. ...

Full story here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-14896716

GG.

Posted by: Heather 22nd Sep 2011, 11:43am

GG, I wonder why it was stopped in the first place. It was done right through my Primary School days but within our own class.

I remember during the 80s our son was a volunteer helping a young lad who had left school but could hardly read or write.
I know there were Evening Classes to help those who had problems reading and writing, but this was different as it was done on a one to one basis one evening a week.

I was interested in being a volunteer when I retired but could not find out any information about it, so I assumed it had been stopped. I don't know why as it was voluntary with no payment made to the volunteers.

I think it's bad enough that children leave Primary School unable to read or write and worse when leaving at 16 yrs of age still never having learned.

Posted by: Dylan 22nd Sep 2011, 11:52am

Dave

"The blame for this, falls squarely on the insane drive towards all things secular"


The children you are demonising did not attend a Secular School as there are no Secular Schools.

They attended a Christian School in a Christian Country, so the blame lies fair and square with Christians, some of whom are so blinkered they always look for someone else to blame if they can not find a solution.!!!

I am a Secularist but not militant and would never dream of insulting Christianity in the manner you have insulted Secularism.Live and let live.

Not my fault.!!.

France is a Secular State and they appear to be fairly civilised.?

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 22nd Sep 2011, 12:18pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 22nd Sep 2011, 01:38pm) *
The children you are demonising did not attend a Secular School as there are no Secular Schools.

They attended a Christian School in a Christian Country

Most schools in Scotland are non-denominational. Denominational schools are generally Roman Catholic or Episcopalian.


Posted by: wee davy 22nd Sep 2011, 12:54pm

Dylan

QUOTE (Dylan @ 22nd Sep 2011, 12:38pm) *
Dave

"The blame for this, falls squarely on the insane drive towards all things secular"


The children you are demonising did not attend a Secular School as there are no Secular Schools.
??? Hiv you been oan the Domestos, Dylan?
If you read what I have had to say on this topic, I have in no way attacked, demonised or set ANY blame upon the children. Quite the contrary.

They attended a Christian School in a Christian Country, so the blame lies fair and square with Christians, some of whom are so blinkered they always look for someone else to blame if they can not find a solution.!!!
My point entirely, Dylan. Christianity DOES have to share the blame, for in many ways allowing secularists to continually attempt to dominate and undermine social infrastructure,

I am a Secularist but not militant and would never dream of insulting Christianity in the manner you have insulted Secularism.Live and let live.

Because I challenge the belief that religion should not be involved with the ordinary social and political activities of this country, it doesn't follow that I do not 'live and let live'.

France is a Secular State and they appear to be fairly civilised.?
Open to discussion

PS If you really were a Secularist, you would know that as the UK is considered a secular state
so it follows, that all state schools are secular - first.


With respect, I stand by my statement which was made honestly, without wishing to offend.

Posted by: Dylan 22nd Sep 2011, 01:10pm

QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 22nd Sep 2011, 01:04pm) *
Most schools in Scotland are non-denominational. Denominational schools are generally Roman Catholic or Episcopalian.

Do not wish to be pedantic Alex but there are no Non Dom Schools, only RC et all or Public Schools ( often referred to as Protestant Schools.), however they are Christian Schools ( Christianity being the Denomination )but will admit anyone although RI is not compulsory.

I remember a Jewish Lad at our Primary who stood outside in the corrider during RI/RE.

In France they are Secular Schools with Religion taught by parents at home, where it belongs.

Posted by: Dylan 22nd Sep 2011, 01:15pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 22nd Sep 2011, 01:40pm) *
Dylan

""With respect, I stand by my statement which was made honestly, without wishing to offend."

Where is the respect ? Drinking Domestos ?Where is your proof that Secularists are to blame. ?

Not even in your opinion, a given. Not challenged my belief, stated Secularism is to blame

You have none, it is simply you looking for someone to blame.!

Would you write a similar piece about Muslims without wishing to offend and not offend them ?????

Posted by: wee davy 22nd Sep 2011, 01:32pm

You are taking my standpoint far to personally, Dylan.

Secularism is an ideology - not a religion.

I am entitled to have an opinion on its good/bad influence upon education and development of children in my country.

As do you have the same.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 22nd Sep 2011, 01:50pm

Hope this is some help. rolleyes.gif

Secularism
From Wikipedia

QUOTE
Secularism is the principle of separation between government institutions and the persons mandated to represent the State from religious institutions and religious dignitaries;

the principle that the state has no religion and there is no state religion;
persons elected to its legislative, nominated to official functions or in the administration(s) and person nominated in the judiciary cannot hold religious beliefs in their function but have to keep their religious beliefs exclusively for their private life
persons holding a religious office cannot be elected or nominated to public office.
western European secular states also define secularism as the freedom to worship, or to hold any religious belief or philosophical and ethical reference frame of thought.

In one sense, secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and the right to freedom from governmental imposition of religion upon the people within a state that is neutral on matters of belief. In another sense, it refers to the view that human activities and decisions, especially political ones, should be unbiased by religious influence. Some scholars are now arguing that the very idea of secularism will change.

Secularism draws its intellectual roots from Greek and Roman philosophers such as Marcus Aurelius and Epicurus, medieval Muslim polymaths such as Ibn Rushd, Enlightenment thinkers like Denis Diderot, Voltaire, Benedict Spinoza, John Locke, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine, and modern freethinkers, agnostics and atheists such as Bertrand Russell and Robert Ingersoll.

The purposes and arguments in support of secularism vary widely. In European laicism, it has been argued that secularism is a movement toward modernization, and away from traditional religious values (also known as "secularisation"). This type of secularism, on a social or philosophical level, has often occurred while maintaining an official state church or other state support of religion. In the United States, some argue that state secularism has served to a greater extent to protect religion from governmental interference, while secularism on a social level is less prevalent. Within countries as well, differing political movements support secularism for varying reasons.

Posted by: Dylan 22nd Sep 2011, 02:26pm

QUOTE (wee davy @ 22nd Sep 2011, 02:18pm) *
You are taking my standpoint far to personally, Dylan.

Secularism is an ideology - not a religion.

I am entitled to have an opinion on its good/bad influence upon education and development of children in my country.

As do you have the same

Not personal at all.

Just defending my opinion.

You did not say it was your opinion , you said Secularism was to blame.

If you had said IMO--no problem. You are now saying it is only your opinion--good, because you could not prove it as a given fact.. Read Tomi's Post 164 !!

Not very dangerous are we ?

However I will fight my problem without fear or favour

Posted by: wee davy 22nd Sep 2011, 02:31pm

Thank you, THEE.

One of only two original copies of Marcus Aurelius's 'Meditations' is held by the Vatican! (somewhat ironically, Bill Clinton's favourite book, apparently)

How's about THAT then lol

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 22nd Sep 2011, 02:38pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 22nd Sep 2011, 04:12pm) *
You did not say it was your opinion , you said Secularism was to blame.

This is a peculiar pedantry. What else is offered on board like this except opinion? Should every statement of yours not preceded with 'in my opinion' be assumed to be an established fact?

When you write, unqualified,
QUOTE
You have none, it is simply you looking for someone to blame.!

are you stating an established and proven fact, or merely expressing your own opinion of what you think goes on inside someone else's head?


Posted by: Dylan 22nd Sep 2011, 03:40pm

QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 22nd Sep 2011, 03:24pm) *
This is a peculiar pedantry. What else is offered on board like this except opinion? Should every statement of yours not preceded with 'in my opinion' be assumed to be an established fact?

You are fat-stating a fact.

I think you are fat--stating an opinion.

Nothing pedantary, peculiar or otherwise.

When you write, unqualified,

are you stating an established and proven fact, or merely expressing your own opinion of what you think goes on inside someone else's head?


YES.

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 22nd Sep 2011, 03:50pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 22nd Sep 2011, 05:26pm) *
You are fat-stating a fact.

I think you are fat--stating an opinion.

On this board, since you do not know me, you have no way of stating as a fact that I am fat.

QUOTE
"are you stating an established and proven fact, or merely expressing your own opinion of what you think goes on inside someone else's head?"

YES.

I think you are confused about the question that was put to you.

Posted by: Dylan 22nd Sep 2011, 05:32pm

I never said you were fat..

It was showing an comparison between an opinion and a fact !.

I am confused about the question that was put to me.

Ambiguity and lack of clarity do not lend themselves to good debate.

I took a stab at it. !!

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 22nd Sep 2011, 05:50pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 22nd Sep 2011, 07:18pm) *
I never said you were fat..

It matters not a jot. You are unable to prove it either way, concerning me or probably anyone else on this board. Certainly not without first defining what 'fat' means, and whether your definition is clinical or casual.

QUOTE
I am confused about the question that was put to me.

You confirm that my opinion was indeed fact...

QUOTE
Ambiguity and lack of clarity do not lend themselves to good debate.

When you wrote to 'wee davy'

"You have none, it is simply you looking for someone to blame."

I wanted to know whether it was a statement of fact (I need not explain the statement above, since it is your statement), or whether the sentence was merely your opinion, these being the two alternatives you yourself offer for any statement given on this board. I'm not sure how I can make your own statements simpler for you to understand. However, if you can tell me what confused you, I can try to make it clearer.


Posted by: angel 22nd Sep 2011, 05:53pm

Secularism: A definition

Secularism – what does it mean exactly?
Over the years the meaning of the word Secularism has become confused and misunderstood. As well as changing its meaning, and being open to interpretation in different ways, the word has also been misrepresented by some religious interests who fear the influence of secularism on privileges that they have enjoyed for centuries and taken for granted.

The following definition, by Muriel Fraser, who edits the Concordat Watch website is nearest to the understanding that the NSS has of secularism.

There is a thorough and wide-ranging examination of what secularism means in different parts of the world and how it is put into practice by some states called Secularism and Secularity – Contemporary International Perspectives, published here by the Institute for the Study of Secularism in Society and Culture.

A further description of secularism and the areas it covers can be found on the website of the Royal Society for the encouragement of Arts, Manufactures and Commerce (RSA).

What is secularism?
By Muriel Fraser
Many opponents of church-state separation try to distort the meaning of secularism. Some redefine it as state neutrality to allow their group (among others) to get state funding. Others try to discredit it by conflating secularism with atheism. Thus there are several senses of this word that we can safely ignore.


Posted by: Dylan 22nd Sep 2011, 06:30pm

QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 22nd Sep 2011, 06:36pm) *
It matters not a jot. You are unable to prove it either way, concerning me or probably anyone else on this board. Certainly not without first defining what 'fat' means, and whether your definition is clinical or casual.


You confirm that my opinion was indeed fact...


When you wrote to 'wee davy'

"You have none, it is simply you looking for someone to blame."

I wanted to know whether it was a statement of fact (I need not explain the statement above, since it is your statement), or whether the sentence was merely your opinion, these being the two alternatives you yourself offer for any statement given on this board. I'm not sure how I can make your own statements simpler for you to understand. However, if you can tell me what confused you, I can try to make it clearer.

I do not think you are fat. Somebody has obviously lied to me.

Sorry did not realise you were so self conscious.!

Mea culpa.

You said I was pedantic !!!!!

Dazed and Confused.

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 22nd Sep 2011, 07:43pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 22nd Sep 2011, 08:16pm) *
I do not think you are fat. Somebody has obviously lied to me.

Strictly speaking, you're only offering an opinion here, since there's no proof anyone said anything about me to you.

QUOTE
Sorry did not realise you were so self conscious.!

You keep introducing these assertions without prefacing them with 'in my opinion', since you cannot know whether I am self-conscious or not.

QUOTE
Mea culpa.

tua maxima culpa.

QUOTE
You said I was pedantic !!!!!

Merely showing that if you want to be a pedant, you have to be prepared to practise what you preach! The Pedant Police don't care who they pursue when the scent is in the air...


Posted by: Alex MacPhee 22nd Sep 2011, 08:01pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 22nd Sep 2011, 02:56pm) *
Do not wish to be pedantic Alex but there are no Non Dom Schools, only RC et all or Public Schools

Non-denominational schools are sometimes, and inaccurately, referred to as 'Protestant schools', but they are not. The Church of Scotland turned all its schools over to the state about a hundred and fifty years ago. Entry to an RC school is prioritised on religious grounds, entry to non-denominational schools is not. This is why they are non-denominational.

QUOTE
In France they are Secular Schools with Religion taught by parents at home, where it belongs.

This is not quite true. The state education ministry manages both public and private schools by contract ; almost all private schools are Catholic, and staff salaries are paid by the Ministère de l’Éducation Nationale.

Posted by: Dylan 22nd Sep 2011, 08:10pm

No one said anything to me about you. I made it up.

I do not know if you are self conscious or not. I made that up also.

However I suspect you made it up about The Pedantic Police.

You are off topic.!!

Posted by: Dylan 22nd Sep 2011, 08:27pm

QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 22nd Sep 2011, 08:47pm) *
Non-denominational schools are sometimes, and inaccurately, referred to as 'Protestant schools', but they are not. The Church of Scotland turned all its schools over to the state about a hundred and fifty years ago. Entry to an RC school is prioritised on religious grounds, entry to non-denominational schools is not. This is why they are non-denominational.

This is not quite true. The state education ministry manages both public and private schools by contract ; almost all private schools are Catholic, and staff salaries are paid by the Ministère de l’Éducation Nationale.

I thought you were having a laugh but you really need to win !!

If a School is a Christian School it can not be Non Dom by defination.

Christianity is taught , National Carriculum.

Non Dom became an accepted label for them for the very reasons you state..

.I could not find a state School for my children that did not teach Religion.

Your comments about France are also not quite true but I have lost the will to continue.

I will accept your next Post as the winmner

Last word .

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 22nd Sep 2011, 08:32pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 22nd Sep 2011, 10:13pm) *
Your comments about France are also not quite true

They are. I have spent a long time in French education and a long time in France.


Posted by: TeeHeeHee 22nd Sep 2011, 10:34pm

Ahhh, welcome back Alex. Welcome back. biggrin.gif
I used to do a bit of dueling in the RAF, sabre, foil and épée; the later being my favourite. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 22nd Sep 2011, 11:18pm

It's nice to be back.

Och, but épée was my favourite too. Sabre is fun but it can hurt (if you're up against a novice who thinks he's wielding a meat cleaver), and foil, well, that right of way thing is for those French pansies... A hit's a hit!

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 23rd Sep 2011, 12:07am

... and I had many a sore left hand to prove it. biggrin.gif

Posted by: angel 23rd Sep 2011, 01:09am

QUOTE
Do you think - based on your on experience - that Glasgow schools deserve to be placed at the bottom of the National league table ?

this , I understand was the topic of this thread which got lost practically at the start but as usual the so well educated testosterone took over,

George Whetstone, in Heptameron of Civil Discourses, 1582, wrote "The dashe of a Pen, is more greevous than the counterbuse of a Launce."

In Hamlet, 1602, Shakespeare gave Rosencrantz the line "... many wearing rapiers are afraid of goose-quills and dare scarce come thither."

Robert Burton's The Anatomy of Melancholy, 1621 includes "From this it is clear how much more cruel the pen may be than the sword."

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 23rd Sep 2011, 01:20am

QUOTE
Robert Burton's The Anatomy of Melancholy, 1621 includes "From this it is clear how much more cruel the pen may be than the sword."

Which brings us back to the use of the pen ... in schools, which Glasgow schools have been noted to lack. wink.gif

Posted by: angel 23rd Sep 2011, 01:33am

Exactly , this is what the topic is all about ,"today's education " in Glasgow
not elsewhere .

Posted by: murphy 23rd Sep 2011, 03:32am

Melody I know well what some of the people who seek freedoms in Scotland go through, you would have to live in a hole, not to realise their plight. But Scotland or Britain does not have the finances to help everyone who needs a home and money from the Government. I still think we need to help our own before we help others.

Posted by: GG 23rd Sep 2011, 07:44am

QUOTE (Melody @ 20th Sep 2011, 11:33am) *
Easily Martin, take a well enough heeled area where parents are not beaten down by poverty and worry. Take those same parents who are able to retain 'normal' high ambition for their children. No specialised teaching required, no discipline problems, = Success. smile.gif

Yes, Melody, I would certainly strongly agree with you that the parental influence is very important in motivating children to get the most from education; I have also seen the debilitating effect poverty has on the aspirations of both parents and children, as I am sure you have too. That said, what still concerns me is the 'absolute' nature of the results we see in terms of pupil attainment.

As an example: at Jordanhill last year 45% of fifth year pupils achieved five Highers; at Springburn Academy (Glasgow North East) 0% of pupils achieved five Highers. I simply do not believe that – due entirely to 'background' effects – not one of the 200+ pupils at Sprigburn Academy was able to gain five Highers (a relatively modest achievement today considering rampant grade inflation). I think this disgraceful result needs to be explained to Glaswegians in terms of a more holistic consideration of all factors, rather than for authorities simply to just pass the blame on to environmental influences alone. What is happening in that school which is preventing pupils achieve their natural potential?

GG.

Posted by: kenb 23rd Sep 2011, 09:19am

QUOTE (GG @ 23rd Sep 2011, 08:30am) *
Yes, Melody, I would certainly strongly agree with you that the parental influence is very important in motivating children to get the most from education ...

I went to kingsridge sen sec and waverley sen sec in drumchapel i got six o levels all b or above four highers all passes went on to stow college for civil eng on cert from a big family not known for brains it shows the right teachers the correct result give the schools back to the teachers. mad.gif

Posted by: Melody 23rd Sep 2011, 10:09am

I agree Martin, it would be very interesting to hear the schools explain such complete failure. We do our young a massive disservice by not bringing all this into the open. Glaswegians deserve to hear why they are being failed by the whole system.

Posted by: Melody 23rd Sep 2011, 06:31pm

How it used to be in 1960's. Stick with it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00jwr8g

It's not like this anymore. smile.gif

Posted by: GG 23rd Sep 2011, 07:51pm

Thanks, Melody, I look forward to watching this over the weekend. I watched the first five minutes and heard how the Secondary Moderns resulted from the Butler Education Act 1944 (Scotland in 1945) which was "designed to break down class barriers". As we can see in Glasgow, that concept/objective is completely gone now, with children in huge swathes of Glasgow condemned never to achieve social mobility, except perhaps downwards!

If Glasgow does have the worst schools in Britain, then we are in trouble, because, according to news this week in that esteemed publication, the Daily Mail:

QUOTE
Britain 'has the worst schools in Europe'

A devastating attack on the state of Britain's schools has been launched by a distinguished international research body.

As pupils become the first in Europe to be sent home because of teacher shortages, the respected Organisation for Economic and Co-operation and Development warned that the system could face 'meltdown'.

At the same time literacy levels among young Britons are among the worst in the industrialised world, with one in three lacking the basic skills to cope with everyday life, it said. ...

Full story here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-33993/Britain-worst-schools-Europe.html

GG.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 23rd Sep 2011, 11:30pm

QUOTE
It also measured the literacy skills needed to cope with everyday tasks at home or work ... Britain scored poorly on both counts. It trailed in 14th place in levels of absolute literacy - well behind countries such as Germany, Holland and Canada - and ranked 13th on the second list.

QUOTE
Topic : Diary of a Cancer Patient.
... I turned to see a teacher had joined us (quite right too! )
"He one of yours? Clever little begger aint he?"
"All my kids are clever" says he.

The teacher in question seemed more to be stating an accepted fact rather than simply bragging.

Posted by: DannyH 24th Sep 2011, 12:05am

If we turn the clock back to when I was at school from the mid 1930's to the late 1940's, there was full employment. Jobs were available for everybody leaving school who wanted to work.

In the Springburn area many, many boys learned a trade in the locomotive industry. Many of the girls worked in clothing factories or in shops. Some girls considered themselves fortunate to get employment in an office.

When we were at school, mental arithmetic was considered important because of the monetary system. There were 240 pennies to the pound and umpteen coins were in use. Many of the exam question consisted of a list of grocery items at different prices ranging from a farthing to a guinea.

So when the girls went to work in a grocers, they had a pencil behind an ear and would write down the price of all the items a customer had bought and then add it all up. Pity help them if they made a mistake. The customer would let them know!

What do girls and boys do now if they work in a grocers? They pass the items over the bar code reader and the total cost appears automatically. Now supermarkets have installed self-service bar code reader stations. They don't need so many employees.

And what about the boys? There is no major manufacturing industry in the Springburn area, or elsewhere in Scotland. Plenty of call centres though. The jobs many of we boys had required us to go to night school if we wanted to progress in life.

The decimal monetary system means that today's schoolchildren don't have to do the complicated calculations that were done years ago. Also, calculators and computers have removed any incentive for children to get involved in the mental process. Put it to the test. Ask a ten to twelve year old to calculate in their head, say 6x7x3.

Regarding English as a subject at school, I despair! Forget about deprivation. I have seen too many children from so called deprived areas on their phones, texting. The love of the English language is lost. In my opinion the reason for the poor results in English is that the children are just not interested. And why should they be? Texting is now accepted as the normal way of communicating. I know that from the number of people who write in the Texting language when they send me an e-mail via my computer. If I reply to them using capital letters at the beginning of every sentence, they send me a reply asking "Why are you shouting at me".

So to summarize, we can't compare the Glasgow education system of today, with that of the past. Everything has changed. If there is to be any hope in the future for your average working class child, we have to bring back jobs that give children an incentive to obtain. We also have to bring back the ethos of respect and responsibility. These have gone.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 24th Sep 2011, 12:56am

Danny says ..."Texting is now accepted as the normal way of communicating. I know that from the number of people who write in the Texting language when they send me an e-mail via my computer".

The difference Danny between gettin' a txt message from my kids, in their 40s, and their kids - teens to 20s - from England and gettin' a sims (short message service) from my German mates is incredible.
The txt messages from England have to be decoded and the sims have to be read with a cup of coffee nearby ... all written in full and proper hochdeutsche and no spelling mistakes with every noun having it's capital letter as the language demands.

Posted by: tamhickey 24th Sep 2011, 01:38am

There may be a couple of other reasons as to why the educational attainment of youngsters had fallen so badly. When Tony Blair's mantra of "Education, education, education" was first used, it held out a promise to young people that more University places would be offered, and that young people were to be valued. It was a noble idea, but came at a huge price. Yes, more people did go on to study at University, but as time went on it started to become clear that there were problems with this; too many graduates facing unemployment as too many were chasing too few jobs which led to a lot of emigration, lower starting salaries for those who stayed, (many having to take on internships prior to employment) fewer school leavers entering the workforce from school.
There were also associated problems with student loans and how they would be repaid and newspaper reports informing us of many graduate teachers being unable to find work. This, allied to the present recession which began in 2008 has left school students feeling there's not much point in working hard at school when they see no rewards in future. Smaller pensions and a longer expected working life are a real disincentive, especially when they see the money men from the banks, the City and speculators bailed out as the rest of us are told to suffer because of their failures.
It's no wonder that young people are disillusioned by their lot right now.

Posted by: Melody 24th Sep 2011, 08:43am

Brilliant post Tam. Many varied reasons for this apathy in the poorer area schools.


Posted by: TeeHeeHee 24th Sep 2011, 11:45am

Perhaps a wee bitty off topic but I enjoyed reading this story of one complete dunce, in his own words, who has recently been awarded an OBE for his work with dik ... disk ... dicleskik ... well kids who have readin' difficulties.


Winkler was honoured by none other than the Queen,
who made him an honorary OBE.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2041251/Henry-Winkler-torment-dyslexia.html

Posted by: GG 24th Sep 2011, 12:31pm

QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 24th Sep 2011, 01:42am) *
Danny says ..."Texting is now accepted as the normal way of communicating. I know that from the number of people who write in the Texting language when they send me an e-mail via my computer".

The difference Danny between gettin' a txt message from my kids, in their 40s, and their kids - teens to 20s - from England and gettin' a sims (short message service) from my German mates is incredible.
The txt messages from England have to be decoded and the sims have to be read with a cup of coffee nearby ... all written in full and proper hochdeutsche and no spelling mistakes with every noun having it's capital letter as the language demands.

It's very interesting to hear of this cultural difference, THH. I think texting is a great medium for communicating quick and simple messages, but do worry when children especially seem to think that this mode of communication is acceptable in other mediums. Again, education is the key to establishing conventions and boundaries in young people, and if they don't receive adequate teaching then how do they know how they should act in different situations?

From the Daily Mail report I mentioned above:
QUOTE
... It also measured the literacy skills needed to cope with everyday tasks at home or work, such as filling in forms or using bus and train timetables. Britain scored poorly on both counts. It trailed in 14th place in levels of absolute literacy - well behind countries such as Germany, Holland and Canada - and ranked 13th on the second list.

The report said 35 per cent of young Britons completed their secondary education without achieving this basic standard. This was nearly double the number in Germany and more than three times the level of functional illiteracy in Denmark and Finland. ...

GG.

Posted by: GG 24th Sep 2011, 12:47pm

QUOTE (DannyH @ 24th Sep 2011, 12:51am) *
... So to summarize, we can't compare the Glasgow education system of today, with that of the past. Everything has changed. If there is to be any hope in the future for your average working class child, we have to bring back jobs that give children an incentive to obtain. We also have to bring back the ethos of respect and responsibility. These have gone.

Great post DannyH, thanks. I think you are absolutely right about respect and responsibility. Education is widely believed to consist of three domains:
As can clearly be interpreted from Glasgow's disgraceful qualifications achievement, pupils' cognitive or knowledge development is the poorest in Britain (Europe?). However, if this is replicated across the other educational domains, then what we see is children who grow into adults without understanding their own and other people's feelings and emotions. This lack of affective understanding leads, in my opinion, to disastrous consequences both for their personal development and also for the relationships they form and the communities they live in.

If we consider the psychomotor domain, if children's learning is poor here then they will lick the basic skills to function within society, from maintaining their garden through to showing their children to ride a bike.

http://www.nwlink.com/~donclark/hrd/bloom.html

GG.

Posted by: GG 24th Sep 2011, 01:32pm

QUOTE (tamhickey @ 24th Sep 2011, 02:24am) *
... It's no wonder that young people are disillusioned by their lot right now.

Couldn't agree more, Tam. And if you look in your own area you see that the great locomotive building companies have been replaced by the likes of Tesco as employers. So much for the billions spent on the inward investment quangos and development agencies in Glasgow!

GG.

Posted by: gedboy 26th Sep 2011, 09:51am

As a teacher in Glasgow perhaps I can add some experience to the debate.

Currently I am teaching in a North East Glasgow Secondary. It is easily the best school in which I have ever worked in my thirty years of paid employment. The success is down to many things, including:

1) Fantastic discipline from the Headteacher down: no homework, too much make-up or a poorly knotted tie are seen as only slightly less appalling than murder. This leaves me to get on with teaching. In other Glasgow schools I have utilised the psychological skills of a nightclub bouncer to get me through the day and done almost no teaching.

2) Supportive parents who clearly discipline their kids, telling them that schools and teachers are brilliant. The school clearly has very many poor pupils, as it takes in kids from five of the fifty poorest areas in Britain, including the poorest. However, the acceptance that the teacher is right is a principle I thought I would never see again in my working lifetime.

As a confirmed Socialist, I am firm in my understanding that poverty begets educational failure, though only to a point. I have suffered kids and parents who are aggressive in their rejection of education and do everything in their power every second of the day to prevent others learning. I have watched as kids pretended to be of low intelligence so they did not get battered. In doing so they sabotaged their own lives. However, for reasons which are not clear to me, nobody takes these parents to task.

I'm a good teacher, but I do not kid myself. Research suggests that my influence over the children is about 3%. The vast majority of attitudes and behaviours comes from parents and 'significant adults' in the family group. My kids love my lessons because they have been programmed to think teachers are great.

I could get a chicken with a limp through many exams, if only the kids do as I tell them, but this does not happen in most schools. With no home support I am dead in the water. People who don't teach possibly have a Mr Chips approach to teaching where the good teacher persuades the uninterested kid to shine. Wipe that from your mind right now.

I stupidly thought that if only I worked harder I could interest the kids and trust me, my lessons are often a hair's breadth away from cabaret. Boring I am not, but I had to admit defeat when I was puking up with stress before I went to school and then puking in the toilets before my first lesson/battle of the day.

One last comment: in the days of industry in Glasgow, the low ability kids would have ready made jobs requiring almost no written or mathematical skills in the factories of the East End. Those jobs are long gone. What do we now do with those children - who will not pass exams after their fifteenth birthdays no matter how hard they (and I) try? This is a debate that has not been started because there is an insane belief that you can keep on improving in every subject.

If only.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 26th Sep 2011, 11:18am

Welcome to the boards Gedboy. Quite a revealing post.
There's a topic here called Wee Stories From Your Work (General Chit Chat) where we'd love to read of some of your experiences biggrin.gif

QUOTE
I could get a chicken with a limp through many exams, if only the kids do as I tell them

Loved that. biggrin.gif

While in Tech Training (RAF) among the 13 classes that we went through was a 3 week course on helicopters ... which we had to complete in only 6 days. The instructor told us that if we wanted to pass the exam we had one option and that was to take everything he told us as gospel without trying to understand or ask questions (no time for answers) and to do our best in keeping good notes.
13 guys in the class and we all passed with marks around the 90s.
Mind you, we still didn't understand how they flew. laugh.gif

Posted by: wee davy 26th Sep 2011, 03:53pm

That makes two of us, THEE lol

Welcome indeed, gedboy.

I am so glad an experienced and current teacher has 'waded in' where others fears to tred. 2 things JUMP out at me. Your success very much depends upon support at home.

Secondly, young people be they academically challenged or destined to be Quantum Physicists, ALL deserve the equal opportunity to become of worth
to society.

ARE YOU LISTENING POLITICIANS???? THIS MEANS JOBS -
NOT INSANE DRIVES TOWARDS irrelevant and meaningless qualifications at so called 'higher/degree level'.

The one growth industry in this country has been extending the numbers of young people who are taken out of the unemployment equation, by a place at 'uni'. There are more 'unis' than you can shake a stick at - degree in making ninety nine ice creams aint gonna cut a rug I'm afraid.

Perhaps if we CLOSED all the so-called 'universities', and invested finance in creating jobs - we MIGHT just get ourselves out of the mess we now find ourselves in.
(I obviously dont mean ALL universities - just the pseudo ones)

Hope to hear more from you, ged wink.gif

Posted by: benny 26th Sep 2011, 09:19pm

I'd be interested to know the names of these "pseudo" universities, WeeDavy, and I have every confidence that you will supply them.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 26th Sep 2011, 09:36pm

Benny, hows about "The University of Life". I've known no end of Glaswegians who've told me they learned every they've ever known there. rolleyes.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: Scotsman 27th Sep 2011, 12:24pm

Gedboy.... as a confirmed Socialist you seem to pay an unusually brief lipservice to the real effects of poverty on children and their parents but seem content to spend considerable time lambasting both groups for their behaviours.

Are you perhaps a Socialist in the New Labour mould??

Posted by: GG 2nd Oct 2011, 02:12pm

Latest research, published last week, shows that Glasgow schoolchildren have the best character traits of any children in the UK when it comes to overcoming adversity and succeeding:

QUOTE
Glaswegian children top of UK 'grit scale'

Glaswegians are more likely to have determination, passion and perseverance as well as the skills needed to succeed, according to a new study.

Researchers have developed a "grit scale" to measure qualities such as working towards challenges and maintaining effort despite failure.

Glasgow was given a "grit score" of 3.16, Aberdeen came second, with 3.15, and Edinburgh joint 15th with 3.05. ...

Again, this raises the question why so many obviously very talented and motivated children in Glasgow are being let down by the city school system.

Full story here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15124979

GG.

Posted by: *jean* 10th Oct 2011, 09:01pm

I spent 5 enjoyable years at Govan HIgh in the 60's. I was an average student but came out of school with very little in the way of qualifications. I moved to Canada soon afterwards, started College as a mature student and after 4 years left with an Honours Diploma in Education. I taught for 20 years before retiring. I think in my case anyway, the teachers did their best but I did not apply myself, it was not til later I realized that if I wanted to acheive something , I had to work hard to get it.

Posted by: backcauseway 16th Jan 2012, 10:39pm

According to to-days Herald Drumchapel High appears to be the worst school in Scotland.
School 5 years old. Most of Drumchapel demolished and areas ie Stonedyke no longer classified as an area of multiple deprivation. Other areas now green spaces. Lots of nice new shiny houses.
So why is it at the bottom of the class? Millions have been poured in compared with Knightswood School. Yet Knightswood Sec gets better results. Drumchapel has been a Labour fiefdom for many years yet things dont seem to get any better at this school. I remember St Pius on this site and amazingly it had its own school swimming pool. New shiny school - no swimming pool. Was the introduction of comprehensive education the begining of the end for what was considered a good Scottish educational system? To-days Herald makes very depressing reading regarding Drumchapel High.

Posted by: GG 17th Jan 2012, 09:02am

Dave, I think it's fair to say that the Glasgow people are ourselves responsible for who gets into power. However, in our defence we should remember that in most elections in Glasgow, most of the people refuse to endorse anyone. Here's a table I made of voting percentages in the 2009 Glasgow North East by-election:

Anger/Abandonment/Apathy (ALL) (67.03%)
Willie Bain (Lab) (19.58%)
David Kerr (SNP) (6.59%)
Ruth Davidson (1.72%)
Charlie Baillie (BNP) (1.62%)
Tommy Sheridan (Solidarity) (1.27%)
Eileen Baxendale (LD) (0.76%)
David Doherty (Green) (0.53%)

As can be seen from the figures, the vast majority of Glaswegians simply do not vote – they have no confidence in the political process whatsoever. In terms of psychology, it's what's called a conditioned response: let people down often enough with false promises and poor performance, and eventually they learn to know what's coming!

GG.

Posted by: Scotsman 17th Jan 2012, 04:53pm

Its the same all over the city... hundreds of millions spent on demolishing and rebuilding perfectly good public schools and our kids still have the worst education in Britain!!

Posted by: GG 18th Jan 2012, 10:53pm

Evening Times, 15th December 2011:

QUOTE
Glasgow has slumped back to the bottom of the school exam league tables after rising from last place for the first time in 2010.

Last year pupils Higher exam results lifted Glasgow from the basement spot, closing the attainment gap between the city and the rest of Scotland. ... But this year Glasgow is back in last place with just 7% of pupils passing five or more Highers in fifth year compared to 12% nationally.

Evening Times, 18th January 2012: Education spokeswoman:
QUOTE
"[Glasgow's] schools are improving year on year in terms of our increase in pupils' outcomes and exam results and on raising attainment.

We have entered a new era of attainment and success in Glasgow and our plan is to build on this and continue to improve in all aspects of education services."

GG.

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 18th Jan 2012, 11:02pm

I guess when you're at the bottom, the only way is up!

Posted by: GG 18th Jan 2012, 11:27pm

smile.gif

I think I feel a song coming on...

GG.

Posted by: Melody 19th Jan 2012, 10:08am

laugh.gif Go for it Martin.

Posted by: Dunn Shtosius 20th Jan 2012, 02:17am

QUOTE (gedboy @ 26th Sep 2011, 09:07am) *
As a teacher in Glasgow perhaps I can add some experience to the debate.

Currently I am teaching in a North East Glasgow Secondary. It is easily the best school in which I have ever worked in my thirty years of paid employment. The success is down to many things, including:

1) Fantastic discipline from the Headteacher down: no homework, too much make-up or a poorly knotted tie are seen as only slightly less appalling than murder. This leaves me to get on with teaching. In other Glasgow schools I have utilised the psychological skills of a nightclub bouncer to get me through the day and done almost no teaching.

2) Supportive parents who clearly discipline their kids, telling them that schools and teachers are brilliant. The school clearly has very many poor pupils, as it takes in kids from five of the fifty poorest areas in Britain, including the poorest. However, the acceptance that the teacher is right is a principle I thought I would never see again in my working lifetime.

As a confirmed Socialist, I am firm in my understanding that poverty begets educational failure, though only to a point. I have suffered kids and parents who are aggressive in their rejection of education and do everything in their power every second of the day to prevent others learning. I have watched as kids pretended to be of low intelligence so they did not get battered. In doing so they sabotaged their own lives. However, for reasons which are not clear to me, nobody takes these parents to task.

I'm a good teacher, but I do not kid myself. Research suggests that my influence over the children is about 3%. The vast majority of attitudes and behaviours comes from parents and 'significant adults' in the family group. My kids love my lessons because they have been programmed to think teachers are great.

I could get a chicken with a limp through many exams, if only the kids do as I tell them, but this does not happen in most schools. With no home support I am dead in the water. People who don't teach possibly have a Mr Chips approach to teaching where the good teacher persuades the uninterested kid to shine. Wipe that from your mind right now.

I stupidly thought that if only I worked harder I could interest the kids and trust me, my lessons are often a hair's breadth away from cabaret. Boring I am not, but I had to admit defeat when I was puking up with stress before I went to school and then puking in the toilets before my first lesson/battle of the day.

One last comment: in the days of industry in Glasgow, the low ability kids would have ready made jobs requiring almost no written or mathematical skills in the factories of the East End. Those jobs are long gone. What do we now do with those children - who will not pass exams after their fifteenth birthdays no matter how hard they (and I) try? This is a debate that has not been started because there is an insane belief that you can keep on improving in every subject.

If only.

As an ex teacher I can sympathise with certain comments from the above. Mainly motivation. If the parents have no motivation in any direction or commitment to their kids education, then no matter the ability of the teacher, there will be no achievable outcomes. I had enviable discipline in my classes but to achieve a 20min. window of positive delivery in any period was a victory of high proportions. the class dynamics play a great part in the educational outcomes. I saw in my final weeks as a teacher, the teacher I regarded as the best in the school, have a failure rate of 57% of a class he had spoon fed the exam to over a month. They just did not care whether they passed or not. I also choose for ethical reasons to teach in the poorest of schools; the price paid was hardly worth it.

Posted by: backcauseway 21st Jan 2012, 05:06pm

The Evening Times should perhaps be renamed Glasgow Pravda. It seems full of Glasgow City Council publicity now. Mr Mathieson has something in it virtually every day. Despite millions being spent the truth is the results are not better as far as education is concerned. No matter what PR stuff the council come out with. Was the introduction of comprehensive education the start of the downward tend in Scottish education? Was The scrapping of the Allan Glens of this world another bad idea?

Posted by: essex guy 19th Jun 2012, 07:21am

I went to school in Calton and Easterhouse. They were never really interested in teaching us anything except to sit down and keep quite or else we would be belted. What way is that to treat children? Could have been so much better. And still looks like things are still much the same.

Posted by: Dexter St. Clair 23rd Jan 2013, 06:19pm

QUOTE
School is awarded 'outstanding' inspection report


St Andrew's, in Carntyne, Glasgow, which serves some of the poorest postcodes in the UK, such as Easterhouse, Cranhill, Ruchazie and Shettleston, was awarded three "excellent" ratings by inspectors and two "very goods".

It also serves a couple of almost affluent areas as well but all children and staff should be congratulated.

QUOTE
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/education/school-is-awarded-outstanding-inspection-report.19979834

Posted by: Dimairt 23rd Jan 2013, 06:27pm

QUOTE (Dexter St. Clair @ 23rd Jan 2013, 07:36pm) *
St Andrew's, in Carntyne, Glasgow, which serves some of the poorest postcodes in the UK, such as Easterhouse, Cranhill, Ruchazie and Shettleston, was awarded three "excellent" ratings by inspectors and two "very goods".

It also serves a couple of almost affluent areas as well but all children and staff should be congratulated.

I tried to post a link to this article yesterday, so will just agree with Dexter here. There are a lot of good news stories about Glasgow's schools, we just don't get to hear them.

Does that mean ignoring the bad ones? Of course not but let's celebrate St Andrew's achievment here and also that of Sgoil Ghaidhlig Ghlaschu, the Sports School at Bellahouston, the Dance School at Knightswood ...... add your own.

Durachdan,

Eddy

Posted by: Jimmyboy 24th Jan 2013, 09:24am

I went to school in St. Anthony's in Govan and St. Gerard's in the 50s. The teachers were second to none, except when it came to humanity and the education I received at St. Gerards was as sound as any in the U.K. The school however like all others fell to the degeneracy of political and social correctness and instead of qualifying to go to that establishment, and this includes all other secondary schools in Scotland, it became a 'comprehensive school" allowing all and sundry, getting right down to those who couldn't even read or write to a satisfactory level, becoming a no go area for learning. Where once working class kids from all areas of Glasgow once could have a shot at a top class education where the school uniform and badge were worn with pride, it became the school you would not send your kids any where near. Blame the pseudo socialist politicians and their leveling experiments that became total failures due to the fact that in intelligence there exists no equality that will lend itself to measurement, but only in opportunity to rise to highest level of achievement can equality exist.

Posted by: Dexter St. Clair 28th Jan 2013, 11:56pm

I thought St. Mungo's Academy creamed off the best pupils from all over Glasgow.

Posted by: Isobel 29th Jan 2013, 03:57am

Its very sad to read through these posts. I can remember in my primary school the head going to London to receive some sort of honour for having the highest number of children in Britain passing their 11 + in five consecutive years. I think her name was sister Loyola.Although the school was in Riddrie many kids attended from Dennistoun ,Ruchazie and Carntyne.The so called poor area's.Mind you back then we did have respect for teachers. Woo betide the kid who spoke in class.It was way to strict but it has gone far to much the other way.I find it really hard to believe the schools in Glasgow are the lowest in GB. Surely not.

Posted by: wee davy 29th Jan 2013, 05:24am

QUOTE (Dexter St. Clair @ 29th Jan 2013, 12:13am) *
I thought St. Mungo's Academy creamed off the best pupils from all over Glasgow.

Care to elucidate (in respect of the Topic context), Dexter (being a former pupil)?

Posted by: zascot 29th Jan 2013, 09:25am

QUOTE (Dexter St. Clair @ 29th Jan 2013, 01:13am) *
I thought St. Mungo's Academy creamed off the best pupils from all over Glasgow.

They got my older brother but they did`nt get me, which proves your thoughts wrong. wink.gif biggrin.gif

Posted by: Heather 29th Jan 2013, 11:48am

It's true that there is little respect for Teachers nowadays.
Just a few days ago I was telling my two g'daughters how strict Teachers were in my day, and we even got lines if we went to School not wearing our School uniform.

If my mum had heard that I was cheeky to a Teacher I would have got a cuff on the ear.
I know some Teachers in my day were really hard on children and I had one who should never have been allowed in a classroom, she was a monster Teaching in the Infant School.

My son' Primary Education was in Easterhouse and it never stopped him from going on to University as did many of his generation whose Primary and Secondary Education was in Easterhouse.
I know two girls born, bred and Educated in Easterhouse who are University Professors. Many more who became Teachers, Nurse's Accountants etc. So it's not always the Teachers to blame, some parents never bothered to teach their children respect.

Discipline should begin in the home, not the School.


Posted by: bilbo.s 29th Jan 2013, 12:31pm

Absolutely agree, Heather. I often worry about the correct translation of " in loco parentis". rolleyes.gif

Posted by: wee davy 29th Jan 2013, 12:35pm

lol I still remember that front page picture wi Frankie Vaghan helping the 'gangs' put awe their 'chibs' swords and the like, intae a big refuse bin.
(Awe rigged up for the Record/Times of course).
THAT wiz the Easterhoose ah recall.

Posted by: Doug1 29th Jan 2013, 12:48pm

A good strong headmaster with a good team of enthusiastic teachers is the main key to a well motivated and successful school but without the backing and support of parents the job will be far more difficult. Good parents should help educating their kids from the earliest possible age and should continue monitoring and helping them throughout their schooling. Unfortunately nowadays there are a lot of parents, or guardians, who just couldn't care less ie workless parents often end up with workless children

Posted by: CAT 29th Jan 2013, 01:17pm

QUOTE (Dexter St. Clair @ 23rd Jan 2013, 06:36pm) *
St Andrew's, in Carntyne, Glasgow, which serves some of the poorest postcodes in the UK, such as Easterhouse, Cranhill, Ruchazie and Shettleston, was awarded three "excellent" ratings by inspectors and two "very goods".

It also serves a couple of almost affluent areas as well but all children and staff should be congratulated.

All 3 of my children were educated at St Andrews and I can say the school has a very strong attitude to discipline and encouragement of the children to take responsibility for their education and achievements. They have a no nonsense approach whilst being encouraging and nurturing, helping pupils to attain the level of exams which is achievable for them giving each child a chance of success.

As with all schools there are good and bad teachers but the leadership at this school is very strong. They have always been strict on uniform and appearance giving the pupils pride in themselves no matter ability. The children all wear blazers shirts and ties at all times making sure the poorer children are not dressed any differently from their more affluent peers. Whilst clothes do not make anyone more intelligent, the uniform makes every one feel the same.

Posted by: Gemini 29th Jan 2013, 01:36pm

Isobel ref your post #222 I think you are referring to St Thomas's in Riddrie. I went to that school. Sister Loyola was in charge of the older students and sister Ignatius was in charge of the younger ones, and I would say as far I can remember all the teachers I had were really dedicated to teaching regardless of where you were from.

Posted by: Ossie 29th Jan 2013, 03:05pm

Such an overwhelming sadness courses through me when reading the various comments on this thread . Not because I disagree with them, they are, for the most part, valid .

My own education, or lack of it , ( nobody's fault but my own ) instilled in me a determination to try as best as I could to make sure my two daughters achieved their full potential in life . I feel my wife and myself are entitled to a degree of contentment in this regard . Both my daughters went to Glasgow University , one is now a doctor , ( consultant) and the other active in public life.

However, for me there is another aspect to education, perhaps every bit as important as having the potential to sustain a level of financial stability . I've met many obviously intelligent folk who display a certain frustration which in some cases manifests itself in unacceptable behaviour .

Guess what I'm trying to say is that a decent level of education, at least should, lead to us being more contented in later life.

To get back on topic. It can't be the case that Glasgow kids lack something which kids from other areas possess . If it's true to say we're all the product of our environment, then perhaps therein lies the the answer to this very vexing problem.

Ossie.

Posted by: Heather 29th Jan 2013, 04:03pm

Wee Davy, your right about Frankie Vaughan.

We lived in Easterhouse at that time and most of the so called weapons handed in were found lying about building sites, or made from scrap just so the few gangs that actually existed could get themselves on TV.
A lot of the Easterhouse people blamed Frankie for getting Easterhouse a bad name which at that time it did not deserve.

Nothing was ever said about the good teenagers who led by one of the Priests from St. Clare's, went round the scheme painting and decorating pensioners house. The pensioners provided the paper & paint, but the work was done for free.
Other's went away Hill Climbing or playing in the Football Teams Youth Club, winning many trophy's.

My husband and I were both Youth Leaders, so we knew many decent teenagers who out numbered the bad one's.

I don't know about now as we moved from Easterhouse about 40 years ago, but like most Housing Scheme's, it has more good people living there than bad one's.

Posted by: Ossie 29th Jan 2013, 04:14pm

QUOTE (Heather @ 29th Jan 2013, 04:20pm) *
Wee Davy, your right about Frankie Vaughan.

We lived in Easterhouse at that time and most of the so called weapons handed in were found lying about building sites, or made from scrap just so the few gangs that actually existed could get themselves on TV.
A lot of the Easterhouse people blamed Frankie for getting Easterhouse a bad name which at that time it did not deserve.

Nothing was ever said about the good teenagers who led by one of the Priests from St. Clare's, went round the scheme painting and decorating pensioners house. The pensioners provided the paper & paint, but the work was done for free.
Other's went away Hill Climbing or playing in the Football Teams Youth Club, winning many trophy's.

My husband and I were both Youth Leaders, so we knew many decent teenagers who out numbered the bad one's.

I don't know about now as we moved from Easterhouse about 40 years ago, but like most Housing Scheme's, it has more good people living there than bad one's.

I'm in Easterhouse fairly regularly Heather. I have to agree with you , the vast majority of folk are terrific . They go about their lives in a fairly unabtrusive manner . Hence the fact that we tend only to notice those who seek attention for the wrong reasons.

Ossie.

Posted by: Ossie 29th Jan 2013, 05:05pm

QUOTE (Ossie @ 29th Jan 2013, 04:31pm) *
I'm in Easterhouse fairly regularly Heather. I have to agree with you , the vast majority of folk are terrific . They go about their lives in a fairly unobtrusive manner . Hence the fact that we tend only to notice those who seek attention for the wrong reasons.

Ossie.

Forgot to say, there are lots of new houses too . The place looks very smart.