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Glasgow Boards/Forums _ Glasgow News Blog _ Is The Union Already Lost?

Posted by: GG 1st Jan 2014, 05:01pm

Despite what appears to be a reasonable lead in opinion polls, it is increasingly clear that major figures within the parties represented by the pro-union campaign are becoming nervous about the result Scottish independence referendum on 18 September 2014.

In a front page article in this week's Sunday Times, under the headline 'Tories fear Scots will break away', senior Conservative figures north and south of the border voiced concerns that the anti-independence group Better Together was "too negative and lacked momentum". David Cameron's own election guru, Lynton Crosby, is mentioned in the article as saying that the Better Together is "so feeble that the future of the UK is in doubt", and the expert voting forecaster made the unexpected prediction that an SNP victory was "not only possible but likely".

The article also mentioned Scottish secretary Alistair Carmichael and Boris Johnson, the London mayor, who are among a group of senior Tories who believe that many undecided voters may be swayed by lingering antipathy towards the Thatcher government's destruction of heavy industry in Scotland, leading wavering voters to choose 'Yes' in the referendum.

The increasingly outspoken condemnation of Better Together's pro-union strategy is also fuelling tensions in the cross-party group, with much of the focus of resentment coming to rest on the Better Together leadership of Alistair Darling. The former Labour chancellor has opted for a strategy based on highlighting the alleged economic and financial risks of separation; however, many commentators now assess the strategy – dubbed 'Project Fear' – as damaging to the unionist cause, at the same time isolating large swathes of voters who see the message as predominantly anti-Scottish.

The Sunday Times article also cited a poll this month which suggested that the pro-independence Yes Scotland campaign is closing the gap in the race for referendum votes, cutting the 'No' lead from 19% to 14%, while a recent poll for the newspaper put the 'No' lead at just nine points.

In a related article last week, a leaked advertising agency report commissioned by Better Together has suggested that the unionist group needs to move swiftly away from its damagingly negative strategy. The major London-based agency highlighted one prominent danger of the negative campaign being that voters might associate a 'No' vote with saying 'No' to Scotland.

What do you think: is the Union already lost? Or is the Better Together lead now largely unassailable with nine months to go?

GG.

Posted by: GG 1st Jan 2014, 05:15pm

Just posting a reply to check this topic. Unfortunately, it had to be recovered as it was corrupted and had to be reposted as new.

Apologies to those who had replied! sad.gif

GG.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 1st Jan 2014, 05:36pm

Happy Birthday Martin ( ) biggrin.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 1st Jan 2014, 05:44pm

I just hope they keep doing what they are doing.

If you were in a dead end job and the opportunity came along for a different job with more room to better yourself, would you consider it? How about if you then went to your boss and explained your situation but instead of reassuring you things will get better, in fact told you things would get worse and how you would never make it in the other job, pointing out all your failing and threatening to give bad references making life as difficult as he could if you left. I gotta ask would you take it, would you walk back to your desk with your head low and tell yourself how right he is and what a failure your are?
That is exactly what is happening with our nation, and the worse thing is 'the boss' has the 'grasses' within the workforce to keep that drip drip of negativity coming.

As the saying goes you are what you settle for, and if you settle for a 2nd class citizen of the world then dont be surprised when you get treated as one.

Posted by: Dylan 1st Jan 2014, 05:51pm

We Scots are not and will never be second class Citizens.!

Posted by: bilbo.s 1st Jan 2014, 05:51pm

Good analogy, John. Eagerly awaiting the response of the NO camp.

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 1st Jan 2014, 05:52pm

QUOTE (GG @ 1st Jan 2014, 05:18pm) *
... The article also mentioned Scottish secretary Alistair Carmichael and Boris Johnson, the London mayor, who are among a group of senior Tories who believe that many undecided voters may be swayed by lingering antipathy towards the Thatcher government's destruction of heavy industry in Scotland, leading wavering voters to choose 'Yes' in the referendum.


And why not? Isn`t that good reason enough? What was the excuse for such whimsical behaviour, anyway? A self-indulgent economic-social-cultural experiment inflicted by the-then vain glorious leader herself. A "show of power". Cracking the whip for the sake of it to show who`s the boss. And let us not forget its` ultimate inevitable culmination... deploying the police as a pseudo-military force against striking miners. Working class n*gger, know thy place, right enough.

Everything we`ve endured for the last 34 years has all been the legacy of one action. And one action alone. Our decision to hide up the back of the couch last time round in 79. Everything inflicted upon us since has been a "gratuity" from our High & Mighty Southern Masters for staying put in their Empire -- sorry -- Union. (Whoops! Forgot, they don`t have an Empire no more!).

Anyone really eager to make the same short-sighted kamikaze mistake again?

yes.gif yes.gif yes.gif

Posted by: Dylan 1st Jan 2014, 06:02pm

The Politics of Nationalism. !

Elitist who consider them selves cleverer than anyone who disagrees.!

Posted by: rumcdonald 1st Jan 2014, 06:21pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 1st Jan 2014, 01:08pm) *
We Scots are not and will never be second class Citizens.!


The Scots went out into the world and made it what it is. Look at all they have achieved! The Union needs them. Stronger together. Better together.

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 1st Jan 2014, 06:37pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 1st Jan 2014, 06:19pm) *
The Politics of Nationalism. !

Elitist who consider them selves cleverer than anyone who disagrees.!


I believe Nationalists, by their very nature, will be voting for independence. Buy yourself a dictionary in the January sales and see what I mean.

Sorry to wee on you again but.... the British themselves are/were very fanatical about nationalism. Grotesqueified it into a brutal global Empire, if I recall correctly. Check it out in an (ancient) history book. If you can find one. Though it will probably be a decrepit old mouldy rag like The Dead Sea Scrolls. Those bloated faded sepia pink blobs are what USED TO BE The British Empire. But, alas, no more! Or a hop into a De Lorean and put that pedal-to-the-metal! Relive the dream!!

The only political "elite" in Britain I am aware of are the self-appointed bloodsucking South East England parasites-by-birth who gorge themselves and their kin through the class system and our oil. And, of course, the Labour scabs who sold out and joined them. Which, of course, brings us up to speed on where we now stand viz-a-viz the referendum. And how it will, as we can now begin to smell, now turn out.

What a great day! 2014 at last! You can almost hear the clock counting down to the end of THEIR Union. Like it did with their Empire...
thumbup.gif thumbup.gif thumbup.gif

Posted by: red rooster 1st Jan 2014, 06:42pm

Seems to me that both sides are as bad as each other the no campaign with their fear campaign and the yes campaign who see Independance as a panacea for all ills.

I think the situation was best summed up by Rab C on the Hogmanay show last night - "2014 will be the year the great Scottish people will decide if they are to be shafted by Westminster or Holyrood"

Many a true word spoken in jest.

Posted by: john.mcn 1st Jan 2014, 06:47pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 1st Jan 2014, 06:08pm) *
We Scots are not and will never be second class Citizens.!


C'mon Dylan stop with the cutting i said 2nd class citizen of the world and you know it, with no voice in the world, no seat at the UN where the people WE vote for can discuss or debate the issues affecting the world, that is exactly what we are.
When Scots have done so much for mankind and the world why on earth do you oppose it having the same standing in the world as say San Marino, who with a population of less than Irvine has both a seat at the United Nations and the Council of Europe?

Posted by: Guest 1st Jan 2014, 06:49pm

I'll be voting no, All Alex Salmond wants is to be a big fish in a small pond instead of a small fish in a large Loch. He doesn't care about us or Scotland.

Posted by: john.mcn 1st Jan 2014, 06:50pm

QUOTE (red rooster @ 1st Jan 2014, 06:59pm) *
I think the situation was best summed up by Rab C on the Hogmanay show last night - "2014 will be the year the great Scottish people will decide if they are to be shafted by Westminster or Holyrood"

Many a true word spoken in jest.


And guess which one Scots, by themselves, can vote out of office?

Posted by: red rooster 1st Jan 2014, 06:59pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 1st Jan 2014, 07:07pm) *
And guess which one Scots, by themselves, can vote out of office?


The devil we know?

Posted by: Dylan 1st Jan 2014, 07:29pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 1st Jan 2014, 06:19pm) *
The Politics of Nationalism. !

Elitist who consider them selves cleverer than anyone who disagrees.!


I think the subsequent Posts have somewhat proved my point. rolleyes.gif biggrin.gif

To think they want to run Scotland under King Eck .!!!

Posted by: Dylan 1st Jan 2014, 07:31pm

QUOTE (red rooster @ 1st Jan 2014, 06:59pm) *
Seems to me that both sides are as bad as each other the no campaign with their fear campaign and the yes campaign who see Independance as a panacea for all ills.

I think the situation was best summed up by Rab C on the Hogmanay show last night - "2014 will be the year the great Scottish people will decide if they are to be shafted by Westminster or Holyrood"

Many a true word spoken in jest.


Where Rab C is concerned,should it not be " Many a true word spoken in vest " ?

Posted by: bilbo.s 1st Jan 2014, 07:34pm

First good comment from Dylan. Well done ! tongue.gif

Posted by: wombat 1st Jan 2014, 07:40pm

tongue.gif or is he "stringin"' us along rolleyes.gif

Posted by: DavidT 1st Jan 2014, 08:01pm

Completely off topic, but I particularly enjoyed the music in these videos.
Back on topic...I liked the Rab C Nesbit quote whether it be in jest or in vest laugh.gif it has a ring of truth about it.
John mcn. Spot on with your job analogy.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 1st Jan 2014, 08:10pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 1st Jan 2014, 07:46pm) *
To think they want to run Scotland under King Eck .!!!


Of course you want King Dave to rule over us until he abdicates in favour of King Boris laugh.gif

Posted by: wombat 1st Jan 2014, 08:16pm

cool.gif

 

Posted by: JAGZ1876 1st Jan 2014, 08:16pm

QUOTE (rumcdonald @ 1st Jan 2014, 06:38pm) *
The Scots went out into the world and made it what it is. Look at all they have achieved! The Union needs them. Stronger together. Better together.


I think you will find most Scots went out into the World because the Union did not want them, what they achieved was in spite of the Union not because of it.

And Dylan, one of many examples of Scots being treated as second class being the Highland clearances, sheep before people.

Stronger together. Better together............You're having a laugh.

Posted by: *Russ* 1st Jan 2014, 08:40pm

Why do we want independence?
Well for me personally, I can see no other way to get the tories out of Scotland forever. As was stated in previous posts we are 2nd class citizens to the South of England.
I know there will be problems if we get independence...but it is not uncommon now to have a new country/state come into being.
WE WOULD BE A GREAT NATION

Posted by: eidas 1st Jan 2014, 08:41pm

Reading comments from family and friends in Scotland, I would ascertain the union is already lost.
Having said that, folks seem to change their mind a number of times when it comes to referendums. The strength of the campaign on the young electors will play a large part and young minds need good, true information. I say bring on that information sooner rather than later.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 1st Jan 2014, 09:04pm

QUOTE (eidas @ 1st Jan 2014, 08:58pm) *
I say bring on that information sooner rather than later.


I agree with what you say eidas, but the YES campaign has produced all the information anyone could want, i can't think of anything more they could provide, it is time that the Tory funded NO campaign came out with information as to their vision of the future for Scotland after a NO vote, how much will income tax rise, how much will the Barnett formula be cut or will it be scrapped altogether, will a Tory/UKIP coalition mean the scrapping of Holyrood, will i have to work until i'm 69, will our armed services be reduced even more? etc etc.

As you say, we need this information sooner rather than later if we are to make an informed decision.

Posted by: Dylan 1st Jan 2014, 10:14pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 1st Jan 2014, 08:33pm) *
I think you will find most Scots went out into the World because the Union did not want them, what they achieved was in spite of the Union not because of it.

And Dylan, one of many examples of Scots being treated as second class being the Highland clearances, sheep before people.

Stronger together. Better together............You're having a laugh.


They were thrown off by fellow Scots Landlords who were every bit as bad as the English ones.!


Greed and self interest know no boundaries.

The Internationale unites the human race.!

Not Nationalism which is divisive.!

Posted by: JAGZ1876 1st Jan 2014, 10:46pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 1st Jan 2014, 10:31pm) *
They were thrown off by fellow Scots Landlords who were every bit as bad as the English ones.!


Greed and self interest know no boundaries.

The Internationale unites the human race.!

Not Nationalism which is divisive.!


Dylan, i did not say anything about English landlords, i was saying that those who were forced out of their homes to move abroad to seek their fortune were victims of the union, and yes, i know there were Scots landlords who profited from the union and still are, although nowadays their known as Tories.

And it is because i am an Internationalist that i want to see my country recognised in it's own right in the World, joining the great community of independent nations, not as some small region of Greater England or Britain.

Posted by: john.mcn 1st Jan 2014, 10:50pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 1st Jan 2014, 10:31pm) *
The Internationale unites the human race.!


Wether we want it or not eh?

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 1st Jan 2014, 11:27pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 2nd Jan 2014, 12:03am) *
Dylan ... I want to see my country recognised in it's own right in the World, joining the great community of independent nations, not as some small region of Greater England or Britain.

This, alone, should be reason enough for the great majority of Scottish folk to finally right the wrong that took place all those years ago when Scotland's heritage was sold for a bowl of pottage.
I'm not one who likes to see divides in nations; as in the well known North/Souths and East/Wests which we are all aquainted with, and I certainly favour re-unity when this happens but Scotland was a Nation unto itself and should be returned to the people of Scotland as such.
We saw; and still see, the clamour for independant recognition of sovereign states which took place after the fall of the Soviet Union, which Union was anything but soviet.
Scotland should heed the opportunity; no grasp it, to be a Nation once again.

On the down side rolleyes.gif she'll still have lying, cheating, corrupt, dodgy, self-centered politicians ...
... but they'll be her own thumbup.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: *Gordon* 2nd Jan 2014, 12:26am

Scottish-born and brought up, I am now an Australian and unsure how much my vote, albeit notional, can count.

As a kid we were always sensitive to the perceived snobberies from the south of England and longed for a separate nation. Added to that were the clear cruelties and criminal events of history. Nowadays, I am unsure whether separation may be good or bad for Scotland's future. My earlier sentiments, from the heart, support independence, yet I really can't see a totally separate nation, remaining immune from the stupidities and tyranny of the EU and the so-called Human Rights charlatans in Strasbourg.

My mind tells me that a united Britain is probably a better pragmatic choice given so many social and fiscal changes that may or may not ever be likely. Immigration is a major problem for the UK as I see it, with unwanted hundreds of thousands baying to get in and grab their slice of the apple pie to the detriment of the deserving Brits who have worked for their share.

So, by staying with England Scotland may just become a victim of uncontrolled chaotic immigration. But that may happen anyway if we can't defend that thin frontier between the two countries.

So, for what it's worth, that's where I would stand. Good luck in whatever you all choose.

Posted by: farrochie 2nd Jan 2014, 09:30am

Scotland has a vast amount of resources and talented people to develop our country. We have fishing, aquaculture, crops, livestock, food, drinks, world class and unique distilling, brewing, financial services, banking, tourism, education, research, IT software, engineering, construction, shipping, avionics, energy, hydroelectricity & renewables, coal, oil & gas and lots of water!

But Westminster takes ALL the tax revenues from these resources. Corporation tax, VAT, income tax, NICs, alcohol/tobacco/fuel duty, road fund - everything. Then they give us back a lump sum grant, decided by the Barnett Formula. But Westminster makes all our big decisions for us, all the "reserved matters", 16 pages of reserved matters. And Westminster "allows" us to make decisions health, education and justice, and a few other matters.

Scotland is mature enough to collect taxes, decide priorities and make decisions on behalf of Scotland. Westminster will never put Scotland's interests first. And don't believe they spread the risk and reward over the whole UK. All London-based parties deliver what's best for their main constituency, middle England (their words).

It is time that Scotland took decision making back from Westminster into our own hands. We can elect Scottish governments that are not beholden to the interests of London & the south-east of England.

Happy New Year!

Posted by: Heather 2nd Jan 2014, 09:43am

Well said Farrochie.

When we get our Independence we may well have a few problems at first, but Rome wasn't built in a day, and in time Scotland will sort itself out.

We have heard for years how Scotland is subsidised by the English, if that is true, why are they so anxious to hang on to us.

Scotland gets whatever Government England votes for, so lets take our future into our own hands.

Bought and sold for English gold. angry.gif

Posted by: amclpreston 2nd Jan 2014, 09:59am

QUOTE (red rooster @ 1st Jan 2014, 06:59pm) *
Seems to me that both sides are as bad as each other the no campaign with their fear campaign and the yes campaign who see Independance as a panacea for all ills.

I think the situation was best summed up by Rab C on the Hogmanay show last night - "2014 will be the year the great Scottish people will decide if they are to be shafted by Westminster or Holyrood"

Many a true word spoken in jest.


I may laugh with Rab C. But at root I don't share his cynicism.

What took you to Kuching, in Sarawak? I worked, and lived for several years in Brunei.
How I got there was because I was single, quite adventurous, and took certain opportunities that presented themselves.

However, not everyone wants to be in a country where out of 17 native species of snake, only 16 are poisonous.

For me, an independent Scotland offers aspiration, hope and change. Not a panacea for all difficulties.

I was just thinking, a moment ago, about Donald Dewar. He worked hard to bring about devolution for Scotland. He didn't live to be an old man. Must have been ageing for him to have to try to overcome the deadbeat attitudes within his own party.

And that, I believe, is what this is really about. The Union is really about London, and Westminster.

Time for a parting of the ways. A friendly one. Of mutual co-operation.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 2nd Jan 2014, 10:25am

QUOTE (amclpreston @ 2nd Jan 2014, 10:16am) *
Time for a parting of the ways. A friendly one. Of mutual co-operation.



Hear hear thumbup.gif

It's interesting to note that although only 10% have taken part in the new GG poll so far than the original poll, the share of the YES/NO vote is almost identical, which makes me think this is more accurate than the professional ones which are paid for by the YES and NO campaigns.

Posted by: Dylan 2nd Jan 2014, 10:54am

As this is a SNP Board, it is no surprise that every Poll returns the same result , which is contrary to those conducted in the real world.???

2014, I predict many new members who will match one of the following profiles.

a. "Haven't made my mind up" day 1. Day 2 converted to Yes Vote.!

b. Ready made SNP foot soldier acting under orders from King Eck. !!

See if I'm right. laugh.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 2nd Jan 2014, 11:01am

Brilliant post, Farrochie, although perhaps I should not comment for fear of offending those who would deny expression of opinion to expats such as me. I do not know whether that attitude applies even to expats who agree with them on the independence issue, but I suspect, from some remarks, that we are all to be tarred with the same brush as traitors who have deserted the homeland. As a UK pensioner with close family in Scotland, I reserve the right to have my say, as the issue most definitely affects me personally. I do not however whinge about not having a vote, but accept the decision.

The mention of sour grapes gave me a rueful laugh ! Talk about transference !

Posted by: Betsy2009 2nd Jan 2014, 11:09am

I wonder if it would be possible for a new government to ring fence the monies collected, e.g. road tax is for roads, NI is for the NHS, etc, instead of it seemingly going into one big pot to be spent on all and sundry, including MP's expenses? In other words, better housekeeping.

Posted by: farrochie 2nd Jan 2014, 11:15am

QUOTE (Dylan @ 2nd Jan 2014, 11:11am) *
As this is a SNP Board, it is no surprise that every Poll returns the same result , which is contrary to those conducted
in the real world.???


2014, I predict many new members who will match one of the following profiles.

a) " Haven't made my mind up" day 1. Day 2 converted to Yes Vote.!

b)Ready made SNP foot soldier acting under orders from King Eck. !!


See if I'm right. laugh.gif


Take some time to imagine if this referendum had been called by say, the Labour Party. Imagine that the Labour Party in Scotland had gone back to its roots and decided it wanted an independent Scotland. Imagine if it was supported by the party of "Home Rule", the Liberal Democrats.

Now think about how you might vote if these parties were telling you that Scotland should run its own affairs.

This is not about the SNP! It is about the people of Scotland, and how we wish our decisions to be made. You have a simple choice, we can have a say at Westminster and a grant to run the bits that Westminster decides, or we can have the full powers that every other country has.

Posted by: Dylan 2nd Jan 2014, 11:20am

Naw, it's about the SNP !!

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 2nd Jan 2014, 11:26am) *
I wonder if it would be possible for a new government to ring fence the monies collected, e.g. road tax is for roads, NI is for the NHS, etc, instead of it seemingly going into one big pot to be spent on all and sundry, including MP's expenses? In other words, better housekeeping.




rolleyes.gif

Posted by: *Andrew* 2nd Jan 2014, 11:22am

QUOTE (Guest @ 1st Jan 2014, 07:06pm) *
I'll be voting no, All Alex Salmond wants is to be a big fish in a small pond instead of a small fish in a large Loch. He doesn't care about us or Scotland.


This issue will affect all our grandchildren. To base your vote on the merits or otherwise of one 59-year-old individual is totally nonsensical.

Posted by: john.mcn 2nd Jan 2014, 11:37am

QUOTE (Dylan @ 2nd Jan 2014, 11:11am) *
As this is a SNP Board, it is no surprise that every Poll returns the same result , which is contrary to those conducted
in the real world.???


Like your bowling club tongue.gif


All the vested interests can bleat about how accurate their (real world)polls are, which of course they are, for the people they ask. They are selling a service after all and mugs will gladly pay for it, but lets get right down to what these (real world) polls are, they are asking people in the hundreds and taking that figure and adding some algorithms, a wee squiggle here and there all to make it look like smart people have done it and somehow taking those hundreds and turning them into millions.. Surely a feat worthy of the tag miracle, i mean they say some dude fed a lot of people with a couple slice of bread and fish fingers but this...this, give these guys a kit kat and the whole world could take a break.. amazing stuff indeed.
Seriously though, snake oil salesman didn't go the way of the bison, they just adapted, it used to be sure bet horse racing programs, then pools predictor, then lottery and now it seems they conduct polls of a few passers by and tell us this is how 'we' are all thinking.. They say fools and their money are easily separated, and we know how foolish politicians can be.

This is a fun poll and as accurate as all the others out there, thats to say not very when we are talking about the whole population.

Posted by: Dylan 2nd Jan 2014, 11:39am

Do you take drugs. ? laugh.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 2nd Jan 2014, 11:43am

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 2nd Jan 2014, 11:26am) *
I wonder if it would be possible for a new government to ring fence the monies collected, e.g. road tax is for roads, NI is for the NHS, etc, instead of it seemingly going into one big pot to be spent on all and sundry, including MP's expenses? In other words, better housekeeping.



No such thing as road tax, it is vehicle excise duty, thats how they get away with the state of the roads as they are.

Posted by: farrochie 2nd Jan 2014, 11:47am

QUOTE (Dylan @ 2nd Jan 2014, 11:56am) *
Do you take drugs. ? laugh.gif


Remember, Dylan, that when give the opportunity Scots voted overwhelmingly to have our own parliament as follows:

Agree:1,775,045 (74.3%)
Disagree : 614,400 (25.7%)

Why is it you think that Scotland is better served by Westminster with 1 Tory and 11 LibDems representing us in government?

Posted by: john.mcn 2nd Jan 2014, 11:52am

Dylan thinks we should have less say than san marino, and he asks if i'm on drugs!!!

If he isn't then he should be biggrin.gif

Posted by: Dylan 2nd Jan 2014, 12:01pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 2nd Jan 2014, 12:00pm) *
No such thing as road tax, it is vehicle excise duty, thats how they get away with the state of the roads as they are.


That is how all Governments work, do you think the SNP would act any different.

Tax is collected and distributed as the Govt. of the day see fit.

I would prefer a fairer distribution .

I'm away for a wee Coke, the Cola kind you understand. tongue.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 2nd Jan 2014, 12:06pm

Did I say anything about the SNP? You are totally obsessed with them!

BTW you should try snorting the coke up your nose, come back and tell us how good it was biggrin.gif

Posted by: Dylan 2nd Jan 2014, 12:45pm

Coked up but can cut my nose. !!

Posted by: red rooster 2nd Jan 2014, 12:48pm

QUOTE (amclpreston @ 2nd Jan 2014, 10:16am) *
I may laugh with Rab C. But at root I don't share his cynicism.

What took you to Kuching, in Sarawak? I worked, and lived for several years in Brunei.
How I got there was because I was single, quite adventurous, and took certain opportunities that presented themselves.

However, not everyone wants to be in a country where out of 17 native species of snake, only 16 are poisonous.


So you were single adventurous and scared of snakes!

Posted by: farrochie 2nd Jan 2014, 01:27pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 2nd Jan 2014, 12:00pm) *
No such thing as road tax, it is vehicle excise duty, thats how they get away with the state of the roads as they are.


"road tax" is just old shorthand. Interestingly, you either need a "tax" disc or complete an "off road" notification. Just done my motorbike SORN smile.gif

Posted by: Betsy2009 2nd Jan 2014, 02:51pm

Pedantic lot that you are.
You know I meant the tax disk but it seems that they're looking at doing away with even that now. It's all going to be computerised. Eek!
Sorry to hear about your motorbike, farrochie, or do you only drive off road?

Posted by: john.mcn 2nd Jan 2014, 03:30pm

It already is Betsy, police have number plate recognition and know if you are taxed, insured and MOT'ed. Mines didn't come in time last year, i phoned Swansea to let them know and they said it was fine to still drive as i was on record as having paid as i did it through the website.

Posted by: farrochie 2nd Jan 2014, 04:14pm

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 2nd Jan 2014, 03:08pm) *
Pedantic lot that you are.
You know I meant the tax disk but it seems that they're looking at doing away with even that now. It's all going to be computerised. Eek!
Sorry to hear about your motorbike, farrochie, or do you only drive off road?


I never use it in the winter, so for the first time I thought I'd save some money by not taxing it over winter. Will do 6 months tax May - October.

Posted by: Betsy2009 2nd Jan 2014, 04:44pm

John, I mean they are doing away with the paper disks altogether soon.
Farrochie, good thinking Batman. Mind you it does make you a fair weather rider! Don't you want to ride in snowstorms and howling gales?
Anyway, I'm going way off subject so I'll shut up now.

Posted by: *Stephen* 2nd Jan 2014, 07:38pm

QUOTE (red rooster @ 1st Jan 2014, 06:59pm) *
Seems to me that both sides are as bad as each other the no campaign with their fear campaign and the yes campaign who see Independance as a panacea for all ills.

I think the situation was best summed up by Rab C on the Hogmanay show last night - "2014 will be the year the great Scottish people will decide if they are to be shafted by Westminster or Holyrood"

Many a true word spoken in jest.


I could not agree more what I really want is a vote on EU membership it's our membership of that morally bankrupt den of thieves that is destroying our nation.

As for an independent Scotland how long would it take for us to end up like Greece or Ireland if we allow the shortbread tin nationalists to take control of our nation.

It's time for real change vote UKIP all the rest have lied to us and sold us down the river time and time again.

Posted by: DavidT 2nd Jan 2014, 08:35pm

QUOTE (*Stephen* @ 2nd Jan 2014, 07:55pm) *
I could not agree more what I really want is a vote on EU membership it's our membership of that morally bankrupt den of thieves that is destroying our nation.

As for an independent Scotland how long would it take for us to end up like Greece or Ireland if we allow the shortbread tin nationalists to take control of our nation.

It's time for real change vote UKIP all the rest have lied to us and sold us down the river time and time again.


Good insult Stephen. tongue.gif Must have taken ages to think of that shortbread quip. UKIP? Away and raffle.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 2nd Jan 2014, 09:13pm

QUOTE (*Stephen* @ 2nd Jan 2014, 07:55pm) *
I could not agree more what I really want is a vote on EU membership it's our membership of that morally bankrupt den of thieves that is destroying our nation.

As for an independent Scotland how long would it take for us to end up like Greece or Ireland if we allow the shortbread tin nationalists to take control of our nation.

It's time for real change vote UKIP all the rest have lied to us and sold us down the river time and time again.


Yet you don't seem to have a problem promoting our continued membership of that not just morally, but financially bankrupt den of thieves that is destroying our nation called Westminster Stephen.

An independent Scotland would not end up like Greece, why would it?

For example Scotland's economy is much broader based and stronger than Greece's, if we are to compare an independent Scotland to similar sized European countries then Denmark, Finland, or Sweden would be more accurate examples.

It has also escaped your notice that Ireland's economy has recovered quicker and is outstripping the UK's, and as for your slur about "shortbread tin nationalists to take control of our nation", had you even bothered to do a quick check before opening your mouth you would have realised that the Scottish economy has grown quicker and is stronger than the UK's due to the skill of John Swinney balancing the books and protecting the people of Scotland from the ravages of Tory cuts and George Osborne's calamitous mismanagement that see's the UK debt spiral to over £1.5 Trillion and growing at an astonishing rate of over £5,000 per second. http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/

Yes, Westminster have lied to us and sold us down the river time and time again.

Time for change.

Vote YES in 258 days thumbup.gif

Posted by: wombat 2nd Jan 2014, 10:36pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 2nd Jan 2014, 02:02pm) *
Coked up but can cut my nose. !!


use a straw man tongue.gif

 

Posted by: bilbo.s 2nd Jan 2014, 10:39pm

QUOTE (wombat @ 2nd Jan 2014, 11:53pm) *
use a straw man tongue.gif


He is a straw man, Wombat ! cool.gif

Posted by: wombat 2nd Jan 2014, 10:41pm

tongue.gif

 

Posted by: bilbo.s 2nd Jan 2014, 10:42pm

QUOTE (wombat @ 2nd Jan 2014, 11:58pm) *
tongue.gif


Same as you-know-who then ! laugh.gif

Posted by: wombat 2nd Jan 2014, 10:47pm

tongue.gif

 

Posted by: guvim Jimm 2nd Jan 2014, 11:54pm

QUOTE (rumcdonald @ 1st Jan 2014, 06:38pm) *
The Scots went out into the world and made it what it is. Look at all they have achieved! The Union needs them. Stronger together. Better together.


The Union was imposed on Scotland by a "tyrant few" bribed for the better part by England's gold. The riots in the capital in disgust at this disenfranchisement lasted 3 days.

Posted by: john.mcn 3rd Jan 2014, 01:59am

Still waiting on an answer why some people think San marino has a voice in the world but Scotland shouldn't.
I even knocked this up to show the difference but i had to zoom right into San Marino because it looked like a speck, and it still does.

Any takers?



Posted by: bilbo.s 3rd Jan 2014, 08:35am

More skulduggery revealed:-

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/thatcher-made-secret-cuts-to-scottish-budget-1-3253890#.UsYCwBGd6hA.twitter

Posted by: JAGZ1876 3rd Jan 2014, 08:54am

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 3rd Jan 2014, 08:52am) *
More skulduggery revealed:-

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/thatcher-made-secret-cuts-to-scottish-budget-1-3253890#.UsYCwBGd6hA.twitter


Yet more evidence (if anymore were needed) of the lies Westminster has repeatedly told the people of Scotland, how much more evidence do some people need before they realise that Westminster will always put it's interests before Scotland's.

We don't need to wait another 30 years to know that they are still lying through their teeth to us today.

There is only one way to stop the liars in their tracks and we have the power to do it in one swift flick of a pen.

Vote YES IN 257 days thumbup.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 3rd Jan 2014, 08:56am

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 3rd Jan 2014, 02:16am) *
Still waiting on an answer why some people think San marino has a voice in the world but Scotland shouldn't.

Any takers?


Don't hold your breath John.

Posted by: Dylan 3rd Jan 2014, 10:02am

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 2nd Jan 2014, 10:56pm) *
He is a straw man, Wombat ! cool.gif



laugh.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 3rd Jan 2014, 12:30pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 3rd Jan 2014, 09:13am) *
Don't hold your breath John.


Yeah i learned that a lonnnnnng time ago. I made the map easy to read as well, i coloured in Scotland with our nations flag in case they forgot what it looked like, and i made sure the proportions were correct in regards to the rest of the UK, because as they believe everything in certain media they'll think Scotland is about the size of wales due it being shown that way in the weather/news

I suppose we'll just have to be content with the snipes and the demands for answers to ridiculous questions..

Posted by: Dylan 3rd Jan 2014, 01:40pm

Have you seen the Soldiers in San Marino ?

Wha dare mess wi them. ?

Good mapping.

Mrs. Dylan wants to know if you could do her one of Emerdale ?

Posted by: Nigel Noneck 3rd Jan 2014, 02:12pm

Anyone even considering voting yes has to be a) psychologically disturbed, b) a closet dodgy dresser or c) harbouring a deep-seated hatred of nothing and everything south of Carlisle. Salmond and his glamorous sidekick, Nicola Scaremongering Sturgeon, are determined, by any means possible, to shoe horn their way into Scottish history and they don’t give two Chihuahuas if it is economically viable for those living and working in Scotland or not.

These two fraudsters will do or say anything for your vote. Chase them.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 3rd Jan 2014, 03:08pm

Not a few politicos had something to hide 30 years ago rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
Thirty years ago, McCrone's conclusions shocked his political masters. An independent Scotland's Budget surpluses, wrote McCrone, would be so large as to be "embarrassing".


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/switzerland/news/article.cfm?l_id=100&objectid=10360042

Posted by: farrochie 3rd Jan 2014, 03:48pm

QUOTE (Nigel Noneck @ 3rd Jan 2014, 02:29pm) *
Anyone even considering voting yes has to be a) psychologically disturbed, b) a closet dodgy dresser or c) harbouring a deep-seated hatred of nothing and everything south of Carlisle. Salmond and his glamorous sidekick, Nicola Scaremongering Sturgeon, are determined, by any means possible, to shoe horn their way into Scottish history and they don’t give two Chihuahuas if it is economically viable for those living and working in Scotland or not.

These two fraudsters will do or say anything for your vote. Chase them.


You have been lied to by Westminster for so long that you might be surprised by the truth.

The only thing that we don't like south of Carlisle is the lying, cheating, expenses addicts in the House of Commons, and the likewise well-fed, well-paid, ermine clad Lords, who are making Scotland's decisions while ensuring that all benefits go to London and the south east.

Posted by: bilbo.s 3rd Jan 2014, 05:01pm

QUOTE (Nigel Noneck @ 3rd Jan 2014, 03:29pm) *
Anyone even considering voting yes has to be a) psychologically disturbed, cool.gif a closet dodgy dresser or c) harbouring a deep-seated hatred of nothing and everything south of Carlisle. Salmond and his glamorous sidekick, Nicola Scaremongering Sturgeon, are determined, by any means possible, to shoe horn their way into Scottish history and they don’t give two Chihuahuas if it is economically viable for those living and working in Scotland or not.

These two fraudsters will do or say anything for your vote. Chase them.


This is what is really scary, the quality of argument lined up against independence. My confidence is shaken and my resolve wavers, in the face of such an onslaught of reason. I see now where I have possibly been wrong.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 3rd Jan 2014, 05:34pm

Farrochie, Bilbo, stop rising to it, the guy's a wind up merchant............Nigel Noneck.....Nigel Brassneck more like laugh.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 3rd Jan 2014, 05:41pm

A wind-up merchant, you say ? Surely not yet another one ? The sincerity of his tone had me fooled , and I was seduced by the force of his logic and entranced by his passion. laugh.gif Has Dylan summoned up a big gun from his bowling club or the Horseshoe perchance? Heaven help us all !

Posted by: Dylan 3rd Jan 2014, 06:25pm

I was with NN till he called Nicola " Glamorous ".!

Regular customer of Horseshoe where clientele and staff, are for the most, "No" voters . !

However hate Bowling and Bowling Clubs which are for auld folks.


Posted by: bilbo.s 3rd Jan 2014, 06:44pm

"However hate Bowling and Bowling Clubs which are for auld folks."

Apologies for the bowling reference. I was of course thinking of your auld comrade-in-arms, the sadly missed Mr Mathieson. Understandable confusion, you will surely allow.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 3rd Jan 2014, 06:52pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 3rd Jan 2014, 06:42pm) *
I was with NN till he called Nicola " Glamorous ".!


Yes, even i wouldn't go that far. laugh.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 3rd Jan 2014, 06:55pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 3rd Jan 2014, 07:01pm) *
Apologies for the bowling reference. I was of course thinking of your auld comrade-in-arms, the sadly missed Mr Mathieson.


Yes the board hasn't been the same since The Prof hung up his Bowler tongue.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 3rd Jan 2014, 07:08pm

A fine piece of subtle ambiguity, Mr Jagz, where others may have been tempted to make more coarse and direct comment. Such restraint is admirable and to be commended. tongue.gif

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 3rd Jan 2014, 11:50pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 3rd Jan 2014, 06:58pm) *
A wind-up merchant ... Has Dylan summoned up a big gun from his bowling club or the Horseshoe perchance?

Or has he allowed one of his personalities to escape his control?
This looks like another case for Prof. Dr. Dr. Tee von Hee Hee tongue.gif

Posted by: Guest 4th Jan 2014, 03:11am

I live in Australia. I have an Australian passport and a U.K. passport. I want to vote in the referendum, but cannot. Why can I not vote? I am Scottish by birth as were all my forebears. The bones of my ancestors lie in the soil and have become the soil of Scotland. I have more than passing interest in the cause of freedom, but cannot vote. This thing is set up by the Scottish National Party, and they say who can vote. What are they afraid of by not allowing me to vote?

Posted by: Guvin Jimm 4th Jan 2014, 08:18am

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 3rd Jan 2014, 02:16am) *
Still waiting on an answer why some people think San marino has a voice in the world but Scotland shouldn't.
I even knocked this up to show the difference but i had to zoom right into San Marino because it looked like a speck, and it still does.

Any takers?



Andorra, Luxembourg, Monaco, Cypress, Norway, Iceland and we havent even left western Europe. Whit wee country???

Posted by: john.mcn 4th Jan 2014, 01:27pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 3rd Jan 2014, 01:57pm) *
Have you seen the Soldiers in San Marino ?

Wha dare mess wi them. ?

Good mapping.

Mrs. Dylan wants to know if you could do her one of Emerdale ?




And yet they are an internationaly recognised Republic. No threats of invasions or bombings, except of course by the UK during WW2.

If you have an answer to why you think Scotland should not represent itself on the International stage but microstates, many of whome have less populations than our towns never mind country, please let us know as i am genuinely interested.



Posted by: Dylan 4th Jan 2014, 01:58pm

[quote name='john.mcn' date='4th Jan 2014, 01:44pm' post='3651111']
And yet they are an internationaly recognised Republic. No threats of invasions or bombings, except of course by the UK during WW2.

If you have an answer to why you think Scotland should not represent itself on the International stage but microstates, many of whome have less populations than our towns never mind country, please let us know as i am genuinely interested.
[/quote]


Yes exactly, because of their Soldiers !! Have you seen them ohmy.gif I'm not authorised to Post foties but have a Google.

Will I tell Mrs. Dylan that Map of Emardale is a No. ?



Posted by: bilbo.s 4th Jan 2014, 02:13pm

Well, John, you weren't honestly expecting a sensible answer, were you ? wacko.gif

Posted by: *NELLIE DEAN* 4th Jan 2014, 02:48pm

QUOTE (Heather @ 2nd Jan 2014, 10:00am) *
Well said Farrochie.

When we get our Independence we may well have a few problems at first, but Rome wasn't built in a day, and in time Scotland will sort itself out.

We have heard for years how Scotland is subsidised by the English, if that is true, why are they so anxious to hang on to us.

Scotland gets whatever Government England votes for, so lets take our future into our own hands.

Bought and sold for English gold. angry.gif


Posted by: Elainethepain 4th Jan 2014, 02:50pm

QUOTE (Heather @ 2nd Jan 2014, 10:00am) *
Well said Farrochie.

When we get our Independence we may well have a few problems at first, but Rome wasn't built in a day, and in time Scotland will sort itself out.

We have heard for years how Scotland is subsidised by the English, if that is true, why are they so anxious to hang on to us.

Scotland gets whatever Government England votes for, so lets take our future into our own hands.

Bought and sold for English gold. angry.gif


Such A Parcel Of Rogues In A Nation

1791: Type: Poem

Fareweel to a' our Scottish fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory;
Fareweel ev'n to the Scottish name,
Sae fam'd in martial story.
Now Sark rins over Solway sands,
An' Tweed rins to the ocean,
To mark where England's province stands-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

What force or guile could not subdue,
Thro' many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling traitor's wages.
The English stell we could disdain,
Secure in valour's station;
But English gold has been our bane-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

O would, or I had seen the day
That Treason thus could sell us,
My auld grey head had lien in clay,
Wi' Bruce and loyal Wallace!
But pith and power, till my last hour,
I'll mak this declaration;
We're bought and sold for English gold-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 4th Jan 2014, 03:04pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 1st Jan 2014, 07:46pm) *
I think the subsequent Posts have somewhat proved my point. rolleyes.gif biggrin.gif

To think they want to run Scotland under King Eck .!!!


Some people just can`t -- or won`t -- see the facts of the matter. As I`ve made plain repeatedly, I`m all for independence.

But not under the SNP. They are merely delivering a referendum paper. Beyond that lies 2016 free elections. Where any number of NEW parties can stand. The SNP are inextricably linked with the other Big 3. They are the defacto 4th "National" Party. Best chuck them out too.

Just another good reason to vote for self-determination.

Please quantify that claim the SNP automatically inherit Scotland inperpetuity just cos we`re having a referendum....

Posted by: bilbo.s 4th Jan 2014, 03:09pm

Anurra optimist expecting a sane response ? laugh.gif

Posted by: bobbygee 4th Jan 2014, 03:47pm

RAB C got it right
who would follow alex salmond anywhere he will say anything to become king of Scotland .

Whatever the educated academics put forward as a reason to be worried about a yes vote he just denies it without any credible evidence as to why.

He talks about the money saved from trident would be used to create growth in the health service etc. etc. bla de bla de bla .
There would be no money for HIM .! !

The submarines would be relocated using the same money then as now British Government money
all we would get out of it would be the associated unemployment and our share of the national debt.

I wont be sleep walking into the emotional past of the people who live in it .

Posted by: JAGZ1876 4th Jan 2014, 04:19pm

Welcome to GG bobbygee, i'm sure you can put up a better defence of the Union than name calling the FM as we have a resident GG unionist comedian who does this already, so tell us about these "educated academics" who put forward reason's to be worried about a yes vote, who are they, what credible evidence do they provide?

Perhaps if you could give a few examples of what their fears for a YES vote are we could discuss them, and also what do you mean that the money saved from Trident when you said "There would be no money for HIM .! !"?

And could you also explain what you meant when you said that relocating the submarines would mean "all we would get out of it would be the associated unemployment and our share of the national debt."?

"I wont be sleep walking into the emotional past of the people who live in it ."

Neither will i bobbygee. that's why i will be voting YES in 256 days thumbup.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 4th Jan 2014, 04:31pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 4th Jan 2014, 02:15pm) *
Yes exactly, because of their Soldiers !! Have you seen them ohmy.gif I'm not authorised to Post foties but have a Google.

Will I tell Mrs. Dylan that Map of Emardale is a No. ?



What their ceremonial gaurds wear is about as relevant to the point as what the Beefeaters wear ( plus have you seen trooping the colour?). Why do you feel they, and other small 'nations' should be represented on the world stage by themselves but are fine with Scotland being a 2'nd class country.

Posted by: john.mcn 4th Jan 2014, 04:33pm

QUOTE (bobbygee @ 4th Jan 2014, 04:04pm) *
I wont be sleep walking into the emotional past of the people who live in it .



The only people who bleat on about 'emotional past' are the ones who talk of the success of the 300 odd years of the Union!

I will be walking to the polling station with my eyes open looking to the future!

Posted by: JAGZ1876 4th Jan 2014, 06:29pm

Why do i get the feeling we won't be hearing from bobbygee again John tongue.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 4th Jan 2014, 06:32pm

Look out ! He's behind you. laugh.gif

Posted by: wombat 4th Jan 2014, 06:48pm

tongue.gif

 

Posted by: BobMorton 4th Jan 2014, 06:53pm

The decision to date YES or NO? I suppose if you ask yourself a few questions you should come to an obvious answer.

By voting Yes you will say goodbye forever to democratic abnormality of Scotland being governed by parties that it didn't vote for.You may say that the last Labour government reflected the voting of inclinations of Scotland but even this is disputable . I don't think many Scottish Labour voters who cheered the election of Tony Blair ever realised that what they would get was nothing to do with" traditional labour values' . They never voted for a neo liberal Labour government in thrall to the whims of the City of London and it's corrupt banking elite. Brown and Blair merely carried on the Thatcher revolution, deregulating the banking system and paving the way for London to become one of the richest cities in the world( and indeed one of the most unequal) In short political decision about Scotland would be made in Scotland by a modern accountable Scottish parliament. Oh and BTW a Yes vote is NOT a vote for the demonised ( by the right wing press) Alex Salmond ( who should go down as one of the great post war politicians) There will be an an election in 2016 when you can vote for who ever you like. You may even get a revitalised Scottish Labour party which will be free from interference and direction from London.

After a Yes vote our parliament will have a written constitution guaranteeing basic rights to our population. Sovereignty will lie in the hands of the Scottish people and not parliament. This will be in contrast to the present Westminster system which has no written constitution and no bill of rights for it's citizens who are referred to as subjects.. This is a system where sovereignty lies with parliament hand that of course includes it's unelected second chamber - the house of Lords and an unelected monarch. Sovereignty in the present UK system does not lie with the people. . I would add that Westminster is a system mired in scandal and corruption, a system unable and unwilling to reform itself. It is a parliament no longer fit for purpose and clearly not able or interested in the remnants of the political post war consensus that at one time tried to serve the needs of all the peoples of the UK. It is now wedded to meeting the needs of the Tory shires and the corrupt elites of the new emerging City State of London. Looking to London we see corruption in the political system, corruption in the mainstream media and police force and above all blatant corruption in the banking system. In all of these London elites almost no one has been prosecuted for their criminality.


If you vote Yes you will see the removal of weapons of mass destruction from the Clyde.
These obscenities that are easily capable of destroying all of Europe's major cities are sited less than 30 miles from Glasgow and amazingly not in the Tory heartlands of South East England.
A Yes vote would end once and for all the madness of sending young Scottish men and women to fight illegal wars. Only the Scottish people and their parliament would have the right to decide on these matters. The Scottish Defence Force advocated in the recent white paper would do what it says on the tin. i.e. defend Scotland and not roam around the world taking on the moral mantle of the world's police force and would no longer be at the beck and call of great world leaders such as George Bush.

A Yes vote will give Scotland the unique chance to build a society based on social democratic values and not the clearly discredited neo liberal nightmare that is Westminster and the greed ridden immoral City of London banking system. Scotland is resource rich. It's laughable when we are told by Project Fear that our oil reserves are a problem. How can we have had so much oil and end up poorer. How can we have such wealth of resources and have some of the worst poverty and ill health in Europe. Why is it that men in our cities die 25 years before men in the South East of England. Is it not possible that we could do better than this for our children and grand children.
We have the ability/talent and the resources to emulate the success of the Nordic countries.
Better Together would have us believe that we are too poor too small and too stupid to do any better. Can we not aspire to something better.

You may think that by voting No Scotland will be safe from the immense problems that all developed countries face. So what do you get when you vote No. Will things just stay the same?
Maybe you think the austerity policies will be ok. The bedroom tax is a necessary evil.? The cuts
will eventually do their job., energy cartels are necessary evil. A No vote does have consequences. For a start the Scottish political representation in the UK parliament will be cut. The Barnett formula will be abandoned. A new system will take it's place built on the myth that Scotland is subsidised by England and what will be required is a slimmed down" based on need" Scottish grant, perhaps a cut of 3-4 billion. Any revival in the Uk economy will be funded by further cuts to welfare. We will have a British and Scottish Labour party that will not tolerate " the something for nothing society" Our future will still be dependent on a unreconstructed banking system and more volatile Uk housing bubbles. London will remain the safe tax haven for the world's richest people.Many economists are already predicting future financial collapses. A No vote will mean more of the same. It will mean no hope of progress. It will mean no aspirations about creating a better and more fair society. These are real fears not the half truths of Better Together " spook the people" mantras.

So for me a Yes vote is a no brainer.My decision is one of the head and the heart. Ironically the Better Together campaign is actually an emotional campaign aimed directly at our hearts dealing in doubt, suggested uncertainty and fear. BTW check out who is actually funding this campaign. All the polling research shows that once voters investigate the facts of this debate move clearly in the direction of a Yes vote.

So do I think everything after a Yes vote will be bright and happy. Of course it won't . Scotland like every other major European country faces real problems . An independent Scotland will get things wrong but it will have the ability to correct those mistakes.At present major decisions about Scotland are still being made by a bunch of Eton toffs in London who have little grasp of the issues and problems facing ordinary people.
So vote Yes not just for Scotland but for the rest of the areas of the UK who just like Scotland are suffering from a failing political system. An independent Scotland will be the key to real progressive change for the whole of the UK.

Posted by: Elma 4th Jan 2014, 07:38pm

Thanks for putting the facts before us so clearly, Bob. I wish I had a vote in September, but for now I'm asking all my family in Scotland to vote YES.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 4th Jan 2014, 09:38pm

Good for you Elma, and what a great third post Bob, you really have been hiding your light under a bushel, i look forward to reading more posts from you, and any other sleeping GG members who wish to put forward intelligent and well written posts on the referendum regardless of how they intend to vote.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 5th Jan 2014, 01:10am

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 4th Jan 2014, 10:55pm) *
... what a great third post Bob, you really have been hiding your light under a bushel, i look forward to reading more posts from you, and any other sleeping GG members who wish to put forward intelligent and well written posts on the referendum regardless of how they intend to vote.

Made me want to check out the other two tongue.gif
Nice one Bob and I heartily agree with Jag on this wink.gif

Posted by: bobbygee 5th Jan 2014, 04:12pm

Sorry Zag I was drunk when I posted that ah thought it was light hearted humour no insult intended we all know Alex cant be King it was a joke Tee Hee

The academics ? Well obviously ah cant name them cause ah dont write down there names when they come on Question time or Andrew Marr s Show etc.
Ah just listen with interest and because they have no political affiliation they sound to me like they know what they are talking about .
But what do ah know ahm just an old pensioner who has seen a lot over a long period of time.

As for "money for HIM " "HIM" was Alex, Leader of the S.N.P. It probably should have read "NO MONEY FOR THE S.N.P. OR SCOTLAND " by getting rid of the submarines.
Its not like "HE" "HIM" THE S.N.P. will get like a big "no claims bonus " cheque from London for not having the submarines . So how does not having them make more money for other things?!!

I thought the fact that getting rid of them would leave people unemployed was self evident a bit like when the Americans left Dunoon. but like I say "what does an old man know"
Hope I have clarified my point and you definately wont hear from me again, this is like working again ahm supposed to be retired Cheers and be happy

Posted by: JAGZ1876 5th Jan 2014, 05:36pm

Well thanks for getting back to us anyway Bobby (and don't call me Zag, it makes me sound like a puppet alien from a long lost Channel 4 breakfast show laugh.gif ) and don't worry, you're not the first to post on here drunk.

Beware of academics, especially on the BBC as they can have hidden agendas, i always question their impartiality when there is no one from the YES side to reply to their independent (Ahem) advice, they may well sound like they know what they are talking about but the same could be said for many bar room philosophers, in the cold light of day a lot the "expert" analysis falls apart.

As for Trident, the major bonus we will get is not having Europe's largest nuclear arsenal less than 30 miles from our largest city, add in the £billions we contribute to this abomination and the £billions we will save in not having to fork out on the next generation of Trident then you can surely see the saving on this alone not to mention the countless other savings we will make by not having to contribute to the many more Westminster vanity projects that have been highlighted on the other independence thread, that our money can go to Scottish needs and projects to benefit us and not be frittered away massaging the ego of Westminster and it's needs.

Having Trident removed is nothing like the US leaving the Holy Loch, Faslane will become the HQ for Scotland's naval surface fleet which will mean more jobs for the local area than are employed at present.

And stop talking yourself down by saying ""what does an old man know" Bobby, pensioners have a lot to contribute to society, and even though you appear to be in the NO camp keep on posting as we need more views of both sides.............Just do it when your sober tongue.gif

Posted by: DannyH 5th Jan 2014, 10:56pm

Hello All

One of the things that bothers me about contributing to this topic is, that some contributors seem to take the view that anyone who asks questions is in the NO camp.

I am not in the NO camp, but I am not convinced the current SNP's leadership definition of independence ties in with the founding SNP members idea of 'liberty'.

We are told by the SNP that membership of the EU is a done deal, but we have not been given any written proof of this. So it would appear that the SNP are quite happy for EU citizens to flock to Scotland, in the knowledge that an independent government would be unable to stop them. These EU immigrants would be able to claim benefits, including housing.

It also seems that we will retain the existing currency, i.e. the Pound Sterling and, ominously, unless I am badly mistaken, the BANK OF ENGLAND, will set our interest rate.

So as far as I am concerned the SNP is not asking us to vote for REAL independence. It is a pseudo independence. How can a country be independent, when the EU can overule that country's laws, and allow any EU citizen (including beggars and criminals) to come to Scotland?

How can a country be independent when the value of its currency is determined by a 'foreign' country?

We all have moans quite rightly about the Westminster government, and how things will change with independence. But will they? A newspaper report dated Friday, January 1, 2014, makes me think otherwise.

The former chief executive of Historic Scotland who QUIT after a turbulent 30 MONTHS, has been given a £300,000 PAYOFF. This severence package was signed off by THE SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT.

In my humble opinion, this was a golden opportunity for the SNP to say, "Listen, this is not Westminster, you quit your job, so just go"! The question surely arises, "Why didn't the SNP say that"? Is this what we are going to get come independence? The 'common' worker loses his job and is lucky of he gets a pittance of a severance payment. The bankers who got us into this mess continue to get obscene payments and bonuses, and failed top executives continue to get obscene severance packages. Come on SNP, for god's sake get a reality check and convince us in plain English, what is going to change.

And before the staunch YES supporters start throwing bricks at me, I asked for a copy of the SNP's White Paper to be sent to me some weeks ago. I am still waiting for it to arrive. We all know why we are fed up with Westminster. What we want to know is, what is going to change? One thing for sure is it will not be the politcians no matter which way the vote goes. They are all career minded.

Regards to All

Danny Harris

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 6th Jan 2014, 01:15am


Posted by: *george* 6th Jan 2014, 11:58am

Danny H. Having monitored this site for a while your posting is the first to make real sense well done my man.

The snp apparently have the power right now to provide free child care so mothers can go to work but they wont. Why not? because the tax these mothers would pay would go to the chancellor in the capital of great britain. So our caring snp who are going to provide us with everything from nothing are prepared to hold their own people to ransome. In other words to get free child care vote yes. Is this a sign of things to come!!

Hope all the barrack room lawyers are taking note.

Posted by: john.mcn 6th Jan 2014, 12:42pm

In all the years i've been arguing for an Independent Scotland I'm struggling to think of a time when the campaign was based on free child care, illegal wars...yes, WMD just up the road...yes, mismanagement of the oil revenues...yes, free child care...er no!
Can the SG bring in free child care at the moment, possibly, i haven't looked into it but as i said it's no big deal, no chink in the armour, no achilles heel. It isn't the bottom can of a pyramid of beans that will all topple over if you pull it out.


As has been said a number of times (and by the looks of it not being taken in) the referendum is not a vote for the SNP, its a vote for Scotland to be an equal nation in the world with a yes, or it's a vote no and you think we are less significant than San Marino, Monaco, Liechtenstein and loads of others nations far smaller than us.

Posted by: Betsy2009 6th Jan 2014, 01:26pm

So I'm a parent who could get an admittedly low paid job but at least I'll be working and contributing. Unfortunately the cost of child care is almost as much as I'd be earning so it's not worth it for all the difference it would make.
If, however, I was able to access free child care I'd be able to get out and earn my money instead of relying on benefits.

Child care is not important? Think again. If this lot are holding it back then they are doing more damage than good.

Yes - I know - they can be voted out but that's not much help to me between now and September.

Posted by: angel 6th Jan 2014, 02:28pm

I think child day care costs should be subsidized according to income and the payments made by the parent should be tax detuctable , There are many subsidies handed out by government's to business's so why not day child care . parents should be in the business of working to earn a living and taking advantage of all the other subsidised payments that go to create employment .

just my opinion !

Posted by: john.mcn 6th Jan 2014, 04:12pm

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 6th Jan 2014, 01:43pm) *
So I'm a parent who could get an admittedly low paid job but at least I'll be working and contributing. Unfortunately the cost of child care is almost as much as I'd be earning so it's not worth it for all the difference it would make.
If, however, I was able to access free child care I'd be able to get out and earn my money instead of relying on benefits.

Child care is not important? Think again. If this lot are holding it back then they are doing more damage than good.

Yes - I know - they can be voted out but that's not much help to me between now and September.


Where is the money to pay for it going to come from?
George is right that any employment taxes gained through 'free' childcare will go straight into the chancellors big pot but Scotland will not see a comparative rise in its budget to make up for services being cut elsewhere. So again where will the money come from, pensioners free travel, prescriptions, free personel care for the elderly or how about the council tax freeze?
Childcare costs are a heavy burden on a working family, and i speak from experience as i have paid a kings ransom in costs when my kids were growing up, but that is not a reason to vote yes or no in the referendum, the issues i mentioned earlier are and as much as the Bitter together lot try to make it a game changer, it isn't.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 6th Jan 2014, 04:44pm

QUOTE (*george* @ 6th Jan 2014, 12:15pm) *
The snp apparently have the power right now to provide free child care so mothers can go to work but they wont. Why not? because the tax these mothers would pay would go to the chancellor in the capital of great britain. So our caring snp who are going to provide us with everything from nothing are prepared to hold their own people to ransome. In other words to get free child care vote yes. Is this a sign of things to come!!


You are correct George if the SG brought in the childcare scheme the benefits of the extra taxation would go straight to that other George at No 11 (you're not him, are you?) therefore the money to pay for the scheme would have to come from the SG's block grant (Barnett formula) so where would you and the other Britnat barrack room lawyers make cuts in other services to pay for it, NHS. education etc?

I'm looking forward to this.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 6th Jan 2014, 04:48pm

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 6th Jan 2014, 01:43pm) *
Child care is not important? Think again. If this lot are holding it back then they are doing more damage than good.

Yes - I know - they can be voted out but that's not much help to me between now and September.


The same question i asked to George Betsy, which service would you like to see cut to pay for it?

The only way to get the childcare Scotland deserves is to Vote YES in 254 days thumbup.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 6th Jan 2014, 04:53pm

QUOTE (*george* @ 6th Jan 2014, 12:15pm) *
In other words to get free child care vote yes. Is this a sign of things to come!!


Or in other words the Westminster way, vote NO and then we'll tell you what you'll get, as they did in 1979, and what did we get?.......................Thatcher angry.gif

Posted by: angel 6th Jan 2014, 05:04pm


first of all I do not intend to argue politics , but I will say that if the cost is
more than any government local or federal can afford i.e to keep a welfare system going , then it is time to cut back , just get the priorities
in line . Any country needs a society that wants to work , not bitch about their welfare payments or whatever , but then , there are those who have made a career out of bilking the government , ie " the Taxpayer " .

I was in the States" a few weeks ago and comming through the
checkout in one of the big supermarkets , "there he was " a disabled
man , paralized from the waste down sitting in his own special chair
working at the checkout , which had been adapted for him to work
checking out the customers purchases , it is the first time that I have
ever seen that , maybe it goes on in the UK , I don't know , but it sure looked like it gave that man a reason to live and earn his own dollar , he had
pride in himself , a functioning member of society.



Posted by: jaygee 6th Jan 2014, 05:38pm

The target for Yes or No factions is a vote on Sept 18th.
Really, does anybody think The Scottish Govt. would damage its' Independence aspirations by alienating the voter over child care provision if they coulod afford to pay it.
This is a diversion; Keep it simple vote yes and there will be more funds available and a govt. who is answerable to its' electorate.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 6th Jan 2014, 05:44pm

Yet another Labour stalwart joins the YES campaign.

http://www.yesscotland.net/news/former-labour-council-chief-latest-high-profile-figure-say-yes

Hurry up Dylan, i've got the kettle on and have left the door open laugh.gif

Posted by: Dylan 6th Jan 2014, 05:55pm

Salmond did not say he could not afford Child Care today.

On the contrary, he said he could but would not, because many Mothers would get work, pay tax which would go

to Westminster..

His words his reasoning.

How mean and shows the measure of the man.

He does not care for the people of Scotland, only himself and his ambition to be King of Scotland.

His last Junket to America cost about £500,000 . £54,000 still unaccounted for.????

He lived like a King . biggrin.gif

Posted by: Dylan 6th Jan 2014, 05:58pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 6th Jan 2014, 06:01pm) *
Yet another Labour stalwart joins the YES campaign.

http://www.yesscotland.net/news/former-labour-council-chief-latest-high-profile-figure-say-yes

Hurry up Dylan, i've got the kettle on and have left the door open laugh.gif



A malcontent, tailor made for the SNP. tongue.gif

Posted by: Betsy2009 6th Jan 2014, 06:35pm

Angel, I am really surprised at the shortage of disabled people in work if you haven't seen it before. There are lots and lots of working disabled people. I've worked with many of them from physical disabilities, including deaf and blind, to mental health disabilities.
In many cases the word 'disability' can be misleading. It means that they have some sort of problem rather than not always being 'able' to get on with life, including working.

Posted by: angel 6th Jan 2014, 07:17pm

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 6th Jan 2014, 05:52pm) *
Angel, I am really surprised at the shortage of disabled people in work if you haven't seen it before. There are lots and lots of working disabled people. I've worked with many of them from physical disabilities, including deaf and blind, to mental health disabilities.
In many cases the word 'disability' can be misleading. It means that they have some sort of problem rather than not always being 'able' to get on with life, including working.

Betsy , most of the disabled people that you mention are in government sponored work shops / places , and I probably have seen a lot more of them than yourself .

However I do think that you know exactly what I mean when I posted about that man in the supermarket yes.gif ....He is a person who really wants to work because he believes that he is capable and fit enough to go out into the work force and earn his money , which gives him a lot more freedom than living off the taxpayer , " also pride of self " that's so very important , not like some able bodied people , who will and have spent their life on welfare .

Once again my opinion based on observation . and experience .

Posted by: bilbo.s 6th Jan 2014, 07:38pm

Where are the topic polis? tongue.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 6th Jan 2014, 07:56pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 6th Jan 2014, 06:12pm) *
Salmond did not say he could not afford Child Care today.

On the contrary, he said he could but would not, because many Mothers would get work, pay tax which would go

to Westminster..


Link?

I found
“Under independence, that money would stay in Scotland to help to pay for the expansion of childcare on a sustainable basis.

“A rise in the number of women in work of just two per cent would boost tax revenues by £200million.

“If the rate reached Swedish levels – a six per cent rise – revenues would increase by £700million.”

i read that as without the exta tax income it would be unsustainable.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 6th Jan 2014, 08:01pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 6th Jan 2014, 06:15pm) *
A malcontent, tailor made for the SNP. tongue.gif


Yes, there are a lot of malcontent Labour supporters coming round to the fact that we are not better together, make sure you don't miss the boat tongue.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 6th Jan 2014, 08:07pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 6th Jan 2014, 06:12pm) *
Salmond did not say he could not afford Child Care today.

On the contrary, he said he could but would not, because many Mothers would get work, pay tax which would go

to Westminster..

His words his reasoning.

How mean and shows the measure of the man.

He does not care for the people of Scotland, only himself and his ambition to be King of Scotland.

His last Junket to America cost about £500,000 . £54,000 still unaccounted for.????

He lived like a King . biggrin.gif


Same question to you Dylan that i asked George and Betsy, which services budget would you cut to pay for childcare.

What was his last US junket and what is the £54,000 still unaccounted for?

I hope you are not pulling our legs again.

Posted by: john.mcn 6th Jan 2014, 09:22pm

This would involve the expenses accrued during the Ryder cup visit to Chicago in 2012. SG policy is to shred any paperwork not in the publics interest after 3 months, Labour wait till 2013 to put in a FOI request then throw a wobbly when there is no breakdown as to what was spent. Not like them to wait so long so makes me think they knew about the shredding and waited to make a story, why it has been recycled now is down to Paul Martin MSP , though as the son of disgraced Michael Martin...well you can google for expenses scandals.

As to the trip itself, if it generates money for Scotland i'm all for them.

Posted by: Dylan 6th Jan 2014, 09:52pm

Not to worry, duplicate credit card and bank statements have been applied for and an answer will be given.

Salmond could save the time by telling us what he did with the missing £55,000. However he assumes that as per normal it will all go away and he will get away with it.


Not this time.!

Posted by: Dylan 6th Jan 2014, 09:54pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 6th Jan 2014, 08:24pm) *
Same question to you Dylan that i asked George and Betsy, which services budget would you cut to pay for childcare.

What was his last US junket and what is the £54,000 still unaccounted for?

I hope you are not pulling our legs again.



No cuts required, Salmond said he could do it.

You would need to ask him how.!!

Just part of his old " Nae Bother " attitude.

It will be all right on the night, what a trooper. biggrin.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 6th Jan 2014, 10:13pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 6th Jan 2014, 10:11pm) *
No cuts required, Salmond said he could do it.

You would need to ask him how.!!

Just part of his old " Nae Bother " attitude.

It will be all right on the night, what a trooper. biggrin.gif


Link please!

Saying the SG has the powers and actually having the money to do it are two different things. The tax income generated and benefits saved from the policy would go a long way to pay for it, savings from not having a big willy to wave about nuclear deterrent would fill the gap. its simple Dylan you are just sticking your fingers in your ears shouting lalalalalalala.

Posted by: john.mcn 6th Jan 2014, 10:21pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 6th Jan 2014, 10:09pm) *
Not to worry, duplicate credit card and bank statements have been applied for and an answer will be given.

Salmond could save the time by telling us what he did with the missing £55,000. However he assumes that as per normal it will all go away and he will get away with it.


Not this time.!


Why would you assume Salmond micro manages everything, do you think he knows who drunk or ate whatever during that trip, do you think he knows how much the taxi or limos costs. Was he the sole person with a SG credit card or did every wee bill have to be passed to him for his OK. Of course these bills should be scrutinised but why on earth did the Labour party wait so long to ask for the records, when most FOI requests come from them costing a bloody fortune i cant help but think this is intentional..

Posted by: JAGZ1876 6th Jan 2014, 10:37pm

Ah, that old Chestnut, the FM attends the Ryder cup as the head of the SG who will host the next event and this is a junket?

The FM represented Scotland at the event and was present at the opening and closing ceremony and accepted the ceremonial silver putter marking the handover from Chicago to Gleneagles in 2014, the First Minister also attended a series of key business and promotional engagements during his visit as did other members of the party.

What the detractors forget is he was joined by representatives from VisitScotland and Scottish Enterprise in order to promote Scottish businesses, culture, tourism and golf, and while Dylan is correct the trip cost just under £500,000 what he forgets or doesn't want to admit is the trip has to date injected over £100million in orders and tourism into the Scottish economy

The hypocrisy of Labour supporters is unbelievable as Jack McConnell when he was FM and his Holyrood Labour government spent more than that on Tartan Day trips to New York during each one of their last three years in office, he was happy to splash out on treating himself and other ministers to taxpayer-funded trips, would you call those trips junkets Dylan?

In 2006 the cost to send Jack McConnell and friends to the celebrations in New York was £700,000, over £200,000 more and six years before Alex Salmonds trip, what would that work out in today's money when you factor in inflation Dylan?

I don't think you would expect your unionist poster boy David Cameron to pay for his foreign visits, why should the FM?

Posted by: JAGZ1876 6th Jan 2014, 10:41pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 6th Jan 2014, 10:11pm) *
No cuts required, Salmond said he could do it.


No he hasn't, you've just made that up.

Posted by: bilbo.s 6th Jan 2014, 10:49pm

Dearie me, Jagz. Still trying to use facts and logic with someone who has not reached the age of reason ? unsure.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 6th Jan 2014, 11:03pm

Maybe Dylan would prefer it if Scotland was promoted by sending bags of 'Peat Reek' around the world to save money,though it probably wouldn't make any money as it's innovator Angus Og found out.

bet that brings back memories biggrin.gif

Posted by: Betsy2009 7th Jan 2014, 01:01am

The article:
"The First Minister says, following separation, the SNP aims to provide 1,140 hours of free care a year for all children, from the age of one until they start school.

But critics point out the proposed overhaul to the system can be carried out now, using powers already available to Holyrood ministers under devolution.

And a YouGov poll published yesterday revealed nearly two-thirds of Scots believe any improvements should be introduced immediately.

But Mr Salmond insists his plan cannot be implemented under the current set-up as then the UK Government would benefit from increased tax revenue arising from thousands of Scots mothers he expects to return to work.

He said: “Under independence, that money would stay in Scotland to help to pay for the expansion of childcare on a sustainable basis.

“A rise in the number of women in work of just two per cent would boost tax revenues by £200million."

The link:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/452249/Scottish-First-Minister-Alex-Salmond-vows-for-free-childcare

Posted by: Betsy2009 7th Jan 2014, 01:14am

Angel, the people I mentioned had ordinary jobs carried out by ordinary people, doing the same jobs and getting the same wages. They were just other members of the teams rather than supported, although I've also known a couple of severely disabled people who were on supported schemes and/or work placement assistance type of thing.

You're right though. To see people with disabilities doing a day's work instead of sitting at home feeling sorry for themselves like some lazy gits on benefits great. That's not to say that there will obviously be other disabled people who really are unable to work.

I remember one girl who had to have carers to get her out of bed and dressed in the morning and the same going to bed at night. She was quite badly disabled but came to work every day and was in a fairly high paid job because she had such a good head on her shoulders. Put the rest of us to shame when we moaned about being tired in the morning because of a late night. It took her about 3 hours in the morning to get to work, including an hour's travel.

It really annoys me to see lazy people not working.
Having said that - I'm really glad that I'm retired now - so it's my turn to be lazy!

Posted by: zascot 7th Jan 2014, 05:37am

[quote name='Betsy2009' date='7th Jan 2014, 01:18am' post='3651303']
The article:
"The First Minister says, following separation, the SNP aims to provide 1,140 hours of free care a year for all children, from the age of one until they start school.

1140 hours is 47 days. Can they take mine for july and the first 2 weeks of August? tongue.gif

Posted by: DavidT 7th Jan 2014, 08:46am

Is the union lost? The politics of the union seem to be quite popular on here, at least among the IDS fanclub...lazy scrounging disabled people, etc. The union was lost for me a long time ago. There's no Utopia, but we need a just society where the able and willing will look after the least able. There will always be those who play the system. There will always be those we term as disabled. Most if not all would happily trade their illness to be able to work. Only by voting YES can Scotland deliver a fairer society. Westminster will never deliver it or even attempt to. I have never supported the politics of the elitist few. They are the real takers of your tax penny. We have a chance to get out of their greedy grip. Take the chance. Vote YES.

Posted by: Betsy2009 7th Jan 2014, 09:03am

"A fairer society"?
The majority of people in England/Wales/NI want the same thing!
Who's to say that our politicians won't be as bad as the Westminster lot once they are in power.
We'll also still be ruled by the EU lot.
Are there any politicians out there who are worth their salt?
Will the new era include new rules re MSP salaries, expenses and jaunts abroad, etc?
How do we get good people to manage Scotland's finances?
Anyone out there want to the job?

Posted by: Dylan 7th Jan 2014, 09:08am

DT,

Elitist and the greedy do not stop at Gretna ?

Posted by: DavidT 7th Jan 2014, 09:13am

At present we have no power to stop them. Would you like the power to put an end to that style of government?

Posted by: Dylan 7th Jan 2014, 09:18am

Of course I would.

There are fair and reasonable people in Scotland and England and the Ballot Box , in the end,will emerge the winner.

I just hate the Politics of Nationalism.

We can be better together.!

Posted by: JAGZ1876 7th Jan 2014, 09:44am

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 6th Jan 2014, 11:06pm) *
Dearie me, Jagz. Still trying to use facts and logic with someone who has not reached the age of reason ? unsure.gif


Maybe one day the penny will drop bilbo unsure.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 7th Jan 2014, 09:46am

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 6th Jan 2014, 11:20pm) *
though it probably wouldn't make any money as it's innovator Angus Og found out.

bet that brings back memories biggrin.gif


Ochone Ochone laugh.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 7th Jan 2014, 09:48am

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 7th Jan 2014, 01:18am) *
But critics point out the proposed overhaul to the system can be carried out now, using powers already available to Holyrood ministers under devolution.

And a YouGov poll published yesterday revealed nearly two-thirds of Scots believe any improvements should be introduced immediately.


Once again Betsy, which other budgets would you cut from the block grant to pay for the childcare?

Posted by: JAGZ1876 7th Jan 2014, 09:52am

QUOTE (Dylan @ 7th Jan 2014, 09:35am) *
I just hate the Politics of Nationalism.

We can be better together.!


But not the politics of right wing British nationalism, do you also hate Scotland's right to self determination?

How about giving a couple of examples of how we can be better together?

Posted by: Dylan 7th Jan 2014, 09:55am

You always return to insults.

You are well aware I hate Right Win g Nationalism.

Other than malice, why would you say this ?

Posted by: Dylan 7th Jan 2014, 09:58am

I defend any countries right to self determination. I am a Democrat and am expressing my right to comment.

That is what the Referendum is all about ?

Posted by: JAGZ1876 7th Jan 2014, 10:11am

QUOTE (Dylan @ 7th Jan 2014, 10:12am) *
You always return to insults.

You are well aware I hate Right Win g Nationalism.

Other than malice, why would you say this ?


Where was the insult?

Posted by: boots 7th Jan 2014, 11:19am

I have just finished reading (at one shot) all 10 pages of posts in this thread and I would like to thank all the posters who contributed as I now have a much better grasp of the pros and cons of both sides of the question than previously. Living in Canada I naturally don't have a vote which is as it should be but now I must guiltily admit, I'm almost grateful that I will be a bystander. You see, if I were voting, it would be for the Scotland I knew and I think that's a very different Scotland you know today. I would have been following my heart, sticking with what was familiar, holding on to memories I don't want to let go of, but in reality most of it seems to have already gone. I'll gladly let go of our mainly English parliament but must I give up Queen Elizabeth - the 18 year old princess I remember in her army uniform helping defend London as it was being blitzed. I'd like to keep her son and grandchildren too but I don't think that will be part of the negotiations nor do I sense that many other people will share my "likes" but then we all agree on everything, can we? if we did we wouldn't need to vote. So after all my reading, sentiment has given way to logic and if I were voting this September, I would mark my ballot YES.

boots

Posted by: ann mcdonald 7th Jan 2014, 12:09pm

On scanning this site I notice some people who seem to have all the answers much like Salmond. They seem to be a fountain of self centered knowledge and a bit of dreamers like most Nationalists. Here are some historical facts about great Scots dreamers and how we should learn from history.

The Darien project , heard of it ? bet they have and he will correct any mistakes I may make. In the late 1600 s the Scots set of to create their own trading nation called Caledonia on the Ishmus of Panama the capital was called New Edinburgh. One Thomas Drummond was in charge, a dreamer and ill equipped to be in charge . things had only been dreamed about "sound familiar". He and his followers had no idea what was involved in a massive undertaking like this.

The crops failed because they hadnt done their homework on the climate the indians didnt want their trinkets, disease set in and many were dead . All this time word was sent back to Scotland that all was going well (lies) After 8 months in JULY 1699 it was abandoned but because the Scots had not been told in time a second expedition had already left arriving in NOVEMBER 1699. Meanwhile the Spanish who saw their trade being threatened attacked and all but wiped them out.

The few hundred who survived returned home bankrupt having lost the vast fortune they set out with. Disease, starvation, world politics, and bad leadership had ended the dream.

In 1707 after the act of union London granted nearly four hundred thousand pounds to Scotland to offset future liability towards the national debt. This was the amount they had squandered on their ill conceived dream. TENS OF MILLIONS IN TODAYS MONEY. These people had a dream it turned out to be a nightmare. "BEWARE OF THE DREAMERS" No one will be handing us millions back next time. As a foot note the Scots then went on to do rather well forging the Empire in all corners of the Globe along with their English partners . Dont let anyone try and tell you the Empire was created by the English, the Scots played an equal part including all the bad bits some people would like to forget. We all did rather well out of it "ALWAYS BETTER TOGETHER" Hitler found that out to his peril.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 7th Jan 2014, 12:24pm

What a shame you don't have a vote Boots, but no matter, you will be pleased to know that this referendum is about dissolving the act of Union (1707) the Union of the Crowns will remain so Elizabeth will still be Queen of Scots just as she's the Queen of Canada.

It's nice to see that Ex pats are taking an interest in the referendum.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 7th Jan 2014, 01:12pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 7th Jan 2014, 01:41pm) *
... you will be pleased to know that ... Elizabeth will still be Queen of Scots

Phew ... so I'm still in with a shout for my knighthood, or an MBE gong (but for which category; hairdressing is already taken by D. Cameron's barber) tongue.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 7th Jan 2014, 01:19pm



http://wingsoverscotland.com/another-blackout/

Conservative councillor claiming 'devo max' was offered but declined by Salmond... Really??? I seem to remember every London based party uniting against this option and it being dropped as an option due to Camerons insistence.
I've never understood the Libdems stance on this, they are (or should be) federalists and 'devo max' is one step towards it, labour as a past champion of home rule should also want it as Holyroods 'father' Donald Dewar seen devolution as a process not an event.
So as the referendum gets closer will we now see complete U turns and offers of a 'devo max' option if the people of Scotland vote no.. Can they be trusted, would you trust your house keys with the local blagger?

Posted by: john.mcn 7th Jan 2014, 01:20pm

QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 7th Jan 2014, 01:29pm) *
Phew ... so I'm still in with a shout for my knighthood, or an MBE gong (but for which category; hairdressing is already taken by D. Cameron's barber) tongue.gif


Must take a lot of will power not to slit his throat though, he probably deserves it wink.gif

the MBE that is biggrin.gif

Posted by: Dylan 7th Jan 2014, 01:31pm

I think Devo-Max is the best option.

We will then know that our Pensions will be paid on time.

Our TV favourites will be safe.

No need for new Passports..

The local blaggers are the SNP.

Life under them would lead to Resistance Fighters . biggrin.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 7th Jan 2014, 02:00pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 7th Jan 2014, 01:48pm) *
I think Devo-Max is the best option.

We will then know that our Pensions will be paid on time.

Our TV favourites will be safe.

No need for new Passports..


It's a pity the unionist parties didn't share you view of Devo Max.

How will we, i've recently been informed that i will have to work until i am at least 66, my wife has had the same letter meaning that Westminster has pocketed six years of her hard earned state pension...........Sorry what were you saying again about our pensions being paid on time?

Your TV favourites are safe, even if you move to the Republic of Ireland, Netherlands etc.

If the English electorate decide to leave the EU in the Tories promised referendum you will most certainly need a new passport.

Any other pearls of wisdom?

Posted by: bilbo.s 7th Jan 2014, 02:15pm

Good points, Jagz, especially the passport one. I bet little Englanders hadn't thought of that one - and they won't be issued free !

Posted by: boots 7th Jan 2014, 02:18pm

Well thank you Jacz ,,, Dylan and Tee hee. It's nice to know Elizabeth will still be with us, she has always taken her job very seriously and performs her duties well

THH. I'll put in a word for you and let her know you want that knighthood..{First time I'm talking to her)

boots rolleyes.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 7th Jan 2014, 02:26pm

In the event that Tomi is not offered a knighthood, he'll settle for a balaclava ! laugh.gif

Posted by: Dylan 7th Jan 2014, 02:59pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 7th Jan 2014, 02:17pm) *
It's a pity the unionist parties didn't share you view of Devo Max.

How will we, i've recently been informed that i will have to work until i am at least 66, my wife has had the same letter meaning that Westminster has pocketed six years of her hard earned state pension...........Sorry what were you saying again about our pensions being paid on time?

Your TV favourites are safe, even if you move to the Republic of Ireland, Netherlands etc.

If the English electorate decide to leave the EU in the Tories promised referendum you will most certainly need a new passport.

Any other pearls of wisdom?


In your opinion.

No facts, just assumptions and guesses as per SNP instructions. !!

Posted by: john.mcn 7th Jan 2014, 03:16pm

Scottish Labour: Johann Lamont rejects devo-max option

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-labour-johann-lamont-rejects-devo-max-option-1-2149370


I've been to Ireland and the Netherlands, both got the BBC. I dont watch terrestrial TV anyway i'd rather have 100 channels of crap over 5 any day wink.gif

Oh and i never needed a passport going to Ireland either.

Posted by: Dylan 7th Jan 2014, 03:56pm

Ah but Salmond wants to replace the BBC with the SBC and bring back the White Heather Club.

He will jam the BBC from Scotland, no more Corrie or Emerdale. Plus as far as I am concerned but Mrs. Dylan is spitting blood.

Posted by: angel 7th Jan 2014, 04:18pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 7th Jan 2014, 03:13pm) *
Ah but Salmond wants to replace the BBC with the SBC and bring back the White Heather Club.

He will jam the BBC from Scotland, no more Corrie or Emerdale. Plus as far as I am concerned but Mrs. Dylan is spitting blood.


laugh.gif laugh.gif Dylan that is really funny . yes.gif

Posted by: angel 7th Jan 2014, 04:38pm

I read today that about 60% of the voters' will vote to remain with the union , does that help Mrs Dylan biggrin.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 7th Jan 2014, 04:42pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 7th Jan 2014, 04:13pm) *
Ah but Salmond wants to replace the BBC with the SBC and bring back the White Heather Club.

He will jam the BBC from Scotland, no more Corrie or Emerdale. Plus as far as I am concerned but Mrs. Dylan is spitting blood.


Well those two programs are ITV as i'm sure you know fine well.

Gone are the days of being restricted by what the likes of BBC and ITV let us watch, we have the options of cable, freeview and satellite for stations and the likes of netflix or lovefilm for TV series and films for less than the price of a TV license..
Also if you know how to set up a VPN your options for network streaming greatly increase because you can then go for the US versions which make UK ones look 3rd world.

Anyone who makes loss of the BBC an independence issue is still living in the last century, but i suppose thats an improvement, usually it's the last 3 centuries wink.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 7th Jan 2014, 04:57pm

Och, John ! Shame on you for trying to spoil Dylan's wee joke. It won't deter him from making more hilarious, satirical posts though, as he can't distinguish between facts and opinions. wacko.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 7th Jan 2014, 05:03pm

QUOTE (angel @ 7th Jan 2014, 05:55pm) *
I read today that about 60% of the voters' will vote to remain with the union , does that help Mrs Dylan biggrin.gif


That's it then. It's in the bag ! No wonder the NO camp don't bother to make any rational contributions to the debate. Eheu, eheu ! O me miserum ! sad.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 7th Jan 2014, 05:28pm

Well if its the recent 'poll' on behalf of Just say NO (minus zammo) then you could read that different ways, the minority view was the Union, 2nd was Full Independence and the top answer was Devo max, but seeing as the winner is not an option and would be disqualified, that leaves full indy in top place.
I dont think anyone was under the illusion that Devo max would not win in a 3 horse race, thats precisely why the BeeTees wanted it gone. But now that they took away a legally binding option they can now promise the world if we vote no, but dont actually have to deliver as we know election promises aren't worth the leaflet they are printed on.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 7th Jan 2014, 05:58pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 7th Jan 2014, 03:16pm) *
In your opinion.

No facts, just assumptions and guesses as per SNP instructions. !!


My opinion...............Really.

The unionist parties did not want anymore powers (Devo Max) added the the Scotland bill...... Fact

My wife and i and friends have received letters from Dept for Work and Pensions as i am sure many on GG can verify that we are going to have to work over 65, so yet again......Fact.

British TV can be viewed from the countries i have mentioned plus others.......Fact

If the UK separates from the EU it will need to produce it's own non EU passport..........Fact.

You'd better get in touch with Tory HQ for further instructions.

Posted by: angel 7th Jan 2014, 06:21pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 7th Jan 2014, 05:14pm) *
Och, John ! Shame on you for trying to spoil Dylan's wee joke. It won't deter him from making more hilarious, satirical posts though, as he can't distinguish between facts and opinions. wacko.gif


it's just too bad that it won't deter you , from getting your jollies at expense of others , and from me that's a fact and my opinion

Posted by: angel 7th Jan 2014, 06:31pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 7th Jan 2014, 04:20pm) *
That's it then. It's in the bag ! No wonder the NO camp don't bother to make any rational contributions to the debate. Eheu, eheu ! O me miserum ! sad.gif


they don't have to ...... remember they have been called in past post's as being stupid for not being in the yes camp. so what are you looking for , more stupidity , and infantile remarks , Why ? , when we already have enough comming from you and your cohorts .

Posted by: Dylan 7th Jan 2014, 06:50pm

Well said Pat.

thumbup.gif

Prepare for revenge attack biggrin.gif

Posted by: Dylan 7th Jan 2014, 07:05pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 7th Jan 2014, 06:15pm) *
My opinion...............Really.

The unionist parties did not want anymore powers (Devo Max) added the the Scotland bill...... Fact

My wife and i and friends have received letters from Dept for Work and Pensions as i am sure many on GG can verify that we are going to have to work over 65, so yet again......Fact.

British TV can be viewed from the countries i have mentioned plus others.......Fact

If the UK separates from the EU it will need to produce it's own non EU passport..........Fact.

You'd better get in touch with Tory HQ for further instructions.


Salmond would have you working till you are 71.

They can not watch BBC if Salmond jams. Like North Korea.

The UK will not separate from the EU.

thumbup.gif

Oh and 60% Scotland will vote No .

Posted by: JAGZ1876 7th Jan 2014, 07:46pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 7th Jan 2014, 07:22pm) *
Salmond would have you working till you are 71.

They can not watch BBC if Salmond jams. Like North Korea.

The UK will not separate from the EU.

thumbup.gif

Oh and 60% Scotland will vote No .


Thanks Dylan, that post will ensure more YES votes than all of mine put together thumbup.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 7th Jan 2014, 07:46pm

Does North Korea jam the BBC, does that mean they're missing Corrie and Emmerdale too?

Posted by: Dylan 7th Jan 2014, 08:07pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 7th Jan 2014, 08:03pm) *
Thanks Dylan, that post will ensure more YES votes than all of mine put together thumbup.gif


You wish. tongue.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 7th Jan 2014, 08:19pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 7th Jan 2014, 08:24pm) *
You wish. tongue.gif


You keep your Bacofoil hat over your napper Dylan so that evil Kim Jong Eck can't jam your brainwaves laugh.gif

Posted by: Dylan 7th Jan 2014, 09:08pm

Kim Jong Eck., AKA Sal Mon Eck yes.gif

Posted by: wombat 7th Jan 2014, 09:17pm

tongue.gif did he hiv a sister called ella ? salmonella tongue.gif

Posted by: DavidT 7th Jan 2014, 09:51pm

QUOTE (wombat @ 7th Jan 2014, 09:34pm) *
tongue.gif did he hiv a sister called ella ? salmonella tongue.gif

Wis he no actually from SOUTH Korea? Who could forget the classic, "I'm a Seoul Man" by Salm Ond Dave tongue.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 7th Jan 2014, 09:58pm

Or even the South Pacific favourite "Salmondchanted Evening" laugh.gif

Posted by: DavidT 7th Jan 2014, 10:11pm

laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 7th Jan 2014, 10:47pm

To follow on from the 'Devo max' non option i recommend reading Peter Currans brilliant blog.


http://moridura.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/scottish-better-together-parties-cant.html

Posted by: GG 7th Jan 2014, 11:24pm

A bit of order please! thumbup.gif

GG.

Posted by: bilbo.s 7th Jan 2014, 11:24pm

QUOTE (angel @ 7th Jan 2014, 07:48pm) *
they don't have to ...... remember they have been called in past post's as being stupid for not being in the yes camp. so what are you looking for , more stupidity , and infantile remarks , Why ? , when we already have enough comming from you and your cohorts .



Oh dear, was it something I said ? I am certainly not looking for more stupidity and infantile remarks, but that seems to be all that is comming (sic) from your wee pal and you. The YES voters in general try to debate seriously on this important topic, but are continually and deliberately frustrated by the inane and vindictive remarks from your little clique of two.

Speaking for myself, I have no objection to views opposite to mine, but it would be good to understand the justification for those positions. Oh, I forgot - you don't do justifications - you don't have to. tongue.gif

Posted by: angel 8th Jan 2014, 01:45am

biggrin.gif


long legs do not make a man or a friend .

Posted by: Elma 8th Jan 2014, 02:39am

eh?????????? wink.gif

Posted by: Guvin jimm 8th Jan 2014, 08:36am

QUOTE (ann mcdonald @ 7th Jan 2014, 12:26pm) *
On scanning this site I notice some people who seem to have all the answers much like Salmond. They seem to be a fountain of self centered knowledge and a bit of dreamers like most Nationalists. Here are some historical facts about great Scots dreamers and how we should learn from history.

The Darien project , heard of it ? bet they have and he will correct any mistakes I may make. In the late 1600 s the Scots set of to create their own trading nation called Caledonia on the Ishmus of Panama the capital was called New Edinburgh. One Thomas Drummond was in charge, a dreamer and ill equipped to be in charge . things had only been dreamed about "sound familiar". He and his followers had no idea what was involved in a massive undertaking like this.

The crops failed because they hadnt done their homework on the climate the indians didnt want their trinkets, disease set in and many were dead . All this time word was sent back to Scotland that all was going well (lies) After 8 months in JULY 1699 it was abandoned but because the Scots had not been told in time a second expedition had already left arriving in NOVEMBER 1699. Meanwhile the Spanish who saw their trade being threatened attacked and all but wiped them out.

The few hundred who survived returned home bankrupt having lost the vast fortune they set out with. Disease, starvation, world politics, and bad leadership had ended the dream.

In 1707 after the act of union London granted nearly four hundred thousand pounds to Scotland to offset future liability towards the national debt. This was the amount they had squandered on their ill conceived dream. TENS OF MILLIONS IN TODAYS MONEY. These people had a dream it turned out to be a nightmare. "BEWARE OF THE DREAMERS" No one will be handing us millions back next time. As a foot note the Scots then went on to do rather well forging the Empire in all corners of the Globe along with their English partners . Dont let anyone try and tell you the Empire was created by the English, the Scots played an equal part including all the bad bits some people would like to forget. We all did rather well out of it "ALWAYS BETTER TOGETHER" Hitler found that out to his peril.

Try and read history and not confine yourself to puerile anecdotes. The history of the Darien scheme was also one of treachery on behalf of king William's refusal to send any ships or any kind of salvation to the Scots who were trapped and due largly to "their kings" perfidy perished there. Dont get emotive get educated.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 8th Jan 2014, 09:04am

QUOTE (angel @ 8th Jan 2014, 02:02am) *
biggrin.gif


long legs do not make a man or a friend .


They would if your your friend was a male stilt walker yes.gif

Posted by: Dylan 8th Jan 2014, 09:25am

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 7th Jan 2014, 11:41pm) *
Oh dear, was it something I said ? I am certainly not looking for more stupidity and infantile remarks, but that seems to be all that is comming (sic) from your wee pal and you. The YES voters in general try to debate seriously on this important topic, but are continually and deliberately frustrated by the inane and vindictive remarks from your little clique of two.

Speaking for myself, I have no objection to views opposite to mine, but it would be good to understand the justification for those positions. Oh, I forgot - you don't do justifications - you don't have to. tongue.gif


Salm Ond Dave.

Salmondcbhanted Evening.

Very serious. ?

No but light hearted banter and funny !

Posted by: angel 8th Jan 2014, 12:14pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 8th Jan 2014, 08:21am) *
They would if your your friend was a male stilt walker yes.gif


you know this from your own personal experience .

Posted by: angel 8th Jan 2014, 12:18pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 7th Jan 2014, 11:41pm)

Oh dear, was it something I said ? I am certainly not looking for more stupidity and infantile remarks, but that seems to be all that is comming (sic) from your wee pal and you. The YES voters in general try to debate seriously on this important topic, but are continually and deliberately frustrated by the inane and vindictive remarks from your little clique of two.


I have only made one reference to the referendum on this thread
and that was a comment from me to Dylan about his wifes' teeth ,
which was meant as a humorous remark from him , but as usual
you decided to show us all , just how clever you really are ,

anyway , as you and I have no respect for each others' opinion's
it is better that we don't make any more comments on them .

Posted by: john.mcn 8th Jan 2014, 12:51pm



Much has been said in this topic about the pledge to introduce free child care for working parents, those on the nay side tell us that it can be implemented within the powers of devolution right now. Well i would like to know what they think about free school meals, i always thought that every child should have at least one free healthy meal a day under the school system and is as important as the lessons, just because a parent/carer works does not mean they have the disposable income to give around £2 a day, per child, for their school meals..
Well the SG does have this power and it looks like come next year primaries 1-3 will have a free meal, a start and its something i hope in the future will be expanded..
What caught my eye about this though is the North British division of the Labour party voted AGAINST it. Do they not care about our children getting a free hot meal a day, are they playing politics with the health of the next generation.. I think yes!
Whats is the point about bleating on about what powers the SG have NOW if all they do is vote against any policies put forward , pathetic bottom feeding scum is probably all i can get away with posting here.
Lamont may try to worm her way out of this saying they were voting against Independence, she will have her chance in September just like every other resident. I know they are the 'opposition' but that does not mean they have to oppose everything the SG does.

Posted by: Dylan 8th Jan 2014, 02:55pm

I agree with free School Meals.!

I agree with free Child Care.

As Zag asked, what benefits will Salmond cut to deliver. ? tongue.gif


I don't remember Lamont saying she was voting against Independence.?

She gave a valid reason but I still want Free Meals for all.

Posted by: Betsy2009 8th Jan 2014, 03:07pm

If you can't afford children - don't have them???

Posted by: bilbo.s 8th Jan 2014, 05:05pm

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/david-cameron-admits-lack-of-popularity-in-scotland-1-3261014

Apt reader's comment:-

" So he knows that nobody in Scotland voted for him and he admits that nobody in Scotland likes him, but he still thinks Scotland should allow him to set our fiscal budget, collect our oil revenue, victimise the weakest in our society with his welfare policies, negotiate on our behalf with the EU, sell off our public services and spend our money buying nukes to store next to our largest city. Because who needs democracy when you can be Better Together? Cameron is in charge of a country which even he admits doesn't want him or his party, and unionists have the cheek to call Salmond a dictator?!? "

Posted by: john.mcn 8th Jan 2014, 05:30pm

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 8th Jan 2014, 03:24pm) *
If you can't afford children - don't have them???


QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 6th Jan 2014, 01:43pm) *
So I'm a parent who could get an admittedly low paid job but at least I'll be working and contributing. Unfortunately the cost of child care is almost as much as I'd be earning so it's not worth it for all the difference it would make.
If, however, I was able to access free child care I'd be able to get out and earn my money instead of relying on benefits.

Child care is not important? Think again. If this lot are holding it back then they are doing more damage than good.

Yes - I know - they can be voted out but that's not much help to me between now and September.


You seem to be contradicting yourself here


Children are needed for society to work, peoples state pensions are not paid by the ones drawing them at the moment but the ones working now, and likewise future pensions for the ones working now will be paid by the young when they are older.
Thats why governments are concerned about birth rate amongst the wealth generators, too few and we could be looking at a massive hole in finances that could only be filled by immigration.
free childcare and school meals for working parents will cost less in paperwork and bureaucracy than having people pay for it then trying to claim it back in taxes, yeah some people might whinge about not having kids but still paying for them, but as i pointed out we will all eventually benefit from the younger generation and it's right that they are given the best start they can get in life.

Posted by: john.mcn 8th Jan 2014, 05:37pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 8th Jan 2014, 03:12pm) *
I agree with free School Meals.!

I agree with free Child Care.

As Zag asked, what benefits will Salmond cut to deliver. ? tongue.gif


I don't remember Lamont saying she was voting against Independence.?

She gave a valid reason but I still want Free Meals for all.


It will be costed as per the budget, the free childcare is not part of the budget so to implement it now something will have to be cut.
I'm all for free childcare coming out of the block grant, but if westminster then benefit from the less welfare and more tax receipts it's only right they increase the black grant accordingly.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 8th Jan 2014, 05:44pm

QUOTE (angel @ 8th Jan 2014, 12:31pm) *
you know this from your own personal experience .


No not at all, i was just trying to make sense of your post.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 8th Jan 2014, 05:53pm

QUOTE (Guvin jimm @ 8th Jan 2014, 08:53am) *
Try and read history and not confine yourself to puerile anecdotes. The history of the Darien scheme was also one of treachery on behalf of king William's refusal to send any ships or any kind of salvation to the Scots who were trapped and due largly to "their kings" perfidy perished there. Dont get emotive get educated.


You are spot on Guvin jimm, i hadn't even spotted this post till you replied to it, not only is her knowledge of the Darien Scheme non existent, her version of the events leading to Act of the Union are a total fabrication, as for her history of WW2.......do me a favour huh.gif

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 8th Jan 2014, 07:07pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 8th Jan 2014, 05:54pm) *
It will be costed as per the budget, the free childcare is not part of the budget so to implement it now something will have to be cut.
I'm all for free childcare coming out of the block grant, but if westminster then benefit from the less welfare and more tax receipts it's only right they increase the black grant accordingly.


Good point. But they won`t increase it. Something somewhere else will, as our coalition role models keep spouting, have to "take a hit".

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 8th Jan 2014, 07:10pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 8th Jan 2014, 03:12pm) *
I don't remember Lamont saying she was voting against Independence.


So, she`s voting for it then...?!!

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 8th Jan 2014, 07:31pm

QUOTE (Ruchazie Rat @ 8th Jan 2014, 08:27pm) *
So, she`s voting for it then...?!!



Aye, that puzzled me too, but I have long given up trying to figure Dylan's logic and thought processes. laugh.gif

Posted by: Dylan 8th Jan 2014, 07:37pm

QUOTE (Ruchazie Rat @ 8th Jan 2014, 07:27pm) *
So, she`s voting for it then...?!!

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


No, John said that she would say she voted against it as a vote against Independence.

Not true.

She explained why she voted against it.!

Posted by: bilbo.s 8th Jan 2014, 11:07pm

http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/2014/01/06/stop-right-there/

Posted by: Noonan McKane 8th Jan 2014, 11:26pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 8th Jan 2014, 06:10pm) *
You are spot on Guvin jimm, i hadn't even spotted this post till you replied to it, not only is her knowledge of the Darien Scheme non existent, her version of the events leading to Act of the Union are a total fabrication, as for her history of WW2.......do me a favour huh.gif


I've a fairly good grasp of events leading up to the act of union. I can understand how events in the 17th century are relevant to this debate.


We keep the oil if we promise not to sack York again. Is that it?

Posted by: Guvin Jimm 9th Jan 2014, 01:59am

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 8th Jan 2014, 03:24pm) *
If you can't afford children - don't have them???


Excuse me but how "high tory" can you get? My auld granny brought up 4 daughters a son and an adoptee whose parents could no longer feed him. All on a dustman's wages during the depression. The great grand children are alive and thriving.

Posted by: Guvin Jimm 9th Jan 2014, 02:11am

QUOTE (Noonan McKane @ 8th Jan 2014, 11:43pm) *
I've a fairly good grasp of events leading up to the act of union. I can understand how events in the 17th century are relevant to this debate.


We keep the oil if we promise not to sack York again. Is that it?


Actually William the conker awarded the lands of Yorkshire to the Bruce (De Brus) family and as hereditory lands of the Scottish royal family maybe we should demand that as part of our territory. Along with Cumberland and Nortumberland.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Jan 2014, 09:00am

QUOTE (Noonan McKane @ 8th Jan 2014, 11:43pm) *
I've a fairly good grasp of events leading up to the act of union. I can understand how events in the 17th century are relevant to this debate.


We keep the oil if we promise not to sack York again. Is that it?


How is 17th century events relevant to today's debate Noonan?

Why would we not keep what is ours?

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Jan 2014, 09:05am

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 8th Jan 2014, 05:54pm) *
It will be costed as per the budget, the free childcare is not part of the budget so to implement it now something will have to be cut.


Not one of those demanding the SG introduce the childcare scheme has answered the repeated question of which budgets they would cut to pay for it.

No surprise there.

Posted by: Dylan 9th Jan 2014, 09:17am

Salmond has not answered this either ?

Posted by: Betsy2009 9th Jan 2014, 09:23am

Government budgets are provided annually on 1st April so if England is doing this then AS only needs to ask for the equivalent to be added to the budget.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Jan 2014, 09:26am

QUOTE (Dylan @ 9th Jan 2014, 09:34am) *
Salmond has not answered this either ?


Yes he has, has have i and other GG posters.

Posted by: Betsy2009 9th Jan 2014, 09:28am

Isn't it budget management to provide your kids with food for their lunch/dinner/tea as a priority? I don't remember getting any freebies yet we survived, even when I was on benefits for a couple of years. Mind you, my kids didn't get £100 trainers.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Jan 2014, 09:29am

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 9th Jan 2014, 09:40am) *
Government budgets are provided annually on 1st April so if England is doing this then AS only needs to ask for the equivalent to be added to the budget.


It won't be introduced in England Betsy, and the block grant will be cut not increased.

The only way it can be afforded is with an independent Scottish government controlling the purse strings.

Posted by: john.mcn 9th Jan 2014, 09:48am

QUOTE (Dylan @ 9th Jan 2014, 09:34am) *
Salmond has not answered this either ?


If you mean Salmond hasn't answered where the money for the Child care policy is coming from you are lying, he has answered and i and others have repeated it. The funds will come from not contributing to weapons of mass destruction and the savings from less benefits paid to people who can now work, they will also pay tax and NI .
I'd like to know what you are against ?
Getting rid of WMD
Free child care.
People now working
More people paying taxes

If you aren't against any of it then i wondering why you are supporting a union where none of these are ever going to happen.

Posted by: Dylan 9th Jan 2014, 09:56am

Debate is debate , which is how we each interpret the issues we debate.

If I disagree with you it does not mean I am stupider than you and it certainly does not mean I am lying !

You post is a generalisation of the money saved from dismantling WMDs.

It is not the definitive answer as no specifics have been made by Salmond.


Posted by: Betsy2009 9th Jan 2014, 11:15am

But from September (note the date) all children in infant schools will be getting free school meals (years 1-3) in England.

Posted by: john.mcn 9th Jan 2014, 12:00pm

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 9th Jan 2014, 11:32am) *
But from September (note the date) all children in infant schools will be getting free school meals (years 1-3) in England.


Barnett system, the SG get a % increase due to this policy and that is what is paying for School meals here next year.
Ahh you'll say then that is a benefit of Devolution and being in the UK, and i will reply that if you use that i will just point out that both Labour and Condems want further cuts with Osbourne stating he wants a further £25billion of them, Scotlands budget will also be cut accordingly.

Posted by: john.mcn 9th Jan 2014, 12:14pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 9th Jan 2014, 10:13am) *
Debate is debate , which is how we each interpret the issues we debate.

If I disagree with you it does not mean I am stupider than you and it certainly does not mean I am lying !

You post is a generalisation of the money saved from dismantling WMDs.

It is not the definitive answer as no specifics have been made by Salmond.


I have never stated you are more stupid than myself because you have a different opinion.

When we are no longer paying for a nuclear deterrent then we will have money to spend elsewhere, if an ex smoker says they'll spend their 'savings' on a holiday, do you refuse to believe them until they show you their money jar?

If you want a complete breakdown of costs the read the white paper.

Posted by: Dylan 9th Jan 2014, 12:27pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 9th Jan 2014, 12:31pm) *
I have never stated you are more stupid than myself because you have a different opinion.

When we are no longer paying for a nuclear deterrent then we will have money to spend elsewhere, if an ex smoker says they'll spend their 'savings' on a holiday, do you refuse to believe them until they show you their money jar?

If you want a complete breakdown of costs the read the white paper.


There is no cost breakdown for Child Care in the White Paper.! That is my point.

I agree there will be savings for scrapping WMD. I agree with this. I have been a CND supporter for over 50 years .

However it comes at a cost. Benefits will have to be paid to the people who loose their jobs for example and decommissioning will take up to 10 years.!

We have to be told how it will be financed and at what costs.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Jan 2014, 12:58pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 9th Jan 2014, 12:44pm) *
However it comes at a cost. Benefits will have to be paid to the people who loose their jobs for example and decommissioning will take up to 10 years.!

We have to be told how it will be financed and at what costs.


Who says the decommissioning will take 10 years?, and even if this were true Westminster will be paying to lease the site from the SG, and the workforce will be increased when the site becomes the HQ for the Scottish navy.

Posted by: Dylan 9th Jan 2014, 01:18pm

I was generalising re " Stupid " comment.

However you cannot but notice that this is a constant slur at us.

One lady member, whom I had previously considered moderate and reasonable, stated recently that if we, the No voters had any intelligence or courage we would vote Yes. ?

I sometimes wonder if the Yes supporters consist of Surgeons, Mathematicians, Nuclear Physicists and University Professors.


Posted by: Dylan 9th Jan 2014, 01:20pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 9th Jan 2014, 01:15pm) *
Who says the decommissioning will take 10 years?, and even if this were true Westminster will be paying to lease the site from the SG, and the workforce will be increased when the site becomes the HQ for the Scottish navy.


Ten years is the time scale I have heard mentioned.


You know this ?

Posted by: john.mcn 9th Jan 2014, 01:28pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 9th Jan 2014, 12:44pm) *
There is no cost breakdown for Child Care in the White Paper.! That is my point.

I agree there will be savings for scrapping WMD. I agree with this. I have been a CND supporter for over 50 years .

However it comes at a cost. Benefits will have to be paid to the people who loose their jobs for example and decommissioning will take up to 10 years.!

We have to be told how it will be financed and at what costs.


The majority of workers at Faslane are armed forces personnel who will be relocated, subbies will have fixed term contracts and would have to retender every few years anyway. There will be specialist civvie positions that will be lost, but as a CND supporter you'll agree that is an acceptable cost for a Nuclear free country.

Well you know what Dylan you dont have to worry about how it is costed yet, it is not the policy of the SNP now, only if Scotland votes YES later this year and then only if the people vote for them in 2016.

Seeing as you support free school meals, childcare and getting rid of the nuclear deterrent i wondering what,if any, SNP policies you are against biggrin.gif

Posted by: Dylan 9th Jan 2014, 01:50pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 9th Jan 2014, 01:45pm) *
The majority of workers at Faslane are armed forces personnel who will be relocated, subbies will have fixed term contracts and would have to retender every few years anyway. There will be specialist civvie positions that will be lost, but as a CND supporter you'll agree that is an acceptable cost for a Nuclear free country.

Well you know what Dylan you dont have to worry about how it is costed yet, it is not the policy of the SNP now, only if Scotland votes YES later this year and then only if the people vote for them in 2016.

Seeing as you support free school meals, childcare and getting rid of the nuclear deterrent i wondering what,if any, SNP policies you are against biggrin.gif


Probably only the one.!!

I have made it clear I abhor the Politics Of Nationalism.

When Oil was discovered the SNP wanted to keep it for themselves( Independent Scotland ) and cease to share with their neighbours.

I find this attitude appalling !

It's like the Lottery Winner who holds the winning ticket ,refusing to share with other members of the syndicate.!

Selfish in the extreme but he will give you a million reasons why he is justified.

If Oil had never been discovered. I wonder.???


oil had never been discovered

If

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Jan 2014, 02:22pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 9th Jan 2014, 02:07pm) *
I have made it clear I abhor the Politics Of Nationalism.

When Oil was discovered the SNP wanted to keep it for themselves( Independent Scotland ) and cease to share with their neighbours.

I find this attitude appalling !


Selfish in the extreme but he will give you a million reasons why he is justified.


You don't seem to find the politics of British Nationalism abhorrent.

The SNP and fellow supporters of Scottish self determination were campaigning for independence long before oil was discovered.

When will we receive our share of Westminster pet projects?

Oh that's right, we only get to share in the paying for them, i don't suppose you find that selfish....Do you?

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 9th Jan 2014, 02:41pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 9th Jan 2014, 02:39pm) *
You don't seem to find the politics of British Nationalism abhorrent.

The SNP and fellow supporters of Scottish self determination were campaigning for independence long before oil was discovered.

When will we receive our share of Westminster pet projects?

Oh that's right, we only get to share in the paying for them, i don't suppose you find that selfish....Do you?


.. and the priviledge of being a global nuclear target by having US nukes dumped on us by our Engerlish Masters. The usual win-win scenario for them. And we pick up the tab though, in this instance, something which would`ve cost us far more than mere money, had the worst come to the worst.

How come no-one ever brings that up, hmmmm?

Posted by: Dylan 9th Jan 2014, 03:16pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 9th Jan 2014, 02:39pm) *
You don't seem to find the politics of British Nationalism abhorrent.

The SNP and fellow supporters of Scottish self determination were campaigning for independence long before oil was discovered.

When will we receive our share of Westminster pet projects?

Oh that's right, we only get to share in the paying for them, i don't suppose you find that selfish....Do you?


I HAVE TOLD YOU MANY TIMES BEFORE I DO NOT SUPPORT BRITISH NATIONALISM.

SNP AND BNP ARE ALL THE SAME TO ME.

PLEASE DO NOT ACCUSE ME OF THIS AGAIN. !

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Jan 2014, 05:26pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 9th Jan 2014, 01:37pm) *
Ten years is the time scale I have heard mentioned.


You know this ?


No i have never heard it before, why would it take 10 years?

Posted by: john.mcn 9th Jan 2014, 05:32pm

Thats a bit of a stretch saying the BNP and the SNP in the same sentence.


Anyway i take it you were against Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Belarus etc etc breaking away from the USSR. The toppling down of the iron curtain was just disgusting politics of Nationalism and the campaigners for East Timorese independence were little more than petty racists... Damn i'd hate to think what you say of that Gandhi one wink.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Jan 2014, 05:40pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 9th Jan 2014, 03:33pm) *
I HAVE TOLD YOU MANY TIMES BEFORE I DO NOT SUPPORT BRITISH NATIONALISM.

SNP AND BNP ARE ALL THE SAME TO ME.

PLEASE DO NOT ACCUSE ME OF THIS AGAIN. !


I assume this is a flimsy attempt by you to associate the SNP with right wing Nazi style politics, you really have gone too far this time you pathetic little man, we all have relations who fought against fascism so you and your ilk can have freedom of speech to come out with filth like this, how dare you accuse people who want to see Scotland take her rightful place beside other independent nations of being Nazis, and you claim to support a Labour party who is further to the right than most Tory governments.

Unless you have no shame at all i suggest that you apologies to the decent GG members who will be voting YES for your outrageous slur.

Posted by: wombat 9th Jan 2014, 06:17pm

QUOTE (Ruchazie Rat @ 9th Jan 2014, 02:58pm) *
.. and the priviledge of being a global nuclear target by having US nukes dumped on us by our Engerlish Masters. The usual win-win scenario for them. And we pick up the tab though, in this instance, something which would`ve cost us far more than mere money, had the worst come to the worst.

How come no-one ever brings that up, hmmmm?


yes.gif they're aw up the back of the couch laugh.gif

Posted by: Dylan 9th Jan 2014, 06:32pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 9th Jan 2014, 05:57pm) *
I assume this is a flimsy attempt by you to associate the SNP with right wing Nazi style politics, you really have gone too far this time you pathetic little man, we all have relations who fought against fascism so you and your ilk can have freedom of speech to come out with filth like this, how dare you accuse people who want to see Scotland take her rightful place beside other independent nations of being Nazis, and you claim to support a Labour party who is further to the right than most Tory governments.

Unless you have no shame at all i suggest that you apologies to the decent GG members who will be voting YES for your outrageous slur.


You started this by accusing me of being BNP, not for the first time.

Two way street .!

I rejoined this debate as you appeared to have mellowed in your treatment of opposition.

You have reverted to type with your Bully Boy tactics and personal insults.

Again you believe that everyone on here is your friend and will support you, their self appointed leader.

Not true.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Jan 2014, 06:57pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 9th Jan 2014, 06:49pm) *
You started this by accusing me to being BNP, not for the first time.

Two way street .!

I rejoined this debate as you appeared to have mellowed in your treatment of opposition.

You have reverted to type with your Bully Boy tactics and personal insults.

Again you believe that everyone on here is your friend and will support you, their self appointed leader.

Not true.


Liar.

You show me where i accused you of "being BNP", as for bully boy tactics it is you who is trying to associate the SNP and their supporters to right wing Fascism.

One way street.!

Where do you get this idea that i think everyone is my friend? and your self appointed leader rant would stretch the skills of Prof Von Tee Hee Hee.

Posted by: Dylan 9th Jan 2014, 07:09pm

"You don't seem to find the politics of British Nationalism abhorrent."


Scottish Nationalism = SNP

British Nationalism = BNP ?

You have Bullied everyone from this Thread and have been advised by other than me.

Well you can not Bully me , I will leave to deny you oxygen for your hate filled rants.

Second time today I have been called a Liar by SNP supporter.

Must be doing something right. !

Posted by: bilbo.s 9th Jan 2014, 07:22pm

National Express, National Trust, National Lottery, National Gallery, National Insurance et al.

The signs are all there - we are doomed to live under the jackboot, if we vote for independence. wacko.gif

Posted by: angel 9th Jan 2014, 08:30pm

QUOTE
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 9th Jan 2014, 05:57pm)

I assume this is a flimsy attempt by you to associate the SNP with right wing Nazi style politics, you really have gone too far this time you pathetic little man, we all have relations who fought against fascism so you and your ilk can have freedom of speech to come out with filth like this, how dare you accuse people who want to see Scotland take her rightful place beside other independent nations of being Nazis, and you claim to support a Labour party who is further to the right than most Tory governments.

Unless you have no shame at all i suggest that you apologies to the decent GG members who will be voting YES for your outrageous slur.


Och , never mind Dylan , it's par for the course on this thread , backed up against a wall , they revert to personal insults .
It's just that I would like to hope , the mentality of some on this thread is not that of the voters in this referendum . because they would surely lose if they only want voters , "yes or no " ie 6'2'' plus" .

Posted by: GG 9th Jan 2014, 08:32pm

A general observation about this topic:

Two instructions from the Board Rules. Please keep to them here.

GG.

Posted by: Betsy2009 9th Jan 2014, 08:34pm

This is getting embarrassing to read. May I humbly suggest that you all cool down a bit.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Jan 2014, 08:38pm

QUOTE (angel @ 9th Jan 2014, 08:47pm) *
Och , never mind Dylan , it's par for the course on this thread , backed up against a wall , they revert to personal insults .


And being compared to Nazis and fascists is just jolly banter?

Posted by: Dylan 9th Jan 2014, 08:39pm

QUOTE (angel @ 9th Jan 2014, 08:47pm) *
Och , never mind Dylan , it's par for the course on this thread , backed up against a wall , they revert to personal insults .
It's just that I would like to hope , the mentality of some on this thread is not that of the voters in this referendum . because they would surely lose if they only want voters , "yes or no " ie 6'2'' plus" .


Thank you Pat.

Posted by: angel 9th Jan 2014, 08:46pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 9th Jan 2014, 07:55pm) *
And being compared to Nazis and fascists is just jolly banter?


Give us a break . just more politicking from you ,
that 's your interpretation ,

Posted by: Dylan 9th Jan 2014, 08:46pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 9th Jan 2014, 08:55pm) *
And being compared to Nazis and fascists is just jolly banter?


No it is not, which is why I took exception to being compared to the BNP.

Glad you finally caught on.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Jan 2014, 09:01pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 9th Jan 2014, 09:03pm) *
No it is not, which is why I took exception to being compared to the BNP.

Glad you finally caught on.


You clearly haven't caught on, you insult your opponents then try to make out that you are the injured party.

You don't have any shame, do you?

Posted by: GG 9th Jan 2014, 09:04pm

To further the point I raised above:

I'm going to close this topic for a while.

Please do not take this discussion into any other topics!

GG.

Posted by: GG 9th Jan 2014, 11:28pm

Aa an interlude: a patronising Jeremy Paxman interviewing Alex Salmond in 2012, possibly doing his part to ensure that the "Union is already lost"?



GG.

Posted by: ann mcdonald 10th Jan 2014, 02:49pm

So "guvin jimm", you dont dispute the fact that the crown gave the scots their lost money back and that we scots did take part in forging the British empire thanks for that.

Posted by: Guvin Jimm 13th Jan 2014, 03:04am

QUOTE (ann mcdonald @ 10th Jan 2014, 03:06pm) *
So "guvin jimm", you dont dispute the fact that the crown gave the scots their lost money back and that we scots did take part in forging the British empire thanks for that.

I have already stated that your knowledge of the history of the act of Union is non existant. If you wish to make informed comments about the history of Scotland and events leading up to the Union including the subsequent economic conditions involved in the aftermath of that sorry imposition, I suggest you read the works of notable historians and not the facile arguments you preport to carry of any but fancifull and misleading anecdotes. I would also reccomend that you familiarise yourself with the "Act of Settlement" and the subsequent affirmation by Queen Anne, the last of the Stuarts, that upon her death the Scots would be free to choose their own monarch. It never happened

Posted by: JAGZ1876 13th Jan 2014, 05:13pm

QUOTE (ann mcdonald @ 10th Jan 2014, 03:06pm) *
So "guvin jimm", you dont dispute the fact that the crown gave the scots their lost money back and that we scots did take part in forging the British empire thanks for that.


Ann, the Scots that you talk about were the Lords and Nobles that had lost their own money investing in the ill fated Darien scheme (the reason why it failed deserves a thread of it's own) the Scottish economy at that time was doing as well as any Northern European trading nation and had no need to be in a union with England.

The Scottish Lords and Nobles who were parliamentarians sold out their country for personal gain, as they had been threatening to default on the bills they owed to their mainly English creditors the English parliament (not the Crown) put a package of money and lands in England together (a bribe to commit treason on Scotland and her people) and with war looming between England and France, Westminster was determined to secure its northern border.

The infamous 'English gold' was sent north to the parcel of rouges as Burns so eloquently put it.

"We're bought and sold for English gold-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!"

You are correct Ann, Scots made fortunes out of the Empire just as there are Scots doing well under the union, you only have to look at the Scots in the House of Lords with their ermine robes.

But it's only in an independent Scotland that we will improve the lives of the ordinary people of Scotland.

Posted by: *james1947* 16th Jan 2014, 08:10pm

I will probably vote No..first because I believe the SNP do not speak for the people, ie if the majority vote against it, then they will pass it (section 12 for example) their overiding green agenda where we pay millions of pounds to companies to turn off their turbines because no-one had the brains to build the infastructure to hold the excess electricity and Kenny McKaskill...'nuff said.

Can I also make a comment on Maggie regarding the dreaded poll tax. Think about it, you're wanting to try something out, where are you going to do it? Mmmm how about somewhere you have no MP's, somewhere if it doesn't work then it wont make a blind bit of difference to staying in government, somewhere that you can shaft the opposing party..
Where would you pick? No Brainer....Scotland.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 17th Jan 2014, 05:56pm

QUOTE (*james1947* @ 16th Jan 2014, 08:27pm) *
I will probably vote No..first because I believe the SNP do not speak for the people, ie if the majority vote against it, then they will pass it (section 12 for example) their overiding green agenda where we pay millions of pounds to companies to turn off their turbines because no-one had the brains to build the infastructure to hold the excess electricity and Kenny McKaskill...'nuff said.

Can I also make a comment on Maggie regarding the dreaded poll tax. Think about it, you're wanting to try something out, where are you going to do it? Mmmm how about somewhere you have no MP's, somewhere if it doesn't work then it wont make a blind bit of difference to staying in government, somewhere that you can shaft the opposing party..
Where would you pick? No Brainer....Scotland.


The referendum is about Scotland making decisions for ourselves James not whether the SNP speaks for the people or not.

You are probably going to vote NO, so could tell me why you think giving the Tory party the green light to rule Scotland as they see fit is going to benefit the people of Scotland?

The only no brainer is to vote YES for Scotland.

Posted by: Dylan 17th Jan 2014, 06:55pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 17th Jan 2014, 06:13pm) *
The referendum is about Scotland making decisions for ourselves James not whether the SNP speaks for the people or not.

You are probably going to vote NO, so could tell me why you think giving the Tory party the green light to rule Scotland as they see fit is going to benefit the people of Scotland?

The only no brainer is to vote YES for Scotland.



This is not a straight fight between the SNP and the Tories regardless what the SNP and Salmond say.

The people of Scotland have more sense.!

Posted by: JAGZ1876 17th Jan 2014, 07:01pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 17th Jan 2014, 07:12pm) *
This is not a straight fight between the SNP and the Tories regardless what the SNP and Salmond say.


Why didn't you you highlight James post as well?

And when did Alex Salmond or anyone else from the SNP say that it was a straight fight between them and the Tories?

Posted by: bilbo.s 17th Jan 2014, 07:27pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 17th Jan 2014, 08:12pm) *
The people of Scotland have more sense.!


More than you, I sincerely hope!

Posted by: Heather 17th Jan 2014, 07:55pm

Why do people think that voting YES for Scottish Independence, think they are voting for the SNP.

When Scotland becomes Independent, there will be Elections to Elect our own choice of Political Party to Govern Scotland. That will be better that at present, when we get whatever Party England votes for.

The Corries

A Parcel O' Rogues

http://youtu.be/Js7x3u2GHYs

Scotland the Brave

http://youtu.be/kK6LkpfZ94s

Posted by: Dylan 17th Jan 2014, 08:34pm

Why are people who are voting YES ,now trying to distance themselves from the SNP & Salmond.

Of course I know the answer !

Posted by: bilbo.s 17th Jan 2014, 08:37pm

Sharp as a butter-knife as usual ! tongue.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 17th Jan 2014, 08:51pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 17th Jan 2014, 08:51pm) *
Why are people who are voting YES ,now trying to distance themselves from the SNP & Salmond.

Of course I know the answer !


Don't you mean why are the people who are voting NO distancing themselves from the Tories and Cameron?

What is the answer that only you alone know?

Posted by: wombat 17th Jan 2014, 09:24pm

QUOTE (*james1947* @ 16th Jan 2014, 08:27pm) *
I will probably vote No.

Can I also make a comment on Maggie regarding the dreaded poll tax. Think about it, you're wanting to try something out, where are you going to do it? Mmmm how about somewhere you have no MP's, somewhere if it doesn't work then it wont make a blind bit of difference to staying in government, somewhere that you can shaft the opposing party..
Where would you pick? No Brainer....Scotland.

tongue.gif and you think people shood vote for merr of the same pal?
the people of Scotland are no ' lab rats'' tongue.gif


Posted by: jaygee 17th Jan 2014, 09:25pm

I am not a member of the SNP or any political party but I do pay attention to what happens in Holyrood. I see a constant personalised attacks on the First Minister.
Is this the only weapon the opposition can use because in general in these times of budget cuts from Westminster he and his party have done an outstanding job for the people of Scotland
Maybe just maybe after independence they can come up with MSPS who will be capable of having a political argument without resorting to snide remarks and bitching when they lose an argument.
At present I think there are quite a few career politicians realizing that their plans for knighthoods, ermine, and a taste of the London good life for the political class may be disappearing soon.

Posted by: wombat 17th Jan 2014, 09:34pm

QUOTE (jaygee @ 17th Jan 2014, 09:42pm) *
t I think there are quite a few career politicians realizing that their plans for knighthoods, ermine, and a taste of the London good life for the political class may be disappearing soon.



tongue.gif its only a BRIBE dressed up as sumthin else pal tongue.gif

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 18th Jan 2014, 02:19pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 17th Jan 2014, 08:51pm) *
Why are people who are voting YES ,now trying to distance themselves from the SNP & Salmond.

Of course I know the answer !


And the answer is... because the people of Scotland will deliver THEMSELVES from ALL parties that are responsible for turning Scotland into a bitch and doormat. And the SNP can only identift themselves any longer as a REACTIONARY party in regard to the other "Big 3" Unionists. As such they`ve lost their own direction. So, tata SNP. Roll on 2016 when, I guarantee you, there will be NO shortage of NEW parties chomping at the bit for a slice of the action. Including your 2 faced ex-Unionist hypocrit parties.

Voting YES means NOT having to vote for the SNP in 2016. How`s that for a 2016 election slogan? Think I should copyright that, Dylan? Or have you beat me to it?

biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Posted by: *james1947* 18th Jan 2014, 06:38pm

Think you missed the point there jagz, if we vote yes (to which I am still undecided) and the SNP get back in, it will not be our decisions that count, it will be the SNPs who will as in the past overide the majority of the people..

Posted by: *james1947* 18th Jan 2014, 06:52pm

Wombat..no-one mentioned voting for the Tories. What I made was an observation in regards to the poll tax which everyone (with every right too) in Scotland moans about.
My main point was that if we vote yes..and the SNP stay in power, then they will carry on disregarding the majority feeling of the Scottish people and make decisions to suit themselves...
P.s
I also dont think any of the other parties would be any better..hence the indecision about the yes or no vote..

Posted by: bilbo.s 20th Jan 2014, 08:55am

From a Yorkshire Scottish resident:-

Yorkshire folk are nostalgic, and in our own way nationalistic. Overheard Yorkshire accents often lead to enquiries of ‘where are you from’, as if somehow being from God’s own country is some kind of mystical bond. When I lived in Oxford I found that this northern-ness became a part of my identity, a means of separating myself from the dreaded southerner (in Scotland, I feel no need to make that distinction). I can understand entirely why Yorkshire people in the South East end up with such massive chips on their shoulders. When I lived down south I came to understand that this was the centre of the universe. People actually do vote Tory there, prosperity for the few is disgustingly present and the North was completely ‘other’, romanticised or ridiculed and without any real power. The North of England is rarely taken into consideration, and Scotland – well that’s another country.

It was there that I became a Yes voter. Witnessing the power of wealth in the south of England convinced me that we should take this historic opportunity to break away. The idea that we are abandoning the north of England disregards the working class across the UK, and is rooted in lefty nostalgia. It also places too much faith in the Labour Party, although Scottish voters are not needed for Labour to win in the UK.

We have a choice between nostalgia and moving forward. I think that the Better Together position is nostalgic, and with a rosy view of the United Kingdom as a happy union which works. It doesn’t, not for Northerners and not for Scots. Power is so centralised within the UK that the only way that North Britain can win any of this back is by breaking away."

Posted by: Dylan 20th Jan 2014, 09:35am

QUOTE (Ruchazie Rat @ 18th Jan 2014, 02:36pm) *
And the answer is... because the people of Scotland will deliver THEMSELVES from ALL parties that are responsible for turning Scotland into a bitch and doormat. And the SNP can only identift themselves any longer as a REACTIONARY party in regard to the other "Big 3" Unionists. As such they`ve lost their own direction. So, tata SNP. Roll on 2016 when, I guarantee you, there will be NO shortage of NEW parties chomping at the bit for a slice of the action. Including your 2 faced ex-Unionist hypocrit parties.

Voting YES means NOT having to vote for the SNP in 2016. How`s that for a 2016 election slogan? Think I should copyright that, Dylan? Or have you beat me to it?


You keep it RR as I would never consider voting SNP.

Copyright it ASAP or Salmond will nick it. biggrin.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 20th Jan 2014, 09:52am

QUOTE (*james1947* @ 18th Jan 2014, 06:55pm) *
Think you missed the point there jagz, if we vote yes (to which I am still undecided) and the SNP get back in, it will not be our decisions that count, it will be the SNPs who will as in the past overide the majority of the people..


Sorry for not replying to you sooner James but i have only now just noticed your post.

I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make then James?

If the SNP win the first Holyrood election after independence then the People of Scotland will have exercised their democratic right to elect the government of their choice.

I don't really see the SNP continuing for much longer in their current guise after independence as members will splinter off to (or form) other parties that will represent their left or right wing leanings, i know i will no longer need to vote for the only party who could deliver my desire to see Scotland independent.

As i said in my previous post to you, the referendum is about Scotland making decisions for ourselves James not whether the SNP speaks for the people or not.

Could you also answer my question to you, as you are probably going to vote NO could tell me why you think giving the Tory party the green light to rule Scotland as they see fit is going to benefit the people of Scotland?

Posted by: Dylan 20th Jan 2014, 01:18pm

It is not a straight fight between the SNP and the Tories.

The people of Scotland know this.!

Posted by: john.mcn 20th Jan 2014, 01:23pm

Do you not agree that the only way the Scottish electorate can ensure we are never governed by Westminster tories is to vote YES next year?
Is it not true that as a 'voting block' Scotland has far less input into who leads the next UK parliament than a few counties in the SE of England?

Posted by: JAGZ1876 20th Jan 2014, 01:46pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 20th Jan 2014, 01:35pm) *
It is not a straight fight between the SNP and the Tories.

The people of Scotland know this.!


Then why do you keep referring to Alex Salmond and the SNP?

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 20th Jan 2014, 05:26pm

I do not understand why some people have a hard time getting their heads around the simple HOME TRUTH that, after independence, come our first FREE Scottish 2016 Elections, we are NO LONGER strangled into voting for either any of the Big 3 Unionist Parties, (and I`m being generous here catagorising the LibDem Sellouts as a Big Party), or the SNP.

The very reason FOR VOTING FOR OUR INDEPENDENCE is to be able to replace this "closed shop" in the first place.

For those slugheads who (knee-jerk) reply, "It`ll just be more of the same..." Oh really? Freed from the undemocratic British "democratic" voting system, I fancy there`ll be no shortage of new candidates come polling day 2016. And we will be SPOILED for choice.

And that`s why Westminster`s shitting themselves. Cos then the Welsh and English Morlocks will wake up and realise they don`t have to be limited to a microscopic vested-interest cartel in their backyard either.

yes.gif yes.gif yes.gif

Posted by: Dylan 20th Jan 2014, 06:44pm

Britain is a Democracy.

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 20th Jan 2014, 07:16pm

How can it be? Its` political electoral system DOES NOT have one-person one-vote. Well? Unless, that is, the definition of "democracy" has been radically altered.

Here`s the dictionary definition of "democracy".

1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

2. a state having such a form of government.

3. a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.

4. political or social equality; democratic spirit.

5. the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.


You will note the word "equal" in there in the context of describing electoral systems. As in "one-person one vote". I also do not see the inclusion in there of an electorate where, thanks to gerrymandering, certain leafy English shires have disproportionate clout over the Metropolitan Morlocks on who will run the show.

Posted by: john.mcn 20th Jan 2014, 07:27pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 20th Jan 2014, 07:01pm) *
Britain is a Democracy.


Labour, stuffed ballots and postal votes.....yeah right!!!

tongue.gif

Posted by: Dylan 20th Jan 2014, 07:41pm

?????

Posted by: Talisman 21st Jan 2014, 01:17am

QUOTE (Dylan @ 20th Jan 2014, 07:01pm) *
Britain is a Democracy.

You may be confusing the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Nothern Ireland with a country you refer to as "Britain" The United Kingdom was Scotland and England. Nothern Ireland as a part of that Union did not come into being until the "partition" of Ireland in the 1920s Nothern Ireland never existed as a democratic part of the United Kingdom as most its inhabitants were never empowered by a democratic vote until most recent years. As for Scotland; when did they ever (since the 30s) vote for anything other than a vast majority of Labour politicians, who when they took their seats in the democratic kingdom of Greater London, promptly dismissed all thoughts of a Scotland from their minds. Democracy begins and ends in Westminster.

Posted by: GG 26th Jan 2014, 09:23pm

QUOTE
Scottish independence within SNP’s grasp - poll

Alex Salmond is within reach of victory in the independence referendum, according to an exclusive poll showing that support for the cause has grown dramatically by five percentage points over the last four months.

The largest swing towards a Yes vote recorded so far in the campaign is revealed today in an ICM survey for Scotland on Sunday, which has found that support for independence has grown from 32 per cent to 37 per cent since September.

The surge in those backing Yes was accompanied by a corresponding drop in No support by five percentage points from 49 per cent in September to 44 per cent currently.

The poll also found that when the 19 per cent who said they didn’t know how they would vote were excluded, support for Yes is at 46 per cent compared with 54 per cent who said they would vote No.

There was more good news for Yes Scotland, when the “don’t knows” were pressed further on their views on independence. When they disclosed how they were “most likely” to vote, the results were factored into the equation and the pollsters found that support for independence stood at 47 per cent compared with 53 per cent in favour of No. ...

Full story here:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-within-snp-s-grasp-poll-1-3281655

GG.

Posted by: rossmckenzie 26th Jan 2014, 09:57pm

Always been a believer in an independent Scotland and will definitely vote yes but always found myself to be in a minority with family and friends...Something has happened over the last few months and now find people I know to be considering a yes vote....it's early days yet but perhaps at last Scots will decide we can and should manage our own affairs.

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 27th Jan 2014, 07:06pm

QUOTE (rossmckenzie @ 26th Jan 2014, 10:14pm) *
Always been a believer in an independent Scotland and will definitely vote yes but always found myself to be in a minority with family and friends...Something has happened over the last few months and now find people I know to be considering a yes vote....it's early days yet but perhaps at last Scots will decide we can and should manage our own affairs.


They have finally saw thru the ConLib "Never Had It So Good" bullsh*t and accept Milliband won`t be charging around Parliment Square on a big white horse come May 2015.

Practicality, it`s called. Making the best of a difficult choice.

thumbup.gif thumbup.gif thumbup.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 27th Jan 2014, 08:21pm

QUOTE (rossmckenzie @ 26th Jan 2014, 10:14pm) *
Always been a believer in an independent Scotland and will definitely vote yes but always found myself to be in a minority with family and friends...Something has happened over the last few months and now find people I know to be considering a yes vote....it's early days yet but perhaps at last Scots will decide we can and should manage our own affairs.


Hopefully more people are realising that with a YES vote it's us that pick which party wins the elections, not a few counties down south.

Posted by: wombat 27th Jan 2014, 08:41pm

QUOTE (Ruchazie Rat @ 27th Jan 2014, 07:23pm) *
They have finally saw thru the ConLib "Never Had It So Good" bullsh*t and accept Milliband won`t be charging around Parliment Square on a big white horse come May 2015.

Practicality, it`s called. Making the best of a difficult choice.

thumbup.gif thumbup.gif thumbup.gif


kinda like hedging yer bet's ?

Posted by: Kemedian 29th Jan 2014, 10:36pm

So this is what it looks like.

Ignoring their nagging independence issue, is it true the SNP can do no wrong, unless of course you're not Scottish ?

Posted by: DannyH 29th Jan 2014, 11:31pm

QUOTE (Talisman @ 21st Jan 2014, 01:34am) *
You may be confusing the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Nothern Ireland with a country you refer to as "Britain" The United Kingdom was Scotland and England. Nothern Ireland as a part of that Union did not come into being until the "partition" of Ireland in the 1920s Nothern Ireland never existed as a democratic part of the United Kingdom as most its inhabitants were never empowered by a democratic vote until most recent years. As for Scotland; when did they ever (since the 30s) vote for anything other than a vast majority of Labour politicians, who when they took their seats in the democratic kingdom of Greater London, promptly dismissed all thoughts of a Scotland from their minds. Democracy begins and ends in Westminster.


Hello Talisman

I note you state that the United Kingdom was Scotland and England. During my National Service in the 1950's, some of my comrades were Welshmen. Could you explain why they were serving in the UK army? Were the Welsh considered to be outside of the United Kingdom, but eligible to fight on behalf of the United Kingdom?

Regards

Danny Harris

Posted by: Talisman 30th Jan 2014, 12:17am

QUOTE (DannyH @ 29th Jan 2014, 11:48pm) *
Hello Talisman

I note you state that the United Kingdom was Scotland and England. During my National Service in the 1950's, some of my comrades were Welshmen. Could you explain why they were serving in the UK army? Were the Welsh considered to be outside of the United Kingdom, but eligible to fight on behalf of the United Kingdom?

Regards

Danny Harris


Danny, my understanding is that Wales has not existed as anything but part of England since the 13th century. Prior to that there was a brief period around 1245 when the Vatican recognised a principality of "North Wales" for a brief period. Wales is a geographical entity and was never a single sovereign country.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 30th Jan 2014, 08:34am

QUOTE (DannyH @ 29th Jan 2014, 11:48pm) *
Hello Talisman

I note you state that the United Kingdom was Scotland and England. During my National Service in the 1950's, some of my comrades were Welshmen. Could you explain why they were serving in the UK army? Were the Welsh considered to be outside of the United Kingdom, but eligible to fight on behalf of the United Kingdom?

Regards

Danny Harris


Hi Danny, i hope you don't mind me answering this, i am really surprised you didn't know this,

At the time of the Act of Union (1707) Wales had already been annexed by England and to the English Crown centuries before, that is why the first male of every English/British monarch take's the title "Prince of Wales", so Wales is not a Kingdom but a Principality.

Posted by: john.mcn 30th Jan 2014, 08:35am

Wales was annexed by England and had no separate monarchy.

Posted by: angel 30th Jan 2014, 11:16am

from Wikipedia ..

QUOTE
Since the Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542, which formally incorporated all of Wales within the Kingdom of England, there has been no geographical or constitutional basis for describing any of the territory of Wales as a principality, although the term has occasionally been used in an informal sense to describe the country, and in relation to the honorary title of Prince of Wales.

Posted by: DannyH 6th Feb 2014, 11:23pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 30th Jan 2014, 08:51am) *
Hi Danny, i hope you don't mind me answering this, i am really surprised you didn't know this,

At the time of the Act of Union (1707) Wales had already been annexed by England and to the English Crown centuries before, that is why the first male of every English/British monarch take's the title "Prince of Wales", so Wales is not a Kingdom but a Principality.


Hello again JAGZ

We seem to keep meeting up in different topics.

You are quite right to be surprised that I didn't know that Wales is a annex of England.

I will lay the blame on my Canadian school teachers, who insisted in teaching me Canadian history.
That's my excuse and I am sticking to it. Mind you, you didn't know Canada had been invaded by some Americans near Niagara Falls, did you? See, you didn't get Canadian history at school did you?

Al the best

Danny Harris

Posted by: JAGZ1876 7th Feb 2014, 08:08am

QUOTE (DannyH @ 6th Feb 2014, 11:40pm) *
See, you didn't get Canadian history at school did you?

Al the best

Danny Harris


I didn't get Scottish history at school either Danny angry.gif

Posted by: Dylan 7th Feb 2014, 09:01am

I did.!

Primary and Secondary. ??????

Posted by: bilbo.s 7th Feb 2014, 09:05am

QUOTE (Dylan @ 7th Feb 2014, 10:18am) *
I did.!

Primary and Secondary. ??????


Aye me too, but we're coffin dodgers, Dylan. That just shows how Scottish identity has been deliberately and systematically eroded since our schooldays. I was amazed to realize this, on another thread a while ago. It seemed that nobody under 60 had had any Scottish history taught.

Posted by: john.mcn 7th Feb 2014, 10:02am



No Scottish history in my school and i took it right through secondary.

Posted by: bilbo.s 7th Feb 2014, 11:18am

I can truthfully say that, in my day, the accent was quite heavily on Scottish history.

Posted by: john.mcn 7th Feb 2014, 12:27pm

http://peterabell.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/vote-yes-to-save-union.html

QUOTE
To those intending to vote No I say, if you value the best of the old union, then think of how it will be put in jeopardy by failure to take this opportunity to forge anew the relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK. Think how much better together we will be if we create a new union. A reformed association which preserves all that is desirable and effective about what has been developed over the years but places this in the context of a political relationship fit for our times and the future. A relationship that is strong, not in the facile sense subscribed to by British nationalists, but in the sense of being robust and durable. A relationship that respects the differences between nations while cherishing the social and cultural ties among people. A true partnership of equals.

All of this is possible. It requires only the goodwill and commonality of interest that already exists. And the confidence to vote Yes.

Posted by: Tally Rand 8th Feb 2014, 09:36am

To my endless disappointment I studied history in Scotland up to H.S.C. From year one I was taught about everything from the French Revolution and its' historical context; the entity of the Empire of British India and the Mutiny (but not the justification for it on the part of the Indians.) The restoration of Charles II, who on account of being forced to add his seal or signature to the "Covenant on his coronation by the Covenanters in Scotland, held the Scots and their country in eternal contempt. (We were never taught that part of it.) It seems to me that our history was sanitised in what appears to me now to be a benign and condescending manner in order to avoid any semblance of national sentiment.
P.S. I am over 67.

Posted by: GG 27th Mar 2014, 08:22pm

Looks like Kevin McKenna thinks that the Union is already lost, following "a lacklustre campaign against independence".

QUOTE
Scottish referendum: could they make it any easier for the Nats?

Is there any bribe or blandishment that the Tories will not use as the prospect of losing a quarter of their kingdom looms? In last week's budget, a sinister new low was reached by the Tories, brutish and un-British in its conception. It was an obvious response to recent polling on the independence referendum, which has consistently shown that working-class people are more likely to vote yes. It's the "let's just jolly well ensure that the blighters stay out of the polling booths on 18 September by enticing them into pubs and bingo halls" strategy.

There are occasions when the rest of us get to see what Britain looks like through the eyes of David Cameron and George Osborne. When they occur, they are delightful to behold and should be cherished. Thus last week we learned that, to David and George, Britain's less affluent neighbourhoods look like a painting by Hogarth. There they all are: the women spilling out of gin palaces, their children starving in their arms, their menfolk spending what remains of their benefits on a last slurp of ale and a squeeze from a dancing girl. It can only be a matter of time before tax relief can be obtained from keeping whippets and pigeons. ...

Full article here:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/23/scottish-referendum-nats-independence

GG.

Posted by: tamhickey 29th Mar 2014, 07:55am

When I think about the Independence debate, what springs to mind is not separaton or divorce from the other partner, rather it's more like a younger member of the family coming of age and deciding to make their own way in the world. They no longer want to exist on pocket money, but to move forward and advance themselves. the familial ties will never be broken though, as there is so much that binds them together by way of shared experience and history, though we will be more free to make new friendships and relationships with others. We will have learned from the mistakes of the past and will do as all the young do: planning a better future for ourselves. Yes, mistakes may well be made along the way, but they will be our mistakes to make and correct. This should upset nobody, for who, despite their worries doesn't wish the best to the youngster in the end? The initial threats of witholding any assistance soon dissipate when you see how determined, and how well planned the younger person is.

It's now becoming clear that the YES campaign are garnering more support, but should we win, we have to sit down and support our fellow Scots who disagree. We're all Jock Tampsons bairns, no matter who you support and we should all remember to accommodate and respect the views of others.