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> Uk Independence Referendum - Brexit, Yes or No on EU membership
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JAGZ1876
post 13th Feb 2017, 08:42am
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QUOTE (john.mcn @ 13th Feb 2017, 01:24am) *
I'm sure you'd love to get away with spreading your 'alt facts'.
whatever happened to the O.B.E guy from Woking.

As per usual you were excusing away a tax rise that was going to hit me in the pocket because A, it's an SNP policy and B It isn't going to cost you anything. More taxes as long as its not you paying eh?

Having actually paid cooncil tax under Labour I can assure you it has never went up 10.5% in any year


They just need to point out recent SNP tax rises and tell them theres more where that came from...duh!! rolleyes.gif


So anything that contradicts your agenda is now "alt facts"? laugh.gif

OBE is still there, he just posts under different names

I'm not excusing any tax rise, but after ten years of SNP council tax freezes the inevitable was always bound to happen but as you point out it's only a small percent of the population that will be affected by any rise.

How do you know i won't be getting a council tax rise?

You're coming across as a bit of a snob John.

I never said Labour would have increased council tax by 10.5% in one year, but had they been in power over the last ten years then it would have been more than 10.5% in the decade, and then some.

I think you'll find most of the electorate would disagree with you about "recent SNP tax rises and tell them theres more where that came from", and appreciate that the SG has protected them from Westminster austerity cuts (there's more where that came from...duh!! rolleyes.gif ) including the hated bedroom tax.
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bilbo.s
post 13th Feb 2017, 02:03pm
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/f...deny-conscience


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Just because we disagree doesn't mean I don't like you, and just because I don't like you doesn't mean I disagree with you.
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bilbo.s
post 13th Feb 2017, 03:25pm
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"A reply I got from Dick Taverne
QUOTE
Falling off a Cliff
The British Parliamentary system, inspired by John Locke, Edmund Burke, John Stuart Mill, and many others who believed in a system of checks and balances to guarantee our liberties, has in the past been much admired as a model of liberal democracy, one that has enabled the peaceful evolution that has been an almost unique part of our history. Today it has been superseded. Jean-Jacques Rousseau, the champion of the doctrine that the Will of the People must always prevail, a doctrine much admired by autocrats ever since the days of Robespierre and the Committee of Public safety, is now installed in Westminster instead. Speaker after speaker in the House of Commons debates on Article 50 declared that, although he or she voted Remain and believed Brexit was not in the national interest, the referendum vote represents the ultimate expression of democracy and therefore the ”Will of the People” must be obeyed.
The logic of their argument leads to some strange conclusions. Even if it becomes clear that no agreement can be reached at the end of the two years allowed by article 50, or only one which entails the hardest of hard Brexits, making all of us, especially the poor, much poorer, MPs must still vote to Leave – because they must abide by the June vote even if it forces them to act like lemmings.
Majorities are not always right. There have been times when the public were later forced to admit they were disastrously wrong. In 1938 Chamberlain came back from Berchtesgaden with a piece of paper declaring “Peace in our Time.” His message was almost universally acclaimed. Only a few dissented: Churchill, Macmillan, a young Heath and several leaders of the Labour Party. They were denounced as warmongers. Then Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia and proved how disastrously wrong the majority had been.
The Will of the People does not automatically represent or serve the national interest. Before the second world war Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin all commanded overwhelming public support- - That hardly made them democrats, or leaders who left their subjects better off. There is no doubt that today Putin and Erdogan are among the most popular populists. Are these leaders, who suppress dissent and trample on the rule of law, therefore democrats?
Another dangerous new constitutional doctrine has been introduced by Mrs May and apparently accepted by the Commons. The referendum vote, it appears, is not only to be sacrosanct but irreversible. Mrs May made a concession, welcomed by some Labour leaders as well as most Conservatives, which was in effect a worthless sop. MPs and peers will be allowed a vote on whether to accept a final Brexit deal, achieved against an almost impossible timetable and therefore unlikely to be a very favourable one, or walk away from any agreement - and jump over a cliff. No question of asking her to seek better terms. Much more important, no question of a second referendum to give people a chance to change their minds because circumstances have changed, or because the promises made by Brexit supporters have proved to be no more than pipedreams.
In fact circumstances have changed. Donald Trump was elected President. He has pledged to end the era when the US led the world as the champion of free trade. He threatens a trade war with China. So much for the Brexiteers’ promise of a bonanza of free trade deals once we have left the Customs Union. Worse still, having vowed to abandon the European Union, Mrs May is driven into the arms of someone whose election (like the Brexit vote) was enthusiastically welcomed by every protectionist and nationalist in Europe, who seeks to destabilize the European Union itself, who has questioned the importance of NATO and who seeks a new deal with Putin as a strong man whom he admires as someone he can do business with. As for his values as an ally of the democratic West, these seem to include allowing the possible use of state torture to counter terrorism, because “torture works”.
Public opinion has not yet shifted perceptibly since June. If it does not change before the end of next year, it is doubtful if Brexit can still be avoided. But if the forecasts of the IFS and other independent economists prove right and living standards start to decline, or if the prospect of swapping Trump’s America for the EU as our main partner repels a majority of the public, the June verdict must be open to review. And a review of a referendum vote must obviously be through a new referendum. Dictatorships do not allow people to change their minds. In a democracy, no decision should ever be irreversible.
Dick Taverne
House of Lords


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bilbo.s
post 13th Feb 2017, 06:30pm
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http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-storie...rexit_1_4887284


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john.mcn
post 13th Feb 2017, 07:17pm
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QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 13th Feb 2017, 08:42am) *
So anything that contradicts your agenda is now "alt facts"? laugh.gif


Jagz, the only thing contradicting here is you with your own posts


QUOTE
I'm not excusing any tax rise, but after ten years of SNP council tax freezes the inevitable was always bound to happen but as you point out it's only a small percent of the population that will be affected by any rise.

Says not excusing the tax rise then follows it up by excusing it as a 'small percent of the population that will be affected', Jagz it is over 500,000 housholders that's affected (around 25%). How in hell does the cushy lifestyle of a politician with their expenses accounts and second homes appreciate the difference between what is owned through hard work and what is handed to them, those 'expensive' home are not free and the owners have already been paying higher council tax since it was introduced

QUOTE
How do you know i won't be getting a council tax rise?

I know that you dont live in any of the houses affected by the SNP bedroom tax because if you did you would already know that it would apply to your house.
QUOTE
You're coming across as a bit of a snob John.

Not me who says others are inferior to himself. So in your wee bubble of SNPsville anyone who objects to a tax thats almost 3 times higher than others is a snob.. gotcha, guess that makes me and everyone who sees this as a BS hit against working class families a snob then, and contrary to those politicians earning several times the income of people like me, 'we' are not rich!!! Have you or that pampered lot even seen the prices of modern homes, are we to all move back to tenement living and shared toilets
QUOTE
I never said Labour would have increased council tax by 10.5% in one year, but had they been in power over the last ten years then it would have been more than 10.5% in the decade, and then some.

And how do you know that, the first council tax freeze happened under a Labour council.
No doubt though if council tax went up by similar amount under a Labour administration you would be up in arms.
On a similar note, if DLA or carers were cut I'm sure you wouldn't excuse it away as you've had it xx years and should consider yourself lucky would you.

QUOTE
I think you'll find most of the electorate would disagree with you about "recent SNP tax rises and tell them theres more where that came from", and appreciate that the SG has protected them from Westminster austerity cuts (there's more where that came from...duh!! rolleyes.gif ) including the hated bedroom tax.



Ahh the 'silent majority' , knew it would only be a matter of time till you alluded to them laugh.gif

Jagz a tax rise is the same as a cut to others yet you seem to be more sympathetic to them, guess to you it depends on who wields the axe, are you aware that austerity is reducing the deficit through cuts and tax rises, what on earth do you think the SG is doing with its budgets.

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“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”
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Dykejumper
post 17th Feb 2017, 02:16am
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Tony Bliar to give yet another speech today on the folly of brexit ! along the lines of we are
destroying the future for generations to come.
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john.mcn
post 18th Feb 2017, 11:29pm
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Wow, Blair wanting another vote so we can change our minds, thats nice of him, I'd much rather seeing him awaiting the vote of 12 citizens (or 15 here)
He should've spoke more before the vote, the win vote would be higher wink.gif


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Dykejumper
post 20th Feb 2017, 12:27am
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Time for some levity,I gather this a favourite of Wee Eck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAPnXvo7OQo


of course they could be singing about Indy2
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*Billy Boil*
post 20th Feb 2017, 10:34pm
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QUOTE (DannyH @ 8th Feb 2017, 12:00am) *
Isn't it odd that someone who lives in Spain, another that lives in Canada,and another that lives Australia, are the ones that have plenty to say about the people who live in Scotland, on a topic that has more importance for us than them?

Just saying

Danny Harris

My father brought the goods that kept the U.K. (and Scotland) alive during the battle of the Atlantic. His brothers fought in Crete and North Africa ( all from Glasgow). My mother from Brigton manned the Royal Artillery batteries shooting down Germans on their way to London. My grandfather was wounded twice on the Western front before he was out of his teens. I was also in uniform all my young life from cadets to reservist. Please don't in your fits of jealous rage tell those of us who live in former British territories that we have no concern with Scotland when my family slept under that big "Glesga Bridge" when disposed from their Highland lands.
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DannyH
post 20th Feb 2017, 11:26pm
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QUOTE (Billy Boil @ 20th Feb 2017, 10:34pm) *
My father brought the goods that kept the U.K. (and Scotland) alive during the battle of the Atlantic. His brothers fought in Crete and North Africa ( all from Glasgow). My mother from Brigton manned the Royal Artillery batteries shooting down Germans on their way to London. My grandfather was wounded twice on the Western front before he was out of his teens. I was also in uniform all my young life from cadets to reservist. Please don't in your fits of jealous rage tell those of us who live in former British territories that we have no concern with Scotland when my family slept under that big "Glesga Bridge" when disposed from their Highland lands.



Hello Billy

I don't see where my fits of jealous rage comes from. This topic is the UK Independence Referendum.

My two grandfathers fought in the first world war. One of them alongside one of his sons. Another son was killed while serving with the Royal Navy. I could go on, but what is the point. Millions of us could repeat the story of your family.

You joined the cadets. So what? I was conscripted then compulsory service in the Reserves. So what?
Nothing to do with this topic.

My concern is for the welfare of future generations of Scottish children who live in this country, not for the welfare of future generations of children in Australia, in Spain or in Canada.

By all means you are entitled to express an opinion on Brexit, but please don't try to tell us what is best for future generations of Scottish children. These are the generations which will be affected by post Brexit, not the descendsnts of immigrans from Scotland.

I have nothing but repect for the men who sailed the seas during war-time. I have first hand knowledge having crossed the Atlantic in both directions during World War II. I saw at first hand the hardships these brave men suffered. One of the ships I sailed in was sunk during the war. Two of my uncles were were on ships which were torpedoed. They survived, but had to go back to sea. You are not the only one on the GG website who has a story to tell. I cannot for the life of me see what the relevance your family has to do with this topic.

You mention your relatives slept under the Heilan Man's Umbrella Bridge. Well there are hundreds of Scottish people in 2017 sleeping rough, and relying on food banks to survive. So nothing has changed for some people.

Danny Harris

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JAGZ1876
post 21st Feb 2017, 08:00pm
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QUOTE (DannyH @ 20th Feb 2017, 11:26pm) *
Well there are hundreds of Scottish people in 2017 sleeping rough, and relying on food banks to survive. So nothing has changed for some people.

Danny Harris


And it's going to get worse when the consequences of Brexit start hitting home. sad.gif
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DannyH
post 21st Feb 2017, 11:02pm
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QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 21st Feb 2017, 08:00pm) *
And it's going to get worse when the consequences of Brexit start hitting home. :(



Well Jagz, I guess that's the SNP off the hook, eh? They have found another excuse for blaming everyone else but themselves.

Danny
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