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> Uk Independence Referendum - Brexit, Yes or No on EU membership
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ktv
post 1st Feb 2016, 04:12pm
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QUOTE (Kemedian @ 1st Feb 2016, 04:15pm) *
It's because we voted to remain a part of the UK that Scotland is even having this referendum.


an indy Scotland could have very well had a referendum on membership of the EU after a yes vote, especially if the rUK was having one so your using a crystal ball in saying that.
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Kemedian
post 1st Feb 2016, 04:25pm
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This EU ref is a natural progression on from the Indyref. A vote to remain represents a double-lock on the current greater UK status quo, like it or not. Hence the SNP's initial opposition and the Party's subsequent move to propose another Indyref in the event of a Brexit.

That was a strategic gamble by the SNP. An unnecessary one, which I think the Party shall regret when it rebounds awkwardly following a positive result for both Unions.
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JAGZ1876
post 1st Feb 2016, 06:50pm
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QUOTE (Kemedian @ 1st Feb 2016, 03:54pm) *
Back when the question was still should the UK remain, yes or no...


If a week is a long time in politics then seven months is an eternity, or am i not allowed to reevaluate my position let alone have a change of mind?
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john.mcn
post 1st Feb 2016, 07:01pm
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The Scottish IndyRef was not about the EU to me, i do think that if Scotland voted YES then mountains would have been moved to make sure membership of the club continued, thats not to say i'm Pro EU i'm just stating what i think would have happened to secure all those waters . I would have wanted a further vote on the EU as well as other clubs like Nato and would have voted for parties who proposed that in a manifesto..
The upcoming ref could be seen to be about the UK reinventing itself, there is still work to be done on the constitutional side of what the UK is and how it should be governed and the EU vote is part of that. It might be that if this referendum is carried out before the UK sorts itself out the public may very likely vote to leave the EU, which i'm very happy with.


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DannyH
post 1st Feb 2016, 11:43pm
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QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 1st Feb 2016, 03:19pm) *
I'm sure ktv will reply to you, but Scotland voting YES in the Indy referendum would not have meant us leaving the EU, and when (if) there is a EU referendum Scotland will still be part of the UK, so no contradiction whatsoever.


Hello my old pal Jagz

You have got me back on the EU again! Scotland is not a member of the EU. The UK is. So if the Yes vote for Independence had been successful, Scotland would have to applied for EU membership. One of the problems the SNP faced was currency. We don't use the Euro, so we woudn't have been entitiled to use the Euro. I voted for Independence, but the EU is a different issue.

Regards

Danny
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JAGZ1876
post 2nd Feb 2016, 12:10am
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QUOTE (DannyH @ 1st Feb 2016, 11:51pm) *
Hello my old pal Jagz

You have got me back on the EU again! Scotland is not a member of the EU. The UK is. So if the Yes vote for Independence had been successful, Scotland would have to applied for EU membership. One of the problems the SNP faced was currency. We don't use the Euro, so we woudn't have been entitiled to use the Euro. I voted for Independence, but the EU is a different issue.

Regards

Danny


You're right Danny my old pal, the EU is a different issue, the rest of your post is a moot point.
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Kemedian
post 2nd Feb 2016, 12:10am
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QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 1st Feb 2016, 06:58pm) *
If a week is a long time in politics then seven months is an eternity, or am i not allowed to reevaluate my position let alone have a change of mind?

Call it what you like, I call it convenient. eyebrow.gif

You may not have too long left (probably far less time than you want) to decide.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35456633
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JAGZ1876
post 2nd Feb 2016, 09:54am
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QUOTE (Kemedian @ 2nd Feb 2016, 12:18am) *
Call it what you like, I call it convenient. eyebrow.gif


laugh.gif
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Kemedian
post 2nd Feb 2016, 05:05pm
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Who said the PM wasn't in favour of membership?

We don't need another lengthy Political debate, do we?

Such a spirit of compromise would have benefited the Indyref, in my opinion. Hopefully the EU Heads of State will agree later in the month, and allow us a quick referendum. smile.gif

QUOTE (Donald Tusk, President of the European Council @ 1st Feb, 2016)
Keeping the unity of the European Union is the biggest challenge for all of us and so it is the key objective of my mandate. It is in this spirit that I put forward a proposal for a new settlement of the United Kingdom within the EU. To my mind it goes really far in addressing all the concerns raised by Prime Minister Cameron. The line I did not cross, however, were the principles on which the European project is founded.

I deeply believe that our community of interests is much stronger than what divides us. To be, or not to be together, that is the question which must be answered not only by the British people in a referendum, but also by the other 27 members of the EU in the next two weeks.

This has been a difficult process and there are still challenging negotiations ahead. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. I am convinced that the proposal is a good basis for a compromise. It could not have been drafted without the close and good cooperation of the European Commission. In order to facilitate this process the Commission also made political declarations that are included in this package.

Let me briefly refer to all the four baskets of the proposal.

On economic governance, the draft Decision of the Heads sets out principles to ensure mutual respect between the Member States taking part in further deepening of the Economic and Monetary Union and those which do not. By doing that we can pave the way for the further integration within the euro area while safeguarding the rights and competences of non-participating Member States.

The respect for these principles is backed up by a draft Decision establishing a mechanism that while giving necessary reassurances on the concerns of non-euro area Member States, cannot constitute a veto nor delay urgent decisions. The exact conditions for triggering this mechanism remain to be further discussed.

On competitiveness, the draft Decision of the Heads, together with a more detailed European Council Declaration and a draft Commission Declaration, will set out our commitment to increase efforts to enhance competitiveness. We will regularly assess progress in simplifying legislation and reducing burden on business so that red tape is cut.

On sovereignty, the proposed Decision of the Heads recognises that in light of the United Kingdom's special situation under the Treaties, it is not committed to further political integration. It also reinforces respect for subsidiarity, and I propose that the Member States discontinue the consideration of a draft legislative act where a number of national parliaments object to it on the grounds of subsidiarity, unless the concerns raised can be accommodated. The importance of respecting the opt-out regime of Protocols 21 and 22, as well as national security responsibilities is also underlined.

On social benefits and free movement, we need to fully respect the current treaties, in particular the principles of freedom of movement and non-discrimination. Therefore the proposed solution to address the UK concerns builds on the clarification of the interpretation of current rules, including a draft Commission Declaration on a number of issues relating to better fighting abuse of free movement.

The draft Decision of the Heads notes, in particular, the Commission's intention to propose changes to EU legislation as regards the export of child benefits and the creation of a safeguard mechanism to respond to exceptional situations of inflow of workers from other Member States. A draft Commission Declaration also relates to this mechanism. This approach, as well as the exact duration of the application of such a mechanism need to be further discussed at our level.

Most of the substance of this proposal takes the form of a legally binding Decision of the Heads of State or Governments. We should also be prepared to discuss the possible incorporation of the substance of a few elements covered by the Decision into the Treaties at the time of their next revision.

Our Sherpas and Permanent Representatives will meet on Friday this week to have the first discussion of the proposal. The clear objective is to have an agreement of all 28 at the February European Council. To succeed we will all need to compromise. To fail would be compromising our common future.

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john.mcn
post 2nd Feb 2016, 06:51pm
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TLDR;

Cameron does a deal with EU bosses who now have to take it to the other members where any one of them could veto it... If it passes then cameron can go to the people and offer a referendum... Go back to a common market and even i'll vote to stay in..


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“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.”
Mikhail Gorbachev
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Dykejumper
post 2nd Feb 2016, 06:59pm
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The British people have been sold a Euro pup before,lets hope they dont buy another.
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Kemedian
post 3rd Feb 2016, 01:33pm
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Reading past the front page laugh.gif, which is actually about immigration, there is sign of good progress towards a slightly better Europe.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/...overeignty.html

55% say no thanks.
Red card.
End of. Sorted.

That's Democracy. (Or, so the theory goes, in many places).


Don't panic!


Attached Image
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Dykejumper
post 4th Feb 2016, 11:58am
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From the Fench paper Le Monde:
“It’s all a sham”

Arnaud Leparmentier of French Daily Le Monde comments on the deal, “The show can begin. David Cameron’s match against the Europeans, to persuade the Brits to stay in the EU, gets under way…It’s a match, of course. But it’s a wrestling match. It’s all a sham. [People] pretend to be in pain, but they are complicit. One makes noise, but one doesn’t solve anything in substance…This wrestling match must flatter the Brits’ pride, so that they are persuaded not to choose the open sea.”

Meanwhile, Florentin Collomp, the London correspondent for Le Figaro is misses the point of trying to reform the EU, leading with the headline, “In Brussels, Cameron has first and foremost tried to save his skin.”
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Now of course we will have Cameron and La Sturgeon both arguing that we are 'better together' in the EU
delicious irony.
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Dykejumper
post 4th Feb 2016, 11:59am
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From the Fench paper Le Monde:
“It’s all a sham”

Arnaud Leparmentier of French Daily Le Monde comments on the deal, “The show can begin. David Cameron’s match against the Europeans, to persuade the Brits to stay in the EU, gets under way…It’s a match, of course. But it’s a wrestling match. It’s all a sham. [People] pretend to be in pain, but they are complicit. One makes noise, but one doesn’t solve anything in substance…This wrestling match must flatter the Brits’ pride, so that they are persuaded not to choose the open sea.”

Meanwhile, Florentin Collomp, the London correspondent for Le Figaro is misses the point of trying to reform the EU, leading with the headline, “In Brussels, Cameron has first and foremost tried to save his skin.”
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now of course we will have Cameron and La Sturgeon both arguing that we are 'better together' in the EU
delicious irony.
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carmella
post 4th Feb 2016, 06:32pm
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Aye, funny in tit that we're better together but only in the EU.

Bollox to use a word from the vocabulary of ktv.



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It is possible to fail in many ways...while to succeed is possible only in one way.
- Aristotle
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