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Glasgow Boards/Forums _ Glasgow News Blog _ Should Glasgow Apologise For Slavery?

Posted by: GG 29th Apr 2013, 07:29pm

Calls are growing in the Scottish media for Glasgow to apologise for its alleged historical inks to the slavery. Although the city – unlike some English cities – had no direct involvement in the slave trade, supporters of a call for Glasgow to apologise claim that the city benefited because the 'Tobacco Lords' accumulated wealth as a result of slavery.

Last week, Chris Dolan, a Scottish author who has written a book about white workers on Caribbean plantations, said that a public apology by Glasgow for its connections to the slave trade "would be beneficial". Mr Dolan claimed that a Glasgow apology would indicate that the city is willing to own up to its history, adding that the upcoming Commonwealth games in the city in 2014 would be the perfect platform to stage an apology.

Later in the week, the Glaswegian comedienne Elaine C Smith added her voice to a growing number calling for an apology from Glasgow. Baillieston-born Ms Smith said that she had been moved to speak after watching the film Lincoln in the cinema. The former Rab C Nesbitt star added:

QUOTE
"Half of Glasgow was built on the back of slavery [...] Confessing to our past as a nation is also important in the run-up to the referendum, which to me is all about becoming a grown-up country that's as good and as bad as other nations in the world, rather than the beatific one that's apart from all others.

We need to get out of that collective permanent adolescence, where we always blame our parents for everything. I think an apology would show we are a nation ready to look at itself and acknowledge what we were responsible for. Imagine what kind of country we might have become had Robert Burns gone to manage the plantations."

Other voices have since joined the call for Glasgow to apologise, although some commentators prefer to point to the prominent role Glaswegians played in the eventual abolition of the slave trade. Still others say that an apology would be pointless and achieve nothing.

GG.

Posted by: Strangelove 29th Apr 2013, 07:41pm

To what end? All it accomplishes is allowing some douche bags, suffering from White Guilt, to feel good.

Posted by: norrie123 29th Apr 2013, 07:48pm

Its not something that I feel guilty of

No doubt right enough, Slavery was evil


What next, should we apologise for all the sins of previous generations?

Bye for now, norrie

Posted by: tarheels 29th Apr 2013, 07:50pm

HEAR HEAR RIELLY , TARHEELS CHEERS ALL

Posted by: Guest 29th Apr 2013, 07:57pm

Apologise for something I had nothing to do with, don't think so. The government apologising for its role in Slavery, fine go ahead, but I would never agree with Slavery in the first place so should not apologise for something I haven't done, wouldn't do or condone anyone or Nation doing. So again I say why should the normal person be apologised for?

Posted by: Irene Ka 29th Apr 2013, 07:59pm

What is the point of an apology from people who are generations removed from the actual situation? The only apology that would have any value is if the people who were the perpetrators of the crime where the ones making the apology. We can only go forward by behaving in an appropriate way in the society that we now live and making sure that anything akin to this type of behavior never happens again. That is much better than an apology from those who have no real connection to the events.

Of course, it is part of the history of Glasgow and Scotland and should be recorded as such - good or bad.

Posted by: methane 29th Apr 2013, 08:00pm

While slavery is abhorent. I don't see the point unless we also apologised for the other things such as treatment of Italian and Irish immigrants at various times in the past. Scotland should also apologise for its role in the opium trade through Jardine Mathieson. I think it's really attention seeking?

Posted by: Guest 29th Apr 2013, 08:07pm

Chris Dolan is absolutely correct.

He is not asking individuals living in Glasgow today to apologise. He is asking Glasgow as a city and Scotland as a mature nation to acknowledge the role we played at that time in the misery of slavery.

Much of Glasgow's wealth was built on slavery.

Posted by: 27stowst 29th Apr 2013, 08:08pm

So are we to apologise to all the weans who died cleaning chimneys, or down pits, killed in accidents in the factories???? In this country!! We have evolved and I don't feel the need to excuse my ancestors deeds. It certainly wasn't the common man who reaped the benefit of slavery. Of course it was inhumane but my own mother was 'in service'. Who will apologise to her descendants? My uncle died in WWI. Pretty heinous I think. But not looking for an apology, just hoping for no more war.

Posted by: DavidT 29th Apr 2013, 08:08pm

People in various parts of the world (africa included) got rich on the immoral slave trade. The 'tobacco' barons of Glasgow made a fortune from it. Apologising for history serves no purpose. Where would it end? The guilty are dead and gone.
If modern people would allow it to happen again then maybe they should apologise.
I voted no.

Posted by: seadog 29th Apr 2013, 08:12pm

Slavery was legal back then.

Posted by: Kassy 29th Apr 2013, 08:15pm

I agree what is in the past is over with and dig it up to say sorry would not benefit anything.

If you have to apologize for everything that our Ancestors have done you could fill a library on it.

Leave things alone or you end up festering on them and we all no were that leads.

Posted by: Jupiter 29th Apr 2013, 08:28pm

Ive no doubt Glasgow and in particular the wealthy speculators and entrepreneurs hailing from the city were up to their necks in the slave trade and the transportation trade when owners quickly transferred slave ships to prison ships.
The misery and suffering inflicted on untold numbers is well documented.An insidious chapter in British,Scottish and indeed Glasgow history.
Caribeann countries have vast numbers of people with Scottish surnames,eg Grant,Gordon,McDonald,Graham,Stewart to name but a few.
But an apology? Who would be the person to do the apologising?How would it come about? At a gathering of athletes at the Commonwealth two bob Games? And what if the apology is rejected?
Oh,Oh, egg on face! Finally what about the other big country whose tobacco and cotton fields were populated by slaves brought to their shores by Scottish ships ? Sorry America.
I often wonder how these ideas take root?
As a Glaswegian my view it has happened,its regretable but it cannot be undone or mitigated by an apology.


Posted by: medevial 29th Apr 2013, 08:49pm

If someone has a guilt that requires a good scratching, then help another of their choice, in the present. Apologizing for "past wrongs" has no historical or current value. Everyone could apologize for something they've done, and in turn, could be the recipient of apologies from others - the list is endless. The same could be said for cities and countries for that matter. This consideration ignores the historical context of slavery which cannot be altered by unproductive, redundant utterances.

Posted by: Dylan 29th Apr 2013, 08:55pm

We can not go through life apologising for old mistakes and refighting ancient battles.

The time is now.

Move on. !!!

Posted by: Guest 29th Apr 2013, 09:02pm

So does Eve have to apologise to Adam for giving him a bite of her apple.

LOL

Posted by: Jim D 29th Apr 2013, 09:27pm

Having read several reviews of this book - Redlegs, I would think Glasgow would then have to apologise to our fellow Scots women, who were exported to the plantations with the view of trying to attract white men to the plantations.

Personally, I think Mr Dolan is doing some self-publicity.

Posted by: john.mcn 29th Apr 2013, 09:34pm

No, now i'm no history buff and there's probably far more knowledgeable people here when it comes to the history of 'Glasgow' but at the time of 'the slave trade'* Glasgow was far far smaller than what we call it now. To say 1/2 of Glasgow was built on the slave trade may have been true at that time but it is now a far bigger place and it's borders extend far further than they did even at the end of the 19th century.
Anyway if Glasgow should apologise because of guilt by association then why stop there, apologise for child labour making Nike trainers for sale in our shops, hell apologise for that collapsed building because Primark clothes get made there, i'm sure once we start there will be others ashamed at their colour/race/nationality/sex etc who want everyone to apologise for everything . Hell my ancestors were jacobites who from what i was told were treated quite harsh after 1745, where is my apology and while you're at it a nice big fat cheque for all my hurt feelings wink.gif

* i put that there because slavery was here long before that period in time its commonly referred to, and it was here after it's apparent abolition, hell it's probably still going on, if sorry is to be said for anything it's for there not being enough done to stop it now.

Posted by: CAMPSIE 29th Apr 2013, 09:41pm

Why should Glasgow apologise for her part in the slave trade, did not the whole of the Britain gain through the trade of slavery. Yes Slavery was an abomination an not only Glasgow but all the countries involved in slavery should apologise for their part in the slave trade no matter how small, so in effect most of the world has apologises to make. Appallingly slavery is still in existence today only it is done secretively, unlike the days of the great plantation owners. The slave trade's tentacles reached far and wide, and there are few nations where it's effects did not touch them. There should be a universal agreement for a world wide apology for Slavery.

Posted by: john.mcn 29th Apr 2013, 09:41pm

QUOTE (Jim D @ 29th Apr 2013, 09:44pm) *
Having read several reviews of this book - Redlegs, I would think Glasgow would then have to apologise to our fellow Scots women, who were exported to the plantations with the view of trying to attract white men to the plantations.
Personally, I think Mr Dolan is doing some self-publicity.

I watched a youtube about the redlegs of the caribbean, the indentured looked like they were treated at times worse than slaves because the landowners were happy to just get a few years out of them while the slaves were property and they wanted a lifetimes work out of them.

Posted by: *Paulie* 29th Apr 2013, 10:08pm

I suspect Mr. Dolan is attempting to drill up some publicity for his book, very clever ploy.

An apology would be pointless, who would one apologize to? Oprah?

Do you think the descendants of these slaves even know where Glasgow is, let alone expect an apology ?

I hope Mr. Dolan will write another book...about the terrible conditions suffered by generations of my Glasgow family who lived in rat-infested tenements, and worked at menial jobs for pittance wages.

Glaswegians of the past survived so much hardship,it's no wonder they're a tough people who've prospered in other lands, without expecting handouts or apologies, they just got on with it and seized opportunities that were presented. O.K. off my soapbox now!

Answer NO.

Posted by: taurus 29th Apr 2013, 10:19pm

The whole of Britain got rich on some form of slavery,the men down the pits,working for a pittance,the shipyards,the factories,servants in the big estates. The list is endless. Man`s inhumanity to man.It always was and will be.

Posted by: The Callands Rebel 29th Apr 2013, 10:34pm

As a Virginian, I can say unequivocally that this issue of apologizing for slavery here in the USA or England or Scotland is a crock of crap.

You'd think the so called afro-americans were the only people enslaved since the beginning of man.

My great grandfather never own a black before or during our civil War, but he damn sure took out any invading army man of a tyrannical Union government for 4 years who set foot in Virginia.

Our counterparts the Sons of Union VeteranS will tell you "their greats didn't come South to free any Black but to MAINTAIN THE UNION"

I can also relay that the Glasgow city council and city Fathers have shrugged me off many many times to acknowledge "NATIVE GLASGOWMeN who fought for the Confederacy when we placed our markers on their graves, they are as shallow as our officials and only use issues like this for self interests.

So, I won't e surprised when the Glasgow council issues aN "APOLOGY" for slavery.

Thatcher and Lincoln would make a great duo, though from a different Era.

Posted by: gillen4 29th Apr 2013, 10:34pm

Having read the responses to this issue, it's clear we're all of one (sensible) mind! WE in Glasgow now, had no control over slavery then, hence we were not responsible for it. Slavery, as it was then, was abolished. It stopped and we learned from it. That's reparation. Too many real issues today to be dealt with...energies better invested in those I would think.

Posted by: Jazzsaxman 29th Apr 2013, 10:39pm

It's in the past. Get over it. Probably some descendants trying to screw us for money and this is the way to get their foot in the door.. Politicians do what you were voted in to do and stop wasting our money, bunch of freeloaders anyway.

Posted by: *gerry* 29th Apr 2013, 10:56pm

Apologies for our Past Fathers sins? We`d be here all Year,the Past is Dead and Buried We the present generation have got nothing to apologies for apart maybe for letting in the Tory`s.

Posted by: droschke7 29th Apr 2013, 11:07pm

I 'm pretty sure that most intelegent people will agree that a very few rich people profitted on the proceeds of Tobacco but not Glasgow as such. At the time when this happened the majority of Scots actually had a life that was as bad if not worse than the so called Black Slaves. No one says anything about the white slaves and those who were called dindentured who had to work as a slave to repay their debts. The people who actually started the slave trade were Arabs and African Chiefs. Many slaves were captured prisoners of war from intertribal wars in Africa also if you annoyed the chief he would sell you to the next Arab slave trader he saw to earn money for himnself. I don't see African chiefs or Arabs appologizing to the ancestors of slaves so why should we? Justa by not the slave trade was abolished in the UK in 1807, anyone know somebody still alive from then?

Posted by: Toni 29th Apr 2013, 11:08pm

QUOTE (Jazzsaxman @ 29th Apr 2013, 06:56pm) *
It's in the past. Get over it. Probably some descendants trying to screw us for money and this is the way to get their foot in the door.. Politicians do what you were voted in to do and stop wasting our money, bunch of freeloaders anyway.

I so agree with you. I'm sick of those wanting to re-write History to fit in with this idiotic PC world of today.

And don't get me started on those whose ancestors were (supposed to have been) a part of the Highland Clearances. They hold huge chips on their shoulders to this day. They have never ever stepped foot in Scotland (or anywhere else in the UK) yet the bash the English to the point where it would come to blows if face to face. I have at least 1/3 English heritage, 3/4 Scots and am married to an Englishman. It never bothered my Scots friends & neighbours when I lived in Scotland .. so why does it bother a person on the other side of the world who is several generations removed? Why do they feel they have the right to insult me, due to me having a partial English heritage and an English husband?

As you said, it's in the past. Leave it there!

Posted by: Old Sailor 29th Apr 2013, 11:14pm

QUOTE (Guest @ 29th Apr 2013, 01:24pm) *
Chris Dolan is absolutely correct.

He is not asking individuals living in Glasgow today to apologise. He is asking Glasgow as a city and Scotland as a mature nation to acknowledge the role we played at that time in the misery of slavery.

Much of Glasgow's wealth was built on slavery.

Another academic who has discovered God!

Posted by: Old Sailor 29th Apr 2013, 11:15pm

Let us bow to another academic who has found God!

Posted by: davidhendry 30th Apr 2013, 04:37am

Slavery is obviously wrong, to our way of thinking. It wasn't always so. We had our own people transported. Any apologies? Never, they were transported by the great, the good and, obviously the rich. Their descendents are still around and still wield power.

The African slave trade was an Arab industry. The people were already enslaved when bought. Not that this alters anything, but we Brits must shake off the guilt of believing we're responsible for all that ails the world.

Mr. Dolan made a smart move, eh !!!

Davie.




Posted by: Dave Grieve 30th Apr 2013, 06:06am

Does anybody hear the Black descendents of the present owners of the Carribean islands apologizing for grabbing these islands after the native Indian population were exterminated. An act of Genocide in any language in which the slaves took part and a much bigger crime against humanity than slavery will ever be.

The descendents of Black slaves living in America today should go down on their knees and thank God for the fact that their ancestors were taken as slaves in the first place.

As for all the hand wringers if you really want to do something about the horrors of slavery in the present day why don't you start putting pressure on the moslem goverments of the world to put a stop to it, it still goes on and will never stop as it is ingrained in their cultural way of life.

Posted by: Doug1 30th Apr 2013, 07:20am

QUOTE (davidhendry @ 30th Apr 2013, 04:54am) *
Slavery is obviously wrong, to our way of thinking. It wasn't always so. We had our own people transported. Any apologies? Never, they were transported by the great, the good and, obviously the rich. Their descendents are still around and still wield power.

The African slave trade was an Arab industry. The people were already enslaved when bought. Not that this alters anything, but we Brits must shake off the guilt of believing we're responsible for all that ails the world.

Mr. Dolan made a smart move, eh !!!

Davie.

Good post David. A lot of people may not realise that the Arab slave trade was huge and had been going on for centuries and indeed although I could be wrong here but were the Arabs not partly responsible for supplying slaves to the Western slave traders !!

Posted by: davidhendry 30th Apr 2013, 08:09am

QUOTE (Doug1 @ 30th Apr 2013, 07:37am) *
Good post David. A lot of people may not realise that the Arab slave trade was huge and had been going on for centuries and indeed although I could be wrong here but were the Arabs not partly responsible for supplying slaves to the Western slave traders !!

What even more people don't realise, is the trade is alive and well even today. In my travels in the Middle East I met several slaves. All over the Arab world you'll see negro Arabs. All descendents of slaves.

In India they have the same shit but it's called bonded labour. Children are given to secure a loan which, surprise, surprise never gets paid off. Ever. Met a family of four working a field. The landlord ALLOWED them to eat any rats they caught.

Both the east and west coasts of Africa were heavily trafficked by the Arabs. Until very recently Zanzibar was a possession of Oman.

Davie.

Posted by: Scotsman 30th Apr 2013, 08:52am

It was not done in my name and the hand wringers cannot apologise in my name either. The greedy tobacco barons got all the money and mostly they kept it.... the ordinary people of Glasgow never saw any of the wealth!!

And what about our workers who worked as wage slaves in the worst conditions in the industrial world and who lived short and horrid existences making money for the barons. What about them?? Is there going to be an apology to them??

Slavery was possible only because of the Arabs and the African chiefs who took part for their own greedy reasons. And what about the million Europeans who were sold into the slave trade in North Africa. You dont read much about them because it is not PC but instead we are told that we should all feel guilty for the acts of a few selfish and greedy robber barons hundreds of years ago. Aye right!!

Posted by: Doug1 30th Apr 2013, 08:59am

Yes David you are of course quite right. In the wider context of slavery, where on earth do you begin. It's a huge industry which takes in human trafficking, selling women and children into slavery and so on. We often see in our own newspapers about families employing slave labour in their own houses. Eastern Europe is awash with human trafficking. Another thread I think !!

Posted by: *greta* 30th Apr 2013, 09:12am

Didnt think the tory government had abolished slavery the way they tax the ordinary working man in this country. Time to move on ,we are a multiracial society now as any decent new world country should be.

Posted by: james hill 30th Apr 2013, 09:30am

Why should present Glasgow apologise for slavery all those years ago? They never seem to mention the good things that was left behind. I think we have already repaid any dues. (Non-stop aid!)

Posted by: jimmystreet 30th Apr 2013, 10:19am

Whilst slavery is an evil, it still goes on today in various formats throughout the world. I do not expect an apology from the Italians or the Scandanavians for the actions of their countries in the past. The dynamics of the world and peoples behaviour towards one another is continually evolving and we should look for improvement. Whilst there are lessons to be learnt from the past, living in it, dwelling on it and continually going over it does nothing but create an industry out of oppression, guilt and fear, with people profiting from the misery of others. Great cities like Glasgow and Britain should be proud of their past and what we brought to the worlds stage. The good far outweighed the bad

Posted by: john.mcn 30th Apr 2013, 11:15am

QUOTE (*greta* @ 30th Apr 2013, 09:29am) *
Didnt think the tory government had abolished slavery the way they tax the ordinary working man in this country. Time to move on ,we are a multiracial society now as any decent new world country should be.

So the ones that aren't multi racial aren't decent ?

Why must ...i was going to say Europe but it's white countries, anyway why must 'white' countries strive to be multi racial when looking round the world you'll find lots of countries that are closed off to the mass experiment 'multiculturalism' or as it's now re-branded diversity. Are they opening their borders to hundreds of thousands of immigrants a year, i very much doubt it.

Posted by: Mathieson 30th Apr 2013, 12:03pm

What a load of self-seeking nonsense from Mr Dolan and Ms Smith. One with a book to sell and the other with a reputation of professional bleeding-heart lefty to live up to.

Let both of them apologise to their hearts' content if they so wish but don't do it in my name.

Posted by: droschke7 30th Apr 2013, 12:35pm

Are the English going to appologise to Australia, the US, Canada and Scotland? Why do you think so many Australians , Americans and Canadians have Scottish names?

Posted by: Jupiter 30th Apr 2013, 01:49pm

drosschke7, Ive missed your point in that post.

Posted by: Jack Russell 30th Apr 2013, 02:29pm

Don't be silly - how far are we going to go back apologising for past wrongs performed by countries - how about the Japanese apologising for their treatment of POWs in WWII - or the Vikings for pillaging Scotland and on and on - how about apologising to the children - some under 12 being misused (chimney sweeps etc.) in the 18th Century. Stop it now!!!!!

Posted by: droschke7 30th Apr 2013, 03:03pm

QUOTE (Jupiter @ 30th Apr 2013, 03:06pm) *
drosschke7, Ive missed your point in that post.

The point is that the English transported people to Australia, Canada, the US and even Ireland who didn't want to go but were forced to by the English Landowners and the Legal system at the time, and many were indentured and forced to work as "White Slaves" in the colonies or sent there as prisoners for "stealing a loaf of bread to feed the family"and then treated as slaves for years sometimes decades. Don't get me wrong the French, the Dutch, the Portuguese, the Italians and the Germans did the same thing, no apology's there yet either. My point is White Slavery also existed not just Black Slavery. It's almost like the Holocaust. The Holocaust did happen but it wasn't just 6 million Jews that died, 21 million Russians died and many million Germans amongst many others were also killed by the Nazi's, no apology for them either.

Posted by: Jupiter 30th Apr 2013, 03:30pm

OK

Posted by: Scotsman 30th Apr 2013, 03:54pm

QUOTE (droschke7 @ 30th Apr 2013, 03:20pm) *
The point is that the English transported people to Australia, Canada, the US and even Ireland who didn't want to go but were forced to by the English Landowners and the Legal system at the time, and many were indentured and forced to work as "White Slaves" in the colonies or sent there as prisoners for "stealing a loaf of bread to feed the family"and then treated as slaves for years sometimes decades. Don't get me wrong the French, the Dutch, the Portuguese, the Italians and the Germans did the same thing, no apology's there yet either. My point is White Slavery also existed not just Black Slavery. It's almost like the Holocaust. The Holocaust did happen but it wasn't just 6 million Jews that died, 21 million Russians died and many million Germans amongst many others were also killed by the Nazi's, no apology for them either.

Well said droschke!! And many of the people who were shipped were not even guilty of stealing a loaf of bread but just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time or were a nuisance to some wealthy or powerful person. And what about the Barbary pirates.... Google them. The people who are trying to force an apology are not really interested in injustice they just want to push through their own version of their politically correct agenda. Thats why an apology makes sense to these people because it satisfies their own need to be heard and feel important!!

Posted by: Jupiter 30th Apr 2013, 04:07pm

Droschke,two excellent books you might be interested in,"The Fatal Shore" and"Commonwealth of Thieves."
Awra best
Joop.

Posted by: Tomahawk kid 30th Apr 2013, 08:01pm

I think were still involved with slavery in one way or another, sweat shops in Bangladesh for example, I think Glasgows links to slavery is a very dark time in our history rite up there with the clearances, the Irish and Scottish famines, rich abusing the poor, I'm glad we had the Scottish abolitionists doing their thing at the time they did alot to make people aware of the dire situation, I wonder how many African men died on the boats heading for their destinations.

Posted by: *Yellow Rose* 30th Apr 2013, 08:20pm

We today in modern Glasgow and truly Glaswegians should not feel the need to apologise for our history. We have grown up and realise that hurting any human being is not on.. but the reality is that the world's people will continue to hurt, kill, and demoralise other people. An apology would be worthless as cruelty to other humans continues over the world. So the world should apologise and stop fighting, yes I know that will never happen, but you can "Imagine",....

Posted by: wombat 30th Apr 2013, 08:34pm

unsure.gif wont matter how many apologies are given the stigma of slavery wont go away,should'nt the living relatives of these so called tobacco lords apologise?instead of foisting the "guilt ön the average glaswegian?.incidently Britain WAS the BIG boy in the slave trade,with complete control of the sea lanes commiting acts of piracy and murder,while empire building and all the other associated keech that goes with it . mibbie make the royals apologise ? by LAW they would have got a fair share/percentage of the booty. yes.gif

Posted by: Doug1 30th Apr 2013, 09:29pm

QUOTE (Jupiter @ 30th Apr 2013, 02:06pm) *
drosschke7, Ive missed your point in that post.


Me too !!

Posted by: wee glasgo lassie 30th Apr 2013, 11:20pm

Have any of your big shots in London ever apologized for the Highland Clearances???

Posted by: Irene Maltman 30th Apr 2013, 11:56pm

I visited the south in the early 60s (Florida). I did many acts of civil disobediance so I feel I have nothing to apologise for.....How about Palestine? That is still happening,why not apologise for that ???
The Palestinian people have no rights with the Zionist government in Israel, so if Glasgow or the British government wants to apologise for partitioning their country,I think that would be a helluva lot more relevant!

Posted by: droschke7 1st May 2013, 12:50am

QUOTE (Doug1 @ 30th Apr 2013, 10:46pm) *
Me too !!


Check my latest post from 3:06pm and you'll understand, others did.

Posted by: GG 1st May 2013, 06:36am

In the first post in this topic, I quoted actress Ms Smith saying that "Imagine what kind of country we might have become had Robert Burns gone to manage the plantations". A bit of research has come up with the following highly-informative article, in which writer Thom Cross claims that Rabbie never really intended to go to Jamaica to take up a job as a book-keeper on a plantation near Port Antonio called Springbank.

Did Burns ever really mean to go to Jamaica?
http://www.scottishreview.net/ThomCross52.shtml

Alarmingly, Mr Cross notes that the life expectancy of a white book-keeper in Jamaica was, at just three years, much shorter even than that of slaves who had to live under the most despicable conditions.

QUOTE
[...] So, now it is September, he is going and straight to Pt Antonio. Burns had negotiated a three-year contract at a wage of £30 a year with Charles Douglas as field manager – called a book-keeper. (Twice what he would earn in Scotland plus free board and lodgings along with free rum and free housekeepers). He would have to be out in the fields or the boiling house like a gaffer or foreman. He would also work under the new Slave Acts of 1786 which made legal the most despicable anti-human practices. So many young European field staff (book keepers) died within three years, often through 'imprudence and intemperate living in low debauchery'. [...]

GG.

Posted by: Backcauseway 1st May 2013, 09:35am

No. Are the Algerians/Tunisians going to apologise for the Barbery Pirates who terrorised our fishing ports? Are the Japanese formally apologising for the treatment of allied POW's? Is someone trying to sell a book? I think so. What form would an apology take? We give millions in aid to India who have a space programme far in advance of anything we have. Thus would it take the form of "aid"? Or should we formally apologise to Australia for dumping prisoners on them? Maybe we should offer to repatriate all those Australian ex-cons! I suspect quite a few would rather stay in a warm climate!

Posted by: Kenny Hill 1st May 2013, 10:53am

Should the son apologise for the sins of the father?....Of course not.

Neither should the good people of Glasgow today feel the need to apologise for something that happen many years ago.

Let's be clear about one thing....Elaine C Smith tells us that a huge part of Glasgow was built on the back of slavery....That may or may not be the case, but Elaine should be intelligent enough to understand that it was the wealthy tobacco lords who profited, them alone, not the "people of Glasgow".

The argument I assume is that these tobacco lords spent their wealth in the city and as a result Glasgow builders, shop keepers etc. grew rich and Glasgow flourished on the back of the money these people spent in the city, and for that the Glasgow public should apologise?

That would be like asking a huge luxury car dealership like Landrover to apologise to the entire British pubic because they sell cars to and make profit from people who may be drug dealers or bank robbers.....It's ludicrous. They are not responsible for the actions or lifestyle of the people who purchase their product....They sell cars!

The ordinary guy in the streets of Glasgow at that period in time would be happy to earn a crust from any work he could get, when you have a family starving and you are struggling to feed them it's difficult to ponder the ethics or morality of those who are offering work and therefor a means to survive.

If anyone should be asked to apologise after all these years why not ask the direct decedents of the plantation owners and tobacco lords? Why not ask them to apologise? The good people of Glasgow have nothing to apologise for....I for one have a clear conscience.

We know slavery was a terrible thing, it’s been well documented, no one will ever forget that it happened, but do we really need to keep harping back through past history and regurgitating every rotten event that occurred? To what purpose?........Can we not be allowed to move on, respect the fact that these terrible things happen in the past, learn from them so they don’t happen again and HOPEFULLY learn to move forward.

Posted by: Scotsman 1st May 2013, 11:32am

Great post Kenny!!

To what purpose?? Thats what I keep asking myself. Surely it is crass in the extreme to think that the descendants of slaves will get anything worthwhile from an apology from distant Glaswegians. And surely also giving an apology that is not worthwhile is going to be even worse than hauding oor wheesht.... we have all been there when a shallow apology has only made things worse.

So what is the purpose.... what is the agenda of these people who are constantly harping on that we need to make an apology. Anyone know??

Posted by: mustard 1st May 2013, 12:18pm

I dont think its necessary to apologise we cant turn the clocks back so lets just move on.

Posted by: Kenny Hill 1st May 2013, 12:34pm

QUOTE (Scotsman @ 1st May 2013, 11:49am) *
So what is the purpose.... what is the agenda of these people who are constantly harping on that we need to make an apology. Anyone know??

Not sure my friend what their agenda is, but i would hazard a guess that it would enable these guilt ridden souls to announce to anyone willing to listen that they did their bit in getting Glasgow to apologise to the world for it's alleged role in the slavery trade. People such as Elaine C Smith like nothing more than bumping their gums about any political topic that is current flavour of the month......As if their opinion should be taken as fact without question.....My God, she 'felt moved to speak on the subject after viewing "Lincoln" at the cinema'......That says it all for me really.

Posted by: Canadian Scot 1st May 2013, 12:42pm

Apologise for slavery in the tobacco fields, what about the slavery in Glasgow and surrounding areas, nobody ever thought to apologise for the thousands who have died living in rat infested slums working for "peanuts" since the 1700's right up to the present day. I grew up in the Gorbals and seen other areas in Glasgow just as bad, to this day nobody has ever apologised to me for anything that happens in Glasgow, as somebody else said, you could fill the Mitchell Library twice over if every "do-gooder" has their way. NO TO ANY APOLOGY !!!!

Posted by: Dylan 1st May 2013, 01:17pm

I agree Kenny.

BOAK !

Posted by: Foxy52 1st May 2013, 03:06pm

Seems to me that l remember when l was in school l learned that there were almost as many "slaves" from Scotland and Ireland taken to the U.S. and Canada, only they called them "Indentured Servants"
Apparently it was a common practice to ship young people over here to work for some pre arranged master who would keep them from anywhere from 5 to 7 years till the cost of their boat fare was paid off.
Might have heard that wrong though?
Cheers
Foxy
P.S. No Apology

Posted by: CAT 1st May 2013, 03:21pm

I remember reading of this foxy.
Whatever the wrongs of our ancestors no apology from us will change what happened. The best apology is never to let it happen again.

Posted by: pwm437 1st May 2013, 05:51pm

A couple of years ago I went on a 'Slave Walk' round Glasgow city centre and the two group leaders were floating this notion, that we, the people of Glasgow should apologise for our involvement.

I raised the point about the many white indigenous slaves working and living in abject poverty in Glasgow at the time, needless to say I didn't get a reply.

Posted by: john.mcn 1st May 2013, 07:58pm

QUOTE (Foxy52 @ 1st May 2013, 03:23pm) *
Seems to me that l remember when l was in school l learned that there were almost as many "slaves" from Scotland and Ireland taken to the U.S. and Canada, only they called them "Indentured Servants"
Apparently it was a common practice to ship young people over here to work for some pre arranged master who would keep them from anywhere from 5 to 7 years till the cost of their boat fare was paid off.
Might have heard that wrong though?
Cheers
Foxy
P.S. No Apology

Cant remember where i seeen this link, might even have been here.


Posted by: john.mcn 1st May 2013, 08:04pm

QUOTE (pwm437 @ 1st May 2013, 06:08pm) *
A couple of years ago I went on a 'Slave Walk' round Glasgow city centre and the two group leaders were floating this notion, that we, the people of Glasgow should apologise for our involvement.

I raised the point about the many white indigenous slaves working and living in abject poverty in Glasgow at the time, needless to say I didn't get a reply.

Years ago i was a member of another forum and a chap there droned on constantly about slavery and that all whites benefited. I also pointed out the abject poverty (not the modern relative poverty) terrible living conditions and wages for the majority, in his eyes if they had jobs they benefited, you couldn't win wacko.gif

Posted by: guvinjim 2nd May 2013, 01:05am

When speaking of slavery it was not all black nor was it all Glasgow. The black arm band, politically correct guardians of the conscience of humanity I.E. "freddy feel goods" will always have a cause that gives them a warm fuzzy feeling of insular superiority over those not as caring as them; life's insignificant nonentities trying to make an impression in an"uncaring "world.
A whole Scottish clan was sold into slavery by a "London laird" to pay for his gambling debts. Their descendants, now all happily black still retain their clan and Scottish names on an island in the W. Indies.

The "British government banned slavery before any other and in 1822 issued an edict forbidding the transport of slaves on the high seas. The commanding general of the U.S. military was a descendant of slaves. Africans worked as slaves in the mines in Wales.

The "hand wringers" wont change a jot of history and apologising for the actions of unenlightened governments of old will not make a difference to the living and certainly not the dead.

Posted by: taurus 2nd May 2013, 01:59am

Every night when I`m cleaning away the dinner,after 55 years of marriage,I say "I`ve been a slave since I was 19". biggrin.gif

Posted by: angel 2nd May 2013, 02:05am

John , that video was very interesting and thanks for posting it , and yes Canada did use slaves when it was governed by Britain

They needed slave labour , to build the roads and railroad and work the farms in the colonies .

I believe that there is a documentary in the making about slavery in Canada and I will be on the lookout for it , " whenever " ! ... I know that it will interest me .

Posted by: wellfield 2nd May 2013, 02:20am

Interesting video....learned from it.....and 'Foxy' you are right...I read an interesting book a year or two ago "The Highland Clearances"..where they herded in chains Scots young and old to be 'indentured' in the Americas.... hence the main reason most Black Americans have Scottish names, eventually, many of the 'indentured' Scots became Scots plantation bosses.

Posted by: Guest 2nd May 2013, 09:14pm

The Scots Covenanters were being transported into slavery in the New World of America long before the the Highland Clearances...up until the end of the 19th century colliers and miners in Scotland were literally slaves as they were sold along with the pits by the landowners and mine owners when the pits were sold off. History is history and we cannot apologise for the sins of those who went before us for no amount of apology will right the wrong.

Posted by: wombat 2nd May 2013, 09:40pm

rolleyes.gif cant send photos,whats wrong?

Posted by: beltona bill 3rd May 2013, 10:03am

No, we should not apologise unless every other country involved in slavery over the past 10,000 years also apologise.

Perhaps we should demand an apology from those North African countries whose slavers took people from the British Isles We should just try not to repeat the negative aspects of human nature.

Just as an afterthought is slavery (that we ended 200 years ago) used as an excuse for some sort of moral blackmail and an excuse for bad behaviour?

Posted by: Weeman 4th May 2013, 10:37am

Politically correct subject matter such as this gets right on my raspberry ripples. Apologies are only appropriate if the abusers and victims are still alive.

Sadly, in my opinion, these 'apologists' are just folks out to promote themselves for some sort of personal gain.

Personally, I find that disgusting.

Posted by: guvinjim 5th May 2013, 07:10am

Weeman, their gain is succeeding in their quest for moral ascendancy over those whom in their supercilious rhetoric they see as being morally inferior to them due to the refusal of normal "folks" to wear the "black arm band" of emotional hypersensitivity for all to see. I think good thoughts therefore I am good. I agonise over my moral prerogative that all might see my righteousness. I think right therefore I am right.

Dr. Ronnie Lang (the great, of Glasgow) back in the 60s wrote about the dangers of the "Right Man" whom he described as having a sense of self righteous so great, that it would carry before it all reason to the contrary of their opinionated stance. The consequence eventually leading to the rise of fascism accompanied "correct" authoritarianism.

The term politically correct has its origins in the rise of "The Right Man".

Posted by: wee davy 5th May 2013, 10:22am

QUOTE (Weeman @ 4th May 2013, 10:54am) *
Politically correct subject matter such as this gets right on my raspberry ripples. Apologies are only appropriate if the abusers and victims are still alive.

Sadly, in my opinion, these 'apologists' are just folks out to promote themselves for some sort of personal gain.

Personally, I find that disgusting.

I tend to agree with your last statement.
However, the descendants of such abuse and inhumane treatment as has we (collective) have historically been responsible for;

1) deserve some form of official recognition, on their ancestors disgraceful treatment, not just by Glasgow, but Lancaster (worldwide HQ for it), Liverpool, and Bordaux.
2) are owed the truth to be upheld, and remembered, in ALL its horror.

May it never happen again, (Although I know it still goes on in many parts of the world, but just in a different form.

Posted by: john.mcn 5th May 2013, 11:09am

Dave it was a shitty world back then, it would be wrong to single out the buying and selling of black people as the only crappy thing to happen to people.
Scotland itself has a pretty grim history of treating it's own, are we to apologise for the treatment some of our ancestors meted out to some of our other ancestors.
Hey i'm all for the truth, not just in this part in history but everything, but the truth brings some 'revelations' that some people might not be happy with, like the slave trade could never have happened without the full co operation of the rival tribes and leaders of Africa themselves. Do people think 'whites' had armies marching through Africa (that came later)picking up whole villages to sell off.
Yeah some people got rich from it, some people got rich selling rope to the hangman, some still get rich making and selling weapons. If there's a way to make money there will be someone who will, it doesn't make the city/country responsible or it's inhabitants and their descendants.

Posted by: wee davy 5th May 2013, 03:02pm

Good point about the stronger tribal involvement, happily selling they're neighbours to any whitey who passed through.

The thing is, they wouldn't have had they're role, if our merchants didn't provide the management, and the means. Lancaster really gets off easily in historical terms, because it was virtually BUILT from the proceeds of the despicable trade.

There's a monument you can see from the motorway (M6) you can see, as pass Morcambe Bay.
Way atop a hill. In the rip roaring times of slavery, all the toffs in their finery, used to picnic on a Sunday, looking down, upon their ill gotten gains
Of course, this was AFTER they'd been to church!

Posted by: marcam7 5th May 2013, 10:51pm

Apology?? naw i dont think so but hopefully in a few years time as a independent Scotland we might be able to show the world where we now stand in these matters,our part in the Empire was pretty shameful where would we stop with our apologies,sure the Union in it's first two hundred years helped us financially but it also took us to some dark places it's had it's day,now it's the future that counts and what we do with it

Posted by: Dave Grieve 6th May 2013, 05:41am

QUOTE (wee davy @ 5th May 2013, 04:19pm) *
Good point about the stronger tribal involvement, happily selling they're neighbours to any whitey who passed through.

The thing is, they wouldn't have had they're role, if our merchants didn't provide the management, and the means. Lancaster really gets off easily in historical terms, because it was virtually BUILT from the proceeds of the despicable trade.

There's a monument you can see from the motorway (M6) you can see, as pass Morcambe Bay.
Way atop a hill. In the rip roaring times of slavery, all the toffs in their finery, used to picnic on a Sunday, looking down, upon their ill gotten gains
Of course, this was AFTER they'd been to church!

If its only black slavery from Africa we are talking about here the number of slaves taken to the Americas pales into insignificance in comparison to the untold millions taken by Arab slavers over the centuries, who treated and still to this day treat Africa as its own little slavery piggy bank.

Far from owing any apologies Africa in particular owes Britain a debt of gratitude for leading the fight against slavery.

Posted by: Lydya Binn 8th May 2013, 12:23am

Slavery was conducted by Arabs who rounded up sub Saharan Africans and took them to the coast where they were shipped for sale by European slavers who sold them all over Europe and the Americas at a vast profit. Every country in the old and new world was a recipient of this trade.

Instead of apologising at the behest of the morally superior and the politically indignant we would be better served in fighting this pernicious trade that continues to this present day in Mali in particular, where black Africans who are considered racially inferior to their Arab neighbours to the north in spite of them being Muslims.

And what about the sex slavery in eastern Europe and Thailand and India where girls as young as twelve are traded on the sex market and exported round the world. Much of this sex slavery trade is endemic in the U.K. There has been enough media exposure to verify these statements as being true and accurate.

As far as Glasgow is concerned, there is more to apologise for the tobacco traders. That we as a city should be held responsible for the aberration of slavery is preposterous and we must not be held to moral ransom by the politically correct moral minority.

Posted by: Guest 9th May 2013, 06:05am

NO NO NO.

Not in my name.

Posted by: angel 9th May 2013, 03:11pm

Lydia Bin

QUOTE
And what about the sex slavery in eastern Europe and Thailand and India where girls as young as twelve are traded on the sex market and exported round the world. Much of this sex slavery trade is endemic in the U.K. There has been enough media exposure to verify these statements as being true and accurate.

from what I've read the Sex trade " sexual Slavery " in Scotland eg. Glasgow , is most definately flourishing , not very much being done about it , as far as the law is concerned .

I read that in England and Wales , they have had 150 or so convictions against those criminals , and Scotland has had only one . I wonder , should we apologise now or wait another 200yrs . until it is none of our business .

Posted by: wee davy 9th May 2013, 05:39pm

QUOTE
I wonder , should we apologise now or wait another 200yrs . until it is none of our business .


wink.gif smile.gif

Posted by: wombat 10th May 2013, 09:22pm

sad.gif the äpology"lies wie the people that turned human flesh intae GOLD .their heirs still have the gold and cant get enuff of it,they aw have the same disease .USURY and GREED.i'm thankfull to have immunity thumbup.gif

Posted by: wombat 10th May 2013, 09:39pm

yes.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 10th May 2013, 10:01pm

QUOTE (angel @ 9th May 2013, 03:28pm) *
Lydia Bin


from what I've read the Sex trade " sexual Slavery " in Scotland eg. Glasgow , is most definately flourishing , not very much being done about it , as far as the law is concerned .

I read that in England and Wales , they have had 150 or so convictions against those criminals , and Scotland has had only one . I wonder , should we apologise now or wait another 200yrs . until it is none of our business .



With you being so learned about it why dont you contact the police with all your info so they do something about it?

Posted by: wombat 10th May 2013, 10:08pm

laugh.gif kermit thumbup.gif

Posted by: angel 10th May 2013, 10:44pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 10th May 2013, 09:18pm) *
With you being so learned about it why dont you contact the police with all your info so they do something about it?


Such an infantile remark , it's public knowledge .
Why don't you and wombat read before you post .

Posted by: angel 10th May 2013, 11:16pm

well Wombat for what it is worth
when it comes to the tobacco , sugar and textile
Barons , I understand that was one of the reasons
that the union of the crowns was signed , as long as they got
the right to trade in the americas at that time , along with England , it
sure saved them a lot in labour costs ,

I am more interested in this 20th/21st century slavery that is going on , in particular the sex slave trade .

The Scottish Laws are so complicated in this legal matter that it is
near impossible to get a conviction , and from what I read , It is time these laws where changed to protect those vunerable souls who come from the poorest of the poor and are not the brightest stars in the sky .
Time for Scotland to change it laws and protect the innocent from
this filth and maybe convict those whu use this disgusting service .

Is it any worse than what has gone on with slavery in the past ?.

Posted by: john.mcn 11th May 2013, 10:41am

QUOTE (angel @ 10th May 2013, 11:01pm) *
Such an infantile remark , it's public knowledge .
Why don't you and wombat read before you post .



Well Miss Marple i did read your comment hence i posted rolleyes.gif

If it is indeed public knowledge and as 'flourishing' as you suggest maybe all this evidence you've collected would be better placed in the hands of Strathclyde police rather than posting about it on an internet forum, in fact as we have here ex policemen you could even DHL this dossier to them to forward it on for you.
If i may say Scotland surely lost a great asset the day you left these shores, you could have had your own TV show as Scotlands answer to Jessica Fletcher in Murrrduurrrr she wrote
biggrin.gif

Posted by: DavidT 11th May 2013, 11:16am

The gangsters who control modern day trafficking cover their tracks well. Their 'workers' have official papers. They walk amongst us daily. The image is that a 'slave' is chained up and kept in a basement somewhere. They are scared to speak out. Threats to themselves or their families keep them scared. Couple this with councils willingness to grant licences to 'saunas', 'health clubs', etc. and the slave trade is aided and abetted by officialdom. It exists. It is every bit as abhorrent as the historical African slave trade.
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19585293

Posted by: angel 11th May 2013, 02:23pm



If i may say Scotland surely lost a great asset the day you left these shores, you could have had your own TV show as Scotlands answer to Jessica Fletcher in Murrrduurrrr she wrote

--------------------------------------------------------

If throwing out insults , and sticking your head in the sand
Turns You on , who am I to change your attitude ,
I would say that infantile is an excellent description .




Posted by: angel 11th May 2013, 03:27pm

QUOTE (DavidT @ 11th May 2013, 10:33am) *
The gangsters who control modern day trafficking cover their tracks well. Their 'workers' have official papers. They walk amongst us daily. The image is that a 'slave' is chained up and kept in a basement somewhere. They are scared to speak out. Threats to themselves or their families keep them scared. Couple this with councils willingness to grant licences to 'saunas', 'health clubs', etc. and the slave trade is aided and abetted by officialdom. It exists. It is every bit as abhorrent as the historical African slave trade.
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19585293


Posted by: john.mcn 11th May 2013, 03:34pm



If i throw out insults while my head is in the sand wouldn't i get a mouthful of sand...and die??? Would you then get a phonecall, Angel we need your extensive worldly expertise , we think there's been a muurrrderrr, there's a man with a mouthful of sand and we suspect foul play biggrin.gif

Posted by: angel 11th May 2013, 03:40pm



Hi David , your post describes most cities in the world
but it really is time for Scotland to change it's Laws
as I have said to get more convictions against this evil trade
and make life difficult for the scum who live off these crimes.
Pen name , Agatha Christie . laugh.gif laugh.gif




Posted by: angel 11th May 2013, 03:44pm



If i throw out insults while my head is in the sand wouldn't i get a mouthful of sand...and die???

OH " I'm sure you could manage that .

Posted by: wombat 11th May 2013, 06:50pm

laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: DavidT 11th May 2013, 07:16pm

laugh.gif the butler done it.

Posted by: Elma 11th May 2013, 08:15pm

laugh.gif tongue.gif

Posted by: ginaburton 16th May 2013, 09:12am

The only people who can apologise for an offence are those who committed that offence and since they are long dead the apology is meaningless.

Posted by: stratson 16th May 2013, 11:09am

QUOTE (ginaburton @ 16th May 2013, 10:29am) *
The only people who can apologise for an offence are those who committed that offence and since they are long dead the apology is meaningless.


I heartily concur. thumbup.gif

Posted by: elaine24 21st May 2013, 03:30pm

Maybe we should apologise for the tobacco industry too - after all the city's wealth was founded by the Tobacco Lords!
Get off your soap box - you are actors - why do people aff the telly think we are interested in their opinions. Does acting come with some sort of sociology degree now?

Posted by: InkManHugh 24th May 2013, 12:16pm

There is a high profile campaigner calling for Glasgow to apologise who I obviously shall not identify and to further protect both myself and this fantastic forum will say that their name hasn't appeared recently - if at all - on this thread.

This person claims to be against all forms of social injustice and does so in community gatherings, television appearances and other media outlets. A fine stance and one that I would respect ............ except I know the family from whom this person purchased a house some years ago. The main breadwinner had been unemployed for some time and were having to sell their home in order to avoid complete financial disaster. This "social campaigner" turned up at their door over the space of a fortnight making increasingly smaller offers on their property before delivering an aggressive 'take it or leave it' offensive deal knowing the family were in a position that they could not refuse.

Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms (delete as appropriate) I hate social injustice is never shy of enforcing his/her sack cloth and ashes politically skewered opinions of how terrible this country is in the clever disguise of merely calling for equality. I am afraid that my dealings with this person, however tenuous, have made me view any calls for an apology with great suspicion.

By the way, as has been suggested elsewhere, before any of our politicians choose to proffer an apology on our behalf without any form of consultation or securing it is both representative and free of potential financial recompense it would be perhaps interesting for society to be educated in the history of slavery. Lets highlight all of those counties and religions who should feel shamed for their historical part in this terrible process as well as the counties, religions and companies who use it to their advantage today. That won't happen though as it would dilute the anti-British and anti-Scottish agenda perpetrated by some of those calling on my city to glibly apologise.

Sorry for my lengthy rant

Shuggy

Posted by: Guest 26th Jun 2013, 07:07am

Looking at the poll and the feedback on this page, it is good to see that ordinary Glaswegians have not been hoodwinked by the PC mob.

Well done Glasgow!

Posted by: Talisman 30th Jun 2013, 10:12am

QUOTE (Guest @ 26th Jun 2013, 07:15am) *
Looking at the poll and the feedback on this page, it is good to see that ordinary Glaswegians have not been hoodwinked by the PC mob.

Well done Glasgow!

The political correct are those who express themselves through the control they can assert, over the majority of human beings trying to get on with their life without the thought police controling every aspect of it. If allowed to gain power they would establish a dictatorship after the manner of Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Soviet empire. We would then all be in the compassionate arms of those who would make you happy by legislation and show new ways to speak and think that would render us totaly in harmony with the world they have created.

" The last act is the greatest treason. To do the right deed for the wrong reason"

T.S.Elliot. Murder in the cathedral

Posted by: DavidT 30th Jun 2013, 01:27pm

I belong to Glasgow and Glasgow belongs to me. I don't think I have anything to apologise for..therefore the answer is no laugh.gif

Posted by: aussiejimmy 30th Jun 2013, 02:22pm

Seems like today we have a (small) group of fluffy disenchanted lonely people who wont quite make the grade who come from out the ball park with these stupid ideas in our mind, but to them some form of notority that makes them feel good. If you read prior entries it seems we have had types of slavery for centuries but throughout the world not just Glasgow. Yes we have had our tobacco barons which brought wealth into Glasgow but how many were there, very few and it did benifit Glasgow at the time. Look back over the last 100 years most of the world was like Glasgow things were very hard, looking at it now it was akin to slavery but it was experienced and worked through but i dont know anyone that is looking for an apology. And what an apology venue proposed the Comm. games, crazy, all sort of nutters will come out of the woodwork with odd strange agendas for us to ponder if the apology is done. What nicks me off is some people join with others with hairbrained ideas just to be seen to be part of a group even if in their mind they dont agree with the agenda but they feel safe or all of a sudden get noticed. Anyway I can see the swing of the letters so count me out too and get on with modern political isues that can be addressed in our time. Slange

Posted by: carmella 19th Jul 2013, 01:43pm

I just noticed this thread and my answer is a definite 'no'. Don't know what this author is thinking about although he is certainly entitled to believe what he does of course.

I think the vote results so far pretty much speak for themselves, so I won't duplicate what has already been said in the 'no' stable.

Posted by: kitnian 8th Aug 2013, 07:28am

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 29th Apr 2013, 09:32pm) *
No, now i'm no history buff and there's probably far more knowledgeable people here when it comes to the history of 'Glasgow' but at the time of 'the slave trade'* Glasgow was far far smaller than what we call it now. To say 1/2 of Glasgow was built on the slave trade may have been true at that time but it is now a far bigger place and it's borders extend far further than they did even at the end of the 19th century.
Anyway if Glasgow should apologise because of guilt by association then why stop there, apologise for child labour making Nike trainers for sale in our shops, hell apologise for that collapsed building because Primark clothes get made there, i'm sure once we start there will be others ashamed at their colour/race/nationality/sex etc who want everyone to apologise for everything . Hell my ancestors were jacobites who from what i was told were treated quite harsh after 1745, where is my apology and while you're at it a nice big fat cheque for all my hurt feelings wink.gif

* i put that there because slavery was here long before that period in time its commonly referred to, and it was here after it's apparent abolition, hell it's probably still going on, if sorry is to be said for anything it's for there not being enough done to stop it now.

I think someone should apologize to the Scots and give them land rights in the Highland s and the Lowlands and the government of the day pay the Scots for their land like the do in with all the aboriginals of any country ie Africa Australia and Canada America the list goes on but oh hang on the Scots were white disposessed silly me

Posted by: Dylan 8th Aug 2013, 08:20am

I understood rich Scots Landlords were as much involved and profited from the Highland Clearances?

They still own it.

Agrarian reform and a fairer distribution of wealth , for Scots, by Scots would be a welcome start.

An apology would not be necessary .

Posted by: deebel 15th Aug 2013, 12:34pm

This seems to be a relatively recent trend to pronounce public apologies for anything and everything that happened in the past . Sorry Elaine C I feel no moral, emotional or other compulsion to apologise for the actions of mankind or governments or peoples in past times who lived by the laws and codes of society at the time. We read about the past and learn . it is called studying history.

Let us celebrate and remember the tireless work of the abolitionists at the time, e.g. William Wilberforce our own Frances Wright who campaigned for the elimination of slavery throughout the world.

We as a society came to recognise the unacceptability of slavery in a civilised world and through the democratic process we eliminated it in the British Empire in the 1830's. We shouldnt have to carry a bag of guilt for deeds way back in the past. We should be proud that our forefathers were enlightened and eliminated the practices of their past.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 15th Aug 2013, 12:44pm

Very good first post deebel and welcome to GG, i look forward to reading more of your posts.

Posted by: Betsy2009 15th Aug 2013, 12:48pm

There are still slaves.
If you look at the young people and mere children being kidnapped to be used in the sex trade - shouldn't the emphasis be to put the resources into stopping this rather than apologising for our history.

Posted by: gerryl 15th Sep 2013, 10:56pm

So if the people of Glasgow are asked to say sorry, on behalf of Glasgow, to the world for it's role in slavery. Will they also give the money and everything else they made from the slave trade back as well.

That was the way of the world revolved back then, it doesn't mean to say it was right but it happened. There is not much we can do about it now and an apology wouldn't have the slightest bearing of what happened and also who is going to say thanks for the apology, we forgive you, no one.

We move on and we try and make the world a better place to live in, for our children's children and the future generations of the greatest smallest country in the world.


Posted by: GG 17th Aug 2014, 10:53pm

Form earlier this month: looks like Glasgow's (weak-willed or attention-seeking?) politicians are in the process of caving into the interests of a tiny minority, who obviously don't represent the will of Glaswegians:

QUOTE
Memorial to Glasgow slave history to finally go ahead

[...] The council claimed the "global conversations" that have taken place during the Commonwealth Games had brought the issue into clearer focus than ever before and that recent academic research had shed more light on how the prosperity of Glasgow - and Scotland - in the 18th and 19th centuries was significantly linked with slavery.

Councillor Archie Graham, chair of Glasgow Life, said: "We will take stock of all of these issues after the Games, consult with interested communities and stakeholders, and take a strategic approach to how the city's museums, libraries and archives represent this element of our past.

"We all feel proper pride in our city's positive contributions to world history, but we must also reflect on and be honest about the darker aspects of our past." [...]

Full story here:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/memorial-to-glasgow-slave-history-to-finally-go-ahead.24939247

And one of the reader comments to the story:
QUOTE
Why single out Glasgow for its links with the slave trade? While it's nothing to be proud about, it wasn't exclusive to the City and has been going on for centuries - in Elizabethan times the Portuguese, Genoese and indeed the Pope (to name but a few) all had galleys propelled by slave rowers. And should we condemn the Muslims during the Crusades who on winning a battle offered the losers (apart from the Knights Templar) the option of religious conversion and slavery rather than death (assuming they weren't worth a ransom)?

If we want some positive acknowledgment of the misery slavery brought to all society, let's focus on getting it stopped today (including in the UK).

GG.

Posted by: lubbock 18th Aug 2014, 07:16am

Absolutely not ,You cannot cherrypick history and rectify it by making it fit today's current trend of political correctiveness looking for the current generation to shoulder any guilt and blame for what happened in the past ,By all means don't let it happen again .But trying to change the past will achieve nothing.

Posted by: ktv 18th Aug 2014, 09:54am

I don't see any need for the people of Glasgow to apologise for something that happened 100s of years ago.

they should acknowledge it happened yes and the cities part in it but that's it.

loads of places in Liverpool have plagues etc telling the story of their history so we should to the same.

Posted by: bilbo.s 18th Aug 2014, 10:46am

QUOTE (ktv @ 18th Aug 2014, 12:11pm) *
I don't see any need for the people of Glasgow to apologise for something that happened 100s of years ago.

they should acknowledge it happened yes and the cities part in it but that's it.

loads of places in Liverpool have plagues etc telling the story of their history so we should to the same.


I´ve only been to Liverpool once. Seemingly I am lucky to be alive to tell the tale. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: ktv 18th Aug 2014, 10:55am

been loads of times and never had any hassle whatsoever.

great place, great locals, great pubs etc crap hotels though lol

Posted by: bilbo.s 18th Aug 2014, 11:32am

ktv, I was being facetious again- what's new ? Referring to the plagues seemingly rife in that burg. tongue.gif

Posted by: GG 3rd Oct 2014, 08:15pm

Another predictable attempt to skew the issue, this time by professional academics intent on pursuing their own research output agendas:

QUOTE
We must confront historic role in slave trade, academics say

A leading historian says Scotland is guilty of 'collective amnesia' and must do more to acknowledge its true role at the very heart of the slave trade.

The full extent of the country's involvement in slavery in the 17th and 18th century was laid bare on Friday at a conference in Glasgow - a city that benefitted considerably from the trade.

The conference heard from scholars who have provided new evidence, insights and perspectives in this field, including Professor Sir Tom Devine.

They addressed all aspects of Scottish slave history from merchants and slavery to contemporary perceptions of slavery and Scottish literature.

During the 18th century, Glasgow dominated Britain’s tobacco and sugar imports and wealth flooded into the city. ...

Full story – and video – here:
http://news.stv.tv/west-central/294522-scotland-must-confront-historic-role-in-slave-trade-academics-say/

GG.

Posted by: Mathieson 3rd Oct 2014, 09:52pm

QUOTE (ktv @ 18th Aug 2014, 12:12pm) *
been loads of times and never had any hassle whatsoever.

great place, great locals, great pubs etc crap hotels though lol


Whoooosh!!!!!!!! laugh.gif

Posted by: Mathieson 3rd Oct 2014, 10:00pm

QUOTE (GG @ 3rd Oct 2014, 09:32pm) *
Another predictable attempt to skew the issue, this time by professional academics intent on pursuing their own research output agendas:


Full story – and video – here:
http://news.stv.tv/west-central/294522-scotland-must-confront-historic-role-in-slave-trade-academics-say/

GG.


If it's right that we in this day and age should feel any guilt about any perceived "benefits" from the slave trade hundreds of years after the event then maybe privileged people like Sir Tom Devine should set an example and hand back his knighthood in recognition of his personal culpability. rolleyes.gif
Until then, shut it Tam.

Posted by: Dylan 3rd Oct 2014, 10:03pm

Sir Tam ?.

I thought it was St. Tam ?

biggrin.gif

Posted by: Mathieson 3rd Oct 2014, 10:12pm

I hate the holier-than-thou attitude of self-serving old windbags like him.

Posted by: lindamcf 4th Oct 2014, 12:09am

Should Glasgow Apologise For Slavery.


no

Posted by: Betsy2009 4th Oct 2014, 08:04am

I'd like an apology for the tobacco and sugar!!!

Posted by: Dave Grieve 4th Oct 2014, 08:34am

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 4th Oct 2014, 10:21am) *
I'd like an apology for the tobacco and sugar!!!


Back to dear old Glesga for that one Betsy the Glasgow merchants were prominent in the supply and distribution of both of those items biggrin.gif

Posted by: Betsy2009 4th Oct 2014, 08:38am

Exactly Dave. They are responsible for my downfall.

Posted by: Mathieson 4th Oct 2014, 09:51am

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 4th Oct 2014, 09:55am) *
Exactly Dave. They are responsible for my downfall.



biggrin.gif

Posted by: Tennscot 6th Oct 2014, 03:35am

It`s the same old tripe, People who get Grants to study anything and I mean anything will do anything to make their salary for another year. They are the senior form of "professional students. " I was involved in building a boat for a study of a small fish in Pyramid lake for Uni., of Nevada. I was wined & dined for a week all expenses paid.!!! I know this is far fetched from Slavery but it makes me wonder if these studies are "Aw tarred wae the same brush". Yes study history and learn from it, but do not carry a guilt complex around with you. Should we feel guilty about all the wars in history, or about white slave traders or black slave traders or whether the American Civil War was fought over Slaves or who ruled the Cotton Trade, North or South. I had nothing to do with it, My Father and Grand father had nothing to do with it. I don't think any of us Today have anything to feel guilty about. Did we not have indentured slavery ourselves. Get over it and get on with building a future for Glasgow and Scotland. I will wake up every morning glad to be alive and healthy (at 81, so much for the Longevity of Glaswegians!!) Ah`m supposed to be Dead, Right!! Doc sez " I`m his healthy patient . I know I digress but , it`s my age and it`s my Ancestors fault. Oh! lest I forget Ya`all have a nice day All Ya` all

Posted by: Dimairt 6th Oct 2014, 07:12pm

The 'fashion' for historical apologies is long since over: Clinton 'apologised for US policy in Hawaii in the mid-1800s and even Her Majesty, gawd bless 'er, 'apologised', after a fashion, for UK policy in Ireland.
As to Glasgow's role in the slave trade, I think it would be good if it was taught in our schools, though not as some hand-wringing exercise, rather as an intensive look at our history and why we have Jamaica St. , why the Clyde was expanded etc.
We have to know and understand our past, warts and all but today's Glaswegians are clearly not responsible for the actions of the past. Given our present financial state it's hard to see how we currently benefit from it either.
One last point though, Tom Devine is the doyen of Scottish historians, regardless of the 'what does he know' school of thought in some posts. Disagree if you wish but evidence and reasoned argument would help make your point.
"The Scottish Nation: 1700-2000" is worth anyone's time and money, as is "A History of the Scottish People, 1560-1830" by T.C. Smout. But hey, what would they know?

Durachdan,

Eddy




Posted by: TeeHeeHee 7th Oct 2014, 02:45pm

There is absolutely no need to apologise since we made up for it by sending this man who died for the Abolition cause.


Dr David Livingstone 1813-1873



wink.gif

Posted by: Betsy2009 7th Oct 2014, 03:13pm

I'm sure I remember my dad taking me to Livingston's house but I'm sure it didn't look like the Livingston Centre does now. I'd have gone late 50's probably.

http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/blantyre/livingstonecentre/

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 8th Oct 2014, 10:11am

The David Livingstone Memorial, as it was known then in the '50s, was one of my regular playgrounds during the summer school holidays Betsy ... my big brother was gardener there and I had free entry biggrin.gif
I also got to collect empties which visitors to the park left lying around ... and the deposits tongue.gif

The Globe Fountain is a noteworthy work of Engineering ...

QUOTE
The Livingstone World Fountain

October 31, 2013 · by Paul Veverka · in Blantyre Icons. ·

One of Blantyre’s most iconic features is the Livingstone World Fountain. So many times i’ve been to David Livingstone Memorial site and walked by the globe in the little circular pool and simply thought “nice fountain“. Stopping recently to have a real good look, I quickly gained a new appreciation of the craftsmanship put into it. So, in true keeping with wanting to know more, Blantyre Project headed off to uncover the history of the fountain and find some more information.

The Globe itself is officially known as “The World Fountain“. It was gifted by a Mrs Maxwell to the Livingstone Memorial Trust in 1928, just prior to the site opening. Mrs Maxwell was the wife of a well known local 1910’s Councillor A. Maxwell.

Designed by the Trust’s Architect, Mr F Mears and erected by Mr C. ‘O Pilkington Jackson, the globe of the world is made from quality marble and bronze. I was surprised to uncover a lesser known fact from the 1929 opening programme that the world fountain is orientated in such an exact position that it becomes a huge sun dial. It is so exactly sited, that when the sun shines on it, it displays what countries that are actually currently lit in sun. This effectively makes it not only a work of art, but something of general geographic interest. The sundial was commonly known by children when the monument opened, but seems to be lost now to the current generation of visitors. The five points on the globe, ie the plaques and little statues, depict the simple industries by which mankind (and womankind) lives.

Posted by: bilbo.s 8th Oct 2014, 10:20am

I was taken there as a kid in the 50s and in the 80s took my son there, but I was disappointed that some display items were missing from my childhood visits.

Posted by: Dave Grieve 8th Oct 2014, 10:23am

We know one thing Westminster wont apologise for keeping Scotland in slavery angry.gif

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 8th Oct 2014, 10:23am

You'll remember the grass native huts then, Bill.

Posted by: bilbo.s 8th Oct 2014, 10:56am

QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 8th Oct 2014, 12:40pm) *
You'll remember the grass native huts then, Bill.


Tomi, as I think I mentioned to you previously on another thread, I had it in my mind that there was a 4-barrel pistol and also an arm-bone of Livingstone. These items really impressed me as a child, and I had told my son about them, only to be disappointed.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 8th Oct 2014, 10:59am

I remember the arm bone too Bill but I'm not sure if it was a replica or not.
I'll have to check out the question of the pistol. I'll let you know wink.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 8th Oct 2014, 11:02am



My son Iain in 1983 at Blantyre.

Posted by: lubbock 8th Oct 2014, 04:19pm

What's that your reading......

Posted by: Betsy2009 8th Oct 2014, 05:34pm

It's the oldest known Kindle.

Posted by: Elma 8th Oct 2014, 06:44pm

I remember going to Blantyre every year to the Livingstone Memorial with the Sunday School from Scotstoun East Church. We always had to trip through the house and surroundings before we were allowed to have our races and goodies! I remember one year a group of us girls snuck a peak at the bed in which he was born, we lifted up the covers to discover it was a table tongue.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 8th Oct 2014, 06:47pm

Hey. Elma ! Lots of kids have been born on a table. Nothing wrong with that. tongue.gif

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 11th Oct 2014, 03:29pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 8th Oct 2014, 11:13am) *
Tomi, as I think I mentioned to you previously on another thread, I had it in my mind that there was a 4-barrel pistol and also an arm-bone of Livingstone. These items really impressed me as a child, and I had told my son about them, only to be disappointed.

Hi Bill, got this answer from the moderator of "The Blantyre Project" Facebook page ...
You were right mate wink.gif

QUOTE
The Blantyre Project
Thomas - A few things have gone missing over the years, sadly. I do actually recall reading about a missing gun although cant find the source of that information again (and perhaps it was something else missing altogether?) A spear went missing in 1999, but police returned it, found in a street in Blantyre. I have just checked the original 1929 opening programme, which listed all the exhibits and there on page 21, in Case T is "A Four Barrel Pistol with powder horn" (not owned by the relatives of Livingstone). This used to be in Room 2, on the Ground floor and was donated for the opening in 1929. Hope this answers your question. The centre will be able to help you more with info.

Posted by: bilbo.s 11th Oct 2014, 03:33pm

Thanks a lot, Tomi. My long-term memory is obviously better than the short-term one.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 11th Oct 2014, 04:01pm

A lot better than mine tongue.gif

Nae bother Bill wink.gif

Posted by: Jupiter 11th Oct 2014, 05:10pm

At the end of the day,the bottom line,in the final analysis does it/will it make one iota of difference if Glasgow does or does not apologise for slavery?
ph34r.gif ph34r.gif

Posted by: carmella 11th Oct 2014, 06:40pm

QUOTE (Jupiter @ 11th Oct 2014, 06:27pm) *
At the end of the day,the bottom line,in the final analysis does it/will it make one iota of difference if Glasgow does or does not apologise for slavery?
ph34r.gif ph34r.gif

NO!

Posted by: Jupiter 11th Oct 2014, 07:12pm

Thanks Carmella.It was only when I looked at the topic wording and wondered who came up with this notion.Its a sad episode but time to move on.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 12th Oct 2014, 10:53am

Apology form *

QUOTE
We're sorry that our ancestors ... (fill in the blank spaces) ... your ancestors.


*Uncompleted forms may be saved for future Generations rolleyes.gif


Posted by: Mathieson 13th Oct 2014, 09:18pm

QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 12th Oct 2014, 12:10pm) *
Apology form *



*Uncompleted forms may be saved for future Generations rolleyes.gif


laugh.gif

Posted by: wellfield 14th Oct 2014, 03:45am

That title makes me laugh!...(Should Glasgow apologise for slavery)......didn't the author see how the majority of us were herded and penned in Glasgow's tenements!.....'slavery'....apologise my ass!!!!!

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 14th Oct 2014, 06:26am

Quite agree Wellfield. A simlilar Situation was when the widows and orphans were turned out onto the street from their miner's rows housing by the owners after their men had died in the Blantyre Mine Explosion having risked their lives for a pittance.
Yer man disnae grovel in the mine fur us anymear ... wur takin' the hoose back!

Posted by: Backcauseway 15th Oct 2014, 03:32pm

In the late 18th & early 19th century a lot of the Glasgow merchants had interests in sugar plantations etc. This money travelled back to be invested in industrial concerns in Scotland. It is really no longer possible to "apologise" as who would you apologise to? Would you apologise to an African country run by a dictator? People in the West Indians?

Re the miners - I have relations down the pits in the Blantyre area ie Dixons Rows etc. If you didnae work in the pits ye didnae get a hoose. As my old granny told me. She worked sorting coal at the pithead at 14. Its a long vanished way of life.

OK we can apologise but the world has moved on.

Posted by: GG 4th Oct 2015, 10:54pm

The same old nonsense being rehashed in the papers:

QUOTE
How Glasgow [...] grew rich from the slave trade

The issue of Britain's role in the slave trade has returned to the headlines, with calls for the UK to pay reparations to Jamaica. In tomorrow's Herald Magazine, Scotland's foremost historian Sir Tom Devine reveals the true extent of Scotland's involvement. Here, we look at how Glasgow - and Scotland - was shaped by the trade - and the men who benefited from other people's misery.

In his 2009 book, It Wisnae Us: The Truth About Glasgow and Slavery, Stephen Mullen said that Glasgow and her merchants monopolised the two main goods produced by slaves - tobacco and sugar. He added: "There are many reminders of this controversial past in daily view in Glasgow. The built heritage betrays much of this history in its street names, churches, graveyards and in the remains of Palladian mansions. That Glasgow benefited is indisputable."

Mullen says the building that houses the Gallery of Modern Art, one of the city's most-visited attractions, "has a long connection with slave plantation economics." The Cunninghame Mansion, now the core of the building, was constructed in 1778 for William Cunninghame of Lainshaw, one of Glasgow's leading merchants. He had "significant" interests in both the Virginia tobacco trade and the West Indies sugar trade, Mullen added. He owned one plantation in Westmoreland, Jamaica, which had 300 slaves. ...

Full story here:
https://archive.is/3lXNu

GG.

Posted by: GG 4th Oct 2015, 10:57pm

And the usual drivel we've come to expect from Glasgow 'Life' ...

QUOTE
Cuban dance performances and tales of Glasgow's slave trade are among events taking place this month to mark Black History Month.

The programme was launched last night at Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum with an evening hosted by the actor Sanjeev Kohli.

Events and activities will be taking place across museums and libraries to raise awareness of the role black and ethnic minority men and women played in shaping Scotland's past. They include free lunchtime talks at the Gallery of Modern Art, covering the colonial merchants of Glasgow and the black minstrelsy in Scotland, and an event at Woodside library on Saturday with world music, food and stalls.

Every Friday during October there will be Friday Film Fest at Scotland Street Museum and the Burrell Collection will be hosting an exhibition, It Wisnae Us, chronicling Glasgow's role in slavery.

At the Riverside museum, there will be two free talks on Asian migration to Glasgow in the 1960s and Glasgow in the American Civil War.

The programme will end with Cuban dance performances and dynamic drumming workshops at Kelvingrove Museum on October 31.

GG.

Posted by: Scotsman 5th Oct 2015, 01:59pm

Try telling the people who lived in the slums how they got rich because of slavery.... I am sure that they would not have agreed!! The poor in Glasgow in the times these clowns are talking about lived and died as badly as did the slaves with the chains on.

Where is the apology to them??

Posted by: john.mcn 5th Oct 2015, 06:08pm

Scotsman, years ago i had a person online accuse us Scots of getting rich off the backs of slavery , i assume he was of Afro carribean heritage as it was his pet subject. When i informed him that most Scots of that time lived in abject poverty with some not even getting wages but 'script' that didn't fully cover the rent on the company home and food so the kids were sent out to work, his reply was that they had jobs so they benefited.. You cant win with these people, they are professional 'victims' and pointing out slavery has existed in some form or another for thousands of years or that the North African Barbary states raided European coastlines for hundreds of years for slaves fell on deaf ears (or blind eyes as it was online wink.gif ).. They're the same people who think only 'white' people can be racist.

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 5th Oct 2015, 06:22pm

I don't see any point in 'apologising' for something that none of us actually had any hand in. It smacks of 'inherited guilt', like the religious dogma of Original Sin.

It's history, and should be taught, and it's fair to say where it is regrettable, but apology implies culpability and blame, and who actually has that?

Posted by: GG 5th Oct 2015, 10:47pm

QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 5th Oct 2015, 07:30pm) *
[...] but apology implies culpability and blame, and who actually has that?

This may not surprise us, but a letter writer to the Herald today suggests who the finger of culpability and blame can be pointed directly at, and it's not the people of Glasgow:

QUOTE
Prime Minister David Cameron’s visit to Jamaica may not have generated the publicity he was hoping for, but it was quite helpful in revealing his refusal to consider UK reparations to Jamaica for past involvement in slavery. Pity that, considering his own family’s benefit from slavery to the tune of £3 million payment for the loss of slaves.

The Guardian covered the story last week:

How do we know Cameron has slave owners in family background?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/29/how-do-we-know-david-cameron-has-slave-owning-ancestor

The very richest exploiting the very poorest ... some things never change.

GG.

Posted by: wombat 5th Oct 2015, 10:48pm

QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 5th Oct 2015, 07:30pm) *
I don't see any point in 'apologising' for something that none of us actually had any hand in. It smacks of 'inherited guilt', like the religious dogma of Original Sin. rolleyes.gif original sins a myth alex slavery was'nt

It's history, and should be taught, and it's fair to say where it is regrettable, but apology implies culpability and blame, and who actually has that?


sad.gif the descendants of the sh..e that sold living human flesh for GOLD yes.gif

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 5th Oct 2015, 10:57pm

QUOTE (wombat @ 5th Oct 2015, 11:56pm) *
original sins a myth alex slavery was'nt

For sure, though that wasn't quite the point of the allusion. If guilt can be inherited, what other burdens and liabilities might fall on your shoulders from centuries past?

Posted by: Talisman 5th Oct 2015, 10:59pm

In Govan, at the end of the war I lived in third world conditions that the R.S.P.C.A. would have sued you for keeping dogs in. Rich on the backs of slaves???? This was the 20th century!

Posted by: wombat 5th Oct 2015, 11:05pm

QUOTE (Talisman @ 6th Oct 2015, 12:07am) *
In Govan, at the end of the war I lived in third world conditions that the R.S.P.C.A. would have sued you for keeping dogs in. Rich on the backs of slaves???? This was the 20th century!


thumbup.gif well said mate thumbup.gif

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 5th Oct 2015, 11:24pm

QUOTE (Talisman @ 6th Oct 2015, 12:07am) *
In Govan, at the end of the war I lived in third world conditions that the R.S.P.C.A. would have sued you for keeping dogs in. Rich on the backs of slaves???? This was the 20th century!

In these same years, my parents, too, struggled in a tenement in Kinning Park with an ootside lavvie shared with four other families, nae toilet seat and dried-in keech doon the sides, the constant smell of burning paper from the back yards and middens, building rubble and filthy puddles, and bringing up five weans in a room and kitchen. My faither, a hard-working man who was never idle a day in his life until an illness floored him, would be astonished to think he was rich on the back of the slave trade. And I daresay there's mony of a certain age here would recognise in him echoes of their ain faithers.

Posted by: Dave Grieve 6th Oct 2015, 06:57am

QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 6th Oct 2015, 01:32am) *
In these same years, my parents, too, struggled in a tenement in Kinning Park with an ootside lavvie shared with four other families, nae toilet seat and dried-in keech doon the sides, the constant smell of burning paper from the back yards and middens, building rubble and filthy puddles, and bringing up five weans in a room and kitchen. My faither, a hard-working man who was never idle a day in his life until an illness floored him, would be astonished to think he was rich on the back of the slave trade. And I daresay there's mony of a certain age here would recognise in him echoes of their ain faithers.


thumbup.gif

Posted by: zascot 6th Oct 2015, 08:25am

QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 6th Oct 2015, 12:32am) *
In these same years, my parents, too, struggled in a tenement in Kinning Park with an ootside lavvie shared with four other families, nae toilet seat and dried-in keech doon the sides, the constant smell of burning paper from the back yards and middens, building rubble and filthy puddles, and bringing up five weans in a room and kitchen. My faither, a hard-working man who was never idle a day in his life until an illness floored him, would be astonished to think he was rich on the back of the slave trade. And I daresay there's mony of a certain age here would recognise in him echoes of their ain faithers.

Well said Alex. brings back memories, mine were from Townhead or Toonheid tae give it its proper name.

Posted by: wombat 6th Oct 2015, 07:43pm

QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 6th Oct 2015, 12:32am) *
In these same years, my parents, too, struggled in a tenement in Kinning Park with an ootside lavvie shared with four other families, nae toilet seat and dried-in keech doon the sides,


laugh.gif Ah memories laugh.gif

 

Posted by: Talisman 8th Oct 2015, 04:10pm

QUOTE (Alex MacPhee @ 5th Oct 2015, 11:32pm) *
In these same years, my parents, too, struggled in a tenement in Kinning Park with an ootside lavvie shared with four other families, nae toilet seat and dried-in keech doon the sides, the constant smell of burning paper from the back yards and middens, building rubble and filthy puddles, and bringing up five weans in a room and kitchen. My faither, a hard-working man who was never idle a day in his life until an illness floored him, would be astonished to think he was rich on the back of the slave trade. And I daresay there's mony of a certain age here would recognise in him echoes of their ain faithers.

Those "Activists" who would have us on our knees apologising for every imagined slight to the "third world" are totally unaware that the likes of yee an me and many others here lived a third world life when we were young.

Posted by: Betsy2009 8th Oct 2015, 04:38pm

Keeping it simple - NO!
It was nothing to do with us.

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 8th Oct 2015, 05:22pm

QUOTE (wombat @ 6th Oct 2015, 08:51pm) *
Ah memories

The picture! My eyes, my eyes!

All that dried-in keech. Brings back the memory of trying not to sit on the lavvie for a jobbie in case your legs touched somebody else's dried keech ; but being only five, legs no' long enough tae stand wi' your rear end perched over the drop. And the cistern, high above your heid when you're only five, sinister and menacing like a rusty giant in the gloom (there was nae lights in the lavvie), and the fear that when you pulled on the chain, the hale jing bang would tip ower and come crashing doon on your heid, spilling dirty watter, blood, and brains everywhere.

Oh, the joys of our first hoose in Pollok, with an inside lavvie and the cistern was just right at your back, nae danger of pulverising your skull wi' the next flush. And a light tae read the scraps o' newspaper torn intae wee squares. Aye, we even did re-cyclin' in those days!

Posted by: bilbo.s 8th Oct 2015, 06:14pm

Has anyone on here actually contributed to the disgusting state of a bog, as so graphically, almost lovingly described here ? I am absolutely sure I did not. Who were those depraved people responsible? I know full well that this is not just some twisted sense of nostalgia creating these images, as I certainly witnessed such horrors as a child. Later on, as a Christmas postie in Townhead I witnessed scenes which have remained imprinted on my memory cells. I was brought up in Shettleston, hardly your garden suburb, but the Dobbies Loan area was an eye-opener (and a nostril opener) to my tender senses. I have never seen anything like it in all my travels since then. The question remains - who were the perpetrators ? Who makes the slums?

Posted by: wombat 8th Oct 2015, 07:43pm

rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif

 

Posted by: Betsy2009 8th Oct 2015, 09:02pm

Do you think these people will apologise?

"The four richest families in Scotland are worth £1 billion more than the poorest 20 per cent of the country’s population, according to new research which calls on ministers to do more to tackle inequality.

The combined wealth of the Grant-Gordon whisky family, Highland Spring water owner Mahdi al-Tajir, oil tycoon Sir Ian Wood and former Harrods owner Mohammed Fayed dwarfs that of the one million people who make up Scotland’s poorest 20 per cent, according to a report by Oxfam Scotland."


I loved this ...

"Oxfam’s report outlines a series of measures that MSPs could take to reduce inequality in Scotland. It suggests sending cabinet ministers and senior civil servants on a “poverty training course” so they fully understand the realities of living below the breadline."


http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/scotlands-four-richest-families-worth-%c2%a31-billion-more-than-poorest-20percent-of-the-population/ar-AAfd6HA?ocid=spartandhp

Can I go on a course to learn how to live the rich life please?


Posted by: serabash 8th Oct 2015, 09:02pm

I was brought up in a tenement in tollcross rd with an outside toilet until I was around 10 or 11 when my dad had a bathroom fittede in one of the bed recess's. we never had a toilet you describe though ours was always kept clean had lino on the floor and an electric light in it and andrex paper hanging there and even a net curtain on the window. think we must have been toffs. was there really any need though for the filth?

Posted by: Betsy2009 8th Oct 2015, 10:29pm

Andrex paper - heavens Serabash you really were posh.

Quite right about the cleaning though.

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 8th Oct 2015, 11:11pm

Not sure I'd call "dried-in keech" a loving description!

This would be around 1955/6. The lavvie was on the half-landing, and each flat in the landing was supposed to take a turn at cleaning the stairs (does anybody remember Blanco?) and lavatory, and I remember my mum doing it, and Mrs Crawford, but I don't remember any of the others taking a turn, though at my young age then, that's maybe just a memory glitch. It got filthy very quickly, though. Families were big in those days.

Every flat in the landing had a key, and it was one of those big keys, like a jail warder's key, which would hang on a hook behind your front door. When you needed to go, you'd take the key, and before trying to put it in the lock, tap the door with the key. If anyone was inside, they'd tap back on the door with their key, and you'd go away and come back later ; no reply, and you were free to go in and do your business.

I didn't like it, but I guess my mum must have been training me off the potty under the bed to use the outside toilet, and I remember going out, down to the half-landing, tapping the door, no reply, and going in. I managed to hoist myself up onto the lavvie, and sat there waiting for my innards to do their work of peristalsis and evacuation. A minute or so later, I heard heavy footsteps coming down from the landing, stop outside the door, then the tap-tap-tap of a key on the outside. Sitting there, I realised I was too small to reach forward to the door and tap it with the key clenched in my hand, and tried to say 'I'm in!'. Whether the person outside was hard of hearing, or my little voice was drowned out by the noise of any activity going on behind me, I can't tell, but a key went in the door from the outside, the door swung open, and there was the elderly and very wide Mrs Boyd standing there, me with my ankles dangling off the floor, trousers round my shoes, and caught in mid-delivery. Noisy mid-delivery. The door shut hurriedly and I heard the footsteps go back up stairs, but by then the psychological damage was done. I still wake up during the night, six decades later, having palpitations from yet another dream in which Mrs Boyd has haunted the lavvie of every house I've lived in, right to the present day. There are few pleasures in life like a right good - and uninterrupted - jobbie. Mrs Boyd ruined that for me for life.

Puir soul, never meant any harm, either. Still, sh*t happens.

Posted by: bilbo.s 9th Oct 2015, 07:06am

QUOTE (serabash @ 8th Oct 2015, 11:10pm) *
I was brought up in a tenement in tollcross rd with an outside toilet until I was around 10 or 11 when my dad had a bathroom fittede in one of the bed recess's. we never had a toilet you describe though ours was always kept clean had lino on the floor and an electric light in it and andrex paper hanging there and even a net curtain on the window. think we must have been toffs. was there really any need though for the filth?


My point exactly, Serabash. It seems that Glasgow poor were not all the noble savages some would portray in their faux nostalgia.

Posted by: ashfield 9th Oct 2015, 08:33am

Love the new direction of this thread, much more appealing than the original intention smile.gif

Alex has described my own experience to a tee, except the door of our "inconvenience" had no lock and was full of holes sad.gif Privacy was only marginally guaranteed when I was old enough to sit with my feet against the door to keep it closed laugh.gif

ps, it was a choice of bit of Daily Record or Izal, liberated from Ruchill hospital by a relative thumbup.gif

Posted by: serabash 10th Oct 2015, 01:04am

aye betsy I think we must have been toffs lol because it was always andrex at my mammy's and my grannies toilets maybe because everybody in the family had a job, but my my great granny I hated going to and she had an inside bathroom but it was newspaper on a string and that is my memory of her house the smell of newspaper and stewed tea because she always had the teapot on the range and just kept topping it up with more tea and water all day long. oh how I hated going to visit her. I refused to eat or drink in her house too as she didn't have a nice clean house like my mammy or granny doc.lol. think maybe I was a spoilt wee bisom wink.gif

Posted by: Talisman 17th Oct 2015, 01:41pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 8th Oct 2015, 06:22pm) *
Has anyone on here actually contributed to the disgusting state of a bog, as so graphically, almost lovingly described here ? I am absolutely sure I did not. Who were those depraved people responsible? I know full well that this is not just some twisted sense of nostalgia creating these images, as I certainly witnessed such horrors as a child. Later on, as a Christmas postie in Townhead I witnessed scenes which have remained imprinted on my memory cells. I was brought up in Shettleston, hardly your garden suburb, but the Dobbies Loan area was an eye-opener (and a nostril opener) to my tender senses. I have never seen anything like it in all my travels since then. The question remains - who were the perpetrators ? Who makes the slums?

Bilbo, I take it you never made it, as far as I did once , to Calcutta? smile.gif

Posted by: Betsy2009 17th Oct 2015, 03:08pm

It does help if you have a flushing loo instead of a hole in the ground.

I don't understand it either. I've been in some miserable places as a kid but the families have always cleaned their toilets including the shared ones on the landings.

I think that a dirty loo is a form of depression, just giving up, so it's sad rather than just being unhygienic.

Posted by: Tally Rand 19th Oct 2015, 08:40pm

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 17th Oct 2015, 03:16pm) *
It does help if you have a flushing loo instead of a hole in the ground.

I don't understand it either. I've been in some miserable places as a kid but the families have always cleaned their toilets including the shared ones on the landings.

I think that a dirty loo is a form of depression, just giving up, so it's sad rather than just being unhygienic.

Please do not be casual in your assessment of a lousy situation. When our toilets backed up and there was no where else to go, the stinking landlords and their rotten factors would let the toilets, built before you were never fixed renewed or serviced in that time, before they would pay for a plumber to come and fix it until the next time.

There were thousands who suffered this filth and NOT through their own lack of hygiene.

Posted by: Betsy2009 19th Oct 2015, 09:06pm

Well that's told me!
Sorry Tally I obviously didn't understand because I must have been really lucky as a kid. No money but a loo that worked.

Posted by: Alex MacPhee 19th Oct 2015, 11:39pm

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 17th Oct 2015, 04:16pm) *
I don't understand it either. I've been in some miserable places as a kid but the families have always cleaned their toilets including the shared ones on the landings.

I think that a dirty loo is a form of depression, just giving up, so it's sad rather than just being unhygienic.

Strangely, this turn of the thread had me thinking about my experiences and recollections as a bairn growing up in 1950s Kinning Park, and has, I think, uncovered for me the source of a phobia I have had for a long time.

Although we lived in what are now called slums, I remember the women in the close always taking a turn to clean the stairs. (The toilets were harder, perhaps due to low grade plumbing as has been suggested.) I remember them on hands and knees with scrubbing brushes, and cakes of Blanco for white edgings. It's been said that leaving a place untidy or unclean acts as a kind of incentive to dump more rubbish, whereas keeping it clean acts as a disincentive to dropping litter. The more you keep on top of it, the less likely you are to be overwhelmed by litter. Toilets that were hard to clean must have been soul destroying. But I remember the close and the stairs being clean.

And that got me to thinking about how my mum, and other mums around, regularly cleaned the windows. First, they'd clean the insides, usually with Windolene (for I remember the pink syrup that went to white as it was applied with a damp cloth), then they'd clean the outside. To do that, my mum would lift the sash window, sit out on the window ledge, then pull the window back down on her lap, and proceed to 'Windolene' the outside. We were on the first floor, and I used to look out the window and be terrified of the drop to the ground. I'd look across the street, and there'd be a woman up on the third floor, a petrifying height, sitting out on the ledge over the street, cleaning the outside of her window. And always, those headscarves like turbans on their heads, hands waving to and fro as the windows became white with the drying Windolene. I was no older than about five, and the sight of these women at those heights, and my mum especially, with the possibility uppermost in my mind that they would fall down to the street below, terrified me. When you're that age, the thought of anything happening to your mum and mainstay of your life, is one of the scariest nightmares for a child.

All my life, I have suffered from acrophobia, which is, they say, an irrational fear of heights, though I can assert that it doesn't feel irrational to me. (It's not the same thing as vertigo, which is different and connected to inner ear problems.) So all my life, I have simply avoided situations involving height, and where it's been unavoidable, the fear returns and is palpable. It's a fear that's just always been there, but it has only been on thinking of those memories triggered by this thread, and the association with seeing my mum hanging over the ledge of a perilous height, that's it's dawned on me whence this deep-seated fear has originated. That's taken six decades for me to realise.

I have a 'lady who does', and one of the things she insists on doing, is clean the outside of my kitchen windows. They're not sash, they open out. But my kitchen is on the first floor of my house, and she insists on standing up on the window ledge and leaning out ... I've now bought one of those long telescopic window cleaning brushes that reach up from terra firma on the outside.

Posted by: Talisman 21st Oct 2015, 09:36am

Those women, as did my mother who worked 5 and 1/2 days a week in the shipyards, cleaned the stairs, some of them using white wash to decorate the edge of the stairs. There were those who even used a red chalk based cleaner to "redden" up the red sandstone on the walls of their tenement, took their turns at cleaning the outside wash houses and washed their bairns every day in "Cauld tap Watter". They never ceased to clean and scrub and once a week at the steamie. My father would do the windows from the outside as he did not want to risk my mother doing it. Then the dishes in on sink with water boiled in a kettle. Then they did all the cooking! I think I suffered Hydrophobia from all the cold water washes. No hot water in oor hoose and every other. There should be a memorial to them in Glasgow; never mind comedians and comic singers.

Posted by: dizzybint 29th Jul 2016, 07:29pm

QUOTE (norrie123 @ 29th Apr 2013, 08:48pm) *
Its not something that I feel guilty of

No doubt right enough, Slavery was evil


What next, should we apologise for all the sins of previous generations?

Bye for now, norrie

agreed Norrie not only that but this was the very rich who were into slavery not the common man.. why should we say sorry for our past. when it had nothing at all to do with us..and that applies to anything else from the past that we dont condone or had anything to do with....

Posted by: angel 29th Jul 2016, 10:47pm

QUOTE (dizzybint @ 29th Jul 2016, 07:29pm) *
agreed Norrie not only that but this was the very rich who were into slavery not the common man.. why should we say sorry for our past. when it had nothing at all to do with us..and that applies to anything else from the past that we dont condone or had anything to do with....


Was Scotland , Glasgow ' involved in the slave trade " You Betchca " and Glasgow reaped the benefits from this crime against humanity whether you were rich or poor .

the rest of this pathetic story is public knowledge , and if others should be interested , ' for starters ... try Google

Posted by: Billy Boil 30th Jul 2016, 12:16am

QUOTE (angel @ 29th Jul 2016, 10:47pm) *
Was Scotland , Glasgow ' involved in the slave trade " You Betchca " and Glasgow reaped the benefits from this crime against humanity whether you were rich or poor .

the rest of this pathetic story is public knowledge , and if others should be interested , ' for starters ... try Google

And investigate Fairfield's Where I spent my indentured apprentice ship.
Yon wis slavery if there ever wis!!!

Posted by: DannyH 30th Jul 2016, 09:35am

QUOTE (angel @ 29th Jul 2016, 11:47pm) *
Was Scotland , Glasgow ' involved in the slave trade " You Betchca " and Glasgow reaped the benefits from this crime against humanity whether you were rich or poor .

the rest of this pathetic story is public knowledge , and if others should be interested , ' for starters ... try Google



Hello Angel

So the poor of Glasgow benefited from the slavery trade? I can't find the words to respond to that comment. I think I will settle for 'Pathetic'. You have obviously ignored, during your Google ventures, the conditions the working people of Glasgow were living and working in during the slave trade period.

Danny Harris


Posted by: angel 30th Jul 2016, 05:49pm

this is an article from the Scotsman newspaper dated March 2007 . on the Glasgow Slave trade , I Googled for it .

People did find employment because of the Slave trade, and regarding their living conditions , those conditions existed long before that period . I am not to blame for this Slavery nor does any other on this board , but I do not stick my head in the sand and say it did not happen .

http://www.scotsman.com/news/glasgow-s-dark-secret-1-691912

Posted by: DannyH 30th Jul 2016, 10:22pm

QUOTE (angel @ 30th Jul 2016, 06:49pm) *
this is an article from the Scotsman newspaper dated March 2007 . on the Glasgow Slave trade , I Googled for it .

People did find employment because of the Slave trade, and regarding their living conditions , those conditions existed long before that period . I am not to blame for this Slavery nor does any other on this board , but I do not stick my head in the sand and say it did not happen .

http://www.scotsman.com/news/glasgow-s-dark-secret-1-691912



Hello Angel

I don't think anyone on this forum has ever claimed the Slave Trade didn't happen. We don't have to go on Google for evidence of it. Some of us who still live in the Glasgow area are reminded of it daily, when we pass through the centre of Glasgow. There are still some magnificent buildings standing there which belonged to the very wealthy from past eras.

For some morbid reason, you have the affrontry to include the the poor people of Glasgow who lived during that era, as if they benefited from it. Many Glaswegians, and other workers in Scotland, worked for long hours for a pittance. It is now 2016 and we have people working on zero hours contracts, and one major employer in the retail lindustry was accused last week of its workers being subjected to Victorian times conditions.

On behalf of the citizens of Glagow, thank you for informing us that the Slave Trade existed. And you know what, see that article in the Scotsman, it was written 9 YEARS AGO. Took you a long time to find out about the Slave Trade, didn't it? Lots of us could have told you about the Slave Trade if you had only asked us.

We could have told you all about Blantyre, and David Livingstone. There is a memorial Park in Blantyre, Scotland, which thousands of people visit every year. I mention Blantyre, Scotland, because there is a town named Blantyre in honour of him in the African continent.

Danny Harris

Posted by: angel 31st Jul 2016, 12:23am

On behalf of the citizens of Glagow, thank you for informing us that the Slave Trade existed. And you know what, see that article in the Scotsman, it was written 9 YEARS AGO. Took you a long time to find out about the Slave Trade, didn't it? Lots of us could have told you about the Slave Trade if you had only asked us.
-------------------------------------------------------------


I know when the article was written , I already mentioned the date yes.gif .

but 9yrs on , it still would not make the slightest difference in the story of Glasgow and the slave trade , I am well aware of that history as I know others are . but I did post the article to inform YOU in particular .............. No other reason .!


PS As a matter of fact , again for your information , I have posted on this topic quite a few times .

Posted by: wombat 31st Jul 2016, 01:12am

thumbup.gif good furr yoo hen ,don't be bullied laugh.gif


 

Posted by: DannyH 31st Jul 2016, 11:51am

QUOTE (wombat @ 31st Jul 2016, 02:12am) *
:thumbup: good furr yoo hen ,don't be bullied :lol:


Hello Angel and Wombat

Just had a wee thought. How about you two starting a campaign to get your respective Governments to give back the land that you live in, to the indigenous people who inhabited it. Probably a waste of time, because you decimated them. Not you two personally of course, but neither did the poor people of Glasgow benefit from the slave trade.

By the way, the title of this topic is, SHOULD GLASGOW APOLOGISE FOR SLAVERY, not "Why are Glaswegians burying their heads in the sand"

Wombat, forums are forums, which mean discussion. If someone writes in the strident tones that Angel does, and doesn't expect a reply which doesn't agree with hers, then she has been away from Glasgow too long, and obviously you have been too. You continuous use of inane pictures sums you up. A coward.

Danny Harris

Posted by: angel 31st Jul 2016, 12:12pm

QUOTE (DannyH @ 31st Jul 2016, 10:51am) *
Hello Angel and Wombat

Just had a wee thought. How about you two starting a campaign to get your respective Governments to give back the land that you live in, to the indigenous people who inhabited it. Probably a waste of time, because you decimated them. Not you two personally of course, but neither did the poor people of Glasgow benefit from the slave trade.

By the way, the title of this topic is, SHOULD GLASGOW APOLOGISE FOR SLAVERY, not "Why are Glaswegians burying their heads in the sand"

Wombat, forums are forums, which mean discussion. If someone writes in the strident tones that Angel does, and doesn't expect a reply which doesn't agree with hers, then she has been away from Glasgow too long, and obviously you have been too. You continuous use of inane pictures sums you up. A coward.

Danny Harris


More nonsense coming from you .

wacko.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: taurus 31st Jul 2016, 09:31pm

I just watched "Roots" the new series,(not as good as the original in my opinion),far too violent,how the slaves were treated in the growing of tobacco,and I`m so sad to say,all through it, all I could picture was the magnificent buildings in Glasgow,which I only recently heard that were built on the proceeds of the tobacco trade.

Posted by: DannyH 31st Jul 2016, 10:11pm

QUOTE (taurus @ 31st Jul 2016, 10:31pm) *
I just watched "Roots" the new series,(not as good as the original in my opinion),far too violent,how the slaves were treated in the growing of tobacco,and I`m so sad to say,all through it, all I could picture was the magnificent buildings in Glasgow,which I only recently heard that were built on the proceeds of the tobacco trade.


Hello Taurus

Could you picture any poor people living in these magnificent buildings? They actually lived within walking distance from the magnificent buildings you are referring to. The buildings they lived were actually still around in the1960's. There are plenty of photos of them which can still be found. The one I lived in won't appear. It collapsed in 1959 when my parents were still living in it!

Regards

Danny Harris

Posted by: Dykejumper 1st Aug 2016, 09:38pm

Surely more important to wipe out Modern Day slavery which is still rife in parts of Africa and
even here in the UK.

Posted by: bilbo.s 1st Aug 2016, 09:49pm

QUOTE (Dykejumper @ 1st Aug 2016, 11:38pm) *
Surely more important to wipe out Modern Day slavery which is still rife in parts of Africa and
even here in the UK.


Quite right DJ. No, I am not being sarcastic!

Posted by: wombat 1st Aug 2016, 10:59pm

QUOTE (angel @ 31st Jul 2016, 12:12pm) *
More nonsense coming from you .

laugh.gif laugh.gif


yes.gif laugh.gif Bwahahaaha

 

Posted by: taurus 1st Aug 2016, 11:42pm

QUOTE (DannyH @ 1st Aug 2016, 08:11am) *
Hello Taurus

Could you picture any poor people living in these magnificent buildings? They actually lived within walking distance from the magnificent buildings you are referring to. The buildings they lived were actually still around in the1960's. There are plenty of photos of them which can still be found. The one I lived in won't appear. It collapsed in 1959 when my parents were still living in it!

Regards

Danny Harris

I understand perfectly what you are saying Danny,regarding the haves and have nots. I just cringe a bit now to think what suffering the slaves endured for rich folk to get richer. And by the way,the tenement building I grew up in and felt safe in,and didn`t realise at the time that we were deprived,it got demolished early 60`s because the people on the 3rd story pulled off the doors to light a fire in the middle of their floor and set fire to the whole building,all this ,while my poor mother slept.So I know all about the great divide between the rich and the poor.But I can`t help thinking,we were still better off than the poor slaves in Virginia.

Posted by: john.mcn 2nd Aug 2016, 06:21am

All those 12 year olds sent down mines, up chimneys and forced into prostitution due to poverty never had it so good in the 18th century wacko.gif

Posted by: wombat 2nd Aug 2016, 09:44pm

QUOTE (taurus @ 31st Jul 2016, 09:31pm) *
I just watched "Roots" the new series,(not as good as the original in my opinion),far too violent,how the slaves were treated in the growing of tobacco,and I`m so sad to say,all through it, all I could picture was the magnificent buildings in Glasgow,which I only recently heard that were built on the proceeds of the tobacco trade.


the white house was built using slave labour, some of the dumps I seen in brigton

a slaves quarters wid be cleaner. laugh.gif

i doubt the poor benefited, after all tobacco was another commodity from the rich to take their money and their health rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Billy Boil 2nd Aug 2016, 09:48pm

Scotland abolished slavery in 1778, England 1803 and all territories 1n 1833. Britain was the first to abolish the Trans Atlantic slave trade, stopping all "Blackbirders" and impounding their human cargoes. France was 1794. There were few if none who abolished slavery prior to Scotland doing so. To maintain that Scotland made profit from the trade ( however indirectly as tobacco and sugar was picked by slaves) is in this day and age drawing a long bow. The emotive ignorance and reaction on the part of the "bleeding hearts" who take great pride in holding the conscience of a nation out to dry, serves no purpose than to afford some measure of righteous indignation and moral superiority to those who can fathom no lives outside of their own mediocre inaccurate interpretation of history.

The United States may have by the 13th amendment abolished slavery but in the southern states they, the African Americans still had no vote or voice until the late 1960s. In our own (some of us anyway) lifetime we saw Nazi Germany produce its' economic miracles with a vast pool of slaves, starved and murdered in their millions.

Lets hear some breast beating and chest thumping about them. Remembering those responsible went on to lead happy and productive lives, no guilt on their part, right into the 1980s and leave Scotland especially Glasgow out of this farce of historical retrospect.

I was not there, my great, great granny was not there and my family was sleeping under that big bridge in Glasgow having been cleared from the land they occupied for centuries. Lets hear it for them. 1778!!!

Posted by: wombat 2nd Aug 2016, 10:13pm

rolleyes.gif what happened to the human cargo they impounded ?