Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Glasgow Boards/Forums _ Other Discussions _ Uk Independence Referendum - Brexit

Posted by: Kemedian 9th Jun 2015, 11:27pm

QUOTE (Alex Salmond, SNP Foreign Affairs spokesman @ Westminster today)
When you propose a referendum it should be because you are proposing a change, you are proposing a significant constitutional change, whether it be for the alternative vote, or Scottish independence, or Scottish devolution or Welsh devolution, you are proposing a change and you are looking for democratic sanction, the sovereignty of the people to back your change. But that is not the position of the Prime Minister, nobody seriously believes that the Prime Minister wants to take this country out of the European Union, the referendum is a tactic.
http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/1322646-eu-referendum-bill-clears-first-commons-hurdle-with-labour-support/

53 SNP MPs today voted against holding a Referendum on EU membership (and lost), for reasons explained by the MP for Gordon above.

Didn't the SNP say it wants to give Scotland a stronger voice at Westminster?

I want my voice to be heard. I say, bring it on, and no to UK Independence!

The UKIP will be delighted, of course, because the Referendum will present it with a huge platform on which to get its message across. It will be hoping to replicate the rise of the SNP on the back of last year's Scottish Independence Referendum (probably more than realistically hoping to achieve anything near the 45% of electorate support won by Scotland's very popular Yes campaign).

Politics in Scotland is thriving due to our own Indy Ref. Shouldn't our 56 SNP MPs be in favour of keeping the ball rolling? Another healthy constitutional debate, this time about Britain's membership of the EU, is surely in the public interest! Scotland did, after all, vote to be a continuing member state of the UK. Yet, by voting against the Bill in Parliament today, it could be argued that the SNP wants to deny the people of the UK (including us) the chance to have their say, which by definition would be undemocratic.

I am unconvinced by the SNP argument against holding an EU Referendum and, in my opinion, today the 56 failed their first test. The Scottish Government won the right to hold the last one, and it's only right and fair that the British Government gets to hold this one.

We learned where we stand in the debate on Scottish independence, and that's an important reason why I'm in favour of having another in/out referendum on Britain's EU membership. While knowing where we stand doesn't end the debate, it does however allow us to move forward with greater certainty and confidence (providing, of course, the Government accepts the outcome and isn't intending to embark on a 'neverendum' until it wins, and democracy loses).

Posted by: john.mcn 9th Jun 2015, 11:57pm

Salmond is right though, Cameron is offering a referendum but doesn't want the UK to leave. We are simply getting one because the Tories needed to take the thunder away from Farage and UKIP, it worked. People who may have been Tories but wanted out of the EU stuck with Cameron.
Labour have now 180'ed because they are bricking it.
The SNP didn't fail their first(???) test they passed with flying colours, they were against it prior to the election and are still against it, sticking to their guns or shock horror, their election manifesto is why they are popular and why your party who flips theirs for power is not...

Posted by: Kemedian 10th Jun 2015, 12:12am

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 10th Jun 2015, 01:05am) *
why they are popular and why your party who flips theirs for power is not

Why do you insist on associating me with a particular Party, when I hold no Political allegiance whatsoever. I am simply a voter who makes up his mind at every election depending on what's being said by each Party.

Salmond accuses Cameron of using the EU Ref as a tactic, and regarding this point you are failing to make I accuse you of the same. dry.gif

Posted by: flam 10th Jun 2015, 09:28am

I am with the SNP we must stay in EUROPE

Posted by: Betsy2009 10th Jun 2015, 09:39am

Shame we couldn't just go back to the Common Market / Free Trade.

Posted by: Kemedian 10th Jun 2015, 03:05pm

QUOTE (flam @ 10th Jun 2015, 10:36am) *
I am with the SNP we must stay in EUROPE

So you're against having a referendum, Flam?

I'd be interested in a poll of members on this very question:


'Are you for or against holding an EU referendum?'


Perhaps someone else could set up that poll, as I don't know how to? GG ? unsure.gif

Posted by: carmella 10th Jun 2015, 04:26pm

I have always said that I did not want to be 'in Europe', actually, what I really mean is that I don't mind being in Europe, but what I resent is that it is Europe who tell us what to do, what to sell, and under what conditions. I don't want them to add their 2c worth into our legal decisions.

In other words, none of this was done when we were part of the Common Market, so I want out if it means staying under the present conditions, there is much I dislike about it. We can still trade with Europe as we did in the past.

We should be left to make our own decisions in these islands that are the United Kingdom.

Posted by: DannyH 10th Jun 2015, 10:00pm

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 10th Jun 2015, 10:47am) *
Shame we couldn't just go back to the Common Market / Free Trade.



Hello Betsy

I agree with you entirely. The problem now is that many UK politicians see the European Union as another step up on the career ladder for themselves. I have lost count of the number of times I have read press reports, that former Westminster politicians have been given an unelected position in the EU, giving them a lucrative salary with expenses, all as a show of appreciation for the work they have done on behalf of their UK political party.

We can hardly expect Alex Salmond to go to the House Of Lords and save face, can we. However a few years down the line when he is suceeded by younger SNP politicians, Brussells will be a nice wee sideline. Neil Kinnock will be able to give him advice on how to make the most out of this 'little earner'. It is funny (but not funny Ha Ha) how an organisation that holds so much power, is full of has-been politicians.

Potugal, Italy, Spain and Greece all shining examples of why we should be in Europe. Countries that were formerly behind the Iron Curtain now forming a significant part of the EU. Turkey wanting to come in. The Ukraine been torn apart because some of their politicians want to be part of the EU.
You know Betsy, the more I ramble on, the more I agree with the one simple sentence you have posted. Well done!

Regards

Danny

Posted by: john.mcn 10th Jun 2015, 10:38pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 10th Jun 2015, 12:20am) *
Why do you insist on associating me with a particular Party, when I hold no Political allegiance whatsoever. I am simply a voter who makes up his mind at every election depending on what's being said by each Party.

Salmond accuses Cameron of using the EU Ref as a tactic, and regarding this point you are failing to make I accuse you of the same. dry.gif


During the ref you insisted you were an SNP supporter but wanted to keep the union. In the run up to the election you were either for Labour or the Snp only to then come out of the broom cupboard to say you were Libdem. They couldn't hold onto their support never mind attract so called 'new voters' so you'll have to forgive me for doubting that you chose them at the last minute despite them refusing to work with the SNP (something that you say you dropped Labour for).
Now here you are criticising the SNP for having the audacity for actually following through on their election manifesto by voting against the EU bill going through parliament. It was right there in black and white for anyone to see and the people responded by sending 56 down to Westminster, if anything they should be commended for sticking to their guns.
Now bear in mind i am actually for EU change and if it doesn't then i will be putting my mark against the 'get me the hell outa here' box so my view goes against the SNPs but i would have been disappointed with them if they voted for the EU referendum when they were against it in the run up to the election, other parties it seems have no qualms about doing so though.

Posted by: Tally Rand 10th Jun 2015, 11:22pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 9th Jun 2015, 11:35pm) *
53 SNP MPs today voted against holding a Referendum on EU membership (and lost), for reasons explained by the MP for Gordon above.

Didn't the SNP say it wants to give Scotland a stronger voice at Westminster?

I want my voice to be heard. I say, bring it on, and no to UK Independence!

The UKIP will be delighted, of course, because the Referendum will present it with a huge platform on which to get its message across. It will be hoping to replicate the rise of the SNP on the back of last year's Scottish Independence Referendum (probably more than realistically hoping to achieve anything near the 45% of electorate support won by Scotland's very popular Yes campaign).

Politics in Scotland is thriving due to our own Indy Ref. Shouldn't our 56 SNP MPs be in favour of keeping the ball rolling? Another healthy constitutional debate, this time about Britain's membership of the EU, is surely in the public interest! Scotland did, after all, vote to be a continuing member state of the UK. Yet, by voting against the Bill in Parliament today, it could be argued that the SNP wants to deny the people of the UK (including us) the chance to have their say, which by definition would be undemocratic.

I am unconvinced by the SNP argument against holding an EU Referendum and, in my opinion, today the 56 failed their first test. The Scottish Government won the right to hold the last one, and it's only right and fair that the British Government gets to hold this one.

We learned where we stand in the debate on Scottish independence, and that's an important reason why I'm in favour of having another in/out referendum on Britain's EU membership. While knowing where we stand doesn't end the debate, it does however allow us to move forward with greater certainty and confidence (providing, of course, the Government accepts the outcome and isn't intending to embark on a 'neverendum' until it wins, and democracy loses).

Nothing was settled in a final sense by the "Loyal and true to the Red White and Blue brigade" 5%ers.

They voted in fear of loosing their darling queen and having a takeover of Scotland by the Vatican.

Posted by: Kemedian 11th Jun 2015, 09:58am

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 10th Jun 2015, 11:46pm) *
I am actually for EU change and if it doesn't then i will be putting my mark against the 'get me the hell outa here' box so my view goes against the SNPs but i would have been disappointed with them if they voted for the EU referendum when they were against it in the run up to the election, other parties it seems have no qualms about doing so though.

I'd like to find out the spread of support/opposition on GG for the SNP's opposition (surprise, surprise) to the Government's proposed EU referendum, but somehow the board isn't allowing me to set up a poll.

Would you mind arranging the poll, while the issue remains live, because it would add to this debate?

Going by the replies above, I'm not sure but I think the score is currently 5 in favour to 2 against holding a referendum.

Posted by: Betsy2009 11th Jun 2015, 10:23am

Well I'm in favour of holding a referendum but fear that it's just a very expensive PR exercise. Big business (including politicians who have fingers in several pies) won't let the UK leave the EU.

Posted by: john.mcn 11th Jun 2015, 05:53pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 11th Jun 2015, 10:06am) *
I'd like to find out the spread of support/opposition on GG for the SNP's opposition (surprise, surprise) to the Government's proposed EU referendum, but somehow the board isn't allowing me to set up a poll.

Would you mind arranging the poll, while the issue remains live, because it would add to this debate?

Going by the replies above, I'm not sure but I think the score is currently 5 in favour to 2 against holding a referendum.



Why do you want to know if people agree with the SNP or not? It was in their manifesto so no one should complain that they did what they said they would do, labour were against having one but come the vote voted for it, so if there's to be any poll it should be asking if people who voted for Labour were miffed they reneged on their manifesto within a month of the election. I have no idea what was in the LibDems manifesto but we all know it's not worth the paper it's printed on anyway.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 11th Jun 2015, 06:07pm

There is no point in using facts to reason with kem John, best if he commissioned his own doorstep poll, i'd love to hear some of the comments he'd get. laugh.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 11th Jun 2015, 08:32pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 11th Jun 2015, 06:15pm) *
There is no point in using facts to reason with kem John, best if he commissioned his own doorstep poll, i'd love to hear some of the comments he'd get. laugh.gif

Perhaps I'd get a mixed response, although I'm not too sure what you're getting at.

As for John's quibble, as we know the SNP now represent/ speak for nearly the whole of Scotland at Westminster, which it seems is taking some supporters time to get used to. Going just by the replies so far, it does not appear however that the people of Scotland speak with one voice on the issue of whether or not to have a referendum. This is an undeniable challenge for the 56 SNP MPs, to effectively act on behalf of Scotland as a whole.

I would be interested in getting an indication of where Scottish opinion sits on the matter, by way of a poll on here. So, if you're reading this Mr Moderator (since I am also unable to use other board functions including private messaging, as I have been for some time), could you help by setting one up (or by enabling me to do so) ?

Posted by: john.mcn 12th Jun 2015, 12:17am



Kem it matters not whether you say they speak for the whole of Scotland or not, they are following through on their manifesto by voting against an EU referendum. They talked about it plenty of times before the election so i dont quite get why you seem surprised or want to 'debate' the issue, they said they'd do it, people voted for them, they did it...end of story..

Posted by: JAGZ1876 12th Jun 2015, 09:13am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 11th Jun 2015, 09:40pm) *
it does not appear however that the people of Scotland speak with one voice on the issue of whether or not to have a referendum.


This may come as a bit of a shock to you but Scotland (nor any other country) has never spoken with "one voice" on any issue.

Posted by: bilbo.s 12th Jun 2015, 09:52am

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 12th Jun 2015, 11:21am) *
This may come as a bit of a shock to you but Scotland (nor any other country) has never spoken with "one voice" on any issue.



Has Kemedian been hearing voices again? rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 12th Jun 2015, 02:49pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 12th Jun 2015, 10:21am) *
This may come as a bit of a shock to you but Scotland (nor any other country) has never spoken with "one voice" on any issue.

Hence, John's point about the debate makes no sense...

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 12th Jun 2015, 01:25am) *
I dont quite get why you want to 'debate' the issue, they said they'd do it, people voted for them, they did it...end of story.

I listened to our MP for Ochil & South Perthshire last night on the telly and, while I agree with her statement below, I can't see why her Party is trying to deny us all the chance to vote, on such a big issue that should matter to everyone.



Posted by: ashfield 12th Jun 2015, 03:27pm

Not sure why but this cartoon just came to mind



Posted by: john.mcn 12th Jun 2015, 03:36pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 12th Jun 2015, 02:57pm) *
Hence, John's point about the debate makes no sense...


I listened to our MP for Ochil & South Perthshire last night on the telly and, while I agree with her statement below, I can't see why her Party is trying to deny us all the chance to vote, on such a big issue that should matter to everyone.





Kem it really is simple, if you want a say on SNP policy then join them, if you dont like their policies then dont vote for them. You are neither a member of the SNP or voted for them so you can hardly bitch about what they said they would do if people voted for them. Again it was in their manifesto and they have a record of at least trying to stick to it so it should come as no surprise that they actually did what they said they would do. i know it's shocking in this day and age of political parties campaigning on an issue and once in a coalition doing the complete opposite but you'll just have to accept that the SNP are the political equivalent of Ronseal, they do exactly what it says in the manifesto.

Oh and the MP for Ochil & South Perthshire is not 'our', 'your' or 'my' MP, she represents people from her constituency not Renfrewshire east, North Lanarkshire or anywhere else.

Posted by: Kemedian 12th Jun 2015, 04:10pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 12th Jun 2015, 04:44pm) *
it was in their manifesto... they do exactly what it says in the manifesto.

I never said it wasn't. But we can still disagree, right???

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 12th Jun 2015, 04:44pm) *
Oh and the MP for Ochil & South Perthshire is not 'our', 'your' or 'my' MP, she represents people from her constituency not Renfrewshire east, North Lanarkshire or anywhere else.

Sheesh! huh.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 12th Jun 2015, 04:17pm

QUOTE (ashfield @ 12th Jun 2015, 04:35pm) *
Not sure why but this cartoon just came to mind




Spot on Ash. laugh.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 12th Jun 2015, 04:20pm

Same to you, Ashfield, and anyone else who jumps in.

Is this what you get online for disagreeing with the SNP nowadays?

Posted by: john.mcn 12th Jun 2015, 05:11pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 12th Jun 2015, 04:18pm) *
I never said it wasn't. But we can still disagree, right???

Disagree about what exactly, do you disagree that the SNP are doing what they said they would do? Should they have about turned on what they said they would do when people voted for them, i say that if they did you would have a problem with that as well. What you have done is started an EU ref which is nothing more than an anti SNP rant, that is your tactic and it is as clear as water from the tap
QUOTE
.

Sheesh! huh.gif



You say she is 'our' mp but it is 'her' party. How can she be our mp when we dont reside in her constituency but you stop short at association with the SNP, going by your logic then surely if she is 'our' MP then the SNP is also our party.

Posted by: john.mcn 12th Jun 2015, 05:15pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 12th Jun 2015, 04:28pm) *
Same to you, Ashfield, and anyone else who jumps in.

Is this what you get online for disagreeing with the SNP nowadays?


Disagree with them by all means but at least try to have a coherent argument, saying the SNP failed their first test when in fact they did exactly what they said they would do is bordering on the type of crap coming from the morons in fleet street.

Posted by: Kemedian 12th Jun 2015, 06:52pm

It's the policy that I'm calling out, John. You'll find my argument, if you wish to debate it, in my original post.

Yes, it's about the SNP - now Scotland's voice at Westminster - which has turned coat and now stands in the way of this referendum. And before you repeat yourself again, last year's referendum was the best thing that's ever happened to the Party. Plus, it stands a very good chance of being on the winning side this time. So, what's it got to lose?

The Party should be prepared to engage in this and any important referenda and should not, in my opinion, make policy to avoid doing so. I doubt whether this particular policy had too much of a bearing on the Scottish electorate's choice anyway, so to argue that Scots are against having another referendum on this basis (when you are in favour yourself) is questionable; for which reason I am proposing a poll of GG members.

Posted by: ashfield 13th Jun 2015, 07:54am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 12th Jun 2015, 05:28pm) *
Same to you, Ashfield, and anyone else who jumps in.

Is this what you get online for disagreeing with the SNP nowadays?

Oh did you recognise yourself without me offering a name rolleyes.gif

Perhaps you could try dropping the yah, boo, hiss argumentitive style in your posts unsure.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 13th Jun 2015, 08:05am

IRT Kem

What they've got to lose is their credibility, campaign on one thing and do a complete U turn within weeks is best left to other parties.

I never said anything about the people in Scotland being against a EU referendum or not.

Posted by: Betsy2009 13th Jun 2015, 10:28am

Surely when you vote for a party it's because you agree with most of what they stand for. It doesn't mean that you agree with everything they stand for. So there could be many Scots who don't want to stay in the EU but it was only one issue that they didn't agree with when they voted for the SNP. Therefore, all Scots should be entitled to vote in the referendum.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 13th Jun 2015, 11:39am

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 13th Jun 2015, 11:36am) *
all Scots should be entitled to vote in the referendum.

All Scots who are eligible to vote will be entitled to vote in an EU referendum Betsy.

Posted by: Betsy2009 13th Jun 2015, 12:28pm

...but if the RUK vote out and we vote in aren't we back to where we started?

Posted by: Kemedian 13th Jun 2015, 11:01pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 13th Jun 2015, 09:13am) *
IRT Kem

What they've got to lose is their credibility, campaign on one thing and do a complete U turn within weeks is best left to other parties.

I never said anything about the people in Scotland being against a EU referendum or not.

I meant (as you well know) what have they got to lose by engaging in the referendum? Why have the policy in the first place?

By constantly reminding me of the policy's place in the election manifesto, aren't you implying that the Party is giving its voters what they want? If not - it would be awfully presumptuous of you, not to mention daft* - then quit avoiding the above question with a non-answer.

* I can think of only one policy that could safely be said to command the widespread support of SNP voters

Posted by: Betsy2009 14th Jun 2015, 08:39am


"Britain’s farmers often complain bitterly about the bureaucratic nightmare that is the common agricultural policy. But up and down the country it is the possibility that the UK might leave the EU – the source of their hefty subsidies and abundant seasonal labour from eastern Europe – that is keeping many of them awake at night.

“It is terrifying,” says David Long, who farms near Rochester in Kent. “Terrifying in several different ways.”

Long, a leading light in the National Farmers’ Union (NFU), tends 1,500 acres, many of which are given over to strawberries and pears. He uses the latest technology to boost production where he can, but he needs human hands to pick and pack his fruit, and the only place he can find them is in eastern Europe. Now, as the strawberries ripen, he is employing 65 eastern Europeans, mainly from Romania and Bulgaria.

“It is not easy to find British people to do it,” he says. “The eastern Europeans are brilliant workers. If we were not able to employ them because the rules were tightened, or because we left the EU, it is difficult to see how we could operate.”

That is just part of the worry. The other fear that farmers such as Long have is the loss of their subsidies if the UK was no longer part of the CAP.

Gone, suddenly, would be the cheques from Brussels that make up most of their income. In 2012 CAP money accounted for 68% of this country’s total farming income. “Without the CAP, British farmers would be bust,” he says. In a recent submission to the government , the NFU said: “For many farmers CAP support remains incredibly significant"

Please note:
"It is no cheaper to employ eastern Europeans than British workers. It is just that they are there and are willing. They are crucial to the rural economy. His strawberry pickers, like Flori Balace, 26, from Romania, who is working on the farm with her husband and sister and says she can earn £500 a week in peak season, are content in their work. “I enjoy it here,” she says. “The life is good and the money is good. I want to use the money to buy a big house back home.”"

If the costs to the farmer to up then you'll probably be paying £10 for a punnet of stawberries!

Interesting comment from Glasgow lady, Sandra Forrester.


Posted by: john.mcn 14th Jun 2015, 08:41am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 13th Jun 2015, 11:09pm) *
I meant (as you well know) what have they got to lose by engaging in the referendum? Why have the policy in the first place?

Kem i have absolutely no idea what you mean half the time as you flip flop through your posts.
Who said they wont be engaging, they are a pro EU party who will argue that the UK should remeain in the EU.
Why have the policy in the first place?....Wow i feel like i'm talking to an 8 year old about politics, if you truly dont get democratic parties then i feel the tax payers hard work was wasted putting you through your 'free' higher education.

QUOTE
By constantly reminding me of the policy's place in the election manifesto, aren't you implying that the Party is giving its voters what they want? If not - it would be awfully presumptuous of you, not to mention daft* - then quit avoiding the above question with a non-answer.

* I can think of only one policy that could safely be said to command the widespread support of SNP voters


Kem there is no 'implying' at all in my post, you are just reading what you want to see because yet again you really dont have a point other that trying to discredit the SNP.
You dont support the SNP, you are not a member of the SNP but you seem to have this chip on your shoulder when they do what they said they would do. Around 50% of voters backed the SNP at the election(twice as many as it's nearest 'rival') yet here we have a LibDem voter annoyed with how the party voted in Westminster, weren't the LibDems against an In-out referendum, how did they vote in Westminster?

Posted by: Kemedian 14th Jun 2015, 08:39pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 14th Jun 2015, 09:49am) *
Who said they wont be engaging, they are a pro EU party who will argue that the UK should remeain in the EU.

Why have the policy in the first place?....Wow i feel like i'm talking to an 8 year old about politics, if you truly dont get democratic parties then i feel the tax payers hard work was wasted putting you through your 'free' higher education.

... weren't the LibDems against an In-out referendum, how did they vote in Westminster?

They will have to engage, but against their will.

Another complete non-answer.

The SNP stood alone, like rebels without a cause.

...Why won't you debate this point, since, to disagree with the policy yourself, you must have given it some thought?? You have strangely contributed nothing to this debate so far, other than to robotically repeat your manifesto point and to deride me for having such a nerve as to pose the question, which you are refusing to discuss. eyebrow.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 14th Jun 2015, 08:43pm



Discuss what exactly, we are having a referendum because the Tories promised one in their manifesto, the SNP had it in their manifesto they would vote against it but they were outnumbered. What on earth is to discuss?

Posted by: Kemedian 14th Jun 2015, 08:56pm

What's to discuss, you ask???

Just the prospect of the UK leaving the EU!!!

(Oh, and the policy of our MPs to vote against having a referendum. ohmy.gif)

Your only response seems to say that if it's in the manifesto, it's not up for debate.

Posted by: john.mcn 14th Jun 2015, 09:19pm



Then discuss the prospect of the UK leaving. Do you see anyone else bothered that a party whose manifesto stated they were against a EU referendum did what they said they would do ? I'm more concerned that parties who were against it about turned and voted for it, they effectively lied to the people who voted for them.
It's a free forum so feel free to discuss with yourself that a party you're neither a member of or voted for did what they said they would do. We're getting a referendum but you're still not happy because the SNP dont agree with your views.
Will you be on here bitching when they vote against further cuts to public spending or against trident renewal?

Posted by: Kemedian 14th Jun 2015, 10:07pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 14th Jun 2015, 10:27pm) *
Then discuss the prospect of the UK leaving.

'But don't dare discuss the SNP policy!', you say.

All in good time. The SNP are still in the process of opposing the Bill, as it inevitably becomes law.

Heroic act, or futile gesture? A matter of principle, or game of tactics?

I'm not asking why carry out their manifesto pledge, I'm really, really not.

I'm asking: Why rebel? Because... huh.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 14th Jun 2015, 10:15pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 14th Jun 2015, 10:51pm) *
Discuss what exactly, we are having a referendum because the Tories promised one in their manifesto, the SNP had it in their manifesto they would vote against it but they were outnumbered. What on earth is to discuss?


John, You must know by now, as most of us do, that Kemedian has the logic of an over-fried tottie scone.

I have set my preference to ignore his gibberish, but unfortunately I still have to suffer, when you quote him.

Posted by: Kemedian 14th Jun 2015, 10:17pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 14th Jun 2015, 11:23pm) *
John, You must know by now, as most of us do, that Kemedian has the logic of an over-fried tottie scone.

Or perhaps, just a differing point of view. ohmy.gif

What's yours?

Posted by: wombat 14th Jun 2015, 10:42pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 14th Jun 2015, 10:23pm) *
I have set my preference to ignore his gibberish, but unfortunately I still have to suffer, when you quote him.



tongue.gif me no sayin nuttin tongue.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 15th Jun 2015, 07:43pm

QUOTE (Alex Salmond, SNP foreign affairs spokesman @ 1st June, 2015)
It is essential we have a distinctly strong Scottish voice in the EU referendum – and that is exactly what the SNP will bring – a campaign that focuses on a positive agenda about Scotland’s role and place in the EU.

http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2015/jun/salmond-calls-strong-scottish-voice-eu-vote

Then why vote against it, 10 days later?

Can anyone help John explain that pointless policy decision?

Posted by: john.mcn 15th Jun 2015, 09:04pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 14th Jun 2015, 10:23pm) *
John, You must know by now, as most of us do, that Kemedian has the logic of an over-fried tottie scone.

I have set my preference to ignore his gibberish, but unfortunately I still have to suffer, when you quote him.


I'll do my best to try to limit your exposure to his incoherent ramblings by not quoting anymore posts, starting right here in this thread. I think i made my point quite clear so i'll leave him to argue with himself, at least that way he's arguing with someone of similar intellect wink.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 15th Jun 2015, 09:32pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 15th Jun 2015, 11:12pm) *
I'll do my best to try to limit your exposure to his incoherent ramblings by not quoting anymore posts, starting right here in this thread. I think i made my point quite clear so i'll leave him to argue with himself, at least that way he's arguing with someone of similar intellect wink.gif



Much appreciated, John. Now I just have to persuade KTV and it should be sorted. biggrin.gif

Posted by: ktv 16th Jun 2015, 08:12am

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 15th Jun 2015, 10:12pm) *
I think i made my point quite clear so i'll leave him to argue with himself, at least that way he's arguing with someone of similar intellect wink.gif


you'll only leave a vacuum that no knowledge can escape/enter wacko.gif

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 15th Jun 2015, 10:40pm) *
Much appreciated, John. Now I just have to persuade KTV and it should be sorted. biggrin.gif


I have also (nearly) given up talking to a spatial roundabout myself laugh.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 16th Jun 2015, 03:13pm

Is the whole SNP manifesto not up for discussion on here???

It's on the manifesto, so it must be right?

Anyone who thinks otherwise can be insulted and shut out?

Get real, bilbo and ktv. At least John and I can agree to disagree. You guys show far too little respect on here, at times to the detriment of the board, in my opinion.

Posted by: ktv 16th Jun 2015, 03:20pm

respect is earned not granted and your opinion changes from day to day so maybe you should "get real" yes.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 16th Jun 2015, 03:59pm

QUOTE (ktv @ 16th Jun 2015, 04:28pm) *
respect is earned not granted and your opinion changes from day to day so maybe you should "get real" yes.gif

So you say.

Tell me, how could I ever earn your respect? By toeing the Party line, perhaps?

I do not seek anyone's respect, although I do hope to be given it in return for showing it.

If you and Bilbo have nothing to add to the discussion, then why post at all? Just to insult me?

No, you get real.

Posted by: ktv 16th Jun 2015, 05:31pm

I'll post when I want regardless of your ever changing input.
I was mentioned in the thread so I posted...simple.

One post above your bleating about respect then the very next post your saying you don't want it while asking how to get it...... This is exactly why you don't get any because you change your tune constantly.

Maybe you should form an opinion and stick to it for more than 15 mins then people might actually accept what you say as a valid opinion.

But we all know that's how trolls operate.

Posted by: Kemedian 16th Jun 2015, 06:55pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 14th Jun 2015, 10:27pm) *
Do you see anyone else bothered that a party whose manifesto stated they were against a EU referendum did what they said they would do ?

I am not criticising the SNP for acting as per its manifesto, as your attempt to avoid the issue suggests. I am discussing the policy - as it is being tested in Parliament - which recent, as well as past, evidence suggests sits at odds with popular opinion.


https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3547/General-Election-Priorities-in-Scotland-Part-2.aspx#gallery%5bm%5d/0/

QUOTE
The results of the poll suggested that voters would rather have a referendum on whether or not to leave the European Union than another referendum on Scottish independence.

Voters gave the policy statement "hold another referendum on Scottish independence within the next five years" a score of 5.6 out of 10.

The policy statement "hold a referendum to ask people whether they wish to stay in or leave the European Union" was slightly more popular, with a score of 6.1 out of 10.

The idea of stopping immigrants from the rest of the European Union from claiming welfare benefits until they have been in the UK for four years scored 6.8.

The policy of putting a limit on the number of people coming to live in the UK was less popular, with a score of 6.3.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-scotland-32194983

Posted by: Kemedian 16th Jun 2015, 06:59pm

QUOTE (ktv @ 16th Jun 2015, 06:39pm) *
One post above your bleating about respect then the very next post your saying you don't want it while asking how to get it...... This is exactly why you don't get any because you change your tune constantly.

But we all know that's how trolls operate.

It was a rhetorical question.

Back to calling me names again?

Ho hum.

Posted by: Kemedian 19th Jun 2015, 02:47pm

QUOTE (Nicola Sturgeon @ today)
The decisions the European Union takes, the terms of the UK's membership, impacts on our economy, impacts on jobs, impacts on industries like fishing and farming and issues like climate change.

These are all responsibilities of the Scottish government. So you can't simply put it in a box and say it's got nothing to do with the Scottish government. These things matter a lot to people right across this country.

It is absolutely essential that Scotland's voice, and those of the other devolved administrations, is heard to ensure our interests are acknowledged.

That is why I am today calling for a forum to be identified which gives the devolved governments a direct input to the negotiations to ensure that our priorities are listened to and our vital interests are protected.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-33195556


Last week, her Party seemed to think those issues weren't worth a public vote in Scotland and didn't require her attention. huh.gif

Thankfully, it looks now as if the UKIP led movement for British Independence shall be tested in the hearts and minds of the electorate, and hopefully defeated. yes.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 7th Jul 2015, 10:12pm



Could The National campaign for a No?

Posted by: ktv 8th Jul 2015, 07:30am

yes they could if there was ever a referendum on austerity....

but there isn't going to be.

wont bother you though because you knew fine well this would happen to US when you ticked your wee no box

hope your happy now


Posted by: Kemedian 8th Jul 2015, 08:16am

QUOTE (ktv @ 8th Jul 2015, 08:38am) *
yes they could if there was ever a referendum on austerity....

but there isn't going to be.

wont bother you though because you knew fine well this would happen to US when you ticked your wee no box

hope your happy now

Our Ref wasn't an austerity question, yet you and others on here are attributing every government policy you don't like to the No vote.

So, going by your own judgement - and the front pages - the EU Ref will to a large extent be about austerity. yes.gif

Posted by: ktv 8th Jul 2015, 08:26am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 8th Jul 2015, 09:24am) *
Our Ref wasn't an austerity question,


and if you knew anything about politics youd know that theirs wasn't an EU in/out question.

are you now saying you weren't aware of the consequence's of voting no in our indy ref?

the tory gov you and your cronies landed us with will continue austerity whether we are in the EU or not so yet again you either totally misunderstand what is going on or your just trolling again.

so which one is it?

Posted by: Kemedian 8th Jul 2015, 08:53am

QUOTE (ktv @ 8th Jul 2015, 09:34am) *
and if you knew anything about politics youd know that theirs wasn't an EU in/out question.

I know, but ours is.

QUOTE (ktv @ 8th Jul 2015, 09:34am) *
are you now saying you weren't aware of the consequence's of voting no in our indy ref?

the tory gov you and your cronies landed us with will continue austerity whether we are in the EU or not so yet again you either totally misunderstand what is going on or your just trolling again.

so which one is it?

Define trolling again?

Our last Ref was also in/out, but (as anyone can see from your posts) it was most definitely about austerity.

So, UK austerity bad, EU austerity good?

Posted by: ktv 8th Jul 2015, 09:37am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 8th Jul 2015, 10:01am) *
I know, but ours is.

so what has that got to do with Greece voting against austerity?

QUOTE
Our last Ref was also in/out, but (as anyone can see from your posts) it was most definitely about austerity.


so you knew what would happen but you still voted for it anyway.

QUOTE
Define trolling again?


Kemedian:
A Kemedian, or simply kem in Internet slang, is someone who posts irrelevant, contradictory or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

QUOTE
So, UK austerity bad, EU austerity good?


showing your lack of knowledge again with that question....maybe you should try and do some of your "research" into what was happening in Greece and why the people have voted not to leave the EU but against the ECB's austerity demands.

Posted by: Betsy2009 8th Jul 2015, 09:55am

Does anyone actually know what happens to the money we give to the EU? What is it used for (apart from their lavish lifestyle)? If all EU countries are being forced into austerity - what savings have the EU made with our money? Have they cut back on anything?

Posted by: ktv 8th Jul 2015, 10:38am

a lot of the money countries give the eu goes on capital/regeneration projects all over the place. a short walk around Glasgow and youl see the wee "EU funded" signs all over the place.

although a someof the money goes to the central bank who then load it to other banks with Wonga style interest so the banks/govs have to then attempt to pay it back by cutting services for the general populous (austerity) whom the money has never reached in the first place.

bank lends bank money, bank cant afford repayments, gov bails out bank then recoups the money from the general population.

bankers get rich...poor get poorer.

capitalism is great aint it

Posted by: Betsy2009 8th Jul 2015, 10:50am

So if we went back to the Common Market within Europe (albeit with shared armed forces), lived within our means rather than borrowing, didn't pay the EU a fortune, we'd be able to afford our own regeneration projects.

Beats me why we're in in the first place!

OK - hugely over-simplified, I know, but ...

Posted by: Kemedian 8th Jul 2015, 11:07am

QUOTE (ktv @ 8th Jul 2015, 10:45am) *
so what has that got to do with Greece voting against austerity?

I asked: 'Could The National campaign for a No vote?'

You answered: 'It could.'

You then made it abundantly clear that, despite your initial rebuff about our EU Ref not being about austerity, it clearly will be.

Hence your next comment below...

QUOTE (ktv @ 8th Jul 2015, 10:45am) *
So you knew what would happen but you still voted for it anyway.

QUOTE (ktv @ 8th Jul 2015, 10:45am) *
Showing your lack of knowledge again with that question....maybe you should try and do some of your "research" into what was happening in Greece and why the people have voted not to leave the EU but against the ECB's austerity demands.

In short, the Greeks want a different deal from the ECB in order to stay in the EU, you're right; and good luck to them.

If you want to limit the discussion to our own Ref then address my point to you, which is:

UK austerity bad, EU austerity good?

Posted by: ktv 8th Jul 2015, 11:22am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 8th Jul 2015, 12:15pm) *
I asked: 'Could The National campaign for a No vote?'

You answered: 'It could.'


stop trolling and read what is written....it could if it was about that but its not



QUOTE
You then made it abundantly clear that, despite your initial rebuff about our EU Ref not being about austerity, it clearly will be.


our eu in/out ref has NOTHING TO DO WITH AUSTERITY...try and understand austerity is happening to US because the likes of YOU voted to keep US in a system that will ensure it happens by voting NO in OUR INDY REFERENDUM....its obviously too complicated for your trolling lil mind to comprehend



QUOTE
In short, the Greeks want a different deal from the ECB in order to stay in the EU, you're right; and good luck to them.


no...it had nothing to do with their membership thus your showing your ignorance of the situation yet again.

QUOTE
If you want to limit the discussion to our own Ref then address my point to you, which is:

UK austerity bad, EU austerity good?

no. the EU has imposed no austerity measures on us....the tory gov you and your ilk clamped us too are doing that all by themselves.

you constantly show absolutely no understanding of anything your talking about in these threads.

how you've been allowed to troll this board for so long is amazing.

Posted by: Kemedian 8th Jul 2015, 01:35pm

QUOTE (ktv @ 8th Jul 2015, 12:30pm) *
Our eu in/out ref has NOTHING TO DO WITH AUSTERITY...try and understand austerity is happening to US because the likes of YOU voted to keep US in a system that will ensure it happens by voting NO in OUR INDY REFERENDUM.

You're blaming austerity on the result of the last in/out Ref on-the-one-hand, while arguing that it's of no consequence to the next one on-the-other-hand.

Either austerity has nothing to do with both these Ref, or it is relevant to this debate. I say it's relevant. Do you wish to recalibrate your argument? huh.gif

QUOTE (ktv @ 8th Jul 2015, 12:30pm) *
no...it had nothing to do with their membership thus your showing your ignorance of the situation yet again.

It was you who wrote...

QUOTE (ktv @ 8th Jul 2015, 10:45am) *
maybe you should try and do some of your "research" into what was happening in Greece and why the people have voted not to leave the EU but against the ECB's austerity demands.


QUOTE (ktv @ 8th Jul 2015, 10:45am) *
the EU has imposed no austerity measures on us....the tory gov you and your ilk clamped us too are doing that all by themselves.

If our government didn't do it, the EU would (if we stopped paying our bills). yes.gif

QUOTE (ktv @ 8th Jul 2015, 10:45am) *
how you've been allowed to troll this board for so long is amazing.

How you've been allowed to call me that for so long is amazing.

Posted by: ktv 8th Jul 2015, 02:37pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 8th Jul 2015, 02:43pm) *
You're blaming austerity on the result of the last in/out Ref on-the-one-hand, while arguing that it's of no consequence to the next one on-the-other-hand.


no im blaming the likes of you for keeping us tied to a system where austerity was promised....you where happy to go along with the uk govs austerity measures and defended them at every turn.

QUOTE
Either austerity has nothing to do with both these Ref, or it is relevant to this debate. I say it's relevant. Do you wish to recalibrate your argument? huh.gif


both the refs your on about where for totally different reasons...try and get at least the basics of the subject your trolling about




QUOTE
It was you who wrote...


your clearly trolling this thread now.....the greek referendum has nothing to do with them leaving the EU....just let that sink in....ask one of your kids to explain it to you is you must.




QUOTE
If our government didn't do it, the EU would (if we stopped paying our bills). yes.gif


to put it simply enough for you to understand......NO


QUOTE
How you've been allowed to call me that for so long is amazing.

b e c a u s u e..... I t s ...... t r u e !


Posted by: Kemedian 8th Jul 2015, 03:51pm

QUOTE (ktv @ 8th Jul 2015, 03:45pm) *
I'm blaming the likes of you for keeping us tied to a system where austerity was promised.

Consistently blaming austerity on No voters, while also maintaining that it wasn't an issue in the referendum. TWO INCOMPATIBLE STANDPOINTS.

QUOTE (ktv @ 8th Jul 2015, 03:45pm) *
both the refs your on about where for totally different reasons.

Essentially, these are both in/out refs.

QUOTE (ktv @ 8th Jul 2015, 03:45pm) *
the greek referendum has nothing to do with them leaving the EU

I know (but you did write differently a couple of posts ago).

If the UK was struggling to pay its bills and running out of money, and went begging to the ECB for help, its policy is one of austerity. If you don't like that, you can vote to leave the EU completely, just as you voted to leave the UK (for reasons including its austerity policy, obviously). yes.gif

Posted by: ktv 10th Jul 2015, 07:58am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 8th Jul 2015, 04:59pm) *
Consistently blaming austerity on No voters, while also maintaining that it wasn't an issue in the referendum. TWO INCOMPATIBLE STANDPOINTS.


no troll boy...if you had any intelligence whatsoever your realise austerity was happening in the UK no matter what.....im blaming you for keeping us part of that system knowing full well what would happen....so how much is your family going to lose after Wednesdays budget then? bet your proud eh


QUOTE
Essentially, these are both in/out refs.


no troll boy the greek referendum wasn't about in/out of anywhere


QUOTE
I know (but you did write differently a couple of posts ago).


so troll boy where did I write they where voting to leave the EU? and you do know the greek referendum wasnt about them leaving the EU, so your admitting all your posts claiming it was is just you trolling yes.gif

QUOTE
If the UK was struggling to pay its bills and running out of money, and went begging to the ECB for help, its policy is one of austerity. If you don't like that, you can vote to leave the EU completely, just as you voted to leave the UK (for reasons including its austerity policy, obviously). yes.gif

theyre not they didn't they haven't so that's just your usual nonsense.



Posted by: carmella 10th Jul 2015, 08:36am

ktv

You keep referring to Kemedian as a troll - why is this, and do you even know what a troll is - you have me mystified. Over the years we have had many trolls on these forums, for me they are instantly recognizable, and very soon after they begin to troll - I do not see Kemedian as being one of them, I just wondered where you get your information?

I have read your posts over various topics which he has taken part in, and you keep referring to him in one form or other, as a troll.

He is a regular contributor, not a troll.

Posted by: flam 10th Jul 2015, 09:16am

Hear,Hear Carmella if you don,t agree with some people on this great wee site you get dogs abuse, and as you say called a Troll

Posted by: ktv 10th Jul 2015, 09:34am

QUOTE (carmella @ 10th Jul 2015, 09:44am) *
ktv

You keep referring to Kemedian as a troll - why is this, and do you even know what a troll is - you have me mystified. Over the years we have had many trolls on these forums, for me they are instantly recognizable, and very soon after they begin to troll - I do not see Kemedian as being one of them, I just wondered where you get your information?

I have read your posts over various topics which he has taken part in, and you keep referring to him in one form or other, as a troll.

He is a regular contributor, not a troll.


I get my information from his posts. he is trolling these threads whether you understand what a troll is or not, its still happening....its nothing to do with whether I agree with him or not.


QUOTE
a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Usually, there posts are stupid, off-topic, inflaming, illogical, or childish.

A troll is different from a participant in a conversation who disagrees with a post or article and sticks to the topic presenting their opinion in a respectful way.

Forums are made for discussing topics with like-minded people, but every once in a while, a troll will come in and start spewing negative words all over the place. Other forum users will often respond and before you know it, the thread goes completely off topic and becomes nothing but one big pointless argument.


I could seek out further definitions if you need further clarity.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 10th Jul 2015, 02:09pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 8th Jul 2015, 04:59pm) *
If the UK was struggling to pay its bills and running out of money


It has clearly escaped your notice that the UK is struggling to pay its bills and is running out of money.

That's why the national (Dylan won't like me using that word laugh.gif ) debt is currently £1.6trillion and rising. yes.gif

Posted by: carmella 10th Jul 2015, 02:25pm

QUOTE (ktv @ 10th Jul 2015, 10:42am) *
I get my information from his posts. he is trolling these threads whether you understand what a troll is or not, its still happening....its nothing to do with whether I agree with him or not.




I could seek out further definitions if you need further clarity.



Don't need lessons from you, I know perfectly well what a troll is, and I'd wager I knew it before you did.

I repeat, he is not a troll, and I get this from his time on the boards as well as his posts.

You ktv are right across his posts no matter what the subject is, and in almost all of your replies, with the exception of a very few, you refer to him as a troll.

I, on the other hand, have read all of your posts, and disagree with most of them, if not all. As has been previously mentioned, we are all entitled to our opinions, unfortunately only those with opposing views, seem to think they are right - you can take out of that what you will.

Posted by: ktv 10th Jul 2015, 03:16pm

QUOTE (carmella @ 10th Jul 2015, 03:33pm) *
Don't need lessons from you, I know perfectly well what a troll is, and I'd wager I knew it before you did.

I repeat, he is not a troll, and I get this from his time on the boards as well as his posts.

You ktv are right across his posts no matter what the subject is, and in almost all of your replies, with the exception of a very few, you refer to him as a troll.

I, on the other hand, have read all of your posts, and disagree with most of them, if not all. As has been previously mentioned, we are all entitled to our opinions, unfortunately only those with opposing views, seem to think they are right - you can take out of that what you will.


well you did ask so i told you....hope thats ok with you....how much will you wager then?...and how will you prove it?
his opinion has nothing to do with it....do you know his opinion on anything since youve read all his posts?...care to explain it then as it seems to change, uturn and contradict his other posts....ie trolling.

i care not whether you agree with me or not, im stating the blatantly obvious.



Posted by: ktv 10th Jul 2015, 03:17pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 10th Jul 2015, 03:17pm) *
It has clearly escaped your notice that the UK is struggling to pay its bills and is running out of money.

That's why the national (Dylan won't like me using that word laugh.gif ) debt is currently £1.6trillion and rising. yes.gif


edit: the poor are struggling to pay their bills while paying off the debt created by the wealthy thumbup.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 10th Jul 2015, 10:55pm

QUOTE (carmella @ 10th Jul 2015, 09:44am) *
He is a regular contributor, not a troll.

Thank you, Carmella.

I first raised this with the moderator many months ago, who explained that he cannot intervene every time the phrase 'internet troll' is used on the boards, and I accepted his decision. I see ktv's behaviour as an attempt to intimidate me and to distract from my line of argument, which is more often than not (99%) at serious odds with his own. I am not a troll, I stand up for what I believe in, which on this thread usually involves going against the grain, so to speak.

QUOTE (ktv @ 10th Jul 2015, 09:06am) *
If you had any intelligence whatsoever you'd realise austerity was happening in the UK no matter what.

As Jagz points out, the UK debt is no better than Greece's, although the Treasury is able still to pay its international creditors, thankfully. In fact, I read somewhere today that the Government is considering lending to Greece because of the knock-on effect of 'Grexit' to the UK economy.

QUOTE (ktv @ 10th Jul 2015, 09:06am) *
The Greek referendum wasn't about in/out of anywhere.

I referred to both last year's Scottish ref and the UK's planned EU ref.

QUOTE (ktv @ 10th Jul 2015, 09:06am) *
Where did I write they were voting (whether or not) to leave the EU?

Here...
QUOTE (ktv @ 8th Jul 2015, 10:45am) *
Showing your lack of knowledge again with that question....maybe you should try and do some of your "research" into what was happening in Greece and why the people have voted not to leave the EU but against the ECB's austerity demands.


QUOTE (ktv @ 8th Jul 2015, 10:45am) *
They're not, they didn't and they haven't, so that's just your usual nonsense.

But they would. Several other countries have also undergone EU austerity, I believe; including Cyprus, Ireland, Portugal, Spain and Italy. yes.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 11th Jul 2015, 12:35am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 10th Jul 2015, 11:03pm) *
Here...

QUOTE
(ktv @ 8th Jul 2015, 10:45am) *
Showing your lack of knowledge again with that question....maybe you should try and do some of your "research" into what was happening in Greece and why the people have voted not to leave the EU but against the ECB's austerity demands.





I try to stay out of you and KTV's tats but seriously, you highlighting a part of a sentence but omitting the end of it that just makes you look a complete fool and proves KTV right. What did you do, control F and search for a word but not read the sentence? The sentence when read in full shows that KTV was saying that it was not an EU in/out but anti austerity referendum.

Posted by: Betsy2009 11th Jul 2015, 07:13am

Any chance of agreeing to differ and moving on?
Call a truce perhaps?

Posted by: JAGZ1876 11th Jul 2015, 07:19am

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 11th Jul 2015, 08:21am) *
Any chance of agreeing to differ and moving on?
Call a truce perhaps?



I wouldn't hold my breath Betsy, there's more chance of ISIS calling a truce. laugh.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 11th Jul 2015, 10:08am

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 11th Jul 2015, 01:43am) *
I try to stay out of you and KTV's tats but seriously, you highlighting a part of a sentence but omitting the end of it that just makes you look a complete fool and proves KTV right. The sentence when read in full shows that KTV was saying that it was not an EU in/out but anti austerity referendum.

I didn't omit the end of it.

The Greek No vote could be construed as a vote to leave, if it wasn't for the results of separate polls indicating their desire to stay. They may not like the current economic ramifications of remaining part of the Union, however they seem smart enough to know that these are outweighed by the stability currently on offer and the potential longer-term benefits.

"A complete fool", you say? If you're right, then your justification would also make a complete fool out of you, following our earlier exchange on the other thread...

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 6th Jul 2015, 12:43pm) *
Take Greece now, for example. Its people are saying Yes to EU membership, but No to the current offer of financial assistance from the ECB.
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 6th Jul 2015, 01:34pm) *
The Greek referendum was about EU membership ???

Here was me thinking it was about the austerity program offered by the ECB and the IMF.
QUOTE (Kemedian @ 6th Jul 2015, 01:53pm) *
In separate polls the Greeks express a desire to stay in the EU.


All this Greek weather sure is heating up the debate. I think I'd better find some shade under a bridge. cool.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 11th Jul 2015, 10:43am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 11th Jul 2015, 10:16am) *
I didn't omit the end of it.

You omitted it by not highlighting the last part to misconstrue what was actually written in the sentence.
QUOTE
The Greek No vote could be construed as a vote to leave, if it wasn't for the results of separate polls indicating their desire to stay. They may not like the current economic ramifications of remaining part of the Union, however they seem smart enough to know that these are outweighed by the stability currently on offer and the potential longer-term benefits.

Polls are not worth the paper they are written on, the vote was not about staying or leaving the EU just as it wasn't about which ice cream people preferred
QUOTE
"A complete fool", you say? If you're right, then your justification would also make a complete fool out of you, following our earlier exchange on the other thread...


It's best to stop digging when you find yourself in a hole. your quotes just show it's yourself thats the fool. The referendum was not about whether the Greeks wanted to stay or leave the European Union, a poll is not a referendum as they show one thing only, the answers to the the people who took the poll
QUOTE
All this Greek weather sure is heating up the debate. I think I'd better find some shade under a bridge. cool.gif

Try the one over troubled waters, are your argument certainly seems to be in trouble.

Posted by: Kemedian 11th Jul 2015, 11:05am

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 11th Jul 2015, 11:51am) *
You omitted it by not highlighting the last part

Not the same.

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 11th Jul 2015, 11:51am) *
the vote was not about staying or leaving the EU

Did not say it was, as (apparently) neither did ktv.

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 11th Jul 2015, 11:51am) *
your quotes just show it's yourself thats the fool

Not so. If I live under a bridge, then you live in a glass house.

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 11th Jul 2015, 11:51am) *
your argument certainly seems to be in trouble

Not from yours. laugh.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 11th Jul 2015, 11:24am



I'll leave you are your bridge to yourself then, i'll just add that the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem.

Posted by: Kemedian 11th Jul 2015, 11:32am

This debate has moved on to the EU and its economic recovery policy being one of austerity.

I have absolutely no problem taking part, John. It's just that ktv would rather I didn't.

Posted by: Kemedian 11th Jul 2015, 12:23pm

QUOTE (George Kerevan SNP MP @ 9th May, 2015)
Scotland voted SNP as a reaction to being told, after voting No in September, that it should be seen but not heard. This patronising attitude was crystalised in Ed Miliband’s refusal to countenance any working agreement with the SNP, as fellow progressive parties, to lock the Tories out of Downing Street. All Miliband succeeded in doing was boosting SNP support among No-voters, guaranteeing Thursday’s landslide...

The general election was not a mandate for a second referendum – a point reiterated time after time by Nicola Sturgeon, whatever contrary hares are set running by the battered and bruised Westminster establishment. Nevertheless, the SNP’s electoral success is undoubtedly a mandate for going far beyond the hastily conceived ragbag of new powers contained in the Smith Commission documents...

Put another way, May 7 will go down in the constitutional history books as the moment that the UK was launched on an irrevocable trajectory towards federalism – or bust. If the Westminster system fumbles that move to a federal union of equal British nations, Scotland can legitimately claim it has no recourse but to seek a second referendum...

The anti-austerity project that the SNP campaigned for in the May 7 election is inherently popular with both the working class and the professional middle class – everyone has stories about not getting adequate care for aged parents and everyone is going to get old. The welfare state is crumbling because of austerity. Most folk in their heart of hearts realise we get what we pay for.

http://www.thenational.scot/news/george-kerevan-federalism-or-bust-snp-mandate-now-goes-far-beyond-smith-powers.2787


Interesting passages from an article that's right up your street, John, parts of which we have debated on the other thread.

I agree with the first passage. The last passage is relevant to this debate, because it mentions what the SNP refers to as its mandate to reject the UK's current politics of austerity.

My point to ktv, which he does not accept, was:

UK austerity bad, EU austerity good?

Posted by: carmella 11th Jul 2015, 12:46pm

ktv

My question to you was rhetorical, as I did not 'ask' you anything. I have been around Boards such as this for many many years, I know what a 'troll' is, and they are very nasty.

Furthermore, if he was a troll, he would have been gone long before now.

I disagree with you, and I probably always will, I don't think I have seen any merit in your posts to suggest to me, that you have put forward a good argument for anything.

But, you are entitled as we all are to your opinions, which we may agree with sometimes, or we may not agree with - go on and express yourself, we are lucky to be living in a country where this can happen.

As we know, people change their opinions on many subjects over time, and when more thought is applied, I know I have. But that is our perogative.

I cannot prove any more than you can, from what has been written or implied, that Kemedian is a troll. However, I do know that I have dealt with many of them over the years, and I sussed them out very quickly, and very quickly got rid of them once they were identified.

Here endeth the discussion from my perspective.

Posted by: ktv 13th Jul 2015, 07:41am

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 11th Jul 2015, 01:43am) *
I try to stay out of you and KTV's tats but seriously, you highlighting a part of a sentence but omitting the end of it that just makes you look a complete fool and proves KTV right. What did you do, control F and search for a word but not read the sentence? The sentence when read in full shows that KTV was saying that it was not an EU in/out but anti austerity referendum.


its the fine art of.....dum dum dummmmmmm TROLLING

Posted by: Kemedian 13th Jul 2015, 08:21am

QUOTE (ktv @ 13th Jul 2015, 08:49am) *
its the fine art of.....dum dum dummmmmmm TROLLING

I don't see anyone coming to YOUR defense over this issue that you have with my views, ktv.

YOU are an online bully. You call me a troll in nearly every reply, but you won't silence me. That's the role of the moderator, which you seem to think you are.

I draw your attention to the following and ask for the respect that every member deserves:

QUOTE
GG Board: Board Rules

General Posting Rules and Advice

Here's some general points of advice to consider when posting on all boards:

  • Do not make insulting or inflammatory statements to other members of the GG boards. Be respectful of others ideas.

Posted by: ktv 13th Jul 2015, 08:28am

makes no difference to me that some one is defending a troll mate.

im not trying to silence you

im not trying to bully you

im also not insulting you or using inflammatory statements.

saying your a troll is a factual statement (ive repeatedly gave you the definition you asked for)...

the victim card wont work as long as you keep trolling.

now about that topic of the uk in/out referendum......

Posted by: Kemedian 13th Jul 2015, 08:31am

Of course you're being inflammatory, ktv.

If your allegation is true, you could have me arrested!

I ceased taking offense from your name calling a long time ago.

You are an online bully, whose behaviour is in breach of Board Rules.

I, however, shall continue posting, whether you like it or not.

Posted by: ktv 13th Jul 2015, 09:34am

arrested?

GG's inbox must be bursting now eh


back to the topic

Posted by: serabash 13th Jul 2015, 09:42am

QUOTE (ktv @ 13th Jul 2015, 09:36am) *
makes no difference to me that some one is defending a troll mate.

im not trying to silence you

im not trying to bully you

im also not insulting you or using inflammatory statements.

saying your a troll is a factual statement (ive repeatedly gave you the definition you asked for)...

the victim card wont work as long as you keep trolling.

now about that topic of the uk in/out referendum......


yes.gif thumbup.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 14th Jul 2015, 10:28am

QUOTE (ktv @ 13th Jul 2015, 10:42am) *
Arrested?

Don't be so naive.

'Trolling' on social media can be a criminal offence, as can 'cyber bullying'. There have been numerous convictions including high profile cases in Scotland. So, perhaps you should stop spoiling this thread or put your claim to the test.

QUOTE
  • Cyber bullying: bullying conducted using the social media or other electronic means.
  • Revenge pron: usually following the breakup of a couple, the electronic publication or distribution of sexually explicit material (principally images) of one or both of the couple, the material having originally been provided consensually for private use.
  • Trolling: intentional disruption of an online forum, by causing offence or starting an argument.
  • Virtual mobbing: whereby a number of individuals use social media or messaging to make comments to or about another individual, usually because they are opposed to that person's opinions.
  • http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201415/ldselect/ldcomuni/37/3704.htm


QUOTE
Approach to be taken by Prosecutors

Prosecutors should first make an initial assessment of the content of the communication and the conduct in question so as to distinguish between:
  1. Communications which specifically target an individual or group of individuals in particular communications which are considered to be hate crime, domestic abuse, or stalking.
  2. Communications which may constitute threats of violence to the person, incite public disorder or constitute threats to damage property.
  3. Communications which may amount to a breach of a court order or contravene legislation making it a criminal offence to release or publish information relating to proceedings.
  4. Communications which do not fall into categories 1,2 or 3 above but are nonetheless considered to be grossly offensive, indecent or obscene or involve the communication of false information about an individual or group of individuals which results in adverse consequences for that individual or group of individuals.
Category 4 Offences

Prosecutors should only consider action in this category of cases where they are satisfied there is sufficient evidence that the communication goes beyond being:
  • Offensive, shocking or disturbing
  • Satirical, iconoclastic or rude
  • The expression of unpopular or unfashionable opinion even if distasteful to some or painful to those subjected to it
  • An exchange of communication that forms part of a democratic debate
  • http://www.copfs.gov.uk/images/Documents/Prosecution_Policy_Guidance/Book_of_Regulations/Final%20version%2026%2011%2014.pdf


A media report from the time of publication:
http://scotland.stv.tv/302163-social-media-prosecution-guidelines-set-out-by-lord-advocate/

QUOTE (Scotlands top prosecutor)
As prosecutors we will continue to do all in our power to bring those who commit these crimes to justice, and I would encourage anyone who thinks they have been victim of such a crime to report it to the police.

Posted by: serabash 14th Jul 2015, 10:45am

by rashelle reid.

I was always told.....

I was always told I’m British, since I was a little girl
I was always told of the “Greatness” of this little isle.
I was always told I’m British, it was the only box to tick
I was always told I’m British, they must really think I’m thick!
I was always told I’m British, but I’ve always been a Scot
I was always told I’m British but I’ve always known I’m not.
I was always told I’m British as they sent the troops to war
I was always told I’m British but I had the lion’s roar.
I was always told I’m British as they raised the Union Jack
I was always told I’m British as they plotted behind my back
I was always told I’m British for 40 years that’s been true.
I was always told I’m British, we’ll force our flag on you.
I was always told I’m British, my licence has to bear the flag
I was always told I’m British the whole idea makes me gag.
I was always told I’m British and the bloodshed bore my name
I was always told I’m British and I’ve always held the shame
I was always told I’m British when even as a child I knew
I was always told I’m British but I knew it wasn’t true.
I was always told I’m British but Scotland was my home
I was always told I’m British it made me feel alone.
I was always told I’m British but it never will be true
I was always told I’m British but my flag is saltire blue.
I was always told I’m British and that we’re going to war.
I was always told I’m British and it made my heart sore.
I was always told I’m British but it will never be the case
I was always told I’m British as if it’s a master race.
I was always told I’m British but I’ll never buy the lie
I was always told I’m British, at times it made me cry.
I have always known I’m Scottish born to this land I call home
I have always known I’m Scottish as in these lands I roamed
I have always known I’m Scottish because home is where you’re born
I have always known I’m Scottish as the saltire I adorned.
I have always known I’m Scottish as my history lay in tatters
I have always known I’m Scottish and how our dreams were shattered.
I have always known I’m Scottish and no matter what you do
I’ll always know I’m Scottish because in my heart it’s true.

Posted by: ktv 14th Jul 2015, 10:51am

Kem your post proves my point entirely.

your not a good enough troll to fit into any of those definitions though.

youl fall into the mildly annoying, uturning, contradictory kind which you already have the definitions for.

also having clicked on your link further proves my point when you notice you've edited what is said in the report you quote to suit your "im innocent" agenda.

QUOTE
category 4 the communication does not
constitute a credible threat of violence or of damage to property or intention
to incite public disorder or form part of a course of conduct targeted against
a particular individual or group of individuals but nonetheless is considered
to be threatening in some way or to be grossly offensive, indecent or
obscene or involve the communication of false information about an
individual or group of individuals which results in adverse
consequences for that individual or group of individuals .


which does not apply to your type of trolling

so evidence enough it would seem (to most) so perhaps you can get on with the actual topic of the EU ref now then.

Posted by: Kemedian 14th Jul 2015, 10:54am

We're all Scottish, Serabash, and some of us like being other things too. smile.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 14th Jul 2015, 10:56am

QUOTE (ktv @ 14th Jul 2015, 11:59am) *
Kem your post proves my point entirely.

How pathetic.

Since you won't report me, this makes you nothing more than a petty coward.

Posted by: Betsy2009 14th Jul 2015, 11:04am

Oh for goodness sake - enough already!
This nit-picking of the minutiae is unnecessary and unpleasant and, no doubt, off-putting for others who may want to join a conversation but are worried that instead of taking the gist of what's being said it will just be a point scoring exercise.

Posted by: ktv 14th Jul 2015, 11:05am

now now trolly...your now demanding I call the police on you?

you clearly (deliberately) misunderstand what kind of troll you are.

the same as you deliberately misunderstand what the greek referendum was for, what the uk eu in/out referendum is for and most likely what the Scottish referendum was for...all deliberate so you could troll these boards.

also its not in my nature to grass of the weak (of mind) and feeble anyway, how would I feel if you where dodging soap in a young offenders while your family lived in poverty eh.

so about this eu in out thing?

you in?

you out?

let me guess...your in/out!


Posted by: Kemedian 14th Jul 2015, 11:40am

QUOTE (ktv @ 14th Jul 2015, 11:59am) *
So, perhaps you can get on with the actual topic of the EU ref now then?

Gladly, since it was I who started and you who interrupted it. rolleyes.gif



Predictably, this paper leads with a negative portrayal of the EU's third huge bailout of Greece's stricken economy.

QUOTE (Alex Salmond, SNP Foreign Affairs spokesman @ 1st June, 2015)
It is essential we have a distinctly strong Scottish voice in the EU referendum – and that is exactly what the SNP will bring – a campaign that focuses on a positive agenda about Scotland’s role and place in the EU.

We need a campaign that concentrates on the real issues that we have to face. An EU wide strategy to deal with the tragedy unfolding every day in the Mediterranean: a campaign that ensures that we take multi-national action on climate change and that promotes a living wage to give dignity to workers . These are some of the issues – the debate must not be dragged down to the Tory and Ukip Euro- sceptic view which dominates the Westminster parties thinking.
http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2015/jun/salmond-calls-strong-scottish-voice-eu-vote

Isn't there another issue dominating European Politics right now, Mr Salmond? Specifically, the EU strategy to deal with Greece's debt problem? The kind of policy that your party campaigns fiercely against here in the UK?

Can the Scottish Government positively spin the Greek tragedy on the front of today's National (i.e. the rescue package supported by the UK and other major European Governments) or is the SNP going to be consistent in its opposition to austerity?

Posted by: ktv 14th Jul 2015, 12:43pm

im sure if you asked salmond or the scots gov theyd tell you

whats the uk gov/labour/libdems approach to the situation?

QUOTE
Predictably, this paper leads with a negative portrayal of the EU's third huge bailout of Greece's stricken economy.

do you think there is any positive spin that could be added?

do you now think we should leave the eu to prevent them sticking more austerity measures on us? (as you've claimed they might).

I personally think we should remain part of the eu(bringing it back to the actual topic) but remain outside of its economic control.

Posted by: Betsy2009 14th Jul 2015, 01:02pm

If we're part of the EU then we're part of their financial control:

"Britain could face a £1bn exposure to Greece's emergency bailout in the coming weeks, it has emerged.


European bureaucrats are considering the use of a controversial emergency fund, entailing the use of UK funds, to support Greece's economy over the coming weeks."


but perhaps there's hope?

"A Treasury source said: "The idea that British taxpayers' money is going to be on the line in this latest deal is a non-starter.""

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/britain-may-face-%c2%a31bn-bill-for-greek-rescue/ar-AAcWG0B?ocid=iehp

Posted by: ktv 14th Jul 2015, 01:17pm

aaaarrrghhhh I just wrote a big reply then my net cut out haha

ye betsy I meant like monetary union.

the greeks had to borrow billions from the ecb to join the euro then couldn't afford the wonga style repayments leading them to borrow and more. now theyl have to flog off their assets to the banks so they can pay the banks back with the money the banks give them for stripping their assets.

normal economic policy for the uk though as they've sold everything they possibly could just so they could give large tax breaks/subs to major companies (usually the ones that bought the assets)....makes sense eh

Posted by: Guest 14th Jul 2015, 01:54pm

This United Kingdom is my home and I'll always be British, but I so dearly wish that Scotland had embraced the courage voted YES.

Posted by: Kemedian 14th Jul 2015, 02:39pm

QUOTE (ktv @ 14th Jul 2015, 01:51pm) *
I personally think we should remain part of the eu (bringing it back to the actual topic) but remain outside of its economic control.

Well, for once we'll at least be on the same side of a debate (uncomfortable ohmy.gif).

I look forward to the development of your argument in favour of the Union. wink.gif

The topic will be diverse. The SNP seems intent on devising its own Yes Campaign (despite initially opposing the referendum) and it will be interesting to see how/if that diverges from the campaigns of the other pro-European groups, following its less-than-convincing beginnings.

Posted by: serabash 14th Jul 2015, 02:52pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 14th Jul 2015, 12:02pm) *
We're all Scottish, Serabash, and some of us like being other things too. smile.gif

oh your other things awe right . laugh.gif

Posted by: ktv 15th Jul 2015, 08:17am

should the left go for a no vote?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/14/left-reject-eu-greece-eurosceptic

Posted by: Kemedian 23rd Jul 2015, 07:29pm

The Union is forcing through austerity because it's largely paralysed with debt and with each law it passes its grip tightens - and the Scottish Government wants to keep us anchored to this sinking ship?

Why not, I ask? thumbup.gif http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/6923259/2-22072015-AP-EN.pdf/bf173a0e-0eba-4ab9-878c-6db8d1f6452b


All aboard !

Posted by: wombat 23rd Jul 2015, 08:58pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 23rd Jul 2015, 07:37pm) *
The Union is forcing through austerity because it's largely paralysed with debt and with each law it passes its grip tightens - and the Scottish Government wants to keep us anchored to this sinking ship?

Why not, I ask? thumbup.gif http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/6923259/2-22072015-AP-EN.pdf/bf173a0e-0eba-4ab9-878c-6db8d1f6452b


All aboard !



biggrin.gif clicked on the link and surprise surpse merr bliddy graphs clap.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 24th Jul 2015, 08:05am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 23rd Jul 2015, 08:37pm) *
The Union is forcing through austerity because it's largely paralysed with debt and with each law it passes its grip tightens - and the Scottish Government wants to keep us anchored to this sinking ship?

Why not, I ask? thumbup.gif


Well at least in this case you're consistent, you were arguing for Scotland to be "anchored to this sinking ship" this time last year. yes.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 24th Jul 2015, 05:50pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 24th Jul 2015, 09:13am) *
Well at least in this case you're consistent, you were arguing for Scotland to be "anchored to this sinking ship" this time last year. yes.gif

How consistent is your argument going to be?

Which way are you intending to vote?

Posted by: ashfield 24th Jul 2015, 06:15pm

QUOTE (wombat @ 23rd Jul 2015, 10:06pm) *
biggrin.gif clicked on the link and surprise surpse merr bliddy graphs clap.gif


There was a young man who liked a graph
Unfortunately it turned everybody aff
Are the posts metaphysical
Well we all look quizzical
And think he must be havin' a laff eyebrow.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 24th Jul 2015, 07:35pm

QUOTE (ashfield @ 24th Jul 2015, 07:23pm) *
There was a young man who liked a graph
Unfortunately it turned everybody aff
Are the posts metaphysical
Well we all look quizzical
And think he must be havin' a laff eyebrow.gif


Superb Ash. laugh.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 24th Jul 2015, 07:37pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 24th Jul 2015, 06:58pm) *
How consistent is your argument going to be?


As consistent as it gets, i will of course be voting YES yet again. laugh.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 24th Jul 2015, 08:05pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 24th Jul 2015, 08:45pm) *
As consistent as it gets, i will of course be voting YES yet again. laugh.gif

I'll repeat the question...

How consistent is your ARGUMENT (not your vote) going to be ?

(Answer: Not very.)

Posted by: Kemedian 24th Jul 2015, 09:06pm

For Ash...

There was an old man who liked a joke.
In debates online he'd often choke.
Very much scatological,
Hard at work in his cubicle
He wrote crap till the internet broke!

wink.gif

Posted by: ashfield 25th Jul 2015, 07:35am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 24th Jul 2015, 10:14pm) *
For Ash...

There was an old man who liked a joke.
In debates online he'd often choke.
Very much scatological,
Hard at work in his cubicle
He wrote crap till the internet broke!

wink.gif


I have to bow to your expertise this time, you are clearly a master of the brown stuff as proven time and time again in your posts thumbup.gif

Posted by: serabash 25th Jul 2015, 10:52am

laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: Talisman 26th Jul 2015, 09:59pm

QUOTE (Guest @ 14th Jul 2015, 02:02pm) *
This United Kingdom is my home and I'll always be British, but I so dearly wish that Scotland had embraced the courage voted YES.

I am Scottish by birth for generations going back centuries. I was made "British" by an act of the Westminster parliament, an act in which I and no other Scot ever had a say in.

Posted by: wombat 26th Jul 2015, 10:19pm

QUOTE (Talisman @ 26th Jul 2015, 10:07pm) *
I am Scottish by birth for generations going back centuries. I was made "British" by an act of the Westminster parliament, an act in which I and no other Scot ever had a say in.

sez it all really rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 27th Jul 2015, 06:38pm

QUOTE (Talisman @ 26th Jul 2015, 11:07pm) *
I am Scottish by birth for generations going back centuries. I was made "British" by an act of the Westminster parliament, an act in which I and no other Scot ever had a say in.

Erm, I'm certain there's another thread dedicated to that topic.

Posted by: ktv 28th Jul 2015, 05:22pm

QUOTE (Talisman @ 26th Jul 2015, 11:07pm) *
I am Scottish by birth for generations going back centuries. I was made "British" by an act of the Westminster parliament, an act in which I and no other Scot ever had a say in.



was probably before your time right enough and id suspect a few of kems ancestors would have agreed to it anyway wink.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 28th Jul 2015, 05:32pm

QUOTE (ktv @ 28th Jul 2015, 06:30pm) *
id suspect a few of kems ancestors would have agreed to it anyway

Historical records that I have seen possibly suggest that you couldn't be more wrong. tongue.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 28th Jul 2015, 06:56pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 28th Jul 2015, 06:40pm) *
Historical records that I have seen possibly suggest that you couldn't be more wrong. tongue.gif


They'll be turning in their graves then, well done Kem. laugh.gif

Posted by: ktv 3rd Aug 2015, 01:26pm

laugh.gif laugh.gif

do historical records show who was in favour of joining England?

I think not

Posted by: JAGZ1876 3rd Aug 2015, 03:11pm

QUOTE (ktv @ 3rd Aug 2015, 02:34pm) *
laugh.gif laugh.gif

do historical records show who was in favour of joining England?

I think not


Unless kem has a graph that proves otherwise, after all he has graphs for everything else. laugh.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 3rd Aug 2015, 11:04pm


With the http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33750336 governments forming a united front in an attempt to tackle the problems at the border related to the international migrant crisis, the http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Focus-on-seafood-exports-1ba5.aspx government responding by seeking to ensure the continuation of seafood exports and the http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33751619 government complaining that the migrants should be our priority...

How do people think this Summer's big news story will impact the national debate around the forthcoming EU referendum?

I doubt if the UKIP could have dreamed-up a better reason to leave the Union and become independent, and if anything positive is to be made of it then the Yes campaigners will have to work ten times harder.

Bad news all round, I say. The solution (if there is one) to the problem is maybe for another debate. But, given that it's happening, that it's affecting UK business, that no government seems ready to respond, that migrants are no doubt suffering and that presently at least one other EU member state is critical of how the situation at Calais is developing, I reckon it shall rival the Greek crisis as a hot topic of conversation.

Posted by: ktv 4th Aug 2015, 10:27am

sign_offtopic.gif

theres a thread dedicated to that topic elsewhere

Posted by: wombat 4th Aug 2015, 10:14pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 24th Jul 2015, 10:14pm) *
For Ash...

There was an old man who liked a joke.
In debates online he'd often choke.
Very much scatological,
Hard at work in his cubicle
He wrote crap till the internet broke!

wink.gif


for YOO tongue.gif yes.gif


 

Posted by: Kemedian 5th Aug 2015, 11:00am

QUOTE (ktv @ 4th Aug 2015, 11:35am) *
There's a thread dedicated to that topic elsewhere.


It is relevant to this one.


QUOTE
European Economic Area (EEA) nationals and their dependants and those with refugee status abroad and their dependants are among the 5 classes of person prescribed by Schedule 3 to the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 as ineligible for various state benefits including support or assistance under a provision of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999. This means that they may not be provided with asylum support under Sections 4, 95 or 98 of the 1999 Act except to the extent necessary to prevent a breach of a person’s rights under the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) or under the Community Treaties. This generally means caseworkers must consider whether an EEA nationals rights under Article 3 and/or 8 of the ECHR will be breached by the refusal of support.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/422990/Asylum_Support_Policy_Bulletin_Instructions_Public_v6.pdf

QUOTE
There were 25,020 asylum applications (main applicants) in the year ending March 2015, an increase of 5% compared with the previous year (23,803). The number of applications remains low relative to the peak number of applications in 2002 (84,132).

In the year ending March 2015, the largest number of asylum applications (main applicants) came from nationals of Eritrea (3,552), followed by Pakistan (2,421) and Syria (2,222). Grant rates for asylum, humanitarian protection, discretionary leave or other grants of stay vary between nationalities. For example, 85% of the total initial decisions made for nationals of Eritrea and Syria were grants, compared with 22% for Pakistani nationals.

The UK had the fifth highest number (31,400) of asylum applications within the EU in 2014. In 2014, four EU countries received more asylum applicants than the UK – Germany (166,800), Sweden (81,300), France (63,100) and Italy (56,300).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/immigration-statistics-january-to-march-2015/immigration-statistics-january-to-march-2015

Posted by: ktv 5th Aug 2015, 12:36pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 5th Aug 2015, 12:08pm) *
It is relevant to this one.


its only relevant when you want it to be yes.gif

just as you think throwing anything into a topic is relevant wacko.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 5th Aug 2015, 12:42pm

QUOTE (ktv @ 5th Aug 2015, 01:44pm) *
You think throwing anything into a topic is relevant.

I happen to think that this Summer's two big news stories from Athens and Calais will be of relevance to this debate.

Do you take the Swedish point of view and are you in favour, as a Yes voter, of the status quo, whereby the increasing number of asylum seekers should not be further deterred from entering the UK?

Or, do you support the joint attempt by the UK and French Govs to tackle the problem?

Or, do you veer even more either way, i.e. by completely opening or closing the border?

Posted by: ktv 5th Aug 2015, 01:34pm


Posted by: Kemedian 5th Aug 2015, 03:30pm

A No vote?

Ok, well that would remove our need to comply with the ECHR, then other European governments with a more liberal approach such as Sweden (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/swedish-minister-gives-strongest-case-yet-on-why-eu-should-stop-turning-away-asylum-seekers-10366910.html) would need to mind their own business a little more.


http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/About-the-Migration-Agency/Facts-and-statistics-/Statistics.html

Posted by: ktv 5th Aug 2015, 03:33pm

sign_offtopic.gif

still nothing to do with the eu referendum

Posted by: Kemedian 5th Aug 2015, 03:39pm

QUOTE (ktv @ 5th Aug 2015, 04:41pm) *
Nothing to do with the eu referendum.

As a nation totally independent of European Politics, the UK would be free from its current obligation to comply with its rules (e.g. taking our share of non-EU refugees).

Posted by: john.mcn 5th Aug 2015, 04:24pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 5th Aug 2015, 03:38pm) *
A No vote?

Ok, well that would remove our need to comply with the ECHR, then other European governments with a more liberal approach such as Sweden


The ECHR is a different body to the EU

Posted by: Kemedian 5th Aug 2015, 05:46pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 5th Aug 2015, 05:32pm) *
The ECHR is a different body to the EU.

QUOTE ( post #131 )
... caseworkers must consider whether an EEA nationals* rights under Article 3 and/or 8 of the ECHR will be breached by the refusal of support...


* Including asylum seekers and failed asylum seekers who... have refugee status in an EEA State. The EEA - as you know - is made up of the member states of the EU together with Lichtenstein, Norway and Iceland.

Posted by: john.mcn 5th Aug 2015, 05:56pm



What are you on about, the European court of human rights has nothing to do with whether the UK is member of the EU or EEA. There are 47 members/signatories to it and only 28 members of the EU..

Posted by: Kemedian 6th Aug 2015, 10:51am

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 5th Aug 2015, 07:04pm) *
What are you on about, the European court of human rights has nothing to do with whether the UK is member of the EU or EEA. There are 47 members/signatories to it and only 28 members of the EU.

The trouble at the Calais border being bad news for the Yes vote, is what I'm on about.

To those engaging in the debate, these matters become apparent, however anyone listening to the worst factions within the No campaign (i.e. hardline UKIP) and voting accordingly could be fooled into thinking that success at the referendum equates to Party policy, which states:

QUOTE
UKIP would not seek to remain in the European Free Trade Area (EFTA) or European Economic Area (EEA) while those treaties maintain a principle of free movement of labour, which prevents the UK managing its own borders.

As you and I have been discussing elsewhere, to the well informed the independence of referenda and parliamentary elections should be evident - the results stand alone.

Unlike you, I very much hope that Yes means yes and Scotland's immediate future in the Union is kept safe. smile.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 6th Aug 2015, 05:20pm


UKIP border policy is about the freedom of movement between member states, it has nothing to do with the problems at Calais, as we are not in Schengen we still have border controls with other EU states.

Posted by: Kemedian 6th Aug 2015, 10:51pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 6th Aug 2015, 06:28pm) *
UKIP border policy is about the freedom of movement between member states, it has nothing to do with the problems at Calais, as we are not in Schengen we still have border controls with other EU states.

If the UK did leave the EEA, which I concede won't be on the ballot, then the UKIP - if the voting system let it - could block the Channel and in so doing seal the fate of the UK economy.

It's the perception of the situation at the border and its economic impact that I am suggesting could artificially boost support for NO, amongst voters who don't bother to find out the facts, unless the two governments can somehow regain control and give the Yes campaign an opportunity to point out the light at the end of the Tunnel (as opposed to the infrared silhouette at the back of the lorry).

Posted by: Kemedian 10th Aug 2015, 09:00am

I hate to say it, but...

http://metro.co.uk/2015/08/09/foreign-secretary-causes-outrage-after-suggesting-african-migrants-threaten-uks-standard-of-living-5334736/



http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/aug/09/african-migrants-threaten-eu-standard-living-philip-hammond

Posted by: ktv 10th Aug 2015, 01:13pm

kem has the penny dropped about this "all the parties will be voting yes" to the pointless (if so) referendum yet?

your recent "evidence" clearly shows different.

Posted by: Kemedian 10th Aug 2015, 06:10pm

Evidence that I posted previously suggests that your's does not reflect the prominent opinion among the general public on this issue, ktv.

Plus, if enough people who do share your opinion don't bother to go out and vote or even engage in the debate, then obviously the contest will be artificially closer than expected.

This Indy Ref will be no less historic than Scotland's previous one. However, a significant difference - it is to be hoped - shall be that both the current Scottish and UK Governments will accept the (probable) Yes result, then move on.

I'm glad you share my optimism if not my enthusiasm, yet there are some proponents of Yes in Scotland (of a particular Political persuasion) who seem to think that the voting preference of the rest of the UK might be less than certain. smile.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 10th Aug 2015, 07:26pm



You underestimate the amount of people pee'd off with the EU.

Posted by: ktv 11th Aug 2015, 07:43am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 10th Aug 2015, 07:18pm) *
Evidence that I posted previously suggests that your's does not reflect the prominent opinion among the general public on this issue, ktv.

Plus, if enough people who do share your opinion don't bother to go out and vote or even engage in the debate, then obviously the contest will be artificially closer than expected.

This Indy Ref will be no less historic than Scotland's previous one. However, a significant difference - it is to be hoped - shall be that both the current Scottish and UK Governments will accept the (probable) Yes result, then move on.

I'm glad you share my optimism if not my enthusiasm, yet there are some proponents of Yes in Scotland (of a particular Political persuasion) who seem to think that the voting preference of the rest of the UK might be less than certain. smile.gif


the only opinion I have expressed is that ALL the (major)parties do not support staying in the EU as you suggest.

the amount of anti EU rhetoric they have been spouting and you have even been quoting, yet im not surprised you still think it will be a unanimous yes from all involved as you believe every single thing the UK gov says.

now your saying the pro EU side will only win if people against cant be bothered to vote....yip good luck with that

Posted by: Kemedian 11th Aug 2015, 11:43am

QUOTE (ktv @ 10th Aug 2015, 02:21pm) *
kem has the penny dropped about this "all the Parties will be voting yes" to the pointless (if so) referendum yet?

I'm sorry, I tried my best to interpret your above line, honestly I did.

I thought perhaps you had tried to write that the referendum is pointless if all the Parties will be voting Yes, suggesting perhaps a win for Yes in your opinion.

Now you appear to have written that all the Parties will be voting No, in your opinion:

QUOTE (ktv @ 11th Aug 2015, 08:51am) *
The only opinion I have expressed is that ALL the (major) parties do not support staying in the EU...

Thanks for clearing that up for me. huh.gif

QUOTE (ktv @ 11th Aug 2015, 08:51am) *
Now your saying the pro EU side will only win if people against cant be bothered to vote.

In fact, I said the exact opposite. If enough people who share the view that the vote is "pointless" don't get involved or even turn out, then all those against (who will surely turn out and vote) may make the contest closer than expected. A point that John took issue with. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: ktv 11th Aug 2015, 01:40pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 11th Aug 2015, 12:51pm) *
I'm sorry, I tried my best to interpret your above line, honestly I did.

I thought perhaps you had tried to write that the referendum is pointless if all the Parties will be voting Yes, suggesting perhaps a win for Yes in your opinion.

Now you appear to have written that all the Parties will be voting No, in your opinion:


Thanks for clearing that up for me. huh.gif


In fact, I said the exact opposite. If enough people who share the view that the vote is "pointless" don't get involved or even turn out, then all those against (who will surely turn out and vote) may make the contest closer than expected. A point that John took issue with. rolleyes.gif


let me explain it to you

you've claimed ALL the major parties are supporting the YES vote while constantly producing evidence that they want out....got that?.....your own posts are evidence even for you ....all anti EU rhetoric from the major uk parties.

everyone and their dog (except you) seen this coming that's why I said (ages ago) that its pointless holding a referendum if every party wants the same out come......they clearly didn't all want the same outcome then and don't now....your own posts show this.

at no time did I say all the parties would be voting no
at no time did I say the yes/no voting public thought it was pointless either.
at no time have I said id be voting yes or no.

what im saying is that your deluded if you think all the major parties want the same result as you claim...you've defeated your own argument (yet again) with your own posts.

Posted by: ktv 11th Aug 2015, 01:44pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 10th Aug 2015, 08:34pm) *
You underestimate the amount of people pee'd off with the EU.


and all the anti eu rhetoric in the right wing press, coming from the tory party is stirring that up yet some people still believe they want a yes vote.


the two faced tories are saying they want a yes vote while manipulating the media into getting a no vote......even the blind can see that.


Posted by: john.mcn 11th Aug 2015, 08:04pm

What the political parties say or support does not really mean anything to the man/woman on the street. When it comes to the EU and where people think it's heading ( a superstate) every conversation i hear around it results in people wanting out.

Posted by: Betsy2009 11th Aug 2015, 08:15pm

Many business people seem to want to stay in the EU because of the trading opportunities. The Tories listen to business, not the man in the street. If they are going to put it to the vote then they must know that they've already one.

Posted by: Kemedian 11th Aug 2015, 09:21pm

QUOTE (ktv @ 11th Aug 2015, 02:48pm) *
At no time have I said id be voting yes or no.

QUOTE (ktv @ 14th Jul 2015, 01:51pm) *
I personally think we should remain part of the eu but remain outside of its economic control.

Reads like the mind of a Yes voter to me?

I am a committed Yes voter. I don't see how you can say I have defeated my own argument, when all I'm doing is trying to open up the debate.

This huge debate and the historic vote at the end of it poses some hard questions for us all, and being a true democrat I welcome it. You may well argue that it's a load of nonsense, nonetheless I would say that your participation signifies otherwise. There are many voices to be heard and this referendum, like any other, will cause division wherever it is debated.

Hell. You and I are supposedly on the same side! biggrin.gif

Posted by: ktv 11th Aug 2015, 10:09pm

QUOTE
I personally think we should remain part of the eu but remain outside of its economic control.



the eu is good for some things but not for others. being part of the wider community is all very well and some of their laws are essential for our daily lives, min wage, WTD, H&S etc.(which your mates in the tory party will probably scrap if we leave or change if we stay due to them getting "concessions") but if their insisting on total privatisation and things like TTIP to be a member of that community then its just tory policy on a grander scale so my vote goes to "it doesn't really matter"
ie its p o I n t l e s s deflectionary politics

your argument that all the parties want a yes vote is what your own posts are undermining as their rhetoric clearly shows otherwise.

I am not and never have been a democrat

Posted by: Tally Rand 18th Aug 2015, 10:15pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 6th Aug 2015, 10:59pm) *
If the UK did leave the EEA, which I concede won't be on the ballot, then the UKIP - if the voting system let it - could block the Channel and in so doing seal the fate of the UK economy.

It's the perception of the situation at the border and its economic impact that I am suggesting could artificially boost support for NO, amongst voters who don't bother to find out the facts, unless the two governments can somehow regain control and give the Yes campaign an opportunity to point out the light at the end of the Tunnel (as opposed to the infrared silhouette at the back of the lorry).

It is my certain conclusion that you have been studying the art of obfuscation with an intensity only encountered by those with a notion to enter the hallowed halls of Britannia's Westminster.

Posted by: Kemedian 19th Aug 2015, 01:33pm

What's clear to many folk, Tally Rand, is that the EU has a problem with illegal immigration.

http://www.euronews.com/2015/08/19/calais-migrant-deadlock-prompts-new-talks/ yes.gif

What's not clear is how voting in the referendum will change the situation here in the UK.

From this discussion so far, it seems that other current European laws will still force the UK to accommodate its fair share of the continent's increasing number of illegal immigrants.

My point is will that matter to some voters, who perhaps see this as a deciding issue?

I would argue that, given the scale of the crisis and its impact here in the UK, both the Yes and No campaigns will have to take a position on the issue. The Yes campaign may attempt to demonstrate that the French and UK governments are belatedly improving their joint management of the situation at Calais, while the No campaign may promise further change to come to those immigration laws that the UK presently obeys if we vote to leave, therefore making it a possible issue in the referendum.

Posted by: Kemedian 25th Aug 2015, 10:00pm

It's not just the UK seeking significant change in EU immigration policy.

Here's an alternative vision, courtesy of...

QUOTE
Germany stands ready to do its utmost to drive forward the common project of a refugee policy based on the principle of solidarity.

The political framework for action has long since ceased to be national – particularly with regard to refugee and migration policy. Only together and only at the European level will we be able at all to find rational solutions. This is why refugee and migration policy is currently the most important policy field in which we must further the project of European integration with dynamism and conviction.

Europe cannot put this off any longer and the EU must act now.

Ten points must urgently be addressed in this regard:
  1. Humane conditions must prevail throughout the EU when refugees are received.
  2. A common European code of asylum must guarantee asylum status that is valid throughout the EU for refugees in need of protection.
  3. We need a fair distribution of refugees in Europe.
  4. Europe needs a common approach to managing its borders, which cannot be merely restricted to securing our frontiers.
  5. We must provide immediate assistance to the EU countries that are currently under particular strain.
  6. We cannot stand idly by and watch people risk their lives trying to get to us.
  7. We must make readmission a key priority of our relations with the countries of origin and also be prepared to make technical and financial support for these counties contingent on constructive cooperation.
  8. We must come to an EU-wide understanding as to which nations we consider to be safe countries of origin.
  9. Germany needs an immigration Act.
  10. A comprehensive European asylum, refugee and migration policy also requires new political initiatives to fight the causes of flight in the countries of the Middle East and Africa.
http://www.uk.diplo.de/Vertretung/unitedkingdom/en/__pr/Latest__News/08/Steinmeier-Gabriel-10-Point-Plan.html?archive=3534276

Posted by: Billy Boil 27th Aug 2015, 08:41am

I spent some time in my youth unloading "butter Ships" from Australia and New Zealand at the Renfrew docks. I remember it for the cold store paid the highest bonus for moving butter. I remember at the time ( mid 1960s) when butter from N.Z. was as cheap, if not cheaper than margarine. Around that time I started travelling around Europe, France mostly, and was quite taken by the difference in price for alcohol and tobacco. My father always bemoaned the fact that entry to the E.U. would mean cutting U.K. out of the markets in the Commonwealth. I reached Australia in the early 70s and was surprised at the cost of food alcohol and tobacco, being then for the last two about 1/4 of the price in the U.K. ( $2 for a side of lamb cut up and ready to go). Food is still relatively cheap but owing to overseas demand for all our produce prices are again rising rapidly. The point of all this is that when U.K. abandoned the Commonwealth in favour of Europe every one was predicting the demise of the traditional suppliers of the U.K. markets. It did not happen and from the 70s onwards Australia N.Z. Canada etc. experienced unprecedented growth and prosperity. What my point is, what did the U.K.

Scotland in particular gain from entry to the E.U. and is there further reason for them to stay in what has become a financial drain ( in terms of Greece and other countries unpayable debts.) What is fast becoming a " migrant " nightmare and with rumblings of insecurity of financial institutions in some of the E.U.'s largest economies.

Posted by: Kemedian 1st Sep 2015, 06:37pm

The Electoral Commission is recommending that the referendum question be changed, to make it more fair.

It has realised that asking the electorate if it agrees with a statement is bound to hand an immediate advantage to the Yes campaign.

Instead of 'Yes/ No', the UK Parliament will now vote on the recommendation to change the options to 'Remain/ Leave'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34114303

I think this a fairer question that will make for a fairer contest, but it won't alter the result. biggrin.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 1st Sep 2015, 07:08pm

How come we don't have the usual suspects who constantly bombarded the independence referendum thread with non stop doom and gloom posts of how the referendum was causing uncertainty and companies were unwilling to invest and the country was on hold etc, etc, etc, posting now? unsure.gif

Posted by: ktv 2nd Sep 2015, 07:29am

so now theyre changing the question.

is this because a "yes" vote was getting 58%?.......not close enough for some it would seem to lets just change it to "stay" which would get 51% (according to the polls)

who all still believing the gov want us to remain in the EU?

kem is....right who else?

Posted by: Kemedian 2nd Sep 2015, 07:40pm

http://www.itv.com/news/2015-09-02/uk-must-help-ease-humanitarian-burden-of-refugee-crisis-or-risk-damage-to-eu-reform-plans/

One for the 'No/Leave' camp. sad.gif




QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 1st Sep 2015, 08:16pm) *
How come we don't have the usual suspects who constantly bombarded the (Scottish) independence referendum thread with non stop doom and gloom posts of how the referendum was causing uncertainty and companies were unwilling to invest and the country was on hold etc, etc, etc, posting now? unsure.gif

Isn't that the SNP position now?

Posted by: JAGZ1876 2nd Sep 2015, 10:16pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 2nd Sep 2015, 08:48pm) *
http://www.itv.com/news/2015-09-02/uk-must-help-ease-humanitarian-burden-of-refugee-crisis-or-risk-damage-to-eu-reform-plans/


Isn't that the SNP position now?


No, it isn't.

Posted by: Kemedian 3rd Sep 2015, 05:41pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34133269

Another one for the 'No/Leave' camp. sad.gif





QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 2nd Sep 2015, 11:24pm) *
No, it isn't.

Post #1 reveals the SNP opposition to the EU Ref, and the Party wouldn't have taken this position if it believed that the Ref was good for Scotland. Don't you agree?

Posted by: john.mcn 3rd Sep 2015, 06:02pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 3rd Sep 2015, 05:49pm) *
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34133269

Another one for the 'No/Leave' camp. sad.gif



The EU aren't doing themselves any favours are they. Minimum pricing is a good thing that will hopefully benefit peoples health but Big Brother says maybe not, if only 'we' could control alcohol duty

Posted by: Kemedian 3rd Sep 2015, 10:08pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 3rd Sep 2015, 07:10pm) *
The EU aren't doing themselves any favours are they. Minimum pricing is a good thing that will hopefully benefit peoples health but Big Brother says maybe not, if only 'we' could control alcohol duty

Take note, Jagz.

There writes a consistent supporter of Scottish Independence.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 4th Sep 2015, 08:29am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 3rd Sep 2015, 06:49pm) *
Post #1 reveals the SNP opposition to the EU Ref, and the Party wouldn't have taken this position if it believed that the Ref was good for Scotland. Don't you agree?


Opposing something is one thing, but making up lies and scare sories to frighten the gullable into voting your way are two different things entirly.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 4th Sep 2015, 08:35am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 3rd Sep 2015, 11:16pm) *
Take note, Jagz.

There writes a consistent supporter of Scottish Independence.


I agree with John on this, so why should i take note? unsure.gif


Posted by: Kemedian 4th Sep 2015, 03:31pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 4th Sep 2015, 09:43am) *
I agree with John on this, so why should i take note? unsure.gif

Unlike John and unlike your recent Yes to Independence, this time you're prepared to put up with and vote in favour of these sorts of decisions continuing to be made by the Union. yes.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 4th Sep 2015, 06:11pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 4th Sep 2015, 04:39pm) *
Unlike John and unlike your recent Yes to Independence, this time you're prepared to put up with and vote in favour of these sorts of decisions continuing to be made by the Union. yes.gif


That makes as much sense as one of your graphs. laugh.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 4th Sep 2015, 08:17pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 4th Sep 2015, 07:19pm) *
That makes as much sense as one of your graphs. laugh.gif

But that's your position.

Posted by: Tally Rand 5th Sep 2015, 05:03pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 11th Aug 2015, 08:12pm) *
What the political parties say or support does not really mean anything to the man/woman on the street. When it comes to the EU and where people think it's heading ( a superstate) every conversation i hear around it results in people wanting out.

This is the "Super State" envisioned by Augustus Caesar, Napoleon, and Adolf Hitler. They also neglected to take the opinion of the conquered nations into account when issuing their "diktats".

Posted by: carmella 5th Sep 2015, 05:55pm

QUOTE (Tally Rand @ 5th Sep 2015, 06:11pm) *
This is the "Super State" envisioned by Augustus Caesar, Napoleon, and Adolf Hitler. They also neglected to take the opinion of the conquered nations into account when issuing their "diktats".

When have the opinions of 'ra peeple' ever mattered? Certainly, the leaders of each nation had more say than the people did, or ever would.

There are things about being part of the EU that some think are good. For me personally, I dislike the fact that they tell us what to do, what kind of measuring system we should have (bring back feet and inches I say) and temperatures. One good thing I'll say about America is that they still have feet and inches and temperatures in Farenheit - good on them.

Posted by: john.mcn 6th Sep 2015, 12:08pm


oops wrong thread.

Posted by: Kemedian 7th Sep 2015, 11:10pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 1st Sep 2015, 08:16pm) *
How come we don't have the usual suspects who constantly bombarded the independence referendum thread with non stop doom and gloom posts of how the referendum was causing uncertainty and companies were unwilling to invest and the country was on hold etc, etc, etc, posting now? unsure.gif
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 4th Sep 2015, 09:37am) *
Opposing something is one thing, but making up lies and scare sories to frighten the gullable into voting your way are two different things entirly.

A near 50/50% split across the UK, according to a recent poll, says the SNP policy of opposing this referendum was wrong.

For some, 45% is good enough for a badge!

If it's not on the SNP agenda then it doesn't matter to the Party, even if it matters to the people (as indicated by poll after poll).

If the SNP continues not to take this Ref seriously - seeing it (as the Party does most things) through the telescope of an independent Scotland - then the Party might end up on the wrong side of a referendum defeat for the second time in Scotland in succession.

QUOTE (Stephen Gethins, SNP Europe spokesman in Westminster @ 7th Sept, 2015)
Scotland should not be ripped out of the EU against its will which is why the SNP called for a double-majority safeguard to be added to the EU referendum - so the decision should be dependent on all four UK nations.

Membership of the EU will continue to have a positive impact on jobs and Scotland’s economy.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/majority-of-uk-voters-want-to-leave-eu-poll-1-3879429

Posted by: Kemedian 7th Sep 2015, 11:34pm

To date, Jagz, apart from sporadic low-key warnings about jobs and the economy such like that from the SNP spokesperson above, the main argument being used by the SNP in the debate appears to be that the Party's expectation of a Scottish vote to remain set against a RUK vote to leave the EU would justify calling for a second Scottish Indy Ref. rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 8th Sep 2015, 07:33am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 8th Sep 2015, 12:42am) *
To date, Jagz, apart from sporadic low-key warnings about jobs and the economy such like that from the SNP spokesperson above, the main argument being used by the SNP in the debate appears to be that the Party's expectation of a Scottish vote to remain set against a RUK vote to leave the EU would justify calling for a second Scottish Indy Ref. rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif


If Scotland votes to stay in the EU and England votes to leave the EU then in my opinion a second referendum should be called, after all, the NO camp wheeled out Barroso and anyone else they could find to repeat their scare stories of how an independent Scotland would be kicked out the EU and busnesses would pack up and leave in droves if we were thrown out of a union that has 500 million people.

You Britnats can't have it both ways (the forked tongue i referred to in an previous post) although history proves you have. yes.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 8th Sep 2015, 07:44am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 8th Sep 2015, 12:42am) *
Scottish vote to remain set against a RUK vote to leave the EU


Just out of intrest kem, if Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland were to vote to remain in the EU but England votes to leave, would you say England voted NO but the RUK voted YES?

Or do You (like most unionist do) view England as the UK?

Posted by: Kemedian 8th Sep 2015, 09:37am

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 8th Sep 2015, 08:41am) *
You Britnats can't have it both ways (the forked tongue i referred to in an previous post) although history proves you have. yes.gif
QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 8th Sep 2015, 08:52am) *
Or do You (like most unionist do) view England as the UK?

'Britnat'... 'Unionist'...

Can't we both just be Scottish, for a change? It would save a lot of unnecessary aggro.

I haven't and won't be labelling you according to your position in this debate, however I am pointing out to you that your argument would seem to be at odds with what you stood for during the last referendum; a fair point, which you haven't yet addressed.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 8th Sep 2015, 10:48am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 8th Sep 2015, 10:45am) *
'Britnat'... 'Unionist'...

Can't we both just be Scottish, for a change? It would save a lot of unnecessary aggro.

I haven't and won't be labelling you according to your position in this debate, however I am pointing out to you that your argument would seem to be at odds with what you stood for during the last referendum; a fair point, which you haven't yet addressed.


How can calling you a unionist or a British nationalist be viewed as aggro, do you want the union to remain and are you a British national?

How am i at odds with what i stood for in the referendum?

I wanted an independent Scotland within the EU and now i want Scotland as part of the UK to remain in the EU.

Posted by: Kemedian 9th Sep 2015, 05:22pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 8th Sep 2015, 11:56am) *
How can calling you a unionist or a British nationalist be viewed as aggro, do you want the union to remain and are you a British national?

How am i at odds with what i stood for in the referendum?

I wanted an independent Scotland within the EU and now i want Scotland as part of the UK to remain in the EU.

Will you agree, for the sake of argument, to respect and refer to one another just as Scotsmen from now on? smile.gif

During Scotland's Indy Ref last year you argued for separation from the Union and now you are basically arguing for the status quo at the forthcoming UK Indy Ref, in other words you now agree with the majority of Scots that Holyrood and the EU Parliament are better together.

An earlier passage of this thread attempted to highlight the existing UK and EU economic austerity policies. Whether an independent Scotland formed a currency union with the UK - something you stood for last time - or with the EU would make no difference; the policy of recovery in both economies is the same. Hence my earlier point that for voters like yourself, for whom it's a 'Yes' in both referendums, the position is apparently: UK austerity bad, EU austerity good. This is but one example of similar powers that both Unions can and do exercise, yet its significance seems not to carry weight in both of your votes, thus highlighting an inconsistency in your arguments, in my opinion, which you tried so hard to ignore with your clever use of words above.

Posted by: john.mcn 9th Sep 2015, 06:28pm



I as well as my wife are voting to leave the EU, as time goes on i can see more and more who didn't care one way or the other to do the same.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Sep 2015, 07:12pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 9th Sep 2015, 06:30pm) *
Will you agree, for the sake of argument, to respect and refer to one another just as Scotsmen from now on? smile.gif

During Scotland's Indy Ref last year you argued for separation from the Union and now you are basically arguing for the status quo at the forthcoming UK Indy Ref, in other words you now agree with the majority of Scots that Holyrood and the EU Parliament are better together.


Not while myself and other YES voters are being called "nationalists", "nazis" etc.

I will be voting YES to remain in the EU, after all that was a big part of your and other unionists arguments against Scottish self determination last year, i would like to think an independent Scotland would do well in the EU, using our own rich fishing grounds and agriculture etc to benefit us and not being used as sacraficial pawns to get better deals for the SE of England, surely you should be persuading your fellow unionists who have a seperatist agenda who would see the UK ripped out of the EU and our shared forty year history dumped, i have family and friends all over Europe, and for me to tell my two little boys (23 & 20) that they can't visit their Granny in Malaga because there will be machine gunned border posts with landmines just breaks my heart.......... tongue.gif

It's Wednesday and i'm pissed, but i still can't come up with anymore stupid scare stories than you and your pals came up with last year. laugh.gif

Posted by: carmella 9th Sep 2015, 07:24pm

QUOTE
It's Wednesday and i'm pissed, but i still can't come up with anymore stupid scare stories than you and your pals came up with last year.


Struth Jagz, is it only a Wednesday you get pissed? That explains a lot laugh.gif

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Posted by: Kemedian 9th Sep 2015, 08:23pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 9th Sep 2015, 08:20pm) *
Not while myself and other YES voters are being called "nationalists", "nazis" etc.

I will be voting YES to remain in the EU, after all that was a big part of your and other unionists arguments against Scottish self determination last year, i would like to think an independent Scotland would do well in the EU, using our own rich fishing grounds and agriculture etc to benefit us and not being used as sacraficial pawns to get better deals for the SE of England, surely you should be persuading your fellow unionists who have a seperatist agenda who would see the UK ripped out of the EU and our shared forty year history dumped, i have family and friends all over Europe, and for me to tell my two little boys (23 & 20) that they can't visit their Granny in Malaga because there will be machine gunned border posts with landmines just breaks my heart.......... tongue.gif

It's Wednesday and i'm pissed, but i still can't come up with anymore stupid scare stories than you and your pals came up with last year. laugh.gif

OK. If I agree to consider and call you as simply a Scotsman, will you return me the same courtesy henceforth, to show the rest of them that it's not impossible?

Wasn't the 'better together' argument of last year's Scottish referendum that an independent Scotland would have to reapply to join the EU?

There are also very many EU nationals who feel that their own country's wealth is being used to benefit other parts of the Union.

Shared forty year history?? That's nearly as old as me!!! laugh.gif

And what have I told you about boozing and browsing. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Sep 2015, 10:28pm

QUOTE (carmella @ 9th Sep 2015, 08:32pm) *
Struth Jagz, is it only a Wednesday you get pissed? That explains a lot laugh.gif

Sorry, I couldn't resist.


After almost thirty years of driving a black hack in Glasgow i always took Wednesday off as it was the middle of the week and if there was football being played it was always on a Wednesday (guy's of a certain age will know what i mean) so yes Wednesday is my traditional drinking night even though now i'm no longer driving cabs Carmella.

Wednesday is still my night to have a few, laugh.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Sep 2015, 10:32pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 9th Sep 2015, 09:31pm) *
Wasn't the 'better together' argument of last year's Scottish referendum that an independent Scotland would have to reapply to join the EU?

There are also very many EU nationals who feel that their own country's wealth is being used to benefit other parts of the Union.

Shared forty year history?? That's nearly as old as me!!! laugh.gif

And what have I told you about boozing and browsing. rolleyes.gif



You just don't get irony................Do you?

What did i say about my drunken posts making more sence than your sober ones. laugh.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 10th Sep 2015, 08:08pm

I have respectfully suggested to you, several times now, that we should make a decent effort to acknowledge and refer to each other as nothing short of fellow Scots from now on in these debates, instead of using other names that typically cause unhelpful distraction.

Is this really too much to ask of you,

Jagz?

confused2.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 10th Sep 2015, 09:07pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 10th Sep 2015, 09:16pm) *
I have respectfully suggested to you, several times now, that we should make a decent effort to acknowledge and refer to each other as nothing short of fellow Scots from now on in these debates, instead of using other names that typically cause unhelpful distraction.

Is this really too much to ask of you,

Jagz?

confused2.gif


What if i just call you what Gordon Brown calls himself, a North Briton? laugh.gif

Posted by: wombat 10th Sep 2015, 09:44pm

rolleyes.gif or a NOB for short laugh.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 11th Sep 2015, 07:23am

QUOTE (wombat @ 10th Sep 2015, 10:52pm) *
rolleyes.gif or a NOB for short laugh.gif


Why didn't i think of that. laugh.gif

Posted by: serabash 11th Sep 2015, 10:05am

QUOTE (wombat @ 10th Sep 2015, 10:52pm) *
rolleyes.gif or a NOB for short laugh.gif


lol just spat my tea over my laptop. thanks wombat. laugh.gif

Posted by: ktv 11th Sep 2015, 10:37am

QUOTE (wombat @ 10th Sep 2015, 10:52pm) *
rolleyes.gif or a NOB for short laugh.gif


everyone in work looking at me when I gave out a big belly laugh too blush.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 11th Sep 2015, 05:39pm

OK Jagz.

Posted by: Kemedian 11th Sep 2015, 06:27pm

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/david-cameron-rejects-eu-call-to-take-refugee-share-1-3882636 sad.gif

Opt in, I say.

Posted by: Talisman 15th Sep 2015, 03:41am

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 10th Sep 2015, 09:15pm) *
What if i just call you what Gordon Brown calls himself, a North Briton? laugh.gif

Careful, he will be quoting with "GREEN" ink next!!!!

Posted by: Kemedian 15th Sep 2015, 06:13pm

QUOTE (Humza Yousaf, SNP Minister for Europe @ 13th September, 2015)
We welcome Ireland’s decision to opt into President Juncker’s expanded EU-wide relocation scheme and call on the Prime Minister to follow the Irish example and also opt in to help our neighbours and European partners cope with this humanitarian crisis. The UK has a moral obligation to help some of the most vulnerable people that are coming to Europe seeking protection. We cannot turn our back on innocent men, women and children.

http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Scotland-stands-ready-to-welcome-refugees-1cee.aspx


cool3.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 15th Sep 2015, 06:58pm

EU ref thread??

Posted by: Kemedian 15th Sep 2015, 07:06pm

Something up with you tonight??

Posted by: john.mcn 15th Sep 2015, 07:36pm

Nothing to do with the upcoming EU referendum.

Posted by: Kemedian 15th Sep 2015, 08:15pm

It highlights a major difference between Scottish and British Government policy regarding cooperation with the EU on a defining political situation not only for the Union but also the UK's place and role within it.

The two Governments both advocate a Yes vote to remain, but this disagreement reveals the serious difficulty that the UK Gov can have with EU Politics and I also think it adds to the overall debate.

Posted by: john.mcn 15th Sep 2015, 08:55pm

Would the SG be as welcoming if Cameron turns around and says OK take take as many as you want, but it comes out of your block grant. Would the SNP welcome this responsibility if that also came with the responsibility to pay for it, what budgets will be cut or taxes raised to fund it. You also have the knock on effect of people who are affected by taxes or cuts voting for someone else. you see as a YES voter i welcome the SG having this responsibility because i believe if you want to talk the talk you better be able to walk the walk as well.

Posted by: Kemedian 15th Sep 2015, 10:10pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 15th Sep 2015, 10:03pm) *
Would the SG be as welcoming if Cameron turns around and says OK take as many as you want, but it comes out of your block grant?

The SG policy is slightly irregular, because as well as stipulating it will take precisely 10% of the UK influx it is arguing that the UK should be opting into the EU plan, which would greatly increase the 10% amount currently expected.

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 15th Sep 2015, 10:03pm) *
You also have the knock on effect of people who are affected by taxes or cuts voting for someone else. You see as a YES voter i welcome the SG having this responsibility, because i believe if you want to talk the talk you better be able to walk the walk as well.

I think that the answer to your initial question is YES, going by what the Minister had to say, which I welcome and you don't, going by everything that you're saying. biggrin.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 16th Sep 2015, 07:26am

No i dont welcome it, for one the money is far better better spent at source, and another opening borders will create a rush and cause more deaths as people attempt the crossing. There has been many more childrens deaths since Alan Kurdis picture was seen around the world but there has hardly been any news about it. If the SNP want this responsibility then the people more likely to have new 'guests' are the ones in poorer neighbouhoods where their support seems to be gaining, with power comes responsibility and their focus should be on the people here. So give us the powers and let them use them, it will stop all this politicking crap and force them to put up or shut up...

Posted by: Billy Boil 18th Sep 2015, 07:50pm

In the manner of media and political exploitation of the "hand wring and heart rendering" use of images for cheap manipulation of excessive artificial emotional imagery, I would like to make the following points. Whereas the deliberate image of a toddler being taken from the water dead, it was a calculated use of death to re-enforce a desired opinion. There was little that was not journalistic disrespect for the dead. Up till now (2015) 247 have died on Australian beaches and rivers.

Three toddlers were killed in accidents in their own drive ways this last month or so. Australia for some reason unbeknown to any is accepting 12000 Syrians on top of what it already took and is already taking. There is talk in circles beyond the reach of input or advise of hosting the influx on small rural communities and even individual households. (this has already occurred in Italy where vacant houses of jailed persons have been given out to those arriving in Italy). Nowhere will the politicians, anxious only for kudos at the future ballot box, ever take into account the hopes and desires of the overruled voiceless minions that make up their constituencies. And as far as the dictators in Brussels are concerned; be told be very told.

Posted by: Betsy2009 18th Sep 2015, 08:02pm

So sad.
Almost a happy/safe family then tragedy.

"A three-year-old refugee from Iraq died at a welcoming party shortly after he arrived in Germany, having undertaken a 3,000 mile journey across Europe.

The boy, who has not been named, was playing on rope hanging between two large flower pots.

One of the pots fell over as he played, crushing him.

He was attending the party with his parents and nine-year-old brother in the town of Eschweiler, in the west of the country.

The party was organised by local residents and aid groups for newly-arrived refugees. The boy and his family had arrived in Germany just four weeks earlier, after having made the long and difficult journey from Iraq."

Posted by: Betsy2009 18th Sep 2015, 08:04pm

This one didn't make it.

A four-year-old Syrian girl's body washed up on a beach in western Turkey on Friday, state media said, just weeks after images of drowned Syrian toddler Aylan Kurdi shook the world.

The yet-to-be identified girl was found lifeless on a beach in the Aegean town of Cesme in Izmir province after a boat carrying 15 Syrians to the Greek island of Chios sank, the official Anatolia news agency said.

It said the Turkish coast guard rescued the remaining 14 Syrians, including eight children, from the inflatable boat. The girl appeared to be the only casualty.

Posted by: Talisman 21st Sep 2015, 05:07am

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 18th Sep 2015, 08:12pm) *
This one didn't make it.

A four-year-old Syrian girl's body washed up on a beach in western Turkey on Friday, state media said, just weeks after images of drowned Syrian toddler Aylan Kurdi shook the world.

The yet-to-be identified girl was found lifeless on a beach in the Aegean town of Cesme in Izmir province after a boat carrying 15 Syrians to the Greek island of Chios sank, the official Anatolia news agency said.

It said the Turkish coast guard rescued the remaining 14 Syrians, including eight children, from the inflatable boat. The girl appeared to be the only casualty.

Telling tales of woeful tragedy does no one any good or service. Thousands more die in Africa from starvation and disease on a daily basis.

Posted by: Kemedian 27th Sep 2015, 09:01am

QUOTE (Farage @ this morning on telly)
If it was a vote to join the EU, the result would be a resounding No.

Sounds familiar. rolleyes.gif

He may be right, but let's hope we answer the actual question in a similarly emphatic manner!

'Yes, please.'

Then maybe we'll see the back of him too.

yes.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 27th Sep 2015, 10:22am

It seems a common thing with you kem, someone campaigns for a vote,loses then he should disappear....
I doubt very much farage would just walk off into the sunset if the public vote to stay in the EU, and neither should he. The EU is becoming what exactly many fear what it would become, a controlling behemoth that thinks nothing of a nations sovereignty. Look at the recent vote for migrant quotas, some countries are against it and even openly hostile to them, but the EU knowing of these decide to break with the standard and go for the majority vote so that their vote does not count. Even with those who voted for it, are they voting with the backing of their countries population, they after all the ones who will have to bend over backwards to appease the thousands dumped on their neighbourhoods..
Not everyone sitting watching the videos and independent news outlets reporting the migrant situation(not the BBC) can seriously think forcing countries to put up with the swarms flowing over their borders is right and just. Some will be perfectly happy with larger countries forcing through policy when their smaller neighbours are against it, some people even call that 'democracy' but as we have seem here it stokes up resentment and plebiscites.
It's all fine and well to say 'ahhh but the UK is not in Schengen so it doesn't apply...Well we had a German minister (Stephan Mayer) suggest recently that if the UK doesn't play ball with migrants Cameron can forget about concessions before the referendum.

Posted by: Betsy2009 27th Sep 2015, 10:30am

This man is fairly sensible. If only Cameron would listen to him.

QUOTE
"Right now, Lord Leach says the momentum is with the “No” lobby because of the migrant crisis, and before it, the eurozone crisis and Greece. “But this is changing hour by hour, even as we speak. British opinion is on a knife-edge. The public is exhausted by too many superficial polls. Our research suggests about 25 per cent is fixed for the inners, and 25 to 30 per cent for the outers. This leaves nearly half the electorate leaning this way or that but essentially still undecided.”

For him, David Cameron and George Osborne will only win if they negotiate “big picture” reform with the EU, halting the current inexorable direction of travel towards an EU superstate. “Even Otmar Issing – one of the euro’s founding fathers – warns that the latest plan for an EU-wide finance ministry with control over tax and spending is a foolhardy attempt to smuggle through political union, and breaches the basic fundamentals of modern democracy.”

There are two big changes, Lord Leach says, that would constitute a good deal. “The first step would be to redefine the EU as the Single Market, not as a vague aspiration to political union – with safeguards put in place to ensure that as the eurozone integrates, it does not write the rules for the rest of the member states."


http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/lord-leach-and-open-europe-only-big-picture-reform-will-keep-britain-in-the-eu/ar-AAeNYVg?ocid=spartandhp

Posted by: Talisman 2nd Oct 2015, 11:20am

Let's here it one more time for "Deutschland Uber Alles. for that's what it will be. The "United States of Europe?

"Fareweel ee'n tae oor Scottish name, sae famed in martial station".

Posted by: DannyH 15th Oct 2015, 11:29pm

On the GG forum, we have two seperate topics, One being Scottish Independence, and the other being, UK Independence Referendum.

For me personally, these are two SEPERATE ISSUES. You may have voted for Scotland's independence, but that doesn't mean you won't vote for the UK to leave the European Union.

Conversely, you may have voted against Scotland leaving the UK, but that doesn't mean you will vote for the UK to stay in the European Union.

I am therefore puzzled why Nicola Sturgeon has said on more than one occasion, that if the UK votes to leave the European Union, it may go against the wishes of the people of Scotland.

What if the majority of Scottish electorate vote to leave the European Union, but the majority of the rest of the UK vote to stay in the European Union?

Unlike the Scottish referendum, European citizens living in the UK will not be allowed to vote in the In/Out UK independence referendum; so at least this time we will know what the SCOTTISH electorate wants, no matter what the outcome is.

If the SNP want us to stay in the EU, then I hope they come up with facts which back up their reasons for staying in the EU. If they simply start scaremongering about the number of jobs that will be lost if we leave the EU, then they will be just as bad as the BETTER TOGETHER mob that came to Scotland and used that tactic.

This is a golden opportunity for the SNP to show leadership. Saying "A UK majority vote to leave the EU, may go against the wishes of the people of Scotland", is a real thought provoking statement, isn't it!!!

Danny Harris


Posted by: JAGZ1876 16th Oct 2015, 07:47am

QUOTE (DannyH @ 16th Oct 2015, 12:37am) *
If the SNP want us to stay in the EU, then I hope they come up with facts which back up their reasons for staying in the EU. If they simply start scaremongering about the number of jobs that will be lost if we leave the EU, then they will be just as bad as the BETTER TOGETHER mob that came to Scotland and used that tactic.


Danny Harris


You're not suggesting that the people of Scotland were lied to last year when we were told that an independent Scotland would be booted out of the EU and not allowed to return losing us access to 500 million potential customers for our business's Danny, are you? unsure.gif

Posted by: Dave Grieve 16th Oct 2015, 08:15am

I have never understood the obsession about staying in the EU.

Our biggest customer block is the EU and we are 6000 miles away from the place. wink.gif

I have never understood the obsession about staying in the EU.

Our biggest customer block is the EU and we are 6000 miles away from the place. wink.gif

Posted by: ktv 16th Oct 2015, 10:39am

QUOTE (DannyH @ 16th Oct 2015, 12:37am) *
I am therefore puzzled why Nicola Sturgeon has said on more than one occasion, that if the UK votes to leave the European Union, it may go against the wishes of the people of Scotland.

What if the majority of Scottish electorate vote to leave the European Union, but the majority of the rest of the UK vote to stay in the European Union?


she said that because it might go against our wishes......

if the Ruk votes to leave yet Scotland votes to stay then it will be against our wishes.

on the other hand we might vote to leave and the ruk votes to stay.. that would also go against our wishes.

the point being we might get dragged out or kept in against our wishes.

that's why she said "it may go against our wishes"....because it might.


Posted by: DannyH 17th Oct 2015, 11:44am

QUOTE (ktv @ 16th Oct 2015, 11:47am) *
she said that because it might go against our wishes......

if the Ruk votes to leave yet Scotland votes to stay then it will be against our wishes.

on the other hand we might vote to leave and the ruk votes to stay.. that would also go against our wishes.

the point being we might get dragged out or kept in against our wishes.

that's why she said "it may go against our wishes"....because it might.


Hello KTV

No no no! She didn't just say "It might go against our wishes" .You have conveniently left out "If Scotland votes to stay in the EU, but the rest of the UK votes to opt out".

Do you really think I would have said anything if all she had said was "It may go against our wishes".
I get the feeling you are one of the people on the GG forum, who feels that some of us are so stupid we need explanations from people like yourself who are more intelligent. Or maybe it is you using your old ploy of being a wind up merchant. She didn't make any reference to Scotland voting to leave the EU, and the rest of the UK voting to stay in.

Danny Harris

Posted by: ktv 19th Oct 2015, 07:49am

QUOTE (DannyH @ 17th Oct 2015, 12:52pm) *
Hello KTV

No no no! She didn't just say "It might go against our wishes" .You have conveniently left out "If Scotland votes to stay in the EU, but the rest of the UK votes to opt out".

Do you really think I would have said anything if all she had said was "It may go against our wishes".
I get the feeling you are one of the people on the GG forum, who feels that some of us are so stupid we need explanations from people like yourself who are more intelligent. Or maybe it is you using your old ploy of being a wind up merchant. She didn't make any reference to Scotland voting to leave the EU, and the rest of the UK voting to stay in.

Danny Harris


QUOTE
if the Ruk votes to leave yet Scotland votes to stay then it will be against our wishes.


Hi Danny
thanks for your pedantic passive aggressive post but your first paragraph is exactly what I said...its also exactly what you said in the post I quoted...do you fail to understand because I worded it differently?
so because I added "if it was the other way round" "it would still be against our wishes" you produce that thumb sucker of a post? (ps you also said that)



and yes maybe I do have to explain to you what your talking about since your too pedantic to understand a simple conversation.

Posted by: flam 19th Oct 2015, 11:14am

She is like Kenny Dalglish ," Maybe Aye. Maybe No "

Posted by: JAGZ1876 19th Oct 2015, 12:25pm

QUOTE (flam @ 19th Oct 2015, 12:22pm) *
She is like Kenny Dalglish ,"



She is, she can always find the back of the net and is international class.

Finally we agree on something flam. laugh.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 3rd Nov 2015, 02:03pm

QUOTE (Spokesman for campaign to remain @ 2nd November, 2015)
Britons don't want to be part of an ever closer European Union.

http://www.itv.com/news/2015-11-02/britons-do-not-want-to-be-part-of-an-ever-closer-european-union-george-osborne-will-say/

Why not, and how can he be sure?

I want to. yes.gif

Support for the campaign will, I believe, keep us in. The likelihood of this result would only increase if a status-quo type of arrangement that's seen to protect the UK's interests could be agreed between the UK and the EU, as opposed to further integration, and the closeness in the opinion polls could provide the campaign with the necessary insurance policy to negotiate a deal to avoid Brexit.

The polls appear to be roughly sitting at 60/40% in favour of remaining.

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/2435/European-Union-membership-trends.aspx?view=wide

Posted by: john.mcn 3rd Nov 2015, 05:18pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 3rd Nov 2015, 02:11pm) *
Why not, and how can he be sure?

Probably because he knows that most people are not complete loons..
QUOTE
I want to. yes.gif

Herein lies proof biggrin.gif

QUOTE
Support for the campaign will, I believe, keep us in. The likelihood of this result would only increase if a status-quo type of arrangement that's seen to protect the UK's interests could be agreed between the UK and the EU, as opposed to further integration, and the closeness in the opinion polls could provide the campaign with the necessary insurance policy to negotiate a deal to avoid Brexit.

The polls appear to be roughly sitting at 60/40% in favour of remaining.

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/2435/European-Union-membership-trends.aspx?view=wide


Never took part in a poll, and in any discussion i've ever had with people i know they never have either.

And as i have always said < 2000 people is not the voting population. If Cameron can negotiate changes to the freedom of movement and more vetoes, inc the move to Superstate, then 'we' may vote to remain, but if not i can see more and more fence sitters voting to "get me the hell out a here, i'm 'British' "

Posted by: Betsy2009 9th Nov 2015, 09:17am

Just about sums it up ...

''Britain is suffering a crisis of confidence in foreign policy that leaves it “sidelined in Syria, ineffective in Ukraine, unwilling in Europe, and inimical towards refugees”, a report by some of Britain’s most senior former diplomats, intelligence officers and foreign policy academics has warned.''

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/british-foreign-policy-is-in-crisis-warn-senior-diplomatic-figures/ar-CC75LX?ocid=spartandhp

Posted by: Kemedian 12th Nov 2015, 10:01am

http://news.sky.com/story/1584559/eu-tells-pm-immigration-demand-problematic


The above article reveals a mixed but very interesting day of EUref news:


Posted by: Kemedian 19th Jan 2016, 12:20pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35348750

Bring it on.

Posted by: ktv 19th Jan 2016, 12:58pm

backing the tories kem?

hardly a surprise really

Posted by: Kemedian 19th Jan 2016, 05:03pm

QUOTE (ktv @ 19th Jan 2016, 01:06pm) *
backing the tories

I'm quite sure we could cope with two ballots all at once.

First of all, the election will be no contest; 45% past the post is plenty. Except in referendums of course, but if the PM gets his way then he should win his next one even more convincingly.

You can't blame him for another Indyref being dependent on us leaving the EU. (That would be the SNP manifesto.unsure.gif)

Posted by: Betsy2009 19th Jan 2016, 05:10pm

I don't think that Cameron wants to leave the EU. He's just doing this as a PR exercise.

Posted by: john.mcn 19th Jan 2016, 11:08pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 19th Jan 2016, 12:28pm) *
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35348750

Bring it on.


Dam right bring it on, the closer it is to the mayhem going on in the EU the better.

Seen this on another forum, Farage at the EU parliament stating the obvious to a few grim faces



Posted by: ktv 20th Jan 2016, 11:44am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 19th Jan 2016, 05:11pm) *
I'm quite sure we could cope with two ballots all at once.

First of all, the election will be no contest; 45% past the post is plenty. Except in referendums of course, but if the PM gets his way then he should win his next one even more convincingly.

You can't blame him for another Indyref being dependent on us leaving the EU. (That would be the SNP manifesto.unsure.gif)

another indy ref for scotland isnt dependant on anything to do with the EU, its been stated many many times that IF we vote differently then it might...thats a big IF, i suspect (as many do) that the difference between scotland and the rest of the uk on this subject will be minimal.


QUOTE (john.mcn @ 19th Jan 2016, 11:16pm) *
Farage .....



Posted by: GG 22nd Jan 2016, 12:01am

QUOTE
Sillars blasts SNP's 'love affair' with EU as he backs exit campaign

Former SNP deputy leader Jim Sillars has criticised the party's "love affair" with Europe as he revealed he will campaign for the UK to leave the European Union (EU).

Mr Sillars said he had met and would be happy to work with former MP Nigel Griffiths, who is leading a Labour campaign to leave the EU in Scotland.

The veteran nationalist and independence campaigner said he believed there could be SNP members who disagreed with the party leadership on Europe but would not speak out for fear of being branded "disloyal".

First Minister and SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon is strongly in favour of remaining in the EU.

Mr Sillars, husband of the late Margo MacDonald MSP, said: "I certainly met Nigel Griffiths and I'm very impressed by how he has put together a very good Labour Leave campaign in Scotland, but of course this is for Labour Party members and Labour supporters, of which at the moment I am not.

"I'm very happy to co-operate with Nigel. If I can be helpful, I will be helpful."

Mr Sillars said he had been "really astonished" by the number of SNP members he had spoken to who said that they did not want to remain in the EU.

He said: "There is a tendency if anyone within the party criticises the leadership to be then described as being disloyal. I think that's a very unhealthy situation inside any democratic political party. ...

Full story here:
http://www.glasgowsouthandeastwoodextra.co.uk/news/scottish-headlines/jim-sillars-blasts-snp-s-love-affair-with-eu-as-he-backs-exit-campaign-1-4007358

GG.

Posted by: Kemedian 22nd Jan 2016, 12:17pm

QUOTE (ktv @ 20th Jan 2016, 11:52am) *
the difference between scotland and the rest of the uk on this subject will be minimal.

Well said.

We can also read from GG's post above, quoting Jim Sillars, that in reality this issue shall prove those wrong who have tried to argue in the past that the SNP is internally different to the other UK political parties.

Sillars is so right about the need to give Party members freedom and choice to campaign on any issue no matter what. So far, in the build up to this referendum, the SNP has not done anything yet to disprove those who argue that its major obsession is holding it back.

Posted by: john.mcn 22nd Jan 2016, 04:36pm



I'm not a party member but i'm voting to leave, i vote SNP as do others i know who will also vote to leave, i know Labour supporters who voted YES but are also voting to leave. To be honest i'm struggling to think of any openly pro EU supporters whereas prior to the last years ref i knew who were YES/NO..

Posted by: Heather 22nd Jan 2016, 04:40pm

I have been an SNP voter for many year's, but I will also vote to leave the European Union.

My niece is a SNP MSP, but I will vote the way I choose.

Posted by: bilbo.s 22nd Jan 2016, 05:24pm

0/1

Posted by: Kemedian 24th Jan 2016, 02:25am

Let's be honest.

The Scottish Government is only interested in one debate.

Hence this EU referendum is reduced to just another excuse to have another Indyref.

Why?

Because it can be argued that voting for the status quo should be contrary to everything that the Scottish Independence campaign stood for.

The truth is, the two referendum debates are very similar. There is no status quo, there is only huge and irreversible change or small and negotiable change.

It is also arguable that either as an independent trading partner or as a negotiating member state, as an existing union of nations the UK maintains a better bargaining position with the rest of Europe than Scotland would.

This unavoidably raises a dilemma for those who voted for huge change and Scottish Independence and want now to vote against this opportunity for something very similar, huge change and British independence.

Unless Democracy is allowed to take effect the Political process will not function properly. To avoid such criticism, the Scottish Government has to get engaged in this current debate. It must drop the other argument to give its supporters the freedom they need to move in and out of different debates without getting too tied up and being open to accusations of inconsistency.

I believe there is a separate and strong case to be made for European Unity. However, the argument is weakened by comparison with and attempted relation to Scotland's indyref.

Posted by: john.mcn 24th Jan 2016, 10:53am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 24th Jan 2016, 02:33am) *
Let's be honest.

The Scottish Government is only interested in one debate.



That makes two of you then tongue.gif

Posted by: carmella 24th Jan 2016, 11:58am

I am not a SNP voter, but I have been saying we should leave the EU for a very long time.

Unless I can be convinced of the many good reasons for being part of it, that's how I'll be voting.

Posted by: flam 24th Jan 2016, 12:57pm

That is why Nicola is sitting on the fence making any excuse, she should come out right now and declare she wants to be 100% in staying in Europe, and just watch the SNP members drop like flies

Posted by: Dykejumper 24th Jan 2016, 01:14pm

Sturgeon doesnt want a referendum in June, thinks it might confuse the electorate, obviously doesnt
have a high opinion of the public's intelligence. I dont think she has to worry as I doubt the legalities
could be passed for a June vote.Cameron might even opt for 2017 in the hope that something
[other than another 330000 migrants of course] turns up to help his stay in vote.


Posted by: JAGZ1876 24th Jan 2016, 06:33pm

QUOTE (Dykejumper @ 24th Jan 2016, 01:22pm) *
Sturgeon doesnt want a referendum in June, thinks it might confuse the electorate, obviously doesnt
have a high opinion of the public's intelligence.


She doesn't think that at all, now be honest, you've just made that up, haven't you? yes.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 24th Jan 2016, 06:35pm

QUOTE (flam @ 24th Jan 2016, 01:05pm) *
That is why Nicola is sitting on the fence making any excuse, she should come out right now and declare she wants to be 100% in staying in Europe, and just watch the SNP members drop like flies


You wish. laugh.gif

Posted by: Dykejumper 24th Jan 2016, 06:53pm

Well Jagz go to the Andrew Marr show on BBC Iplayer and give me your biased assessment of what
she said, its around the 33 minute mark.
ps I note the SNP begging bowl is out so I trust you will be throwing in a few bob.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 25th Jan 2016, 02:40pm

QUOTE (Dykejumper @ 24th Jan 2016, 07:01pm) *
Well Jagz go to the Andrew Marr show on BBC Iplayer and give me your biased assessment of what
she said, its around the 33 minute mark.
ps I note the SNP begging bowl is out so I trust you will be throwing in a few bob.


I didn't see the interview and have no time to trawl through videos so did she say she doesn't have a high opinion of the public's intelligence?

I've had a busy Weekend so i must have missed this, why have the SNP got their begging bowl out?

Posted by: john.mcn 25th Jan 2016, 07:22pm


Andrew Mars interview with Nicola Sturgeon, EU discusiion around 4 minutes 40


Posted by: Kemedian 27th Jan 2016, 03:46pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 19th Jan 2016, 11:16pm) *
Bring it on, the closer it is to the mayhem going on in the EU the better.

Since when was it the British way to abandon Europe in time of need?

I'm reading a lot of conflicted views, from members on here who voted to leave the UK, now supporting the same sort of arguments in favour of remaining in the EU they recently fought against.

The level of interaction/ interference (depending on your viewpoint) between the EU and UK may not be equivalent to that of the Scottish and UK Parliaments, however due presently to the flowing of power in each Union the political situations are changing, such that the EU is growing and the UK is lessening in its influence over Scottish affairs.

The arguments in favour of Unionism are the same in both referendums, no matter the obvious attempts to disguise this by some GG members. THIS IS WHY the SNP and lots of its supporters can be seen and heard dancing a merry jig around the main issues and were against even having this debate in the first place.

It is quite laughable to read the same members on here, who passionately made the case in the previous referendum that the British Parliament was no good, now supporting its role within the EU. I seem to remember the old Yes campaign telling us that a new Scottish State would have no problem entering the EU following independence. Would this not still be the case, and wouldn't an 'out' vote trigger a second Indy ref???

It is my consistent argument that political union enhances the power of a parliament, because we are better together. Again I say to people, raise your gaze and see the benefits of being in the bigger picture and of having our say on matters otherwise entirely outwith our reach.

It is strongly argued elsewhere on here that actually Independence is a good thing and that the leaving nation's parliament stands to greatly benefit in so many ways. Yet many of those same voices are here seemingly in contradiction.

To my point of view, maintaining Scotland's link to both the UK and the EU is mutually beneficial. The same arguments work for me both times. Unlike John.mcn - whose arguments in these issues at least I find to be consistent - I do hope that we vote to support the EU where we can, because I believe the UK can! smile.gif

Posted by: ktv 27th Jan 2016, 04:05pm

kem thats a load of rubbish im afraid.


the snp and members of the yes side always said they wanted to be an indy country in the eu, just like every other country in the eu.
under the uk system we cannot make our own internal policy without most of it being ok'd by westmonster. while most of the laws from the EU benefit the people here unlike vindictive laws imposed from london.

so instead of bemoaning what happened in a far far away referendum on this thread why dont you tell us why youl be voting yes instead of praising westminster at every approach like you did in the other thread.

Posted by: john.mcn 27th Jan 2016, 07:10pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 27th Jan 2016, 03:54pm) *
Since when was it the British way to abandon Europe in time of need?



Might want to check the history books wink.gif

Posted by: DannyH 28th Jan 2016, 12:00am

Yes, start at 1945. We went to war in 1939 because Germany had invaded Poland. In 1945, having defeated the Germans, we turned our backs on Poland and left them at the mercy of the Russians. If you lived in the 'West' during that period, you were probably grateful that hositilities had ceased. I can't speak on behalf of the people who lived behind the 'Iron Curtain, but I would think that many of them would have wondered why they bothered resisting the Germans.

Millions of lives were lost in two World Wars against the Germans, but now we go cap in hand to plead with Angela Merkal to support the UK in getting a new deal.

Danny

Posted by: marydee 28th Jan 2016, 10:25am

QUOTE (DannyH @ 28th Jan 2016, 12:08am) *
Yes, start at 1945. We went to war in 1939 because Germany had invaded Poland. In 1945, having defeated the Germans, we turned our backs on Poland and left them at the mercy of the Russians. If you lived in the 'West' during that period, you were probably grateful that hositilities had ceased. I can't speak on behalf of the people who lived behind the 'Iron Curtain, but I would think that many of them would have wondered why they bothered resisting the Germans.

Millions of lives were lost in two World Wars against the Germans, but now we go cap in hand to plead with Angela Merkal to support the UK in getting a new deal.

Danny

I think that says quite a lot about Britain since the war.

Posted by: Kemedian 28th Jan 2016, 10:26am

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 27th Jan 2016, 07:18pm) *
Might want to check the history books wink.gif

Nein danke. Alle bücher verbrennen.

QUOTE (ktv @ 27th Jan 2016, 04:13pm) *
the snp and members of the yes side always said they wanted to be an indy country in the eu, just like every other country in the eu.

Why vote at all, ktv? For your part, to abstain could bring Brexit and a second Indyref one vote closer. By voting to remain, you are endorsing the role of the UK in the EU. yes.gif

QUOTE (ktv @ 27th Jan 2016, 04:13pm) *
under the uk system we cannot make our own internal policy without most of it being ok'd by westmonster. while most of the laws from the EU benefit the people here unlike vindictive laws imposed from london.

There's the contradiction in your argument.

Throughout the Indyref, the term 'Unionist' was used derogatively (and still is by some).

In both referendums, you want to make this about big bad Westminster. This time the UK is the nation proposing to become independent and this time you are backing the status quo, whereas last time you voted to leave both Unions.

QUOTE (ktv @ 27th Jan 2016, 04:13pm) *
so instead of bemoaning what happened in a far far away referendum on this thread why dont you tell us why youl be voting yes instead of praising westminster at every approach like you did in the other thread.

I bloody well wish it was far far far far far away, but the SNP has made sure it isn't by making the case for a second Indyref if Scotland votes differently. (Yesterday at PMQs, an SNP MP went on and on about the Indyref. She had to be politely asked by the Speaker to sit back down. So don't give me your crap. Nothing makes the SNP happier, and that shows no sign of ending.)

Let me remind you of the rather straightforward options at this referendum, ktv. There is one vote for EU integration or one vote for UK independence. This is not a repeat of the Indyref, so it's not about praising Westmonster or not as you put it. No-one knows how the UK would fare as an independent nation, besides I am voting to remain so it is the virtues of the EU that I am extolling.

EU Referendum
Remain: pro EU/ anti separation
Leave: anti EU/ pro separation

Yes, last time I was pro UK but that's not an option this time. My fellow Unionist, we are on the same side. There is a contradiction in your arguments, but I won't hold it against you. The promised land of increasing unity is getting closer every day. smile.gif

Posted by: flam 28th Jan 2016, 11:59am

This is the scenario I personally see
(1) If the UK voters decide to leave the EU, then according to Nicola,Scotland will go for a new vote for Independence
(2) Scotland then win their Independence, only to be ruled by Brussels
(3) Therefore Scotland will have to take their quota,s of Migrants/Fishing and Farming regulations, and finally any migrant/Illegals coming through from Calais,will head towards Scotland with the wishes of Big Dave.,as he does not have to obey the rules and regulations of EU, so the final count of migrants ,Illegals call them what you want.will eventually put a large burden on the Scottish economy,no more so than the price of oil..
I would like to see those that voted SNP, ask themselves ,
do they go with Nicola Sturgeon,or do they go with Jim Sillars

Posted by: Betsy2009 28th Jan 2016, 12:17pm

What if the majority of Scots vote to leave the EU? Will Nicola ignore that?

Posted by: Kemedian 28th Jan 2016, 12:44pm

QUOTE (Betsy2009 @ 28th Jan 2016, 12:25pm) *
What if the majority of Scots vote to leave the EU? Will Nicola ignore that?

She ignored the way we voted last time, hence the EU ref is nothing more than a means to get her own way. This historic ref is not worth the bother in its own right, hence the arogance of the SNP position.

So, with her proven track record, yes I believe she would, Betsy.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 28th Jan 2016, 01:31pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 28th Jan 2016, 10:34am) *
Throughout the Indyref, the term 'Unionist' was used derogatively (and still is by some).

My fellow Unionist, we are on the same side. There is a contradiction in your arguments


Oh the irony. laugh.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 28th Jan 2016, 01:34pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 28th Jan 2016, 12:52pm) *
So, with her proven track record, yes I believe she would, Betsy.


It's not often you're right, but you're wrong again. laugh.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 28th Jan 2016, 01:41pm

QUOTE (flam @ 28th Jan 2016, 12:07pm) *
(2) Scotland then win their Independence, only to be ruled by Brussels


I would like to see those that voted SNP, ask themselves ,
do they go with Nicola Sturgeon,or do they go with Jim Sillars


We'd be ruled from Edinburgh, but don't let the facts get in the way of talking nonsense.

Most that voted SNP will make their own minds up.

Posted by: Kemedian 28th Jan 2016, 02:21pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 28th Jan 2016, 01:39pm) *
Oh the irony. laugh.gif

Note, I said "by some", Jagz (i.e. you, not I),

my fellow (European) Unionist.

Posted by: flam 28th Jan 2016, 03:09pm

Is Jim Sillars, just waiting to pounce, to take the SNP mantle of ,of Nicola Sturgeon, I believe he is a stalking horse, any other theories ?

Posted by: JAGZ1876 28th Jan 2016, 04:27pm

QUOTE (flam @ 28th Jan 2016, 03:17pm) *
Is Jim Sillars, just waiting to pounce, to take the SNP mantle of ,of Nicola Sturgeon, I believe he is a stalking horse, any other theories ?


He would have to be a member of the SNP to do that. huh.gif

At 79 i think he might just be over the hill a bit. unsure.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 28th Jan 2016, 04:29pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 28th Jan 2016, 02:29pm) *
Note, I said "by some", Jagz (i.e. you, not I),

my fellow (European) Unionist.


You have missed my point spectacularly. laugh.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 28th Jan 2016, 06:19pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 28th Jan 2016, 04:37pm) *
You have missed my point spectacularly. laugh.gif

I have absolutely no qualms whatsoever about admitting that I'm a Unionist, in the context of this debate, as I was in the last one too.

If you recall, it was you who repeatedly refused to acknowledge that someone could be both a Unionist and a proud Scot. To now be consistent, you would presumably be thinking that I can't call myself a proud Brit either?

It appears to be you who doesn't see the real irony of your own position! eyebrow.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 28th Jan 2016, 07:40pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 28th Jan 2016, 06:27pm) *
If you recall, it was you who repeatedly refused to acknowledge that someone could be both a Unionist and a proud Scot.


You recall wrong (no surprise there) i said no such thing.

Posted by: Kemedian 28th Jan 2016, 11:41pm

Yes, you did. Recall this debate, around this time...

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 10th Sep 2015, 09:15pm) *
What if i just call you what Gordon Brown calls himself, a North Briton? laugh.gif

If you are relenting then it's about time, mate. dry.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 29th Jan 2016, 10:11am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 28th Jan 2016, 11:49pm) *
Yes, you did. Recall this debate, around this time...

If you are relenting then it's about time, mate. dry.gif


Gordon Brown doesn't refer to himself as a Scot, you do.

Unless of course you are Gordon Brown? unsure.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 29th Jan 2016, 12:48pm

The joke still requires work, Jagz. huh.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 29th Jan 2016, 04:27pm

No joke intended, anyway i'm glad you admit i never said you can't be a "Unionist and a proud Scot".

Posted by: flam 30th Jan 2016, 12:01pm

I am a Unionist and a true Scot, just like the millions that died fighting for this country.my Dad was in the HLI but luckily survived, not like a lot of his comrades, you Jagz wants to go back to the days of William Wallace, try and bring your self into the modern world

Posted by: JAGZ1876 30th Jan 2016, 01:31pm

QUOTE (flam @ 30th Jan 2016, 12:09pm) *
I am a Unionist and a true Scot, just like the millions that died fighting for this country.my Dad was in the HLI but luckily survived, not like a lot of his comrades, you Jagz wants to go back to the days of William Wallace, try and bring your self into the modern world



In what way do i want to go back to the day's of William Wallace, and what is a '"true Scot"?

My Father also served with the HLI so can you explain the point you're trying to make?

Posted by: marydee 30th Jan 2016, 08:06pm

Flam doesn't do answers

Posted by: wombat 30th Jan 2016, 09:07pm

QUOTE (marydee @ 30th Jan 2016, 08:14pm) *
Flam doesn't do answers


rolleyes.gif don't think i'm qualified to say what a true scot is marydee

rolleyes.gif but I can tell you what a true scot is'nt thumbup.gif



Posted by: john.mcn 30th Jan 2016, 10:16pm



Maybe he doesn't wear drawers under his kilt wink.gif

Posted by: wombat 30th Jan 2016, 10:24pm

yes.gif thumbup.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 31st Jan 2016, 12:18am

QUOTE (marydee @ 30th Jan 2016, 08:14pm) *
Flam doesn't do answers


You're quite right Mary he doesn't, a point i have made to many a GG unionist, but they still stick to the "throw enough mud and some of it is bound to stick" tactic that most of the country now has the good sense to see through.

And most people stop reading a post when "Braveheart", "Nazi" etc appear. yes.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 31st Jan 2016, 10:22pm

Nice.

Remember Jagz, in this debate you too are a GG Unionist. laugh.gif

Posted by: ktv 1st Feb 2016, 11:05am

Kem have you managed to get your head around the fact that a lot (probably most) people who voted for an indy Scotland voted for an indy Scotland within the EU?

Posted by: Dykejumper 1st Feb 2016, 11:58am

"Should Scotland be an independent country?" was the question.

Posted by: ktv 1st Feb 2016, 12:38pm

QUOTE (Dykejumper @ 1st Feb 2016, 12:06pm) *
"Should Scotland be an independent country?" was the question.


it wasnt about leaving the EU then.

Posted by: Kemedian 1st Feb 2016, 02:55pm

QUOTE (ktv @ 1st Feb 2016, 12:46pm) *
it wasnt about leaving the EU then.

Sturgeon is right about you, when she expresses her concern about people getting potentially confused with two separate campaigns running simultaneously. biggrin.gif

Last time you voted to leave, and that meant leaving the EU as well. Whereas, this time you want to remain, which also means remaining in the UK. Face it, there's a contradiction.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 1st Feb 2016, 03:05pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 31st Jan 2016, 10:30pm) *
Remember Jagz, in this debate you too are a GG Unionist. laugh.gif


Not so, i have yet to make my mind up.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 1st Feb 2016, 03:11pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 1st Feb 2016, 03:03pm) *
Last time you voted to leave, and that meant leaving the EU as well. Whereas, this time you want to remain, which also means remaining in the UK. Face it, there's a contradiction.


I'm sure ktv will reply to you, but Scotland voting YES in the Indy referendum would not have meant us leaving the EU, and when (if) there is a EU referendum Scotland will still be part of the UK, so no contradiction whatsoever.

Posted by: ktv 1st Feb 2016, 03:39pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 1st Feb 2016, 03:03pm) *
Sturgeon is right about you, when she expresses her concern about people getting potentially confused with two separate campaigns running simultaneously. biggrin.gif

haha your the one getting confused between 2 referendums over 2 years apart...
*hint* theyre not the same!!


QUOTE
Last time you voted to leave, and that meant leaving the EU as well. Whereas, this time you want to remain, which also means remaining in the UK. Face it, there's a contradiction.


only the deluded ever though Scotland was going to leave the EU if it became independent.
i want to remain in the EU NOT in the UK and remaining in the EU has no bearing on us being part of the UK.

the only contradiction is your train of thought as per smile.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 1st Feb 2016, 03:46pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 1st Feb 2016, 03:13pm) *
Not so, i have yet to make my mind up.

Back when the question was still should the UK remain, yes or no...

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 24th Jul 2015, 07:45pm) *
As consistent as it gets, i will of course be voting YES yet again. laugh.gif

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 1st Feb 2016, 03:19pm) *
I'm sure ktv will reply to you, but Scotland voting YES in the Indy referendum would not have meant us leaving the EU, and when (if) there is a EU referendum Scotland will still be part of the UK, so no contradiction whatsoever.

Even putting that aspect of the old debate aside, you did appear to recently back the status quo. thumbup.gif #UKinEU

Posted by: Kemedian 1st Feb 2016, 04:07pm

QUOTE (ktv @ 1st Feb 2016, 03:47pm) *
remaining in the EU has no bearing on us being part of the UK.

It's because we voted to remain a part of the UK that Scotland is even having this referendum.

This EU ref is a natural progression on from the Indyref. A vote to remain represents a double-lock on the current greater UK status quo, like it or not. Hence the SNP's initial opposition and the Party's subsequent move to propose another Indyref in the event of a Brexit.

Posted by: ktv 1st Feb 2016, 04:12pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 1st Feb 2016, 04:15pm) *
It's because we voted to remain a part of the UK that Scotland is even having this referendum.


an indy Scotland could have very well had a referendum on membership of the EU after a yes vote, especially if the rUK was having one so your using a crystal ball in saying that.

Posted by: Kemedian 1st Feb 2016, 04:25pm

This EU ref is a natural progression on from the Indyref. A vote to remain represents a double-lock on the current greater UK status quo, like it or not. Hence the SNP's initial opposition and the Party's subsequent move to propose another Indyref in the event of a Brexit.

That was a strategic gamble by the SNP. An unnecessary one, which I think the Party shall regret when it rebounds awkwardly following a positive result for both Unions.

Posted by: JAGZ1876 1st Feb 2016, 06:50pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 1st Feb 2016, 03:54pm) *
Back when the question was still should the UK remain, yes or no...


If a week is a long time in politics then seven months is an eternity, or am i not allowed to reevaluate my position let alone have a change of mind?

Posted by: john.mcn 1st Feb 2016, 07:01pm


The Scottish IndyRef was not about the EU to me, i do think that if Scotland voted YES then mountains would have been moved to make sure membership of the club continued, thats not to say i'm Pro EU i'm just stating what i think would have happened to secure all those waters . I would have wanted a further vote on the EU as well as other clubs like Nato and would have voted for parties who proposed that in a manifesto..
The upcoming ref could be seen to be about the UK reinventing itself, there is still work to be done on the constitutional side of what the UK is and how it should be governed and the EU vote is part of that. It might be that if this referendum is carried out before the UK sorts itself out the public may very likely vote to leave the EU, which i'm very happy with.

Posted by: DannyH 1st Feb 2016, 11:43pm

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 1st Feb 2016, 03:19pm) *
I'm sure ktv will reply to you, but Scotland voting YES in the Indy referendum would not have meant us leaving the EU, and when (if) there is a EU referendum Scotland will still be part of the UK, so no contradiction whatsoever.


Hello my old pal Jagz

You have got me back on the EU again! Scotland is not a member of the EU. The UK is. So if the Yes vote for Independence had been successful, Scotland would have to applied for EU membership. One of the problems the SNP faced was currency. We don't use the Euro, so we woudn't have been entitiled to use the Euro. I voted for Independence, but the EU is a different issue.

Regards

Danny

Posted by: JAGZ1876 2nd Feb 2016, 12:10am

QUOTE (DannyH @ 1st Feb 2016, 11:51pm) *
Hello my old pal Jagz

You have got me back on the EU again! Scotland is not a member of the EU. The UK is. So if the Yes vote for Independence had been successful, Scotland would have to applied for EU membership. One of the problems the SNP faced was currency. We don't use the Euro, so we woudn't have been entitiled to use the Euro. I voted for Independence, but the EU is a different issue.

Regards

Danny


You're right Danny my old pal, the EU is a different issue, the rest of your post is a moot point.

Posted by: Kemedian 2nd Feb 2016, 12:10am

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 1st Feb 2016, 06:58pm) *
If a week is a long time in politics then seven months is an eternity, or am i not allowed to reevaluate my position let alone have a change of mind?

Call it what you like, I call it convenient. eyebrow.gif

You may not have too long left (probably far less time than you want) to decide.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35456633

Posted by: JAGZ1876 2nd Feb 2016, 09:54am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 2nd Feb 2016, 12:18am) *
Call it what you like, I call it convenient. eyebrow.gif


laugh.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 2nd Feb 2016, 05:05pm

Who said the PM wasn't in favour of membership?

We don't need another lengthy Political debate, do we?

Such a spirit of compromise would have benefited the Indyref, in my opinion. Hopefully the EU Heads of State will agree later in the month, and allow us a quick referendum. smile.gif

QUOTE (Donald Tusk, President of the European Council @ 1st Feb, 2016)
Keeping the unity of the European Union is the biggest challenge for all of us and so it is the key objective of my mandate. It is in this spirit that I put forward a proposal for a new settlement of the United Kingdom within the EU. To my mind it goes really far in addressing all the concerns raised by Prime Minister Cameron. The line I did not cross, however, were the principles on which the European project is founded.

I deeply believe that our community of interests is much stronger than what divides us. To be, or not to be together, that is the question which must be answered not only by the British people in a referendum, but also by the other 27 members of the EU in the next two weeks.

This has been a difficult process and there are still challenging negotiations ahead. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. I am convinced that the proposal is a good basis for a compromise. It could not have been drafted without the close and good cooperation of the European Commission. In order to facilitate this process the Commission also made political declarations that are included in this package.

Let me briefly refer to all the four baskets of the proposal.

On economic governance, the draft Decision of the Heads sets out principles to ensure mutual respect between the Member States taking part in further deepening of the Economic and Monetary Union and those which do not. By doing that we can pave the way for the further integration within the euro area while safeguarding the rights and competences of non-participating Member States.

The respect for these principles is backed up by a draft Decision establishing a mechanism that while giving necessary reassurances on the concerns of non-euro area Member States, cannot constitute a veto nor delay urgent decisions. The exact conditions for triggering this mechanism remain to be further discussed.

On competitiveness, the draft Decision of the Heads, together with a more detailed European Council Declaration and a draft Commission Declaration, will set out our commitment to increase efforts to enhance competitiveness. We will regularly assess progress in simplifying legislation and reducing burden on business so that red tape is cut.

On sovereignty, the proposed Decision of the Heads recognises that in light of the United Kingdom's special situation under the Treaties, it is not committed to further political integration. It also reinforces respect for subsidiarity, and I propose that the Member States discontinue the consideration of a draft legislative act where a number of national parliaments object to it on the grounds of subsidiarity, unless the concerns raised can be accommodated. The importance of respecting the opt-out regime of Protocols 21 and 22, as well as national security responsibilities is also underlined.

On social benefits and free movement, we need to fully respect the current treaties, in particular the principles of freedom of movement and non-discrimination. Therefore the proposed solution to address the UK concerns builds on the clarification of the interpretation of current rules, including a draft Commission Declaration on a number of issues relating to better fighting abuse of free movement.

The draft Decision of the Heads notes, in particular, the Commission's intention to propose changes to EU legislation as regards the export of child benefits and the creation of a safeguard mechanism to respond to exceptional situations of inflow of workers from other Member States. A draft Commission Declaration also relates to this mechanism. This approach, as well as the exact duration of the application of such a mechanism need to be further discussed at our level.

Most of the substance of this proposal takes the form of a legally binding Decision of the Heads of State or Governments. We should also be prepared to discuss the possible incorporation of the substance of a few elements covered by the Decision into the Treaties at the time of their next revision.

Our Sherpas and Permanent Representatives will meet on Friday this week to have the first discussion of the proposal. The clear objective is to have an agreement of all 28 at the February European Council. To succeed we will all need to compromise. To fail would be compromising our common future.

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/02/02-letter-tusk-proposal-new-settlement-uk/

Posted by: john.mcn 2nd Feb 2016, 06:51pm


TLDR;

Cameron does a deal with EU bosses who now have to take it to the other members where any one of them could veto it... If it passes then cameron can go to the people and offer a referendum... Go back to a common market and even i'll vote to stay in..

Posted by: Dykejumper 2nd Feb 2016, 06:59pm

The British people have been sold a Euro pup before,lets hope they dont buy another.

Posted by: Kemedian 3rd Feb 2016, 01:33pm

Reading past the front page laugh.gif, which is actually about immigration, there is sign of good progress towards a slightly better Europe.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/6902058/David-Cameron-claims-vicxtory-over-EU-sovereignty.html

55% say no thanks.
Red card.
End of. Sorted.

That's Democracy. (Or, so the theory goes, in many places).


Don't panic!



Posted by: Dykejumper 4th Feb 2016, 11:58am

From the Fench paper Le Monde:
“It’s all a sham”

Arnaud Leparmentier of French Daily Le Monde comments on the deal, “The show can begin. David Cameron’s match against the Europeans, to persuade the Brits to stay in the EU, gets under way…It’s a match, of course. But it’s a wrestling match. It’s all a sham. [People] pretend to be in pain, but they are complicit. One makes noise, but one doesn’t solve anything in substance…This wrestling match must flatter the Brits’ pride, so that they are persuaded not to choose the open sea.”

Meanwhile, Florentin Collomp, the London correspondent for Le Figaro is misses the point of trying to reform the EU, leading with the headline, “In Brussels, Cameron has first and foremost tried to save his skin.”
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Now of course we will have Cameron and La Sturgeon both arguing that we are 'better together' in the EU
delicious irony.

Posted by: Dykejumper 4th Feb 2016, 11:59am

From the Fench paper Le Monde:
“It’s all a sham”

Arnaud Leparmentier of French Daily Le Monde comments on the deal, “The show can begin. David Cameron’s match against the Europeans, to persuade the Brits to stay in the EU, gets under way…It’s a match, of course. But it’s a wrestling match. It’s all a sham. [People] pretend to be in pain, but they are complicit. One makes noise, but one doesn’t solve anything in substance…This wrestling match must flatter the Brits’ pride, so that they are persuaded not to choose the open sea.”

Meanwhile, Florentin Collomp, the London correspondent for Le Figaro is misses the point of trying to reform the EU, leading with the headline, “In Brussels, Cameron has first and foremost tried to save his skin.”
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now of course we will have Cameron and La Sturgeon both arguing that we are 'better together' in the EU
delicious irony.

Posted by: carmella 4th Feb 2016, 06:32pm

Aye, funny in tit that we're better together but only in the EU.

Bollox to use a word from the vocabulary of ktv.