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Glasgow Boards/Forums _ Sport & Leisure _ The Beautiful Game

Posted by: weementor 4th Aug 2003, 07:29am


England claims it gave the world The Beautiful Game. However, England is wrong. Their brand of football was kick and rush as opposed to pass and move - and it was a foreign legion of Scots who taught the world to play

According to research by football historians, there would be no modern game without the contribution of a bold generation of Scots.

Scottish colonialists, sailors, merchants and teachers were responsible for introducing The Beautiful Game to every corner of the Earth.

And although the Scottish game has lost its way, the football that is now played in Brazil, Argentina and Germany has its roots in a classic pass-and-move football style that was `Made In Scotland'.

Richard McBrearty, a historian at the Scottish Football Museum in Hampden, has been researching Scotland's world roots for the museum's Scots Away exhibit.

And he dismisses claims by our neighbours south of the border that it was they who gave the game to the world.

Richard says: "It's claimed that football was invented in England, but we now know that is not the case and the modern game definitely came from north of the border.

"There is historical evidence of the game being played up here as far back as 1424, but it probably goes back even further.

"The birth of the modern game was the Scotland-England match in Glasgow in 1872 - up until then, the English had played a hybrid game of rugby and football as we know it.

"There was no goalkeeper, no set number of players for each side, there was limited use of hands and no forward passing.

"It was only the Scottish game which developed these rules which have become part of the modern game, and it was the Scottish pass and run game which spread throughout the world.

"The English style was very individual, with lots of dribbling with the ball, but teams like Queen's Park used the pass much more widely. And it was that style which was widely copied because it was more attractive and successful."

The English game only changed in the late 1800s, when major teams down south started to pack their squads with Scots.

These original Anglo-Scots players were quickly lauded and nicknamed `The Scotch Professors', the first Liverpool side of 1892 were nicknamed The Macs, with 11 Scots in the line-up, while the Preston North End `Invincibles' side of 1889 included eight Scots.

And Jock Hamilton, one of the biggest Scots stars of the English game at the time, went on to help create the greatest footballing legacy in the world - in Brazil.

Strange as it may seem, there may never have been a Pele, a Zico or a Ronaldo if it hadn't been for three Scots.

Football was started there in 1894 by Charles Miller, who was born in Brazil to a Scottish father, and who helped found the Paulista League in 1901.

However, Miller preferred the English-style kick, rush and dribble football - it was the arrival of two Scots-born men that created Brazilian football as we know it.

When Paisley textile firm J & P Coats opened a thread mill in Sao Paulo in 1907, workers formed The Scottish Wanderers, who were one of most successful and popular teams in the league's early days.

Their star player was winger Archie McLean, who went on to play for the Sao Paulo state team, and was nicknamed `O Veadinho', meaning `the little deer'.

HIS fast and tricky ball control became the template for the Brazilian style, but it was Jock Hamilton who really impressed the Samba stars, as the first professional football coach in the country, in 1907.

Hamilton, from Ayr, was part of the Scottish exiles who ran Fulham in the early 1900s as coach and star player, and was poached by Brazilian side Paulistano to help promote and shape the game in the Amazon. He is still remembered as founding what is incorrectly known as the Systema Ingleza (English System) they still use, because the locals didn't know the difference between Scotland and England.

It was also a Scot who is credited with the birth of football in Brazil's greatest rivals - Argentina.

Glasgow-born Alexander Watson Hutton was a teacher at the St Andrew's School in Buenos Aires in the 1890s and started an Association Football side in 1882, earning the honorary title of `Father of Argentinian Football'.

The Scottish influence even extended to Argentina's 1986 World Cup-winning side. It included Jose Brown, a direct descendant of 1825 Scots emigrant James Brown and his all-conquering Brown dynasty, who made up much of the Argentina team in the early 1900s.

While Scotland have never been past the first round of the World Cup, the first team to ever win the trophy, Uruguay, owe some of the credit to the teachings of a Scottish railroad engineer.

Glasgow-born John Harley worked in the capital city of Montevideo and played for local side Penarol before becoming a coach.

He adopted the classic Scottish pass-and-move style, and his precise tactics won him the nickname "the Technician", as well as revolutionising the national game and ultimately leading to their 1930 World Cup triumph.

Canada's first club, Carlton FC of Toronto, was founded by a group of Scots in 1876 and was even affiliated to the SFA, while Scots were even more instrumental in the early football successes of the USA.

Dozens of Scottish league players - among the best in the world at the time - were invited to help form the US league in the 1920s, with the result that the SFA tried to ban the recruiting process, described as `The American Menace'.

Saturday's Record told the story of the Scots captain and coaches involved in the historic 1950 World Cup win over England, but 20 years earlier, five Scottish players starred for the USA in the tournament, alongside Scots coach Bob Millar.

Andy Auld, Jimmy Gallagher, Bart McGhee, Jim Brown and Sandy Wood were part of the USA team which made it to the 1930 semi-finals after either emigrating with their families or having been poached by the American league from Scots teams.

Scottish influence even spread as far as China - Glaswegian John Prentice's team, Shanghai Marine Engineers Institute FC, were affiliated to the SFA in 1888.

Back in Europe, ex-Celtic player Johnny Madden coached in Czechoslovakia in 1905, George Smith MacGregor helped inspire an early version of the German Bundesliga, and English coach Jimmy Hogan took Jock Hamilton's pass- and-move tactics to Austria and Hungary.

Historian Richard adds: "The tragedy is that after spreading passing football to every corner of the world, we lost our way.

"We taught the world to play the game, and then forgot how to do it ourselves."

Brian Mciver...for the Daily Record(4/8/2003)

Posted by: bartom 4th Aug 2003, 03:42pm

wee mentor thank you very much for that I always felt that our tanner ba' players were far superior to those south of the border unfortunately we seem to have lost that skill, when I was home about 3 years ago I noticed that most of the places where we used to play fitba had signs up forbidding playing on them also kids can't play in the streets anymore because of cars I think that has a lot to do with the loss of skills, whereas in Africa, asia and sth america there are a lot of very poor people who do what we did as kids, make balls out of old newspapers or use tennis balls and that gives them the grounding in the control of the ball rolleyes.gif regards Tommy

Posted by: Mary 12th Aug 2003, 12:06pm

Thanks for that! It's great to get on here and find such interesting information smile.gif

Posted by: thebardau 13th Aug 2003, 05:35am

This made excellent reading, wee mentor, & so I'm glad I actually poked my head into the Sports & Leisure forum. I didn't realise that Scotland has "lost the way" & i'll have to find out what this means. Reading bartom's post, it's hard for me to imagine a Scotland where wee boys aren't practising their skill on every available bit of ground.

Posted by: jimmyd 13th Aug 2003, 07:46am

Whit wis it Jackie Gleeson used to say.'' Oh how sweet it is "!!. Nice to know Wee Mentor ,thanks for that.I agree with Bartom ,it is a shame the kids can't get to develop their natural ability,also there are too many high tech things around now .Lets face it when we were wee boys,whit else could ye dae.Playing in the streets was it.

Posted by: thebardau 13th Aug 2003, 07:54am

And in the back courts too, didn't matter where you were, at home or visiting someone - you looked out the window anywhere, & there were always wee boys [& some not so wee], heidin' ba's of all kinds, up against the wall. Hour upon hour, some of them. Tennis balls, whatever. No wonder they were so good. I just assumed that this was still happening, silly me. The only sport I ever watch [sometimes] on the telly is soccer - am I allowed to call it that here?

Posted by: jimmyd 14th Aug 2003, 12:36am

Aye Bard,ye can call it that,cause it is too confusing with all these codes,Rugby Union,rugby leaugue,Aussie rules,all under the banner of football.I am hoping to be
on Satellite soon,so will be immersed in the ."Beautiful Game" cannae wait.

Posted by: thebardau 15th Aug 2003, 11:34am

So will someone please be kind enough to explain what "Scotland losing the way" means - I'm serious.

Posted by: jimmyd 15th Aug 2003, 02:05pm

Bear with me now Bard,I have had a few o the grape.Any body that wants to correct me here ,please feel free to do so.
As you have read in previous posts Bard,Scottish players were sought after by the English teams,mainly for their skills and never say die qualities.That spirit that imbues the Scottish character. We always qualified for World Cup and European Championship finals. mind you never progressed very far.Nowadays ,with the influx of foriegn players,the young talent is not being recognised by the Scottish clubs.This has resulted in a dirth of quality players being available to play for Scotland. result is that we can't field a team of home grown talent ,able to compete on the world stage.Mind you Italy are sufferintg the same problem,as are Spain and other European nations.
So what you are hearing is, that for a nation,that has given the world the game as we know it, we have lost our way in terms of producing the fine natural talent, able to compete with the best in the world.
Mind you ,you and I now live in Australia,which is producing world class players ,so augers well for Aussie ,but not for dear old Scotland.. Did ah dae awright,WeeMentor ,Bartom ,Hubert ,Linzeh, an w aw the rest o you Haggis Bashers. PS ah'm no used to being this serious for so long .. unsure.gif unsure.gif

Posted by: thebardau 15th Aug 2003, 02:38pm

That was expressed very lucidly, jimmy. [Cheers! & here's tae the guardian geese - mine's a Ballantine's the noo.] So does this mean that the hierarchy or powers-that-be in the various clubs, are spending big bucks on transfer fees for star foreign players - & not fostering young Scottish talent? Sorry I'm so ignorant about this, but I find the sports columns boring [apologies all!] & prefer instead to watch a decent game on the telly. Yet this assumption I'm making here surely can't be right - cos surely if it were, then Scotland would still be a presence in the World Cup?
[haggis-bashers - priceless!]

Posted by: jimmyd 15th Aug 2003, 03:18pm

You have got it in wan Bard, too many foriegn players an no enough .,weans fae the back courts . sad.gif

Posted by: jock 22nd Aug 2003, 02:25pm

Maybe what we need is a return of the tenements so that the weans will have back courts and closes to play in. I still remember playing heid the (tennis) ba' in the close. You could even play when it rained!

Posted by: hubert 31st Aug 2003, 01:14am

Unfortunately Scottish football is at a very low ebb, our national team will be playing a couple of games in a week or two, sure hope they do well!
Watched Celtic and Livingston Saturday 5-1 Celtic, my wife came home from work later, and I said Livinston were terrible, and she said arent they the bottom of the league, well I didnt say what I wanted to say, for I thought it best to be polite, and with all due respect to the other Scottish teams, I said, there really are only two teams in Scotland and all the rest ARE the bottom of the league!
Didny work, she right away said you know what I mean, smart ass? LMAO rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Catherine 31st Aug 2003, 01:19am

Yo ya auld grump tongue.gif
Kin ah jist say.....anither ten odd years an they'll be beggin ma boys tae play fur Scotland..Ye heard it here furst laugh.gif
Surely tae God Martin's awa tae bed noo an ah kin blether!!

Posted by: hubert 31st Aug 2003, 01:46am

Yes they would be eligible for Scotland, but Canada has a team too?
Theres a good midfielder that was born in Canada, plays in the Bundus league in Germany, and is in the England national team, canny mind his name, so go and get me is name, that wull gie ye somethin tae dae?

Posted by: Catherine 31st Aug 2003, 02:02am

Aye....well ah might tongue.gif Haud oan laugh.gif

Posted by: Catherine 31st Aug 2003, 02:08am

Och ye mean Lee Owen Hargreaves??? Born 20th January 198tywan....plays wae Buyern Munich?... Peesacake tongue.gif
Naw....Hubert when ah read these posts Scotland NEEDS ma boys laugh.gif

Posted by: hubert 31st Aug 2003, 02:43am

Bayern Munich, Celtic get them in the Champions league, should be fun!
Hardgreaves thats him, a good player!

Posted by: Catherine 31st Aug 2003, 02:52am

Martins awa tae bed ya auld grump......feel free tae elabarate wae a natter why don't ye tongue.gif He'll no bump us aff till the morra laugh.gif

Posted by: hubert 31st Aug 2003, 03:09am

I have never been in the new chat thing, its kind of scary for me, got to go and e mail some people, not being anti social jist will talk later?
Very busy these days, and bragging, fitba the morra and painted the french doors at the back inside the hoose!
Saw Celtic tae, daein hudrids of things?

Posted by: linzeh 31st Aug 2003, 05:43am

QUOTE (thebardau @ 15th Aug 2003, 08:51 AM)
So will someone please be kind enough to explain what "Scotland losing the way" means - I'm serious.

i'm not sure who was 1st to do it....but when the managers decided punting up the park was the way to get by.. that was the beginning of the end for the "tanner ba" players.....and has left us chasing our tails ever since....solid defenders..some quality mid-fielders.....but no Law..Baxter..etc...etc..

Can anyone tell me the last out n out scottish forward to make it in one of the bigger leagues??..Serie A..spanish league??...EPL???

Duncan Ferguson??.....never reached his potential...

forgive my memory but i'm thinking we'd have to go back to Dalglish??

so my answer is..this was happening long b-4 the influx of "non-scottish" players...

Posted by: Tusker 11th Sep 2003, 04:54pm

This isn't going to win me any votes in the popularity contest, but...

Scotland's national fitba' team didn't "lose the way" because they didn't know the way to begin with! If you look at things honestly, with an unbiased eye, and ask yourself "When was the last time Scotland was regarded as a 'World Power' in soccer?" you'd have to answer, "Never." Scotland's team simply doesn't rate on the world stage. Last time I looked at the world rankings (about a year ago I think) they were rated as 54th or 57th in the world, behind teams like Bahrain, the Outer Hebrides, Cyprus and the Chinese Province of Huan Nang, for God's sake. Have they improved quite a bit? Where do they stand now? 49th? 44th?

Yet every time there's a World Cup (or Euro Cup, now) the Scottish newspapers trumpet the opinion of some posturing blowhards, who have to sell newspapers -- so they write that this may be Scotland's cup (Ha! Ha!) because they have a new manager/new players/new trainer/new outlook/new boots/new strip. Nothing changes. This scenario has played out repeatedly since I was a kid in the 1950's -- and was probably played out time and time again, long before that too!

Yet people fall in line every time behind the Pied Piper, and expectations are raised once again, only to be cruelly dashed when reality hits and the Scots players come up against some 3rd rate national team who defeat the "New" Tartan Terrors very handily. As long as Scotland can beat England occasionally -- then we're back on the road to becoming great again. Nobody ever asks, "But when was the last time we were great?" And nobody ever asks, "If 3rd rate teams can beat us -- what does that make us?"

I don't have a magical solution to this problem, and I don't know all or any of the answers -- so please don't ask. I'm only trying to remove blinkers and point out the harsh reality of the situation. Scotland are NOT a world class team, never have been, and may never be. Just because they're Scottish doesn't automatically mean they're great, and that they were just unlucky not to win. Is anyone else sick to death of hearing excuses for poor performances -- or am I the only one?

That may not be news.....but it is reality (to paraphrase)

Posted by: jimmyd 12th Sep 2003, 05:14am

Ye know whit Tusker ,you are dead right,as was Linzeh in his post, {Pick yersel up Lindsay ,I am agreeing wi you }.We tend to get carried a way with the fantasy,and forget the reality.I remember the big whinge was that they had to many Anglo's,in the team.So some manager played mostly home based players ,and we still got gubbed.Mind you good or bad ,it is still great to see them run oan the park.See hope rains supreme in the heart of the optimist.

Posted by: whyteinch 12th Sep 2003, 08:27am

Happy days .......

The world’s oldest national trophy: the Scottish Football Association Challenge Cup was made in 1873. Sixteen teams entered the competition, which was won by Queen’s Park FC, who beat Clydesdale 2-0 in the 1874 final.Today the winning team is presented with the original trophy, but take home an exact replica.

Championship of the World trophy: in 1888 Renton of Dunbartonshire, the Scottish Cup holders, beat West Bromwich Albion of Birmingham, the FA Cup winners, in a match dubbed as the ‘Championship of the United Kingdom and the World’. In appalling weather Renton won 4-1


Posted by: Tusker 12th Sep 2003, 11:04am

Whyteinch -- 1874 Scottish Champs and 1888 U.K. and "World" Champs???
......Aye, but what have they done *lately*? lol...

Posted by: weementor 13th Sep 2003, 09:50am

Tusker.... just a wee bit of irony.

Posted by: jimmyd 17th Sep 2003, 01:37pm

Well said WeeMentor,an how are the guid folk in Nulson these days??./

Posted by: hubert 22nd Sep 2003, 05:08am

Football has changed alot since it first began, and will continue to do so, no matter how a fan may wish it to be?
Myself I have reasons for hoping Celtic go to play their league and other competitions in England, with Glasgow still being their home base?
Eg, Celtic lined up against Bayern Munich last Wednesday, and there was one Scot in the lineup, Jackie McNamara.
In fact I believe Rangers lined up against Stuutgart the same day, and they had no Scottish players in their lineup?

Posted by: weementor 22nd Sep 2003, 07:01am

Hi ...Jimmyd..... have you some family in 'Nulson' ... Docherty perchance...Neilston guid folk doing fine...however, this can't be said about the Neilston Juniors.

Bobby McCance are you out there..drop a wee email


Posted by: hubert 22nd Sep 2003, 02:14pm

Got your PM Ian thanks, you should post that in the thread its good, and I agree with some of your sentiments, however eg, if there was a ban or limits on foreign players in Scotland Celtic and Rangers can at present forget of even trying to compete in the CL.
Football has taken off in places like never before, and the talent is improving, I am like you a fan of Scotland but unlike you I dont get to the games?
I honestly dont think there is any system, that would change things in Scotland to improve and compete with the rest of the world in international football, cause if you interfere with the club teams, well I am afraid Scotland would not even be on the map?
One big factor is population, yes there are teams that are better than Scotland with less population, but most countries have many more players to choose from?
Weementor its no often you see the goalie being the smallest in defense?
Are you in that team?

Posted by: iancameron 23rd Sep 2003, 07:48am

Thanks for your reply Hubert, and I agree with you that football is on the increse in other area,s of the World, but in fact it is on the decrease in England, at grassroots level that is. Here in the Plymouth area in Devon we had over 80 teams playing non pro football on a Saturday, and we had two Sunday leagues with about 60 team each, that was around 10 years ago. Today I have 36 teams on a Saturday, and one Sunday league with 42 teams. There are numerous reasons for this,ie, Saturday is now for most a normal working day, the cost of running a team has gone up, especially for those teams who use Council pitches and last but not least there is no advancement for these players. As I said, 10 years ago you would get several pro club scouts coming to matches to watch local players, that is.nt the case today as most scouts will be at youth matches, and when I say youth I am talking about from 11 up to 15 years of age, and unfortunatly the player who is in the late teens, early twentys has passed his sell by date ( apart from a few acceptions). This situation has had a knock-on effect all the way up to pro,s. The main growth in football is in the African nations, where poverty has made the determination of their up and coming footballers more determined to make the grade. I can remember as a young boy, my grandfather took me every week to watch our local club in Pollokshaws, The Pollok, and remember Bobby Collins and Bobby Evans moving from Pollok to Celtic for a transfer fee of £50 each, this being the maximum at the time. This would not happen now as both of them would have been too old. In my opinion those in charge of the national game should bring back wage capping, this would deter foreign players coming over for the money, it would also give clubs the benifit of using that money saved in wages to go on better facilities in recruiting and training of home grown youngsters. Also if we had a national training school we could improve the ability of all our senior clubs youngsters, not just the few who have the cash. Finally I would say that football is a peoples sport, and no matter what team we support, there is nothing better than to see our national team do well.

Ian Cameron

Posted by: Tusker 23rd Sep 2003, 03:20pm

Much of what iancameron says makes a lot of sense with regard to the state of the game today in the U.K. Hubert also points out that on both Celtic & Rangers teams "home-grown" talent is almost non- existent. Other U.K. clubs are equally guilty of hoping to succeed by signing high-priced imports to the detriment of the "local" player.

But what price success? Kill the game in the U.K. so U.K.-based teams can win the Champions League, using foreign players? Will the fans appreciate this? Will they follow teams that don't have a single U.K. player on board?

The simple answer is a resounding "Yes". Because most U.K. soccer fans don't think about the club game on a national level. They're only interested in seeing the team they support win European cups and championships -- and to hell with all of the other U.K. teams. If their club has to sign eleven exorbitantly-priced foreign players to do so -- then so be it! If that wins cups while killing soccer for U.K. players, then that's just tough. So long as "their" team wins.

A salary cap unfortunately won't help in the slightest. Let's face it, would any of the British players now employed by foreign clubs return to play for U.K. teams if they were forced to accept lower wages and play on a "lower-class" team? (And with the exception of a few teams, most U.K. clubs are considered lower-class on the European circuit whether you're prepared to accept that fact or not. I'm not prepared to argue this point.) Even worse, would future rising stars in the U.K. remain in a salary-controlled market, or would they take the opportunity to make more money and play on a "better" team elsewhere? A salary cap isn't the answer.

Also, take a look at the popular sports in North America, if you want to see the face of U.K. soccer in coming years. Pro basketball, baseball and ice hockey all have numerous foreign players -- despite the immense size of the population base in the U.S. And the U.S. mainland apparently can't even provide enough talented U.S. citizens to play their National Sport at a major-league level -- despite the immense population base and the fact that they have an extremely well-organized baseball system from the kindergarten level up. They're now importing Japanese players, and the Pro Leagues are filled with players of many other nationalities. The same applies to basketball and ice hockey.

The average sports fan will support "their" team. It doesn't matter if they live in St. Louis, New York, Manchester or Glasgow. And if their team is staffed by high-priced Ethiopians, Tiawanese, Hindustani's and Eskimo's -- who cares?? So long as their team wins.

The U.K. soccer clubs are faced with a Catch-22 situation. If they don't sign foreign players, they can't compete against the European teams, who scoop up most of the good players by offering them a king's ransom. If U.K. clubs can't compete in Europe, they don't make the money they need to sign, or keep, expensive foreign players to maintain or "improve" the club. And if U.K teams DO sign foreign players, then U.K. players have to be displaced to make room. This in turn causes a trickle-down effect, in that young U.K. players are no longer considered for positions on professional teams, unless of course they're truly outstanding. And the Dennis Law's, Jim Baxter's and Ian Beckham's of the UK soccer world are few and far between. So foreign players are then signed in an effort to "fill the gaps" and maintain a high enough standard to compete at a European level.

It's a never-ending circle and the whole crux of the matter comes down to one thing and one thing only. MONEY! The club boards want it, the players want more of it, and the club's shareholders want it. Soccer's a business, plain and simple, and fans are just a means of making money. What do they want for their money? Team success at home and in Europe. To compete in Europe you have to pay higher wages to attract quality players. That takes money. Money is earned by competing in the lucrative European theatre. How do you earn the right to compete there? By winning at home, and this requires signing quality players. What does this take? Money! How do you earn money. By competing in European........Whoops! Here we go again....

It's really simple. The days of yesteryear are gone. Big business is the face of today's soccer, whether we like it or not. Weaker clubs will fold, or amalgamate with stronger clubs. If smaller clubs do survive, they'll probably end up playing in the non-professional Junior leagues with Petershill and Maryhill. We may not like it. But that's the future....

Posted by: hubert 24th Sep 2003, 06:11am

I sure would like to reply in detail to both your posts Ian and Tusker, but alas I dont have the knowledge or memory to do so, where I would make much sense?
Yes Bobby Collins did play for Pollock, an uncle of mine on my mothers side played against him, and I was told he played him oot the game? Well Collins to me was a star in fitba at the highest level!
Even the national game has changed immensely, there are many players on teams throughout the world that were not born in their respective countries. I dont need to go into details here?
So in essence there is a correlation to club and country?
Yes there are many fans that dont give a hoot about their country team, then also for many years there have been many players that for one reason or another have refused to wear the jersey of their country, including comments like its the club that pays my wages. Something I dont agree with, the country should have certain rights to players?
Ian you say football is a peoples sport, lots of people cant afford the price of a ticket. And I doubt this will change?
Scottish players continue to go to England for the money, and I dont blame them, what happens in alot of cases, they dont get into the first team, so what chance do they get to play for Scotland?
Tusker you are decrying the average fan, in regards to club versus country, I dfont disagree, but take Celtic for example their fans want new signings, McFadden could have been one of them, and stayed in Scotland, but no, Celtics board inmy opinion are the problem, fans really dont have much say in anything, look who are buying into teams, not fans but money people from everywhere but the country of the club?
This will continue, fitba is no longer a sport its business!
Your comments on the US sports is a good analogy, but although America is huge in population, they have and are continuing to expand teams in all sports to all cities, this is also going to continue, again its big business.
When I came to Canada in 59 there were only 6 major hockey teams, dont know how many there is now? Same with the growth of baseball and basketball, also the average family cant afford the cost of going to these games?
The world is getting smaller, noo theres an understatement, look at the work and companies that people once worked for, and where are the jobs, its in another thread elsewhere in the GG, Tumchie touches on it and others, in other threads?
I remember working Saturday morning in Scotland regular shift, then that was stopped, now work weeks all over the world are not regular but staggered, good lord I am glad I was born when I was?
Och lives no bad, its great being retired, living a life o Riley.
Jist a couple of other things coming to mind, Englands national team coach is Swedish and oors is German! LoL
And Dunfermline have artificial turf, jist heard Hibs want to get it tae!

Posted by: Tusker 24th Sep 2003, 05:37pm

QUOTE: "Tusker you are decrying the average fan, in regards to club versus country, I dfont disagree,...."

......Well...I think I'm only stating the obvious, so I'm glad we agree on this.

QUOTE: "...but take Celtic for example their fans want new signings, McFadden could have been one of them, and stayed in Scotland, but no, Celtics board inmy opinion are the problem,...."

......But Celtic's board only reflects the overall face of modern-day soccer. They can't dictate the path the soccer world will follow, outside their own club, although they're part of the herd heading along that path. The fans want new signings? Yes, but who do they want? Alonzo Bertolini, Jean-Claude L'Arousse, Dagmar Olafson or Tommy McGregor? The fans are every bit as guilty as the board of directors in adopting the "if it's foreign, it must be better" line of thought. And incidentally, if the board of directors don't give the fans what they want, the club starts losing market share -- and that's why board executives are voted out of a job by the shareholders. Lower fan base = lower income = lower shareholder dividends, and of course, less money to sign expensive players. It all revolves around MONEY.

QUOTE: " really dont have much say in anything,..."

.....Without the fan base, the clubs don't make MONEY -- which is the prime reason for their existence these days. Would a large company pay let's say Alloa or Stirling Albion as much money to wear their logo on their team jersey, as they would pay Celtic or Rangers? How about in-ground advertising? How about fees paid to televise games? If your team can only draw a support of a few thousand fans every week, you're also not going to sell a lot of programs/souvenirs etc compared to the clubs with the larger fan base.....MONEY!

QUOTE: "....look who are buying into teams, not fans but money people from everywhere but the country of the club?"

Agreed. But soccer clubs aren't run to provide an opportunity for "the wee boay doon the road" to put on a fitba' display in front of his worshipping parents. They're a business, and like any other business that requires the influx of large amounts of capital, a certain financial return is expected on the capital injected. Cups and championships are purely incidental, from a business standpoint. They'd be totally unimportant if the same amount of cash could be generated without them. And there's absolutely nothing stopping you or I from taking over Celtic, Rangers or any other club, and running it the way we think best. Other than money -- or lack of it. The same applies to IBM or Microsoft or any other business.

I'm sure the boardmembers on any club don't think, "Maybe we should offer as much money as it takes to sign Beckham. I think the fans would like that." The investors may love the game, but they also don't invest their money with the idea of losing a few hundred thousand quid every year. If they put their money in the bank, at least they'd be sure of earning some interest. So they want as high a return as possible on their investment.

So ideally, the team wins trophies, the games are televised and TV rights are sold, the advertisers pay more, more fans pay higher prices to attend games and buy food, drinks and souvenirs at the concessions - so more money can be charged for concession/souvenir/team shirt rights. etc. etc.

As I said...It all boils down to one thing. MONEY! If someone can figure out how to play eleven U.K. players on a U.K. team, keep the fans, players and shareholders happy, win lots of domestic and European trophies and make money as well -- they could name the club they want to manage. Sell star players or fail to win trophies, and excuses can be, and are made. But remove money from the equation and the whole thing collapses.....Soccer is a business. If a business can't make money, it collapses....

Posted by: hubert 25th Sep 2003, 06:13am

I have mentioned this before, a friend of mine in Toronto, called me on the phone when I was living in San Diego, this was the early 70s, he was complaining about Rangers signing English players, him being a Gers fan, well I told him then, if the player came from Timbuktu, or outer Mongolia, and was good he would play on my team, well I still feel that way!
Football wont go back to what it was, I even remember in the 50s fans complaining about Anglos playing for the national team,
I accept the present conditions. cause frankly its the way its going to be.
If Celtic need to sign foreingers, to win trophies, I will accept that.
Heck I have said often enough Celtic get out of Scottish fitba!
Also Rangers are in big debt I believe, they also won the treble, good for them!
I want Celtic to win the treble this season, if it takes debt, thats Ok by me!

Posted by: Tusker 25th Sep 2003, 12:15pm

"I accept the present conditions. cause frankly its the way its going to be."

.....Yes. Unfortunately, I think you're right.

"If Celtic need to sign foreingers, to win trophies, I will accept that."

So if you accept this, then you have to be prepared to accept the eventual demise of football for the greater majority of U.K. players, as most teams will be composed almost entirely if not totally, of foreign players. And the fact that any good U.K. players won't be seen playing for U.K. teams, as they'll be playing for European teams. So "Scottish" football will exist in name only. It's almost like moving Athletico Bilbao to Glasgow and re-naming them Townhead Athletic.

Good Scottish/Irish/Welsh players have been going to the English leagues for years, so it's only the next step up for the best of these players to get into European soccer

Further, as the U.K. clubs don't have the finances of the Europeans, the U.K. teams will be composed almost predominately of "over-the-hill" aging European stars, and young Europeans trying to make their name so they can move into the "big leagues".

So..........Taking all of the above into account, why would a U.K. club spend money to support youth teams and scouting sytems in Britain, to find "prospects" who may require years of polishing, when the money can be spent to help purchase an aging European who can step into the first team immediately?

Not a pretty picture for U.K. football in general, and Scottish football in particular.....but there lies the future.

Posted by: jimmyd 30th Sep 2003, 12:54am

For the past number of years ,I have been unable to watch Scottish football.Recently had satellite TV installed.Watched Celts and Motherwell,then Last week.,Gers and Dundee.Found it hard to relate to the teams,there seems to be little passion in the game.All very technical stuff.Some good players ,but to me it was not Celts and Rangers.Will probably take me a wee while to tune into it.The Crowds could hardly be heard ,and it was American commentators{ ESPN}. sad.gif

Wee Mentor,I don't have rellies there ,lived in B'rheid,and worked in Shanks for a few years, back in the late 50/60s.
Hubert have a closer look at the pic Wee Mentor posted,you will note a very young Dixie Deans.

Posted by: hubert 30th Sep 2003, 05:11am

I am afraid not Jimmy, I left a long time ago, and its only recently three years that I have seen the team on a regular basis, I always got the scores but never seen games, worked all over, and games years ago were not televised as like now!
The morra I will see the Lyon game live beamed over by Setanta, at the casino!

Posted by: Melody 30th Sep 2003, 08:27pm

Hail Hail! to my bhoys, hubert jimmyd and all the rest! It's a good night in the old town tonight! Happy faces coming home!

Posted by: hubert 1st Oct 2003, 03:58am

Yes Melody I posted in the CL thread cause this was a CL game, but thats ok Melody, Larsson was great, and Celtic did great after missing a penalty once again.
Saturday its an OF game, first this season should be a doozy, widny surprise me if it was a draw?

Posted by: hubert 1st Oct 2003, 05:42pm

Uefa I think it was unprecedentedly gave a fair sports award to all the Celtic fans for the marvelous behaviour or the thousands that went to Final of the Uefa Cup.
The Scottish national fans are recognized as being well behaved and sporting, but this Celtic award is to me more than a faither in the caps of Celtic and Scottish football fans throughout the world!
I type this with great pride although I dont go to games. Hail Hail!
If anyone wants details of this go to Sky spoirts or the Scottish football, the presentation was just before the Lyon game last night.
Scotland can continue to be proud in regards to football!

Posted by: hubert 4th Oct 2003, 03:09pm

Just got back from the Casino, Rangers 0 Celtic 1, what a game both teams did themselves proud very good football, Celtic defense was immense, and the Rangers goalie Klos was brilliant.
The atmosphere at the Ibrox Stadium appeared to be out of this world.
Unfortunately for Scottish player participation, there were 18 different nationalities on the park maybe one Scot canny mind?
However the performance from both teams fitba wise was superb!
Lindzeh any comments? LoL

Posted by: betty2 4th Oct 2003, 05:09pm

Great game at ibrox the day i applaud both teams rolleyes.gif

Posted by: hubert 11th Oct 2003, 12:12am

Scotlands under 21s beat Lithuania 3-2 Friday, sure hope the big team can follow suit, Saturday 3pm Hampden i think?

Posted by: weementor 5th Jun 2004, 09:47am

Caley fray
ANGRY Inverness Caley Thistle fans have begun an internet petition protesting about the vote excluding their club from the Scottish Premier League. The petition's authority is fatally undermined by numerous signatures from cartoon figures ranging from Bugs Bunny to George W Bush.
Dr Who joins them, pledging: "By the horns of Zanthropay, my two hearts bleed for Inverness Caley! In a bid to put time back on a stable continuum I have consorted with my learned friend, Professor Thoscales, who agrees the following formula is the only remedy – unfortunately, I cannot time-skip and influence the vote as the Tardis is in for its MOT: SPL minus dissenting chairman plus ICT equals fairplay. I must go now, earthlings, as K9 requires walkies."

Posted by: Isobel 5th Jun 2004, 12:21pm

For anyone interested in the ladies soccer, Canada and the US ladies under nineteen have both qualified for the word cup.Pretty good going .They both did very well last time around. Wondered if Scotland or England have any ladies teams.

Posted by: iancameron 5th Jun 2004, 08:50pm

Scotland and England have womens teams, and England will host the UEFA Cup in 2005

Posted by: Isobel 12th Jun 2004, 02:42pm

Well I guess for the next wee while I will be an English fan with my husband. He will be glued to the TV tomorrow for the world cup game. I wish Scotland had made it. Who do you think will be the big winners this time?

Posted by: iancameron 12th Jun 2004, 07:46pm

A good outsider is the Czech Republic, at the moment they are 14/1, I,v got £20 on them, plus £20 for France to beat England 2-1.

Posted by: Isobel 12th Jun 2004, 08:54pm

Good god you come from the same neck of the woods as my inlaws, they are from Exmouth,Devon. Surprised you are not supporting England.That was quite something Greece winning over Portugal.I hate for you to lose your 20 but sorry Ian I must root for the boys. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: hubert 13th Jun 2004, 12:56am

Well I am off to a flying start I picked on another fitba forum, for Portugal to win it!
About the England/France game, may the better team win! biggrin.gif

Posted by: weementor 13th Jun 2004, 11:38am

SPL hatch Euro scheme
Plans to field Scottish sides in a European league have resurfaced in a scheme that would see top SPL teams leave the domestic league at Christmas.
"We're trying to develop a league that would start in January and would include the top two or three from our league," said SPL chairman Lex Gold.
"We would run separate competitions. It would be a split where they would play from here but in another league."
Holland, Belgium, Portugal, Norway and Denmark are said to be interested.
"We are still in there trying to influence Uefa in terms of European competitions," added Gold.
"The teams playing in Europe would still participate in the Scottish Cup and League Cup," continued Gold.
"And at the beginning of the season they would revert to the domestic league and start again.
"Obviously there are complications. We've had good relations with the Dutch and the Belgians but the Dutch league is now doing better than it was and they are slightly less outward looking than they were, though they're still approachable. So there's work to be done there.
"Scandinavia also have set up a separate competition outwith Uefa just now, which makes it more difficult, but Uefa are still interested in this as a form of pilot.
"I always said my variant on the Atlantic League was to have a pilot study based on the northern leagues and Portugal which should be done under the Uefa umbrella."
Whats your views on the latest

Story from BBC SPORT:

Posted by: iancameron 13th Jun 2004, 12:07pm

QUOTE (Isobel @ 12th Jun 2004, 10:11 PM)
Good god you come from the same neck of the woods as my inlaws, they are from Exmouth,Devon. Surprised you are not supporting England.That was quite something Greece winning over Portugal.I hate for you to lose your 20 but sorry Ian I must root for the boys. rolleyes.gif

Im afraid Im a die hard Isobel, I can still remember the home internationals. And in a more serious note, I do not think England have got a good enough team to do any good in this competition, but I do think they will fair very well in the next world cup, when a lot of their younger player will have a bit more experience.

Posted by: Isobel 13th Jun 2004, 04:40pm

Ian you sound like Jim .He is always the optimist, a real die hard fan. He feels the English side would be very lucky to go very far in this competition but he will be glued to the TV. cheering them on.If they dont make it he will still watch all the other games he is just a real sports fan.

Posted by: iancameron 13th Jun 2004, 09:09pm

England had a good 50 minutes of the game then ran out of steam, but all in all a good game, plus I beat the bookie.
On Scottish teams joining a european league I think its a great idea, the more different styles of football, the better for the national team. I would also like to see an under 19s european league.

Posted by: Kaz61 13th Jun 2004, 09:19pm

Way-to-go iancameron 2-1 it was cool.gif

Never seen the game...working

canny wait tae see the highlights

Posted by: Isobel 14th Jun 2004, 02:30am

Ian Im glad you didn't lose your money but I thought England really had it in the bag. Could not believe it two goals in the extra time.

Posted by: Catherine 14th Jun 2004, 02:39am

Oh well..................... laugh.gif

Posted by: iancameron 14th Jun 2004, 07:45am

QUOTE (Isobel @ 14th Jun 2004, 03:47 AM)
Ian Im glad you didn't lose your money but I thought England really had it in the bag. Could not believe it two goals in the extra time.

Yes England did do well Isobel, but thats as good as they can get, Owen had a bad game and Scholes ( who I think is the best player england have got ) ran out of steam. And putting Hesky on was the nail in the coffin, even arbroath would,nt take him for free. I think the group winners will be- Spain,France,Italy and Czech Republic, the runners up- Greece, England, Sweden and Germany.

Posted by: whyteinch 14th Jun 2004, 08:10am

Yes weementor I would give it my support.
It involves the top two teams in the SPL, invariably Rangers and Celtic, going off to form the new league midway through the domestic season along with 12 other teams from Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Portugal and Holland although it is believed the Dutch are cooling on the plan. The rest of the clubs left in the SPL would compete for the domestic championship without the Old Firm for the rest of the season with the winners gaining automatic qualification to the UEFA Cup.

Posted by: Isobel 14th Jun 2004, 12:17pm

Well Ian I guess your right .It was just wishful thinking on my part.

Posted by: hubert 15th Jun 2004, 12:39am

I just came across a warning bulletin on the internet, it said that there is a flood warning alert last night in Scotland, they said this morning that the Scottish people would be pishing themselves after hearing the England/France football score? laugh.gif

Posted by: jimmyd 15th Jun 2004, 10:50pm

See the hooligan element in the English fan base are living up to expectations,causing trouble again.

Posted by: whyteinch 16th Jun 2004, 07:03am

A trendy customer visiting Asda's Govan branch this week impressed all with his T-shirt bearing the proud legend: "Scotland – Unbeaten in Euro 2004."

Posted by: big al 16th Jun 2004, 01:03pm

I think I'd rather that we were in Portugal taking part in Euro 2004 than wearing funny t- shirts because we weren't .....

When you look at some of the stuff we've seen so far Scotland could not have done worse than some of the much vaunted favourites

What about Larsen though - still the tops isn't he?

Posted by: hubert 18th Jun 2004, 04:12pm

I tried to post in the Old Firm thread, but apparently you cant post twice in a row in a thread, so be it?
Anyhoo I watched the Croatia 2 France 2 game on TV yesterday, and saw Rangers new signing Prso score Croatias second goal, it was a gift by a French defender who tried to clear the ball and missed it, I believe Prso was probably more surprised than those watching the game, although he certainly took advantage and thumped it home.
I watched Prso closely during the game and he is a bit clumsy, certainly not fleet of foot, noo am no saying he stumbles aboot, and is fitless, however he is good enough for the SPL, but how he manages to get a game in the Croatian national team, and is playing in the 2004 Euro Nations Cup is beyond me? rolleyes.gif

Posted by: leeninaus 20th Jun 2004, 11:08am

OK, so I may sound like the air head bimbo here ( & I am a rugger person anyway) BUT, what I can't understand is, like years gone by, a lot of the best ENGLISH league players were Scots !! AND there are still a few of them about these days !!!!
Is it that these young soccer players have it too easy ? are they too namby pamby to go the full hog ???
The South American youngsters play with full gusto, as do the African & Eastern European countries... the third world countries though may not enter World Class status, to me, provide an exciting game !! I would love to see, like these countries, Scotland providing kids from impoferished backgrounds, with a true love of Soccer as in days gone by, getting out there and playing not for monitary gains BUT to win for SCOTLAND !!!

Posted by: Isobel 20th Jun 2004, 03:55pm

Oh very well said Leeninaus. wink.gif

Posted by: Melody 24th Jun 2004, 06:35pm

With apologies to Leen....the English have just scored against Portugal......ho hum.....come on the Portugese!!!

Posted by: carmella 24th Jun 2004, 09:50pm

Well the England -v- Portugal game is now over with England out of Euro 2004.

First half England scored very early on, the goal by Owen just after 2 minutes, then in the second half the second goal was delivered by Lampard.

2-1 lead until Portugal equalized. However, it had to go to extra time, then again it had go to penalties England got 5 Portugal got 6.
After 26 minutes teenage striker Wayne Rooney had to be taken off after he broke a bone in his foot.

I thought it was a good game I enjoyed it, have to say. And, well at the end of the day the best team won.

That's footie for you - ya never can tell! ohmy.gif

Posted by: Isobel 25th Jun 2004, 01:38am

Well I thought it was a great game ,quite exciting to watch. To bad Rooney was injured so early in the game. I think that made quite a difference.I thought Becham was just awful,did the same thing against France. However in the end the best team won.My daughters future in-laws are from Portugal so I guess we will be supporting them now.

Posted by: leeninaus 27th Jun 2004, 02:41pm

YAHOO I won $100 cos I bet for Greece... I thought I had seen the last of my $5 but had to do it cos i hate those froggies to pieces !! I am NOT racist BUT the best thing about frogs are the legs... preferably sauted in garlic & grilled !!

Posted by: carmella 28th Jun 2004, 05:30pm

Henrik Larsson.......

Barcelona are stepping up their pursuit of Henrik Larsson, according to the prolific Swedish striker's agent.
Rob Jansen told newspaper Aftonbladet: "There is certainly interest and Henrik is obviously glad and flattered. I am travelling to Spain for a meeting."

Larsson, in fine form for Sweden at Euro 2004, wants to play in Spain.

He denied on Thursday that he had already agreed a two-year deal with Barca, but said: "However, it would be great if it were true."

Larsson is available on a free transfer from Scottish champions Celtic where he played for seven years, scoring 242 goals in 315 appearances.

The 32-year-old has put himself in the shop window after coming out of international retirement to play for Sweden this summer.

He netted three goals in Sweden's three group games, to help the Scandinavians qualify for the last eight.

Barca are expected to offload Dutch forward Patrick Kluivert this summer and need to replace him.

This according to the latest info from the BBC.....

Good Luck to the wee fella.

Posted by: iancameron 28th Jun 2004, 06:11pm

Cant see why Barcelona would want Larssen, he had his best time at celtic, but I would be willing to bet a months wages that if he goes to Barca he wont score many goals, nor will they keep him for too long.

Posted by: hubert 29th Jun 2004, 01:26am

It does appear there is a strong possibility he will sign for Barca, but myself the fact that he is gone from Celtic, it really doesnt matter to me who he signs for, unfortunately it wont be Celtic!
He is world class, and has goals in him, for the upcoming season, in regards to any number of goals in the Spanish league I would be willing to bet his ratio will be as good as any other striker in the Spanish league.
And I will add he is a verygood assist player for others to score, works very hard, is as fit as a fiddle, and for his short stature is great in the air.
Sorry Ian your post didny really say a helluva lot!

Posted by: carmella 29th Jun 2004, 03:07pm

Well Ian only time will tell, let's see what happens. I think he will do well at Barca, or any of the big clubs. I think he will always do his best to score for whichever team he plays for! Good hard worker from the minute he steps onto the pitch.

We shall see, it will be interesting to see where he finally settles, it is my hope that it will be Barcelona.

Posted by: Isobel 2nd Jul 2004, 11:09am

OK guys stay tuned .Big game Sunday Portugal and Greece. May the best team win. Either way there will be dancing and lots of party goers on the streets in Toronto. biggrin.gif

Posted by: jimmyd 2nd Jul 2004, 11:24pm

Who would have thought, at the start of the Comp,this would be the finalists,thats the beauty of the game,the mighty do fall !!!! I fancy Portugal,just on home advantage. biggrin.gif

Posted by: Isobel 3rd Jul 2004, 01:53am

Me to Jimmy. Only because my daughter's future in law's are from Portugal. But between you and I am no really caring . biggrin.gif

Posted by: Marg 7th Jul 2004, 10:54am

here's a couple for you Isobel

Posted by: Isobel 7th Jul 2004, 11:18am


Posted by: hubert 18th Jul 2004, 11:13pm

Since nobody can post twice in a row in a thread I will use this thread instead of the Old Firm one.
I never saw the game but Celtic beat Fulham at Craven Cottage London, 2-0, today Sunday, John Hartson scored the first and Neil Lennon scored from the penalty spot. biggrin.gif

Posted by: carmella 4th Oct 2004, 05:41pm

90 Minutes:

Is a BBC Sports programme which started in August.

It's on Mon-Fri and is a show that discusses, warts and all, all aspects of football.

Great wee programme with interviews etc.

Opinions good and bad.

i believe on the show this evening or tomorrow evening, they have an exclusive interview with Henrik Larsson about life at Barcelona - well he's my all time favourite player, so I'm bound to be listening to this one.

Posted by: jimmyd 5th Oct 2004, 12:54pm

Had a listen today Carmella ,the show is repeated ,a number of times.Was great, to have it on whilst,doing my chores,just like being at home.Friend came in,and was blown away by the Scottish accents.Made me realise ,just how far we have come.Was not so long ago,I was cursing the short wave radio,whilst trying to hear the games.Look at us now ,nae borrer at aw. Thanks for link Carmella. wink.gif

Posted by: carmella 5th Oct 2004, 01:26pm

Aye Jimmy,

Short wave radio, tuning in listening to plays on the Light Programme hehe brings back many memories - radios with condensers in them -

Who would have guessed all those years ago we would be listening to the radio on a computer - blows you away when you think about all of it.

Some of the phone calls to the studio are what get me going. Because some folk get so passionate about the game, they get really carried away with the show's presenters and give them laldy at the same time - passiionate about the game of football.

Some of the calls which are serious calls - are the ones I often find the funniest.

Posted by: jimmyd 5th Oct 2004, 03:33pm

No what you mean Carmella ,hey the presenter Kehrene thingamyjig,where is he from originally?

Posted by: carmella 7th Oct 2004, 12:43pm

Sorry Jimmy, I don't know where he originated from - he's on the sports circuit a lot though, and as you know is one of the presenters of the proggy. Kheredine Idessane is his name.

Here's a wee bit you might like to read - oh you might have done already, but here goes........

Posted by: Nerdabel 9th Oct 2004, 10:43am


Now, there's a question I can answer. I had an Embarrassing Adolescent Crush on Kheredine Idessane quite a few years ago: I was most intrigued by his name, so I wrote to him and asked him where it was from. He said that it was an Arabic name, as his dad is Moroccan. His mum's from Musselburgh. smile.gif

Posted by: carmella 9th Oct 2004, 12:56pm

Well slap ma thighs and cover me all over in maple syrup - now ain't that somethin'?

Hope you got over the wee crush - see we live and learn on here all manner of things discussed! tongue.gif

Well the game has just started Scotland -v- Norway, wonder how well or how badly we shall do!

Only time will tell.

Well for anyone who is interested, I had to edit because I cannot post twice in a row - strange wee rule!

Scotland -v- Norway -Scotland got gubbed at HOME - very bad, so now they're calling for the head of Bertie. I'm listening right now to "Your Call with Jim Traynor" very interesting what everyone who is calling in is saying. Jimmy have a wee listen, first chance you get.

Final Score Scotland 0 - 1 Norway, last I heard. Can or will they sack Bertie before the next game, which I believe is Wednesday?

Posted by: hubert 26th Nov 2004, 02:38am

This week was no bad in Europe for three Scottish teams, sure need some encouragement!
Celtic tied 1-1 at Barcelona, Rangers won 3-0 at Ibrox against an Austrian team, and Hearts beat Basel 2-1 in Switzerland!
Three cheers for the Scots, hip hip hip hooray! Something like that? wink.gif

Posted by: jimmyd 26th Nov 2004, 11:13am

Funny thing Hubert,all the talk is about the Tic and the Gers,Jambos hardly get a mention.Would be nice to see 3 Scots teams in the Comp,after Christmas.

Posted by: whyteinch 9th Mar 2005, 11:27am


By Hugh Keevins

CELTIC supporters are threatening to boycott the Old Firm Legends match for charity if Mo Johnston goes through with the invitation to play in the hoops again at Hampden.

The fans will still donate their ticket money to the event on March 23 which will divide its proceeds to the motor neurone research foundation supported by Celtic legend Jimmy Johnstone, as well as the Davie Cooper fund to set up a centre for children with special needs.

However, the official Celtic Supporters Association's members will turn their back on the National Stadium because of the deep rooted resentment against Johnston, the former Hoops hero who posed in a jersey and said he was returning to the club in May, 1989.

However, Johnston performed the transfer somersault of the century and sign for Graeme Souness' Rangers instead.

Celtic websites buzzed with anger yesterday at the very idea of Johnston wearing the club's jersey.

Some fans even refused to mention his name, even though he played for Celtic 127 times and scored71goals in a three-year spell.

The most frequently used name for him on one fans' website was 'Judas'.

One fan said: 'I wanted to go to Hampden to see Lubo Moravcik again. But if 'He' is going to be soiling a Celtic shirt then I think I'd rather just donate the money directly to the charity.'

Other fans were more straightforward and to the point and one said: 'I think I'd puke at the sight of this person ever soiling a hooped shirt again.'

Another wrote: 'Most fans will have nothing to do with it because of the way he embarrassed Celtic.'

A member of the official Celtic Supporters Association said; 'There is too much history and baggage that goes with Johnston.

'He left Celtic in the lurch in1989 and went off to sign for Rangers. Celtic supporters will always contribute to charity but, in this instance, they will do it in their own way and won't be going to any game to support Johnston.'

Johnston, of course, wasn't the first high-profile player to join both halves of the Old Firm - that was Alfie Conn.

But no player in over a century of Old Firm rivalry has ever been the cause of such scorn and derision.

What's your views on this ?

Posted by: hubert 9th Mar 2005, 04:54pm

I was not in touch with Scottish fitba back then so really dont know the magnitude of it all, certainly saw what keevins is writing about elsewhere, and the feelings are very strong against Mo Johnstone wearing the hoops.
Recently Celtic lost a young player to Man Utd. Miller and a lot of fans were not too happy about that?
Young Miller leaving didnt bother me that much, in fact he hasnt broken into the Man U first team much, and I doubt he will?
I hope the charity aspect of it all isnt hurt by this, in fact it certainly has made it to the fore publicity wise!

Posted by: carmella 9th Mar 2005, 08:02pm

This is the talk of all the celtic sites today - this is a much hated ex player - I don't think I've ever read so many posts about a player where the posters exuded so much venom!

The Police as well as Celtic Management must surely know the attendance of this player at Hampden will cause trouble, and therefore not have him play - surely - I simply cannot see this going ahead.

If it's a charity match bring on The King - none other than Henrik Larsson - not only did he conduct himself well as a man but also as a player on the field during his tenure in Glasgow. There are many, many names who could play in a charity match, I use Henrik as just one.

Posted by: big al 10th Mar 2005, 10:51pm

Wouldn't this be the ideal opportunity for Celtic fans to show the Bears that they really don't care about Mo any more - what difference does it make in this world - absolutely sod all! There are few guys that would have the courage that Mo did to make the move - did he lose anything by doing it - obviously not judging by the reactions...

This is all part of what jack mcconnell is on about - the bigotry and everything else - I supported Celtic for more years than I care to remember these days and Johnstone going to rangers never bothered me - why should it - he wasn't that good anyway - that's all we need to say....

Wonder how we we all feel if MON managed to sign Barry F or ricksen for the Hoops - be interesting to find out ...

Posted by: andypisces1 11th Mar 2005, 12:43am

I believe that soccer is a beautiful game. It is spoiled by some socalled supporters. I watched the last round of the ford golf tournament on sundy, Tiger woods VS phil mickelson. Here it was the southern united states a black vs a white. A perfect set up for some rangers and celtic sort of bigotry. What did we get, we got FANS cheering good shots by both players. This was sport and spectating at its highest level. Move over soccer golf is THE beautiful game, in all ways. Mo johnston you should never have left

Posted by: carmella 11th Mar 2005, 01:30pm

I agree with what you've said Andy - there's a huge difference however, between golf fans and fitba fans - golf fans no matter where you go cheer on a good golfer and often one who is not so good - it's a sheer delight to attend a good golf tournament - I've been to several, all of them right here in Scotland. Troon, Turnberry and also Gleneagles.

Golf is seen as a gentler sport in many ways and most golfers will tell you that on the links they are nice people - ironically some of them are also fitba fans and so too are the fans of golf - also many football players play the game of golf - and during that game, believe me, they don't act as they do on the football pitch, I wonder why this is - some kind of animal instinct hahaha I don't know the answer.

Posted by: leeninaus 11th Mar 2005, 03:03pm

Is it not that golf is a more stable a game carmella ?, you would never get 22 golfers fighting it out on the course together in one pack ! and although the Big name tournaments attract crowds, nothing I am sure numerically like that of a football stadium!
Also,does not golf require a little more brain rather than a lot of brawn ?????

Posted by: whyteinch 24th May 2005, 09:46am

How an Aussie kid changed Scottish football history
By DAVID LEWIS Soccer Writer
May 24, 2005

A LITTLE Aussie battler who is barely heard of in his homeland single-handedly re-shaped Scottish football destiny yesterday.

Scott McDonald's two late goals for modest Motherwell diverted the destination of the Premier League title from Celtic to their hated rivals Rangers and left him shedding tears . . . of sorrow.

In a drama-infused final day to the season, Melbourne-raised Celtic patriot McDonald struck in the 88th and 90th minutes to deny his boyhood idols their fourth crown in five years.

But exultation quickly gave way to dismay for the 21-year-old kid from Dandenong – currently deemed unworthy of a Socceroos call-up by coach Frank Farina – when he confessed: "After it sunk in that my goals had stopped Celtic winning the title and Rangers had won it instead, I felt very emotional.

"I'm a Celtic fan through and through and so is my dad [John], so that was very difficult for me to handle."

In an accent which sounds more Billy Connolly than true blue Aussie, McDonald added: "It's been an incredible season for me, first playing in a Scottish League Cup Final [a 5-1 loss to Rangers], finishing as Motherwell's top scorer and also being voted the club's player of the year.

"And now there's this . . . it's a bit hard to take in."

Celtic needed victory against mid-table Motherwell to finish ahead of sworn enemies Rangers, who kept the pressure on by beating Hibernian 1-0.

With two minutes left on the clock, the team McDonald came close to joining 12 months ago were on course for the championship thanks to English striker Chris Sutton's 29th minute goal.

It was then that the Frodo-sized McDonald – a nuggety 173cm son of Scottish migrants – delivered his lord of the stings.

First with an audacious overhead kick and then a spectacular solo effort.

His goals didn't just send the blue half of Glasgow into ecstasy. They also divided the McDonald clan.

And yesterday his mum Ray, a devoted Rangers fan, was enjoying the bragging rights.

A discard from Farina's 2004 Olympic Games squad and unrecognised at Socceroo level, McDonald captained the Young Socceroos to two world championships and played in the under-17 world championship final against Brazil in Auckland in 1999.

But he appeared to be heading into football's twilight zone after being dumped by premiership fall guys Southampton 17 months ago.

That was before Motherwell's English manager Terry Butcher lowered the ladder of opportunity.

McDonald, who could yet be a late inclusion in Farina's squad for the Confederations Cup in Germany in June, repaid Butcher by finishing with 15 goals in 31 games in the season that was completed yesterday.

And he missed a further eight games through injury.

Now McDonald – who is due back in Melbourne today for a family reunion – wants Farina to acknowledge his existence.

"I think I've showed what I can do and served my apprenticeship," he insists.

"I'm ready to not only be a part of the squad but also to start matches. If Frank Farina wants me he only has to pick up the phone."

Farina cannot afford to dally much longer with Scotland already making overtures for the player with dual nationality.

"They have put the feelers out but my first choice is Australia," McDonald confirms. "Having said that, I don't want to be just a squad member, I want to play for my country."

Aware that his value is about to soar, McDonald's Australian agent Lou Sticca has started the process of renegotiating a new deal for the striker.

Posted by: jimmyd 26th May 2005, 11:07pm

Saw him and his Mum and Dad being interviewed on TV,he has had to tell Farina that he is unavailble for selection to Aussie squad.Has lower back and hamstring injuries.

Posted by: whyteinch 9th Jan 2006, 10:56pm

Clyde (2) 2 Celtic (0) 1

The young Roy Keane would have imagined his Celtic debut many times, and in many ways, but never like this, as a ghost in someone else's romance. Until yesterday, the finest football drama Clyde's home town of Cumbernauld had produced was Gregory's Girl, which was filmed here. This had the more extraordinary ending.

After a humiliation as great as Keane has known on a pitch, his manager, Gordon Strachan, commented that any players absent from Broadwood Stadium suddenly looked a sight better than they did yesterday morning. Keane did not just play, he was the chief attraction.

Celtic supporters had filled two of the three sides of this modest ground, still unfinished more than a decade after its opening, and on the empty bank behind one goal a string of youngsters stood with an Irish tricolour which had Keane's face staring grimly out from its centre. To those for whom Keane's arrival at Parkhead seemed like a prophesy fulfilled, it would have been like waiting years to see Muhammad Ali box, only to watch him knocked cold by a fairground fighter.

Celtic were humbled by the performance as well as the result. Before the match a little boy called Connor Gray, Clyde's mascot for this Scottish Cup tie, was asked to predict the score. To a smattering of laughter, Connor thought it would be 4-0 to Clyde, and since the home side actually put the ball in the net four times - two were disallowed - he was not far wrong.

When Keane chose Celtic ahead of Real Madrid and a smattering of Premiership sides, he would have accepted that standards at a lot of Scottish clubs would have reminded him of his time at Cobh Ramblers. He could not have anticipated that the one he had signed for would be among them.

Analysing the first, scarcely believable half in which Clyde, aside from scoring twice, had one perfectly good goal disallowed for what must have been the slightest of nudges on the day's other debutant, Du Wei, who also gave away a penalty that Artur Boruc turned aside, Strachan was scathing. "In any game of football, if you don't create chances, have any shots or seem unable to pass the ball back to your keeper, then your tactics aren't working. It was not my idea of cup football." He stopped short of admitting to humiliation. "I'm disappointed and saddened but not humiliated."

Du Wei, on loan from China, was mercifully relieved of his duties during the interval and he and Stephen McManus should be grateful that Celtic TV has not yet asked Keane to take up punditry duties.

Celtic could do nothing about Eddie Malone's volley just after Boruc had saved Stephen O'Donnell's penalty, but Keane would have wondered how Craig Bryson, the youngest player on the pitch, was allowed to head home Clyde's opener. Clyde fought themselves to an standstill but there were only seven minutes left when Maciej Zurawski, who replaced the statuesque John Hartson, finally broke through. It was not enough.

At Manchester United, Keane seldom enjoyed visits to the lower reaches of English football and never suffered a debacle quite like this. Upsets like these are rarer in Scotland than in England. Clyde are fourth in the division below Celtic, which to English eyes might suggest United being beaten by Watford. But Watford did not draw 901 people to their last league fixture and they are not called 'The Bully Wee' by their fans. This was a footballing earthquake.

Graham Roberts, who had a playing staff of two when he succeeded Ronald McDonald (no, really) as Clyde manager, conjured comparisons with Berwick's defeat of Rangers in 1967, which had Bill Shankly spluttering: "It's not true, and even if it is I still don't believe it." This would have stung the east end of Glasgow every bit as much as Celtic's defeat by Inverness Caledonian Thistle six years ago that doomed Kenny Dalglish and John Barnes.

Clyde had made £130,000 from the fixture but this was an afternoon to count glory, not money. "These players have shown all the managers who let them go what they can do. What kind of player comes here for £150 a week and does that?" said Roberts, whose time as a player at Ibrox under Graeme Souness would have made yesterday a fraction sweeter. "This is the greatest day of my managerial career, nothing will ever top this."

Match details
Clyde (5-3-2): Cherrie; McGregor, Malone, Higgins, McKeown, Masterton; Bryson (Bouadji 82), O'Donnell, McGowan; Williams (Miller 80), Brighton (Hunter 89). Subs: Jarvie (g), Carbuckle. Goals: Bryson (32), Malone (35). Booked: Miller.
Celtic (4-4-2): Boruc; Telfer, Du Wei (Virgo h-t), McManus, Wallace (McGeady 55); Nakamura, Keane, Lennon, Pearson; Maloney, Hartson (Zurawski 70). Goal: Zurawski (83). Booked: McManus. Subs: Marshall (g), Lawson.
Referee: K Clark.

Posted by: jimmyd 10th Jan 2006, 03:58am

Read this article on the News Now site Whyteinch , not sure what your intent is in posting it , if it is to rub it in to Tic fans ,then why not come out and say so.I doubt you will ever see Celtic play that bad again,or for that matter Clyde play that well , thats fitba and that is what makes it a great game. Too bad Tic are out of cup, but life goes on eh!! biggrin.gif

Posted by: whyteinch 10th Jan 2006, 10:24am

Sorry Jimmyd .... It is certainly not my intention to as you put it...To rub it into the Celtic fans.

I'm sure it was 'Weementors' thoughts when he instigated this topic ... "The Beautiful Game" that it might be used to archive games that would in time have some historical relevance to Scotlands beauiful game.

Posted by: jimmyd 10th Jan 2006, 01:28pm

Point taken Whiteyinch , regardless it is still the" Beautiful Game " wink.gif

Posted by: hubert 3rd Mar 2006, 02:54pm

I wanted to put this post in the Scotland big team thread, but cant post twice?
Anyhoo here goes, I was hoping Walter Smith could get things going for the big team and prior to the last 3-1 game Switzerland won against us at Hampden he was doing no bad!
Well I am beginning to fear the worst again, Walter doesnt have much to pick from, and there is the problem of pull outs through injury, but why continue to play Barry Ferguson who claims to be perpetually injured, and the likes of Christian Dailly and Quashie, both with never be any bloody good, been saying this for seasons now about these players?

Posted by: Dave Grieve 8th Sep 2012, 07:39am

Didn't know where to post this so this is as good a topic as any.

SA played Brazil last night in Sao Paulo and lost 1.0 to a late penalty, the talking point this morning was not the penalty or even the game but the fact that the referee used some kind of spray to mark out the 10 yard line that the players had to stand behind for the free kick to be taken.
It made the refs job a lot easier.

The line on the field would disapear after a few minutes.

Anybody seen this before?

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 8th Sep 2012, 08:12am

QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 8th Sep 2012, 08:54am) *
Didn't know where to post this so this is as good a topic as any ...

Dave, I heard somewhere that any member who posts on a topic which has laid dormant for more than 6 years get his name put in a hat in a yearly draw for a free "I Love Glasgow" T shirt. tongue.gif
That referee should be sent one anyway for using the heid. biggrin.gif

Posted by: ashfield 8th Sep 2012, 08:24am

QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 8th Sep 2012, 10:27am) *
Dave, I heard somewhere that any member who posts on a topic which has laid dormant for more than 6 years get his name put in a hat in a yearly draw for a free "I Love Glasgow" T shirt. tongue.gif

That's the kinda rumour that starts riots tongue.gif

Posted by: Dave Grieve 8th Sep 2012, 08:27am

QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 8th Sep 2012, 10:27am) *
Dave, I heard somewhere that any member who posts on a topic which has laid dormant for more than 6 years get his name put in a hat in a yearly draw for a free "I Love Glasgow" T shirt. tongue.gif
That referee should be sent one anyway for using the heid. biggrin.gif

Nice one kid as soon as the T shirt arrives i'le send your beer token thumbup.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 8th Sep 2012, 08:41am

QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 8th Sep 2012, 08:54am) *
Didn't know where to post this so this is as good a topic as any.

SA played Brazil last night in Sao Paulo and lost 1.0 to a late penalty, the talking point this morning was not the penalty or even the game but the fact that the referee used some kind of spray to mark out the 10 yard line that the players had to stand behind for the free kick to be taken.
It made the refs job a lot easier.

The line on the field would disapear after a few minutes.

Anybody seen this before?

I haven't seen it, but i heard the commentators on the The Rangers v Elgin City match discussing it last weekend, it seems to be a Brazilian experiment, i would like to see it applied here.

Posted by: tombro 9th Sep 2012, 10:10am

But the ten yard line of a six foot ref would be much farther from the scene than that of a four foot ref, wouldn't it ?

Tombro huh.gif huh.gif

Posted by: Dylan 9th Sep 2012, 10:59am

Don't follow your logic Tombro.

10 yards is 10 yards ?

Posted by: wee davy 9th Sep 2012, 11:11am

Unless he has a bliddy big tape measure, and giganormous compass, the only way he can mark it out, is by using his stride length.

THEE I don't think its right your suggestion - especially when we still dont even know who posted the 400k post yet?!

Posted by: Dylan 9th Sep 2012, 05:38pm

"Unless he has a bliddy big tape measure, and giganormous compass, the only way he can mark it out, is by using his stride length"

Naw !!!!!.

The rules say 10 yards and 10 yards is 10 yards not 10 paces of a midget ?

Conclusion-- If someone cannot pace out ten yards then by defination they cannot become a Ref. smarty pants tongue.gif .

Posted by: JAGZ1876 9th Sep 2012, 07:53pm

Tom (Tiny) Wharton could pace 10 yards in about five strides smile.gif

Posted by: hubert 26th Oct 2012, 07:30pm

Motherwell 0 Hibs 1.
Great goal I think the guy was Wotherspoon, but Motherwell were robbed, the ball was well over the line before the Hibs goalie played it out with his hand.
Score should be 1-1, and Motherwell have a wee edge play wise, wont be surprise if Motherwell tie it up in the second half.

Posted by: hubert 26th Oct 2012, 08:40pm

Motherwll 0 Hibs 4. Final
Almost looks like Motherwell didnae come oot at halftime and I widnae blame them, it sure looked cauld in Scotland.
However they got a penalty to score and Higdon missed it.
Leigh Griffiths of Hibs got two penalties and scored both, he looks no a bad player!

Posted by: taurus 26th Oct 2012, 09:14pm

fantastic watching the world cup qualifier with Sweden and Germany,Sweden getting well and truly gubbed,1 nil,suddenly they picked it up got 3,and in the dying seconds scored to make it a 4 all draw,you couldn`t write it.

Posted by: Dave Grieve 27th Mar 2016, 01:11pm

Dont referees punish obstruction any more?
I am watching Mozambique V Ghana and a Mozambican defender blatantly obstruct a Ghana forward and in doing it falls in front of the forward.
Result a foul given against the forward?

Posted by: Talisman 28th Mar 2016, 04:56am

QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 27th Mar 2016, 01:19pm) *
Dont referees punish obstruction any more?
I am watching Mozambique V Ghana and a Mozambican defender blatantly obstruct a Ghana forward and in doing it falls in front of the forward.
Result a foul given against the forward?

Well it is the beautiful game of multi millionaire African corruptors and their paymasters from Europe!

How can you ever watch a game played with pass around millions and know you are watching anything approaching honesty. Was probably the "Hand of God" making his contribution.